One of the best comments I heard on the forums this week is that the image of the glass ballerina falling at the beginning and Jae Lee falling to his death at the end were like “imagery bookends” — both destroyed by Sun’s carelessness. I think the other symbolism of the glass ballerina is that it is shattered, like our perceptions of who Sun is: clear, innocent, delicate. Sun shot Colleen (Other woman) despite her taunting that she didn’t have it in her (and good for her!), and she has shown that she can lie for self-preservation or for love. Is she capable of more? In one of the official podcasts from last season, writers Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse said they enjoyed building up characters, and then tearing down our illusions of who we thought they were, just when we’d gotten to know them. Flawed heroes are sometimes the most interesting, and I think we might be in for some cool twists this season.
My other question from this episode was something I’m a little undecided on myself. Was Jae Lee’s death suicide (as it was ruled), or was he murdered because Jin couldn’t finish the job? What exactly is Mr. Paik’s twisted game?
-Cecilia
I’m not sure about Jae’s death either. Maybe Sun pushed him. Did she take the necklace after her father had confronted them in the hotel? If she did, I’d say it was her since Jae had the necklace when he died. I’m just reaching here though.. Jae probably died of a broken heart.
I think if it was suicide, they woudl have shown him jump. I am sure another Jin/Sun flashback will show what really happened. Much like when Jin beat the man so that his partner would not kill him.
Sun seemed VERY interested in what Jin was up to that night, asking him if he was going to “deliver the message”. My thought at the time was that she intended to warn Jae. His reaction when he saw Jin coming at him was a little odd. He didn’t act surprised, and I think (trying to jog the memory here) he said, “Wait!”. That seems like an odd thing to say. Seems like my reaction would be more along the lines of “What the…”
Maybe Sun was already there. Maybe he WAS warned. Then after Jin leaves the room and goes back to his car she comes out of the closet and informs Jae that she is not going to America with him and he jumps/is pushed.
The theory has been put out there that eveyone on the island has killed someone (or feels responsible for someone’s death – a la Hurley and the falling deck) and that is why they are there. So now we know who Sun has killed.
And now for the REALLY out-there theory (I probably don’t even believe it myself but here goes). What if Sun was asked to seduce Jae by her father for the purpose of espionage? We just found out that Sun is not the innocent little creature we had thought. What if it goes much deeper than that? Sun’s father said at Jae’s funeral that he did “business with the boy’s father”. What if Sun was actually lying to Jae the whole time? And is actually in love with Jin and always was? And the baby actually IS Jin’s because she knew she had protected herself when she was with Jae?
to reiterate cecilia’s point, whats interesting about these first two episodes is that we’re learning that the seemingly “noble” characters have darker pasts. In this past episode we learn that Sun has the ability to lie, and she has it within her capabilities to kill someone. In the season premiere, we learn that Jack has previously become so obsessed that he loses grip with reality. Characters that viewers previously held on a pedastle are now “fallen.” Wonder if this will be a flashback theme for the season…
There’s no way that Sun was there before Jin got to Jae. Remember, before Jin goes to (unsuccessfully) kill Jae, him and Sun get into an argument about Sun’s father around the dinner table. Jin left in a fit of rage and the next scene started where he was waiting for Jae. In my estimation, there’s no way or reson to believe that Sun was there before Jin to warn Jae.
[quote comment="7715"]There’s no way that Sun was there before Jin got to Jae. Remember, before Jin goes to (unsuccessfully) kill Jae, him and Sun get into an argument about Sun’s father around the dinner table. Jin left in a fit of rage and the next scene started where he was waiting for Jae. In my estimation, there’s no way or reson to believe that Sun was there before Jin to warn Jae.[/quote]
I agree that its highly unlikely that Sun could’ve gotten to Jae before Jin did, but I refuse to rule out any possibilities when watching or disucssing LOST. We don’t really have any comprehension of how much time passed between when Jin stormed away from the dinner table and when he met Jae at his apartment.
Damon and Carlton sure do tear down illusion of who we all think the characters are. It will be intresting to see if the ever so faithfully loyal Jack will give in to Ben. Im so glad Lost just keeps getting better and better im sure we are all in for a hell of a season.
Hrmm but Jin was waiting for Jae to come home/to his hotel which ever it was. I think Jack may end up actually working with the others, im sure his skills may be required somehow.
Off topic now, the thing that struck me most in this episode was how Ben was able to so easily make Jack laugh and doubt that the Red Sox won. He knew he’d not believe him and have ready the footage of the Red Sox and not the footage of Reeve’s funeral or the footage of Bush being re-elected.
Also its about time we saw Sawyer using his skills a little more. I think Sawyer will prove quite difficult for the likes of Ben at least. A good conman can plan for many eventualities.
from The Boston Globe…talking about the Red Sox scene in Lost…
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2006/10/13/giving_themselves_an_out/
Well I think that guy jumped and killed himself. I think the point of it was after he jumped- Jin noticed the necklace. I think he knows what his wife is capable of. When I watched it- my words to my husband were- “well now we know why he is so jealous all the time.” I think he knows what she did and that is how he knows when she is lying. I know he says he understands English well- but he was looking at her alot and noticeing her face and she had a look that she was keeping something.
I agree with everyone, especially with the comments about how we are starting to see completely different sides of the more noble characters, but to be real, when Sun shot Colleen it made me love her character even more. When LOST first started I thought Sun was helpless and I feared for her life the entire first season until it was revealed that she spoke English(my favorite episode of season one) But I feel like her bold move on this last episode is really showing how much the island is helping her. She has been able to show Jin how powerful of a woman she is and the capabilities within her. And when she shot Colleen, Sun was letting the Others know that no matter how much they think they know about the Survivors that they are still capable of challenging those beliefs and are not as easily manipulated as the Others may believe. But there is one thing that’s bothering me. I cannot stand the Others. I’ve really been trying to understand how they are “the good guys” but I fail to see good in any of their actions. If strangers fell on top of my house I would have been a bit more straight forward with them if I would later want them to trust me. And it really pisses me off with how they interrogate the Survivors especially after all they have been through. If the others wanted answers they should have been nicer to the survivors from the jump. And in addition I don’t think that the others care much about one another. The Survivors have killed a couple of Others and we have yet to see Others grieve. Think about Ben’s reaction when Jack nearly drowned himself and Juliet. Ben slammed the door to save himself, and at the end Juliet was okay with it? I don’t understand those people. So I guess I’m pro-Survivors. Any rebuttals?
well…i agree with.. whoever said sun pushed him out the window. after seeing that she lied to her dad, to jin, and to whoever else, shes not afraid to do anything else wrong. but on the island, she tries to be a goody-goody to hide her dark side, i dont know, just a thought
[quote comment="7709"]
And now for the REALLY out-there theory (I probably don’t even believe it myself but here goes). What if Sun was asked to seduce Jae by her father for the purpose of espionage? We just found out that Sun is not the innocent little creature we had thought. What if it goes much deeper than that? Sun’s father said at Jae’s funeral that he did “business with the boy’s father”. What if Sun was actually lying to Jae the whole time? And is actually in love with Jin and always was? And the baby actually IS Jin’s because she knew she had protected herself when she was with Jae?[/quote]
This is very highly unlikely because remember, it wasn’t known that she was continuing a relationship with Jae. She kept up this relationship in order to improve her english so she could run away from her father and Jin. If her father created this affair for her, he would not have approved of her learning English.
[quote comment="7744"]But there is one thing that’s bothering me. I cannot stand the Others. I’ve really been trying to understand how they are “the good guys” but I fail to see good in any of their actions. If strangers fell on top of my house I would have been a bit more straight forward with them if I would later want them to trust me. And it really pisses me off with how they interrogate the Survivors especially after all they have been through. If the others wanted answers they should have been nicer to the survivors from the jump. And in addition I don’t think that the others care much about one another. The Survivors have killed a couple of Others and we have yet to see Others grieve. Think about Ben’s reaction when Jack nearly drowned himself and Juliet. Ben slammed the door to save himself, and at the end Juliet was okay with it? I don’t understand those people. So I guess I’m pro-Survivors. Any rebuttals?[/quote]
Well, Hitler and Mussolini probably saw themselves as “the good guys” too. As does Bin Laden and his buddies.
It’s just a matter of perspective. Just because The Others are convinced that what they are doing is good, that doesn’t mean that we will agree with their view of things.
What exactly is Mr. Paik’s twisted game?
Hell who knows,but I bet yea once he gets that manical left eye all worked up he comes up with a few dewsie plans.
Also the person in charge of casting this show needs an Emmie,or two.
Great topic! I thought from the beginning that Mr. Paik suspected Jin would not kill Jae and sent someone else to finish the job. Notice that Jae landed on the car face up. If he jumped wouldn’t he have landed face down? Sun never took the pearls from Jae as she could not wear them in front of her husband, remember? I loved the surprise (shock) of learning what Sun is capable of. And here is another perspective… Sun’s father is really, really scary so perhaps her lying about the ballerina at the expense of the maid, was her way of protecting herself from physical harm. Can you imagine having that guy as your Dad? We also know that Sun had a soft spot for Jae even before she met Jin. I am guessing the months studying english with someone she has always cared for while living with a mostly absent and ill-tempered husband finally caught her with her guard down. (Although we do not know why she took up studying with Jae in the first place.) And can you imagine being treated like a second class citizen all the time? That would certainly take a toll. Being a woman, I cannot tolerate it for 10 minutes! Perhaps the scene we saw was the first time Sun actually made it into Jae’s bed ….then she had second thoughts (remember she says “I can’t”)….., but not before the damage was done…. Or perhaps she is answering “I can’t” to a different question and they have actually been intimate before. When Daddy arrives Sun’s self-preservation mode kicks in and she takes care of herself at Jae’s expense, based on old habits. (Old habits involving Dad – - Can you say Locke and Jack?) And what if Sun had fought her father for a chance to be with Jae — would Jae have been saved? Or would they both be dead? One thing Jae said that implied intimacy was that he did not want to SHARE her anymore. Did Jae know that Jin was Sun’s husband? And why DID Jae say “wait” to Jin before they entered his room? And the last question – Why did Sun tell Jin the truth about his inability to conceive rather than letting him think that she was the one who was healed by a mircale on the island when she found out she was pregnant?
Jae knew Jin was Sun’s husband why else would a man be a man coming at him all pissed off. The guy thought he knew about Jae and Sun sleeping together. Anyone in that position would imedeatly think ‘Oh shit thats her fella he’s here to kick my head in.’
But.. the question is why did he jump? It doesnt make sence im pretty sure the majority of people would of fled after that and not jumped. Piak would of prolly sent another errand boy to finnish the job. I dont think Sun intended on shooting the situation scared her and when she heard a noise she shot accidently. Note her expression after shooting, she also would of shot the guy peering inside the yacht too. So im guessing she wasnt capable of killing anyone before this. She is however capable of diseving Jin.
A few more thoughts:
Jae lived on the 2nd floor of the building, as you can see when Jin steps off the elevator. However, the sound of him falling before he hits the car lasts longer than one would expect for a merely 30-40 foot drop.
Jae’s apartment # is 1516…of course. Though 2342 would’ve been smarter, because why would a second floor apartment start with the number 1?
At Jae’s funeral, Mr. Paik said: “I’m told he jumped from a balcony. He must have felt great shame.”
One thing that I haven’t really seen mentioned is that in asian cultures, suicide is often the most admirable way to die in certain situations. Granted, it’s not like Jae was dying for his country, or some other admirable situation, but to clear his family name by killing himself certainly doesn’t seem like a stretch to me.
Urm…. well, a few minor things. Not really sure about the face up/face down being clues necessarily, since the body could have turned in the air.
And on the last point about suicide & Asian cultures, not really sure that is a generalization that could be made. I think the reference is to sepukku or harakiri, an ancient Japanese tradition for ritual suicide due to dishonor (also significant during WWII), but these societies have changed significantly in modern times. Many modern Koreans are Christian, and thus, there’s stigma attached to suicide from that angle, so there’s a conflict. Yes, shame plays a role (especially in Asian culture, where “saving face” is of great importance to this day), and maybe there is more of a prevelance of emotional repression in that culture, but I guess I’m just saying it’s a complex issue.
I think it was a suicide because he was holding the pearl necklace, as if to say, if I can’t be with her, I don’t want to live anymore.
On the whole “Jae lived on the 2nd floor of the building, as you can see when Jin steps off the elevator. However, the sound of him falling before he hits the car lasts longer than one would expect for a merely 30-40 foot drop.” thing, the #2 on the side of the elevator is just the Elevator #, not the floor #. The floor number would have been 15 or 14 if they do not count the 13th floor as the do here in the U.S. (Room #1516).
Since you are comparing Jae and the glass ballerina as “imagery bookendsâ€, my initial thought was how Sun made the maide take the “Fall” for her glass ballerina “Sin”, did she give up Jae for her other sin?