The Shape of Things to Come

Ben - Lost - Season 4

Lost is back in a major way tonight – death, destruction and mayhem have all been rumored and predicted. The title itself gives reference to a book by H.G. Wells that speculates on future events and the nature of war.

Spoiler Warning

ABC’s Official Show Description

“Locke’s camp comes under attack, and Jack tries to discover the identity of a body that has washed ashore.”

The episode will be Ben-centric, including what is supposed to be an awesome flash forward. I am interested to see if we find out what happened to Rousseau and obviously, who washes ashore. There are a ton of other questions to be answered since the last EP (like always), so hopefully these last 6 weeks will deliver!

Episode Preview

Some sneak peeks: Sneak Peek 1 | Sneak Peek 2 | Sneak Peek 3 | Sneak Peek 4

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676 Responses to The Shape of Things to Come

  1. Jacque says:

    Wow i’m the first yeah.
    Can’t wait till tonight

  2. Katie says:

    Woo-who! I have my sushi and mango mai tais ready to go!

  3. Hammer says:

    I know one thing, if Sawyer yells at you to “get back inside”…it’s bad luck (3 for 3). :)

  4. Angel says:

    I cant wait for tonight! I hope Claire doesnt die tonight…and I wonder who exactly is going to do the attacking???

  5. Sawyer's Evil Twin says:

    Get back inside!!

    Just testing.

  6. skweez says:

    Hello everyone… Just wanted to say that I won’t be blogging/chatting with you until the end of the season. I’ve waited this long for Lost to come back, so I’m gonna try to see if I can hold out until 5/29 to watch all of the final 5 hours, oops, 6 hours of programming. If you see me back here before then, then you know I would have failed and will readily sign up for the next LAA meeting……….

  7. DocH says:

    “Jack trying to I.D. a body that washed ashore”…

    One thing has bugged me since Season One. In S1E5 White Rabbit – A passenger drowns – “Joanna Miller”. Charlie can’t help her. Boone fails. Jack swims to help her and saves Boone instead, having to let Joanna drown.

    We never heard anything after that about Joanna, except when they creamated her photo in the bonfire (I think). I wonder if its’ her that finally washes ashore tonight. She’d have been in the water about three months by now, but she was blonde and pretty (like Jack likes) when she went in.

    Otherwise, we have Greta and Bonnie from the Looking Glass, and Regina from the freighter, still to be accounted for after their adventures in Davy Jones’ locker. (aarrggh).

    All speculation on my part – as I remain Spoiler Free and a Preview Virgin. The Joanna drowning just happens to be way up on my LOST list of per peeves.

  8. Sawyer's Evil Twin says:

    All speculation on my part – as I remain Spoiler Free and a Preview Virgin. The Joanna drowning just happens to be way up on my LOST list of per peeves.[/quote]
    _____________________________________________

    Those are a few people that I was thinking it could be also Doc. Can’t wait for tonight. One question: Is a ‘per peeve’ a feline relative of a ‘pet peeve’? Sorry, couldn’t help myself. ; )

  9. tony says:

    The Shape of Things to Come just makes me think of Refused’s excellent album The Shape of Punk to Come.

  10. Missy says:

    [quote comment="213797"]“Jack trying to I.D. a body that washed ashore”…

    One thing has bugged me since Season One. In S1E5 White Rabbit – A passenger drowns – “Joanna Miller”. Charlie can’t help her. Boone fails. Jack swims to help her and saves Boone instead, having to let Joanna drown.

    We never heard anything after that about Joanna, except when they creamated her photo in the bonfire (I think). I wonder if its’ her that finally washes ashore tonight. She’d have been in the water about three months by now, but she was blonde and pretty (like Jack likes) when she went in.

    Otherwise, we have Greta and Bonnie from the Looking Glass, and Regina from the freighter, still to be accounted for after their adventures in Davy Jones’ locker. (aarrggh).

    All speculation on my part – as I remain Spoiler Free and a Preview Virgin. The Joanna drowning just happens to be way up on my LOST list of per peeves.[/quote]
    ___
    Maybe it’s Charlie, or Patchy, or maybe Jack is pulling himself out of the water! Wouldn’t that be wild?!? I’m just kidding. I’m so slap happy over three hours of fresh TV. I don’t even know what I’m saying.

    PS – Think they tell us who’s in the coffin? HAHA – totally kidding!

  11. DocH says:

    [quote comment="213819"]
    One question: Is a ‘per peeve’ a feline relative of a ‘pet peeve’? Sorry, couldn’t help myself. ; )
    [/quote]
    No… that’s a typo. I have a big fat band-aid on the end of my left middle finger where they stitched the tip back on a few weeks ago.
    (I like the the Purr Peeve idea – my dog, Vincent, decidely does not.)

  12. lost4ever says:

    The title is very intriguing. Not only is it a song by the greatest song writer ever, IMO, Chris Cornell; more importantly, it was a book written by HG wells back in the 30’s.

    In this book he foreshadowed what was gonna happen in WWII. Cities being detroyed from airstrikes. He beleived that the war would last into the 1960’s, being ended by a plague that almost destorys civilization. He also beleived that the solution to mankinds problems was a “world state”, being run by a dictatorship. This dictatorship promotes science, enforces basic English as a global language, and gets rid of religion. When this dictatorship needs to get rid of political opponents, it gives them a chance to take a poison tablet in the envronment of their choice.

  13. Michael says:

    Something bad is gonna happen for everyone and its gonna be claires fault. If you believe the one black aone white eye Locke!

    Has Jack ever seen Patchy, right?

  14. lost4ever says:

    I like the Joanna theory, but after 3 months in the water she would have to be pretty raw by now and almost unrecognizable (DHARMA shark food). I also like maybe Charlie. I think Regina sunk like a stone with all the chains she had on.
    But what about Christian? His body was not in the coffin.

  15. DocH says:

    Intuitively I think that they have never met, but, great point about Jack NEVER seeing Mikhail. I can’t think when, if ever, they have crossed paths, but, I will research that. I think I excluded Mikhail because someone still in Camp Jack has seen Mikhail before (Jin?), and would be able to tell us if the washed-up carcass was the Mad Russian. Missing one hand, may = Mikhail.

    The island seems to always return what doesn’t make it out on the correct “heading”. Maybe the washed ashore body never caught the correct current. Maybe Dharma Sharks are kosher, or corn-fed. If it doesn’t have a Dharma label (or blessed by Jacob), they avoid consuming it. [;^)

    [sorry if I offended, that last joke may have been out-of-line.]

    Des has seen Greta & Bonnie before, but is on the freighter now. The girls were still inside the Looking Glass when Des escaped, so they are likely still there. Regina jumped ship outside of the island ‘bubble’ not too long ago (40 miles away) and probably could not drift to the island so quickly, even if she rotted away from her chains, and made it through the bubble.

    That’s why I went for my “pet peeve” Joanna Miller. Her whole sequence seemed disjointed. I have always hoped that we’d get an endstory/backstory on her. It seemed out of place, but I just discounted it over the years as a “Charlie doesn’t swim well – Boone is ineffective – Jack can’t save everybody” lesson learned.

  16. lost4ever says:

    What about Inman? Whatever happened to him? Is he still baking om the island rock where Des hit him on the day of the crash?

  17. sector7 says:

    Are ya ready kids? Aye Aye Captain! I can’t hear yoooouuuu. Aye Aye Captain!!!

    Wouldn’t Regina’s chains be drawn to the magnetic island?

  18. DocH says:

    I checked. I can not find any transcript where Jack and Mikhail are in visual/verbal range of one another, and we all know how NO ONE tells anyone else what is going on, on the island.

    Juliet, along w/ Jin, could ID Mikhail, at Camp Jack. Hurley, Des, John, Kate, Ben are at the Barracks, and not with Jack. Bea, Tom, Bonnie, Greta, Naomi and Charlie are dead and can’t ID Mikhail. Des and Sayid are off-island, Karl & Danielle are indisposed, Alex is ‘busy’ and Alpert is heading for the Temple – so they can’t ID Mikhail.

    I’m sticking w/ Joanna Miller (for now).

  19. lost4ever says:

    It could be someone from the freighter, Brandon or Minkowski. What did they do on the freighter with their bodies? Maybe Regina, Sector 7, the island drawing the chains toward it. Or what if someone else on the freighter is discovered to be working for Ben and they throw him overboard.

  20. DocH says:

    Normally, chains like we saw on Regina are not magnetic. If they are they are not very magnetic at all… AND… not all magnetics attract – half the time they repel. She could be pushed away too. Personally, I think this (dead body) will be the least discussed topic 24 hours from now here at LostBlog. That’s why I brought it up so early.

  21. Angel says:

    So the body…..I don’t think its Charlie or Patchy because I don’t think their bodies are still…..out there because of the explosion. I don’t think its Regina because I think her body is in the bottom of the ocean. I think it has to be someone who died recently…maybe out at sea??? I think its gonna be someone from the freighter but not Des and obviously not Sayid

  22. lost chicka says:

    what if it’s collen (is that right?). she’s the one who they put out to sea and all the others were wearing white bcuz jack couldn’t save her. i’ve had this wierd feeling tho it’s gonna be sarah (jack’s ex wife).

  23. omar says:

    hey what up losties, im back after many weeks… Lost is Back Tonight and im ready, got all the guns loaded, and the doors barricated… GET BACK INSIDE….

  24. omar says:

    man if claire dies tonight, ill give her a job in a heartbeat…she so sweet n sexy…

  25. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213755"]Get back inside!!

    Just testing.[/quote]
    Are you okay? LOL

  26. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213838"]No… that’s a typo. I have a big fat band-aid on the end of my left middle finger where they stitched the tip back on a few weeks ago.
    [/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Gotta ask. Knife wound or attack?

  27. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213893"]Normally, chains like we saw on Regina are not magnetic. If they are they are not very magnetic at all… AND… not all magnetics attract – half the time they repel. She could be pushed away too. Personally, I think this (dead body) will be the least discussed topic 24 hours from now here at LostBlog. That’s why I brought it up so early.[/quote]
    It’s not Regina IMO(in the preview, the dead person is wearing white, Regina was in a dark clothes when she jumped), but THIS magnet does attract per the key around Jack’s neck and all the crap that flew at the wall when the hatch blew.

  28. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213906"]hey what up losties, im back after many weeks… Lost is Back Tonight and im ready, got all the guns loaded, and the doors barricated… GET BACK INSIDE….[/quote]
    Welcom back…if you haven’t been shot. :)

  29. i'dgetloswithsawyer says:

    What ever happened to Locke’s dad’s body? I remember him carrying it to him to Ben’s traveling camp, but not sure what happened after it. Could his body be the one washed ashore? Hope Nikki & Paulo’s remains stayed buried and don’t return….

  30. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213885"]Are ya ready kids? Aye Aye Captain! I can’t hear yoooouuuu. Aye Aye Captain!!!

    Wouldn’t Regina’s chains be drawn to the magnetic island?[/quote]
    Oohhhh who lives in a pineapple under the sea?
    DHARMA shark square pants.

    We haven’t seen him in a while.

  31. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213921"]What ever happened to Locke’s dad’s body? I remember him carrying it to him to Ben’s traveling camp, but not sure what happened after it. Could his body be the one washed ashore? Hope Nikki & Paulo’s remains stayed buried and don’t return….[/quote]
    He was wrapped in a dark cloth. Washed up body wearing white.

  32. Trixanna says:

    I just watched all 4 of the “Sneak Peeks” and I can’t wait to watch the show in a half hour to tie it all together! My guess for the body that washes ashore is Charlie. Wouldn’t that be ultra dramatic???

    As Hurley would say, “Wo Dude!”

  33. JamieGirl says:

    Phew, only 32 posts so far. I was figuring I’d login and see 300 posts and only have 1/2 hr to catch up. Looking fwd to tonight!

  34. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213765"]Hello everyone… Just wanted to say that I won’t be blogging/chatting with you until the end of the season. I’ve waited this long for Lost to come back, so I’m gonna try to see if I can hold out until 5/29 to watch all of the final 5 hours, oops, 6 hours of programming. If you see me back here before then, then you know I would have failed and will readily sign up for the next LAA meeting……….[/quote]
    Meetings are one hour before air time (eastern)…see you there. :)

  35. imalostfreak says:

    i can not wait until 15 minutes from now. i just want to jump out of my skin. lost always makes me happy until the last half hour before it comes on and then i start to go crazy.

  36. Angel says:

    The body was wearing white…the only thing I could think of is the doctor on the freighter. Everytime I saw him, he was wearing a white coat

  37. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213929"]The body was wearing white…the only thing I could think of is the doctor on the freighter. Everytime I saw him, he was wearing a white coat[/quote]That my guess…wink, wink.

  38. DocH says:

    [quote comment="213916"]
    It’s not Regina IMO (in the preview, the dead person is wearing white, Regina was in a dark clothes when she jumped),
    [/quote]
    Again – preview virgin here – never saw the wearing white thing…
    game time in three minutes!

  39. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213932"][quote comment="213916"]
    It’s not Regina IMO (in the preview, the dead person is wearing white, Regina was in a dark clothes when she jumped),
    [/quote]
    Again – preview virgin here – never saw the wearing white thing…
    game time in three minutes![/quote]
    That’s cool, but you are chatting on the preview thread. :)

    Finger a doctor injury or Purple Heart getter?

  40. Hammer says:

    Siberia…nice touch. Australia is the KEY TO THE GAME?

  41. Hammer says:

    Why is Ben wearing Halowax’s jacket?

  42. PJSander says:

    Too many FREEKIN commercials!!!!

  43. Michael says:

    [quote comment="213937"]Too many FREEKIN commercials!!!![/quote]
    +_+_+_+_+_

    OMG to many already!

  44. Hammer says:

    HO-LY…Sh&%!!!!

    Manipulator met his match.

  45. Johhny_Lost says:

    OMG! Im in utter shock Im actually shaking

  46. Hammer says:

    So Ben controls Smokey!!!

  47. Bruno says:

    too much coming in too fast. It will take days to analyse the consequence of what we are seeing

  48. Johhny_Lost says:

    lol was anyone else cheering on smokey?!?!?!?!

  49. PJSander says:

    too
    much
    information

    information
    overload

    brain
    frying

    ACK!

  50. Michael says:

    Ben went into the tunnel.

  51. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213943"]too much coming in too fast. It will take days to analyse the consequence of what we are seeing[/quote]
    I know, this so great. Ben gets humanized, do we dare believe he is on the good side now?

    Did Ben go get Smokey/Whisperers to protect the island?

  52. Michael says:

    Ben going after Penny. Desmond wont like that.

  53. jorge says:

    Stupid episode

  54. PJSander says:

    There were WAY too many commercials, but on a positive note, NONE of them were for Eli Stone!

    : ) P

  55. RGS says:

    [quote comment="213947"][quote comment="213943"]too much coming in too fast. It will take days to analyse the consequence of what we are seeing[/quote]
    I know, this so great. Ben gets humanized, do we dare believe he is on the good side now?

    Did Ben go get Smokey/Whisperers to protect the island?[/quote]

    It still looks like Ben is on the bad guys side to me. Yes this stuff will take days to go over. I will return later.

  56. Hammer says:

    Okay, brainstorming session in order:

    Why can’t Charles be killed? Native of the island? Is he 4 toed and somehow got off the island but can’t find his way back?

  57. Michael says:

    There was a depression in the ground where Ben was laying in the desert like he was dropped.

  58. matt says:

    It appears that the title LOST has been redefined. No longer does it mean the LOST castaways, or the LOST way, but now its what has been LOST and the struggle to get it back.

  59. Michael says:

    [quote comment="213956"]Okay, brainstorming session in order:

    Why can’t Charles be killed? Native of the island? Is he 4 toed and somehow got off the island but can’t find his way back?[/quote]

    _+_+_+_+_+_+

    Ben can not kill Widmore. Because the island wont let him or because you can change the past/present/future.

  60. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213953"]Stupid episode[/quote]
    Don’t even start. :(

  61. Rita says:

    [quote comment="213957"]There was a depression in the ground where Ben was laying in the desert like he was dropped.[/quote]
    He seems to have teleported there.

  62. matt says:

    Oh, and “the island” is the key to the game.

  63. Michael says:

    [quote comment="213961"][quote comment="213957"]There was a depression in the ground where Ben was laying in the desert like he was dropped.[/quote]
    He seems to have teleported there.[/quote]
    _+_+_+_+_+

    Yeah,But when? WHen he went into the tunnel?

  64. omar says:

    [quote comment="213922"][quote comment="213885"]Are ya ready kids? Aye Aye Captain! I can’t hear yoooouuuu. Aye Aye Captain!!!

    Wouldn’t Regina’s chains be drawn to the magnetic island?[/quote]
    Oohhhh who lives in a pineapple under the sea?
    DHARMA shark square pants.

    We haven’t seen him in a while.[/quote]
    LOL

  65. lust4lost says:

    very twisted. i lost it when smokey came and saved the day. that was tooooo much. not real.stupid, really

  66. lost chicka says:

    [quote comment="213958"]It appears that the title LOST has been redefined. No longer does it mean the LOST castaways, or the LOST way, but now its what has been LOST and the struggle to get it back.[/quote]

    deep…

  67. Michael says:

    Smokey really is a security system

  68. sector7 says:

    Obvious teleportation. He was cold and wearing a jacket. Wasn’t that ice on his sleeve?

    Will Ben send Sayid to kill Penny?

  69. lust4lost says:

    a security system that you can see through yet strong enough to pick up a gunman and wisk him …. where? remember mr. eko

  70. DocH says:

    [quote comment="213933"]
    That’s cool, but you are chatting on the preview thread.
    [/quote]
    Last time I checked it was the show thread (not preview thread) meaning “No spoilers or discussion of episode previews.”
    [quote comment="213953"]
    Stupid episode
    [/quote]
    Shock and Awe – Like Ben said.
    Translation for small minds… BEST LOST Episode ever.

  71. lost chicka says:

    when smokey “saved the day” i just started laughing. there’s nothing better then watching a cloud of smoke drag people across the ground and beat them to death. suffocating them to death wouldn’t be as funny, but really who comes up with that kind of an idea??

    So sayid gets off the island, gets nadia (aww, love), she dies supposedly by the dude, ben gets sayid to kill him and cons him to working for him. And now ben’s going after penny & taking des’s love away! Not fair!!!!

    ok episode…

  72. Michael says:

    [quote comment="213968"]Obvious teleportation. He was cold and wearing a jacket. Wasn’t that ice on his sleeve?

    Will Ben send Sayid to kill Penny?[/quote]

    +_+_+_+_+_+

    WHere would he be teleporting from that would be cold. He looked like he got shot. and he was in one of those jackets.

    & yes he will be sending sayid

  73. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213968"]Obvious teleportation. He was cold and wearing a jacket. Wasn’t that ice on his sleeve?

    Will Ben send Sayid to kill Penny?[/quote]
    My money is the FF at the animal hospital, when Ben says he has another name for Sayid…Penny.

  74. Shooter says:

    guess it’s pretty obvious now that Ben can move through time and space. I got the impression that Ben travelled to Tunisia, Iraq and London when he went into the cave, but he didn’t have any bruises etc. Any suggestions?

  75. omar says:

    pjsander i liked eli stone…OK WTF IS GOING ON…. so ben is a internatinal spy and this show proves it, i told yall long time ago he knows EXACTLY what he is doing…his daughter dies, so ben is gonna kill widmores daughter penny.. So is widmore and ben both buisness partners and some deal (the island) went bad and they wanna buy each other out, or maybe ben was like ENOUGH, get these flight 815 survivors off my island, and widmore was the only one with cash and resources to do it??…
    WHAT THE HELL IS THAT BLACK SMOKE, and claire lives for now, but we know she gonna die or kate just adds kidnapping to her criminal history….and my dog keeps looking at me, i think he lost, or maybe he wanna be famous like vincent..

  76. dukewm says:

    OK, the long wait is over and new food for thought.

    So Ben is in Iraq in OCT 2005 and goes to London (either before or after that) to visit Charles Widmore to tell him he is going to kill Penelope (which we’ll assume he can accomplish at some point).

    It seemed like Widmore had control of the Island way back in the Dharma era (or before?), when he told Ben it had always been “his Island”. If so, how did he lose the location of it? Could the Island have been teleported to another location off of Widmore’s “radar” ?

    I knew Daniel was lying about the morse code and glad Bernard “busted” him. What’s his agenda, (or more likely) what is he going along with in deceiving Jack’s group ?

    And to close for now while I lay awake thinking, Sad to see Alex meet her demise. I didn’t think they would do that and I’m sure many of us will miss her.

  77. lost chicka says:

    yeah, what did widimore mean when he said “it’s ALWAYS been MY island?”????? is he dharma or something???? i don’t think dharma considered the island to be the “hostile’s.”

  78. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213974"]guess it’s pretty obvious now that Ben can move through time and space. I got the impression that Ben travelled to Tunisia, Iraq and London when he went into the cave, but he didn’t have any bruises etc. Any suggestions?[/quote]
    My take is that he was summoning Smokey. The traveling will happen after meeting with Jacob.

  79. Michael says:

    [quote comment="213974"]guess it’s pretty obvious now that Ben can move through time and space. I got the impression that Ben travelled to Tunisia, Iraq and London when he went into the cave, but he didn’t have any bruises etc. Any suggestions?[/quote]
    +_+_+_+_+_+_+_+

    The bruises were the first thing i was looking for. Thats the only thing that makes me think he didn’t travell through the tunnel at that time.

    Sayids reactions when he first see him was that Ben should still be on the Isalnd.

  80. lost chicka says:

    [quote comment="213978"][quote comment="213974"]guess it’s pretty obvious now that Ben can move through time and space. I got the impression that Ben travelled to Tunisia, Iraq and London when he went into the cave, but he didn’t have any bruises etc. Any suggestions?[/quote]
    My take is that he was summoning Smokey. The traveling will happen after meeting with Jacob.[/quote]
    i think you’re right that he was summoning smokey

  81. omar says:

    widmore probably funded the dharma inituative back in the day, cause he is a billionaire, and it was a research facilty, and he got the money to do it, so in words it might have been his island…..That was bens flash foward… lost chicka u a sucka for any1 falling in love.})

  82. Shooter says:

    [quote comment="213979"][quote comment="213974"]guess it’s pretty obvious now that Ben can move through time and space. I got the impression that Ben travelled to Tunisia, Iraq and London when he went into the cave, but he didn’t have any bruises etc. Any suggestions?[/quote]
    +_+_+_+_+_+_+_+

    The bruises were the first thing i was looking for. Thats the only thing that makes me think he didn’t travell through the tunnel at that time.

    Sayids reactions when he first see him was that Ben should still be on the Isalnd.[/quote]
    true forgot about that.

    Has anyone tried to put together a timeline of all the flashforwards, especially now that we know they aren’t being shown in order?

  83. Andrew says:

    Great episode
    how did Keamy survive Smokey?
    and i wonder where penny is that would make her hard to find

  84. Michael says:

    [quote comment="213982"][quote comment="213979"][quote comment="213974"]guess it’s pretty obvious now that Ben can move through time and space. I got the impression that Ben travelled to Tunisia, Iraq and London when he went into the cave, but he didn’t have any bruises etc. Any suggestions?[/quote]
    +_+_+_+_+_+_+_+

    The bruises were the first thing i was looking for. Thats the only thing that makes me think he didn’t travell through the tunnel at that time.

    Sayids reactions when he first see him was that Ben should still be on the Isalnd.[/quote]
    true forgot about that.

    Has anyone tried to put together a timeline of all the flashforwards, especially now that we know they aren’t being shown in order?[/quote]

    +_+_+_+_+

    I would say they showed it in order just by his appearance and how it change. it became more groomed over time.

  85. lost chicka says:

    yeah ben says widimore will never find the island (so what happened to his people that found the island?). and widimore says ben will never find penny – so where’s she at??? w/ jacob? :P

  86. dukewm says:

    And what’s Jack coming down with ?
    We know it can’t be too serious ‘cuz he ends up back home, but it looks like his little illness might be important.

  87. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213985"]+_+_+_+_+

    I would say they showed it in order just by his appearance and how it change. it became more groomed over time.[/quote]
    The FFs in an episode are always in order per character. I think he was asking about ALL the FFs, not just tonight’s.

  88. RAY says:

    My favorite part of tonight’s episode was how Sawyer was so protective of Hurley, Claire and the baby. I’ve been re-watching the show from season 1 and he has really come a long way.

    And I loved watching Hurley hold that baby while he played RISK.

    It’s hard to believe that Ben left his daughter out to dry like that. I mean, what kind of guy does that? He is not a good guy.

    The show has evolved so much from the beginning.

    Looks like Farraday is a big fat liar. So, is the doctor on the boat not dead yet on the boat but because of the “time delay/warp thing-y” he will be dead soon so that is why he is dead on the island? Hmmm…ouch my brain hurts.

  89. Shooter says:

    [quote comment="213985"][quote comment="213982"][quote comment="213979"][quote comment="213974"]guess it’s pretty obvious now that Ben can move through time and space. I got the impression that Ben travelled to Tunisia, Iraq and London when he went into the cave, but he didn’t have any bruises etc. Any suggestions?[/quote]
    +_+_+_+_+_+_+_+

    The bruises were the first thing i was looking for. Thats the only thing that makes me think he didn’t travell through the tunnel at that time.

    Sayids reactions when he first see him was that Ben should still be on the Isalnd.[/quote]
    true forgot about that.

    Has anyone tried to put together a timeline of all the flashforwards, especially now that we know they aren’t being shown in order?[/quote]

    +_+_+_+_+

    I would say they showed it in order just by his appearance and how it change. it became more groomed over time.[/quote]

    i agree that this episodes were in order, I was wondering if anyone has tried to sort out all the ff from the beginning of the season. After rewatching a few eps i think i’ve got it down but would like to see a “time map” to compare.

  90. dukewm says:

    I’m bettin’ Ben WILL find Penny and HE wants to do “the honors” himself!

  91. Michael says:

    I would agree that Widmore has lots of money invested into the island therefore its his. He most likely was taken there ( if he has ever been there) and doesn’t know how to get there. That’s why he buys the book from the auction. Ben probably had everyone who knew how to get there killed.

  92. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213986"]yeah ben says widimore will never find the island (so what happened to his people that found the island?). and widimore says ben will never find penny – so where’s she at??? w/ jacob? :P[/quote]
    My guess is that he who controls the island controls when/where it is. So until Charles gets control of the island he can’t control when/where it is.

  93. DocH says:

    Locke said to Ben tonight, about Smokie, you said you didn’t know what Smokie is… Ben reaffirmed what he said before, that basically – yeah – don’t know what Smokie is – he NEVER said he did not know how to use OR summon Smokie… he has simply said (twice) he doesn’t know what Smokie is (think Quigley Down Under final scenes).

    Ben found his extra double super secret closet and it had markings/hieroglyphs like the pillar that Sawyer & Lockes dad was tied to, when Ben told John to kill the conman. Ben was all neat and clean going in to the closet, after playing the piano, but when he came out, he looked like he had just changed an engine or transmission. I don’t think he bolted for Tunisia, or anywhere else at that point.

    As for plopping in the middle of Tunisia, he was like everyone else that jolts awake suddenly on the show, asleep – then eyes wide open. That has to be travel through the ‘portal’. He even got a little vomit-ty right afterward – a symptom described to Juliet before her voyage to the island.

  94. omar says:

    sayeed is a straight gangsta, raw underworld killer….he a beast son… but anyways the houston rockets gonna win tonight, McGrady fo three….oh, has any1 played this lost video game on the ps3??

  95. Michael says:

    It’s hard to believe that Ben left his daughter out to dry like that. I mean, what kind of guy does that? He is not a good

    _+_+_+_+_+

    I think Ben thought she honestly would not die. He seemed to be in utter shock.

  96. Michael says:

    [quote comment="213996"]Locke said to Ben tonight, about Smokie, you said you didn’t know what Smokie is… Ben reaffirmed what he said before, that basically – yeah – don’t know what Smokie is – he NEVER said he did not know how to use OR summon Smokie… he has simply said (twice) he doesn’t know what Smokie is (think Quigley Down Under final scenes).

    Ben found his extra double super secret closet and it had markings/hieroglyphs like the pillar that Sawyer & Lockes dad was tied to, when Ben told John to kill the conman. Ben was all neat and clean going in to the closet, after playing the piano, but when he came out, he looked like he had just changed an engine or transmission. I don’t think he bolted for Tunisia, or anywhere else at that point.

    As for plopping in the middle of Tunisia, he was like everyone else that jolts awake suddenly on the show, asleep – then eyes wide open. That has to be travel through the ‘portal’. He even got a little vomit-ty right afterward – a symptom described to Juliet before her voyage to the island.[/quote]
    +_+_+__+_+_+_

    Think the tunnel he climbed into was just that dirty.

  97. RAY says:

    [quote comment="213998"]It’s hard to believe that Ben left his daughter out to dry like that. I mean, what kind of guy does that? He is not a good

    _+_+_+_+_+

    I think Ben thought she honestly would not die. He seemed to be in utter shock.[/quote]
    =====

    I see what you mean, but to even say “she’s a pawn, she means nothing to me.” How can he actually say those things? Like, really. What father does that? Ever. Even in an emergency situation. That’s awful. I think he thought he could manipulate and get his way per usual and was in shock when things didn’t go the way he planned. Because you know, he “always has a plan.”

  98. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213998"]It’s hard to believe that Ben left his daughter out to dry like that. I mean, what kind of guy does that? He is not a good

    _+_+_+_+_+

    I think Ben thought she honestly would not die. He seemed to be in utter shock.[/quote]
    ++++
    For sure…Ben was playing a mind game on man he researched…but this time he was wrong. It’s just the latest “game changer” that Lost is infamous for…

  99. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213996"]Locke said to Ben tonight, about Smokie, you said you didn’t know what Smokie is… Ben reaffirmed what he said before, that basically – yeah – don’t know what Smokie is – he NEVER said he did not know how to use OR summon Smokie… he has simply said (twice) he doesn’t know what Smokie is (think Quigley Down Under final scenes).

    Ben found his extra double super secret closet and it had markings/hieroglyphs like the pillar that Sawyer & Lockes dad was tied to, when Ben told John to kill the conman. Ben was all neat and clean going in to the closet, after playing the piano, but when he came out, he looked like he had just changed an engine or transmission. I don’t think he bolted for Tunisia, or anywhere else at that point.

    As for plopping in the middle of Tunisia, he was like everyone else that jolts awake suddenly on the show, asleep – then eyes wide open. That has to be travel through the ‘portal’. He even got a little vomit-ty right afterward – a symptom described to Juliet before her voyage to the island.[/quote]
    I think you’re right on.

    Also, the comment Ben made to Locke that he needed him to survive…he must know that he needs Locke to “man” the island while he evacuates.

  100. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214001"][quote comment="213998"]It’s hard to believe that Ben left his daughter out to dry like that. I mean, what kind of guy does that? He is not a good

    _+_+_+_+_+

    I think Ben thought she honestly would not die. He seemed to be in utter shock.[/quote]
    =====

    I see what you mean, but to even say “she’s a pawn, she means nothing to me.” How can he actually say those things? Like, really. What father does that? Ever. Even in an emergency situation. That’s awful. I think he thought he could manipulate and get his way per usual and was in shock when things didn’t go the way he planned. Because you know, he “always has a plan.”[/quote]
    +_+_+__+_+_+_+_

    He was totally using reverse psychology on kimmy. just didn’t work. He was trying to save her life with out giving up his own. Because he knew they would kill her any way

  101. DocH says:

    As for Widmore vs. Linus. They came off as a couple of old world gansters/mafioso. Ben is the new punk that wants to toss the old boss. Widmore mentioned that everything Ben had was stolen, from him. We heard “changed the rules” a few times tonight. Code of honor is important, even in mobs, “honor among thieves” if you will. One old world “rule” – “you never go after a rivals’ family”… business is business – you do battle there, and family is sacred… off-limits. When Widmore (if Ben is right) whacked Alex, then he changed the rules and Penny became fair game. LChicka said that Des might not like that Penny is now a target. We saw Ben in Tunisia almost a year after the island, who is to say that Desmond is still alive, or off-island at that point?

  102. PJSander says:

    Observation: tonight, the ISLAND scenes were the flashbacks! Did anyone else notice that when we “returned” to see what was going on in New Otherton and on the beach, we heard that familiar SWOOSH that usually takes us to a character’s flashBACK.

    hmmmm

    : ) P

  103. Shooter says:

    [quote comment="214002"][quote comment="213998"]It’s hard to believe that Ben left his daughter out to dry like that. I mean, what kind of guy does that? He is not a good

    _+_+_+_+_+

    I think Ben thought she honestly would not die. He seemed to be in utter shock.[/quote]
    ++++
    For sure…Ben was playing a mind game on man he researched…but this time he was wrong. It’s just the latest “game changer” that Lost is infamous for…[/quote]
    I thought maybe that Ben and Charles had some sort of “gentlemen’s agreement”. They’re fighting a war over this island and anyone is expendable, except they “agreed” not to make personal attacks on each other’s loved ones. That’s why Ben thought that Alex would be safe. When Keamy killed her, Ben realized that Charles had “changed the rules”.

  104. omar says:

    well ben said he couldnt believe that he changed the rules after his daughter dies, then told widmore that in his penthouse that he changed the rules….so that concludes that ben and widmore have been fighting over the island for years beacuse widmore funded the island for research and wants its miracles for profit, and ben just took over the island in a coup…. so they probably had some arangement that they would not kill each others family members in fight for this elusive and magnificent island….but Widmore changed the rules… so, my lost friends, thats why ben told that guy to kill alex, he didnt think it would really happen.

  105. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214005"]As for Widmore vs. Linus. They came off as a couple of old world gansters/mafioso. Ben is the new punk that wants to toss the old boss. Widmore mentioned that everything Ben had was stolen, from him. We heard “changed the rules” a few times tonight. Code of honor is important, even in mobs, “honor among thieves” if you will. One old world “rule” – “you never go after a rivals’ family”… business is business – you do battle there, and family is sacred… off-limits. When Widmore (if Ben is right) whacked Alex, then he changed the rules and Penny became fair game. LChicka said that Des might not like that Penny is now a target. We saw Ben in Tunisia almost a year after the island, who is to say that Desmond is still alive, or off-island at that point?[/quote]
    +_+_+_+_+_+_

    Because its Des and he’s awesome. But they did come of very old world. Even the car Ben pulls up in.

  106. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214005"]As for Widmore vs. Linus. They came off as a couple of old world gansters/mafioso. Ben is the new punk that wants to toss the old boss. Widmore mentioned that everything Ben had was stolen, from him. We heard “changed the rules” a few times tonight. Code of honor is important, even in mobs, “honor among thieves” if you will. One old world “rule” – “you never go after a rivals’ family”… business is business – you do battle there, and family is sacred… off-limits. When Widmore (if Ben is right) whacked Alex, then he changed the rules and Penny became fair game. LChicka said that Des might not like that Penny is now a target. We saw Ben in Tunisia almost a year after the island, who is to say that Desmond is still alive, or off-island at that point?[/quote]
    Spot on. The battle was being played with classic rules. Spies, plants, etc. What strikes me STILL is the “my daughter” intesity of Ben. I really think he is her real father.

  107. DocH says:

    [quote comment="213983"]
    how did Keamy survive Smokey?
    [/quote]
    Where did we see that Keamy survived the attack by the smoke monster?

  108. Michael says:

    The comment about sleeping with a bottle of whisky like they have known each other for a while. and widomer having nightmares

  109. RAY says:

    “so, my lost friends, thats why ben told that guy to kill alex, he didnt think it would really happen.[/quote]”

    ====

    Good point. My point however is Ben is a sucky dad for saying those things in front of Alex.

  110. sector7 says:

    As for the order of all FFs this season, I believe D&C said that they are going in order from furthermost to latest. So Jacks FF happens furthermost in the future, then Kate’s happens before that, then Sayid’s in The Economist, etc.

  111. PJSander says:

    My only criticism is that Sayid took Ben at his word that the bald dude killed Nadia, with the only evidence being a photo that could easily have been doctored. I would have imagined Sayid still had trust issues with Ben – unless there is something IMPORTANT, and as yet unseen, that happened between tonight’s island time and the October 2005 desert funeral procession.

    Definitely an episode full of surprises, revelations, easter eggs and of course, even more questions.

    “Australia’s the key to the game.”

    : ) P

  112. lost chicka says:

    [quote comment="213998"]It’s hard to believe that Ben left his daughter out to dry like that. I mean, what kind of guy does that? He is not a good

    _+_+_+_+_+

    I think Ben thought she honestly would not die. He seemed to be in utter shock.[/quote]

    >> i think he didn’t think she would die. he really didn’t think she’d die if he said she meant nothing to him. i think he really did do that cuz he thought he could save her, not bcuz he’s a bad guy (tho he is without a doubt). i don’t know who was worse tho trying to save their kid ben or michael…

  113. Shooter says:

    [quote comment="214014"]As for the order of all FFs this season, I believe D&C said that they are going in order from furthermost to latest. So Jacks FF happens furthermost in the future, then Kate’s happens before that, then Sayid’s in The Economist, etc.[/quote]

    Thanks, that puts it better perspective.

  114. DocH says:

    [quote comment="213991"]
    It’s hard to believe that Ben left his daughter out to dry like that. I mean, what kind of guy does that? He is not a good guy.
    quote]
    I think he is what he is. He knew that if he went out and surrendered it would be “Game Over Man”. I think the ‘she’s adopted’ ploy was his last ditch effort, card up his sleeve, (name any cliche) – it was the only thing they might bite on…
    Old saying “there is no honor in death… there is just death”. It was his only tactic! If they capture him… no one can win – ever.

  115. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214011"][quote comment="213983"]
    how did Keamy survive Smokey?
    [/quote]
    Where did we see that Keamy survived the attack by the smoke monster?[/quote]
    Don’t watch the commercials!

  116. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214013"]“so, my lost friends, thats why ben told that guy to kill alex, he didnt think it would really happen.[/quote]”

    ====

    Good point. My point however is Ben is a sucky dad for saying those things in front of Alex.[/quote]

    I think Ben said that to make Keamy leave Alex alone. Keamy threatened to kill Alex because he knew Ben loved her. If Ben could convince Keamy otherwise, he might leave her alive. So I don’t buy Ben was being a terrible father in this case.

  117. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214006"]Observation: tonight, the ISLAND scenes were the flashbacks! Did anyone else notice that when we “returned” to see what was going on in New Otherton and on the beach, we heard that familiar SWOOSH that usually takes us to a character’s flashBACK.

    hmmmm

    : ) P[/quote]
    Yep, sure seems new. Goes along with D&C saying that the lines will get blurred (paraphrasing).

  118. Oceanic Mgmt. says:

    Whitmore is the head of the Hanso Society or he’s actually Magnus Hanso.

  119. Andrew says:

    [quote comment="214011"][quote comment="213983"]
    how did Keamy survive Smokey?
    [/quote]
    Where did we see that Keamy survived the attack by the smoke monster?[/quote]

    The preview that im apperantly not suposed to talk about…my bad

  120. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="214014"]As for the order of all FFs this season, I believe D&C said that they are going in order from furthermost to latest. So Jacks FF happens furthermost in the future, then Kate’s happens before that, then Sayid’s in The Economist, etc.[/quote]

    I beg to differ. In fact, as I remember it, they denied this is the case. As I recall, D&C said that within each episode the flashforwards happen in chronological order, but that over the arc of the series, there is not an order.

    : ) P

  121. shells says:

    does anyone know what song Ben was playing on the piano when Locke, Hurley, Sawyer, and Aaron entered?

  122. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214029"]does anyone know what song Ben was playing on the piano when Locke, Hurley, Sawyer, and Aaron entered?[/quote]

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-
    No. But good question. How can we find out?

  123. Writer says:

    If Widmore is the guy who funded the whole DHARMA initiative like some of you are speculating, then why are the DHARMA food and supply drops still happening? Wouldn’t Widmore have stopped those? Seems to be a hole in there somewhere.

  124. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="213996"]Locke said to Ben tonight, about Smokie, you said you didn’t know what Smokie is… Ben reaffirmed what he said before, that basically – yeah – don’t know what Smokie is – …[/quote]
    Slightly disagree. I didn’t see it as reaffirming, his response was a defiant “You can ask Jacob all about it when we go to the cabin.” I took it as he affirmed he lied.

  125. avalanche says:

    the most pressing question for me tonight is what is ben? we have heard repeatedly that miles knew what he was. widmore knows what he is? what the ?#%* is he?!?! charles widmore is an anagram of chimeras weldor. can ben see thru him and vice versa? are the otherworldly disguised as human? makes me think of old legends about the faerie kingdom we see come up in some comic books.

  126. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214031"]If Widmore is the guy who funded the whole DHARMA initiative like some of you are speculating, then why are the DHARMA food and supply drops still happening? Wouldn’t Widmore have stopped those? Seems to be a hole in there somewhere.[/quote]
    DHARMA was funded by the Hanso Foundation. Widmore Industries is tied to Hanso Foundation in a partnership and Hanso has offices in the Widmore building in New York (we learned from The Bad Twin book).

  127. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214033"]the most pressing question for me tonight is what is ben? we have heard repeatedly that miles knew what he was. widmore knows what he is? what the ?#%* is he?!?! charles widmore is an anagram of chimeras weldor. can ben see thru him and vice versa? are the otherworldly disguised as human? makes me think of old legends about the faerie kingdom we see come up in some comic books.[/quote]
    Well we saw his birth, from humans off the island and only ended up on the island per chance. So I think they mean something metaphoric.

  128. Awesome. Just awesome.

  129. Hammer says:

    Okay, bed time for Bonzo.

    See you in a couple of hundred posts (after the West coasters get a load of this!)

    I have to ponder why Charles can’t be killed. Because Jacob said so? What’s going on?

  130. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214038"]Okay, bed time for Bonzo.

    See you in a couple of hundred posts (after the West coasters get a load of this!)

    I have to ponder why Charles can’t be killed. Because Jacob said so? What’s going on?[/quote]
    +_+_+__+_+_+_+

    Jacob and Widmore.
    Jacob, Widmore.
    Jacob Widmore.

  131. DocH says:

    [quote comment="214038"]
    I have to ponder why Charles can’t be killed? [/quote]
    The answer?
    Can’t be killed because he is too important to the story and unfolding events.
    OR,
    Can’t be killed (physically) because he is immortal(ish) like Mikhail, Alpert, Naomi, et al.
    No clue here.

  132. intolost says:

    Yes! I knew Ben could time travel. : )

    Where’s Abaddon?

    Where’s Frank?

    Faraday’s got to spill it! What else does he know?

    Go Claire! Survive that explosion, girl! She even kept her shoes on! I love it!

    What are “the rules?”

    Night, night.

  133. DocH says:

    [quote comment="213916"]
    … THIS magnet does attract per the key around Jack’s neck and all the crap that flew at the wall when the hatch blew.
    [/quote]
    False logic you. I have two high power magnets. I line them up head-to-tail, and they cling so hard, it takes 5 minutes to wrestle them apart.
    SAME two magnets head-to-head, and one gets thrown half way across the room.

  134. avalanche says:

    [quote comment="214035"][quote comment="214033"]the most pressing question for me tonight is what is ben? we have heard repeatedly that miles knew what he was. widmore knows what he is? what the ?#%* is he?!?! charles widmore is an anagram of chimeras weldor. can ben see thru him and vice versa? are the otherworldly disguised as human? makes me think of old legends about the faerie kingdom we see come up in some comic books.[/quote]
    Well we saw his birth, from humans off the island and only ended up on the island per chance. So I think they mean something metaphoric.[/quote]
    ————–

    we really don’t know that his mother (or laslo :) )was human and i dare say nothing happens surrounding ben by coincidence

  135. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214046"]Yes! I knew Ben could time travel. : )

    Where’s Abaddon?

    Where’s Frank?

    Faraday’s got to spill it! What else does he know?

    Go Claire! Survive that explosion, girl! She even kept her shoes on! I love it!

    What are “the rules?”

    Night, night.[/quote]
    +_+_+_+_+__+

    Yeah. I liked how he asked for the date. The girl behind the counter had a weird expression. .

  136. Found says:

    [quote comment="214003"][quote comment="213996"]Locke said to Ben tonight, about Smokie, you said you didn’t know what Smokie is… Ben reaffirmed what he said before, that basically – yeah – don’t know what Smokie is – he NEVER said he did not know how to use OR summon Smokie… he has simply said (twice) he doesn’t know what Smokie is (think Quigley Down Under final scenes).

    Ben found his extra double super secret closet and it had markings/hieroglyphs like the pillar that Sawyer & Lockes dad was tied to, when Ben told John to kill the conman. Ben was all neat and clean going in to the closet, after playing the piano, but when he came out, he looked like he had just changed an engine or transmission. I don’t think he bolted for Tunisia, or anywhere else at that point.

    As for plopping in the middle of Tunisia, he was like everyone else that jolts awake suddenly on the show, asleep – then eyes wide open. That has to be travel through the ‘portal’. He even got a little vomit-ty right afterward – a symptom described to Juliet before her voyage to the island.[/quote]
    I think you’re right on.

    Also, the comment Ben made to Locke that he needed him to survive…he must know that he needs Locke to “man” the island while he evacuates.[/quote]
    ****************************************************

    The first thing that popped into my mind when Ben said that, was that Locke was like Charlie in Willy Wonka’s Chocolate Factory. He had to pass all of the tests to see if he was the one destined top take over the Factory after Willy left. Guess we know now that Locke is the “One” that They were waiting for after all…
    Now, were is that lifetime supply of “Apollo” Chocolate Bars that he was promised?…

  137. Found says:

    Also, I don’t think that Ben not being able to kill Widmore has anything to do with an agreement, or some kind of “Pirate” code… (More about Pirates later…) But it has to be related to a time space continuum, or Jacob, or both. Also “Alway his Island” may have something to do with the old faithfull Finders Keepers law. Since he feels the “Black Rock” Pirates have claim to the Island since they “Found” it first…

  138. Lins says:

    Wow, I’m gonna need to watch that again! Just wow…actually I’m so wired now that I might just stay up and watch it now…it’s only got to be like what, 20 minutes without the commercials? :)

  139. Lins says:

    Am I the only West coaster on here? I hate being the last one “in the know”!

  140. UpInSmoke says:

    Now we know how polar bears end up in the desert wearing DHARMA jewelry…although I found it funny that Ben wore a down jacket for his magic carpet ride to the Sahara. I think it is interesting that they used such a large animal to test out their teleporting device…most capable scientists prefer using smaller model organisms for dry runs.

  141. RGS says:

    I don’t think Ben would send Sayid to kill Penny because that would ruin the manipulation he has over Sayid. Sayid knows who Penny is in relation to Desmond. I don’t even think it’s a far leap to think that Desmond talked to Sayid about that on the freightor (off camera of course, because that would be a minor turn of events, that got compressed).

    Ben’s visit to Widmore very likely ocurred after he recruited Sayid, otherwise dude Ben was following, would have known who Ben was, as he would have probably had orders to kill him.

    I am not so sure we know that Ben travels through time. Perhaps the time of the bubble surrounding the island. The point that weakens that position is because he seemed confused as to the year. If he is able to travel through time, seems like he wouldn’t have been in shock when his daughter died. There’s just a lot of stuff that would not surprise him.

    So not understanding how Miles could be alive at this point, it’s like they’ve befriended him, and he keeps talkin’ ish about them getting killed. D&C needs to clean that up.

    I think the reason that Ben can’t kill Widmore hasn’t even been close to being revealed.

    Though I am unsure of how the Widmore/Hanso connection fits together because there is something not quite right about the supply drops continuing. Although a reason that the drops would continue is because Widmore needs Ben to stay alive in order to find the island.

    By the same token he has a general idea of where it is to make drops but can’t find the exact location? Part of the reason he can’t find the island though, is because Ben was jamming signals, etc. after the purge.

    It was a cool little episode though, more mysteries unearthed of course.

  142. RGS says:

    [quote comment="214077"]Now we know how polar bears end up in the desert wearing DHARMA jewelry…although I found it funny that Ben wore a down jacket for his magic carpet ride to the Sahara. I think it is interesting that they used such a large animal to test out their teleporting device…most capable scientists prefer using smaller model organisms for dry runs.[/quote]

    The polar bear might not have been the dry run. They may have started doing that to further their experiments of animals living in different climates.

  143. Jenny says:

    first timer………
    did anyone else think it was strange that Miles acted like he didn’t know who the attackers were when he rang the doorbell and gave Ben the walkie-talkie? He was on the same boat as them!

  144. Kathy says:

    So Claire is okay for now but they still make us see her as frail, don’t think she has much longer left on the show…

    I just keep thinking about Hurley’s flash forward when he tells Jack he’s sorry he didn’t go to the beach with him… thought I pretty well understood that comment but now that he takes off with Locke and Ben I’m really wondering about the weight of that statement.

  145. Hooked says:

    Hi Lins. I’m a west coaster too. Just finished watching and catching up on the blog entries. What an exciting episode. Seems like an entirely different show now–like Ben and Charles are playing a game with everyone else being the pawns. I thought it was interesting when Ben was in the penthouse with Widmore and at certain points in the scene you could only see half of each of their faces. Could they be brothers…..the same person? Creepy.

  146. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="213953"]Stupid episode[/quote]
    JTS

  147. lost4ever says:

    INDIANA Ben

  148. james says:

    so: this flash forward had nothing to do with what was happening while smokie was cleaning up the place! ben surely didn’t go down the tunnel, taking a trip to tunisia thinking “let’s better hurry, i’ve got somkie waiting for me”. more and more i happen to believe that smokie is a part of someone. like comming out of someone and leaves dirt on him :) ben and widmore might be something like the ying-yang of the island… what the hell! let’s just wait for the next episode! i’m a bit worried we won’t see much of the island in future episodes, once the survivors are in the real world again… that would be a shame!

  149. CAG says:

    [quote comment="213986"]yeah ben says widimore will never find the island (so what happened to his people that found the island?). and widimore says ben will never find penny – so where’s she at??? w/ jacob? :P[/quote]

    Maybe Jacob can move the island, like he moves the cabin? THat would explain the continued supply drops as well, Jacob could just move the island back to where (and when?) the drops were to take place.

    Cool about the island scenes being flashbacks now.

  150. CAG says:

    [quote comment="214015"]My only criticism is that Sayid took Ben at his word that the bald dude killed Nadia, with the only evidence being a photo that could easily have been doctored. I would have imagined Sayid still had trust issues with Ben – unless there is something IMPORTANT, and as yet unseen, that happened between tonight’s island time and the October 2005 desert funeral procession.

    Definitely an episode full of surprises, revelations, easter eggs and of course, even more questions.

    “Australia’s the key to the game.”

    : ) P[/quote]

    Yeah! I mean, grief is one thing, but I think Ben showing up off island would kinda make Said a little suspicious about maybe BEN having something to do with Nadia’s death.

  151. Polli Kovitch says:

    [quote comment="213857"]The title is very intriguing…more importantly, it was a book written by HG wells back in the 30’s.

    .[/quote]
    ——
    POLI writes:
    Well done,lost4ever. You are right on. The lierary homages (ie. Wizard of Oz, Alice in Wonderland-white rabbit, and so on and so on) are not to be taken lightly and the HG WELLS time traveler notion initiates the “SHAPE” episode. Wells also wrote a direct link to LOST in The Island of Dr. Moreau. Read a summary of that book and it goes to a number of CORE Lost plot lines. LOST is dystopian and with the violent, visceral and disturbing killings in SHAPE, all bets are off in terms of survivors. I am more hooked than ever.
    With Ben’s inability to kill Widmore. There is now a declared dual epicenter Ben-Charles and agree with many of the comments polarity with Widmore. Yes to Hammer’s point that Hanso is in Widmore’s building. Yes, to Michael’s point that Widmore is literally invested in the Island. Could he have been in the first Dharma and escaped when Ben comes back to carry out the massacre? Agree with the entry that Jacobs will send Ben out..perhaps to confront Widmore.

  152. dukewm says:

    [quote comment="214022"]Whitmore is the head of the Hanso Society or he’s actually Magnus Hanso.[/quote]
    ***************************

    WAY back in Season 1 (maybe S1E5 or S1E6?) there was a shot from street level of an office building with a man in the window that I thought looked a LOT like Widmore.

    I’d have to review to find it but remember thinking it would be a strange coincidence at the time.

  153. dukewm says:

    [quote comment="214231"][quote comment="214022"]Whitmore is the head of the Hanso Society or he’s actually Magnus Hanso.[/quote]
    ***************************

    WAY back in Season 1 (maybe S1E5 or S1E6?) there was a shot from street level of an office building with a man in the window that I thought looked a LOT like Widmore.

    I’d have to review to find it but remember thinking it would be a strange coincidence at the time.[/quote]

    ****************************

    Could have been S2 when the Asian Dr. video was being watched in the sequence where he was introducing the origins of the Dharma Initiative and the Dutch couple from Univ of Michigan, then the Hanso Building had a “cameo” appearance. THAT was Widmore in the window!

  154. lost chicka says:

    could the reason why ben cannot kill widimore be that the island won’t let him die? like michael couldn’t kill himself bcuz the island wouldn’t let him.

  155. lost chicka says:

    Jenny (c143) I’ve been wondering the exact same thing! That and how does Claire manage to come out of an explosion with only a few scrapes, all her clothes looking as good as the day she bought them, and then able to run around the island carrying a baby???

  156. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214047"][quote comment="213916"]
    … THIS magnet does attract per the key around Jack’s neck and all the crap that flew at the wall when the hatch blew.
    [/quote]
    False logic you. I have two high power magnets. I line them up head-to-tail, and they cling so hard, it takes 5 minutes to wrestle them apart.
    SAME two magnets head-to-head, and one gets thrown half way across the room.[/quote]

    ++++++++
    Sorry, I guess I didn’t understand what you are saying at first.

  157. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214237"]could the reason why ben cannot kill widimore be that the island won’t let him die? like michael couldn’t kill himself bcuz the island wouldn’t let him.[/quote]
    Sure, but when I ask why, I mean WHY? What is the REASON?

  158. Tim says:

    Anyone else notice that Widmore’s accent seemed different?
    Australian or South African or something.

  159. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214243"]Jenny (c143) I’ve been wondering the exact same thing! That and how does Claire manage to come out of an explosion with only a few scrapes, all her clothes looking as good as the day she bought them, and then able to run around the island carrying a baby???[/quote]I think there might be a hint in Claire saying “Charlie?” when Sawyer woke her up. Charlie protected her in the blast?

  160. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214189"][quote comment="213986"]yeah ben says widimore will never find the island (so what happened to his people that found the island?). and widimore says ben will never find penny – so where’s she at??? w/ jacob? :P[/quote]

    Maybe Jacob can move the island, like he moves the cabin? THat would explain the continued supply drops as well, Jacob could just move the island back to where (and when?) the drops were to take place.

    Cool about the island scenes being flashbacks now.[/quote]

    —————-
    I think the drops continue to happen because someone is doing that for Desmond — either Penny or someone in the Ms. Hawking group.

    If Hugo can find Jacobs cabin then I think Hugo can find the island also. Hugo is the key to Jack getting back to the island.

  161. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="214250"]Anyone else notice that Widmore’s accent seemed different?
    Australian or South African or something.[/quote]

    It did sound different. And you are right about Australia AND South African*, because some words were one and some were the other. Of course, his British accent also seemed a bit off in past episodes, so maybe it is the actor and not a key to the plot.

    : ) P

    *this is a HUGE peeve of mine – like during the Outback commercials, when a man with a South African accent is touting the AUSTRALIAN restaurant. Hire a guy who can actually DO an Australian accent, or here is an idea – an ACTUAL Australian, for pete’s sake!

  162. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214260"]

    *this is a HUGE peeve of mine – like during the Outback commercials, when a man with a South African accent is touting the AUSTRALIAN restaurant. Hire a guy who can actually DO an Australian accent, or here is an idea – an ACTUAL Australian, for pete’s sake![/quote]
    Must be an artsy fartsy thing. They hire straight actors to play gays(Will and Grace), English folks to play Americans(House), etc. Is there a shortage of actors? No.

  163. lostrocks says:

    LOVED the episode!!! I’m extremely upset that Ben took advantage of Sayid in his moment of weakness after Nadia’s funeral.

    How did Ben get the cut on his arm? And since he traveled to Tunisia before, why was he so confused as to where he was in the middle of the desert? And there just happened to be two random guys on horseback?

    Is this episode the one where Jack gets hooked on painkillers? A thought…

    October 2005, what is the significance?

    Widmore must be immortal, Ben is not. Sayid knows about Penny and will never kill her, no matter what! Sayid has a heart…

    My thought: Michael killed the doctor, thrown overboard, and all is washed up to the island, like Des and his boat.

  164. Hammer says:

    After Ben got out played by Keamy, I noticed the big smirk Ben had when he got Sayid to “think it was his own idea” to join cause. He got his mojo back.

  165. Missy says:

    [quote comment="213962"]Oh, and “the island” is the key to the game.[/quote]

    Actually – I believe Hurley said that “Austrailia is the key to the whole game.” I don’t really know what that means. But I’m sure it has to mean something since that’s where all our losties left from ( :

  166. Missy says:

    [quote comment="213968"]Obvious teleportation. He was cold and wearing a jacket. Wasn’t that ice on his sleeve?

    Will Ben send Sayid to kill Penny?[/quote]
    __
    And did ben kill Nadia so that Sayid would help him with “his list” ?

  167. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214278"] Sayid knows about Penny and will never kill her, no matter what! Sayid has a heart…[/quote]
    Oh I disagree. Sayid has always been able to separate what “needs” to be done. His heart is broken by what he believes are Widmore’s actions. And if killing Penny is what is needed for revenge, I think he’ll do it.

  168. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214286"][quote comment="213968"]Obvious teleportation. He was cold and wearing a jacket. Wasn’t that ice on his sleeve?

    Will Ben send Sayid to kill Penny?[/quote]
    __
    And did ben kill Nadia so that Sayid would help him with “his list” ?[/quote]

    ++++++++++++
    Sure is possible. Why would Widmore have Nadia killed? Just because she married an O6? We need the back story.

  169. Missy says:

    [quote comment="213976"]OK, the long wait is over and new food for thought.

    So Ben is in Iraq in OCT 2005 and goes to London (either before or after that) to visit Charles Widmore to tell him he is going to kill Penelope (which we’ll assume he can accomplish at some point).

    It seemed like Widmore had control of the Island way back in the Dharma era (or before?), when he told Ben it had always been “his Island”. If so, how did he lose the location of it? Could the Island have been teleported to another location off of Widmore’s “radar” ?

    I knew Daniel was lying about the morse code and glad Bernard “busted” him. What’s his agenda, (or more likely) what is he going along with in deceiving Jack’s group ?

    And to close for now while I lay awake thinking, Sad to see Alex meet her demise. I didn’t think they would do that and I’m sure many of us will miss her.[/quote]
    ____
    I’m guessing that Widmore has been to the island and therefore can’t die (like Michael). Did anyone think that Widmore looked different and sounded different? He reminded me of Captain Gault in that scene. Maybe it was just the lighting. Anyway, it’s pretty clear that Widmore doesn’t care about the 815-ers at all. So I guess we are to assume that the island brought them there?

    I couldn’t believe they killed Alex. I was rocked when that happened. That is one girl who got prettier and prettier each time she was on screne – I hope she’s not gone for good ): RIP Alex.

  170. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214048"][quote comment="214035"][quote comment="214033"]the most pressing question for me tonight is what is ben? we have heard repeatedly that miles knew what he was. widmore knows what he is? what the ?#%* is he?!?! charles widmore is an anagram of chimeras weldor. can ben see thru him and vice versa? are the otherworldly disguised as human? makes me think of old legends about the faerie kingdom we see come up in some comic books.[/quote]
    Well we saw his birth, from humans off the island and only ended up on the island per chance. So I think they mean something metaphoric.[/quote]
    ————–

    we really don’t know that his mother (or laslo :) )was human and i dare say nothing happens surrounding ben by coincidence[/quote]

    ++++++++++++
    Not buying it at this point. There are several “special” characters and unless they are all extra terrestrial, I don’t think Ben is either.

  171. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214296"]
    I’m guessing that Widmore has been to the island and therefore can’t die (like Michael). Did anyone think that Widmore looked different and sounded different? He reminded me of Captain Gault in that scene. Maybe it was just the lighting. Anyway, it’s pretty clear that Widmore doesn’t care about the 815-ers at all. So I guess we are to assume that the island brought them there?[/quote]
    Are you saying that once you to the island, the leave you become immortal?

    Also, just because the 815 folks are expendable to Widmore doesn’t mean he didn’t set them up to be on the island. I just mean that now that he has found the island he doesn’t need the pawns anymore.

  172. Sawyer's Evil Twin says:

    I read that some of you think that Ben and Widmore had a pact to fight this fight without bringing families into it. If that was the case then Ben would have said ‘That’s my daughter, she’s off limits and you know it’. But he didn’t. He said she wasn’t his daughter. The rules changed but it had nothing to do with families.

  173. Missy says:

    My mind is still reeling after watching – but here are some things I have to comment on now that I don’t think were mentioned yet -

    Did anyone catch at the beginning Jack’s joke about prescibing himself antibiotics? He was holding his right-side, it looked like. Maybe he has appendicitis. That’s not a big deal in the real world – but if you don’t have all the medical supplies it would be very dangerous. Bening a doctor though, you’d think he’d know what was wrong with himself. Odd.

    The painting in Widmore’s hallway. It was like they WANTED us to see it. It was illuminated the whole time Ben was talking to Widmore. I think it was of the island.

    Miles seemed to get all spooky in the scene when he first came inside the house. Were there spirits in there? Hmm.

    Finally (for now) do you think that Ben’s giant scratch could be from a polar bear? It seemed all too coincidental that he’d show up in the same place that the polar bears showed up.

    That’s all for now. Keep the good ideas rolling!

  174. Lar says:

    Here in Denver, a commercial for the local news after Lost promoted an interview with the producers of Lost and said “find out what scene you wished you had watched closer”. Besides the obvious answer of “all of them”, anyone know what they might be referring to? When they said it they were showing the scene where Sawyer was (amazingly) dodging the gunfire while he tried to get to Claire. seemed weird to me that they shooters were able to pick off everyone coming out of the house with one shot, but couldn’t hit Sawyer.

  175. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214304"]I read that some of you think that Ben and Widmore had a pact to fight this fight without bringing families into it. If that was the case then Ben would have said ‘That’s my daughter, she’s off limits and you know it’. But he didn’t. He said she wasn’t his daughter. The rules changed but it had nothing to do with families.[/quote]

    You must be remembering it incorrectly. No one ever said anything about not being his daughter. It’s quite clear that killing Alex was the rule changer in Ben’s mind.

  176. RGS says:

    [quote comment="214288"][quote comment="214278"] Sayid knows about Penny and will never kill her, no matter what! Sayid has a heart…[/quote]
    Oh I disagree. Sayid has always been able to separate what “needs” to be done. His heart is broken by what he believes are Widmore’s actions. And if killing Penny is what is needed for revenge, I think he’ll do it.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^
    But wouldn’t that put Sayid on some “Psycho-killer” level? In the previous FF with Ben, he acts as if he is killing to protect the friends either on the mainland or on the island. So if he could kill Penny, his mindset would be something along the lines of, “they killed my wife, now I’m killing anyone who I think had any involvement in that.” It just doesn’t seem like he has that kind of separation of feelings, I mean he was caught up when he killed the German woman, as if he was sad that he had to do it, but then he could turn around and coldly kill Penny, who he know is the love of Desmond, who went through pretty much the same ordeals as he did to get to Nadia? That would be a bit too much compartmentalization (is that a word?).

  177. I heart Sawyer says:

    Okay, four things:
    I am saddened that those words “She is not my daughter” were the last that Alex heard. I really liked her character. Her and Russo will be missed! I hate Ben!

    I can’t believe Locke is so responsive to Ben even after all that he’s done to him. He still never found out why Ben shot him and left him for dead. Then he goes and threatens Sawyer, the man who killed his father for him just because Ben wants Hurley to take them to the cabin. Locke’s beginning to tick me off and he used to be my favorite.

    Thirdly, good call on the “Island won’t let Charles W. die” lostchicka. It makes sense!

    And lastly, the name on Ben’s puffy jacket when he mysteriously awoke in the dessert. Helliwax? Or something…isn’t his last name Linus??

  178. Hammer says:

    In rewatching Ben at the penthouse, he said “We both know I can’t do that.” when Charles asked if he was there to kill him. Maybe it’s not an issue of immortality as much as one of “rules” that Ben mentions. Maybe the island or Jacob or some higher power(fate?) will ruin Ben if he takes Widmore’s life?

  179. RGS says:

    [quote comment="214310"]Here in Denver, a commercial for the local news after Lost promoted an interview with the producers of Lost and said “find out what scene you wished you had watched closer”. Besides the obvious answer of “all of them”, anyone know what they might be referring to? When they said it they were showing the scene where Sawyer was (amazingly) dodging the gunfire while he tried to get to Claire. seemed weird to me that they shooters were able to pick off everyone coming out of the house with one shot, but couldn’t hit Sawyer.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^
    For no particular reason, I’m betting it was the scene with Smokey. We heard the chain’s rattling. Another weird thing though is if Ben can summon this thing all willy nilly, doesn’t seem like there is a need for gassing folks.

  180. lostrocks says:

    __
    And did ben kill Nadia so that Sayid would help him with “his list” ?[/quote]

    Oh my gosh!!! Ben DEFINITELY killed Nadia! He must have! He knew it all along, he needs Sayid for something. Jacob probably told Ben that he needs Sayid, like when Jacob told Ben that he “needs Hurley” to find the cabin.

  181. gnatalie says:

    Someone asked about the song Ben was playing on the piano. It was a Rachmaninoff prelude, I forget the number.

    Is there any possibility that Ben and Widmore are the same person, somehow?

    I think “the hostiles” on the island that Ben worked with to get rid of the Dharma folks are ghosts from the black rock ship. That’s probably been discussed before, but I’m new here!

  182. RGS says:

    [quote comment="214311"][quote comment="214304"]I read that some of you think that Ben and Widmore had a pact to fight this fight without bringing families into it. If that was the case then Ben would have said ‘That’s my daughter, she’s off limits and you know it’. But he didn’t. He said she wasn’t his daughter. The rules changed but it had nothing to do with families.[/quote]

    You must be remembering it incorrectly. No one ever said anything about not being his daughter. It’s quite clear that killing Alex was the rule changer in Ben’s mind.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^
    I think S.E.T. brings up a good point. If the rule was something about not killing folks close to you, or daughters, then Ben should have said something to the effect that S.E.T. stated, because that would have reminded Keamy that she is off limits.

    But in the show before, Ben was like, “these people if they knew who you were, they’d use you to get to me,” so the “rule” may not be that simple.

    There is some inconsistency with why killing Alex was a rule changer. The only rule I could think of right now, was maybe not to kill “innocent” folks.

  183. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214312"][quote comment="214288"][quote comment="214278"] Sayid knows about Penny and will never kill her, no matter what! Sayid has a heart…[/quote]
    Oh I disagree. Sayid has always been able to separate what “needs” to be done. His heart is broken by what he believes are Widmore’s actions. And if killing Penny is what is needed for revenge, I think he’ll do it.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^
    But wouldn’t that put Sayid on some “Psycho-killer” level? In the previous FF with Ben, he acts as if he is killing to protect the friends either on the mainland or on the island. So if he could kill Penny, his mindset would be something along the lines of, “they killed my wife, now I’m killing anyone who I think had any involvement in that.” It just doesn’t seem like he has that kind of separation of feelings, I mean he was caught up when he killed the German woman, as if he was sad that he had to do it, but then he could turn around and coldly kill Penny, who he know is the love of Desmond, who went through pretty much the same ordeals as he did to get to Nadia? That would be a bit too much compartmentalization (is that a word?).[/quote]

    +++++++
    We’ll have to agree to disagree because to me it’s obvious why Sayid is doing Ben’s dirty work and Penny would just be collateral damage…just like Libby and Ana were to Michael.

  184. Rita says:

    Wow, what an episode! Intense. A couple of thoughts:

    When Ben said “he changed the rules”, I thought he meant that JACOB changed the rules. Then he said to Widmore “you changed the rules”. Still not sure what that meant but it felt like it was something they had done before, and were now doing again only with changed rules. Again, not sure what that means.

    What was in Ben’s hand at the hotel, that he brought out while telling the nightwatchman “you can ring them up to check if you like”? As soon as the watchman said, “that won’t be necessary”, he withdrew it. What was it? It felt very starwars, when Obi Wan told the stormtroopers “these aren’t the droids you are looking for…”.

    I thought it was REALLY WEIRD that Miles RANG THE DOORBELL. Why wouldn’t he stand out there and shout “Hey it’s me, Miles. Don’t shoot!!! I have something for you, please open up and take the phone” or something like that?

    Someone wondered who was worse, Ben or Michael, for their efforts to save their son/daughter. I say Michael is worse: He basically said “screw you” to the losties in order to get what he wanted (Walt). Ben could have done that too, but knew that if they had him, the losties were toast. He tried to save them AND Alex. (By the way, who were the “red shirts” who got shot?)

    Ben really has some powerful connections! He had the traffic photo of baldi, very recently taken. He had the penthouse key to Widmore’s place. Who IS he?

    OK, one last question: If Ben can teleport through time, why not go BACK to BEFORE Alex was killed, and try to prevent the killing that way (like NOT sending her to the temple, or doing it earlier)? Why not find Penny in the PAST, when he knows where she is, if he wants to kill her? Why not take care of problems/people in the PAST when they aren’t watching out for him yet?

  185. lostrocks says:

    I loved the symbolism in Widmore’s Penthouse… First of all it was Ben in half of the screenshot, and the painting of the island in the other half.

    Ben’s face was clearly Black/White cut in half because of the lighting. This shows his good/bad personality and our confusion in the show. This could be a hint that he IS both good and bad.

    I think when Widmore talks about “knowing who you are” to Ben, he is referring to the fact that he is a normal person, son of a janitor, who became a janitor himself, and just killed everyone and took over the island. Widmore knows that he is “nobody” and has manipulated and killed his way to power on the island. Widmore is upset that Ben has come close and overtaken his power.

  186. DocH says:

    [quote comment="214310"]
    “find out what scene you wished you had watched closer”.
    [/quote]
    I think Sawyer was close enough to the corner of the house where they could not get a clean shot. The three that did get sniped were a little farther out. But I do like the idea that they were missing Sawyer – intentionally.

    I don’t which scene I wish I watched closer, but the Smokie Attack, ["over the tree line and into the woods, to Jacobs' house we go"] – those scenes usually have lots of hidden images buried in Smokie. We saw Smokie vault over a 30′ tree, race across camp to the shooters, etc… There has to be something in that.

    One thing that caught my eye was Alex at the sonic fence. We have been told it was turned-off for weeks now, so when she was turning off the fence AND activating the alarm code to Ben’s hotline, she was only just activating the alarm.

  187. RGS says:

    [quote comment="214319"][quote comment="214312"][quote comment="214288"][quote comment="214278"] Sayid knows about Penny and will never kill her, no matter what! Sayid has a heart…[/quote]
    Oh I disagree. Sayid has always been able to separate what “needs” to be done. His heart is broken by what he believes are Widmore’s actions. And if killing Penny is what is needed for revenge, I think he’ll do it.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^
    But wouldn’t that put Sayid on some “Psycho-killer” level? In the previous FF with Ben, he acts as if he is killing to protect the friends either on the mainland or on the island. So if he could kill Penny, his mindset would be something along the lines of, “they killed my wife, now I’m killing anyone who I think had any involvement in that.” It just doesn’t seem like he has that kind of separation of feelings, I mean he was caught up when he killed the German woman, as if he was sad that he had to do it, but then he could turn around and coldly kill Penny, who he know is the love of Desmond, who went through pretty much the same ordeals as he did to get to Nadia? That would be a bit too much compartmentalization (is that a word?).[/quote]

    +++++++
    We’ll have to agree to disagree because to me it’s obvious why Sayid is doing Ben’s dirty work and Penny would just be collateral damage…just like Libby and Ana were to Michael.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^
    Ok we can, agree to disagree, but just one more point. If Sayid always “knew” what needed to be done, Desmond should be dead. I mean there’s only enough juice in the phone for maybe one call, and Sayid says, “you know what, even though we need to get everyone rescued with a SOS call or a call to some kind of authority, I’m going to let Desmond call his long lost love, and we can take our chances later.” Desmond would just be collateral damage in that case right? (Rhetorical question).

  188. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214311"][quote comment="214304"]I read that some of you think that Ben and Widmore had a pact to fight this fight without bringing families into it. If that was the case then Ben would have said ‘That’s my daughter, she’s off limits and you know it’. But he didn’t. He said she wasn’t his daughter. The rules changed but it had nothing to do with families.[/quote]

    You must be remembering it incorrectly. No one ever said anything about not being his daughter. It’s quite clear that killing Alex was the rule changer in Ben’s mind.[/quote]

    +++++++++++++
    Never mind…you meant when talking to Keamy and I thought you meant when talking to Charles.

    But I still think it’s was obvious that killing Alex was the rule changer.

  189. Fara-dayo says:

    Something that no has mentioned yet! Remember that the island controls when people die. So people are saying that Ben “left his daughter out to dry”…well, that’s not necesarily true. “The Island” could have saved her.

    Am I way off here.

    Also, poor Jack…he was wrong and Locke was right (he’s gonna be p o ed about that).

  190. RAY says:

    I am saddened that those words “She is not my daughter” were the last that Alex heard.

    ===

    That’s what I’ve been trying to say with my other posts….but people keep trying to convince me that he was saying those things because he was trying to save her. I know WHY he was saying those things. By saying them he thought he could manipulate the situation. I just think it stinks for Alex. So sad.

  191. Fara-dayo says:

    [quote comment="214327"]I am saddened that those words “She is not my daughter” were the last that Alex heard.

    ===

    That’s what I’ve been trying to say with my other posts….but people keep trying to convince me that he was saying those things because he was trying to save her. I know WHY he was saying those things. By saying them he thought he could manipulate the situation. I just think it stinks for Alex. So sad.[/quote]

    As i just said though, we now know that ‘the island’ controls when people die…right? I think that knowledge will now change the whole dynamic of the series. I agree that it’s probably Widmore being on the island that Ben can’t kill him.

  192. RGS says:

    [quote comment="214320"]Wow, what an episode! Intense. A couple of thoughts:

    When Ben said “he changed the rules”, I thought he meant that JACOB changed the rules. Then he said to Widmore “you changed the rules”. Still not sure what that meant but it felt like it was something they had done before, and were now doing again only with changed rules. Again, not sure what that means.

    What was in Ben’s hand at the hotel, that he brought out while telling the nightwatchman “you can ring them up to check if you like”? As soon as the watchman said, “that won’t be necessary”, he withdrew it. What was it? It felt very starwars, when Obi Wan told the stormtroopers “these aren’t the droids you are looking for…”.

    I thought it was REALLY WEIRD that Miles RANG THE DOORBELL. Why wouldn’t he stand out there and shout “Hey it’s me, Miles. Don’t shoot!!! I have something for you, please open up and take the phone” or something like that?

    Someone wondered who was worse, Ben or Michael, for their efforts to save their son/daughter. I say Michael is worse: He basically said “screw you” to the losties in order to get what he wanted (Walt). Ben could have done that too, but knew that if they had him, the losties were toast. He tried to save them AND Alex. (By the way, who were the “red shirts” who got shot?)

    Ben really has some powerful connections! He had the traffic photo of baldi, very recently taken. He had the penthouse key to Widmore’s place. Who IS he?

    OK, one last question: If Ben can teleport through time, why not go BACK to BEFORE Alex was killed, and try to prevent the killing that way (like NOT sending her to the temple, or doing it earlier)? Why not find Penny in the PAST, when he knows where she is, if he wants to kill her? Why not take care of problems/people in the PAST when they aren’t watching out for him yet?[/quote]

    The thing in his hand was his little nightstick he beat the desert folks with.

  193. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214323"]
    +++++++
    We’ll have to agree to disagree because to me it’s obvious why Sayid is doing Ben’s dirty work and Penny would just be collateral damage…just like Libby and Ana were to Michael.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^
    Ok we can, agree to disagree, but just one more point. If Sayid always “knew” what needed to be done, Desmond should be dead. I mean there’s only enough juice in the phone for maybe one call, and Sayid says, “you know what, even though we need to get everyone rescued with a SOS call or a call to some kind of authority, I’m going to let Desmond call his long lost love, and we can take our chances later.” Desmond would just be collateral damage in that case right? (Rhetorical question).[/quote]

    +++++++++++++
    Dang it, you pulled me in! I didn’t mean “always knows” like a phycic. I meant in “battle” type situations, he knows what he has to do as an enforcer.
    Now that he is an enforcer for Ben, he would be able to separate and kill Penny because he thinks the cause is just.

  194. RGS says:

    Ok we can, agree to disagree, but just one more point. If Sayid always “knew” what needed to be done, Desmond should be dead. I mean there’s only enough juice in the phone for maybe one call, and Sayid says, “you know what, even though we need to get everyone rescued with a SOS call or a call to some kind of authority, I’m going to let Desmond call his long lost love, and we can take our chances later.” Desmond would just be collateral damage in that case right? (Rhetorical question).[/quote]

    +++++++++++++
    Dang it, you pulled me in! I didn’t mean “always knows” like a phycic. I meant in “battle” type situations, he knows what he has to do as an enforcer.
    Now that he is an enforcer for Ben, he would be able to separate and kill Penny because he thinks the cause is just.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^
    Lol, I didn’t mean like psychic either, I interpreted your take as Sayid always makes great judgment calls in tense situations. When they got to the phone, the only means to communicate, that would qualify as a tense situation in my book. But he relaxed that thought process so that Des could merely talk to Penny. Just disregarded the fact that he nor Des is a doctor and just took Des at his word.

    I mean I understand the role you are placing Sayid in, it’s just that it seems that killing the person directly responsible for his wife’s death would seem to end the revenge factor IMHO. So we are back to agreeing to disagree.

  195. GuttahMan says:

    Great ep….couple of things though….First off, i find it hard to believe everyones theory about time travel and portals, when Ben went into the the tunnel i think it was just to release “smokey”, no portal and no time traveling tunnel, just a way to unlease his secret weapon. When we see him in the Sahara there is no way to tell how he got there….for all we know he could have sailed there from the island on Desmonds boat (which would explain the the dharma coat, it tends to get cold out at sea) , somehow cut his arm and started wandering the desert looking for something and passed out due to exhaustion…to me this is more believable than time traveling.

    I also find it hard to believe that Ben and Alpert are some sort of E.T. We have a background story about Ben’s childhood, he was born, raised by his father, moved to the island and murdered all of the Dharma Initiative….that is why Widmore has this fued with Ben…from what i gathered from this Ep, Im guessing Widmore discovered the island, started the Dharma Initiative, Ben started a coup and cut all communications with Dharma and Widmore and now this war is to get control of the island and the losties are just casualties of war, with the exception of a few (Locke, and maybe Hurley).

    Lastly, I dont think Ben thought Alex would die, he obviously cares for her because even though he may not be her real father, he has raised her since she was a baby and looks at her as his own…He assumed Widmore would tell the mercs to keep family out of it, but that wasnt the case, thats why Ben was so devastated then remarked “he changed the rules”

    All in all I am still confused about Ben’s real motives, when he first spoke with Sayid i thought that Ben might actually be one of the good guys, but by the end of the Ep I was just as confused as i was before the Ep. This is easily one of the best Eps of the season though

  196. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214336"] So we are back to agreeing to disagree.[/quote]
    That’s too funny. Sometimes I find it hard to understand people’s meaning when it’s just text, no inflections or tones. :)

  197. GuttahMan says:

    Forgot to mention this before….

    I appreciate the fact that we finally get to see how Sayid starts working for Ben, that was one of my biggest questions this season….

    Rita, Comment 184……the thing in Ben’s hand was a Baton, the same one he used to hit the arabian guy that was searching him

  198. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214339"] This is easily one of the best Eps of the season though[/quote]
    I agree with your comments. Ben wasn’t time traveling, though I do think he has access to some sort of portal(maybe the Vile Vortices).

    I don’t think he’s ET either.

    I think as mention by folks before, the good vs. evil is all about perspective (think “V for Vendetta”).

  199. Polli Kovitch says:

    ALEX was ADOPTED. Who was the father? Widmore? Could Pennie be Alex’s sister? WHY would BEN adopt in the first place? To keep the Others “going”…children and babies seem to the ONLY commodity that BEN (and Juliet) value.

  200. DocH says:

    I am amazed at the Ben killed Nadia, & Sayid will kill Penelope, conversation going on.

    When did we make this huge leap. All we saw last night was Ben recruit Sayid. Though Ben giving a “knowing” look at the end of the scene implied that recruiting Sayid was the goal, that doesn’t mean that Ben had Nadia off-ed. And the assassin Sayid killed in the alley… I’m pretty sure he wasn’t in on the whole ‘recruit Sayid’ plan.

    Plus, just because Sayid is a hitman for Ben, why do we assume that he will be sent after Penelope? Ben runs lots of folks lives. I am sure he has someone that can fill in for Sayid, if Sayid wants to take some ‘personal time’ on ‘whack Penny day’.

  201. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="214322"]One thing that caught my eye was Alex at the sonic fence. We have been told it was turned-off for weeks now, so when she was turning off the fence AND activating the alarm code to Ben’s hotline, she was only just activating the alarm.[/quote]

    I know the whole “numbers” thing is getting old, at this point, but the numbers she entered were 16 23.

    : ) P

  202. docjock says:

    re: the obsession with children/pregnancy -

    The Valenzetti numbers are counting down to the end of the world

    The island will be the only safe haven for repopulation, IF they can get it to work

    The rest is just dressing

    * Aaron is the key

  203. wynn says:

    Just wondering, where are the children? They have not been mentioned and I do recall that some survived the crash and were kidnapped by The Others.

  204. Noah says:

    1. I think it is clear that Ben manipulated the entire recruiting process of Sayid. He has been shown to be a master at manipulation many times before.
    2. Miles rang the doorbell, because he is with the Army men. Ben makes a statement for them to go back to their helicopter and leave this island.
    3. In the last episode, the helicopter was “gone” on the boat. Sayid makes notice of this, remember? It was gone, because the Army men took it for their mission.
    4. Ben can talk to Smokie, but not necessarily control him. More than likely, they are on the same side… “protect the island”. Ben let’s Smokie know that outsiders are threatening the island, so Smokie comes and takes care of business. Why not sic Smokie on the Losties? Can it not go through the security fence? Food for thought…
    5. Have we ruled out that Ben did not “travel” to the desert the same way Desmond “traveled” to his past? Does Ben have a constant?

    Tis all. Cheers!

  205. RGS says:

    [quote comment="213976"]OK, the long wait is over and new food for thought.

    So Ben is in Iraq in OCT 2005 and goes to London (either before or after that) to visit Charles Widmore to tell him he is going to kill Penelope (which we’ll assume he can accomplish at some point).

    It seemed like Widmore had control of the Island way back in the Dharma era (or before?), when he told Ben it had always been “his Island”. If so, how did he lose the location of it? Could the Island have been teleported to another location off of Widmore’s “radar” ?

    I knew Daniel was lying about the morse code and glad Bernard “busted” him. What’s his agenda, (or more likely) what is he going along with in deceiving Jack’s group ?

    And to close for now while I lay awake thinking, Sad to see Alex meet her demise. I didn’t think they would do that and I’m sure many of us will miss her.[/quote]

    Was thinking about Dan’s deception and maybe because he knows about the time bubble around the island and how difficult it is to explain, is the reason why he just lied about the message. So even though the message said the Doc was ok, and they could see that he’s dead, Dan would know, “well there is some sort of time discrepancy, so the folks on the ship have no clue, and I can’t explain it thoroughly so I’ll just lie.”

  206. LOST Prophet says:

    An intense episode, it was. I’m convinced now that Ben is more of an asset than a liability. Ben and Locke make an unlikely duo but their efforts may be the Island’s only hope.

  207. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214322"][quote comment="214310"]
    “find out what scene you wished you had watched closer”.
    [/quote]
    I think Sawyer was close enough to the corner of the house where they could not get a clean shot. The three that did get sniped were a little farther out. But I do like the idea that they were missing Sawyer – intentionally.

    I don’t which scene I wish I watched closer, but the Smokie Attack, ["over the tree line and into the woods, to Jacobs' house we go"] – those scenes usually have lots of hidden images buried in Smokie. We saw Smokie vault over a 30′ tree, race across camp to the shooters, etc… There has to be something in that.

    One thing that caught my eye was Alex at the sonic fence. We have been told it was turned-off for weeks now, so when she was turning off the fence AND activating the alarm code to Ben’s hotline, she was only just activating the alarm.[/quote]

    —————-

    Either the writers couldn’t let Sawyer get shot for future story reasons or the shooters were told not to shoot Sawyer by Widmore. Could be that Sawyer was planted on the plane by Widmore who hopes to convince Sawyer to do his bidding somehow.

  208. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214344"]I am amazed at the Ben killed Nadia, & Sayid will kill Penelope, conversation going on.

    When did we make this huge leap. All we saw last night was Ben recruit Sayid. Though Ben giving a “knowing” look at the end of the scene implied that recruiting Sayid was the goal, that doesn’t mean that Ben had Nadia off-ed. And the assassin Sayid killed in the alley… I’m pretty sure he wasn’t in on the whole ‘recruit Sayid’ plan.

    Plus, just because Sayid is a hitman for Ben, why do we assume that he will be sent after Penelope? Ben runs lots of folks lives. I am sure he has someone that can fill in for Sayid, if Sayid wants to take some ‘personal time’ on ‘whack Penny day’.[/quote]

    Whoa…since when are theories are problem here?

    I agree that Ben having Nadia killed isn’t likely but it’s not a huge leap to think that Sayid might be the person he sends to kill Penny. They pretty much set us up to believe that by showing us how Ben recruited Sayid and showing us that Ben is after Penny in the same episode. I admit that it isn’t automatic…but it’s no huge leap.

  209. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214087"]I don’t think Ben would send Sayid to kill Penny because that would ruin the manipulation he has over Sayid. Sayid knows who Penny is in relation to Desmond. I don’t even think it’s a far leap to think that Desmond talked to Sayid about that on the freightor (off camera of course, because that would be a minor turn of events, that got compressed).

    Ben’s visit to Widmore very likely ocurred after he recruited Sayid, otherwise dude Ben was following, would have known who Ben was, as he would have probably had orders to kill him.

    I am not so sure we know that Ben travels through time. Perhaps the time of the bubble surrounding the island. The point that weakens that position is because he seemed confused as to the year. If he is able to travel through time, seems like he wouldn’t have been in shock when his daughter died. There’s just a lot of stuff that would not surprise him.

    So not understanding how Miles could be alive at this point, it’s like they’ve befriended him, and he keeps talkin’ ish about them getting killed. D&C needs to clean that up.

    I think the reason that Ben can’t kill Widmore hasn’t even been close to being revealed.

    Though I am unsure of how the Widmore/Hanso connection fits together because there is something not quite right about the supply drops continuing. Although a reason that the drops would continue is because Widmore needs Ben to stay alive in order to find the island.

    By the same token he has a general idea of where it is to make drops but can’t find the exact location? Part of the reason he can’t find the island though, is because Ben was jamming signals, etc. after the purge.

    It was a cool little episode though, more mysteries unearthed of course.[/quote]

    Ben can travel through space and time, but he can’t control what time he travels to. Why else would he be unsure as to what year it is?

  210. Polli Kovitch says:

    [quote comment="214354"][quote comment="214322"][quote comment="214310"]
    “find out what scene you wished you had watched closer”.
    [/quote]
    I think Sawyer was close enough to the corner of the house where they could not get a clean shot. The three that did get sniped were a little farther out. But I do like the idea that they were missing Sawyer – intentionally.

    I don’t which scene I wish I watched closer, but the Smokie Attack, ["over the tree line and into the woods, to Jacobs' house we go"] – those scenes usually have lots of hidden images buried in Smokie. We saw Smokie vault over a 30′ tree, race across camp to the shooters, etc… There has to be something in that.

    One thing that caught my eye was Alex at the sonic fence. We have been told it was turned-off for weeks now, so when she was turning off the fence AND activating the alarm code to Ben’s hotline, she was only just activating the alarm.[/quote]

    —————-

    Either the writers couldn’t let Sawyer get shot for future story reasons or the shooters were told not to shoot Sawyer by Widmore. Could be that Sawyer was planted on the plane by Widmore who hopes to convince Sawyer to do his bidding somehow.[/quote]

    Brilliant..regarding Sawyer. Each of the chessplayers now has knight to do his bidding…both past killers and present ones with obvious tension from the very beginning. Sawyer vs Sayid as “reps”.

  211. Polli Kovitch says:

    [quote comment="214354"][quote comment="214322"][quote comment="214310"]
    “find out what scene you wished you had watched closer”.
    [/quote]
    I think Sawyer was close enough to the corner of the house where they could not get a clean shot. The three that did get sniped were a little farther out. But I do like the idea that they were missing Sawyer – intentionally.

    I don’t which scene I wish I watched closer, but the Smokie Attack, ["over the tree line and into the woods, to Jacobs' house we go"] – those scenes usually have lots of hidden images buried in Smokie. We saw Smokie vault over a 30′ tree, race across camp to the shooters, etc… There has to be something in that.

    One thing that caught my eye was Alex at the sonic fence. We have been told it was turned-off for weeks now, so when she was turning off the fence AND activating the alarm code to Ben’s hotline, she was only just activating the alarm.[/quote]

    —————-

    Either the writers couldn’t let Sawyer get shot for future story reasons or the shooters were told not to shoot Sawyer by Widmore. Could be that Sawyer was planted on the plane by Widmore who hopes to convince Sawyer to do his bidding somehow.[/quote]

    Brilliant..regarding Sawyer. Each of the chessplayers (Ben and Widmore) now has a knight to do his bidding…both past killers and present ones with obvious tension from the very beginning. Sawyer vs Sayid as “reps”.

  212. RGS says:

    [/quote]

    Ben can travel through space and time, but he can’t control what time he travels to. Why else would he be unsure as to what year it is?[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^
    My take that he can’t travel through space and time (other than the bubble) stems from the belief that the writer’s (supposedly) are not bringing us that type of story. They seem fine with conscious traveling, but not the body itself.

    Hence, I think he stated the year so as to let the audience know when the time frame of the events are taking place.

  213. RGS says:

    [quote comment="214360"][/quote]

    Ben can travel through space and time, but he can’t control what time he travels to. Why else would he be unsure as to what year it is?[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^
    My take that he can’t travel through space and time (other than the bubble) stems from the belief that the writer’s (supposedly) are not bringing us that type of story. They seem fine with conscious traveling, but not the body itself.

    Hence, I think he stated the year so as to let the audience know when the time frame of the events are taking place.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^
    Moreover, if he couldn’t control where in time he was going to end up, it would be way to risky for him to ever go into whatever apparatus (if there is one) to do his “time travel” as he would have no earthly idea of when or where he would end up.

  214. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="214360"]I think he stated the year so as to let the audience know when the time frame of the events are taking place.[/quote]

    Not sure I buy that. I think that if the writers wanted us to know what date it was, they would have put one of those handy-dandy bank calendars on the desk at the hotel that said, “October 21, 2005.”

    I think it is more likely that Ben wanted to be sure he ended up in the time/place he had planned on.

    : ) P

  215. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214361"][quote comment="214360"][/quote]

    Ben can travel through space and time, but he can’t control what time he travels to. Why else would he be unsure as to what year it is?[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^
    My take that he can’t travel through space and time (other than the bubble) stems from the belief that the writer’s (supposedly) are not bringing us that type of story. They seem fine with conscious traveling, but not the body itself.

    Hence, I think he stated the year so as to let the audience know when the time frame of the events are taking place.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^
    Moreover, if he couldn’t control where in time he was going to end up, it would be way to risky for him to ever go into whatever apparatus (if there is one) to do his “time travel” as he would have no earthly idea of when or where he would end up.[/quote]

    Agreed. That is why I make the leap that maybe there is some sort of portal like the Vile Vortices to get off the island?

    Here is a weird one. If was traveling conciously, was maybe his 2005 body resting in state waiting for him to come back so he could properly recruit Sayid? Did he ask the date to make sure he arrived when he intended to?

    I still think there is something to him wearing Mr. Hallowax’s jacket too.

  216. DocH says:

    [quote comment="214356"]
    Whoa… since when are theories are problem here? … I admit that it isn’t automatic…but it’s no huge leap.
    [/quote]
    Nothing wrong with theories… but they are usually based on A + B = C. Even if A and B are right or wrong, you just don’t jump to C. You need supporting evidence. Here is my theory – Sayid assassinates Ben in the end because Ben manipulated him. No evidence to prove or suspect, therefore – a poor theory. [;^)

  217. James says:

    What an amazing episode! I have posted a recap, with a summary of the answers provided and the new questions raised, on my blog at http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2008/04/time-traveller-lost-in-sahara-desert.html

  218. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214365"][quote comment="214356"]
    Whoa… since when are theories are problem here? … I admit that it isn’t automatic…but it’s no huge leap.
    [/quote]
    Nothing wrong with theories… but they are usually based on A + B = C. Even if A and B are right or wrong, you just don’t jump to C. You need supporting evidence. Here is my theory – Sayid assassinates Ben in the end because Ben manipulated him. No evidence to prove or suspect, therefore – a poor theory.

    [;^)[/quote]

    Okay so you are saying that Ben recruits Sayid as a killer + Ben wants to kill Penny + Sayid shows he wants to help fight the battle is not enough circumstantial evidence to THEORIZE that Ben would use Sayid to kill Penny? And you think that is a huge leap?

  219. eve101 says:

    i think sector is right on every thing exept with sayid killing penny. and i think that the reson he was shocked that his daughter died was because he had been to the future and his daughter did not die. thats why he kept saying “he changed the rules.”

  220. Julie says:

    Okay.. so I know it looks like I haven’t been around in a while… I really have, just not commenting.
    SO, all I can right now is “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!” :)
    I had to go off on a 20min tangent as to why Ben CAN’T kill Penny! I’m over Kate/Jack/Sawyer… Des & Pen is all I have in a way of a love story to root for!
    The look on Ben’s face when (this is my new name for the army-ish guy) ‘Toothy’ shot Alex was GREAT! Seriously, whoever is in charge of casting is AMAZING!!
    I’m going to go read as many posts as I can…

  221. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214374"]i think sector is right on every thing exept with sayid killing penny. and i think that the reson he was shocked that his daughter died was because he had been to the future and his daughter did not die. thats why he kept saying “he changed the rules.”[/quote]
    What about the fact that in the future he says that Alex is dead and says that he’s going to kill Penny as well?

  222. Matt says:

    Yeah, Hurly said that Australia is the key to the game in Risk, but in LOST the Island is the key to the game. Thats what I mean. This episode is all about game and rules, and losing and winning.

  223. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214377"][quote comment="214374"]i think sector is right on every thing exept with sayid killing penny. and i think that the reson he was shocked that his daughter died was because he had been to the future and his daughter did not die. thats why he kept saying “he changed the rules.”[/quote]
    What about the fact that in the future he says that Alex is dead and says that he’s going to kill Penny as well?[/quote]

    +++++
    And Ben flat out tells Charles, “…once she’s dead…you’ll wish you hadn’t changed the rules.”

  224. SpinPapi says:

    [quote comment="213954"]There were WAY too many commercials, but on a positive note, NONE of them were for Eli Stone!

    : ) P[/quote]

    Amen to that, Brotha! (Or Sista!)

  225. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214361"][quote comment="214360"][/quote]

    Ben can travel through space and time, but he can’t control what time he travels to. Why else would he be unsure as to what year it is?[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^
    My take that he can’t travel through space and time (other than the bubble) stems from the belief that the writer’s (supposedly) are not bringing us that type of story. They seem fine with conscious traveling, but not the body itself.

    Hence, I think he stated the year so as to let the audience know when the time frame of the events are taking place.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^
    Moreover, if he couldn’t control where in time he was going to end up, it would be way to risky for him to ever go into whatever apparatus (if there is one) to do his “time travel” as he would have no earthly idea of when or where he would end up.[/quote]
    +_+_+__+_+_+_+_

    I think Ben asked the date because he came from the island with island time and just wasn’t sure of the “exchange rate” to real time. No necessarily time traveling but Moving from island time to real time.

  226. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214257"][quote comment="214189"][quote comment="213986"]yeah ben says widimore will never find the island (so what happened to his people that found the island?). and widimore says ben will never find penny – so where’s she at??? w/ jacob? :P[/quote]

    Maybe Jacob can move the island, like he moves the cabin? THat would explain the continued supply drops as well, Jacob could just move the island back to where (and when?) the drops were to take place.

    Cool about the island scenes being flashbacks now.[/quote]

    —————-
    I think the drops continue to happen because someone is doing that for Desmond — either Penny or someone in the Ms. Hawking group.

    If Hugo can find Jacobs cabin then I think Hugo can find the island also. Hugo is the key to Jack getting back to the island.[/quote]
    +_+_+_+_+_+

    I Don’t think Hugo can find the cabin. Ben leads them on there way. They take Hugo because Jacob will let hugo see the cabin. That might be the same with Hugo finding the Isalnd. Not that he knows where it is but the island will find him.

  227. Hammer says:

    Does anyone have a thought on the “specifically Uganda” comment that Ben made to Keamy when talking about his past?

  228. DocH says:

    [quote comment="214361"]
    Moreover, if he couldn’t control where in time he was going to end up, it would be way to risky for him to ever go into whatever apparatus (if there is one) to do his “time travel” as he would have no earthly idea of when or where he would end up.
    [/quote]
    Nice. That explains the parka. It is easier to shed a parka in the broiling desert, than to try and find one in the middle of the artcic, when you are wearing a tank-top, shorts and flip-flops.

  229. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214390"][quote comment="214361"]
    Moreover, if he couldn’t control where in time he was going to end up, it would be way to risky for him to ever go into whatever apparatus (if there is one) to do his “time travel” as he would have no earthly idea of when or where he would end up.
    [/quote]
    Nice. That explains the parka. It is easier to shed a parka in the broiling desert, than to try and find one in the middle of the artcic, when you are wearing a tank-top, shorts and flip-flops.[/quote]

    +_+_+_
    i was just thing that.

    I was brakeing down the senerois as to why the jacket.
    Coming from somewhere cold?
    Going to some place col?.
    The trip is cold?
    Or just best to be prepared if you don’t know where or when you are going to end up?

    One other thing-Ben being “dropped” off in the desert. Not long after he wakes up two Scouts find him. How did they know where he was and why did they get there so soon. Does being teleported make a noise or something visual.

  230. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214390"][quote comment="214361"]
    Moreover, if he couldn’t control where in time he was going to end up, it would be way to risky for him to ever go into whatever apparatus (if there is one) to do his “time travel” as he would have no earthly idea of when or where he would end up.
    [/quote]
    Nice. That explains the parka. It is easier to shed a parka in the broiling desert, than to try and find one in the middle of the artcic, when you are wearing a tank-top, shorts and flip-flops.[/quote]

    Here’s a poor theory (sorry DocH9(:) Ben was shivering and blew out (what looked to me like) frosted breath. Maybe he first dropped throug a Vortice to the Arctic DHARMA research site, then recalculated and dropped into Tunisia?

  231. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214389"]Does anyone have a thought on the “specifically Uganda” comment that Ben made to Keamy when talking about his past?[/quote]
    +_+_+_

    Did Ben give a Date when he said that?

  232. Bobbi says:

    Here are my thoughts:

    Ben comes back from tunnel very dirty, yes he was in ‘cave’ but still, he seemed full of soot. I know you say Smokey, but was he hugging Smokey? :) Geez.

    Ben was not at all afraid of Smokey, while he said goodbye to his daughter. However, he still insisted that Locke, Sawyer, etc..RUN. So perhaps he does control Smokey but only to a degree. Smokey won’t touch him, but can get the others?

    Daniel says something to the effect of “how long, is a relative term”. Well this is obvious, but what I find interesting is that he obviously knew more about the ‘time issue’ then previously let on. Before, he spoke of a possible discrepancy, this episode he didn’t seem shocked that there was a gap in time with doctor.

    Rose said in first season how the sounds from jungle reminded her of Bronx, and we often debate about underground system, etc. So wasn’t it interesting how Smokey looked very much like a subway out of control as he charged the freighter snipers?

    Sawyer and Claire split up from Ben and Lock, and don’t end up being party of O6. So perhaps that is how Aaron ends up with Kate. However, we know Ben and Hurley survive. I think Locke is manning the island in future, while Ben pursues revenge.

  233. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214392"][quote comment="214390"][quote comment="214361"]
    Moreover, if he couldn’t control where in time he was going to end up, it would be way to risky for him to ever go into whatever apparatus (if there is one) to do his “time travel” as he would have no earthly idea of when or where he would end up.
    [/quote]
    Nice. That explains the parka. It is easier to shed a parka in the broiling desert, than to try and find one in the middle of the artcic, when you are wearing a tank-top, shorts and flip-flops.[/quote]

    Here’s a poor theory (sorry DocH9(:) Ben was shivering and blew out (what looked to me like) frosted breath.

    Maybe he first dropped throug a Vortice to the Arctic DHARMA research site, then recalculated and dropped into Tunisia?[/quote]

    +++++++
    Might also explain the slash wound someone suggested might have been a polar bear.

  234. Bobbi says:

    I think that the ‘special places’ that the guy in Australia spoke about are like ‘stations’. Perhaps Ben can transport to and from those specific places. Maybe Penny had the two guys in snowsuits at one of the places, trying to find island. Where Ben dropped in desert, is that where Charlotte found polar bear skeleton?

    Also, could relate to Hurley/Sawyer Risk game, “Australia is the key to the whole game”.

  235. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214393"][quote comment="214389"]Does anyone have a thought on the “specifically Uganda” comment that Ben made to Keamy when talking about his past?[/quote]
    +_+_+_

    Did Ben give a Date when he said that?[/quote]

    ++++++
    No but he said it was after 2001 because he mentioned the military work that ended in 2001 and said “since then, blah blah…Uganda. So between 2001 and 2004.

  236. lost4ever says:

    Did anyone catch the different sounding “whoosh” when they first show Ben lying in the desert? There is steam coming off his body and a wound to his arm. Maybe the effects of the time travel does something to limbs, like Dr. Marvin Candle. Wasn’t he missing a limb?

  237. DocH says:

    [quote comment="214389"]
    Does anyone have a thought on the “specifically Uganda” comment that Ben made to Keamy when talking about his past?[/quote]
    - – - -
    That caught my ear too. I just assumed that was to establish Keamy’s bona fides, but…

    The biggest (recent) connection to mercenaries, in Uganda, that I can find, is in 2001-2002.

    They are known for; notorious human rights violations, defending cartels, oil and mineral exploitation…

    There are also adept at maritime operations & small vessel tactics, and the kicker, many have ties to, or are former – Scots Guard Regiment. (sound like anyone we know?)

  238. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214399"][quote comment="214389"]
    Does anyone have a thought on the “specifically Uganda” comment that Ben made to Keamy when talking about his past?[/quote]
    - – - -
    That caught my ear too. I just assumed that was to establish Keamy’s bona fides, but…

    The biggest (recent) connection to mercenaries, in Uganda, that I can find, is in 2001-2002.

    They are known for; notorious human rights violations, defending cartels, oil and mineral exploitation…

    There are also adept at maritime operations & small vessel tactics, and the kicker, many have ties to, or are former – Scots Guard Regiment. (sound like anyone we know?)[/quote]

    ++++++++++++++++
    More props to you!!! Even though you like to kick dirt in my face. :p.

    Thanks. I’m sure that’s was the hint to what Ben was saying…I know who you are and what you are capable of

  239. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214397"][quote comment="214393"][quote comment="214389"]Does anyone have a thought on the “specifically Uganda” comment that Ben made to Keamy when talking about his past?[/quote]
    +_+_+_

    Did Ben give a Date when he said that?[/quote]

    ++++++
    No but he said it was after 2001 because he mentioned the military work that ended in 2001 and said “since then, blah blah…Uganda. So between 2001 and 2004.[/quote]
    +_+_+_+__+_

    There might be something here.

    The insurgency flares (March 2002 to September 2005)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

  240. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214398"]Did anyone catch the different sounding “whoosh” when they first show Ben lying in the desert? There is steam coming off his body and a wound to his arm. Maybe the effects of the time travel does something to limbs, like Dr. Marvin Candle. Wasn’t he missing a limb?[/quote]
    ROTFL. “Please keep arms and legs inside until the ride comes to a complete stop…Thanks and have a wonderful day at Lostmania.”

  241. tdo says:

    Couple of comments

    “could the reason why ben cannot kill widimore be that the island won’t let him die? like michael couldn’t kill himself bcuz the island wouldn’t let him.”

    1. I think Widmore can’t be killed because he’s been to the island and it seems that people that have been to the island can’t be killed off-island (Michael, Jack on bridge etc). However we know they can be killed on island (Tom, as well as all the 815 survivors that died,Dharma massacre,etc).

    2. Is it possible that Widmore was actually on the crew of the Black Rock in the late 1800′s (therefore he “found” it first)? We know Alpert doesn’t seem to age and I think many suspect he was part of the original Black Rock crew. Also does that explain why he had such an interest in buying the crew member’s journal from the Black Rock?

    Of course that opens up a million questions like when and how did Widmore get off the island and did he change his name? Is that why he helped fund the Hanso Foundation’s work? I’m sure there are lots of holes in this theory as well.

  242. GuttahMan says:

    [quote comment="214397"][quote comment="214393"][quote comment="214389"]Does anyone have a thought on the “specifically Uganda” comment that Ben made to Keamy when talking about his past?[/quote]
    +_+_+_

    Did Ben give a Date when he said that?[/quote]

    ++++++
    No but he said it was after 2001 because he mentioned the military work that ended in 2001 and said “since then, blah blah…Uganda. So between 2001 and 2004.[/quote]

    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

    When Ben mentioned Uganda is right after Keamy said he would let everyone go once Ben steps outside…I think Keamy, being a merc, may have had a similar situation in Uganda but instead of letting the Ugandan people go he slaughtered them. Ben knows this therefore he knows that even if he were to surrender, Keamy would still kill the losties…I think that is what the Ugandan reference was pertaining to.

  243. DocH says:

    [quote comment="214395"]
    Here’s a poor theory:… Ben was shivering and blew out (what looked to me like) frosted breath.
    [/quote]
    No – a good theory. He surely popped in from the cold. The injury – probably not polar bear – but a struggle with Halliwax and his science buddies just to get into the portal (Looking Glass) device. BEN (aka Bug Eyed Ninja) chop-sakied his way thru the crowd with his handy telescoping baton, got to the controls, fired up the ‘way-back-change’, dove in and blasted off for who knows where. (sustaining the minor injury in the process.)

  244. Bobbi says:

    I read on another site about how Widmore spoke, in last night’s episode with an Australian accent. Until then he used a British accent. I certainly didn’t pick up on it, but I stink at accents, and never pay attention. Anyone notice this? Thoughts?

  245. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214407"][quote comment="214395"]
    Here’s a poor theory:… Ben was shivering and blew out (what looked to me like) frosted breath.
    [/quote]
    No – a good theory. He surely popped in from the cold. The injury – probably not polar bear – but a struggle with Halliwax and his science buddies just to get into the portal (Looking Glass) device. BEN (aka Bug Eyed Ninja) chop-sakied his way thru the crowd with his handy telescoping baton, got to the controls, fired up the ‘way-back-change’, dove in and blasted off for who knows where. (sustaining the minor injury in the process.)[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    I like it…except I think he was purposely heading toward the Middle East to meet up with Sayid. For the “big recruit” mission.

  246. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214409"]I read on another site about how Widmore spoke, in last night’s episode with an Australian accent. Until then he used a British accent. I certainly didn’t pick up on it, but I stink at accents, and never pay attention. Anyone notice this? Thoughts?[/quote]
    Just me…but I don’t there is anything to it other than a bad accent job. Otherwise, is the suggestion that there are more than one Charles? I doubt that is the case.

  247. Bruno says:

    [quote comment="214364"][quote comment="214361"][quote comment="214360"][/quote]

    Ben can travel through space and time, but he can’t control what time he travels to. Why else would he be unsure as to what year it is?[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^
    My take that he can’t travel through space and time (other than the bubble) stems from the belief that the writer’s (supposedly) are not bringing us that type of story. They seem fine with conscious traveling, but not the body itself.

    Hence, I think he stated the year so as to let the audience know when the time frame of the events are taking place.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^
    Moreover, if he couldn’t control where in time he was going to end up, it would be way to risky for him to ever go into whatever apparatus (if there is one) to do his “time travel” as he would have no earthly idea of when or where he would end up.[/quote]

    Agreed. That is why I make the leap that maybe there is some sort of portal like the Vile Vortices to get off the island?

    Here is a weird one. If was traveling conciously, was maybe his 2005 body resting in state waiting for him to come back so he could properly recruit Sayid? Did he ask the date to make sure he arrived when he intended to?

    I still think there is something to him wearing Mr. Hallowax’s jacket too.[/quote]
    ——————
    And because he does not know where he will end up, this explains why he needs all those different currencies and passports we saw in an earlier show. Where ever you “pop in”, you first look around, figure out where you are, ask what date it is, and then take a flight or travel to your real destinations (be it London or LA)

  248. Hammer says:

    Hey, with Sawyer’s new fondness for Claire, what about the big kiss being those two…that would complicate the triangle a bit eh?

  249. lostgrrl says:

    A thought about Jack… This ep was the first time that he started having that hopeless look on his face ON THE ISLAND… the same look that he constantly has on the FFs. Hopeless… anguished… lost.

    In this ep he blamed it on a stomach ache (and for which he started taking meds that he’s hooked on in the future, as someone else said). And this look of anguish began BEFORE he was told that the people on the boat were never there to rescue them. What’s with Jack’s stomach, anyway?

  250. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214415"]A thought about Jack… This ep was the first time that he started having that hopeless look on his face ON THE ISLAND… the same look that he constantly has on the FFs. Hopeless… anguished… lost.

    In this ep he blamed it on a stomach ache (and for which he started taking meds that he’s hooked on in the future, as someone else said). And this look of anguish began BEFORE he was told that the people on the boat were never there to rescue them. What’s with Jack’s stomach, anyway?[/quote]

    I’m stumped on the stomach thing. But the anguish I feel is because Jack is quickly realizing that he is wrong and feels like he won’t be able to save everyone. He is realizing that it way bigger than anything he can do.

  251. RGS says:

    ——————
    And because he does not know where he will end up, this explains why he needs all those different currencies and passports we saw in an earlier show. Where ever you “pop in”, you first look around, figure out where you are, ask what date it is, and then take a flight or travel to your real destinations (be it London or LA)[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I believe he knows where he’ll end up when entering the teleporting device (TD) if it exists. Otherwise, he would have had a pocket full of passports, currency, etc., becuz he’d have to carry it around.

    I initially thought that the mark on the jacket was a bullet grazing his arm. Like someone was shooting at him as he entered the TD.

  252. lost4ever says:

    I love how ABC misled us with their episode preview from yesterday. “Jack tries to discover the identity of a body that has washed ashore.” Faraday told Jack who it was when he first saw him.

  253. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214411"][quote comment="214409"]I read on another site about how Widmore spoke, in last night’s episode with an Australian accent. Until then he used a British accent. I certainly didn’t pick up on it, but I stink at accents, and never pay attention. Anyone notice this? Thoughts?[/quote]
    Just me…but I don’t there is anything to it other than a bad accent job. Otherwise, is the suggestion that there are more than one Charles? I doubt that is the case.[/quote]

    +_+_+_+_+_+

    I did notice something different in his voice, but i took it as him just changing his tone to get a point across.

  254. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="214411"][quote comment="214409"]I read on another site about how Widmore spoke, in last night’s episode with an Australian accent. Until then he used a British accent. I certainly didn’t pick up on it, but I stink at accents, and never pay attention. Anyone notice this? Thoughts?[/quote]
    Just me…but I don’t there is anything to it other than a bad accent job. Otherwise, is the suggestion that there are more than one Charles? I doubt that is the case.[/quote]

    Check posts 158, 161 and 162.

    : ) P

  255. DocH says:

    [quote comment="214421"]
    Just me… but I don’t there is anything to it other than a bad accent job.
    [/quote]
    Alan Dale (Widmore) is from NEW ZEALAND. And he spends lots of time in the UK, acting on stage.
    His breaks in ‘English’ accent show his KIWI background… which can be sometimes be mistaken for Australia, South African, etc…

  256. Pastor2churches says:

    Ben knew what he was doing and that Alex would be killed. Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but I do believe that Ben sacrificed his daugther to save the Island. He will stop at nothing to “save” the Island, and did offer up his only daugher to save it from “them.”

  257. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214402"][quote comment="214397"][quote comment="214393"][quote comment="214389"]Does anyone have a thought on the “specifically Uganda” comment that Ben made to Keamy when talking about his past?[/quote]
    +_+_+_

    Did Ben give a Date when he said that?[/quote]

    ++++++
    No but he said it was after 2001 because he mentioned the military work that ended in 2001 and said “since then, blah blah…Uganda. So between 2001 and 2004.[/quote]
    +_+_+_+__+_

    There might be something here.

    The insurgency flares (March 2002 to September 2005)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army%5B/quote%5D

    +_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_

    The novel The Wild Geese by Daniel Carney and the film (1978) with the same name. The plot is that a global British financial syndicate seeks to rescue the deposed leader of a central African nation. It hires a band of mercenaries to do the job.

  258. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214424"]Ben knew what he was doing and that Alex would be killed. Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but I do believe that Ben sacrificed his daugther to save the Island. He will stop at nothing to “save” the Island, and did offer up his only daugher to save it from “them.”[/quote]
    Couldn’t disagree more, see all the comments about the rule change and evidence of needing revenge. The dynamics of the battle for island have changed because of this event. He actually went off the island an into Widmore’s house over it. He used to send pawns off the island for dirty work. He is now guilt ridden and wants to avenge her death.

  259. lost4ever says:

    I wonder who Sayid is after in the episode “THE ECONOMIST”? I thought it was Widmore, but not anymore.

  260. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214426"][quote comment="214402"][quote comment="214397"][quote comment="214393"][quote comment="214389"]Does anyone have a thought on the “specifically Uganda” comment that Ben made to Keamy when talking about his past?[/quote]
    +_+_+_

    Did Ben give a Date when he said that?[/quote]

    ++++++
    No but he said it was after 2001 because he mentioned the military work that ended in 2001 and said “since then, blah blah…Uganda. So between 2001 and 2004.[/quote]
    +_+_+_+__+_

    There might be something here.

    The insurgency flares (March 2002 to September 2005)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army%5B/quote%5D

    +_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_

    The novel The Wild Geese by Daniel Carney and the film (1978) with the same name. The plot is that a global British financial syndicate seeks to rescue the deposed leader of a central African nation. It hires a band of mercenaries to do the job.[/quote]

    Good stuff…thanks.

  261. Sheppard says:

    How much do Miles, Faraday, and Lewis know about Whitmore and the hidden objective of the mission? Would they really be ok with the slaughter of the Losties? Faraday was concerned with saving Desmond so he seems to be a stand up sort of guy. But he told Jack that they would not be rescued so he appears to have some knowledge of what the freighter is really after. And if Faraday is just interested in understanding the scientific mysteries of the island, why would Whitmore or the captain even trust him with the real reason for the mission? Just tell him to collect his data and not to ask questions.

  262. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214428"]I wonder who Sayid is after in the episode “THE ECONOMIST”? I thought it was Widmore, but not anymore.[/quote]
    Why not? This FF just showed why he is being recruited. It didn’t change who Ben is battling.

  263. Sheppard says:

    [quote comment="214428"]I wonder who Sayid is after in the episode “THE ECONOMIST”? I thought it was Widmore, but not anymore.[/quote]

    Maybe Penny is the target.

  264. Sheppard says:

    [quote comment="214432"][quote comment="214428"]I wonder who Sayid is after in the episode “THE ECONOMIST”? I thought it was Widmore, but not anymore.[/quote]
    Why not? This FF just showed why he is being recruited.

    It didn’t change who Ben is battling.[/quote]

    But Ben didn’t have any problem finding Whitmore and could have killed him if he wanted, but said that he couldn’t.

  265. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214431"]How much do Miles, Faraday, and Lewis know about Whitmore and the hidden objective of the mission?

    Would they really be ok with the slaughter of the Losties? Faraday was concerned with saving Desmond so he seems to be a stand up sort of guy. But he told Jack that they would not be rescued so he appears to have some knowledge of what the freighter is really after.

    And if Faraday is just interested in understanding the scientific mysteries of the island, why would Whitmore or the captain even trust him with the real reason for the mission?

    Just tell him to collect his data and not to ask questions.[/quote]
    We touched on this in the past. Widmore used them to get to the island to set up the attack. Who knows what else they were promised, but they would likely just be expendable pawns that Widmore would kill off to get rid of “risks” once he gets the island back. It’s a common MO for power tyrant stories.

  266. lost4ever says:

    My 2 favorite lines from the show

    1. Sawyer in the house “Who’s Charles Widmore?”
    Locke replies “Later”
    2. Benjamin in Widmore’s penthouse “Im here Charles because you murdered my daughter”
    Widmore replies “Don’t stand there looking at me with those horrible eyes of yours”

  267. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214434"][quote comment="214432"][quote comment="214428"]I wonder who Sayid is after in the episode “THE ECONOMIST”? I thought it was Widmore, but not anymore.[/quote]
    Why not? This FF just showed why he is being recruited.

    It didn’t change who Ben is battling.[/quote]

    But Ben didn’t have any problem finding Whitmore and could have killed him if he wanted, but said that he couldn’t.[/quote]
    Right, as I mentioned earlier…Ben actually said “we both know I can’t do that”. I think there is reason why BEN can’t, but maybe someone else can.

  268. Pastor2churches says:

    Hammer wrote,

    “Couldn’t disagree more, see all the comments about the rule change and evidence of needing revenge. The dynamics of the battle for island have changed because of this event. He actually went off the island an into Widmore’s house over it. He used to send pawns off the island for dirty work. He is now guilt ridden and wants to avenge her death.”

    I agree – sort of – I fully understand that Ben is deeply angered over the death of his daughter. And yes, her death does change the rules. Now will Widmore’s daughter have to die like unto did Ben’s – “you’ll see how I feel” – which action will agian bring the battle into harmony. Ben knows the cost of keeping the island in a very personal way; Charles needs to know that same cost.

  269. jaime says:

    [quote comment="214407"][quote comment="214395"]
    Here’s a poor theory:… Ben was shivering and blew out (what looked to me like) frosted breath.
    [/quote]
    No – a good theory. He surely popped in from the cold. The injury – probably not polar bear – but a struggle with Halliwax and his science buddies just to get into the portal (Looking Glass) device. BEN (aka Bug Eyed Ninja) chop-sakied his way thru the crowd with his handy telescoping baton, got to the controls, fired up the ‘way-back-change’, dove in and blasted off for who knows where. (sustaining the minor injury in the process.)[/quote]
    ######################################
    I think maybe Marvin Candle/Hallowax/Wickman had stuff(parka) in the Orchid station. The Orchid is the “tele-port” station. The journey from “here to there” is a cold one hence the parka. Also, Ben seemed surprised by the injury as though he had got in during the “trip” . There was a tear in the jacket as well.

  270. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214439"]Hammer wrote,

    “Couldn’t disagree more, see all the comments about the rule change and evidence of needing revenge. The dynamics of the battle for island have changed because of this event. He actually went off the island an into Widmore’s house over it. He used to send pawns off the island for dirty work. He is now guilt ridden and wants to avenge her death.”

    I agree – sort of – I fully understand that Ben is deeply angered over the death of his daughter. And yes, her death does change the rules. Now will Widmore’s daughter have to die like unto did Ben’s – “you’ll see how I feel” – which action will agian bring the battle into harmony. Ben knows the cost of keeping the island in a very personal way; Charles needs to know that same cost.[/quote]

    ++++++++++++++
    Then there is no net gain for sacrificing his daughter if all killing Penny does it make it equal. Hence, he didn’t mean for her to die.

  271. DocH says:

    [quote comment="214410"]
    I like it… except I think he was purposely heading toward the Middle East to meet up with Sayid. For the “big recruit” mission.
    [/quote]
    1. Parka was worn for where Ben was – not where he was going. (Yes/No)? Me=Yes

    2. Ben knew that he would arrive somewhere near (Tozour) Tunisia (within a couple of dozen miles). (Yes/No)? Me=Yes

    3. Ben thought he knew when he would arrive in Tunisia, give or take a few days or weeks. (Yes/No)? Me=Yes caveat: he asked the year just to make sure he hadn’t massively screwed-up.

    4. Ben went to the middle-east purposely (via the Tunisia portal) just to recruit Sayid. (Yes/No)? Me=NO(ish). Explanation. Tozour is 2100 miles from Tikrit (Nadia funeral). Most of the Med lies between the two places. Now that may be the closet portal to Tikrit, but, it may be thee only portal he had available to him to pop out of. Guessing there is a portal in or near the US, the one on the island, and the polar one – if the island or US portal were under hostile (Widmore) control, and he was losing control of the polar portal, as evidenced by his bodily injuries, the Tunisian portal may just be his version of diving out the back door at the last minute. The Nadia murder in SoCal was 3 weeks before Tikrit. Ben in Tunisia should have been well before that. He got his act together there, headed to the States, investigated (or caused) Nadia’s demise, then headed out to recruit Sayid.

    (Someone smarter than me pointed out that we suspect Ben in the bus running over Juliet’s ex-husband, in order to recruit her. Now Nadia is taken out by a car… in order to recruit Sayid? – Now we have a theory a-brew’n)

  272. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214435"][quote comment="214431"]How much do Miles, Faraday, and Lewis know about Whitmore and the hidden objective of the mission?

    Would they really be ok with the slaughter of the Losties? Faraday was concerned with saving Desmond so he seems to be a stand up sort of guy. But he told Jack that they would not be rescued so he appears to have some knowledge of what the freighter is really after.

    And if Faraday is just interested in understanding the scientific mysteries of the island, why would Whitmore or the captain even trust him with the real reason for the mission?

    Just tell him to collect his data and not to ask questions.[/quote]
    We touched on this in the past. Widmore used them to get to the island to set up the attack. Who knows what else they were promised, but they would likely just be expendable pawns that Widmore would kill off to get rid of “risks” once he gets the island back. It’s a common MO for power tyrant stories.[/quote]

    +_+_+++_+_+

    Yeah i remember that. He dangled something in front of each of them- Miles=money, Daniel= answer to his research and the same for Juliet i think. That gets them on the island as a diversion then the Mercs go in.

  273. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214440"][quote comment="214407"][quote comment="214395"]
    Here’s a poor theory:… Ben was shivering and blew out (what looked to me like) frosted breath.
    [/quote]
    No – a good theory. He surely popped in from the cold. The injury – probably not polar bear – but a struggle with Halliwax and his science buddies just to get into the portal (Looking Glass) device. BEN (aka Bug Eyed Ninja) chop-sakied his way thru the crowd with his handy telescoping baton, got to the controls, fired up the ‘way-back-change’, dove in and blasted off for who knows where. (sustaining the minor injury in the process.)[/quote]
    ######################################
    I think maybe Marvin Candle/Hallowax/Wickman had stuff(parka) in the Orchid station. The Orchid is the “tele-port” station. The journey from “here to there” is a cold one hence the parka. Also, Ben seemed surprised by the injury as though he had got in during the “trip” . There was a tear in the jacket as well.[/quote]
    Damn, I knew I was forgetting something. We know that the Orchid does something special because of the duplicate no#15 bunny. Way to stay on it jaime.

  274. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="214438"][quote comment="214434"][quote comment="214432"][quote comment="214428"]I wonder who Sayid is after in the episode “THE ECONOMIST”? I thought it was Widmore, but not anymore.[/quote]
    Why not? This FF just showed why he is being recruited.

    It didn’t change who Ben is battling.[/quote]

    But Ben didn’t have any problem finding Whitmore and could have killed him if he wanted, but said that he couldn’t.[/quote]
    Right, as I mentioned earlier…Ben actually said “we both know I can’t do that”. I think there is reason why BEN can’t, but maybe someone else can.[/quote]
    ——————-
    Good point Hammer. A king can’t take out a king. You need a different chesspiece.

  275. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214443"][quote comment="214435"][quote comment="214431"]How much do Miles, Faraday, and Lewis know about Whitmore and the hidden objective of the mission?

    Would they really be ok with the slaughter of the Losties? Faraday was concerned with saving Desmond so he seems to be a stand up sort of guy. But he told Jack that they would not be rescued so he appears to have some knowledge of what the freighter is really after.

    And if Faraday is just interested in understanding the scientific mysteries of the island, why would Whitmore or the captain even trust him with the real reason for the mission?

    Just tell him to collect his data and not to ask questions.[/quote]
    We touched on this in the past. Widmore used them to get to the island to set up the attack. Who knows what else they were promised, but they would likely just be expendable pawns that Widmore would kill off to get rid of “risks” once he gets the island back. It’s a common MO for power tyrant stories.[/quote]

    +_+_+++_+_+

    Yeah i remember that. He dangled something in front of each of them- Miles=money, Daniel= answer to his research and the same for Juliet i think. That gets them on the island as a diversion then the Mercs go in.[/quote]

    ++++++++
    I assume you meant Charlotte Lewis and not Juliet, but yes. Abbadon and Naomi were using these pawns/experts to get to the island, “soften” the target and set up for Keamy and his crew.

  276. Pastor2churches says:

    Ben sacrificed his daughter. Let me try this one more time (and I do appreciate your interaction!) I have been saying that Ben sacrificed his daughter for the benefit of the Island. In saying that I did NOT say, 1) That he meant for her to die, 2) that he wanted her to die. He gave her up (allowed her death) to save the Island. Now he will attempt to enact retribution upon Widmore so that Charles will “feel what it is like to lose a daughter.” Ben will do whatever it takes to keep the Island SAFE.

  277. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214446"][quote comment="214438"][quote comment="214434"][quote comment="214432"][quote comment="214428"]I wonder who Sayid is after in the episode “THE ECONOMIST”? I thought it was Widmore, but not anymore.[/quote]
    Why not? This FF just showed why he is being recruited.

    It didn’t change who Ben is battling.[/quote]

    But Ben didn’t have any problem finding Whitmore and could have killed him if he wanted, but said that he couldn’t.[/quote]
    Right, as I mentioned earlier…Ben actually said “we both know I can’t do that”. I think there is reason why BEN can’t, but maybe someone else can.[/quote]
    ——————-
    Good point Hammer. A king can’t take out a king. You need a different chesspiece.[/quote]

    +_+_+_+__+_
    But if there changing rule would that still apply

  278. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="214446"][quote comment="214438"]
    Right, as I mentioned earlier…Ben actually said “we both know I can’t do that”. I think there is reason why BEN can’t, but maybe someone else can.[/quote]
    ———-
    But then again, why did Ben know that Keamy and CO., would not kill him? They were there to capture him. He told Locke the safest place was with him.

  279. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214446"][quote comment="214438"][quote comment="214434"][quote comment="214432"][quote comment="214428"]I wonder who Sayid is after in the episode “THE ECONOMIST”? I thought it was Widmore, but not anymore.[/quote]
    Why not? This FF just showed why he is being recruited.

    It didn’t change who Ben is battling.[/quote]

    But Ben didn’t have any problem finding Whitmore and could have killed him if he wanted, but said that he couldn’t.[/quote]
    Right, as I mentioned earlier…Ben actually said “we both know I can’t do that”. I think there is reason why BEN can’t, but maybe someone else can.[/quote]
    ——————-
    Good point Hammer. A king can’t take out a king. You need a different chesspiece.[/quote]

    +++++++++++
    What I am noticing is that Jacob is not doing the fighting and neither is Widmore. Ben is an extension of Jacob and maybe his “status” makes it not possible?

    Going back to DocH’s idea of mob like rules…the top guys are “untouchables” to each other, but if a rogue underling makes a play? Rambling….

  280. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214448"]Ben sacrificed his daughter. Let me try this one more time (and I do appreciate your interaction!) I have been saying that Ben sacrificed his daughter for the benefit of the Island. In saying that I did NOT say, 1) That he meant for her to die, 2) that he wanted her to die. He gave her up (allowed her death) to save the Island. Now he will attempt to enact retribution upon Widmore so that Charles will “feel what it is like to lose a daughter.” Ben will do whatever it takes to keep the Island SAFE.[/quote]
    _+_+_+_+_+_+_

    Leaving the island to tell Widmore that he is going to kill his daughter would put the Island in more danger.

  281. GuttahMan says:

    [quote comment="214416"][quote comment="214415"]A thought about Jack… This ep was the first time that he started having that hopeless look on his face ON THE ISLAND… the same look that he constantly has on the FFs. Hopeless… anguished… lost.

    In this ep he blamed it on a stomach ache (and for which he started taking meds that he’s hooked on in the future, as someone else said). And this look of anguish began BEFORE he was told that the people on the boat were never there to rescue them. What’s with Jack’s stomach, anyway?[/quote]

    I’m stumped on the stomach thing. But the anguish I feel is because Jack is quickly realizing that he is wrong and feels like he won’t be able to save everyone. He is realizing that it way bigger than anything he can do.[/quote]

    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

    IN the previews for next weeks Ep, juliet says that Jacks Apendix ruptured, so its not necessarily his stomach…..Sorry if this is a spoiler for anyone, but it was in the previews

  282. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214448"]Ben sacrificed his daughter. Let me try this one more time (and I do appreciate your interaction!) I have been saying that Ben sacrificed his daughter for the benefit of the Island. In saying that I did NOT say, 1) That he meant for her to die, 2) that he wanted her to die. He gave her up (allowed her death) to save the Island. Now he will attempt to enact retribution upon Widmore so that Charles will “feel what it is like to lose a daughter.” Ben will do whatever it takes to keep the Island SAFE.[/quote]
    Gotcha, but still disagree. There was obvious “shock and awe” in Ben when Keamy shot Alex. He IMO did not sacrifice her. Right up to the very moment she was shot, he thought he was in control and she wouldn’t be hurt because of the “rules”. Therefore no sacrifice, but she was taken.

  283. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="214453"][quote comment="214416"][quote comment="214415"]A thought about Jack… This ep was the first time that he started having that hopeless look on his face ON THE ISLAND… the same look that he constantly has on the FFs. Hopeless… anguished… lost.

    In this ep he blamed it on a stomach ache (and for which he started taking meds that he’s hooked on in the future, as someone else said). And this look of anguish began BEFORE he was told that the people on the boat were never there to rescue them. What’s with Jack’s stomach, anyway?[/quote]

    I’m stumped on the stomach thing. But the anguish I feel is because Jack is quickly realizing that he is wrong and feels like he won’t be able to save everyone. He is realizing that it way bigger than anything he can do.[/quote]

    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

    IN the previews for next weeks Ep, juliet says that Jacks Apendix ruptured, so its not necessarily his stomach…..Sorry if this is a spoiler for anyone, but it was in the previews[/quote]
    —————
    DocH are you gonna grab this one? Please read point 4 below. “No spoilers or discussion of episode previews”.

  284. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214452"][quote comment="214448"]Ben sacrificed his daughter. Let me try this one more time (and I do appreciate your interaction!) I have been saying that Ben sacrificed his daughter for the benefit of the Island. In saying that I did NOT say, 1) That he meant for her to die, 2) that he wanted her to die. He gave her up (allowed her death) to save the Island. Now he will attempt to enact retribution upon Widmore so that Charles will “feel what it is like to lose a daughter.” Ben will do whatever it takes to keep the Island SAFE.[/quote]
    _+_+_+_+_+_+_

    Leaving the island to tell Widmore that he is going to kill his daughter would put the Island in more danger.[/quote]

    +++++++++++
    Exactly what I meant the dynamics of the battle have changed. If Locke is in charge and capable…Ben is still taking a big risk by leaving to exact revenge.

  285. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214453"][quote comment="214416"][quote comment="214415"]A thought about Jack… This ep was the first time that he started having that hopeless look on his face ON THE ISLAND… the same look that he constantly has on the FFs. Hopeless… anguished… lost.

    In this ep he blamed it on a stomach ache (and for which he started taking meds that he’s hooked on in the future, as someone else said). And this look of anguish began BEFORE he was told that the people on the boat were never there to rescue them. What’s with Jack’s stomach, anyway?[/quote]

    I’m stumped on the stomach thing. But the anguish I feel is because Jack is quickly realizing that he is wrong and feels like he won’t be able to save everyone. He is realizing that it way bigger than anything he can do.[/quote]

    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

    IN the previews for next weeks Ep, juliet says that Jacks Apendix ruptured, so its not necessarily his stomach…..Sorry if this is a spoiler for anyone, but it was in the previews[/quote]

    +++++++++++++++
    This is where DocH and I agree, rule #4. Certainly not in this read!

  286. lost4ever says:

    When I first heard the NEW “whoosh” and saw the steam coming from Ben in the desert, all I could think of was Doc Brown and the flux copacitor ( spellcheck). I cant wait till they show us the Delorean that Ben used.

  287. Courtney says:

    @ 101 & 103 — I got the same impressions as you, but I first thought of Professor Xavier and Magneto. Like they maybe started as friends and became rivals. Only, I’m not sure which one’s Prof. X and which one is Magneto.

    @ 123 — The food drops have been bugging me for a while. If the island is so hard to find AND get to, how are the food drops possible? And if Widmore were in charge of Dharma, wouldn’t he then know where the island is because he’d know where the food drops go? Someone else mentioned that perhaps Jacob can move the island and simply moves it to the food drop location, but then Widmore could accompany the food drop pilots and lay in wait of the island coming back. Of course, my theory is faulty here, too — it would probably be a bad idea for Widmore to just drop in on his lonesome.

    Hmmm…

  288. Sheppard says:

    Whitmore said that Ben was trying to find a way to the island. Is Ben trapped off the island, but still trying to protect it? Will he and Jack make it back to the island together?

  289. Sheppard says:

    [quote comment="214459"]@ 101 & 103 — I got the same impressions as you, but I first thought of Professor Xavier and Magneto. Like they maybe started as friends and became rivals. Only, I’m not sure which one’s Prof. X and which one is Magneto.
    quote]

    I think they are both like Magneto and Jack is Prof. X.

  290. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="214462"]Whitmore said that Ben was trying to find a way to the island.

    Is Ben trapped off the island, but still trying to protect it? Will he and Jack make it back to the island together?[/quote]
    I didnt catch Widmore saying that to Ben. When did that happen?

  291. Sheppard says:

    [quote comment="214459"]@ 101 & 103 — I

    @ 123 — The food drops have been bugging me for a while. If the island is so hard to find AND get to, how are the food drops possible? And if Widmore were in charge of Dharma, wouldn’t he then know where the island is because he’d know where the food drops go? Someone else mentioned that perhaps Jacob can move the island and simply moves it to the food drop location, but then Widmore could accompany the food drop pilots and lay in wait of the island coming back. Of course, my theory is faulty here, too — it would probably be a bad idea for Widmore to just drop in on his lonesome.

    Hmmm…[/quote]

    My theory is that the food was dropped years ago, but the whole time is working differently on the island thing is causing the food to arrive now.

  292. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214462"]Whitmore said that Ben was trying to find a way to the island.

    Is Ben trapped off the island, but still trying to protect it? Will he and Jack make it back to the island together?[/quote]
    I think he said Ben would never find Penny and Ben said Widmore would not find the island…hence the we both have a hunt ahead of us comment.

  293. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214465"][quote comment="214459"]@ 101 & 103 — I

    @ 123 — The food drops have been bugging me for a while. If the island is so hard to find AND get to, how are the food drops possible? And if Widmore were in charge of Dharma, wouldn’t he then know where the island is because he’d know where the food drops go? Someone else mentioned that perhaps Jacob can move the island and simply moves it to the food drop location, but then Widmore could accompany the food drop pilots and lay in wait of the island coming back. Of course, my theory is faulty here, too — it would probably be a bad idea for Widmore to just drop in on his lonesome.

    Hmmm…[/quote]

    My theory is that the food was dropped years ago, but the whole time is working differently on the island thing is causing the food to arrive now.[/quote]
    +_+_+_+_+_+_

    Yeah, it took a rocket 30 minute to get there from the freighter. Imagine how long it would take for something to just fall to it.

  294. RGS says:

    Going back to DocH’s idea of mob like rules…the top guys are “untouchables” to each other, but if a rogue underling makes a play? Rambling….[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^
    IMO the people Sayid is going after on the list are likely connected to Penny, in either they have information on her whereabouts, or something along those lines. At the end of last night’s episode, Widmore and Ben acknowledged that they are each in their own race to find Penny/Island…Pennyland.

    If Ben needs a pawn to kill Widmore, he already recruited Sayid, and could have brought him along to London, and killed Widmore there, as obviously he had little to no security.

    “There Sayid, there’s the man who orchestrated the death of your wife.”

    He couldn’t bring Sayid, because he was letting Widmore know, “I’m going after, Penny is it…is that her name?” Sayid would then not be down for that. (I know, I know, Sayid can separate those feelings…but I don’t buy that).

    My other question is do folks assume that Ben is protecting the island for some noble purpose? It seems he’s “protecting” the island to protect his asset…one which he likely wrongfully obtained.

  295. Sci Fi Girl says:

    GuttahMan – not to be cranky, but it specifically states in the guidelines not to discuss episode previews. For the purposes of this site, they are considered spoilers as we only discuss what has already happened on the show itself.

    I’m curious as to who thinks Ben is still one of the “good guys.” I thought he was pretty evil last night. Although I understand that he thought they wouldn’t kill his daughter because of the rules, if he really wanted to save her, I think he should have left the house and pretended like he was giving himself up, then try to manipulate the situation. I think his anger comes from guilt because he knows he was responsible for Alex’s death.

    He also left Claire and Sawyer for dead, leveraged Sayid’s mourning for his own purposes, is out to kill an innocent girl (Penny) for revenge on her father, and he killed a couple of random guys in the desert. Pretty bad stuff in my book, regardless of his larger agenda.

  296. DocH says:

    [quote comment="214471"]
    … I’m curious as to who thinks Ben is still one of the “good guys.” I thought he was pretty evil last night…
    … is out to kill an innocent girl (Penny) for revenge on her father…
    [/quote]
    I like the way you write. Some ideas you gave me.
    (E->E) Ben has been evil – will continue to be evil.
    (G->E) Ben has really been good the entire time – but will turn evil.
    (G->G) Has been good – will be good in the future.
    (E->G) Has been evil – will be good.
    - – - -
    Who says Penny is innocent. We’ve seen her mostly through Desmonds’ eyes – but he is easily duped. As a ‘Daddy’s girl, she may deserve every bit of the whooping Ben has coming her way. But I hope not, I like the ‘innocent’ Penny better.

  297. I heart Sawyer says:

    [quote comment="214343"]ALEX was ADOPTED. Who was the father? Widmore? Could Pennie be Alex’s sister? WHY would BEN adopt in the first place? To keep the Others “going”…children and babies seem to the ONLY commodity that BEN (and Juliet) value.[/quote]

    No No, Russo was really Alex’s Mom. Ben stole her from Russo. Am I wrong people?

  298. kdee22 says:

    Okay; I’ve never posted on here, but I’ve been a reader. I have one question to pose. Do we wonder how Ben has access to so much information, was treated like a VIP in Tunisia if he is supposed to be this islander?

    Here’s my two cents. At some point, possibly after Ben took over the Dharma project people, Ben was in a deal with Widmore that he would stay on the island and find out its powers and secrets. Might fit in with things especially if Widmore was in charge of the Dharma project to find out the powers of the island before Ben got there. Then, Widmore decided he wanted the island for himself because Ben was becoming too powerful there. Widmore decided he was coming back for the island himself. Widmore “changed the rules” of their agreement when he killed Ben’s daughter. Widmore feels the island is his because possibly his family was involved with the trade ship that crashed there so long ago. Then Ben comes along and thinks he has this stronger connection to it? Okay, I think I might be rambling now…

    Thoughts???

  299. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214473"][quote comment="214471"]
    … I’m curious as to who thinks Ben is still one of the “good guys.” I thought he was pretty evil last night…
    … is out to kill an innocent girl (Penny) for revenge on her father…
    [/quote]
    I like the way you write. Some ideas you gave me.
    (E->E) Ben has been evil – will continue to be evil.
    (G->E) Ben has really been good the entire time – but will turn evil.
    (G->G) Has been good – will be good in the future.
    (E->G) Has been evil – will be good.
    - – - -
    Who says Penny is innocent. We’ve seen her mostly through Desmonds’ eyes – but he is easily duped. As a ‘Daddy’s girl, she may deserve every bit of the whooping Ben has coming her way. But I hope not, I like the ‘innocent’ Penny better.[/quote]
    +_+_+_+_+_+__+

    Intresting. I guess its all in ones perspective. Bens dad blamed him for bens mothers death. His birth killed someone. Does that make hime evil?

  300. PJSander says:

    My darling (a LOST virgin, who dutifully listens to my “too many commercial” rants and retelling of odd plot tangents) said something last night which sounded quite ridiculous on first hearing it. However, in mulling it over, I suppose it might possibly have some merit.

    What if the food drops are on some kind of perpetual timer? You know, like one of those pet food dispensers that turn every 24 hours to reveal more food. What if there is some kind of robot-controlled plane that flies over the island every thirty days (or whatever) and drops a bundle each time?

    Just a random thought.

    : ) P

  301. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214475"]Okay; I’ve never posted on here, but I’ve been a reader. I have one question to pose. Do we wonder how Ben has access to so much information, was treated like a VIP in Tunisia if he is supposed to be this islander?

    Here’s my two cents. At some point, possibly after Ben took over the Dharma project people, Ben was in a deal with Widmore that he would stay on the island and find out its powers and secrets. Might fit in with things especially if Widmore was in charge of the Dharma project to find out the powers of the island before Ben got there. Then, Widmore decided he wanted the island for himself because Ben was becoming too powerful there. Widmore decided he was coming back for the island himself. Widmore “changed the rules” of their agreement when he killed Ben’s daughter. Widmore feels the island is his because possibly his family was involved with the trade ship that crashed there so long ago. Then Ben comes along and thinks he has this stronger connection to it? Okay, I think I might be rambling now…

    Thoughts???[/quote]

    +_+_+_+_

    Ok. So Ben was to Widmore Like Locke is to Ben know.

    Widmore could have left the island to have his child then ben never let him back.

  302. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214380"][quote comment="214377"][quote comment="214374"]i think sector is right on every thing exept with sayid killing penny. and i think that the reson he was shocked that his daughter died was because he had been to the future and his daughter did not die. thats why he kept saying “he changed the rules.”[/quote]
    What about the fact that in the future he says that Alex is dead and says that he’s going to kill Penny as well?[/quote]

    +++++
    And Ben flat out tells Charles, “…once she’s dead…you’ll wish you hadn’t changed the rules.”[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    Attention, everyone. Bomb to follow:
    I think eve is onto something. It took me awhile to think this through but here goes… The way time travel works is that it is entirely theoretical. In theory, you can not have time travel without paradox (i.e., if you went back in time and killed your grandfather before your parents were concieved, you would never have existed in the first place). The only way to find out how it really would work would be to conduct time travel experiments. The writers have expressed that the story of Lost is non-paradoxical. I take this to mean that they are using writer’s perrogative to leave paradox out of the equation. In other words, they are defining how the process works within their story. One aspect as to the way it works is course-correction. You can change how Charlie dies but you can’t change the fact that he will die. Charlie dies is a rule. You can change who is on the plane but you can’t change the fact that the plane will crash. Plane crash is a rule. Des can change whether or not he buys the ring but he can’t change the fact that he doesn’t propose. That’s a rule. I’m not sure about other rules — the writers are making them up. I believe Alex surviving was a rule. Ben said as much. This strengthens my theory that Ben can see into the future in flashes like Des can. Not the whole future, just flashes. Futhermore, Alex’s death means that you can change the rules. Ben previously thought this was not possible.

  303. vavila says:

    [quote comment="214470"]Going back to DocH’s idea of mob like rules…the top guys are “untouchables” to each other, but if a rogue underling makes a play? Rambling….[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^

    My other question is do folks assume that Ben is protecting the island for some noble purpose? It seems he’s “protecting” the island to protect his asset…one which he likely wrongfully obtained.[/quote]


    1) i don’t think island is an ‘asset’/object, which Ben has obtained. Island has certain powers and is perhaps not something you just come and take control over. Not your regular piece of land…
    2) Does Ben really control the island? Maybe just access to it to some extent
    3) If Ben is not ‘protecting’ the island, then what do you think his mission is? To get beaten up by Losties and others, watch Alex killed etc just for fun?
    4) If Ben is not ‘protecting’ the island then why original island inhabitants (Alpert, etc), who as we were led to belive used to live in harmony with the island before Dharama came, why they didn’t get rid of Ben? Why they and Ben are on the same team? What is the objective of the original inhabitants then?

    I also don’t think that Ben is the only top dog, he does a lot of dirty work himself… now Jacob may be…

  304. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214437"]My 2 favorite lines from the show

    1. Sawyer in the house “Who’s Charles Widmore?”
    Locke replies “Later”
    2. Benjamin in Widmore’s penthouse “Im here

    Charles because you murdered my daughter”
    Widmore replies “Don’t stand there looking at me with those horrible eyes of yours”[/quote]

    __________________________
    Sawyer is my favorite character. He gets all the best lines. e.g. “You and me ain’t done Zeke.”, “It’s about time we get to kill someone.” Both from my favorite episode “Three Minutes”.

  305. sector7 says:

    More questions remain from my perspective.
    1. If that was the story of how Ben recruited Sayid, what abt what they said in EP3? Ben:”Remember the last time you thought with your heart instead of you gun?” Sayid:”You used that to recruit me into killing for you.” Where was that scene???
    2. Will we see Widmore with 4 toes???
    3. Why did smokey kill the pilot and Eko?

    Oh, btw, the painting on Ben’s wall is a portrait of his mom.

  306. tpabob says:

    [quote comment="213983"]Great episode
    how did Keamy survive Smokey?
    and i wonder where penny is that would make her hard to find[/quote]

    It’s not “where” Penny is but “when” she is?

  307. RGS says:


    1) i don’t think island is an ‘asset’/object, which Ben has obtained. Island has certain powers and is perhaps not something you just come and take control over. Not your regular piece of land…
    2) Does Ben really control the island? Maybe just access to it to some extent
    3) If Ben is not ‘protecting’ the island, then what do you think his mission is? To get beaten up by Losties and others, watch Alex killed etc just for fun?
    4) If Ben is not ‘protecting’ the island then why original island inhabitants (Alpert, etc), who as we were led to belive used to live in harmony with the island before Dharama came, why they didn’t get rid of Ben? Why they and Ben are on the same team? What is the objective of the original inhabitants then?

    I also don’t think that Ben is the only top dog, he does a lot of dirty work himself… now Jacob may be…[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^
    Then the asset would be the control of the access, or whatever you want to define it as it relates to the island and the fact that he seems to be in control of some aspects.

    If Ben is not protecting the island, his mission is to make sure that no one else has control of his asset (whatever you want to define it as it relates to the island).

    The original inhabitants did not get rid of Ben because they needed him initially, as he was probably a key person in orchestrating the purge. He can speak with Jacob, perhaps the original inhabitants can not.

    Though they appear to be on the same team, Alpert seems like he is taking steps to get Locke to replace Ben. Moreover, if everything was hunky doorie with Ben and his relationship with the original inhabitants, he would not need to lie to his constituents.

    The objective of the original inhabitants is probably to live w/o outside disturbances, so while Ben is helping to achieve that, he is not doing that from an altruistic, “gee, I’ve got to help these poor inhabitants” reason, imho.

    With control of the island comes power, power he does not want to readily give up.

  308. RGS says:

    [quote comment="214485"]More questions remain from my perspective.
    1. If that was the story of how Ben recruited Sayid, what abt what they said in EP3? Ben:”Remember the last time you thought with your heart instead of you gun?” Sayid:”You used that to recruit me into killing for you.” Where was that scene???
    2. Will we see Widmore with 4 toes???
    3. Why did smokey kill the pilot and Eko?

    Oh, btw, the painting on Ben’s wall is a portrait of his mom.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^
    That’s a gr8 catch concerning the “recruitment.”

  309. frank says:

    Great episode.
    As usual, more questions than answers.

    few comments:
    1) perspective on Ben letting his daughter die – Ben claims if he gave himself to Mercs, everyone else would die. Daniel confirmed that to Jack when he told him they weren’t there to rescue the Losties. Ben, by letting daughter die but not being taken, might actually be seens doing a selfless act for the Losties.
    2) related comments:
    at end of season 3, Locke says to Jack (as Jack is going to use the satellite phone) “you’re not supposed to do that.”
    Ben says to Widmore “you changed the rules.”

    as if each, Jack and Widmore, somehow their actions changed a timeline. Keep in mind how Jack’s reporting on his father’s drunkenness caused his father to spiral, go to Australia, and die.

    3) Is Des (who is my favorite character) a pawn of Widmore? Is Locke? Think about it: Des gets in boat race and ends up on island. Locke won’t enter #s and push button. Des “saves” the day by turning key. All of which leads to magnetic pulse and guys being able to find the island. Hmmmm

  310. TheoryNut says:

    [quote comment="214250"]Anyone else notice that Widmore’s accent seemed different?
    Australian or South African or something.[/quote]

    Yes! I think the actor (Charles Widmore) is actually Australian. When he was on The OC he had American accent, done very well. Then on Ugly Betty I think he has an American Accent, originally he was definately Brittish as is Penny. Now I think the cat’s out of the bag, maybe he is actually Austrailian on the show and he’s not Brittish.

  311. dukewm says:

    [quote comment="214480"][quote comment="214380"][quote comment="214377"][quote comment="214374"]i think sector is right on every thing exept with sayid killing penny. and i think that the reson he was shocked that his daughter died was because he had been to the future and his daughter did not die. thats why he kept saying “he changed the rules.”[/quote]
    What about the fact that in the future he says that Alex is dead and says that he’s going to kill Penny as well?[/quote]

    +++++
    And Ben flat out tells Charles, “…once she’s dead…you’ll wish you hadn’t changed the rules.”[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    Attention, everyone. Bomb to follow:
    I think eve is onto something. It took me awhile to think this through but here goes… The way time travel works is that it is entirely theoretical. In theory, you can not have time travel without paradox (i.e., if you went back in time and killed your grandfather before your parents were concieved, you would never have existed in the first place). The only way to find out how it really would work would be to conduct time travel experiments. The writers have expressed that the story of Lost is non-paradoxical. I take this to mean that they are using writer’s perrogative to leave paradox out of the equation. In other words, they are defining how the process works within their story. One aspect as to the way it works is course-correction. You can change how Charlie dies but you can’t change the fact that he will die. Charlie dies is a rule. You can change who is on the plane but you can’t change the fact that the plane will crash. Plane crash is a rule. Des can change whether or not he buys the ring but he can’t change the fact that he doesn’t propose. That’s a rule. I’m not sure about other rules — the writers are making them up. I believe Alex surviving was a rule. Ben said as much. This strengthens my theory that Ben can see into the future in flashes like Des can. Not the whole future, just flashes. Futhermore, Alex’s death means that you can change the rules. Ben previously thought this was not possible.[/quote]
    ****************************

    Not bad (as theories go): Ben’s ability to see into the future (like Des) in flashes could explain how he obtains all his information on those he needs to know about. Maybe he can even “flash forward” at will, take mental notes of the situation and then research the appropriate people so that he knows all about them when the real time actually arrives ?
    i.e. his mind can time travel at will, whereas it only happens to Des randomly.

    We know Des has flashes that MAY be linked to his radiation exposure from when he blew the Swan (ha, should have said blew the hatch).
    Could Faraday be developing his “flash forward” ability on the Island due to his radiation exposure back at Oxford ?
    Does Ben have a radiation episode in his past ?

  312. dukewm says:

    [quote comment="214485"]More questions remain from my perspective.
    1. If that was the story of how Ben recruited Sayid, what abt what they said in EP3? Ben:”Remember the last time you thought with your heart instead of you gun?” Sayid:”You used that to recruit me into killing for you.” Where was that scene???
    2. Will we see Widmore with 4 toes???
    3. Why did smokey kill the pilot and Eko?

    Oh, btw, the painting on Ben’s wall is a portrait of his mom.[/quote]
    ***************************

    1. The scene was from the Vet’s office in Berlin right after Sayid killed Else.

  313. DocH says:

    [quote comment="214535"]
    Yes! I think the actor (Charles Widmore) is actually Australian.
    [/quote]
    Read ahead to comment 255 (rule 1)
    [quote comment="214423"]
    Alan Dale (Widmore) is from NEW ZEALAND. And he spends lots of time in the UK, acting on stage.
    His breaks in ‘English’ accent show his KIWI background… which can be sometimes be mistaken for Australia, South African, etc…[/quote]
    But you knew that.

  314. jaime says:

    Just a few things ….
    1. Does anyone know where to get a screen image of Ben in the Dharma Parka? It’s from the Orchid staion and i want to see the Orchid Sation logo…from my memory we have not seen it yet.
    2. Did you all notice that Charles Widmore had the painting of the Black Rock, which we saw hanging on the auction house wall, on the wall next to his bed?
    3. Regarding Ben’s paiting…this seemed to be a new version. It’s slightly different then the one’s we have seen in the past.

  315. dukewm says:

    With just 4 ep’s left in S4, does anyone have any inside info on WHEN the S4 Box Set will be released ?

    Is S5 scheduled to start FEB ’09 ?
    That’s another LONG WAIT brotha!
    But hey, it’s great to have it back for now!

  316. TheoryNut says:

    [quote comment="214535"][quote comment="214250"]Anyone else notice that Widmore’s accent seemed different?
    Australian or South African or something.[/quote]

    Yes! I think the actor (Charles Widmore) is actually Australian. When he was on The OC he had American accent, done very well. Then on Ugly Betty I think he has an American Accent, originally he was definately Brittish as is Penny. Now I think the cat’s out of the bag, maybe he is actually Austrailian on the show and he’s not Brittish.[/quote]

    **** sorry about the redundency*** i just finished reading all the posts!

  317. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214542"][quote comment="214485"]More questions remain from my perspective.
    1. If that was the story of how Ben recruited Sayid, what abt what they said in EP3? Ben:”Remember the last time you thought with your heart instead of you gun?” Sayid:”You used that to recruit me into killing for you.” Where was that scene???
    2. Will we see Widmore with 4 toes???
    3. Why did smokey kill the pilot and Eko?

    Oh, btw, the painting on Ben’s wall is a portrait of his mom.[/quote]
    ***************************

    1. The scene was from the Vet’s office in Berlin right after Sayid killed Else.[/quote]

    ——————–
    I was quoting from that scene. I was asking where is the scene where Sayid thinks with his heart instead of with his gun…

  318. sector7 says:

    dukewm wrote: Does Ben have a radiation episode in his past ?

    I bet he does and it happens before the purge.

  319. lost chicka says:

    Sayid’s heart seems to “get in the way” a lot. He let Nadia go, putting himself in danger. He really fell for German Girl and got himself shot. Nadia gets killed (bcuz of ben or widimore?) and he sells his soul, or at least what’s left of it. But I don’t think he would kill Penny bcuz his heart would get in the way bcuz he wouldn’t want to put Des through what he’s been through.

    I still can’t believed they killed Karl, Danielle, AND Alex!!! All of them would’ve had AWESOME flashbacks! And we NEVER got to see them!

    Ben can’t go back and prevent Alex from dying bcuz destiny has a way of course correcting itself (or something like that). That’s why Des had to save Charlie over & over bcuz each time he saved him destiny would find another way to kill Charlie.

    There’s no clear cut on any of the characters. Ben seems good sometimes, and bad sometimes, but in this ep Ben is TERRIBLE!!!! He’s such a manipulating, conning, human sacrificing, serial killing, mob boss, brain washed, phsyco….but I love him & his stupid little bug eyes & amazingly gelled hair!!!! I swear the island has a whole garage for all his hair gel!

    What does “the doctor is fine” mean??? It has to be something like “tell my sister I love her.” maybe something like “we have ben’s man?” or some weird thing. But then, why kill the doctor? I guess it could just be the time change, but that bothers me…

  320. DocH says:

    [quote]
    Does Ben have a radiation episode in his past ?
    [/quote]
    [quote]
    I bet he does and it happens before the purge.[/quote]
    I would say way before “The Purge”, maybe in the womb – why did Mom die? Look at the huge bug-eyes. When he sticks out his tongue 15 inches and licks his eyes like a frog… then we’ll know for sure.

  321. DocH says:

    [quote comment="214553"]
    I was quoting from that scene. I was asking where is the scene where Sayid thinks with his heart instead of with his gun…
    [/quote]
    I think the answer to what I think you might be asking is that “… think with heart instead of gun…”, probably refers to the FF fact that Sayid gave Elsa a free pass in the nookie department, and she turned the table on him and shot him before he could get to the ‘economist’ person. It could also mean, in FB terms that, Sayid gave girlfriend Nadia a way out of prison, affecting his military career and good standing in his society.

  322. LOST24 says:

    [quote comment="214452"][quote comment="214448"]Ben sacrificed his daughter. Let me try this one more time (and I do appreciate your interaction!) I have been saying that Ben sacrificed his daughter for the benefit of the Island. In saying that I did NOT say, 1) That he meant for her to die, 2) that he wanted her to die. He gave her up (allowed her death) to save the Island. Now he will attempt to enact retribution upon Widmore so that Charles will “feel what it is like to lose a daughter.” Ben will do whatever it takes to keep the Island SAFE.[/quote]
    _+_+_+_+_+_+_

    Leaving the island to tell Widmore that he is going to kill his daughter would put the Island in more danger.[/quote]
    ======================================================
    How would it put the island in more danger? Widmore is going to keep trying to get the island no matter what. Having his daughter’s life threatened will not make his goal any more set than it already is. Ben had to tell Widmore what he thought of the “rule” change. The game is on! That’s Ben’s way of saying, you f##k with me, I’ll f##k with you!

  323. i'dgetloswithsawyer says:

    [quote comment="214349"]1. I think it is clear that Ben manipulated the entire recruiting process of Sayid. He has been shown to be a master at manipulation many times before.
    2. Miles rang the doorbell, because he is with the Army men. Ben makes a statement for them to go back to their helicopter and leave this island.
    3. In the last episode, the helicopter was “gone” on the boat. Sayid makes notice of this, remember? It was gone, because the Army men took it for their mission.
    4. Ben can talk to Smokie, but not necessarily control him. More than likely, they are on the same side… “protect the island”. Ben let’s Smokie know that outsiders are threatening the island, so Smokie comes and takes care of business. Why not sic Smokie on the Losties? Can it not go through the security fence? Food for thought…
    5. Have we ruled out that Ben did not “travel” to the desert the same way Desmond “traveled” to his past? Does Ben have a constant?

    Tis all. Cheers![/quote]

    I was wondering about Ben having a constant. Could it be Charles Widmore and that is why Ben said that he couldn’t kill him?

  324. TanziTwo says:

    Popular Mechanics has a good LOST story, if you want to geek out with the writers.

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/science_news/4260693.html

  325. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214573"][quote comment="214553"]
    I was quoting from that scene. I was asking where is the scene where Sayid thinks with his heart instead of with his gun…
    [/quote]
    I think the answer to what I think you might be asking is that “… think with heart instead of gun…”, probably refers to the FF fact that Sayid gave Elsa a free pass in the nookie department, and she turned the table on him and shot him before he could get to the ‘economist’ person. It could also mean, in FB terms that, Sayid gave girlfriend Nadia a way out of prison, affecting his military career and good standing in his society.[/quote]

    __________________
    Well, Sayid told Ben abt Elsa and Ben’s response was, “Remember the last time…” then Sayid’s response was “You used that to recruit me…”, alluding to a scene that takes place after Nadia dies and before EP3. Maybe they just haven’t shown that scene yet.

  326. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="214547"]With just 4 ep’s left in S4, does anyone have any inside info on WHEN the S4 Box Set will be released ?

    Is S5 scheduled to start FEB ’09 ?
    That’s another LONG WAIT brotha!
    But hey, it’s great to have it back for now![/quote]
    Season 5 is scheduled for late Jan. I think they are having 17 EP the next 2 years. Im sure the boxset wont be out until around thanksgiving like last year. They make good christmas presents.

  327. RAY says:

    [quote comment="214440"][quote comment="214407"][quote comment="214395"]
    Here’s a poor theory:… Ben was shivering and blew out (what looked to me like) frosted breath.
    [/quote]
    No – a good theory. He surely popped in from the cold. The injury – probably not polar bear – but a struggle with Halliwax and his science buddies just to get into the portal (Looking Glass) device. BEN (aka Bug Eyed Ninja) chop-sakied his way thru the crowd with his handy telescoping baton, got to the controls, fired up the ‘way-back-change’, dove in and blasted off for who knows where. (sustaining the minor injury in the process.)[/quote]
    ######################################
    I think maybe Marvin Candle/Hallowax/Wickman had stuff(parka) in the Orchid station. The Orchid is the “tele-port” station. The journey from “here to there” is a cold one hence the parka. Also, Ben seemed surprised by the injury as though he had got in during the “trip” . There was a tear in the jacket as well.[/quote]
    ++++

    I don’t know who said it a while back, but someone pointed out that Charlotte’s initials/name are C.S. Lewis. Since then I have thought of the teleport as the “the wardrobe” and when Ben went into that strange door in his bat cave it reminded me even more of the wardrobe. My theory is this: Ben gets where he wants to go through time and space through the wardrobe in the batcave (secret room in his house). No one would know when he is coming and going because it’s right in his house. I don’t think it’s in the Orchid. Too inconveniently located.

  328. RAY says:

    [quote comment="214471"]GuttahMan – not to be cranky, but it specifically states in the guidelines not to discuss episode previews. For the purposes of this site, they are considered spoilers as we only discuss what has already happened on the show itself.

    I’m curious as to who thinks Ben is still one of the “good guys.” I thought he was pretty evil last night. Although I understand that he thought they wouldn’t kill his daughter because of the rules, if he really wanted to save her, I think he should have left the house and pretended like he was giving himself up, then try to manipulate the situation. I think his anger comes from guilt because he knows he was responsible for Alex’s death.

    He also left Claire and Sawyer for dead, leveraged Sayid’s mourning for his own purposes, is out to kill an innocent girl (Penny) for revenge on her father, and he killed a couple of random guys in the desert. Pretty bad stuff in my book, regardless of his larger agenda.[/quote]
    ====

    Well said. Every bit of it.

  329. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214606"][quote comment="214471"]GuttahMan – not to be cranky, but it specifically states in the guidelines not to discuss episode previews. For the purposes of this site, they are considered spoilers as we only discuss what has already happened on the show itself.

    I’m curious as to who thinks Ben is still one of the “good guys.” I thought he was pretty evil last night. Although I understand that he thought they wouldn’t kill his daughter because of the rules, if he really wanted to save her, I think he should have left the house and pretended like he was giving himself up, then try to manipulate the situation. I think his anger comes from guilt because he knows he was responsible for Alex’s death.

    He also left Claire and Sawyer for dead, leveraged Sayid’s mourning for his own purposes, is out to kill an innocent girl (Penny) for revenge on her father, and he killed a couple of random guys in the desert. Pretty bad stuff in my book, regardless of his larger agenda.[/quote]
    ====

    Well said. Every bit of it.[/quote]

    ____________________

    I’m not convinced that Ben is more evil than Charles. Charles sent his men to kill innocent crash survivors. Ben wouldn’t let Michael blow up the boat with innocent people on board. What abt the purge you might ask? Whoever died in the purge must not have been innocent.

  330. Omar Kamel says:

    I just watched it now…

    And had to come in just to say

    HOLY CRAP!

    Now, I’ll gather my thoughts, read the posts, and try to say something halfway intelligent.

    ACK!

    Topping this episode will be one hell of a job.

  331. TanziTwo says:

    somebody was commenting about the mercenarys in africa. here is smokemonster having a go at one of the soldiers. looks like the head of a ______ attacking.

    gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=113210&fullsize=1

  332. JamieGirl says:

    Was Alex’s Ben’s daughter or not? Anyone know?

  333. RGS says:

    [quote comment="214544"]Just a few things ….
    1. Does anyone know where to get a screen image of Ben in the Dharma Parka? It’s from the Orchid staion and i want to see the Orchid Sation logo…from my memory we have not seen it yet.
    2. Did you all notice that Charles Widmore had the painting of the Black Rock, which we saw hanging on the auction house wall, on the wall next to his bed?
    3. Regarding Ben’s paiting…this seemed to be a new version. It’s slightly different then the one’s we have seen in the past.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^

    http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=112825&fullsize=1

  334. RGS says:

    ___________________________________
    Attention, everyone. Bomb to follow:
    I take this to mean that they are using writer’s perrogative to leave paradox out of the equation. In other words, they are defining how the process works within their story…. I’m not sure about other rules — the writers are making them up. I believe Alex surviving was a rule. Ben said as much. This strengthens my theory that Ben can see into the future in flashes like Des can. Not the whole future, just flashes. Futhermore, Alex’s death means that you can change the rules. Ben previously thought this was not possible.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^
    I agree that this is a plausible theory, but my issues with it stem from the fact that the “rules” appear to be arbitrary and circular. In other words, the only “rules” that occur in this theory, are the things that actually happen. So if something happens then this theory would state, (for example) “see, the ship’s doctor had to die” and/or it could be extended to state, “the doctor had to get his throat slit that’s the rule.”

    Further, at a minimum, Ben would have then misinterpreted what he thought was a “rule,” if one supports the theory that you can’t change the future it’s already predetermined.

    I am leery of believing Ben has an at will ability to look into the future. It either would give him unprecedented power, or (in being consistent with you can’t change the future) no power at all, in that yeah he may know what is going to happen, but he can’t do anything to change it anyway so why try?

  335. JamieGirl says:

    [quote comment="214420"][quote comment="214411"][quote comment="214409"]I read on another site about how Widmore spoke, in last night’s episode with an Australian accent. Until then he used a British accent. I certainly didn’t pick up on it, but I stink at accents, and never pay attention. Anyone notice this? Thoughts?[/quote]
    Just me…but I don’t there is anything to it other than a bad accent job. Otherwise, is the suggestion that there are more than one Charles? I doubt that is the case.[/quote]

    +_+_+_+_+_+

    I did notice something different in his voice, but i took it as him just changing his tone to get a point across.[/quote]

    Actually, accent aside, I was just realizing there is a Charles and a Charlie.

  336. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214624"]___________________________________
    Attention, everyone. Bomb to follow:
    I take this to mean that they are using writer’s perrogative to leave paradox out of the equation. In other words, they are defining how the process works within their story…. I’m not sure about other rules — the writers are making them up. I believe Alex surviving was a rule. Ben said as much. This strengthens my theory that Ben can see into the future in flashes like Des can. Not the whole future, just flashes. Futhermore, Alex’s death means that you can change the rules. Ben previously thought this was not possible.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^
    I agree that this is a plausible theory, but my issues with it stem from the fact that the “rules” appear to be arbitrary and circular. In other words, the only “rules” that occur in this theory, are the things that actually happen. So if something happens then this theory would state, (for example) “see, the ship’s doctor had to die” and/or it could be extended to state, “the doctor had to get his throat slit that’s the rule.”

    Further, at a minimum, Ben would have then misinterpreted what he thought was a “rule,” if one supports the theory that you can’t change the future it’s already predetermined.

    I am leery of believing Ben has an at will ability to look into the future. It either would give him unprecedented power, or (in being consistent with you can’t change the future) no power at all, in that yeah he may know what is going to happen, but he can’t do anything to change it anyway so why try?[/quote]

    So your issue is that the writers are making up the rules? Ok.

    I’m not saying the doctor dying is a rule. The ones I mentioned are rules that have been defined up to this point. Doctor dying has not been defined as a rule.

    I never stated that Ben could see the future at will. I believe it happens similar to the way it happens with Des — in flashes. And it does give him the power to stay a step ahead of everyone else.

    Sorry, but I don’t think you debunked my theory.

  337. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214622"]Was Alex’s Ben’s daughter or not? Anyone know?[/quote]

    As far as we know, Alex was not Ben’s biological daughter. Alex was taken by the Others when she was a baby. We are lead to believe that Ben adopted her as his daughter.

  338. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214606"][quote comment="214471"]GuttahMan – not to be cranky, but it specifically states in the guidelines not to discuss episode previews. For the purposes of this site, they are considered spoilers as we only discuss what has already happened on the show itself.

    I’m curious as to who thinks Ben is still one of the “good guys.” I thought he was pretty evil last night. Although I understand that he thought they wouldn’t kill his daughter because of the rules, if he really wanted to save her, I think he should have left the house and pretended like he was giving himself up, then try to manipulate the situation. I think his anger comes from guilt because he knows he was responsible for Alex’s death.

    He also left Claire and Sawyer for dead, leveraged Sayid’s mourning for his own purposes, is out to kill an innocent girl (Penny) for revenge on her father, and he killed a couple of random guys in the desert. Pretty bad stuff in my book, regardless of his larger agenda.[/quote]
    ====

    Well said. Every bit of it.[/quote]

    _________________

    I think I’m making a case for Ben being good in the sense that he is trying to protect the island from falling into the wrong hands. I think it makes for great storytelling that they paint him to be bad — and everyone sees it that way, when in fact, he is protecting the island and having to make difficult decisions and sacrificies in a noble effort.

    Ben thought there was no way Alex would be killed, that’s a rule after all. I think if he thought there was a chance, he would have played it differently.

    As for leaving Claire and Sawyer, as much as I like Sawyer, he is a killer — he has killed more than one person in cold blood. Leaving Claire is a decision that boils down to protecting the island.

    As for manipulating Sayid, that’s also to protect the island.

    As for his desire to kill Penny, I think that’s a revenge kick. Still, not as evil as Charles.

  339. DocH says:

    [quote comment="214599]
    … then Sayid’s response was “You used that to recruit me…”, alluding to a scene that takes place after Nadia dies and before EP3. Maybe they just haven’t shown that scene yet.
    [/quote]
    I understand now (and agree). Good point. Thanks.

  340. DocH says:

    [quote comment="214640"]
    … as much as I like Sawyer, he is a killer — he has killed more than one person in cold blood. Leaving Claire is a decision that boils down to protecting the island.
    [/quote]
    He did kill in cold blood… so have most of the Losties, Tailies and Others.
    James Ford killed the crab shack guy in Australia, whom he was led to believe was the con man that lead to his families ruin (a two decade quest). Then on the island, he killed the con man (Seward/Cooper) that actually did destroy his life (and Locke’s). Then he shot Tom after the Others raided the beach camp and were going to kill Jin/Sayid/Bernard. Who did I miss? He may have gotten a few of the Others, a Tailie or two, maybe dinged a freighter thug. I think the only ‘cold-blooded’ kill was the one in Australia. The Brig kill of Cooper was a ‘crime-of-passion’ not cold-blooded. The taking of Tom was self-defense/passion. Sawyer is my fave as I think he will be the greatest story of ‘redemption’ on the show… I just hope his story is not ultimately ‘tragic’.

  341. RGS says:

    So your issue is that the writers are making up the rules? Ok.

    I’m not saying the doctor dying is a rule. The ones I mentioned are rules that have been defined up to this point. Doctor dying has not been defined as a rule.

    I never stated that Ben could see the future at will. I believe it happens similar to the way it happens with Des — in flashes. And it does give him the power to stay a step ahead of everyone else.

    Sorry, but I don’t think you debunked my theory.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^
    Though you didn’t say Ben can control his time flashes, another person did so I was addressing that comment in my response to you.

    But again, the “rules” that you state that occur are arbitrary and circular. So while yes it could be a theory that fits what is going on, I am of the opinion that if that is the case it won’t be reliable, or consistent.

    Though you didn’t say the doc dying is a rule, why isn’t it one? Because you or the writers decided it is not? So while situation X is a rule, situation y is not and so on and so forth. What would be the difference…”whatever I decide in my head.”?

    That theory would be stronger imho, IF one can change the future. However we are uncertain if that can occur in the Lost world (though I believe it can not). So even if he can see the future, if he can’t change it, there’s no real advantage in an “end of the day” kinda world.

  342. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="214047"][quote comment="213916"]
    … THIS magnet does attract per the key around Jack’s neck and all the crap that flew at the wall when the hatch blew.
    [/quote]
    False logic you. I have two high power magnets. I line them up head-to-tail, and they cling so hard, it takes 5 minutes to wrestle them apart.
    SAME two magnets head-to-head, and one gets thrown half way across the room.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Magnets can attract and repel each other but always attract other magnetic metals that arn’t polorized or magnitized. Aluminum is not magnetic, nor is (I think) nickel, silver or Gold or copper. Steele is magnetic. Many metel items, such as the chains Regina was wearing, are a blend of different metals. Gold and silver are blended with other metals for strength.

  343. RGS says:

    I think I’m making a case for Ben being good in the sense that he is trying to protect the island from falling into the wrong hands.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^
    This assumes that the island being in his hands is a good thing. If it were a good thing, and the island heals, why did he develop a tumor?

    I think it makes for great storytelling that they paint him to be bad — and everyone sees it that way, when in fact, he is protecting the island and having to make difficult decisions and sacrificies in a noble effort.
    ^^^^^^^
    It would be interesting, but imo, they would have to show him doing SOME good to balance out his negative actions. For example, in “24″ Jack Bauer does bad things, for a noble cause, and the viewer gets to see the bigger picture, the anguish he goes through etc. I can’t recall anything purely good that Ben has done.

    Ben thought there was no way Alex would be killed, that’s a rule after all. I think if he thought there was a chance, he would have played it differently.
    ^^^^^^^^^^
    This statement seems to assume that it is a set in stone “rule.”

    As for leaving Claire and Sawyer, as much as I like Sawyer, he is a killer — he has killed more than one person in cold blood. Leaving Claire is a decision that boils down to protecting the island.

    As for manipulating Sayid, that’s also to protect the island.
    ^^^^^^^^^^
    This assumes Sayid is working to off list members that are after the island, as oppose to list members that may be connected to Penny. In addition it ignores the option of Ben manipulated Sayid, simply so that he can regain control of the island all to himself.

    As for his desire to kill Penny, I think that’s a revenge kick. Still, not as evil as Charles.[/quote]

    ^^^^^^
    This seems to assume that Charles’ attempts to regain the island (assuming it was in his control b4, based on his comments to Ben) is not of a noble purpose (though right now I doubt that it is).

    Ben killed all kinds of Dharma folks in the purge, perhaps Widmore saw that a “rule” change, making him ok with getting back the island at all costs.

  344. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214646"]So your issue is that the writers are making up the rules? Ok.

    I’m not saying the doctor dying is a rule. The ones I mentioned are rules that have been defined up to this point. Doctor dying has not been defined as a rule.

    I never stated that Ben could see the future at will. I believe it happens similar to the way it happens with Des — in flashes. And it does give him the power to stay a step ahead of everyone else.

    Sorry, but I don’t think you debunked my theory.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^
    Though you didn’t say Ben can control his time flashes, another person did so I was addressing that comment in my response to you.

    But again, the “rules” that you state that occur are arbitrary and circular. So while yes it could be a theory that fits what is going on, I am of the opinion that if that is the case it won’t be reliable, or consistent.

    Though you didn’t say the doc dying is a rule, why isn’t it one? Because you or the writers decided it is not? So while situation X is a rule, situation y is not and so on and so forth. What would be the difference…”whatever I decide in my head.”?

    That theory would be stronger imho, IF one can change the future. However we are uncertain if that can occur in the Lost world (though I believe it can not). So even if he can see the future, if he can’t change it, there’s no real advantage in an “end of the day” kinda world.[/quote]

    ______________________
    I appreciate your clarification and respect your opinion. I hope I can make my point clearer without writing a novel.

    Doc dying isn’t a rule because the story has not proven it — and it has for the plane crash, Charlie’s death, and Desmond going to the island. I’m not making up what a rule is, the story is (the writers are). Those are the only rules I can easily conclude/recall.

    Alex surviving was a rule, then she was killed. This means you can change the future. Before that moment, Ben thought the future, at least the rules set in the future could not be changed.

    It’s like the theory where you go back to before the dinosaurs and step on a bug that would have led to the era of the dinosaurs. Well you changed something, but eventually the dinosaurs come to be through other means. Dinosaurs coming to be is the rule in this example.

  345. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214645"][quote comment="214640"]
    … as much as I like Sawyer, he is a killer — he has killed more than one person in cold blood. Leaving Claire is a decision that boils down to protecting the island.
    [/quote]
    He did kill in cold blood… so have most of the Losties, Tailies and Others.
    James Ford killed the crab shack guy in Australia, whom he was led to believe was the con man that lead to his families ruin (a two decade quest). Then on the island, he killed the con man (Seward/Cooper) that actually did destroy his life (and Locke’s). Then he shot Tom after the Others raided the beach camp and were going to kill Jin/Sayid/Bernard. Who did I miss? He may have gotten a few of the Others, a Tailie or two, maybe dinged a freighter thug. I think the only ‘cold-blooded’ kill was the one in Australia. The Brig kill of Cooper was a ‘crime-of-passion’ not cold-blooded. The taking of Tom was self-defense/passion. Sawyer is my fave as I think he will be the greatest story of ‘redemption’ on the show… I just hope his story is not ultimately ‘tragic’.[/quote]

    _________________________

    I consider the killing of Tom to be cold-blooded because Tom said he surrendered. What do you think Hugo thought? I agree abt Sawyer’s redemption — I hope so too.

  346. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="214349"]1. I think it is clear that Ben manipulated the entire recruiting process of Sayid. He has been shown to be a master at manipulation many times before.
    2. Miles rang the doorbell, because he is with the Army men. Ben makes a statement for them to go back to their helicopter and leave this island.
    3. In the last episode, the helicopter was “gone” on the boat. Sayid makes notice of this, remember? It was gone, because the Army men took it for their mission.
    4. Ben can talk to Smokie, but not necessarily control him. More than likely, they are on the same side… “protect the island”. Ben let’s Smokie know that outsiders are threatening the island, so Smokie comes and takes care of business. Why not sic Smokie on the Losties? Can it not go through the security fence? Food for thought…
    5. Have we ruled out that Ben did not “travel” to the desert the same way Desmond “traveled” to his past? Does Ben have a constant?

    Tis all. Cheers![/quote]
    +++++++++++
    Why wouldn’t Ben have called smokey when the freighter arrived. Perhaps he couldn’t call him untill “he changed the rules.” Hammer??

  347. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="214652"][quote comment="214645"][quote comment="214640"]
    … as much as I like Sawyer, he is a killer — he has killed more than one person in cold blood. Leaving Claire is a decision that boils down to protecting the island.
    [/quote]
    He did kill in cold blood… so have most of the Losties, Tailies and Others.
    James Ford killed the crab shack guy in Australia, whom he was led to believe was the con man that lead to his families ruin (a two decade quest). Then on the island, he killed the con man (Seward/Cooper) that actually did destroy his life (and Locke’s). Then he shot Tom after the Others raided the beach camp and were going to kill Jin/Sayid/Bernard. Who did I miss? He may have gotten a few of the Others, a Tailie or two, maybe dinged a freighter thug. I think the only ‘cold-blooded’ kill was the one in Australia. The Brig kill of Cooper was a ‘crime-of-passion’ not cold-blooded. The taking of Tom was self-defense/passion. Sawyer is my fave as I think he will be the greatest story of ‘redemption’ on the show… I just hope his story is not ultimately ‘tragic’.[/quote]

    _________________________

    I consider the killing of Tom to be cold-blooded because Tom said he surrendered. What do you think Hugo thought? I agree abt Sawyer’s redemption — I hope so too.[/quote]
    ——————-
    He tried to put the marshall out of his misery. He has come along way on though. He is also really fast, to duck all those bullets when the other 3 people were taken out in single shots, amazing.

  348. sector7 says:

    Too amazing, IMO. Leads me to believe Widmore wants Sawyer alive.

  349. DocH says:

    [quote comment="214652"]
    I consider the killing of Tom to be cold-blooded because Tom said he surrendered. What do you think Hugo thought?
    [/quote]
    Nowhere near cold blood. Cold blood would be if Sawyer had a means and a way to free the three hostages, freed them, escaped/evaded… then went back and popped one in Tom. That is cold blood.

    Sawyer organized the rescue with Juliet and Hugo crashed the party in the Vanagon, throwing the advantage to the Losties, and the tactic into chaos. All men were down, and Tom, out-gunned, tossed out the “I surrender”, in the heat of battle. Sawyer immediately capped him (heat of the moment/passion). Hurley the Compassionate – “Dude – he surrendered.” Sawyer the Noble – “I didn’t believe him.” Neither did I.

    Tom was a first class, 1A, primary combatant and would be a liability if taken prisoner by inexperienced captors at wits end. Tom led raids on beach camps to capture women and children. Tom took Walt off of the raft, and ordered the raft fired-on, punching a hole in Sawyers’ shoulder and nearly killing him with infection. Tom left the rafters’ to die in the open ocean. Tom was one of his primary captors/tormenters in the polar bear cages on the Hydra Island. Tom captured the main Losties near the Pearl, Tom led the final raid to kill remaining Losties on the beach. So not cold-blood – passion – heat of the moment.

    I am surprised that Tom even got the words “I surrender” out of his mouth. It it were me, when his mouth started to form the word “I”, my first bullet would be in the back of his throat.

    (I say this – professionally speaking of course.)

  350. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="214412"][quote comment="214364"][quote comment="214361"][quote comment="214360"][/quote]

    Ben can travel through space and time, but he can’t control what time he travels to. Why else would he be unsure as to what year it is?[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^
    My take that he can’t travel through space and time (other than the bubble) stems from the belief that the writer’s (supposedly) are not bringing us that type of story. They seem fine with conscious traveling, but not the body itself.

    Hence, I think he stated the year so as to let the audience know when the time frame of the events are taking place.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^
    Moreover, if he couldn’t control where in time he was going to end up, it would be way to risky for him to ever go into whatever apparatus (if there is one) to do his “time travel” as he would have no earthly idea of when or where he would end up.[/quote]

    Agreed. That is why I make the leap that maybe there is some sort of portal like the Vile Vortices to get off the island?

    Here is a weird one. If was traveling conciously, was maybe his 2005 body resting in state waiting for him to come back so he could properly recruit Sayid? Did he ask the date to make sure he arrived when he intended to?

    I still think there is something to him wearing Mr. Hallowax’s jacket too.[/quote]
    ——————
    And because he does not know where he will end up, this explains why he needs all those different currencies and passports we saw in an earlier show. Where ever you “pop in”, you first look around, figure out where you are, ask what date it is, and then take a flight or travel to your real destinations (be it London or LA)[/quote]
    ++++++++
    Makes sense. Ben “tried out” several languages before the camel guys understood him.

  351. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214659"][quote comment="214652"]
    I consider the killing of Tom to be cold-blooded because Tom said he surrendered. What do you think Hugo thought?
    [/quote]
    Nowhere near cold blood. Cold blood would be if Sawyer had a means and a way to free the three hostages, freed them, escaped/evaded… then went back and popped one in Tom. That is cold blood.

    Sawyer organized the rescue with Juliet and Hugo crashed the party in the Vanagon, throwing the advantage to the Losties, and the tactic into chaos. All men were down, and Tom, out-gunned, tossed out the “I surrender”, in the heat of battle. Sawyer immediately capped him (heat of the moment/passion). Hurley the Compassionate – “Dude – he surrendered.” Sawyer the Noble – “I didn’t believe him.” Neither did I.

    Tom was a first class, 1A, primary combatant and would be a liability if taken prisoner by inexperienced captors at wits end. Tom led raids on beach camps to capture women and children. Tom took Walt off of the raft, and ordered the raft fired-on, punching a hole in Sawyers’ shoulder and nearly killing him with infection. Tom left the rafters’ to die in the open ocean. Tom was one of his primary captors/tormenters in the polar bear cages on the Hydra Island. Tom captured the main Losties near the Pearl, Tom led the final raid to kill remaining Losties on the beach. So not cold-blood – passion – heat of the moment.

    I am surprised that Tom even got the words “I surrender” out of his mouth. It it were me, when his mouth started to form the word “I”, my first bullet would be in the back of his throat.

    (I say this – professionally speaking of course.)[/quote]

    ____________________

    Point made. You’re right. Nice work!

  352. DocH says:

    re: Sawyer
    [quote comment="214654"]
    He is also really fast, to duck all those bullets when the other 3 people were taken out in single shots, amazing.
    [/quote]
    I looked again. The corner of the building protected James from the those shots. The three that got hit were farther out from the building and static. In the open, Sawyer was jinking, ducking and returning fire – all good tactics, but he was fortunate there – if the shooters were as good as we believe they are. If he had ‘covering fire’ from his friends, that would have been better. The smoke from Claire’s exploded house may have also helped obscure him getting to her, and returning with her.

    eh – Hollywood, who knows? Though they are usually pretty good with Small Team Tactics (STT) now-a-days.

  353. lost chicka says:

    5 Things

    1) Charlotte gets on my nerves. Just the way she stares at everybody like “i can’t believe i’m stuck with these people.” or her “do i look like i’m gonna talk to you.” i like miles more than her right now. And faraday is starting to make me wonder if he’s more of a player then I thought he was. first faraday says taking them home isn’t their primary objective, and now they never planned to take them home. grr…tator tots!

    2) they did take hurley bcuz he knows where the cabin is – ben said so. i think jacob will be the reason why he’s sorry he went with locke.

    3) what does widimore have nightmares about??? the island? ben? penny being with des? the bad things he’s done? (meaningless questions i ask)

    4) Hammer (c248): i could see it. or maybe claire will give aaron a kiss. or maybe it is vincent & mikhail’s cat! :)

    5) a couple reasons i think could be why ben can’t kill widimore:
    1) i still think it could be bcuz the island won’t let widimore die
    2) ben always says he’s not the killer (altho he has killed his father, the rest that i can think of he planned & had somebody else do so he’s not techinichaly a killer)
    3) it’s against the rules

    (i haven’t read all the comments, so sorry if any of this has all ready been said)

  354. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="214477"]My darling (a LOST virgin, who dutifully listens to my “too many commercial” rants and retelling of odd plot tangents) said something last night which sounded quite ridiculous on first hearing it. However, in mulling it over, I suppose it might possibly have some merit.

    What if the food drops are on some kind of perpetual timer? You know, like one of those pet food dispensers that turn every 24 hours to reveal more food. What if there is some kind of robot-controlled plane that flies over the island every thirty days (or whatever) and drops a bundle each time?

    Just a random thought.

    : ) P[/quote]
    We have only seen evidence of one food drop as yet and I think that Locke “ordered” it when he was in Patchys house/bunker thing. He was playing with the computer and sonething came up about a food drop.

  355. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="214091"]first timer………
    did anyone else think it was strange that Miles acted like he didn’t know who the attackers were when he rang the doorbell and gave Ben the walkie-talkie? He was on the same boat as them![/quote]
    I think Miles thought he was one of the “tough guys” and found out he wasn’t even close.

  356. RGS says:

    [quote comment="214650"][quote comment="214646"]quote]I appreciate your clarification and respect your opinion. I hope I can make my point clearer without writing a novel.

    Doc dying isn’t a rule because the story has not proven it — and it has for the plane crash, Charlie’s death, and Desmond going to the island. I’m not making up what a rule is, the story is (the writers are). Those are the only rules I can easily conclude/recall.

    Alex surviving was a rule, then she was killed. This means you can change the future. Before that moment, Ben thought the future, at least the rules set in the future could not be changed.

    It’s like the theory where you go back to before the dinosaurs and step on a bug that would have led to the era of the dinosaurs. Well you changed something, but eventually the dinosaurs come to be through other means. Dinosaurs coming to be is the rule in this example.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^
    Lol, my attempt at commenting after each of your previous comments did not quite work out as I originally planned.

    So the gist of your rule theory is that it takes one or two more episodes of consistency before something becomes a rule?

    I guess what I’m asking you, for your theory, is when do you know something is a rule? As I understand what you’re saying (and I admit to not being the brightest bulb) the ship’s doctor dying IS a rule. I think other rules include: Tom dying, Daniel turning off the gas, and Miles asking for exactly 3.2 million (that would explain the arbitrary amount).

  357. RGS says:

    [quote comment="214668"]5 Things

    1) Charlotte gets on my nerves. Just the way she stares at everybody like “i can’t believe i’m stuck with these people.” or her “do i look like i’m gonna talk to you.” i like miles more than her right now. And faraday is starting to make me wonder if he’s more of a player then I thought he was. first faraday says taking them home isn’t their primary objective, and now they never planned to take them home. grr…tator tots!

    2) they did take hurley bcuz he knows where the cabin is – ben said so. i think jacob will be the reason why he’s sorry he went with locke.

    3) what does widimore have nightmares about??? the island? ben? penny being with des? the bad things he’s done? (meaningless questions i ask)

    4) Hammer (c248): i could see it. or maybe claire will give aaron a kiss. or maybe it is vincent & mikhail’s cat! :)

    5) a couple reasons i think could be why ben can’t kill widimore:
    1) i still think it could be bcuz the island won’t let widimore die
    2) ben always says he’s not the killer (altho he has killed his father, the rest that i can think of he planned & had somebody else do so he’s not techinichaly a killer)
    3) it’s against the rules

    (i haven’t read all the comments, so sorry if any of this has all ready been said)[/quote]

    Planning and giving orders to kill would actually technically make him a killer. See: “A Few Good Men,” all kinds of mobster movies, Law & Order Criminal Intent.

  358. sector7 says:

    RGS wrote: So the gist of your rule theory is that it takes one or two more episodes of consistency before something becomes a rule?

    I guess what I’m asking you, for your theory, is when do you know something is a rule? As I understand what you’re saying (and I admit to not being the brightest bulb) the ship’s doctor dying IS a rule. I think other rules include: Tom dying, Daniel turning off the gas, and Miles asking for exactly 3.2 million (that would explain the arbitrary amount).

    ____________________________

    I admit, it’s difficult to identify the rules in this story. I think it’s clear that Charlie dying was a rule. The story went way out of it’s way to tell us that. Ms. Hawking flat out told us that Desmond not marrying Penny and going to the island was a rule. My opinion that the plane crash is a rule stems from the fact that it’s the basis for the story so far. To change that rule is to tell a story other than Lost. According to Bens reaction to Alex’s death, I’m led to believe that her survival was a rule. There are NO OTHER rules I can currently conclude at this time. All other occurrances in the story, unless someone can make a strong case for it being a rule, are variables. I would say everything you mentioned above is a variable. Those things do not have to occur for the strory to work itself out as we know it. Now, the Oceanic 6 leaving the island is more of a rule. That has to happen for our story to proceed.

  359. Missy says:

    A question to pose regarding Ben “summoning” smokey:

    If, as alot of us are assuming, that Ben went into his secret, secret room/ tunnel to summon smokey…Did smokey get summoned at all while Ben was being held captive in the swan station? If smokey WAS seen while he was being held, then not just Ben can control Smokey. But we did go through a dry spell without seeing smokey for awhile – was it while Ben was being held?

    Anyone know the answer?

  360. Dr Illard says:

    When Ben went into the heiroglyph ‘secret’ room, is that the point that he traveled to the Sahara, went to Tunisia, recruited Sayid, then came back and released Smokie before re-emerging to tell the losties to run for the tree-line.

    Literally as soon as Alex was shot and he said the rules have changed, he set in motion his plans to raise the stakes by travelling to October 2005 and recruiting his assassin. Perhaps neither Widmore or Ben were responsible for Nadia’s death, she could have been an unrelated killing, but Ben’s knowledge of the death could have been a way for him to manipulate Sayid into believing they have a common enemy. After the Flash Forward had played out, Ben returns back to immediately after Alex was shot.

    I only wish Sayid was not on the freighter, as this would allow him to potentially be Ben’s ‘Constant’ thus removing physical time travel/teleportation and just keeping it on a conscious level. Any thoughts? Can a character have multiple ‘constants’?

  361. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214826"]When Ben went into the heiroglyph ‘secret’ room, is that the point that he traveled to the Sahara, went to Tunisia, recruited Sayid, then came back and released Smokie before re-emerging to tell the losties to run for the tree-line.

    Literally as soon as Alex was shot and he said the rules have changed, he set in motion his plans to raise the stakes by travelling to October 2005 and recruiting his assassin. Perhaps neither Widmore or Ben were responsible for Nadia’s death, she could have been an unrelated killing, but Ben’s knowledge of the death could have been a way for him to manipulate Sayid into believing they have a common enemy. After the Flash Forward had played out, Ben returns back to immediately after Alex was shot.

    I only wish Sayid was not on the freighter, as this would allow him to potentially be Ben’s ‘Constant’ thus removing physical time travel/teleportation and just keeping it on a conscious level. Any thoughts? Can a character have multiple ‘constants’?[/quote]

    ______________________

    Ben did not enter the secret cave with a jacket on, so I don’t think it happened the way you described. Possible, yes. But what about the jacket and the cut on the arm? It doesn’t add up.

    I said after “The Other Woman” that I thought Juliet was Ben’s constant. Ben to Juliet:”You are mine!”

    I also think it’s possible that every character with abilties does not need a constant.

  362. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214823"]A question to pose regarding Ben “summoning” smokey:

    If, as alot of us are assuming, that Ben went into his secret, secret room/ tunnel to summon smokey…Did smokey get summoned at all while Ben was being held captive in the swan station? If smokey WAS seen while he was being held, then not just Ben can control Smokey. But we did go through a dry spell without seeing smokey for awhile – was it while Ben was being held?

    Anyone know the answer?[/quote]
    +_+_+_+_+_+_+_+

    Think Smokey’s more like a guard dog or an alarm system. It may have settings for day to day use but then can be summoned to do specific task.

  363. intolost says:

    1. During the Ben/Widmore exchange, didn’t Ben say “you’ll never find it?,” meaning the island? Widmore also said something like “you’ll never find her?,” meaning Penny? Hasn’t Ben previously mentioned that Widmore hasn’t found the island? Isn’t that what he told Locke? Seems the race is on! Which one will be found first? Yes, I think “the rules” are quite complex and have deep Ben/Widmore history involved in them.

    2. Run, Penny, run!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    3. Miles: I don’t trust him for beans!!! He has devious, shifty eyes.

    4. Faraday: Soft heart (or is that fake?), terrible liar, I want Jack to smack him and make him talk! Come on, Jack! I want to trust Faraday, but I don’t yet. C.S. Lewis just seems to be his sidekick.

    5. Sawyer: Killer, yes, but The guy is fiercely loyal. There was no stopping him from going to get Claire. Sawyer trusts no one and saw Tom as a threat. I think Sawyer really regretted killing Cooper. He was absolutely shaken to the core by what he did. I thought it was quite touching how he wanted to “protect” Hurley from Ben and stop him from going with Ben. When it comes down to it, yes, I think Sawyer will end up (probably soon) willingly dying for his friends pretty soon. Sawyer, I think, has definitely developed from total self-centered jerk to hero. That’s one of the great things I love about LOST—the theme of redemption!

    6. LOL!!! Just a Star Wars sidenote: The moonlight Ben/Widmore exchange seemed a bit Annakin/Obiwan-ish. Widmore “made him” and Ben turned on him. I’m dying for a Widmore-centric episode!!!!

    7. LOL!!! Another Star Wars sidenote: Ben plopping down in the desert: Remniscent of Luke Skywalker on Tatooine. I thought he was about to call out for Uncle Owen and Aunt Veru!

  364. lost chicka says:

    Sector7 “1. If that was the story of how Ben recruited Sayid, what abt what they said in EP3? Ben:”Remember the last time you thought with your heart instead of you gun?” Sayid:”You used that to recruit me into killing for you.” Where was that scene???”
    >> If Sayid had thought with his “gun,” he would’ve stopped killing after he shot Ishmael or whatever his name was, or not even killed anybody in the first place. Ya know, not waste his bullets. But he thought with his heart, killed for ben, and then asked to be ben’s hit man (dumb decision). Idk, maybe I’m reading to hard, but this is the episode where he gets recruited by Ben, so I think that’s it…

    RGS (c357): yes I know ordering the deaths would make ben a killer, but in his mind he’s not a killer. He’s very adamant about him not being a killer, in his mind he doesn’t have the blood on his hands.

    I think Ben went through the closet to get smokey, not recruit Sayid. He wasn’t wearing a parka when he left, as said earlier, and he was recruiting sayid at the beginning of the ep and smokey only came AFTER he went into the bat cave.

  365. Missy says:

    [quote comment="214437"]My 2 favorite lines from the show

    1. Sawyer in the house “Who’s Charles Widmore?”
    Locke replies “Later”
    2. Benjamin in Widmore’s penthouse “Im here

    Charles because you murdered my daughter”
    Widmore replies “Don’t stand there looking at me with those horrible eyes of yours”[/quote]
    ____
    I think my favorite line was when Sayid killed the supposed man who killed Nadia. He shot him – then pumped him full of the rest of his bullets and kept squeezing the trigger after the gun was empty and Ben said, “I think that’ll do it.” It was great!

  366. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="214841"]

    RGS (c357): yes I know ordering the deaths would make ben a killer, but in his mind he’s not a killer. He’s very adamant about him not being a killer, in his mind he doesn’t have the blood on his hands.

    [/quote]
    He never actually said he was not a killer. We know he is. I think he said he doesn’t kill innocent people. Now the question is who the hell is innocent in Ben’s mind.

  367. sector7 says:

    I think we need to reserve final judgement on Ben until all the facts are out. If his overall reason for killing is to ultimately save the entire human race, then that’s understandable, right?

  368. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="214821"]
    I admit, it’s difficult to identify the rules in this story. I think it’s clear that Charlie dying was a rule. The story went way out of it’s way to tell us that. Ms. Hawking flat out told us that Desmond not marrying Penny and going to the island was a rule. My opinion that the plane crash is a rule stems from the fact that it’s the basis for the story so far. To change that rule is to tell a story other than Lost. According to Bens reaction to Alex’s death, I’m led to believe that her survival was a rule. There are NO OTHER rules I can currently conclude at this time. All other occurrances in the story, unless someone can make a strong case for it being a rule, are variables. I would say everything you mentioned above is a variable. Those things do not have to occur for the strory to work itself out as we know it. Now, the Oceanic 6 leaving the island is more of a rule. That has to happen for our story to proceed.[/quote]
    I am not quite understanding where you are going with all this “rules” talk. Are you substituting the word rules for fate? The only “rule”, that we know for sure, was that you can’t kill family ( I think it was family). Another thing about rules, from my childhood, is that they are made to be broken.

  369. TanziTwo says:

    [quote]
    … ordering the deaths would make ben a killer, but in his mind he’s not a killer. … adamant about… not being a killer, in his mind he doesn’t have the blood on his hands.
    [/quote]
    [quote]
    He never actually said he was not a killer. We know he is. I think he said he doesn’t kill innocent people. Now the question is who the hell is innocent in Ben’s mind.
    [/quote]
    Tomayto – Tomahto
    What does his politically correct business card say.

    Ben Linus
    “Wholesaler, Harvests Innocence-Challenged Souls At Discount.”

  370. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="214846"]I think we need to reserve final judgement on Ben until all the facts are out. If his overall reason for killing is to ultimately save the entire human race, then that’s understandable, right?[/quote]
    IMO, I have never stated that certain characters killing other characters is bad or good. The term “killing” or “killer” is thought of as negative when you see it on a blog. IMO, if you take another life, you are a killer, not necessarily a murderer. JMHO.

  371. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214850"][quote comment="214821"]
    I admit, it’s difficult to identify the rules in this story. I think it’s clear that Charlie dying was a rule. The story went way out of it’s way to tell us that. Ms. Hawking flat out told us that Desmond not marrying Penny and going to the island was a rule. My opinion that the plane crash is a rule stems from the fact that it’s the basis for the story so far. To change that rule is to tell a story other than Lost. According to Bens reaction to Alex’s death, I’m led to believe that her survival was a rule. There are NO OTHER rules I can currently conclude at this time. All other occurrances in the story, unless someone can make a strong case for it being a rule, are variables. I would say everything you mentioned above is a variable. Those things do not have to occur for the strory to work itself out as we know it. Now, the Oceanic 6 leaving the island is more of a rule. That has to happen for our story to proceed.[/quote]
    I am not quite understanding where you are going with all this “rules” talk. Are you substituting the word rules for fate? The only “rule”, that we know for sure, was that you can’t kill family ( I think it was family). Another thing about rules, from my childhood, is that they are made to be broken.[/quote]

    When on the show did it say that it was a rule that you can’t kill family? That assumed rule was created on this blog.

    The story of Lost has rules. I guess another way to put it is that the rules are like main events that have to happen. Ms. Hawking tried to explain this to Des.

    Another way the story has rules is in refernce to how time travel works on Lost. In that respect, the writers created the rules that dictate how time travel works. “Rules” means the way things have to be for the story to play out. Widmore changed the rules. When you travel through time on Lost, you can change things that would be considered variables, e.g., how Charlie dies, but there are some things you can’t change. I just thought of another rule: Faraday has to show his rat how to rum through the maze. That can not be a variable because we saw the rat run the maze before it was taught. I know it’s difficult to comprehend…

  372. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="214842"][quote comment="214437"]My 2 favorite lines from the show

    1. Sawyer in the house “Who’s Charles Widmore?”
    Locke replies “Later”
    2. Benjamin in Widmore’s penthouse “Im here

    Charles because you murdered my daughter”
    Widmore replies “Don’t stand there looking at me with those horrible eyes of yours”[/quote]
    ____
    I think my favorite line was when Sayid killed the supposed man who killed Nadia. He shot him – then pumped him full of the rest of his bullets and kept squeezing the trigger after the gun was empty and Ben said, “I think that’ll do it.” It was great![/quote]
    —————
    That was a good one also. I loved it when Ben started walikng away, like that was ALL he wanted Sayid to do.

  373. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="214853"][quote comment="214850"][quote comment="214821"]
    I admit, it’s difficult to identify the rules in this story. I think it’s clear that Charlie dying was a rule. The story went way out of it’s way to tell us that. Ms. Hawking flat out told us that Desmond not marrying Penny and going to the island was a rule. My opinion that the plane crash is a rule stems from the fact that it’s the basis for the story so far. To change that rule is to tell a story other than Lost. According to Bens reaction to Alex’s death, I’m led to believe that her survival was a rule. There are NO OTHER rules I can currently conclude at this time. All other occurrances in the story, unless someone can make a strong case for it being a rule, are variables. I would say everything you mentioned above is a variable. Those things do not have to occur for the strory to work itself out as we know it. Now, the Oceanic 6 leaving the island is more of a rule. That has to happen for our story to proceed.[/quote]
    I am not quite understanding where you are going with all this “rules” talk. Are you substituting the word rules for fate? The only “rule”, that we know for sure, was that you can’t kill family ( I think it was family). Another thing about rules, from my childhood, is that they are made to be broken.[/quote]

    When on the show did it say that it was a rule that you can’t kill family? That assumed rule was created on this blog.

    The story of Lost has rules. I guess another way to put it is that the rules are like main events that have to happen. Ms. Hawking tried to explain this to Des.

    Another way the story has rules is in refernce to how time travel works on Lost. In that respect, the writers created the rules that dictate how time travel works. “Rules” means the way things have to be for the story to play out. Widmore changed the rules. When you travel through time on Lost, you can change things that would be considered variables, e.g., how Charlie dies, but there are some things you can’t change. I just thought of another rule: Faraday has to show his rat how to rum through the maze. That can not be a variable because we saw the rat run the maze before it was taught. I know it’s difficult to comprehend…[/quote]
    —————-
    You are right, they did not state that you can’t kill family. But that was the first time on the show that rules were mentioned. I don’t think anything you have mentioned were ever stated on the show either. LOL. Are you making up your own rules for the show?

  374. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="214851"][quote]
    … ordering the deaths would make ben a killer, but in his mind he’s not a killer. … adamant about… not being a killer, in his mind he doesn’t have the blood on his hands.
    [/quote]
    [quote]
    He never actually said he was not a killer. We know he is. I think he said he doesn’t kill innocent people. Now the question is who the hell is innocent in Ben’s mind.
    [/quote]
    Tomayto – Tomahto
    What does his politically correct business card say.

    Ben Linus
    “Wholesaler, Harvests Innocence-Challenged Souls At Discount.”[/quote]
    [quote comment="214662"]re: Sawyer
    [quote comment="214654"]
    He is also really fast, to duck all those bullets when the other 3 people were taken out in single shots, amazing.
    [/quote]
    I looked again. The corner of the building protected James from the those shots. The three that got hit were farther out from the building and static. In the open, Sawyer was jinking, ducking and returning fire – all good tactics, but he was fortunate there – if the shooters were as good as we believe they are. If he had ‘covering fire’ from his friends, that would have been better. The smoke from Claire’s exploded house may have also helped obscure him getting to her, and returning with her.

    eh – Hollywood, who knows? Though they are usually pretty good with Small Team Tactics (STT) now-a-days.[/quote]
    ———-
    I watched it again also. On this show, somethings are never questioned, like Ben and his super-agent skills, were did he learn those? He was like James Bond dressed as Indiana Jones. Maybe the hostiles trained him or Mikhail or someone that has been on the island. I get it. Where did Sawyer learn his military tactics? We have only seen him as a conman. Do they have Call of Duty 4 at the barracks to teach him these tactics?

  375. sector7 says:

    lost4ever wrote: You are right, they did not state that you can’t kill family. But that was the first time on the show that rules were mentioned. I don’t think anything you have mentioned were ever stated on the show either. LOL. Are you making up your own rules for the show?

    __________________
    I know I’m really reaching on this. I think that in order to know the “rules”, you have to see the future. I think Ben can see into the future, therefor, he knows the rules. Ms. Hawking knows the rules. I think Charles can see the future so he knows the rules. These people are playing a game in a sense. You can change certain things that are supposed to happen but not some things that they would consider “rules”. Desmond hasn’t learned this yet but I think he will. I think Dan has figured this out.

  376. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="214851"][quote]
    … ordering the deaths would make ben a killer, but in his mind he’s not a killer. … adamant about… not being a killer, in his mind he doesn’t have the blood on his hands.
    [/quote]
    [quote]
    He never actually said he was not a killer. We know he is. I think he said he doesn’t kill innocent people. Now the question is who the hell is innocent in Ben’s mind.
    [/quote]
    Tomayto – Tomahto
    What does his politically correct business card say.

    Ben Linus
    “Wholesaler, Harvests Innocence-Challenged Souls At Discount.”[/quote]
    ———————
    FROM Webster’s…KILL – to deprive of life : cause the death of. Kill merely states the fact of death caused by an agency in any manner .
    OR in lost terms The smoke killed EKKO, Sawyer killed Cooper, Ben killed the 2 desert dwellers. I don’t undertand the politically correct comment? But I am blonde.

  377. Missy says:

    One last thing that I have forgotten to mention – Does it sound right that Sayid looked for Nadia for 8 years? Has be been off the island for 8 years? Or is he saying in total since they parted in Iraq that it had been 8 years? Anyone catch that one?

  378. Missy says:

    Okay – seriously last thought from me. The only ice-cold, wintery place we’ve been shown so far is where the other freighter people are – for Penny. COuld Ben have just come from there? Hence the parka and the steam coming off of him?

  379. Ydnar says:

    Widmore IS Bens constant.

    I know Jack is “sick” but Dont you think he is being waaay too passive lately. The “old” jack would have freaked out and threatened Faraday and Lewis with violent means over their coy insincerity. Hes also popping pills a la earlier FFs. “We need to go back Kate”. Are the Jack and Kate we are now seeing “returnees” to the island somehow? Did you see the way she looked at him when she was washing her hands at the beach. Are they each others “constant”

  380. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214863"]One last thing that I have forgotten to mention – Does it sound right that Sayid looked for Nadia for 8 years? Has be been off the island for 8 years? Or is he saying in total since they parted in Iraq that it had been 8 years? Anyone catch that one?[/quote]

    I took that as in total since they parted in Iraq that it had been 8 years.

  381. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214864"]Okay – seriously last thought from me. The only ice-cold, wintery place we’ve been shown so far is where the other freighter people are – for Penny. COuld Ben have just come from there? Hence the parka and the steam coming off of him?[/quote]

    I think you might be right.

  382. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="214858"]lost4ever wrote: You are right, they did not state that you can’t kill family. But that was the first time on the show that rules were mentioned. I don’t think anything you have mentioned were ever stated on the show either. LOL. Are you making up your own rules for the show?

    __________________
    I know I’m really reaching on this. I think that in order to know the “rules”, you have to see the future. I think Ben can see into the future, therefor, he knows the rules. Ms. Hawking knows the rules. I think Charles can see the future so he knows the rules. These people are playing a game in a sense. You can change certain things that are supposed to happen but not some things that they would consider “rules”. Desmond hasn’t learned this yet but I think he will. I think Dan has figured this out.[/quote]
    —————
    That’s a good theory. I think Ben can see in to the future also, just like I thought Locke could in season 1. But I think the island or Jacob, only lets him see certain things.
    I just thought, when he said “he changed the rules”, he was actually referring to an old code, as others have stated. Maybe the “rules” are written down in the temple, if there even is one. LOL

  383. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="214864"]Okay – seriously last thought from me. The only ice-cold, wintery place we’ve been shown so far is where the other freighter people are – for Penny. COuld Ben have just come from there? Hence the parka and the steam coming off of him?[/quote]
    You may be right, but I think it has more to do with the actual travel through time/space, then where he came from. Did you notice the new sounding “whoosh” at the beginning of that scene?

  384. Michael says:

    [quote comment="214867"][quote comment="214864"]Okay – seriously last thought from me. The only ice-cold, wintery place we’ve been shown so far is where the other freighter people are – for Penny. COuld Ben have just come from there? Hence the parka and the steam coming off of him?[/quote]

    I think you might be right.[/quote]
    +_+_+_+_+_+_+

    I like it. He goes there. Gets what info he needs about peoples and places then sets out on his mission. So we believe there may have be a altercation in the winter place and thats why Ben is wounded on his right arm.

  385. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214470"]
    My other question is do folks assume that Ben is protecting the island for some noble purpose? It seems he’s “protecting” the island to protect his asset…one which he likely wrongfully obtained.[/quote]
    IMO Ben may not have wrongfully taken it. As I recall, DHARMA/Widmore had inhabited the island and were being attacked by “hostiles” while they were there. “Hostiles” MIGHT natives of island and being repressed by the “invaders”. Ben is recruited by the natives to help liberate them…and Widmore’s evil ego won’t let it go because he sees it as Ben took what he took.

  386. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214635"][quote comment="214622"]Was Alex’s Ben’s daughter or not? Anyone know?[/quote]

    As far as we know, Alex was not Ben’s biological daughter. Alex was taken by the Others when she was a baby. We are lead to believe that Ben adopted her as his daughter.[/quote]
    ++++++
    True we don’t know anymore that what has been said. But for sure adoption is a euphemism. There is nothing legal about kidnapping a child. I still believe that Ben may be Alex’s bio dad…waiting for more Danielle back story…

  387. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214653"]
    +++++++++++
    Why wouldn’t Ben have called smokey when the freighter arrived. Perhaps he couldn’t call him untill “he changed the rules.” Hammer??[/quote]
    IMO Smokey can attack on it’s own. I think the purpose of the scene of Ben going to get him was to hint to us the Ben can make contact and communicate with it AND to let it know that the fence was of…go get the bastards attacking the island. Like any “watch dog”, it may not be omnicient and doesn’t automatically know when and where attackers are.

  388. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214682"][quote comment="214091"]first timer………
    did anyone else think it was strange that Miles acted like he didn’t know who the attackers were when he rang the doorbell and gave Ben the walkie-talkie? He was on the same boat as them![/quote]
    I think Miles thought he was one of the “tough guys” and found out he wasn’t even close.[/quote]
    Absolutely agree, Miles is nothing more (except for the ghost whispering) than a weasel. He didn’t know about Smokey and needs time to rethink his plans.

  389. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214844"][quote comment="214841"]

    RGS (c357): yes I know ordering the deaths would make ben a killer, but in his mind he’s not a killer. He’s very adamant about him not being a killer, in his mind he doesn’t have the blood on his hands.

    [/quote]
    He never actually said he was not a killer. We know he is. I think he said he doesn’t kill innocent people. Now the question is who the hell is innocent in Ben’s mind.[/quote]
    +++++++
    IMO innocent people don’t attack the island that orignally belonged to someone else that he is now associated with. Alpert’s group to be specific. They recruited him and have since decided that his interests aren’t what they originally wanted and that’s why they have recruited Locke. Now add Ben’s revenge quest and Locke is now a “lock”. Like the pun?

  390. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214864"]Okay – seriously last thought from me. The only ice-cold, wintery place we’ve been shown so far is where the other freighter people are – for Penny. COuld Ben have just come from there? Hence the parka and the steam coming off of him?[/quote]
    Yes. I think we kind of touched on it earlier with the Vortices thing. If there is a DHARMA station new a vortice in the Arctic, he may have gone there before he dropped into Tunisia. And it would make sense that Widmore folks, whether Penn’s or Charles’ would have been at that DHARMA station monitoring and waiting for a signal.

  391. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="214886"][quote comment="214864"]Okay – seriously last thought from me. The only ice-cold, wintery place we’ve been shown so far is where the other freighter people are – for Penny. COuld Ben have just come from there? Hence the parka and the steam coming off of him?[/quote]
    Yes. I think we kind of touched on it earlier with the Vortices thing. If there is a DHARMA station new a vortice in the Arctic, he may have gone there before he dropped into Tunisia. And it would make sense that Widmore folks, whether Penn’s or Charles’ would have been at that DHARMA station monitoring and waiting for a signal.[/quote]
    +++++
    Crappy typing. I meant to say “near a vortex” not “new a vortice”

  392. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="214882"]True we don’t know anymore that what has been said. But for sure adoption is a euphemism. There is nothing legal about kidnapping a child. I still believe that Ben may be Alex’s bio dad…waiting for more Danielle back story…[/quote]

    When speaking to Keamy, Ben referred to Alex’s mother as an insane woman. We know that Rousseau has said some crazy things. Perhaps everything that we know of her history is all fabrication or hallucination. Perhaps Ben met Rousseau off island and “recruited” her (and maybe the other people she thinks all died) to come to the island. Perhaps Alex WAS conceived off island and Ben IS her father.

    Perhaps in coming to the island, Rousseau was the one afflicted with the “sickness” but it manifested itself differently in her than in Desmond or Minkowski. Perhaps everything we have heard of her time on the island is skewed by that sickness.

    She did not seem shocked to see Ben. She knows he is her daughter’s “kidnapper” but treats him the same strange way that she treats everyone she encounters.

    Perhaps Ben IS Alex’s father. Perhaps he took Alex and went back to New Otherton after Rousseau ran away with the newborn in a hallucinated panic.

    We’ve taken Rousseau at her word from day one. Perhaps we will see a flashback which will prove the woman has an altered sense of her past.

    Who knows.

    : ) P

  393. J.Ro. says:

    First time poster, long time reader.

    Does anyone think its strange that Widmore is going through all of this trouble to find Ben on the island (Keamy and crew) but when Ben drops by the penthouse, he hardly sits up for him? I mean, Widmore’s people are pretty much doing everything in their power to find him on the island (for what exactly?)… Then Widmore has him in person (in his bedroom no less) and he seems more bothered by the visit than anything.

  394. DocH says:

    [quote comment="214970"]
    Perhaps in coming to the island, Rousseau was the one afflicted with the “sickness” but it manifested itself differently in her than in Desmond or Minkowski. Perhaps everything we have heard of her time on the island is skewed by that sickness.
    [/quote]
    What if… Danielle was part of an original (initial) effort by Widmore to reclaim the island. Her ‘expedition’ was out hunting for it… met their fate… sickness… whatever. She was with child when they set off. Maybe her blocking the communications for so many years was really her way off saying – “you can’t reclaim the island… just now”.

  395. JamieGirl says:

    [quote comment="214474"][quote comment="214343"]ALEX was ADOPTED. Who was the father? Widmore? Could Pennie be Alex’s sister? WHY would BEN adopt in the first place? To keep the Others “going”…children and babies seem to the ONLY commodity that BEN (and Juliet) value.[/quote]

    No No, Russo was really Alex’s Mom. Ben stole her from Russo. Am I wrong people?[/quote]

    Alexandra, commonly known as Alex, was the biological daughter of Danielle Rousseau and Robert. She was the adopted daughter of Ben Linus. Alex’s surname is uncertain (either “Rousseau” or “Linus”), although she has been listed in ABC Medianet episode credits as “Alexandra Rousseau”.
    Sixteen years before the crash of Flight 815, Danielle and Robert arrived on the Island as part of a science expedition. Danielle was seven months pregnant with Alex when she arrived. According to Rousseau, Alex was taken by the Others a week after her birth. Ben Linus raised Alex among the Others as his daughter, telling her that her mother was dead.
    Robert – Rousseau shot him dead.

  396. JamieGirl says:

    that was from Lostpedia

  397. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="215024"]that was from Lostpedia[/quote]
    Lostpedia is written by a collection of ordinary people (some of which might be crazy fans *bg*) and is based on (what is thought to be) evidence from on the show.

    But all of the information you quoted from Lostpedia was based on what Rousseau told the losties. We have no way of knowing if any of her history is “fact” (as it applies to the show, obviously *g*). If Rousseau lied, then none of it might be true. Same if she hallucinated most of what she “remembers” about her past.

    For all we know, she could be covertly working for Ben, for Widmore, or the US Government!

    : ) P

  398. JamieGirl says:

    This is a little off topic, is Penny married?

  399. Cindy says:

    [quote comment="214864"]Okay – seriously last thought from me. The only ice-cold, wintery place we’ve been shown so far is where the other freighter people are – for Penny. COuld Ben have just come from there? Hence the parka and the steam coming off of him?[/quote]

    I was wondering about this too. Also, does anyone remember with Charlotte (from the freighter) flashback- wasn’t she in Tunisia? And didn’t she find a Dharma patch or something there and had a big smile on her face? Is that like a portal or something?

  400. JamieGirl says:

    I should elaborate… I ask that because I wonder where or how her father could hide her?

  401. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="214844"][quote comment="214841"]

    RGS (c357): yes I know ordering the deaths would make ben a killer, but in his mind he’s not a killer. He’s very adamant about him not being a killer, in his mind he doesn’t have the blood on his hands.

    [/quote]
    He never actually said he was not a killer. We know he is. I think he said he doesn’t kill innocent people. Now the question is who the hell is innocent in Ben’s mind.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Perhaps “not killing innocent people” is one of the rules, the one Widmore broke. That would probably make Penny innocent too.

    Ben, and Widmore, can manipulate people into doing things that “remove their innocence” therfore making them fair game. So, the kids on the plane, Cindy, and whoever else was on “the list” were/are innocent. Ben wants to surround himself with innocents because Widmore can’t kill them. He also had his soldiers, like Tom for protection. Juliette got marked when she “lost her innocence” by killing an other on the beach to free Kate and Sawyer.

    The rules seem similar to those used in movies about God, the devil, and angles/fallen angles. Each of them has a set of rules they have to follow and “free will” is usually a major factor in which side everyone ends up on.

    I don’t think the rules Ben was referring to have anything to do with the “Not changing the future” “Charlie had to die” concepts. Different kind of rules.

    Circus Dork is watching the show now and asked me to post this for her. She commented that she thinks it is VERY important that Ben gave the gun to Sawyer after pulling it out of the piano bench. He pulled it out, looked at Locke, and tossed it to Sawyer. She may be on to something.

  402. Kathy says:

    Totally love how the show is making Sawyer give a darn about people.

    I am really sick of how whiney-ish and vague Dan is. I’m sorry but if people who had all this bad stuff happen to them they would want some damn answers especially another man of science like Jack. Jack has already be jerked around on the getting to leave the island before with Ben so he would be especially prone to needing to hear some real answers. He is ether to sick/weakened to care or to addicted to the pain killers to care.

    I think it’s sooooooooo funny how even when you could be marooned on an island things like Heroin or painkillers or guns (and plenty of them) can find you and test you. Makes for good TV though.

    I pretty much got that Widmore and Ben were each others’ constants the moment Ben showed up in his room. It would explain Widmore’s lack of shock, and why Ben says he “can’t” kill Widmore. No one would want their constant dead.

  403. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215041"]
    I pretty much got that Widmore and Ben were each others’ constants the moment Ben showed up in his room. It would explain Widmore’s lack of shock, and why Ben says he “can’t” kill Widmore. No one would want their constant dead.[/quote]
    Good point, that very well might be the reason.

  404. Bobola says:

    [quote comment="214015"]My only criticism is that Sayid took Ben at his word that the bald dude killed Nadia, with the only evidence being a photo that could easily have been doctored. I would have imagined Sayid still had trust issues with Ben – unless there is something IMPORTANT, and as yet unseen, that happened between tonight’s island time and the October 2005 desert funeral procession.

    Definitely an episode full of surprises, revelations, easter eggs and of course, even more questions.

    “Australia’s the key to the game.”

    : ) P[/quote]

    “The bald dude” ….uhh, yah mean John Locke…or Bernard?
    oh, you mean…the guy with the shaved head in Iraq!

  405. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215016"][quote comment="214970"]
    Perhaps in coming to the island, Rousseau was the one afflicted with the “sickness” but it manifested itself differently in her than in Desmond or Minkowski. Perhaps everything we have heard of her time on the island is skewed by that sickness.
    [/quote]
    What if… Danielle was part of an original (initial) effort by Widmore to reclaim the island. Her ‘expedition’ was out hunting for it… met their fate… sickness… whatever. She was with child when they set off. Maybe her blocking the communications for so many years was really her way off saying – “you can’t reclaim the island… just now”.[/quote]
    ++++++++
    I might be wrong, but I didn’t think that her transmission was blocking communications. I thought Ben had his folks doing that from The Looking Glass?

    Also, in my quest to prove that Danielle was actually somehow in cahoots with the Others, why wouldn’t Ben just turn off the “16 year transmission”? He had total control of the island.

  406. PJSander says:

    Watching the episode again… Hurley is all ABOUT caring for Aaron in the episode. Holding him during their game, carrying him around, cradling him as he cries, making a bed in the laundry basket… yet in Ji Yeon, he wouldn’t hold Sun’s baby – I believe he even said something about not wanting to. I wonder what happens to make him feel so differently?

    : ) P

  407. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215051"]Watching the episode again… Hurley is all ABOUT caring for Aaron in the episode. Holding him during their game, carrying him around, cradling him as he cries, making a bed in the laundry basket… yet in Ji Yeon, he wouldn’t hold Sun’s baby – I believe he even said something about not wanting to. I wonder what happens to make him feel so differently?

    : ) P[/quote]
    Aaron most likely peed through the island diaper. 8>P

  408. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215001"]First time poster, long time reader.

    Does anyone think its strange that Widmore is going through all of this trouble to find Ben on the island (Keamy and crew) but when Ben drops by the penthouse, he hardly sits up for him? I mean, Widmore’s people are pretty much doing everything in their power to find him on the island (for what exactly?)… Then Widmore has him in person (in his bedroom no less) and he seems more bothered by the visit than anything.[/quote]
    I just chalk it up to theatrics. More effective to the viewer if Ben delivers the message in person then by message. It looked like was going to kill Charles, then he drops the “can’t do that” (kill him) bomb to get us wondering why.

    BTW, in looking back, Charles wanted his team to get Ben alive. For the same reason that Ben can’t kill Charles?

  409. PJSander says:

    Another question: When Ben and Locke are barricading themselves in the house, why did they put SO many things in front of the door, but NOTHING in front of any of the windows?

    Also, I expect Ben had his reasons for staying in the living room, but why didn’t Locke or Sawyer suggest they just go down into the basement into one of those “secret” rooms?

    And honestly, Claire’s ENTIRE house exploded and was demolished down to the smoldering FRAME and she survives with a few scratches to the head (with only a flimsy piece of fabric covering her)?

    : ) P

  410. DocH says:

    [quote]
    but I didn’t think that her transmission was blocking communications. I thought Ben had his folks doing that from The Looking Glass?
    [/quote]
    continually transmitting on a frequency EFFECTIVELY jams that frequency, unless someone broadcasting at a higher signal strength gets close enough to override the continual broadcast (check Mike!). Ben may not have even been aware of the freq that Danielles broadcast. Looking Glass comm jam could be for different freqs.
    [quote]
    He (Ben) had total control of the island.
    [/quote]
    Not TOTAL control. Still needed the sonic fence for smoke monster. Did he even know that Danielle was still wandering around out there in her bunker? Des’s boat?
    [quote]
    When Ben and Locke are barricading themselves in the house, why did they put SO many things in front of the door, but NOTHING in front of any of the windows?
    [/quote]
    Easier to come thru a door than a window. Easier to shoot from a window. Easier to shoot those coming thru windows, as they will incumbered.
    [quote]
    … Claire’s ENTIRE house exploded and was demolished down to the smoldering FRAME and she survives with a few scratches to the head (with only a flimsy piece of fabric covering her)?
    [/quote]
    The ABC show recap says she was in the backyard of the house that blew up, not in it. And that she was covered with laundry.

  411. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="215065"]
    The ABC show recap says she was in the backyard of the house that blew up, not in it. And that she was covered with laundry.[/quote]

    Thanks for the reasoning behind barricading the doors but not the windows – still I would have wanted to put SOMETHING in front of MOST of the windows.

    But they want us to believe that Claire heard all those guns shooting and stayed in the back yard to finish hanging the laundry?

    : ) P

  412. Scott says:

    Entertainment Weekly’s episode recap. Easier (for me) than reading through all the disjointed comments here :) – I didn’t see any spoilers, but I’m not as sensitive as some here…

    http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20195369_1,00.html

  413. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215081"]Entertainment Weekly’s episode recap. Easier (for me) than reading through all the disjointed comments here :) – I didn’t see any spoilers, but I’m not as sensitive as some here…

    http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20195369_1,00.html[/quote]

    I like to read other people’s thoughts on the show, even if some are “disjointed”. Isn’t that what this blog is for? But ty for the info.

  414. Scott says:

    I can only take so much of “Is Rousseau Alex’s mother?” “Yes, Ben abducted her!” Etc. But yeah, it’s fun for awhile. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be here, would I?

  415. DocH says:

    [quote comment="215076"]
    But they want us to believe that Claire heard all those guns shooting and stayed in the back yard to finish hanging the laundry?
    [/quote]
    Familiar with the phrase “man (person) of action”? I don’t think I’ve ever seen her run, jump ir even react quickly to anything. Though, she may have chased a sea gull in Par Avion, not sure. She probably stood there like a lump, stunned, uncertain for a bit, then she probably got frantic about where Aaron was, then whumpf! The house goes up.

    … the stunner was that when Smokey went racing by Claire, he was sending her the mental message – “The Dingo (Vincent) Ate Your Baby!”. [:^)

  416. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215065"]
    Not TOTAL control. Still needed the sonic fence for smoke monster. Did he even know that Danielle was still wandering around out there in her bunker? Des’s boat?
    [quote]
    Im fairly certain he knew Danielle was still out there. He stole her baby. A man like Ben would have kept tabs on her, especially if he thought she was insane, as he stated. Who knows if he knew about Des, did he have any cameras in the hatch?
    He has a secret room inside of a secret room, I wonder whose Dharma house that was before?

  417. J.Ro. says:

    [quote comment="215054"][quote comment="215001"]First time poster, long time reader.

    Does anyone think its strange that Widmore is going through all of this trouble to find Ben on the island (Keamy and crew) but when Ben drops by the penthouse, he hardly sits up for him? I mean, Widmore’s people are pretty much doing everything in their power to find him on the island (for what exactly?)… Then Widmore has him in person (in his bedroom no less) and he seems more bothered by the visit than anything.[/quote]
    I just chalk it up to theatrics. More effective to the viewer if Ben delivers the message in person then by message. It looked like was going to kill Charles, then he drops the “can’t do that” (kill him) bomb to get us wondering why.

    BTW, in looking back, Charles wanted his team to get Ben alive. For the same reason that Ben can’t kill Charles?[/quote]
    ___

    Good note. Ben knows they won’t kill him (i.e. why he tells Locke to stay close). Could be proof of a “rule” or an “untouchables” theory?

  418. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215054"][quote comment="215001"]First time poster, long time reader.

    Does anyone think its strange that Widmore is going through all of this trouble to find Ben on the island (Keamy and crew) but when Ben drops by the penthouse, he hardly sits up for him? I mean, Widmore’s people are pretty much doing everything in their power to find him on the island (for what exactly?)… Then Widmore has him in person (in his bedroom no less) and he seems more bothered by the visit than anything.[/quote]
    I just chalk it up to theatrics. More effective to the viewer if Ben delivers the message in person then by message. It looked like was going to kill Charles, then he drops the “can’t do that” (kill him) bomb to get us wondering why.

    BTW, in looking back, Charles wanted his team to get Ben alive. For the same reason that Ben can’t kill Charles?[/quote]
    COMMENT 278

  419. Sensei says:

    Anyone noticed in the scene with Jack in the beginning, his forearm tatto? I don’t remember it I know Jack has a shoulder tatto, but I don’t recall a tatto in his inner forearm, which is big and on the next scene doesnt show…

  420. JamieGirl says:

    [quote comment="215049"][quote comment="215016"][quote comment="214970"]
    Perhaps in coming to the island, Rousseau was the one afflicted with the “sickness” but it manifested itself differently in her than in Desmond or Minkowski. Perhaps everything we have heard of her time on the island is skewed by that sickness.
    [/quote]
    What if… Danielle was part of an original (initial) effort by Widmore to reclaim the island. Her ‘expedition’ was out hunting for it… met their fate… sickness… whatever. She was with child when they set off. Maybe her blocking the communications for so many years was really her way off saying – “you can’t reclaim the island… just now”.[/quote]
    ++++++++
    I might be wrong, but I didn’t think that her transmission was blocking communications. I thought Ben had his folks doing that from The Looking Glass?

    Also, in my quest to prove that Danielle was actually somehow in cahoots with the Others, why wouldn’t Ben just turn off the “16 year transmission”? He had total control of the island.[/quote]

    IMO no woman 7 mos pregant goes on such an expedition. She was prob brought there just as naively as Juliet.

  421. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215065"]
    Not TOTAL control. Still needed the sonic fence for smoke monster. Did he even know that Danielle was still wandering around out there in her bunker? Des’s boat?[/quote]
    Okay, not total control, but it’s still debatable if the Others need protection from Smokey. DHARMA did, but the Others may have just been using for their protection from new comers. (My thought that Ben went to the closet to tell Smokey the fence is off, feel free to attack.) And yes I agree that it’s certainly possilbe that Ben didn’t know Danielle was still around (as you know, I doubt it).

  422. DocH says:

    [quote comment="215299"]
    IMO no woman 7 mos pregant goes on such an expedition. She was prob brought there just as naively as Juliet.
    [/quote]
    I thought it was 6 months, but maybe when her expedition left she did not know she was pregnant OR maybe she wasn’t pregnant when she left OR maybe they did not realize how long it would take them.
    I don’t see her as the “sitting aroung the house, gaining 70 lbs, prego”. She seems kind of rugged, old school, hearty, eastern European. If she and her husband are sea-faring folk, maybe being pregnant while living at-sea is not such a big deal. (Some say fresh air & sun for mom, and constant rocking for the baby, are good things).

  423. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215305"][quote comment="215299"]
    IMO no woman 7 mos pregant goes on such an expedition. She was prob brought there just as naively as Juliet.
    [/quote]
    I thought it was 6 months, but maybe when her expedition left she did not know she was pregnant OR maybe she wasn’t pregnant when she left OR maybe they did not realize how long it would take them.
    I don’t see her as the “sitting aroung the house, gaining 70 lbs, prego”. She seems kind of rugged, old school, hearty, eastern European. If she and her husband are sea-faring folk, maybe being pregnant while living at-sea is not such a big deal. (Some say fresh air & sun for mom, and constant rocking for the baby, are good things).[/quote]
    Or (Sorry Scott but when I have a theory I beat the hell out of it until proven right or wrong) her whole story is b.s. and she was in cahoots. :)

  424. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215277"]Anyone noticed in the scene with Jack in the beginning, his forearm tatto? I don’t remember it I know Jack has a shoulder tatto, but I don’t recall a tatto in his inner forearm, which is big and on the next scene doesnt show…[/quote]
    Yes, I said something to my kids about not remembering that one, though I quickly forgot about it and didn’t notice is was missing later.

  425. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215305"][quote comment="215299"]
    IMO no woman 7 mos pregant goes on such an expedition. She was prob brought there just as naively as Juliet.
    [/quote]
    I thought it was 6 months, but maybe when her expedition left she did not know she was pregnant OR maybe she wasn’t pregnant when she left OR maybe they did not realize how long it would take them.
    I don’t see her as the “sitting aroung the house, gaining 70 lbs, prego”. She seems kind of rugged, old school, hearty, eastern European. If she and her husband are sea-faring folk, maybe being pregnant while living at-sea is not such a big deal. (Some say fresh air & sun for mom, and constant rocking for the baby, are good things).[/quote]
    —————
    Lot of MAYBE’s there. The truth is we the only things we know about Rousseaou is the she was ALex’s biological mother, she’s been on the island for 16 years, she’s french, and possibly insane. I think she is insane because I agree with JamieGirl, but that was the 80′s and pregnant women use to even smoke. Prenatal info has come a long way since the 80′s.

  426. lost4ever says:

    On a sidenote. Let’s Go Cavs. Lebron for 50 today.

  427. DocH says:

    [quote comment="215303"]
    Okay, not total control, but it’s still debatable if the Others need protection from Smokey. DHARMA did, but the Others may have just been using for their protection from new comers. (My thought that Ben went to the closet to tell Smokey the fence is off, feel free to attack.) And yes I agree that it’s certainly possilbe that Ben didn’t know Danielle was still around (as you know, I doubt it).
    [/quote]
    We saw Juliet & Kate race for safety from Smokey to get behind the fence. While I don’t doubt that they kept the fence on to keep out newcomers as well, I doubt they turned it on just because OA815 people were on-island and snooping. I think it was on 24/7/365. Alex, Mikhail, etc… all seem very familiar with the fences capabilities. As for newcomers, our band of Losties breached it easily by climbing up one of the stanchions and dropping over.
    Ben summoning Smokey – “feel free to attack”. Why did Smokey race by “Linus – party of six” for the harder to find mercenaries? Smokey isn’t a rampaging elephant or charging lion… it’s a guard/attack dog. I think it ran-down the “greater evil” (not the first target) in the barracks, when Ben let it out of its kennel. And that Ben knew that would be the case.

  428. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215309"]On a sidenote. Let’s Go Cavs. Lebron for 50 today.[/quote]
    OVER-RATED clap, clap, clap OVER-RATED…Just another B-Ball diva getting special calls. Okay, he’s not over rated, but I hate B-Ball divas. Sadly my Pistons are finished…

    To make the post legit…I got nothin’.

  429. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="215308"]The truth is we the only things we know about Rousseaou is the she was ALex’s biological mother, she’s been on the island for 16 years, she’s french, and possibly insane. I think she is insane because I agree with JamieGirl, but that was the 80′s and pregnant women use to even smoke. Prenatal info has come a long way since the 80′s.[/quote]

    Beg to differ, because the only things we know about Rousseau are what she has told the losties about her past – none of which HAS to be true. I think it IS likely that she is Alex’s mother. Has she been on the island 16 years? Who knows. That transmission might not even BE hers. Is she French? Again, who knows. Her accent is NOT French. The TRANSMISSION was in French.

    And as I said before, if you are leaving a transmission looking for a rescue, and you know more than one language, wouldn’t you leave the transmission in more than one language? Based on her accent, neither French nor English is her first language. That leaves a third language as a possibility.

    So IMO, the woman’s story is full of holes.

    : ) P

  430. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215311"][quote comment="215303"]
    Okay, not total control, but it’s still debatable if the Others need protection from Smokey. DHARMA did, but the Others may have just been using for their protection from new comers. (My thought that Ben went to the closet to tell Smokey the fence is off, feel free to attack.) And yes I agree that it’s certainly possilbe that Ben didn’t know Danielle was still around (as you know, I doubt it).
    [/quote]
    We saw Juliet & Kate race for safety from Smokey to get behind the fence. While I don’t doubt that they kept the fence on to keep out newcomers as well, I doubt they turned it on just because OA815 people were on-island and snooping. I think it was on 24/7/365. Alex, Mikhail, etc… all seem very familiar with the fences capabilities. As for newcomers, our band of Losties breached it easily by climbing up one of the stanchions and dropping over.
    Ben summoning Smokey – “feel free to attack”. Why did Smokey race by “Linus – party of six” for the harder to find mercenaries? Smokey isn’t a rampaging elephant or charging lion… it’s a guard/attack dog. I think it ran-down the “greater evil” (not the first target) in the barracks, when Ben let it out of its kennel. And that Ben knew that would be the case.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Just some rebuttle:

    -Smokey confronted Locke and let him go once.
    -IMO the Juliette faked the fear when with Kate to keep the secret.(Am I remembering right that Smokey “read” her as well and let he go?)
    -Sometimes the fence was on “stun” per Mikhail and IMO the fence hasn’t been on since Ben had his folks abandon camp. Alex only entered the panic code and didn’t actually turn the fence off.

    Weak, I know, but it’s all I got to keep my opinion going.

  431. DocH says:

    [quote comment="215306"]
    Or (Sorry Scott but when I have a theory I beat the hell out of it until proven right or wrong) her whole story is b.s. and she was in cahoots. :)
    [/quote]
    Then Scott, the rest of us come and beat the theory to death, drag off the carcass and hide it… hoping to throw it back in his face one day… that’s the ‘circle of life here’ – nothing personal. [:^)
    [quote]
    (now you’ve got me ROTF chuckling)
    [/quote]

  432. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215313"][quote comment="215308"]The truth is we the only things we know about Rousseaou is the she was ALex’s biological mother, she’s been on the island for 16 years, she’s french, and possibly insane. I think she is insane because I agree with JamieGirl, but that was the 80′s and pregnant women use to even smoke. Prenatal info has come a long way since the 80′s.[/quote]

    Beg to differ, because the only things we know about Rousseau are what she has told the losties about her past – none of which HAS to be true. I think it IS likely that she is Alex’s mother. Has she been on the island 16 years? Who knows. That transmission might not even BE hers. Is she French? Again, who knows. Her accent is NOT French. The TRANSMISSION was in French.

    And as I said before, if you are leaving a transmission looking for a rescue, and you know more than one language, wouldn’t you leave the transmission in more than one language? Based on her accent, neither French nor English is her first language. That leaves a third language as a possibility.

    So IMO, the woman’s story is full of holes.

    : ) P[/quote]
    —————
    So we know nothing about her, even better.

  433. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215316"][quote comment="215306"]
    Or (Sorry Scott but when I have a theory I beat the hell out of it until proven right or wrong) her whole story is b.s. and she was in cahoots. :)
    [/quote]
    Then Scott, the rest of us come and beat the theory to death, drag off the carcass and hide it… hoping to throw it back in his face one day… that’s the ‘circle of life here’ – nothing personal. [:^)
    [quote]
    (now you’ve got me ROTF chuckling)
    [/quote][/quote]
    ++++++++
    Exactly. I always show up to admit when I’m wrong(too many to list) and gloat when I’m correct (Aaron an O6er, most recently). I just have a hard time accepting things at face value that don’t make sense to me. It just so happens that even though it’s TV, her story just doesn’t make sense to me.

  434. DocH says:

    [quote comment="215312"]
    Sadly my Pistons are finished…
    [/quote]
    Yeah… but in a week or so, WE are gonna have Stars/Wings! Let’s just hope that if they play on Thursday, they are done before LOST.
    [quote]
    Just some rebuttle:
    -Smokey confronted Locke and let him go once.
    -IMO the Juliette faked the fear when with Kate to keep the secret. (Am I remembering right that Smokey “read” her as well and let he go?)
    -Sometimes the fence was on “stun” per Mikhail and IMO the fence hasn’t been on since Ben had his folks abandon camp. Alex only entered the panic code and didn’t actually turn the fence off.
    [/quote]
    I don’t think any rebuttal is required. I agree with OR understand all of your points. I mentioned the panic code thing too, because as I remember it, a podcast said that they shot, then cut the scene were they explained that the fence was down since Mikhail fried (I think).
    Juliet Quote in LEFT BEHIND – “We don’t know what it is, but we know that it doesn’t like our fences.”

    Who knows? Maybe Smokey has had a ‘face-to-face’ before with all of the Others, to include Ben, Alpert, Juliet, etc… then just needs to look again to recognize you as a friend or foe. If Smokey has never seen you before, like with Locke, then you have to be assessed to see if their is something “of the island” in you. Locke was okay initially because Smokey saw that the island gave Locke his legs back. When Locke was preparing to blow up the hatch at the Swan, Smokey attacked him because exposing the secrets of the Swan would ultimately take from the island (its protective E-M shield).

  435. CAG says:

    [quote comment="214846"]I think we need to reserve final judgement on Ben until all the facts are out. If his overall reason for killing is to ultimately save the entire human race, then that’s understandable, right?[/quote]

    The end justifies the means? Thinking that would make him evil. (IMO)

  436. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215322"][quote comment="215312"]
    Sadly my Pistons are finished…
    [/quote]
    Yeah… but in a week or so, WE are gonna have Stars/Wings! Let’s just hope that if they play on Thursday, they are done before LOST.
    [quote]
    Just some rebuttle:
    -Smokey confronted Locke and let him go once.
    -IMO the Juliette faked the fear when with Kate to keep the secret. (Am I remembering right that Smokey “read” her as well and let he go?)
    -Sometimes the fence was on “stun” per Mikhail and IMO the fence hasn’t been on since Ben had his folks abandon camp. Alex only entered the panic code and didn’t actually turn the fence off.
    [/quote]
    I don’t think any rebuttal is required. I agree with OR understand all of your points. I mentioned the panic code thing too, because as I remember it, a podcast said that they shot, then cut the scene were they explained that the fence was down since Mikhail fried (I think).
    Juliet Quote in LEFT BEHIND – “We don’t know what it is, but we know that it doesn’t like our fences.”

    Who knows? Maybe Smokey has had a ‘face-to-face’ before with all of the Others, to include Ben, Alpert, Juliet, etc… then just needs to look again to recognize you as a friend or foe. If Smokey has never seen you before, like with Locke, then you have to be assessed to see if their is something “of the island” in you. Locke was okay initially because Smokey saw that the island gave Locke his legs back. When Locke was preparing to blow up the hatch at the Swan, Smokey attacked him because exposing the secrets of the Swan would ultimately take from the island (its protective E-M shield).[/quote]
    +++++++++
    Cool. The best debates make you rethink your own points. And you def. make me do that.

    I am a big Wings fan, and I anxiously await a Wings/Stars match up. But I am a long time idiot Pistons fan. Even have a logo tattooed on my calf (I know…don’t bother). So very angry about the lack of passion the boys are playing with and also anxiously awaiting a Dumars rebuild.

  437. lost4ever says:

    Don’t watch ABC promos. Stupid basketball on ABC. What did we learn about smokey last week? Ben can summon it?

  438. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215313"]

    So IMO, the woman’s story is full of holes.
    [/quote]
    ALL of their stories have been full of holes until we have learned them in their FB.

  439. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215336"]Don’t watch ABC promos. Stupid basketball on ABC. What did we learn about smokey last week? Ben can summon it?[/quote]
    I believe that is what they want us to think(and I have fallen for it). Jury is def. out.

  440. JamieGirl says:

    According to Ben, Charles Widemore had Nadia murdered. Sayid then murders the supposed assasin of Nadia, and asks Ben “who’s next?”. Maybe the next person on the hit list is Penny, HOWEVER, Penny is already dead, hence why Widemore is drinking scotch, having nightmares and tells Ben that he will never find her.
    Can someone clarify the sequence of the flash forwards. They are not in chronological order, right?

  441. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215397"]According to Ben, Charles Widemore had Nadia murdered. Sayid then murders the supposed assasin of Nadia, and asks Ben “who’s next?”. Maybe the next person on the hit list is Penny, HOWEVER, Penny is already dead, hence why Widemore is drinking scotch, having nightmares and tells Ben that he will never find her.
    Can someone clarify the sequence of the flash forwards. They are not in chronological order, right?[/quote]
    ————-
    The individual show sequence is in chronological order. For instance, last week’s episode, started with Ben in the Sahara Desert and ended with him in London. Everything in between happened in chronological order. The overall shows, starting with Jack’s FF last year, then Hurley’s, Sayid’s etc. have not been in chrono. order.

  442. JamieGirl says:

    so it is possible, that Penny dies (in some way which Ben is not aware of (yet), and not by Sayid the assasin) after Nadia but before Alex.

  443. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215412"]so it is possible, that Penny dies (in some way which Ben is not aware of (yet), and not by Sayid the assasin) after Nadia but before Alex.[/quote]
    Very possible. Excellent thought. We saw Sayid chasing the ECONOMIST (Still not sold it was Widmore), maybe that was Penny, or like you said maybe Penny is dead already.

  444. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215412"]so it is possible, that Penny dies (in some way which Ben is not aware of (yet), and not by Sayid the assasin) after Nadia but before Alex.[/quote]
    I would think it is possible that she dies by other means, but not before Alex. Desmond talked to her from the boat within island days of Alex’s murder. Ben is at Widmore’s place sometime after Oct. 2005. With Ben’s resources, he would know if she’s been dead for a year(ish).

  445. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215448"][quote comment="215412"]so it is possible, that Penny dies (in some way which Ben is not aware of (yet), and not by Sayid the assasin) after Nadia but before Alex.[/quote]
    I would think it is possible that she dies by other means, but not before Alex. Desmond talked to her from the boat within island days of Alex’s murder. Ben is at Widmore’s place sometime after Oct. 2005. With Ben’s resources, he would know if she’s been dead for a year(ish).[/quote]
    Or did you mean to say BEFORE Nadia, but AFTER Alex?

  446. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="215412"]so it is possible, that Penny dies (in some way which Ben is not aware of (yet), and not by Sayid the assasin) after Nadia but before Alex.[/quote]

    Well, no, not in my opinion.

    Alex dies on the island in late 2004 (island time, whatever that is) WHILE Sayid is on the freighter.

    Nadia dies in October 2005.

    Penny MAY well be dead before October 2005, but not before Alex died. So Penny may die AFTER Alex and BEFORE Nadia, but not the other way around.

    : ) P

  447. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215452"]
    With Ben’s resources, he would know if she’s been dead for a year(ish).[/quote]
    Just as he would have known that the insane mother, whose baby he stole, was still on the island.
    Where did he get his info from? Patchy?

  448. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215457"]
    Penny MAY well be dead before October 2005, but not before Alex died. So Penny may die AFTER Alex and BEFORE Nadia, but not the other way around.

    : ) P[/quote]
    I assume that Jamiegirl meant that. She got her names crossed is all.

  449. JamieGirl says:

    [quote comment="215452"][quote comment="215448"][quote comment="215412"]so it is possible, that Penny dies (in some way which Ben is not aware of (yet), and not by Sayid the assasin) after Nadia but before Alex.[/quote]
    I would think it is possible that she dies by other means, but not before Alex. Desmond talked to her from the boat within island days of Alex’s murder. Ben is at Widmore’s place sometime after Oct. 2005. With Ben’s resources, he would know if she’s been dead for a year(ish).[/quote]
    Or did you mean to say BEFORE Nadia, but AFTER Alex?[/quote]

    I didn’t mean to say Before Nadia, but that makes the most sense.

  450. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215467"][quote comment="215452"][quote comment="215448"][quote comment="215412"]so it is possible, that Penny dies (in some way which Ben is not aware of (yet), and not by Sayid the assasin) after Nadia but before Alex.[/quote]
    I would think it is possible that she dies by other means, but not before Alex. Desmond talked to her from the boat within island days of Alex’s murder. Ben is at Widmore’s place sometime after Oct. 2005. With Ben’s resources, he would know if she’s been dead for a year(ish).[/quote]
    Or did you mean to say BEFORE Nadia, but AFTER Alex?[/quote]

    I didn’t mean to say Before Nadia, but that makes the most sense.[/quote]
    ++++++
    Okay, then I’m with PJ, not possible IMO either.

  451. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215461"][quote comment="215452"]
    With Ben’s resources, he would know if she’s been dead for a year(ish).[/quote]
    Just as he would have known that the insane mother, whose baby he stole, was still on the island.
    Where did he get his info from? Patchy?[/quote]
    ++++++++
    Well, based on my ongoing theory, he wouldn’t get the info from anyone. He has the info about Danielle still being on the island by the “fact” that he and Danielle are in cahoots.
    (Scott is likley spitting at his monitor ;)

  452. JamieGirl says:

    Is Penny “The Economist” that Ben / Sayid are searching for, unaware that she is already dead (I’m speculating on her death).

  453. DocH says:

    From what I remember (okay – interpret) about the podcasts… the FFs are moving backwards toward the island as they occur. So Jack was furthest in the future, then Hurley, Sayid, Kate/Aaron and then Sun. We just FF’d Ben, which would make it the closest to island time in late Oct 05 (Tunisia)… which is less than a year. Last we heard, on island time was Dec 04, but may be early Jan 05 by now. They did say once we start watching an episode (FB or FF), it was chronological. So Ben was in Tunisia, then made it to Iraq (Oct/Nov 05) then to Widmore Nov/Dec 05 (or later). Alex’s murder would be about 11 months (or more) before Ben ever threatened Penelopes’ fate to Widmore.

    As for FBs’, they were never presented in any order, but once they started the narrative, in that particular episode, they were chronological, I humbly submit.

  454. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215481"]Is Penny “The Economist” that Ben / Sayid are searching for, unaware that she is already dead (I’m speculating on her death).[/quote]
    I don’t think so. If I remember correctly, the person Elsa refered to as an economist was male. Which I admit may have been a rouse, but that would then be assuming that Penny knew Sayid was her potential assasin.

    As a mentioned in an earlier comment, I think that Penny is the new name that Ben will be giving to Sayid at the end of the same episode. When we find out that Ben is Sayid’s boss when they meet at the vet hospital to attend to Sayid’s gunshot wound.

  455. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215484"]From what I remember (okay – interpret) about the podcasts… the FFs are moving backwards toward the island as they occur. So Jack was furthest in the future, then Hurley, Sayid, Kate/Aaron and then Sun. We just FF’d Ben, which would make it the closest to island time in late Oct 05 (Tunisia)… which is less than a year. Last we heard, on island time was Dec 04, but may be early Jan 05 by now. They did say once we start watching an episode (FB or FF), it was chronological. So Ben was in Tunisia, then made it to Iraq (Oct/Nov 05) then to Widmore Nov/Dec 05 (or later). Alex’s murder would be about 11 months (or more) before Ben ever threatened Penelopes’ fate to Widmore.

    As for FBs’, they were never presented in any order, but once they started the narrative, in that particular episode, they were chronological, I humbly submit.[/quote]
    I’ll second that, as we are supposedly working towards on island and off island being simultaneous.

  456. JamieGirl says:

    Hammer or DocH can you please put these in chronological order? Also, for arguments sake, let’s assume Penelope Widemore is dead.

    Penny
    Nadia, murdered by Ismael Bakir (supposedly)
    Ismael Bakir (Nadia’s supposed asassin according to Ben
    Elsa, shot by Sayid
    Mr. Avellino, shot by Sayid
    Alex, shot by Keamy
    Person in casket (who I think is Michael under the alias Kevin Johnson), murdered by unknown

  457. RGS says:

    [quote comment="214394"]Here are my thoughts:

    Ben comes back from tunnel very dirty, yes he was in ‘cave’ but still, he seemed full of soot. I know you say Smokey, but was he hugging Smokey? :) Geez.

    Rose said in first season how the sounds from jungle reminded her of Bronx, and we often debate about underground system, etc. So wasn’t it interesting how Smokey looked very much like a subway out of control as he charged the freighter snipers?
    [/quote]

    Yeah I think that was part of the new pieces of information that we learned about the smoke monster. It seems that Ben can summon it, and it seems like it has some kind of relation to a subway train (electrical lights, horn sound, chains clinking), so maybe Ben was covered with soot because he had to feed it some kinda of coal-ish product?

    SRTR4K.

  458. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215487"]Hammer or DocH can you please put these in chronological order? Also, for arguments sake, let’s assume Penelope Widemore is dead.

    Penny
    Nadia, murdered by Ismael Bakir (supposedly)
    Ismael Bakir (Nadia’s supposed asassin according to Ben
    Elsa, shot by Sayid
    Mr. Avellino, shot by Sayid
    Alex, shot by Keamy
    Person in casket (who I think is Michael under the alias Kevin Johnson), murdered by unknown[/quote]
    Here’s my stab :
    Alex
    Penny – because you say so
    Nadia
    Ismael
    Avellino
    Elsa
    Casket dweller

  459. RGS says:

    [quote comment="215485"][quote comment="215481"]Is Penny “The Economist” that Ben / Sayid are searching for, unaware that she is already dead (I’m speculating on her death).[/quote]
    I don’t think so. If I remember correctly, the person Elsa refered to as an economist was male. Which I admit may have been a rouse, but that would then be assuming that Penny knew Sayid was her potential assasin.

    As a mentioned in an earlier comment, I think that Penny is the new name that Ben will be giving to Sayid at the end of the same episode. When we find out that Ben is Sayid’s boss when they meet at the vet hospital to attend to Sayid’s gunshot wound.[/quote]

    Wow, I’ll give it to you, you aren’t hedging your bet that Ben would give Sayid such an assignment in the least. I submit that if Ben has those kind of stones, the show will have officially JTS.

    In keeping consistent with the point Sector made about the missing recruitment scene, I am now believing that the significance of the next name on the list was nothing more than theatrics.

  460. DocH says:

    [quote comment="215485"]
    … If I remember correctly, the person Elsa refered to as an economist was male.
    [/quote]
    I remember a specific reference to the Economist as male too. (And I am not predetermined to associate gender with profession). Can’t research it just now as the puck drops in 5 minutes. Back in three hours.

  461. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215490"]
    Wow, I’ll give it to you, you aren’t hedging your bet that Ben would give Sayid such an assignment in the least. I submit that if Ben has those kind of stones, the show will have officially JTS.

    In keeping consistent with the point Sector made about the missing recruitment scene, I am now believing that the significance of the next name on the list was nothing more than theatrics.[/quote]
    I see you wow and raise you…
    Why is it so far fetched that Ben would use his OBVIOUS assasin to complete his STATED mission of killing Penny. Charles used an assasin to kill Alex. What is this difference, what makes you think that Ben would not do such a thing? I truley don’t understand why it’s not possible and why the show would be ruined by him doing this.

    Double wow.

  462. Missy says:

    [quote comment="215035"][quote comment="214844"][quote comment="214841"]

    RGS (c357): yes I know ordering the deaths would make ben a killer, but in his mind he’s not a killer. He’s very adamant about him not being a killer, in his mind he doesn’t have the blood on his hands.

    [/quote]
    He never actually said he was not a killer. We know he is. I think he said he doesn’t kill innocent people. Now the question is who the hell is innocent in Ben’s mind.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Perhaps “not killing innocent people” is one of the rules, the one Widmore broke. That would probably make Penny innocent too.

    Ben, and Widmore, can manipulate people into doing things that “remove their innocence” therfore making them fair game. So, the kids on the plane, Cindy, and whoever else was on “the list” were/are innocent. Ben wants to surround himself with innocents because Widmore can’t kill them. He also had his soldiers, like Tom for protection. Juliette got marked when she “lost her innocence” by killing an other on the beach to free Kate and Sawyer.

    The rules seem similar to those used in movies about God, the devil, and angles/fallen angles. Each of them has a set of rules they have to follow and “free will” is usually a major factor in which side everyone ends up on.

    I don’t think the rules Ben was referring to have anything to do with the “Not changing the future” “Charlie had to die” concepts. Different kind of rules.

    Circus Dork is watching the show now and asked me to post this for her. She commented that she thinks it is VERY important that Ben gave the gun to Sawyer after pulling it out of the piano bench. He pulled it out, looked at Locke, and tossed it to Sawyer. She may be on to something.[/quote]
    ____________________
    Wow – Great point. I really like that idea. It would make sense as to why Ben would want Locke to kill his dad. Then try to shoot Locke AFTER it has appeared that he has killed his dad. It would take away his innocence, making him fair game to kill, say when Ben shoot him and leaves him in a ditch. Alpert would know this and would suggest Sawyer to do the deed, since I think he’s wanting Locke to be in charge.

  463. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215490"]
    In keeping consistent with the point Sector made about the missing recruitment scene, I am now believing that the significance of the next name on the list was nothing more than theatrics.[/quote]
    Would you please remind me where to find this comment. I can’t seem to locate it.

  464. Missy says:

    [quote comment="215277"]Anyone noticed in the scene with Jack in the beginning, his forearm tatto? I don’t remember it I know Jack has a shoulder tatto, but I don’t recall a tatto in his inner forearm, which is big and on the next scene doesnt show…[/quote]
    ____
    I did notice that. I figured that I must have missed it. I’ll have to back and watch some past shows to see if its there. I do recall reading somewhere that they are all really the actor’s tatoos?? Maybe Mathew got a new one? ( :

  465. JamieGirl says:

    See I thought that Alex was killed in retaliation for Ben killing Penny (but she was under an assumed name / the Economist) so Ben doesn’t know that Penny is dead, and is still searching for her. Charles knows she is dead, which is why he is drinking, having nightmares and tells Ben he will never find her.

  466. Missy says:

    [quote comment="215308"][quote comment="215305"][quote comment="215299"]
    IMO no woman 7 mos pregant goes on such an expedition. She was prob brought there just as naively as Juliet.
    [/quote]
    I thought it was 6 months, but maybe when her expedition left she did not know she was pregnant OR maybe she wasn’t pregnant when she left OR maybe they did not realize how long it would take them.
    I don’t see her as the “sitting aroung the house, gaining 70 lbs, prego”. She seems kind of rugged, old school, hearty, eastern European. If she and her husband are sea-faring folk, maybe being pregnant while living at-sea is not such a big deal. (Some say fresh air & sun for mom, and constant rocking for the baby, are good things).[/quote]
    —————
    Lot of MAYBE’s there. The truth is we the only things we know about Rousseaou is the she was ALex’s biological mother, she’s been on the island for 16 years, she’s french, and possibly insane. I think she is insane because I agree with JamieGirl, but that was the 80′s and pregnant women use to even smoke. Prenatal info has come a long way since the 80′s.[/quote]
    ___
    I agree with the Danielle skepticism. I’m sad that she’s dead – I hope we still get a background story on her. Does anyone else feel that she got a lot less crazy when she started hanging out with our losties? When she first had Sayid she was nuts. She was also certifiable when she tried to take Aaron. But over the last season or so – she’s really come across as being more scrappy and resourceful than loopy.

    Ever since the scene where she has Ben in a net, I’ve been suspicious of her. Even though she WAS telling the losties that he will lie, etc. I felt like she was being forced to go along with a plan. What that plan is, or why – I have no idea. I’m sure he was using Alex as a “pawn and nothing more.”

  467. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215497"]See I thought that Alex was killed in retaliation for Ben killing Penny (but she was under an assumed name / the Economist) so Ben doesn’t know that Penny is dead, and is still searching for her. Charles knows she is dead, which is why he is drinking, having nightmares and tells Ben he will never find her.[/quote]
    No disrespect, but I don’t see how you would think that Alex was killed in retaliation of Ben killing Penny. Ben actually told Charles that he was going to kill Penny because Charles killed Alex. It’s the exact opposite of what you are saying.

  468. Missy says:

    [quote comment="215311"][quote comment="215303"]
    Okay, not total control, but it’s still debatable if the Others need protection from Smokey. DHARMA did, but the Others may have just been using for their protection from new comers. (My thought that Ben went to the closet to tell Smokey the fence is off, feel free to attack.) And yes I agree that it’s certainly possilbe that Ben didn’t know Danielle was still around (as you know, I doubt it).
    [/quote]
    We saw Juliet & Kate race for safety from Smokey to get behind the fence. While I don’t doubt that they kept the fence on to keep out newcomers as well, I doubt they turned it on just because OA815 people were on-island and snooping. I think it was on 24/7/365. Alex, Mikhail, etc… all seem very familiar with the fences capabilities. As for newcomers, our band of Losties breached it easily by climbing up one of the stanchions and dropping over.
    Ben summoning Smokey – “feel free to attack”. Why did Smokey race by “Linus – party of six” for the harder to find mercenaries? Smokey isn’t a rampaging elephant or charging lion… it’s a guard/attack dog. I think it ran-down the “greater evil” (not the first target) in the barracks, when Ben let it out of its kennel. And that Ben knew that would be the case.[/quote]
    _____
    You would think that they would have wanted to remain inside while smokey took care of business. But, instead, Ben says hey everybody we have to run outside. Why would they have to run OUT of the house? Or was it just to get a head start on running for the hills from whomever smokey didn’t eat? But they all just kinda stared at it for awhile. And BTW – what the heck kind of a roar does smokey have – it makes me shudder to make very core.

  469. JamieGirl says:

    [quote comment="215499"][quote comment="215497"]See I thought that Alex was killed in retaliation for Ben killing Penny (but she was under an assumed name / the Economist) so Ben doesn’t know that Penny is dead, and is still searching for her. Charles knows she is dead, which is why he is drinking, having nightmares and tells Ben he will never find her.[/quote]
    No disrespect, but I don’t see how you would think that Alex was killed in retaliation of Ben killing Penny. Ben actually told Charles that he was going to kill Penny because Charles killed Alex. It’s the exact opposite of what you are saying.[/quote]

    So there is no chance that Ben went back in time and told Charles that? Ok JamieGirl, time to go to sleep. You’re right. All this LOST talk has made me crazy. You’re all fascinating me though, as is the show, thought the interpretations are equally fascinating. I have quit most of my other shows… General Hospital (13 yrs), The Hills, Grey’s Anatomy… nothing compares nor do the blogs!

  470. RGS says:

    [quote comment="215493"][quote comment="215490"]
    Wow, I’ll give it to you, you aren’t hedging your bet that Ben would give Sayid such an assignment in the least. I submit that if Ben has those kind of stones, the show will have officially JTS.

    In keeping consistent with the point Sector made about the missing recruitment scene, I am now believing that the significance of the next name on the list was nothing more than theatrics.[/quote]
    I see you wow and raise you…
    Why is it so far fetched that Ben would use his OBVIOUS assasin to complete his STATED mission of killing Penny. Charles used an assasin to kill Alex. What is this difference, what makes you think that Ben would not do such a thing? I truley don’t understand why it’s not possible and why the show would be ruined by him doing this.

    Double wow.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^
    Charles used an assasin to kill Alex, but I don’t think in any way Keamy knew Alex, or was friends with, or at a minimum allied with, someone who cared deeply for Alex. It be like someone asking you to off Dumars.

    Maybe if Sayid had no clue who Penny was, then I could start to buy it. For Ben to give him Penny’s name would be similar to telling him to kill Kate’s mom, or even Walt, or if he had spent significant time with Juliet to kill her sister. I mean Sayid was right there when Des was going through that phone conversation, the emotion etc.

  471. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215501"][quote comment="215499"][quote comment="215497"]See I thought that Alex was killed in retaliation for Ben killing Penny (but she was under an assumed name / the Economist) so Ben doesn’t know that Penny is dead, and is still searching for her. Charles knows she is dead, which is why he is drinking, having nightmares and tells Ben he will never find her.[/quote]
    No disrespect, but I don’t see how you would think that Alex was killed in retaliation of Ben killing Penny. Ben actually told Charles that he was going to kill Penny because Charles killed Alex. It’s the exact opposite of what you are saying.[/quote]

    So there is no chance that Ben went back in time and told Charles that? Ok JamieGirl, time to go to sleep. You’re right. All this LOST talk has made me crazy. You’re all fascinating me though, as is the show, thought the interpretations are equally fascinating. I have quit most of my other shows… General Hospital (13 yrs), The Hills, Grey’s Anatomy… nothing compares nor do the blogs![/quote]
    Your okay Danie-…I mean JamieGirl. :)

    No, I’m pretty sure that they said they would never mix FFs and FBs in one episode for the same character for this very reason(confusing folks).

  472. RGS says:

    [quote comment="215495"][quote comment="215490"]
    In keeping consistent with the point Sector made about the missing recruitment scene, I am now believing that the significance of the next name on the list was nothing more than theatrics.[/quote]
    Would you please remind me where to find this comment. I can’t seem to locate it.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^
    305

  473. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215486"][quote comment="215484"]From what I remember (okay – interpret) about the podcasts… the FFs are moving backwards toward the island as they occur. So Jack was furthest in the future, then Hurley, Sayid, Kate/Aaron and then Sun. We just FF’d Ben, which would make it the closest to island time in late Oct 05 (Tunisia)… which is less than a year. Last we heard, on island time was Dec 04, but may be early Jan 05 by now. They did say once we start watching an episode (FB or FF), it was chronological. So Ben was in Tunisia, then made it to Iraq (Oct/Nov 05) then to Widmore Nov/Dec 05 (or later). Alex’s murder would be about 11 months (or more) before Ben ever threatened Penelopes’ fate to Widmore.

    As for FBs’, they were never presented in any order, but once they started the narrative, in that particular episode, they were chronological, I humbly submit.[/quote]
    I’ll second that, as we are supposedly working towards on island and off island being simultaneous.[/quote]
    ————-
    I beg to differ. How long was Ji Yeon in the womb? Sun’s FF had to occur before Ben’s.

  474. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215502"]
    Charles used an assasin to kill Alex, but I don’t think in any way Keamy knew Alex, or was friends with, or at a minimum allied with, someone who cared deeply for Alex. It be like someone asking you to off Dumars.

    Maybe if Sayid had no clue who Penny was, then I could start to buy it. For Ben to give him Penny’s name would be similar to telling him to kill Kate’s mom, or even Walt, or if he had spent significant time with Juliet to kill her sister. I mean Sayid was right there when Des was going through that phone conversation, the emotion etc.[/quote]
    +++++++
    I see your point. But I am considering everything. Including the manipulation ability of Ben. Sayid was ready to kill (dare I say anyone) when he found out that Nadia was murdered by Widmore. Beef up the story a little bit, and sick the bull dog.

    BTW, if Dumars father killed my wife over some stupid island…GM of Detroit Pistons needed. LOL.

  475. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215504"][quote comment="215495"][quote comment="215490"]
    In keeping consistent with the point Sector made about the missing recruitment scene, I am now believing that the significance of the next name on the list was nothing more than theatrics.[/quote]
    Would you please remind me where to find this comment. I can’t seem to locate it.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^
    305[/quote]
    Thanks.

  476. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215505"][quote comment="215486"][quote comment="215484"]From what I remember (okay – interpret) about the podcasts… the FFs are moving backwards toward the island as they occur. So Jack was furthest in the future, then Hurley, Sayid, Kate/Aaron and then Sun. We just FF’d Ben, which would make it the closest to island time in late Oct 05 (Tunisia)… which is less than a year. Last we heard, on island time was Dec 04, but may be early Jan 05 by now. They did say once we start watching an episode (FB or FF), it was chronological. So Ben was in Tunisia, then made it to Iraq (Oct/Nov 05) then to Widmore Nov/Dec 05 (or later). Alex’s murder would be about 11 months (or more) before Ben ever threatened Penelopes’ fate to Widmore.

    As for FBs’, they were never presented in any order, but once they started the narrative, in that particular episode, they were chronological, I humbly submit.[/quote]
    I’ll second that, as we are supposedly working towards on island and off island being simultaneous.[/quote]
    ————-
    I beg to differ. How long was Ji Yeon in the womb? Sun’s FF had to occur before Ben’s.[/quote]
    I’d have to research, but did they say how old Ji Yeon was during the scene with Hugo in the FF? There could be overlapping time in the FFs and still be started in chronological order.

  477. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215508"]
    I’d have to research, but did they say how old Ji Yeon was during the scene with Hugo in the FF? There could be overlapping time in the FFs and still be started in chronological order.[/quote]
    Ji Yeon was born in that episode. So, if Jin died on 9-22-04, that is their story ( no debating that). Whether he survived the crash or not, the last possible day of conception would be 9-22-04. ADD approx. 9 months 6-22-05.
    UNLESS, Sun’s story is Jin is not the father. Then the conception date could be later.

  478. Hammer says:

    I’m just absolutley racking my brain about Ben’s comment about not being able to kill Charles. I need to call my LAA sponsor.

    Whoo hoo, Pistons tie up the series, going to all the way to the Championship! Sound like an idiot fan?

  479. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215502"]

    Maybe if Sayid had no clue who Penny was, then I could start to buy it. For Ben to give him Penny’s name would be similar to telling him to kill Kate’s mom, or even Walt, or if he had spent significant time with Juliet to kill her sister. I mean Sayid was right there when Des was going through that phone conversation, the emotion etc.[/quote]
    Who is to say Penny’s name is still Penny’s name? Maybe Abbadon is the economist.

  480. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215509"][quote comment="215508"]
    I’d have to research, but did they say how old Ji Yeon was during the scene with Hugo in the FF? There could be overlapping time in the FFs and still be started in chronological order.[/quote]
    Ji Yeon was born in that episode. So, if Jin died on 9-22-04, that is their story ( no debating that). Whether he survived the crash or not, the last possible day of conception would be 9-22-04. ADD approx. 9 months 6-22-05.
    UNLESS, Sun’s story is Jin is not the father. Then the conception date could be later.[/quote]
    ++++++++
    I have to research the podcasts to try to verify either way. Your points are good.

  481. RGS says:

    [quote comment="215506"][quote comment="215502"]
    Charles used an assasin to kill Alex, but I don’t think in any way Keamy knew Alex, or was friends with, or at a minimum allied with, someone who cared deeply for Alex. It be like someone asking you to off Dumars.

    Maybe if Sayid had no clue who Penny was, then I could start to buy it. For Ben to give him Penny’s name would be similar to telling him to kill Kate’s mom, or even Walt, or if he had spent significant time with Juliet to kill her sister. I mean Sayid was right there when Des was going through that phone conversation, the emotion etc.[/quote]
    +++++++
    I see your point. But I am considering everything. Including the manipulation ability of Ben. Sayid was ready to kill (dare I say anyone) when he found out that Nadia was murdered by Widmore. Beef up the story a little bit, and sick the bull dog.

    BTW, if Dumars father killed my wife over some stupid island…GM of Detroit Pistons needed. LOL.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^
    So you can see what kinda stones it would take. Ben has already lead you to the trigger man of your wife. Then he leads you to some other powerful Widmore allies for you to kill. Then, despite looking at your Piston tattoo, tells you I have reason to believe Joe Dumars is also connected.

    Then in the silence that would grip you, as Ben stares at you with those bugged out eyes, you would sit back down on the med. bench and start rubbing your tattoo, uttering, “noooo, it’s not possible…not Joe, not Duuuumaaaarrrrs! You’re mad Benjamin! Mad I say!” Then you would storm off.

  482. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215513"]So you can see what kinda stones it would take. Ben has already lead you to the trigger man of your wife. Then he leads you to some other powerful Widmore allies for you to kill. Then, despite looking at your Piston tattoo, tells you I have reason to believe Joe Dumars is also connected.

    Then in the silence that would grip you, as Ben stares at you with those bugged out eyes, you would sit back down on the med. bench and start rubbing your tattoo, uttering, “noooo, it’s not possible…not Joe, not Duuuumaaaarrrrs!

    You’re mad Benjamin! Mad I say!” Then you would storm off.[/quote]
    You are forgetting that Ben is a “do anything” guy. He has the stones (especially as a TV character). AND you forgot, in your script where Ben produces some documentation that “proves” my beloved Dumars was involved. Instead of storming out. I run to the tattoo shop and get the red circle with diagnal line…common that’s funny and you know it….

  483. Hammer says:

    BTW, you are gonna have an absolute field day when I’m proven wrong on this. :)

  484. RGS says:

    [quote comment="215511"][quote comment="215502"]

    Maybe if Sayid had no clue who Penny was, then I could start to buy it. For Ben to give him Penny’s name would be similar to telling him to kill Kate’s mom, or even Walt, or if he had spent significant time with Juliet to kill her sister. I mean Sayid was right there when Des was going through that phone conversation, the emotion etc.[/quote]
    Who is to say Penny’s name is still Penny’s name? Maybe Abbadon is the economist.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^
    That’s true too, Ben could give Sayid the Penny alias, but Sayid would have still seen the picture of Penny, (not that he would absolutely remember what she looked like, but then again, he might have put her image in his mental roledex because he’s thinkin, “this chick better be all that to save Desmond’s life just by talking to him over the phone.”)

    I like Abaddon as the Economist because I’m not sure how many characters they’re going to keep introducing.

  485. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215515"][quote comment="215513"]So you can see what kinda stones it would take. Ben has already lead you to the trigger man of your wife. Then he leads you to some other powerful Widmore allies for you to kill. Then, despite looking at your Piston tattoo, tells you I have reason to believe Joe Dumars is also connected.

    Then in the silence that would grip you, as Ben stares at you with those bugged out eyes, you would sit back down on the med. bench and start rubbing your tattoo, uttering, “noooo, it’s not possible…not Joe, not Duuuumaaaarrrrs!

    You’re mad Benjamin! Mad I say!” Then you would storm off.[/quote]
    You are forgetting that Ben is a “do anything” guy. He has the stones (especially as a TV character). AND you forgot, in your script where Ben produces some documentation that “proves” my beloved Dumars was involved. Instead of storming out. I run to the tattoo shop and get the red circle with diagnal line…common that’s funny and you know it….[/quote]
    Sayid killing Penny = Isaih killing Mrs. Dumars. I dont see it……maybe Rodman.

  486. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215519"][quote comment="215515"][quote comment="215513"]So you can see what kinda stones it would take. Ben has already lead you to the trigger man of your wife. Then he leads you to some other powerful Widmore allies for you to kill. Then, despite looking at your Piston tattoo, tells you I have reason to believe Joe Dumars is also connected.

    Then in the silence that would grip you, as Ben stares at you with those bugged out eyes, you would sit back down on the med. bench and start rubbing your tattoo, uttering, “noooo, it’s not possible…not Joe, not Duuuumaaaarrrrs!

    You’re mad Benjamin! Mad I say!” Then you would storm off.[/quote]
    You are forgetting that Ben is a “do anything” guy. He has the stones (especially as a TV character). AND you forgot, in your script where Ben produces some documentation that “proves” my beloved Dumars was involved. Instead of storming out. I run to the tattoo shop and get the red circle with diagnal line…common that’s funny and you know it….[/quote]
    Sayid killing Penny = Isaih killing Mrs. Dumars. I dont see it……maybe Rodman.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    You’re no Piston fan. Adrian Dantley would be the believable one. LOL

  487. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215520"]
    You’re no Piston fan. Adrian Dantley would be the believable one. LOL[/quote]
    Told you before, C-town baby. Lebron will tear you guys up again, if you make it that far.

    I only mentioned Abbadon because i went to lostpedia, trying to figure out the scene in comment 305. Maybe Abaddon is like BILL in “Kill Bill”, he has female assassins as his top associates, Elsa and Naomi. They were both wearing similar bracelets. Did anyone ever figure out who R.G. was on Naomi’s bracelet?
    Still working on that “last time you followed your heart instead of your gun?”. I am stumped.

  488. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215518"]
    You would think that they would have wanted to remain inside while smokey took care of business. But, instead, Ben says hey everybody we have to run outside. Why would they have to run OUT of the house? Or was it just to get a head start on running for the hills from whomever smokey didn’t eat? But they all just kinda stared at it for awhile. And BTW – what the heck kind of a roar does smokey have – it makes me shudder to make very core.[/quote]
    —————-
    I thought that odd also. Why not just stay inside until smokey was gone, or hide in Ben’s secret room or the secret room in the secret room ( Whose Dharma house WAS that)? They actually only showed one guy being attacked also. How many were there?

  489. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215494"] It would make sense as to why Ben would want Locke to kill his dad. [/quote]
    Ben killed his own father.

  490. DocH says:

    [quote comment="215505"]
    I beg to differ. How long was Ji Yeon in the womb? Sun’s FF had to occur before Ben’s.[/quote]
    … ADD approx. 9 months 6-22-05.
    UNLESS, Sun’s story is Jin is not the father. Then the conception date could be later.
    [/quote]
    Many possibilities. I agree. How old was Ji Yeon at the grave site?

    If island time is taking longer than off-island time. Maybe the OA6 don’t leave in Jan 05, off-island time. Maybe they leave a few months (or many months) after that, in real-world time, but just days from now in island time. Perhaps Ben popping out in Oct 05 is close to when the two divergent timelines actual collide. The OA6 leave just minutes before Ben and return to civilization in Sep 05… Ben goes out five minutes later and WHOOSH – 24 Oct 05. Then WHAM timelines align. [Plus whatever they show us to fill in the blanks in the next 39 episodes.]

  491. DocH says:

    [quote comment="215494"]
    It would make sense as to why Ben would want Locke to kill his dad.
    [/quote]
    [quote comment="215525"]
    Ben killed his own father.
    [/quote]
    Not kill his (Ben’s) dad. Kill his (Locke’s) dad. – I am just guessing though.

    ALSO: I can see Sayid going after Penny under the right circumstances. Sayid is comfortable and friendly with Des, but not buddies like Des & Charlie. Sayid may “Get Penny” if she proves to be a true Widmore and a threat to the island and the Losties. If we see that Penny genuinely set Des up to go to the island, never really loved him, just played him, to serve her father’s interest, and/or she is connected to the demise of Nadia… Sayid may be a willing participant in “Kill Penny”, particularly if Des dies in defense of the island/Losties. Of course, none of this has to be true (or happen), the only thing that has to happen is that Ben CONVINCES Sayid that it is true.

  492. DocH says:

    [quote comment="215523"]
    They actually only showed one guy being attacked also. How many were there?
    [/quote]
    From the mercenaries we saw on the boat, and the number of different weapons we heard firing at the same time, I’d say there were 4-6 guys (a squad) attacking the barracks, and attacked by Smokey. I am sure they fled in all directions – we only saw the one that leaped into view.

  493. DocH says:

    [quote]
    I beg to differ. How long was Ji Yeon in the womb? Sun’s FF had to occur before Ben’s.[/quote]
    [quote]
    … island time is taking longer than off-island time. … popping out in Oct 05 is close to when the two divergent timelines actual collide. The OA6 leave just minutes before Ben and return to civilization in Sep 05…
    [/quote]
    That might also explain Kate arriving with ‘HER’ son, Aaron.
    OA815 crashes in Sep 04… OA6 discovered/recovered 11-12 months later in real-world time, and Kate with a three month old.

  494. RGS says:

    [quote comment="214846"]I think we need to reserve final judgement on Ben until all the facts are out. If his overall reason for killing is to ultimately save the entire human race, then that’s understandable, right?[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^
    The final scene of the show ultimately confirms in my mind that Ben is totally bad, not an altruistic bone in his body. But first…

    If you subscribe to the idea that Ben doesn’t kill innocent folks…he technically isn’t killing, then you’d have to put Widmore on the same level as Ben, because we haven’t seen him kill anyone, or give orders to kill etc.

    In fact, at a minimum except for the “rule change” (which we don’t know whether accurate or not because Widmore can seemingly make a convincing argument that it was Ben’s fault anyway, so no rule was changed) Widmore and Ben are mirror images of each other.

    Instead of Ben viewing Widmore as having the same level of “innocence” he promises Widmore that he is going to kill his daughter. What in the world could that have to do with protecting the island? Nothing that’s what, he’s just trying to exact revenge. The island is NOT in Widmore’s control in this future flash forward, so as far as Ben should be concerned, it is protected.

    I hope the writer’s make Widmore a good guy now, just to offset all the Ben is a good guy talk. I may even have to start making some Team Widmore T-shirts. Say it with me everyone, Widmore is Good!

  495. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215538"]
    ALSO: I can see Sayid going after Penny under the right circumstances. Sayid is comfortable and friendly with Des, but not buddies like Des & Charlie. Sayid may “Get Penny” if she proves to be a true Widmore and a threat to the island and the Losties. If we see that Penny genuinely set Des up to go to the island, never really loved him, just played him, to serve her father’s interest, and/or she is connected to the demise of Nadia… Sayid may be a willing participant in “Kill Penny”, particularly if Des dies in defense of the island/Losties. Of course, none of this has to be true (or happen), the only thing that has to happen is that Ben CONVINCES Sayid that it is true.[/quote]
    +++++
    Pretty much what I was trying to say, only you said it much better.

  496. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215522"]
    Told you before, C-town baby. Lebron will tear you guys up again, if you make it that far.

    I only mentioned Abbadon because i went to lostpedia, trying to figure out the scene in comment 305. Maybe Abaddon is like BILL in “Kill Bill”, he has female assassins as his top associates, Elsa and Naomi. They were both wearing similar bracelets. Did anyone ever figure out who R.G. was on Naomi’s bracelet?
    Still working on that “last time you followed your heart instead of your gun?”. I am stumped.[/quote]
    +++++++
    I know you’re a Cavs fan, it was a bad joke attempt.
    Doesn’t matter if the Pistons win or lose, Cavs will be Boston Cream Pie.

    I like Abaddon as the economist before Penny. But it could still be Widmore.

  497. Missy says:

    [quote comment="215538"][quote comment="215494"]
    It would make sense as to why Ben would want Locke to kill his dad.
    [/quote]
    [quote comment="215525"]
    Ben killed his own father.
    [/quote]
    Not kill his (Ben’s) dad. Kill his (Locke’s) dad. – I am just guessing though.

    ALSO: I can see Sayid going after Penny under the right circumstances. Sayid is comfortable and friendly with Des, but not buddies like Des & Charlie. Sayid may “Get Penny” if she proves to be a true Widmore and a threat to the island and the Losties. If we see that Penny genuinely set Des up to go to the island, never really loved him, just played him, to serve her father’s interest, and/or she is connected to the demise of Nadia… Sayid may be a willing participant in “Kill Penny”, particularly if Des dies in defense of the island/Losties. Of course, none of this has to be true (or happen), the only thing that has to happen is that Ben CONVINCES Sayid that it is true.[/quote]
    ___
    Sorry – yes I meant for it to ready that Ben wanted Locke to kill his (locke’s) father because in killing his own dad, locke would be stripped of his morality (of sorts) – therefore making him fair game to be killed. This was in reference to the discussion above about why certain people are killed and some are not fair game.

    Just after Locke catches up to Ben (with his dead father on his back) John demands that Ben take him to Jacob. And shortly after that visit Ben shoots John and leaves him for dead in the pit.

    Ben probably knows that John got someone else to kill Mr. Locke since he was able to not die (or something like that). And also Ben was upset that John could hear Jacob when he (Ben) could not.

  498. Polli Kovitch says:

    I agree with lost4ever that Michael Abbadon is a key as the hiring agent for Charlotte, Miles, Frank, Daniel..and NAOMI. His appearance at Santa Rosa Clinic and encounter with Hurley to move him to a “better” clinic and Hurley’s question in the flashforward..”Are they still alive?” suggests that Hurley clearly recognizes Abbadon from the upcoming excape from the Island.

    Libby is tied to all of this and to Abbodon. She was at the clinic with Hurley AND NEVER revealed this to him as she seduced him, she was also standing in line at a cafe with DES ..with impeccable timing to GIVE DES the “escape” BOAT given to her by her dead husband, David..(mmmm who is this?) Now in Shape of Things to Come.. this same boat supposedly TRANSPORTS BEN off of the Island at least to a point where Ben can time-warp to Tunisia.

  499. Sheppard says:

    [quote comment="215502"]
    Maybe if Sayid had no clue who Penny was, then I could start to buy it. For Ben to give him Penny’s name would be similar to telling him to kill Kate’s mom, or even Walt, or if he had spent significant time with Juliet to kill her sister. I mean Sayid was right there when Des was going through that phone conversation, the emotion etc.[/quote]

    You forget that Ben is the master manipulator. If Penny is in hidding and living under an assumed name, then Ben could just give Sayid the new name and tell him to kill her without letting Sayid know who she really is. Although Sayid might well recognize her from Desmond’s picture maybe he will kill her from behind before he looks at her face. And then when he realizes who she really is …. watch out Ben.

  500. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="215665"]Libby is tied to all of this and to Abbodon. She was at the clinic with Hurley AND NEVER revealed this to him as she seduced him, she was also standing in line at a cafe with DES ..with impeccable timing to GIVE DES the “escape” BOAT given to her by her dead husband, David..(mmmm who is this?) Now in Shape of Things to Come.. this same boat supposedly TRANSPORTS BEN off of the Island at least to a point where Ben can time-warp to Tunisia.[/quote]

    “Supposedly” is the key word there. I believe Ben told Sayid he used the boat because he was not yet willing to share with Sayid that he has off-island escapades. I would imagine that the O6 would have had a few discussions during the “rescue” period and after they returned stateside. So since Sayid didn’t know Ben could get off island, I believe we can conclude that it is likely that none of the 06 know he can travel to and from the island. (Not that this has anything to do with the current plot, just making an observation.)

    I doubt that Desmond’s boat is how Ben got off the island because he ended up on the desert floor in Tunisia wearing a parka and exhaling frigid air. We don’t know what his “portal” to the rest of the world is, but I seriously doubt that Desmond’s boat has anything to do with it.

    : ) P

  501. RGS says:

    [quote comment="215667"][quote comment="215502"]
    Maybe if Sayid had no clue who Penny was, then I could start to buy it. For Ben to give him Penny’s name would be similar to telling him to kill Kate’s mom, or even Walt, or if he had spent significant time with Juliet to kill her sister. I mean Sayid was right there when Des was going through that phone conversation, the emotion etc.[/quote]

    You forget that Ben is the master manipulator. If Penny is in hidding and living under an assumed name, then Ben could just give Sayid the new name and tell him to kill her without letting Sayid know who she really is.

    Although Sayid might well recognize her from Desmond’s picture maybe he will kill her from behind before he looks at her face.

    And then when he realizes who she really is …. watch out Ben.[/quote]

    ^^^^^^^
    Just to clarify, my position is that Ben couldn’t give Sayid Penny’s name, AND EXPECT Sayid to kill Penny. I wouldn’t put it past Ben to give Sayid an alias name for her, but that changes the situation, especially if you’re saying that he doesn’t even look at her face before killing her. Those are two slightly different situations.

    As far as Ben convincing Sayid of the situation that DOCH eloquently presented, I would hope that there would be an entire episode to convincing Sayid, and not something along the lines of an edited tape recorded conversation with Penny.

    “I (different pitch) NEV-er (still another voice inflection) Luh-UVD (said really quickly) Desmond.”

  502. leah says:

    when is the shape of thing to come on in england ????

  503. Lins says:

    I think there is a timeline on lostpedia, I haven’t checked it out, but it might be a good resource so that we don’t have to hash out timelines on here.

    I think it is highly possible that the name Ben is going to give Sayid at the end of The Economist is Penny’s…but then I think that’s too predictable. For some reason, I just don’t think Penny is bad, she just has the unfortunate circumstance of being the daughter of a bad person (kind of like Alex with Ben).

    I do think Danielle is a little loopy and I think it’s very strange that she would travel on a scientific expedition via boat at 7 months pregnant. Either she wasn’t that pregnant when she travelled (or not at all and the baby really was Ben’s!) or she wasn’t supposed to be on that boat or she came to the island by other means. But being six months pregnant myself, can’t imagine travelling that close to the end!

    On a funny note…did anyone notice baby Aaron when they were playing that game and the phone rang. He just looked at it like, “Hey guys, anyone want to get that?”.

    Also, it was pretty cool when Bernard called Daniel out on the code from the boat.

  504. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215733"]I think there is a timeline on lostpedia, I haven’t checked it out, but it might be a good resource so that we don’t have to hash out timelines on here.
    [/quote]
    Lostpedia is a good resource, but it is made up from fans like us. So who is to say there timeline is “canon”?

  505. Lins says:

    [quote comment="215745"][quote comment="215733"]I think there is a timeline on lostpedia, I haven’t checked it out, but it might be a good resource so that we don’t have to hash out timelines on here.
    [/quote]
    Lostpedia is a good resource, but it is made up from fans like us. So who is to say there timeline is “canon”?[/quote]

    No one…but I said it might be a good resource, not the only resource. Just thinking it might be a good place to check if you have a question about timelines and then if you don’t agree or still have a question, then we can discuss here…fans like us are pretty good at details too.

  506. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215665"] Now in Shape of Things to Come.. this same boat supposedly TRANSPORTS BEN off of the Island at least to a point where Ben can time-warp to Tunisia.[/quote]
    Agree with the rest, but I’m fairly certain that Des’s boat was a convenient story for Ben to explain to Sayid how he got off the island. Ben isn’t going to tell Sayid about the portal or machine or whatever it turns out to be. That secret is still for only for the priveledged.

  507. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215749"][quote comment="215745"][quote comment="215733"]I think there is a timeline on lostpedia, I haven’t checked it out, but it might be a good resource so that we don’t have to hash out timelines on here.
    [/quote]
    Lostpedia is a good resource, but it is made up from fans like us. So who is to say there timeline is “canon”?[/quote]

    No one…but I said it might be a good resource, not the only resource. Just thinking it might be a good place to check if you have a question about timelines and then if you don’t agree or still have a question, then we can discuss here…fans like us are pretty good at details too.[/quote]
    ——————
    I totally agree. Fans like us, I think, are maybe even better. I was looking at their “FUTURE” timeline just yesterday.

  508. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215720"]

    As far as Ben convincing Sayid of the situation that DOCH eloquently presented, I would hope that there would be an entire episode to convincing Sayid, and not something along the lines of an edited tape recorded conversation with Penny.
    [/quote]
    Sayid didn’t need much convincing last week. Ben showed him a picture from some security camera of a man that worked for Widmore and a story.

  509. jaime says:

    [quote comment="215518"][quote comment="215511"][quote comment="215502"]

    Maybe if Sayid had no clue who Penny was, then I could start to buy it. For Ben to give him Penny’s name would be similar to telling him to kill Kate’s mom, or even Walt, or if he had spent significant time with Juliet to kill her sister. I mean Sayid was right there when Des was going through that phone conversation, the emotion etc.[/quote]
    Who is to say Penny’s name is still Penny’s name? Maybe Abbadon is the economist.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^
    That’s true too, Ben could give Sayid the Penny alias, but Sayid would have still seen the picture of Penny, (not that he would absolutely remember what she looked like, but then again, he might have put her image in his mental roledex because he’s thinkin, “this chick better be all that to save Desmond’s life just by talking to him over the phone.”)

    I like Abaddon as the Economist because I’m not sure how many characters they’re going to keep introducing.[/quote]
    #########################################

    The thing that always intrigued me about the “Economist” was the fact that Elsa told Sayid that “he/she” did not like technology based on the fact that she had to use an old pager.
    When Locke first visited Jacob’s cabin, Ben told Locke “like you John, Jacob does not like technology”

  510. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215681"]

    I doubt that Desmond’s boat is how Ben got off the island because he ended up on the desert floor in Tunisia wearing a parka and exhaling frigid air. We don’t know what his “portal” to the rest of the world is, but I seriously doubt that Desmond’s boat has anything to do with it.
    [/quote]
    Totally agree. He didn’t use Desmond’s boat. He used Doc Brown’s Delorean. There looked to be steam coming off of him also, and the speeded up “whoosh”. My question is how did those 2 armed men know he was there? Did they see him just magically appear?

  511. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215775"][quote comment="215518"][quote comment="215511"][quote comment="215502"]

    Maybe if Sayid had no clue who Penny was, then I could start to buy it. For Ben to give him Penny’s name would be similar to telling him to kill Kate’s mom, or even Walt, or if he had spent significant time with Juliet to kill her sister. I mean Sayid was right there when Des was going through that phone conversation, the emotion etc.[/quote]
    Who is to say Penny’s name is still Penny’s name? Maybe Abbadon is the economist.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^
    That’s true too, Ben could give Sayid the Penny alias, but Sayid would have still seen the picture of Penny, (not that he would absolutely remember what she looked like, but then again, he might have put her image in his mental roledex because he’s thinkin, “this chick better be all that to save Desmond’s life just by talking to him over the phone.”)

    I like Abaddon as the Economist because I’m not sure how many characters they’re going to keep introducing.[/quote]
    #########################################

    The thing that always intrigued me about the “Economist” was the fact that Elsa told Sayid that “he/she” did not like technology based on the fact that she had to use an old pager.
    When Locke first visited Jacob’s cabin, Ben told Locke “like you John, Jacob does not like technology”[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Charles is Jacob’s evil twin.

  512. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215655"]
    Sorry – yes I meant for it to ready that Ben wanted Locke to kill his (locke’s) father because in killing his own dad, locke would be stripped of his morality (of sorts) – therefore making him fair game to be killed. This was in reference to the discussion above about why certain people are killed and some are not fair game.

    Just after Locke catches up to Ben (with his dead father on his back) John demands that Ben take him to Jacob. And shortly after that visit Ben shoots John and leaves him for dead in the pit.

    Ben probably knows that John got someone else to kill Mr. Locke since he was able to not die (or something like that). And also Ben was upset that John could hear Jacob when he (Ben) could not.[/quote]
    I just thought Ben wanted Locke to kill Cooper because Ben had to kill his own father to claim control of the island and be accepted by the hostiles. A sort of “rite of passage”.

  513. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215787"]
    ########################################

    The thing that always intrigued me about the “Economist” was the fact that Elsa told Sayid that “he/she” did not like technology based on the fact that she had to use an old pager.
    When Locke first visited Jacob’s cabin, Ben told Locke “like you John, Jacob does not like technology”[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Charles is Jacob’s evil twin.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Sorry, submitted too quickly. If Charles is the economist, and has issues with technology as Jacob does, then maybe Charles is the evil twin of Jacob. Jacob may be some how “trapped” by Widmore. He may need Locke’s “help” because Ben hasn’t been able to “help” Jacob.

  514. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215788"][quote comment="215655"]
    Sorry – yes I meant for it to ready that Ben wanted Locke to kill his (locke’s) father because in killing his own dad, locke would be stripped of his morality (of sorts) – therefore making him fair game to be killed. This was in reference to the discussion above about why certain people are killed and some are not fair game.

    Just after Locke catches up to Ben (with his dead father on his back) John demands that Ben take him to Jacob. And shortly after that visit Ben shoots John and leaves him for dead in the pit.

    Ben probably knows that John got someone else to kill Mr. Locke since he was able to not die (or something like that). And also Ben was upset that John could hear Jacob when he (Ben) could not.[/quote]
    I just thought Ben wanted Locke to kill Cooper because Ben had to kill his own father to claim control of the island and be accepted by the hostiles. A sort of “rite of passage”.[/quote]

    ++++++++++++++++
    Maybe, or it might just be that you have to prove to group that you will do whatever it takes “in service to the island”. Not so much a “kill your dad” thing.

  515. Lins says:

    [quote comment="215791"][quote comment="215787"]
    ########################################

    The thing that always intrigued me about the “Economist” was the fact that Elsa told Sayid that “he/she” did not like technology based on the fact that she had to use an old pager.
    When Locke first visited Jacob’s cabin, Ben told Locke “like you John, Jacob does not like technology”[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Charles is Jacob’s evil twin.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Sorry, submitted too quickly. If Charles is the economist, and has issues with technology as Jacob does, then maybe Charles is the evil twin of Jacob. Jacob may be some how “trapped” by Widmore. He may need Locke’s “help” because Ben hasn’t been able to “help” Jacob.[/quote]

    *********************
    Or…Charles is Jacob and it really is “his island” like he says to Ben and they had been working together but something happened and that’s why Ben can’t talk to him anymore…and they’re fighting for the island but Charles has limited control through Jacob so he asks Locke for help…there’s a ton of holes in that, but hey, innocent until proven guilty, right?

    Maybe that’s why Ben can’t kill Charles…he still needs Jacob’s help…or maybe he doesn’t know that they are the same person and that’s why Charles was so condescending when Ben snuck into his room…

    Ok, maybe it’s time to call my sponsor!!

  516. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215791"]

    Sorry, submitted too quickly. If Charles is the economist, and has issues with technology as Jacob does, then maybe Charles is the evil twin of Jacob. Jacob may be some how “trapped” by Widmore. He may need Locke’s “help” because Ben hasn’t been able to “help” Jacob.[/quote]
    Ben’s off on his own quest to first figure out the fertility problem and now take revenge on Widmore. Maybe Jacob is the “EVIL” twin though? Why cant Ben find the cabin? Is it because he took someone else there?

  517. JamieGirl says:

    RG could be Captain Gault or Ray the Dr.

  518. DocH says:

    [quote comment="215791"]
    … and has issues with technology as Jacob does, then maybe Charles is the evil twin of Jacob. Jacob may be some how “trapped” by Widmore. He may need Locke’s “help” because Ben hasn’t been able to “help” Jacob.
    [/quote]
    I like this alot!
    Also it could be that Jacob is the evil twin, instead of Widmore (the old double fake reverse of story-telling). Jacob exiled to the island, Smokey is “corrections officer”, Dharma the interlopers that let the inmates (hostiles) take the prison (island) during a riot. (Conjugal visits not allowed anymore!)

    Look at all of the Love Jacob as you Love God kind of stuff, and the brainwashing, and Jacob’s hair. Now think about Charles Manson. Not too far apart are they.

  519. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215793"][quote comment="215791"][quote comment="215787"]
    ########################################

    The thing that always intrigued me about the “Economist” was the fact that Elsa told Sayid that “he/she” did not like technology based on the fact that she had to use an old pager.
    When Locke first visited Jacob’s cabin, Ben told Locke “like you John, Jacob does not like technology”[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Charles is Jacob’s evil twin.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Sorry, submitted too quickly. If Charles is the economist, and has issues with technology as Jacob does, then maybe Charles is the evil twin of Jacob. Jacob may be some how “trapped” by Widmore. He may need Locke’s “help” because Ben hasn’t been able to “help” Jacob.[/quote]

    *********************
    Or…Charles is Jacob and it really is “his island” like he says to Ben and they had been working together but something happened and that’s why Ben can’t talk to him anymore…and they’re fighting for the island but Charles has limited control through Jacob so he asks Locke for help…there’s a ton of holes in that, but hey, innocent until proven guilty, right?

    Maybe that’s why Ben can’t kill Charles…he still needs Jacob’s help…or maybe he doesn’t know that they are the same person and that’s why Charles was so condescending when Ben snuck into his room…

    Ok, maybe it’s time to call my sponsor!![/quote]

    ++++++++++++
    Yeah, you better make the call. LOL. I thought I was throwing out a crazy one….

  520. Lins says:

    You also have to remember that in a Biblical context…Jacob means “deceiver”. There are plenty of other Biblical references in this show…maybe this one will come into play.

  521. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215797"][quote comment="215791"]
    … and has issues with technology as Jacob does, then maybe Charles is the evil twin of Jacob. Jacob may be some how “trapped” by Widmore. He may need Locke’s “help” because Ben hasn’t been able to “help” Jacob.
    [/quote]
    I like this alot!
    Also it could be that Jacob is the evil twin, instead of Widmore (the old double fake reverse of story-telling). Jacob exiled to the island, Smokey is “corrections officer”, Dharma the interlopers that let the inmates (hostiles) take the prison (island) during a riot. (Conjugal visits not allowed anymore!)

    Look at all of the Love Jacob as you Love God kind of stuff, and the brainwashing, and Jacob’s hair. Now think about Charles Manson. Not too far apart are they.[/quote]

    ++++++++++++
    I’ll take either as the evil one at this point. And you make good points to support Jacob being evil. I went with Charles because he supported DHARMA who is doing “immoral” studies to stop “fate”. Maybe Jacob was “trapped” to shut him up…the rest of the “natives” became “hostiles” to help save Jacob….lots of in between stuff….and here we are?

  522. Lins says:

    [quote comment="215801"][quote comment="215797"][quote comment="215791"]
    … and has issues with technology as Jacob does, then maybe Charles is the evil twin of Jacob. Jacob may be some how “trapped” by Widmore. He may need Locke’s “help” because Ben hasn’t been able to “help” Jacob.
    [/quote]
    I like this alot!
    Also it could be that Jacob is the evil twin, instead of Widmore (the old double fake reverse of story-telling). Jacob exiled to the island, Smokey is “corrections officer”, Dharma the interlopers that let the inmates (hostiles) take the prison (island) during a riot. (Conjugal visits not allowed anymore!)

    Look at all of the Love Jacob as you Love God kind of stuff, and the brainwashing, and Jacob’s hair. Now think about Charles Manson. Not too far apart are they.[/quote]

    ++++++++++++
    I’ll take either as the evil one at this point. And you make good points to support Jacob being evil. I went with Charles because he supported DHARMA who is doing “immoral” studies to stop “fate”. Maybe Jacob was “trapped” to shut him up…the rest of the “natives” became “hostiles” to help save Jacob….lots of in between stuff….and here we are?[/quote]

    *****************
    Now that I could possibly believe…but of course I still want to know exactly who or what Jacob is and how he got there…maybe we’ll learn more when the Ben Squad get to his cabin?

  523. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215800"]You also have to remember that in a Biblical context…Jacob means “deceiver”. There are plenty of other Biblical references in this show…maybe this one will come into play.[/quote]
    Good point…..so the call went well? :)

  524. Hammer says:

    More support for the Jacob side?

    “God loves you and he LOVED Jacob.” Not loveS but loveD. Fallen angel?

  525. DocH says:

    I am going to hold-off on the whole “Rules” debate until I see more, but, I will add that Jacks’ “We have to go back” meltdown, in front of Kate, may translate to “We have to break the rules”.

  526. SpinPapi says:

    I think by “he changed the rules” Ben is talking about the Valenzetti Equation. My theory: Ben and Widmore have been battling over this island for some time (obvious) so they’ve been trying to make small changes to the timeline (such as manipulating the survivors) which would result in a LARGE change that spacetime can’t course-correct for.

    And Keamy killing Alex wasn’t about a gentleman’s pact being broken, as it seemed, but really just evidence that Widmore had succeeded in his goal. He controls Penny, Desmond, the freighter-tots. Ben controls Locke, maybe Jack, definitely Sawyer and Sayid. The LOSTies will be split up in camps. Ben didn’t think Keamy’d kill Alex cuz he didn’t know the constants in the Valenzetti Equation had changed.

    One more thought: On these boards we often talk about who’s good and bad. Ben’s a bad dad for sayin that shit to Alex before she died. Michael’s a bad person for killing two people to get his son back. I think this show is about challenging those notions. Trying to figure out what bad and good is, and how we each have a lot of both in us, and the potential, through free will, to make change.

  527. Lins says:

    [quote comment="215803"][quote comment="215800"]You also have to remember that in a Biblical context…Jacob means “deceiver”. There are plenty of other Biblical references in this show…maybe this one will come into play.[/quote]
    Good point…..so the call went well? :)[/quote]

    ****************
    Haha, yes, much calmer now! Put down the brown paper bag and breathe on my own now!

  528. sector7 says:

    RGS wrote: Instead of Ben viewing Widmore as having the same level of “innocence” he promises Widmore that he is going to kill his daughter. What in the world could that have to do with protecting the island? Nothing that’s what, he’s just trying to exact revenge. The island is NOT in Widmore’s control in this future flash forward, so as far as Ben should be concerned, it is protected.

    ______________________________
    As a loving father I’ll say this: If some hired men to capture me and they killed my daughter… Watch out, it would be Punisher time. I could see myself doing the same thing as Ben, and not as polite.

  529. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="214437"]My 2 favorite lines from the show

    1. Sawyer in the house “Who’s Charles Widmore?”
    Locke replies “Later”
    2. Benjamin in Widmore’s penthouse “Im here

    Charles because you murdered my daughter”
    Widmore replies “Don’t stand there looking at me with those horrible eyes of yours”[/quote]

    _______________________

    My favorite line from this one is “You harm so much as one hair on his culry head — I’ll kill you.”

  530. Lins says:

    [quote comment="215812"][quote comment="214437"]My 2 favorite lines from the show

    1. Sawyer in the house “Who’s Charles Widmore?”
    Locke replies “Later”
    2. Benjamin in Widmore’s penthouse “Im here

    Charles because you murdered my daughter”
    Widmore replies “Don’t stand there looking at me with those horrible eyes of yours”[/quote]

    _______________________

    My favorite line from this one is “You harm so much as one hair on his culry head — I’ll kill you.”[/quote]

    ************
    Haha, that was a good one…and what was up with Hurley’s hair all groomed and nice…where did the island frizz go!

  531. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215805"]I am going to hold-off on the whole “Rules” debate until I see more, but, I will add that Jacks’ “We have to go back” meltdown, in front of Kate, may translate to “We have to break the rules”.[/quote]
    I cant wait until the finale, when we see them getting off the island together (isn’t that why they are called the O6, they got rescued together), When Jack turns to Kate and says ” Now, we can NEVER go back” or something to that effect.

  532. Lins says:

    [quote comment="215815"][quote comment="215805"]I am going to hold-off on the whole “Rules” debate until I see more, but, I will add that Jacks’ “We have to go back” meltdown, in front of Kate, may translate to “We have to break the rules”.[/quote]
    I cant wait until the finale, when we see them getting off the island together (isn’t that why they are called the O6, they got rescued together), When Jack turns to Kate and says ” Now, we can NEVER go back” or something to that effect.[/quote]

    ***************
    I can’t wait to see what happens between Jack and Locke and Hurley to make Hurley say the things he says to Jack when Jack comes to visit him in the nut house. Why is he sorry he went with Locke? Does it have something to do with Jacob…or Claire? Why do they have to go back?

  533. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215807"]I think by “he changed the rules” Ben is talking about the Valenzetti Equation. My theory: Ben and Widmore have been battling over this island for some time (obvious) so they’ve been trying to make small changes to the timeline (such as manipulating the survivors) which would result in a LARGE change that spacetime can’t course-correct for.

    And Keamy killing Alex wasn’t about a gentleman’s pact being broken, as it seemed, but really just evidence that Widmore had succeeded in his goal. He controls Penny, Desmond, the freighter-tots. Ben controls Locke, maybe Jack, definitely Sawyer and Sayid. The LOSTies will be split up in camps. Ben didn’t think Keamy’d kill Alex cuz he didn’t know the constants in the Valenzetti Equation had changed.[/quote]
    It’s a good thought. I just can’t go from this:

    BEN: I’m here, Charles, to tell you that I’m going to kill your daughter. Penelope, is it? And once she’s gone… once she’s dead… then you’ll understand how I feel. And you’ll wish you hadn’t changed the rules.

    to: The reason Ben sat in awe was because a “number” was successfully changed. What happened that he was in awe of other than Keamy shooting Alex?

    Did something happened that would lead you to believe that? Because the reason Charles was able to find the island and subsequent actions are because Des turned the key. That was the big change…what else has happened?

  534. DocH says:

    [quote]
    … cant wait until the finale, when we see them getting off the island together
    [/quote]
    [quote]
    … can’t wait to see what happens between Jack and Locke and Hurley to make Hurley say the things he says to Jack when Jack comes to visit him in the nut house…
    [/quote]
    … can’t wait to see Hurley ‘materialize’ in the middle of central Tunisia. Two horsemen ride over the ridge. Hurley tries to speak ‘dude’ to them. The horsemen know and speak like “Bill & Ted” on an Excellent Adventure – time travellers too, one and all. Then they mug Hurley. Hurley whips out his handy telescoping baton and drops them both, not shooting anyone because that is not in his nature. Hops on a horse to ride to town. Horse collapses under the weight and dies. Hurley consumes the horse over the next hour, because he hasn’t eaten in days. Hurley eyeballs the second horse… second horse eyeballs him back, squinting, light bulb goes on over its’ head… then runs away quickly. Hurley finds his way on foot to the hotel. Tells reception that his name is “Dan Moriarity”. Reception says they don’t have a room for him, but that they do have one for a “Dean Moriarity”. Hurley lies, “Uh, yeah… that’s my brother. He told me to come ahead and he’d meet me here in a day or two.”…. (fade to Season 5).

    (sorry – my creative juices needed exercise.)

  535. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215823"][quote]
    … cant wait until the finale, when we see them getting off the island together
    [/quote]
    [quote]
    … can’t wait to see what happens between Jack and Locke and Hurley to make Hurley say the things he says to Jack when Jack comes to visit him in the nut house…
    [/quote]
    … can’t wait to see Hurley ‘materialize’ in the middle of central Tunisia. Two horsemen ride over the ridge. Hurley tries to speak ‘dude’ to them. The horsemen know and speak like “Bill & Ted” on an Excellent Adventure – time travellers too, one and all. Then they mug Hurley. Hurley whips out his handy telescoping baton and drops them both, not shooting anyone because that is not in his nature. Hops on a horse to ride to town. Horse collapses under the weight and dies. Hurley consumes the horse over the next hour, because he hasn’t eaten in days. Hurley eyeballs the second horse… second horse eyeballs him back, squinting, light bulb goes on over its’ head… then runs away quickly. Hurley finds his way on foot to the hotel. Tells reception that his name is “Dan Moriarity”. Reception says they don’t have a room for him, but that they do have one for a “Dean Moriarity”. Hurley lies, “Uh, yeah… that’s my brother. He told me to come ahead and he’d meet me here in a day or two.”…. (fade to Season 5).

    (sorry – my creative juices needed exercise.)[/quote]

    ++++++++++++
    Yeah, you better make the call too. (888-LAA-FAST)

  536. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215721"]when is the shape of thing to come on in england ????[/quote]
    I wish I could help you Leah, but im glad I don’t have that problem.

  537. lost4ever says:

    Are interviews by actors talking about the previous show considered spoilers?

  538. SpinPapi says:

    what is that thing in Ben’s hand? it’s like a magic wand or something. the guy lets him into the building after Ben pulls it out. Ben also pulls it out before thrashing the bedoin dude with a hail of machine-gun bullets. mind conrol? course correction? what?

  539. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215828"]Are interviews by actors talking about the previous show considered spoilers?[/quote]
    IMO yes, because they leak stuff that D & C don’t intend for us to know yet. But just my opinion.

  540. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215829"]what is that thing in Ben’s hand? it’s like a magic wand or something. the guy lets him into the building after Ben pulls it out. Ben also pulls it out before thrashing the bedoin dude with a hail of machine-gun bullets. mind conrol? course correction? what?[/quote]
    A light saber without the light

  541. SpinPapi says:

    [quote comment="215822"]
    It’s a good thought. I just can’t go from this:

    BEN: I’m here, Charles, to tell you that I’m going to kill your daughter. Penelope, is it? And once she’s gone… once she’s dead… then you’ll understand how I feel. And you’ll wish you hadn’t changed the rules.

    to: The reason Ben sat in awe was because a “number” was successfully changed. What happened that he was in awe of other than Keamy shooting Alex?

    Did something happened that would lead you to believe that? Because the reason Charles was able to find the island and subsequent actions are because Des turned the key. That was the big change…what else has happened?[/quote]

    excellent question. what leads me to believe that is when Desmond is told by Ms Hawking that the future can’t be changed, history has a way of course correcting, I think she’s lying. this show has had a strong free will thing going since the beginning. “look at how these folx ended up being fucked up people, yet we’ve mad them your heroes,” the show seems to say.

    it doesn’t seem to judge as a show, although some are judged ON the show, such as Eko. it seems like there’s something going on in this war between Ben and Widmore beyond just all our “heroes” being pawns. my bet’s on their free will entering into the equation, and things like Desmond prolonging Charlie’s life way beyond what history would allow making a difference.

    not tons of evidence for all this. it’s a show and they’re holding their cards close to their vest. but I’m hoping for something like this. what do you think, Hammer?

  542. lost4ever says:

    Get your christmas wish lists ready. The official release date for Season 4 of LOST on Blu-Ray and DVD discs has been confirmed for December 9th 2009.

  543. jaime says:

    [quote comment="215827"][quote comment="215721"]when is the shape of thing to come on in england ????[/quote]
    I wish I could help you Leah, but im glad I don’t have that problem.[/quote]
    #########################
    Hey Leah…looks like it will be on Sunday May 4th @ 9pm.
    All day Sat. May 3rd they will be showing all enhanced eps from season 4

  544. jaime says:

    [quote comment="214623"][quote comment="214544"]Just a few things ….
    1. Does anyone know where to get a screen image of Ben in the Dharma Parka? It’s from the Orchid staion and i want to see the Orchid Sation logo…from my memory we have not seen it yet.
    2. Did you all notice that Charles Widmore had the painting of the Black Rock, which we saw hanging on the auction house wall, on the wall next to his bed?
    3. Regarding Ben’s paiting…this seemed to be a new version. It’s slightly different then the one’s we have seen in the past.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^

    http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=112825&fullsize=1%5B/quote%5D

    #############################
    Perfect, thank you!!! Doesn’t look like an orchid…more like a spiral

  545. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215832"]

    what leads me to believe that is when Desmond is told by Ms Hawking that the future can’t be changed, history has a way of course correcting, I think she’s lying.
    quote]
    D & C, in a podcast, stated something like the rules for time travel in the show were explained pretty well by Ms. Hawking.

  546. Bobbi says:

    [quote comment="215498"][quote comment="215308"][quote comment="215305"][quote comment="215299"]
    quote]
    ___
    I agree with the Danielle skepticism. I’m sad that she’s dead – I hope we still get a background story on her. Does anyone else feel that she got a lot less crazy when she started hanging out with our losties? When she first had Sayid she was nuts. She was also certifiable when she tried to take Aaron. But over the last season or so – she’s really come across as being more scrappy and resourceful than loopy.
    [quote]

    I really just interpret it as she is less crazy now that she is around other humans. 16 years alone in the jungle would certainly make me nuts!~ Now that she was with other people, she was starting to adjust.

  547. Lins says:

    [quote comment="215837"][quote comment="215498"][quote comment="215308"][quote comment="215305"][quote comment="215299"]
    quote]
    ___
    I agree with the Danielle skepticism. I’m sad that she’s dead – I hope we still get a background story on her. Does anyone else feel that she got a lot less crazy when she started hanging out with our losties? When she first had Sayid she was nuts. She was also certifiable when she tried to take Aaron. But over the last season or so – she’s really come across as being more scrappy and resourceful than loopy.
    [quote]

    I really just interpret it as she is less crazy now that she is around other humans. 16 years alone in the jungle would certainly make me nuts!~ Now that she was with other people, she was starting to adjust.[/quote]

    *************
    I don’t think she was alone for those 16 years…just a thought

  548. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="215494"][quote comment="215035"][quote comment="214844"][quote comment="214841"]

    RGS (c357): yes I know ordering the deaths would make ben a killer, but in his mind he’s not a killer. He’s very adamant about him not being a killer, in his mind he doesn’t have the blood on his hands.

    [/quote]
    He never actually said he was not a killer. We know he is. I think he said he doesn’t kill innocent people. Now the question is who the hell is innocent in Ben’s mind.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Perhaps “not killing innocent people” is one of the rules, the one Widmore broke. That would probably make Penny innocent too.

    Ben, and Widmore, can manipulate people into doing things that “remove their innocence” therfore making them fair game. So, the kids on the plane, Cindy, and whoever else was on “the list” were/are innocent. Ben wants to surround himself with innocents because Widmore can’t kill them. He also had his soldiers, like Tom for protection. Juliette got marked when she “lost her innocence” by killing an other on the beach to free Kate and Sawyer.

    The rules seem similar to those used in movies about God, the devil, and angles/fallen angles. Each of them has a set of rules they have to follow and “free will” is usually a major factor in which side everyone ends up on.

    I don’t think the rules Ben was referring to have anything to do with the “Not changing the future” “Charlie had to die” concepts. Different kind of rules.

    Circus Dork is watching the show now and asked me to post this for her. She commented that she thinks it is VERY important that Ben gave the gun to Sawyer after pulling it out of the piano bench. He pulled it out, looked at Locke, and tossed it to Sawyer. She may be on to something.[/quote]
    ____________________
    Wow – Great point. I really like that idea. It would make sense as to why Ben would want Locke to kill his dad. Then try to shoot Locke AFTER it has appeared that he has killed his dad. It would take away his innocence, making him fair game to kill, say when Ben shoot him and leaves him in a ditch. Alpert would know this and would suggest Sawyer to do the deed, since I think he’s wanting Locke to be in charge.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    Following on that. Locke didn’t die when Ben shot him because he was still innocent. Alpert was working to keep Locke innocent and caught Ben by supprise. Ben, being a good chess player always has plans that take him being wrong into consideration.

  549. jaime says:

    Widmore’s possible connection and disconnection to the island….

    As we have seen, Alpert seems to be a sort of king-maker. When it looks like Ben is loosing his grip on things, Alpert approaches Locke who now seems to have Jacob’s favor. He has probably done this before. I thought about the scene when Ben runs out of New Otherton as a boy and runs into Alpert in the jungle.

    What if in the years between this scene and the purge, Jacob is seen to lose confidence in Widmore and Alpert is actively looking for the next leader to anoint. He sees that young Ben has a special connection to the island. In this context, Ben is an actual “boy” who has come to take over Widmore’s place.

  550. jaime says:

    Hence Widmore calling Ben “boy” and saying that “everything that you have was taken from me” (paraphrasing)

  551. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="215804"]More support for the Jacob side?

    “God loves you and he LOVED Jacob.” Not loveS but loveD. Fallen angel?[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    Yes, I had just thought “Fallen Angel” about 10 seconds before reading your post.

  552. Circus Mom says:

    A few things I noticed when re-watching.

    1. The Dr. had fresh stitches on his left cheek when he washed ashore.

    2. Hurley, Locke and Sawyer playing Risk, Just weird.

    3. The look on Sawyers face when ben tossed him the gun is precious.

    4. Why baracade the front door and cover all the windows but not worry about the back door and bedroom windows?

    5. Who did Sayid think was following him. He was beating on Ben untill he saw who it was, then he stoped and asked, what are you doing here?

    6. Ben’s man on the boat is just for show. None of his information comes from Michael.

    7. A lot of history of our losties seems to involve the year 1996. Sayid was looking for Nadia from 1996 to 2004. Desmond had connection to 1996, so did many others.

    8. I think Ben and Widmore are at equal statis in their “armies” Jacob is at a higher level. Who is Widmore’s higher level?

  553. Lins says:

    [quote comment="215872"]A few things I noticed when re-watching.

    3. The look on Sawyers face when ben tossed him the gun is precious.

    Sawyer had a good episode…although I think he yelled “open the d@!$ door” one too many times

    4. Why baracade the front door and cover all the windows but not worry about the back door and bedroom windows?

    I thought about that too when Hurley left Aaron in that back room in the laundry basket, I was worried!

    5. Who did Sayid think was following him. He was beating on Ben untill he saw who it was, then he stoped and asked, what are you doing here?

    I think he thought it was the press…I imagine he’s been in the spotlight already for being an O6er and then to have his wife die made him more of a media interest

    6. Ben’s man on the boat is just for show. None of his information comes from Michael.

    I agree – I think Michael gave him a list of names per Ben’s request, but Ben or someone else did the research

  554. DocH says:

    [quote comment="215872"]
    5. Who did Sayid think was following him. He was beating on Ben untill he saw who it was, then he stoped and asked, what are you doing here?
    [/quote]
    From what I’ve read, Ben saw Sayid on TV being hounded about Nadia’s death by the papparazi following the OA6 around. Sayid said he just wanted to be left alone (to bury his wife). When Ben showed-up on the roof top in Tikrit, Iraq, photographing the ‘alleged’ assassin, then scoping Sayid – Sayid looking up and seeing, what he thought was a papparazi, raced after him to pound him. After a brief thumping, he realized it was Ben – not a photog. That’s when Ben spilled the story about the murder for hire against Nadia.

  555. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="215892"][quote comment="215872"]
    5. Who did Sayid think was following him. He was beating on Ben untill he saw who it was, then he stoped and asked, what are you doing here?
    [/quote]
    From what I’ve read, Ben saw Sayid on TV being hounded about Nadia’s death by the papparazi following the OA6 around. Sayid said he just wanted to be left alone (to bury his wife). When Ben showed-up on the roof top in Tikrit, Iraq, photographing the ‘alleged’ assassin, then scoping Sayid – Sayid looking up and seeing, what he thought was a papparazi, raced after him to pound him. After a brief thumping, he realized it was Ben – not a photog. That’s when Ben spilled the story about the murder for hire against Nadia.[/quote]
    ++++++++
    Sayid hates papparazi more than he hates Ben. Makes me wonder if Ben dosn’t actually halp the O6 escape somehow.

  556. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215855"][quote comment="215804"]More support for the Jacob side?

    “God loves you and he LOVED Jacob.” Not loveS but loveD. Fallen angel?[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    Yes, I had just thought “Fallen Angel” about 10 seconds before reading your post.[/quote]
    +++++++
    Great minds…

  557. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215832"][quote comment="215822"]
    It’s a good thought. I just can’t go from this:

    BEN: I’m here, Charles, to tell you that I’m going to kill your daughter. Penelope, is it? And once she’s gone… once she’s dead… then you’ll understand how I feel. And you’ll wish you hadn’t changed the rules.

    to: The reason Ben sat in awe was because a “number” was successfully changed. What happened that he was in awe of other than Keamy shooting Alex?

    Did something happened that would lead you to believe that? Because the reason Charles was able to find the island and subsequent actions are because Des turned the key. That was the big change…what else has happened?[/quote]

    excellent question. what leads me to believe that is when Desmond is told by Ms Hawking that the future can’t be changed, history has a way of course correcting, I think she’s lying. this show has had a strong free will thing going since the beginning. “look at how these folx ended up being fucked up people, yet we’ve mad them your heroes,” the show seems to say.

    it doesn’t seem to judge as a show, although some are judged ON the show, such as Eko. it seems like there’s something going on in this war between Ben and Widmore beyond just all our “heroes” being pawns. my bet’s on their free will entering into the equation, and things like Desmond prolonging Charlie’s life way beyond what history would allow making a difference.

    not tons of evidence for all this. it’s a show and they’re holding their cards close to their vest. but I’m hoping for something like this. what do you think, Hammer?[/quote]
    +++++++
    I think you have some good points here, though I’m not sure you are correct about Hawking lying.

    But it doesn’t answer my questions of what happened that makes you think the “rule” change has to do the numbers of the Valezetti equation instead of something involving the killing of offspring. (That just made me think that maybe the rule change is killing innocent people, maybe Alex and Penny are considered innocent in the battle?) I mean to say, you might be right, but what is your reasoning.

  558. Hammer says:

    Off topic Deal or No Deal is doing a Star Wars edition. The game isn’t any better, but the characters are on the show…pretty cool.

  559. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="215957"][quote comment="215832"][quote comment="215822"]
    It’s a good thought. I just can’t go from this:

    BEN: I’m here, Charles, to tell you that I’m going to kill your daughter. Penelope, is it? And once she’s gone… once she’s dead… then you’ll understand how I feel. And you’ll wish you hadn’t changed the rules.

    to: The reason Ben sat in awe was because a “number” was successfully changed. What happened that he was in awe of other than Keamy shooting Alex?

    Did something happened that would lead you to believe that? Because the reason Charles was able to find the island and subsequent actions are because Des turned the key. That was the big change…what else has happened?[/quote]

    excellent question. what leads me to believe that is when Desmond is told by Ms Hawking that the future can’t be changed, history has a way of course correcting, I think she’s lying. this show has had a strong free will thing going since the beginning. “look at how these folx ended up being fucked up people, yet we’ve mad them your heroes,” the show seems to say.

    it doesn’t seem to judge as a show, although some are judged ON the show, such as Eko. it seems like there’s something going on in this war between Ben and Widmore beyond just all our “heroes” being pawns. my bet’s on their free will entering into the equation, and things like Desmond prolonging Charlie’s life way beyond what history would allow making a difference.

    not tons of evidence for all this. it’s a show and they’re holding their cards close to their vest. but I’m hoping for something like this. what do you think, Hammer?[/quote]
    +++++++
    I think you have some good points here, though I’m not sure you are correct about Hawking lying.

    But it doesn’t answer my questions of what happened that makes you think the “rule” change has to do the numbers of the Valezetti equation instead of something involving the killing of offspring. (That just made me think that maybe the rule change is killing innocent people, maybe Alex and Penny are considered innocent in the battle?) I mean to say, you might be right, but what is your reasoning.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    The rule change Ben referred to is “Killing innocent people. IMO Alex was a “Innocent person” as is, I beleive Penny. That is why Ben now feels he can kill Penny. Carl may or may not have been a innocent person. Alex told Ben that they had killed Karl and her mother and he still thought the rules would protect her.

    Thinking Lord of the Rings type mythology now. Norse Mythology. The stories by David Eddings in particular. There is a stone, sword or a tailsman involved. Only a truly pure or innocent person can touch/carry/use the item. Each side, light and dark/good and evil trys to gain custody of a good/pure/innocent so as to controll the prize, THE ISLAND?

  560. lost4ever says:

    I figured out why Ben cant kill Charles Widmore. Charles Widmore is innocent and Ben doesn’t kill innocent people.

    They play more like Boston Cream PUFFS, HAMMER. Not worried, Boston owes us.

  561. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="215872"]

    8. I think Ben and Widmore are at equal statis in their “armies” Jacob is at a higher level. Who is Widmore’s higher level?[/quote]
    I think Richard is a step above Ben.

  562. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="215965"]I figured out why Ben cant kill Charles Widmore. Charles Widmore is innocent and Ben doesn’t kill innocent people.

    They play more like Boston Cream PUFFS, HAMMER. Not worried, Boston owes us.[/quote]

    I thought of that, but I don’t think so. Ben needed to be captured alive too. Other than ending the story, why would Ben need to be caught alive? The Rules.

  563. lost4ever says:

    I was kind of joking with that last one. I am not sure if “killing innocent people” is the rule that was “changed”. In Meet Kevin Johnson, Ben made it sound like Widmore would kill innocent people but Ben wouldn’t. If Ben already thought Widmore would kill innocents, then why would he have been so shocked when Keamy killed Alex and so “he changed the rules”? I think it has to do more with family. JMO.

  564. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216084"]I was kind of joking with that last one. I am not sure if “killing innocent people” is the rule that was “changed”. In Meet Kevin Johnson, Ben made it sound like Widmore would kill innocent people but Ben wouldn’t. If Ben already thought Widmore would kill innocents, then why would he have been so shocked when Keamy killed Alex and so “he changed the rules”? I think it has to do more with family. JMO.[/quote]
    Gotcha…and agree.

  565. Hammer says:

    In response to JP’s comment in the April 18th Update thread asking about the dead doctor from the boat…I thought that the boat folks time was ahead of the island. In other words the doctor would have died on the boat chronologically before the islanders would know it…right? The rocket was delayed in getting to island, but did the body arrive before he died? I am guessing that the responder killed the doctor and was lying to Dan.

  566. RGS says:

    [quote comment="216093"]In response to JP’s comment in the April 18th Update thread asking about the dead doctor from the boat…I thought that the boat folks time was ahead of the island. In other words the doctor would have died on the boat chronologically before the islanders would know it…right? The rocket was delayed in getting to island, but did the body arrive before he died? I am guessing that the responder killed the doctor and was lying to Dan.[/quote]

    My take on that situation is that the time it takes for the Morse Code signal to reach the freightor is actually the thing that is distorted. So while they were responding to the transmission Doctor Bricker (the Lovvvvve Boooooat) was still alive.

    He is then subsequently killed, thrown overboard and just floats in on the wrong heading which really mixes up the time distortion.

  567. Lins says:

    [quote comment="216095"][quote comment="216093"]In response to JP’s comment in the April 18th Update thread asking about the dead doctor from the boat…I thought that the boat folks time was ahead of the island. In other words the doctor would have died on the boat chronologically before the islanders would know it…right? The rocket was delayed in getting to island, but did the body arrive before he died? I am guessing that the responder killed the doctor and was lying to Dan.[/quote]

    My take on that situation is that the time it takes for the Morse Code signal to reach the freightor is actually the thing that is distorted. So while they were responding to the transmission Doctor Bricker (the Lovvvvve Boooooat) was still alive.

    He is then subsequently killed, thrown overboard and just floats in on the wrong heading which really mixes up the time distortion.[/quote]

    *********************************
    So whoever killed him (unless he killed himself) must not have heard the Morse conversation? Or did he hear it and assume the worst and since they’re all going crazy on the boat he decided it must be his time to go? This whole time delay thing is a bit confusing!

  568. Sheppard says:

    [quote comment="215872"]A few things I noticed when re-watching.

    1. ….

    8. I think Ben and Widmore are at equal statis in their “armies” Jacob is at a higher level. Who is Widmore’s higher level?[/quote]

    Jacob is not a higher level. He is the prize (along with the island) that they both are ‘playing’ for.

  569. Lins says:

    Something I’ve been wondering about – why did killing Alex only change the rules, why didn’t it break the rules? If family is sacred (as has been mentioned before on here), why would killing Ben’s daughter not break the rules? What kind of game is this that Ben and Widmore are playing that killing one’s daughter constitutes a change in the rules only?

  570. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216095"][quote comment="216093"]In response to JP’s comment in the April 18th Update thread asking about the dead doctor from the boat…I thought that the boat folks time was ahead of the island. In other words the doctor would have died on the boat chronologically before the islanders would know it…right? The rocket was delayed in getting to island, but did the body arrive before he died? I am guessing that the responder killed the doctor and was lying to Dan.[/quote]

    My take on that situation is that the time it takes for the Morse Code signal to reach the freightor is actually the thing that is distorted. So while they were responding to the transmission Doctor Bricker (the Lovvvvve Boooooat) was still alive.

    He is then subsequently killed, thrown overboard and just floats in on the wrong heading which really mixes up the time distortion.[/quote]

    Ahhh yes…I believe you have it.

  571. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="216111"][quote comment="216095"][quote comment="216093"]In response to JP’s comment in the April 18th Update thread asking about the dead doctor from the boat…I thought that the boat folks time was ahead of the island. In other words the doctor would have died on the boat chronologically before the islanders would know it…right? The rocket was delayed in getting to island, but did the body arrive before he died? I am guessing that the responder killed the doctor and was lying to Dan.[/quote]

    My take on that situation is that the time it takes for the Morse Code signal to reach the freightor is actually the thing that is distorted. So while they were responding to the transmission Doctor Bricker (the Lovvvvve Boooooat) was still alive.

    He is then subsequently killed, thrown overboard and just floats in on the wrong heading which really mixes up the time distortion.[/quote]

    Ahhh yes…I believe you have it.[/quote]

    °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

    Every time I try to figure out how this can possibly be the case, I talk myself into and then back out of it’s validity! My brain can’t wrap around this and it is driving me NUTS!

    : ) P

  572. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="216102"]Something I’ve been wondering about – why did killing Alex only change the rules, why didn’t it break the rules? If family is sacred (as has been mentioned before on here), why would killing Ben’s daughter not break the rules? What kind of game is this that Ben and Widmore are playing that killing one’s daughter constitutes a change in the rules only?[/quote]

    Excellent point. The use of the word change indicates that something was set a certain way before the “change”. My theory is that what was set a certain way was a future event: Alex surviving. Ben knew Keamy was a killer, and although he was understandably nervous regarding the situation, firmly believed this killer was not going to kill Alex based on what? A pact between he and Widmore? I find it hard to believe Ben would fall for thinking Widmore is a man of his word. I think Ben only believes what he can see in the future.

  573. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216116"][quote comment="216102"]Something I’ve been wondering about – why did killing Alex only change the rules, why didn’t it break the rules? If family is sacred (as has been mentioned before on here), why would killing Ben’s daughter not break the rules? What kind of game is this that Ben and Widmore are playing that killing one’s daughter constitutes a change in the rules only?[/quote]

    Excellent point. The use of the word change indicates that something was set a certain way before the “change”. My theory is that what was set a certain way was a future event: Alex surviving. Ben knew Keamy was a killer, and although he was understandably nervous regarding the situation, firmly believed this killer was not going to kill Alex based on what? A pact between he and Widmore? I find it hard to believe Ben would fall for thinking Widmore is a man of his word. I think Ben only believes what he can see in the future.[/quote]

    +++++++++++++
    Though I think you guys may be on to something. Something I think may be a flaw is that since Des traveled back in time conciously and made sure Penny would accept his call. Wouldn’t he arrange the same scenario to course correct Alex’s death/life he “saw” her survival in the future.

  574. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="216121"][quote comment="216116"][quote comment="216102"]Something I’ve been wondering about – why did killing Alex only change the rules, why didn’t it break the rules? If family is sacred (as has been mentioned before on here), why would killing Ben’s daughter not break the rules? What kind of game is this that Ben and Widmore are playing that killing one’s daughter constitutes a change in the rules only?[/quote]

    Excellent point. The use of the word change indicates that something was set a certain way before the “change”. My theory is that what was set a certain way was a future event: Alex surviving. Ben knew Keamy was a killer, and although he was understandably nervous regarding the situation, firmly believed this killer was not going to kill Alex based on what? A pact between he and Widmore? I find it hard to believe Ben would fall for thinking Widmore is a man of his word. I think Ben only believes what he can see in the future.[/quote]

    +++++++++++++
    Though I think you guys may be on to something. Something I think may be a flaw is that since Des traveled back in time conciously and made sure Penny would accept his call. Wouldn’t he arrange the same scenario to course correct Alex’s death/life he “saw” her survival in the future.[/quote]

    ________________________
    Well, why didn’t Des marry Pen instead of going to the island? You can say it’s because of what Ms. Hawking said, but maybe it’s because Des going to the island is a “rule” in this story. Some things you can change, but some things you can’t. What can and can’t be changed hasn’t been completely revealed, but the writers are determining what those things are, IMO.

    At the end of the day, it is a work of fiction. 1+1 does not have to equal 2.

  575. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216127"]
    At the end of the day, it is a work of fiction. 1+1 does not have to equal 2.[/quote]
    True, but the producers should follow their own rules. If Des was able to course correct, than Ben should be able to as well. All I’m saying is that is the reason I don’t the think the “rule change” is changing to the future. If so, it would have opened a can of worms and
    Ben would be doing that instead of hunting down Penny.

  576. Lins says:

    [quote comment="216130"][quote comment="216127"]
    At the end of the day, it is a work of fiction. 1+1 does not have to equal 2.[/quote]
    True, but the producers should follow their own rules. If Des was able to course correct, than Ben should be able to as well. All I’m saying is that is the reason I don’t the think the “rule change” is changing to the future. If so, it would have opened a can of worms and
    Ben would be doing that instead of hunting down Penny.[/quote]

    **********************
    So I guess the answer is wait and see :)
    How important are these rules really and do you think we’ll see more of them? I’m still hoping for a really good Ben/Locke/Jacob scene in the near future. They’ve done an excellent job (IMO) of answering questions this season so hopefully we’ll get some more in this last month of season 4!

  577. Previously On Lost says:

    Didn’t see anyone respond to the question from a few days ago but Ben was playing “Moonlight Sonata” by Beethoven. Also the actor who plays Widmore is Australian, which may be why there seemed to be a mix up in his accent. I doubt it was plot related.

  578. lost4ever says:

    Did Widmore even know that Ben had an “adopted” daughter?

  579. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216134"]Did Widmore even know that Ben had an “adopted” daughter?[/quote]
    Tough to say when he learned it, but he wasn’t surprised by that fact when ben accused him of killing her.

  580. lost4ever says:

    What if smokey is people’s souls? Like that scene in the Lord of the Rings.

  581. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216136"]What if smokey is people’s souls? Like that scene in the Lord of the Rings.[/quote]
    I can believe that since it is a sub-idea of my whisperers theory.

  582. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="216135"][quote comment="216134"]Did Widmore even know that Ben had an “adopted” daughter?[/quote]
    Tough to say when he learned it, but he wasn’t surprised by that fact when ben accused him of killing her.[/quote]
    ———–
    Right, he said “that poor girl”. So maybe, he didn’t know that Ben had thought of her as his daughter. And maybe he thinks only blood counts.

  583. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="216137"][quote comment="216136"]What if smokey is people’s souls? Like that scene in the Lord of the Rings.[/quote]
    I can believe that since it is a sub-idea of my whisperers theory.[/quote]
    ————
    I love your whispers theory. Did you suggest in your theory that the whipers maybe act as a lookout for smokey?

  584. Lins says:

    [quote comment="216134"]Did Widmore even know that Ben had an “adopted” daughter?[/quote]

    He had to know otherwise why would Ben have made Alex leave with Danielle and Karl? He seemed to know that Widmore would go after his “family” because he said something to the effect of “if they find out you’re my daughter”…leads me to believe that they knew Ben had a daughter, just maybe didn’t know who she was and then she gave herself up…I mean, why did they not shoot her, they knew to shoot Danielle and Karl, but they knew they would need Alex to negotiate with Ben. Widmore had to have given them that information, how else would they get it? So it seems that Ben knew they would come after Alex, but didn’t think she would actually die…still sounds fishy to me.

  585. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216140"][quote comment="216137"][quote comment="216136"]What if smokey is people’s souls? Like that scene in the Lord of the Rings.[/quote]
    I can believe that since it is a sub-idea of my whisperers theory.[/quote]
    ————
    I love your whispers theory. Did you suggest in your theory that the whipers maybe act as a lookout for smokey?[/quote]
    Well, I never actually said that. But my theory is kind of “open”. I don’t know how they are related to Smokey. Are they totally separate but communicate? Are they separate entities of the same security system? Etc.

  586. Hammer says:

    Oh and thanks for the props on the theory…I sure hope it comes through!

  587. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="216141"]

    “if they find out you’re my daughter”…leads me to believe that they knew Ben had a daughter[/quote]
    That leads me to believe that they didn’t know. Alex was the one that told them she was his daughter. DocH, could probably break that scene down better, with his military experience, than me. They shot Karl first because he was male. Rousseaou, second because that was the next available shot. She got up running. Then Alex started screaming ” Im Ben’s daughter”. Of course, they wouldn’t shoot the person claiming to be Ben’s daughter, what better leverage. Then Keamy, not beleiving Alex is really Ben’s daughter, uses her as a hostage. Ben denounces her and Keamy shoots her. “That poor girl” as Widmore stated.

  588. Lins says:

    [quote comment="216146"][quote comment="216141"]

    “if they find out you’re my daughter”…leads me to believe that they knew Ben had a daughter[/quote]
    That leads me to believe that they didn’t know. Alex was the one that told them she was his daughter. DocH, could probably break that scene down better, with his military experience, than me. They shot Karl first because he was male. Rousseaou, second because that was the next available shot. She got up running. Then Alex started screaming ” Im Ben’s daughter”.

    Of course, they wouldn’t shoot the person claiming to be Ben’s daughter, what better leverage. Then Keamy, not beleiving Alex is really Ben’s daughter, uses her as a hostage. Ben denounces her and Keamy shoots her. “That poor girl” as Widmore stated.[/quote]

    *******************************
    I can see both sides…but I’m going to stick with Widmore knowing Ben had a daughter. I just don’t think Keamy and co. happened to be tracking her and shot all the people around her by chance. I think they knew who they were going after.

    I almost seems like some kind of sick game…Widmore thought Ben would give himself up for his daughter so he used her as a hostage. Ben didn’t think they would kill his daughter so his counter offer was for the mercs to go back to the helicopter and leave. Just seems (to me) that they’re playing a big game for the island? Who knows…I’m probably way off in left field on this one, trying to survive the next four hours of work!!

  589. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="216130"][quote comment="216127"]
    At the end of the day, it is a work of fiction. 1+1 does not have to equal 2.[/quote]
    True, but the producers should follow their own rules. If Des was able to course correct, than Ben should be able to as well. All I’m saying is that is the reason I don’t the think the “rule change” is changing to the future. If so, it would have opened a can of worms and
    Ben would be doing that instead of hunting down Penny.[/quote]

    ______________________
    Des was NOT able to course correct in regards to marrying Pen instead of going to the island. He had the chance, even had time to think about it, but still could not do it. IMO, some things you can change, some things you can’t.

  590. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216150"][quote comment="216130"][quote comment="216127"]
    At the end of the day, it is a work of fiction. 1+1 does not have to equal 2.[/quote]
    True, but the producers should follow their own rules. If Des was able to course correct, than Ben should be able to as well. All I’m saying is that is the reason I don’t the think the “rule change” is changing to the future. If so, it would have opened a can of worms and
    Ben would be doing that instead of hunting down Penny.[/quote]

    ______________________
    Des was NOT able to course correct in regards to marrying Pen instead of going to the island. He had the chance, even had time to think about it, but still could not do it. IMO, some things you can change, some things you can’t.[/quote]

    +++++++++++++++
    Respect your opinion, but…..if Ben saw her in the future, in the way that Des saw the future (I think it was you who said that) then her being killed would need to be course corrected in the Des had to let Charlie die…no?

  591. Hammer says:

    Also Sector, I hope you are correct and I am wrong because the story would be more interesting than Ben just going on a revenge hunt. It just makes more sense to me that it was the rule change.

  592. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="216149"] Ben didn’t think they would kill his daughter so his counter offer was for the mercs to go back to the helicopter and leave. Just seems (to me) that they’re playing a big game for the island? Who knows…I’m probably way off in left field on this one, trying to survive the next four hours of work!![/quote]
    —————
    Im the one off in left field…I like to explore both sides of the map. I wonder where Widmore gets his island info from since “the purge”?

  593. jaime says:

    [quote comment="216133"]Didn’t see anyone respond to the question from a few days ago but Ben was playing “Moonlight Sonata” by Beethoven. .[/quote]
    ##################################
    Actually, the song is by Rachmaninoff. It’s titled Prelude in C# Minor.
    It has also been referred to as The Burning of Moscow and The Day of Judgment. It was played before the men attempted to seized the barracks and was certainly a prelude to war.

  594. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="216155"]Respect your opinion, but…..if Ben saw her in the future, in the way that Des saw the future (I think it was you who said that) then her being killed would need to be course corrected in the Des had to let Charlie die…no?
    Also Sector, I hope you are correct and I am wrong because the story would be more interesting than Ben just going on a revenge hunt. It just makes more sense to me that it was the rule change.[/quote]

    _______________________
    Hey, this blog is all in fun, right? You could be right and I could be wrong, for sure. I’m not trying to be a pest or anything, just trying to make sense of things.

    My rule theory has blossomed into this largely complex tangent and with my luck the show is probably just referring to something insignificant when Ben talks about changing the rules.

    To be clear about what I’m saying, though. Take the analogy of driving from one part of town to another. There are plenty of side roads and shortcuts when traveling from one part of town to another (these would be variables that you can change) that you can travel on to get to a certain point, but it’s likely you will have to travel on at least one or more main roads that there is no alternative for (these would be the rules).

  595. Lins says:

    [quote comment="216157"][quote comment="216149"] Ben didn’t think they would kill his daughter so his counter offer was for the mercs to go back to the helicopter and leave. Just seems (to me) that they’re playing a big game for the island? Who knows…I’m probably way off in left field on this one, trying to survive the next four hours of work!![/quote]
    —————
    Im the one off in left field…I like to explore both sides of the map. I wonder where Widmore gets his island info from since “the purge”?[/quote]

    *********************
    That’s what I would like to know…I suppose if it really is “his island” that he has his ways of knowing what goes on there (I still think he’s Jacob).

  596. DocH says:

    [quote comment="215828"]Are interviews by actors talking about the previous show considered spoilers?[/quote]
    [quote comment="215830"]
    IMO yes, because they leak stuff that D & C don’t intend for us to know yet. But just my opinion.
    [/quote]
    I think it depends. I think the actor interviews on ABCs Official LOST Podcast site are fair game. Creative control is in-place.

  597. wish i were lost says:

    To go way off topic…I am loving this brewing battle between Widmore and Ben. I am still trying to discover what symbolism their battle has.
    My thoughts are that Widmore had control of Dharma, which were a scientific research group. They were trying study the effects of the island in an effort to harness them for Widmore to control and profit from.
    Then Ben comes into the fold and he has more a spiritual view of the island. Although he wants to harness the power of the island, it is for slightly different reasons. He believes in the spiritual power of the island and jacob, whereas Widmore wants profit from it.
    Under Ben’s control they are working towards a utopian society(what kind of utopia is up for debate). With Widmore in control they are working to study the island in an effort to exploit it.
    Science vs Spirit. Am I wrong?

  598. DocH says:

    Ben is not astral/mind projecting & doesn’t need a constant. Only two so far Des/Dan (+Eloise) have been revealed. His body may have travelled thru space/time to get to Tunisia. But he wasn’t mentally projecting across ‘potential’ timelines. Producers revealed in podcast their thought/tease on ‘the rule’

  599. Lins says:

    [quote comment="216179"]Ben is not astral/mind projecting & doesn’t need a constant. Only two so far Des/Dan (+Eloise) have been revealed. His body may have travelled thru space/time to get to Tunisia. But he wasn’t mentally projecting across ‘potential’ timelines. Producers revealed in podcast their thought/tease on ‘the rule’[/quote]

    Don’t forget Minkowski!

  600. dukewm says:

    Island Time
    Real Time
    Time Warp
    Time Travel
    Timelines
    Flashbacks
    Flash Forwards
    Chronology

    Clearly TIME is one of the most important elements to consider when trying to make sense of everything this show is about.

    I’m betting we haven’t seen at least one HUGE reveal that helps piece things together.

    On the chronology of the flash forwards, I don’t hink it matters that much whether Sun’s was before or after Ben’s, although I presume it was before OCT ’05. Her DOC could have been AFTER the crash as we know Jin survived and the gravestone date was designed to deceive someone (Paik?). If there is a relationship of importance among these two flash forwards, we haven’t seen it yet.

    The trouble with all these “time warp” theories is the radio contact between the freighter and the Island. There seems to be a problem with time ONLY when travelling to or from the Island physically.
    (Juliet, Des, Ben)

    I still think aging is completely out of whack for certain individuals, but maybe not everyone.
    Richard – only ages when off Island ?
    WHERE was he conceived ?
    WHERE was he born ?
    Aaron – may have aged on accelerated pace depending on WHEN Kates’ trial actually occurred ?
    Sun’s premature delivery of Ji Yeon – did the development of the fetus accelerate as soon as Sun left the Island ?

    If the rocket took 30 minutes +/- to reach the Island and the Dr. floated up on the beach right before the morse code transmission, the Dr. could have been dead for days (maybe longer)BEFORE the morse code exchange.

    Thanks to lost4ever (542) for the Box Set release date. I just marked my calendar.

  601. jaime says:

    [quote comment="216159"][quote comment="216155"].[/quote]

    _______________________

    My rule theory has blossomed into this largely complex tangent and with my luck the show is probably just referring to something insignificant when Ben talks about changing the rules.

    To be clear about what I’m saying, though. Take the analogy of driving from one part of town to another. There are plenty of side roads and shortcuts when traveling from one part of town to another (these would be variables that you can change) that you can travel on to get to a certain point, but it’s likely you will have to travel on at least one or more main roads that there is no alternative for (these would be the rules).[/quote]
    ###############################
    What have we seen so far…
    An Other has never killed anyone directly that was on ‘the List.’ ‘An Other’ has only killed ‘An Other’ and not suffered punishment after consent was given (i.e. Klugh told Mikhail to kill her.) When Juliet killed Picket, she was banished and marked.

    Ben has never killed anyone on the list. However, he put Goodwin in a situation that would lead to his death. In a sense, island justice was allowed to play out, so Ben’s hands were stain free. Ben still lives by the rules as we see with the freighter and his not wanting to kill innocents.
    The Rules:

    1. Everyone on the List are considered the good guys and are safe from harm.
    2. The others have never killed anyone on the list.
    3. The others only kill one of their own after consent has been given.
    4. Those on the list are to join and be accepted by the others.
    5. Punishment for the death of an other by an other means banishment and marking.
    6. Those on the list can be put into harmful situations that may result in their death.

    This must mean that Alex was on the list. Ben never expected her to be killed in that situation. In this case, the rules were changed because someone on the list was murdered by one seeking communion with the island. It was not supposed to happen.

    Ben specifically said that Widmore had changed the rules, not that he didn’t abide by the rules. By allowing Alex to be murdered, Widmore shows that he has power over the rules. The rules are there to protect the innocent. By murdering Alex, Widmore is now no longer able to protect those on his list. Hence, the introduction of Sayid as assassin. Sayid is now going after all of those that were on Widmore’s list. Now, Widmore is no longer able to protect them because he changed the rules.

    I don’t know about this…wanted to throw it out for discussion

  602. Lins says:

    [quote comment="216229"][quote comment="216159"][quote comment="216155"].[/quote]

    _______________________

    My rule theory has blossomed into this largely complex tangent and with my luck the show is probably just referring to something insignificant when Ben talks about changing the rules.

    To be clear about what I’m saying, though. Take the analogy of driving from one part of town to another. There are plenty of side roads and shortcuts when traveling from one part of town to another (these would be variables that you can change) that you can travel on to get to a certain point, but it’s likely you will have to travel on at least one or more main roads that there is no alternative for (these would be the rules).[/quote]
    ###############################
    What have we seen so far…
    An Other has never killed anyone directly that was on ‘the List.’ ‘An Other’ has only killed ‘An Other’ and not suffered punishment after consent was given (i.e. Klugh told Mikhail to kill her.) When Juliet killed Picket, she was banished and marked.

    Ben has never killed anyone on the list. However, he put Goodwin in a situation that would lead to his death. In a sense, island justice was allowed to play out, so Ben’s hands were stain free. Ben still lives by the rules as we see with the freighter and his not wanting to kill innocents.
    The Rules:

    1. Everyone on the List are considered the good guys and are safe from harm.
    2. The others have never killed anyone on the list.
    3. The others only kill one of their own after consent has been given.
    4. Those on the list are to join and be accepted by the others.
    5. Punishment for the death of an other by an other means banishment and marking.
    6. Those on the list can be put into harmful situations that may result in their death.

    This must mean that Alex was on the list. Ben never expected her to be killed in that situation. In this case, the rules were changed because someone on the list was murdered by one seeking communion with the island. It was not supposed to happen.

    Ben specifically said that Widmore had changed the rules, not that he didn’t abide by the rules. By allowing Alex to be murdered, Widmore shows that he has power over the rules. The rules are there to protect the innocent. By murdering Alex, Widmore is now no longer able to protect those on his list. Hence, the introduction of Sayid as assassin. Sayid is now going after all of those that were on Widmore’s list. Now, Widmore is no longer able to protect them because he changed the rules.

    I don’t know about this…wanted to throw it out for discussion[/quote]

    ********************
    It’s a great theory…wasn’t the list that the Other’s kept referring to in earlier seasons “Jacob’s list”? How does he come into play in all of this?

  603. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="216179"]Ben is not astral/mind projecting & doesn’t need a constant. Only two so far Des/Dan (+Eloise) have been revealed. His body may have travelled thru space/time to get to Tunisia. But he wasn’t mentally projecting across ‘potential’ timelines. Producers revealed in podcast their thought/tease on ‘the rule’[/quote]

    This is all that has been revealed, yes. Hasn’t been revealed Ben can NOT mentally project across ‘potential’ timelines.

    I just listened to the podcast… Where are they talking about the rules?

  604. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="216179"]Ben is not astral/mind projecting & doesn’t need a constant. Only two so far Des/Dan (+Eloise) have been revealed. His body may have travelled thru space/time to get to Tunisia. But he wasn’t mentally projecting across ‘potential’ timelines. Producers revealed in podcast their thought/tease on ‘the rule’[/quote]
    So Ben was Ben physically and consciously in Tunisia. Where as Desmond was just conciously in the past and would need a constant to return to his present body. Ben had no body to return to ( he was all there, BODY and mind). Is that right?

  605. DocH says:

    [quote comment="216183"]
    Don’t forget Minkowski!
    [/quote]
    No proof. I’ve only seen Minkowski in the present day. Sick. Regina Sick. Danielles’ expedition sick. No constants.

  606. Lins says:

    [quote comment="216303"][quote comment="216183"]
    Don’t forget Minkowski!
    [/quote]
    No proof. I’ve only seen Minkowski in the present day. Sick. Regina Sick. Danielles’ expedition sick. No constants.[/quote]

    ******************
    Oh no, I agree that he didn’t have a constant, I just meant that he was also an example that we have of a mind/concious-traveller. I don’t think Regina and Danielle’s team were suffering from effects of concious travelling/not having constants though. Hope I didn’t just confuse you more (I’m pretty sure I confused myself though) :)

  607. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="216309"][quote comment="216303"][quote comment="216183"]
    Don’t forget Minkowski!
    [/quote]
    No proof. I’ve only seen Minkowski in the present day. Sick. Regina Sick. Danielles’ expedition sick. No constants.[/quote]

    ******************
    Oh no, I agree that he didn’t have a constant, I just meant that he was also an example that we have of a mind/concious-traveller. I don’t think Regina and Danielle’s team were suffering from effects of concious travelling/not having constants though. Hope I didn’t just confuse you more (I’m pretty sure I confused myself though) :)[/quote]
    ————–
    I think Danielle’s team ( was she in charge? who knows ) was hit with the sickness, but she was maybe kidnapped and given injections like Claire.

  608. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="216130"][quote comment="216127"]
    At the end of the day, it is a work of fiction. 1+1 does not have to equal 2.[/quote]
    True, but the producers should follow their own rules. If Des was able to course correct, than Ben should be able to as well. All I’m saying is that is the reason I don’t the think the “rule change” is changing to the future. If so, it would have opened a can of worms and
    Ben would be doing that instead of hunting down Penny.[/quote]
    I think they can go back and put things into motion but once someone is dead they stay dead, no changing it.

  609. Keys says:

    Does anyone have a screen capture of when smokey first appears? There was most definately a face there. Even more obvious then ever before. Unfortunately my DVR didn’t record right and if you try to pause it on ABC.com, the put up a friggin ad instead of the paused video.

  610. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216163"][quote comment="215828"]Are interviews by actors talking about the previous show considered spoilers?[/quote]
    [quote comment="215830"]
    IMO yes, because they leak stuff that D & C don’t intend for us to know yet. But just my opinion.
    [/quote]
    I think it depends. I think the actor interviews on ABCs Official LOST Podcast site are fair game. Creative control is in-place.[/quote]
    Agreed. I’ve said in the past that podcasts do not count as spoilers IMO.

  611. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216159"]
    _______________________
    Hey, this blog is all in fun, right? You could be right and I could be wrong, for sure. I’m not trying to be a pest or anything, just trying to make sense of things.
    [/quote]
    Absolutely all in fun. I’m all about good debate. I sure if you were being a pest, folks would likely attack you, then ignore you. Keep up the forward thinking.

  612. RGS says:

    [quote comment="216399"]Does anyone have a screen capture of when smokey first appears? There was most definately a face there. Even more obvious then ever before. Unfortunately my DVR didn’t record right and if you try to pause it on ABC.com, the put up a friggin ad instead of the paused video.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Here are some screencaps, but I couldn’t make out a face.

    http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1402-522.html

  613. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216404"][quote comment="216399"]Does anyone have a screen capture of when smokey first appears? There was most definately a face there. Even more obvious then ever before. Unfortunately my DVR didn’t record right and if you try to pause it on ABC.com, the put up a friggin ad instead of the paused video.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Here are some screencaps, but I couldn’t make out a face.

    http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1402-522.html%5B/quote%5D

    +++++++++++++
    There is one on lostpedia on the Smokey page. If you squint real hard and turn you head slightly to the left and think like you are trying to find shapes in the clouds….it kind of looks like half of a dog face.

  614. RGS says:

    [quote comment="216408"][quote comment="216404"][quote comment="216399"]Does anyone have a screen capture of when smokey first appears? There was most definately a face there. Even more obvious then ever before. Unfortunately my DVR didn’t record right and if you try to pause it on ABC.com, the put up a friggin ad instead of the paused video.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Here are some screencaps, but I couldn’t make out a face.

    http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1402-522.html%5B/quote%5D

    +++++++++++++
    There is one on lostpedia on the Smokey page. If you squint real hard and turn you head slightly to the left and think like you are trying to find shapes in the clouds….it kind of looks like half of a dog face.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^
    What is the angle that your are turning your head to the left? 32 degrees or 33? Also do you have to smile real hard while you are squinting?

  615. RGS says:

    [quote comment="216408"][quote comment="216404"][quote comment="216399"]Does anyone have a screen capture of when smokey first appears? There was most definately a face there. Even more obvious then ever before. Unfortunately my DVR didn’t record right and if you try to pause it on ABC.com, the put up a friggin ad instead of the paused video.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Here are some screencaps, but I couldn’t make out a face.

    http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1402-522.html%5B/quote%5D

    +++++++++++++
    There is one on lostpedia on the Smokey page. If you squint real hard and turn you head slightly to the left and think like you are trying to find shapes in the clouds….it kind of looks like half of a dog face.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^
    Actually upon really trying, I make out a snout, or alternatively the thing that carried the main character around in The Neverending Story.

  616. Sheppard says:

    I think the smoke monster might be part of Ben. He uses the hyroglifics in the hidden room to seperate the smoke monster from himself and then it goes and does its thing. He stayed behind to say goodbye to Alex because he had to merge back with the smoke monster. That is why he was covered in soot when he came out of the room and why he told everyone to run away. He didn’t want anyone to see him merge with smokey.

  617. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216410"][quote comment="216408"][quote comment="216404"][quote comment="216399"]Does anyone have a screen capture of when smokey first appears? There was most definately a face there. Even more obvious then ever before. Unfortunately my DVR didn’t record right and if you try to pause it on ABC.com, the put up a friggin ad instead of the paused video.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Here are some screencaps, but I couldn’t make out a face.

    http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1402-522.html%5B/quote%5D

    +++++++++++++
    There is one on lostpedia on the Smokey page. If you squint real hard and turn you head slightly to the left and think like you are trying to find shapes in the clouds….it kind of looks like half of a dog face.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^
    What is the angle that your are turning your head to the left? 32 degrees or 33? Also do you have to smile real hard while you are squinting?[/quote]

    +++++++++++++++++
    You can use 4 8 15 16 23 or 42 degrees! They all work! Smiling optional.

  618. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216415"]I think the smoke monster might be part of Ben.

    He uses the hyroglifics in the hidden room to seperate the smoke monster from himself and then it goes and does its thing.

    He stayed behind to say goodbye to Alex because he had to merge back with the smoke monster. That is why he was covered in soot when he came out of the room and why he told everyone to run away. He didn’t want anyone to see him merge with smokey.[/quote]

    +++++++++++++++
    That seems out there, since IMO Smokey is part of the islands mythology and Ben is a new comer, but you have good points.

  619. bolddeceiver says:

    I believe Ben, although he doesn’t know it, has lost favor with the island. He can no longer speak to Jacob directly and his cancer had to be taken care of medically and took a while to heal. Maybe the island is a garden of eden where as long as you are considered “innocent” you may live forever free from worry (alpert). But once you lose that innocence you begin to age and get sick just like anyone else. Locke is still considered innocent b/c he can walk and survive gun shots. Rose is another b/c her cancer is gone. This is probably a stretch or has been discussed before. If so my apologies.

  620. bolddeceiver says:

    Also where can I find the famous whispers theory everyone is talking about? Sorry to be off topic.

  621. Michael says:

    [quote comment="216420"]I believe Ben, although he doesn’t know it, has lost favor with the island. He can no longer speak to Jacob directly and his cancer had to be taken care of medically and took a while to heal. Maybe the island is a garden of eden where as long as you are considered “innocent” you may live forever free from worry (alpert). But once you lose that innocence you begin to age and get sick just like anyone else. Locke is still considered innocent b/c he can walk and survive gun shots. Rose is another b/c her cancer is gone. This is probably a stretch or has been discussed before. If so my apologies.[/quote]

    _+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_

    Going along with that thought, is that why Jack is now sick. Because the island no longer favors him or is punishing him?

    I agree that the island might be upset with Ben. But I would look at his cancer as punishment for his behavior.

  622. Michael says:

    [quote comment="216312"][quote comment="216309"][quote comment="216303"][quote comment="216183"]
    Don’t forget Minkowski!
    [/quote]
    No proof. I’ve only seen Minkowski in the present day. Sick. Regina Sick. Danielles’ expedition sick. No constants.[/quote]

    ******************
    Oh no, I agree that he didn’t have a constant, I just meant that he was also an example that we have of a mind/concious-traveller. I don’t think Regina and Danielle’s team were suffering from effects of concious travelling/not having constants though. Hope I didn’t just confuse you more (I’m pretty sure I confused myself though) :)[/quote]
    ————–
    I think Danielle’s team ( was she in charge? who knows ) was hit with the sickness, but she was maybe kidnapped and given injections like Claire.[/quote]

    +_+_+_+_+_

    Good point. I never thought of the others taking Danielle while she was pregnant . Think maybe one of the reasons she is loopy is the others brain washed her like Karl?

  623. Michael says:

    Comment 602
    +_+_+_+_+_+_+_

    Would like to here more about whos on what lists.

    “1. Everyone on the List are considered the good guys and are safe from harm.
    2. The others have never killed anyone on the list.”

    Ben shot locke. Ben being an OTHER, does this mean that Locke is not on a list? We know Patchy said locke was not.

  624. jaime says:

    [quote comment="216479"]Comment 602
    +_+_+_+_+_+_+_

    Would like to here more about whos on what lists.

    “1. Everyone on the List are considered the good guys and are safe from harm.
    2. The others have never killed anyone on the list.”

    Ben shot locke. Ben being an OTHER, does this mean that Locke is not on a list? We know Patchy said locke was not.[/quote]
    #################################
    Honestly i, and everyone else i would assume, would be able to go on and on about lists, who wrote them and who’s on them. If you go to Lostpedia and search “lists” you will get a plethora of information regarding that subject.
    I specially like the lists theories about Jacob’s list.

  625. Michael says:

    Comment 600.
    If the rocket took 30 minutes +/- to reach the Island and the Dr. floated up on the beach right before the morse code transmission, the Dr. could have been dead for days (maybe longer)BEFORE the morse code exchange.

    +_+_+_+_+_+_+_

    Would that apply to the communication from Ben to Alpert off the island and Charlie to Penny of the Island?

    If Charlie communicated to Penny, and penny was in the past or delayed time from the island, Charlie tells her about the boat. But she had not sent a boat yet. Not until she talked to Charlie did she actually get the boat sent.

  626. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="216482"]Comment 600.
    If the rocket took 30 minutes +/- to reach the Island and the Dr. floated up on the beach right before the morse code transmission, the Dr. could have been dead for days (maybe longer)BEFORE the morse code exchange.

    +_+_+_+_+_+_+_

    Would that apply to the communication from Ben to Alpert off the island and Charlie to Penny of the Island?

    If Charlie communicated to Penny, and penny was in the past or delayed time from the island, Charlie tells her about the boat. But she had not sent a boat yet. Not until she talked to Charlie did she actually get the boat sent.[/quote]
    ————-
    That’s a good point about past communications that we have seen between on and off island people. Did Penny send a boat?

  627. DocH says:

    [quote comment="216479"]
    Would like to here more about whos on what lists.
    [/quote]
    [quote comment="216481"]
    Honestly i, and everyone else i would assume, would be able to go on and on about lists, who wrote them and who’s on them. If you go to Lostpedia and search “lists”
    [/quote]
    Agreed – links are:
    http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Lists
    and
    http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Lists/Theories

  628. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216445"]Also where can I find the famous whispers theory everyone is talking about? Sorry to be off topic.[/quote]
    From me! It’s mine…maybe I can get Will & The Gang to give me a thread?

    Here goes:

    As you know, there are whispers that happen sometimes when there is an apparition, sometimes when Smokey appears and sometimes when there is a manifestation from Smokey.

    If you look at the whisper trancripts found on lostpedia.com, you will see that IF they are accurate, many of them CAN be tied directly to folks that have died on or off the island. Some CAN be something Boone might say, Yemi might say, Christian Sheppard, etc.

    I theorize that the whisperers are folks that have passed and are part of the island’s security system. I haven’t decided if they are separate from Smokey but communicate with it or are directly connected to it.

    Also, the whisperers have said they would like to show themselves but fear that it would “ruin” everything.

    I believe that they or Smokey or both show themselves to characters as someone or something (Kate’s horse) that is important to the character.

  629. DocH says:

    [quote comment="216482"]
    If Charlie communicated to Penny, and penny was in the past or delayed time from the island, Charlie tells her about the boat. But she had not sent a boat yet. Not until she talked to Charlie did she actually get the boat sent.[/quote]
    [quote comment="216486"]
    That’s a good point about past communications that we have seen between on and off island people…
    [/quote]
    Best theory I’ve read all week! So when Charlie writes “Not Penny’s Boat” on his had in his death scene… it wasn’t her (or Dad’s) boat… just yet, maybe the next day it was. That one video-link between the two of the them is what sets the freighter mission in action. Timelines start to align.

    BUT – Charlie has already interacted with Naomi – so that means two Naomi’s. One Naomi, back before the freighter mission – recruiting questionable scientists and a pilot, that have seen fake crash footage, and a second Naomi simultaneously inside the time umbrella over the island, setting up the arrival of the scientists sent to exploit the island. (Can an evil twin have an evil twin?)

  630. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="216501"][quote comment="216482"]
    If Charlie communicated to Penny, and penny was in the past or delayed time from the island, Charlie tells her about the boat. But she had not sent a boat yet. Not until she talked to Charlie did she actually get the boat sent.[/quote]
    [quote comment="216486"]
    That’s a good point about past communications that we have seen between on and off island people…
    [/quote]
    Best theory I’ve read all week! So when Charlie writes “Not Penny’s Boat” on his had in his death scene… it wasn’t her (or Dad’s) boat… just yet, maybe the next day it was. That one video-link between the two of the them is what sets the freighter mission in action. Timelines start to align.
    [/quote]
    —————
    Are you saying that really is Penny’s freighter with Captain Gault and Michael on board?

  631. Sheppard says:

    [quote comment="216418"][quote comment="216415"]I think the smoke monster might be part of Ben.

    He uses the hieroglyphics in the hidden room to seperate the smoke monster from himself and then it goes and does its thing.

    He stayed behind to say goodbye to Alex because he had to merge back with the smoke monster. That is why he was covered in soot when he came out of the room and why he told everyone to run away. He didn’t want anyone to see him merge with smokey.[/quote]

    +++++++++++++++
    That seems out there, since IMO Smokey is part of the islands mythology and Ben is a new comer, but you have good points.[/quote]

    Maybe smokey attaches itself to whoever is the leader of the island or whoever controls the hieroglyphics.

  632. DocH says:

    [quote comment="216445"]
    … the famous whispers theory everyone is talking about? Sorry to be off topic.
    [/quote]
    [quote comment="216499"]
    … As you know, there are whispers that happen sometimes when there is an apparition, sometimes when Smokey appears and sometimes when there is a manifestation from Smokey.
    [/quote]
    I don’t disagree with anything Hammer listed.

    I imagine the Whispers as part of ‘experimentation’. Pretend you are in a sensory deprivation tank – like in ‘Altered States’. You are mildly drugged. You can see alright, but there is nothing to see. Your hearing is poor, as you can not focus on what you are hearing. Your mind is very active and suggestable to input from your subconscience. Dreams seem real. Your thoughts, anxieties, fears, hopes, etc… are all magnified many times over.

    Now pretend there are a group of scientists and observers watching this ‘experiment’, talking about you and how they can manipulate your dream state. But they are not all in one room, they are in separate rooms talking about their portion of the experiment. Some try to influence your hopes (redemption) and give you visions (apparitions) to test your dream state. Others try to influence your fears (Smokey and Co.) to test that portion of your dream state, and your response. All of these pokes and prods into your psyche occur at the same time… to see how you will resolve the issues you are facing.

    (Much of LOST revolves around mental health and associated institutions…)

  633. Sheppard says:

    We have now had a flashforward and a flashback for Ben. I hope he doesn’t fade into the background for too long. If the flashforwards are getting closer and closer to the current island time, who will we see over the next few weeks? Jack? Desmond? Locke? Sawyer?

  634. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="216509"].
    covered in soot
    [/quote]
    I thought that looked similar to the ash that was sorrounding Jacob’s Cabin.

  635. DocH says:

    [quote comment="216503"]
    Are you saying that really is Penny’s freighter with Captain Gault and Michael on board?
    [/quote]
    I am not hanging my name on that as “MY” theory, but what we are learning about distorted time makes it hard to rule out as a possibility (one of a billion). Penny gets the call from Charlie, tells dad, dad tells Abbadon to get a vessel, some mercs and scientists together,… Penny may be unaware of any of it. Penny may never have told dad either, she may innocent in her role, but dad was spying on her the entire time, hoping that the Desmond connection came back to her, full circle in his master plan to regain the island.

  636. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="216515"] Penny may be unaware of any of it. Penny may never have told dad either, she may innocent in her role[/quote]
    So it would not REALLY be Penny’s boat. I was confused. I tend to disagree with you on the timing of when the freighter was sent. I beleive the freighter was sent at the end of Season 2, when after the hatch explodes, we see the 2 men in the antarctic call Penny on the phone.

  637. Michael says:

    [quote comment="216503"][quote comment="216501"][quote comment="216482"]
    If Charlie communicated to Penny, and penny was in the past or delayed time from the island, Charlie tells her about the boat. But she had not sent a boat yet. Not until she talked to Charlie did she actually get the boat sent.[/quote]
    [quote comment="216486"]
    That’s a good point about past communications that we have seen between on and off island people…
    [/quote]
    Best theory I’ve read all week! So when Charlie writes “Not Penny’s Boat” on his had in his death scene… it wasn’t her (or Dad’s) boat… just yet, maybe the next day it was. That one video-link between the two of the them is what sets the freighter mission in action. Timelines start to align.
    [/quote]
    —————
    Are you saying that really is Penny’s freighter with Captain Gault and Michael on board?[/quote]
    +_+_+_+_+__+_+_

    Thats where i was going with it. I hadn’t thought about Naomi though. Will have to ponder on that aspect.

  638. DocH says:

    [quote comment="216516"]
    … I tend to disagree with you on the timing of when the freighter was sent. I beleive the freighter was sent at the end of Season 2, when after the hatch explodes, we see the 2 men in the antarctic call Penny on the phone…
    [/quote]
    Again, just saying with TIME ALL MESSED UP, the end of Season 2 in on-island time may be drastically different than off-island… heck Penny may have just hung-up with the artic guys, when WHOOSH, Charlie gets her on the horn from the Looking Glass. Not saying this is the solution, just saying the concept has some (a modicum of) potential.

  639. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="216518"][quote comment="216516"]
    … I tend to disagree with you on the timing of when the freighter was sent. I beleive the freighter was sent at the end of Season 2, when after the hatch explodes, we see the 2 men in the antarctic call Penny on the phone…
    [/quote]
    Again, just saying with TIME ALL MESSED UP, the end of Season 2 in on-island time may be drastically different than off-island… heck Penny may have just hung-up with the artic guys, when WHOOSH, Charlie gets her on the horn from the Looking Glass. Not saying this is the solution, just saying the concept has some (a modicum of) potential.[/quote]
    —————-
    Agreed. It is a great concept. I really hope, at some point, well before the series ends, we are not constantly debating over timeline issues. I think the time line/travel issues are fun, I just hope the whole basis of the show doesn’t rely on them too much. They can do better than that.

  640. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="216513"]

    If the flashforwards are getting closer and closer to the current island time[/quote]
    That is still up for debate. I have listened to the recent podcasts and could not find where they stated this. It does make sense though, that they would do this. I just don’t see how they explain Ji Yeon before Ben. JMHO.

  641. RGS says:

    [quote comment="216520"][quote comment="216513"]

    If the flashforwards are getting closer and closer to the current island time[/quote]
    That is still up for debate. I have listened to the recent podcasts and could not find where they stated this. It does make sense though, that they would do this. I just don’t see how they explain Ji Yeon before Ben. JMHO.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^
    Also in the podcast or that Popular Mechanic article I forget which, D&C state that when we see Harper talking to Juliette and Jack, it really is Harper and not a manifestation. This is a problematic scene for me, because she vanishes into thin air, moreover there are whispers all around that scene (sorry Hammer) and I was hoping that we could cling to that being a consistent sign of apparitions on the island.

    How in the world would they explain Harper vanishing?

  642. jaime says:

    [quote comment="216509"][quote comment="216418"][quote comment="216415"]I think the smoke monster might be part of Ben.

    He uses the hieroglyphics in the hidden room to seperate the smoke monster from himself and then it goes and does its thing.

    He stayed behind to say goodbye to Alex because he had to merge back with the smoke monster. That is why he was covered in soot when he came out of the room and why he told everyone to run away. He didn’t want anyone to see him merge with smokey.[/quote]

    +++++++++++++++
    That seems out there, since IMO Smokey is part of the islands mythology and Ben is a new comer, but you have good points.[/quote]

    Maybe smokey attaches itself to whoever is the leader of the island or whoever controls the hieroglyphics.[/quote]
    ####################################
    I have read theories that it’s possible that Ben put his anger/revenge feelings “into” smokey by possibly touching the materials it is made up of. What do you think?

  643. jaime says:

    The hieroglyphics on Ben’s door have been analyzed and decoded…is this considered a spoiler?

  644. Lins says:

    [quote comment="216520"][quote comment="216513"]

    If the flashforwards are getting closer and closer to the current island time[/quote]
    That is still up for debate. I have listened to the recent podcasts and could not find where they stated this. It does make sense though, that they would do this. I just don’t see how they explain Ji Yeon before Ben. JMHO.[/quote]

    ****************
    Do you mean you don’t see how Ji Yeon could be born before Ben’s flash forward in Iraq with Sayid? I think it would be close…if she was pregnant with Jin’s baby and got pregnant some time after Sept 2004 the baby would be born some time summer of 2005 (I know there are debates about when she got pregnant and if the baby was premature and all that, but assuming a flexible nine month timeline, the baby would have to be born somewhere between June and August of 2005)…Ben’s FF was in Oct of 2005. It’s close.

  645. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="216526"]The hieroglyphics on Ben’s door have been analyzed and decoded…is this considered a spoiler?[/quote]
    Im not sure. Do you have a link to where you found it?

  646. Lins says:

    Going back to whole rules thing…after reading this blog for almost a week since the episode aired and just re-watching it again for like the 5th time…the scene where Ben freaks out and barricades everyone in the cabin is still confusing to me. Why would he tell Locke that he is scared of the people out there? If he and Widmore are supposedly “untouchables” and can’t die, why did he need to barricade himself in and act so scared? He said himself that they wouldn’t hurt him (his reasoning for why Locke needed to stay near him) so if his only reason for the barricade was so that they couldn’t capture him, why not just hide out in his little bat cave? It did seem to me like he gave Sawyer the gun knowing that he would go to get Claire and be shot at and that way Locke would be safe to stay with him. I don’t know…I just don’t understand why he would say he’s scared if he knows they won’t hurt him…what else does he have to be scared for?

  647. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="216527"][quote comment="216520"][quote comment="216513"]

    If the flashforwards are getting closer and closer to the current island time[/quote]
    That is still up for debate. I have listened to the recent podcasts and could not find where they stated this. It does make sense though, that they would do this. I just don’t see how they explain Ji Yeon before Ben. JMHO.[/quote]

    ****************
    Do you mean you don’t see how Ji Yeon could be born before Ben’s flash forward in Iraq with Sayid? I think it would be close…if she was pregnant with Jin’s baby and got pregnant some time after Sept 2004 the baby would be born some time summer of 2005 (I know there are debates about when she got pregnant and if the baby was premature and all that, but assuming a flexible nine month timeline, the baby would have to be born somewhere between June and August of 2005)…Ben’s FF was in Oct of 2005. It’s close.[/quote]
    ————-
    Comment 477

  648. jaime says:

    [quote comment="216528"][quote comment="216526"]The hieroglyphics on Ben’s door have been analyzed and decoded…is this considered a spoiler?[/quote]
    Im not sure. Do you have a link to where you found it?[/quote]
    ##############################
    I do, here you go

    http://www.docartz.com/lost-easter-eggs/lost-easter-egg-hieroglyphics.php

    If you don’t consider it a spoiler, i would love to discuss.

  649. DocH says:

    I don’t think it is a spoiler.

    It is referenced as an easter-egg, and it reads as a easter-egg.

    Easter eggs are generally things we have seen that MAY be a big clue in future episodes. Ben’s secret door was seen by all. This one article attempts to explain what the symbols on it are. A ‘spoiler’ would be if the person writing the article had said “I was on set and the people there (or writers) had told them – wink, wink, nudge, nudge – this is what it really means”. We have all seen the symbols before – this ‘theory’ simply tries to tie-in what we saw before, and what we saw immediately after. JMO.

  650. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="216512"][quote comment="216445"]
    … the famous whispers theory everyone is talking about? Sorry to be off topic.
    [/quote]
    [quote comment="216499"]
    … As you know, there are whispers that happen sometimes when there is an apparition, sometimes when Smokey appears and sometimes when there is a manifestation from Smokey.
    [/quote]
    I don’t disagree with anything Hammer listed.

    I imagine the Whispers as part of ‘experimentation’. Pretend you are in a sensory deprivation tank – like in ‘Altered States’. You are mildly drugged. You can see alright, but there is nothing to see. Your hearing is poor, as you can not focus on what you are hearing. Your mind is very active and suggestable to input from your subconscience. Dreams seem real. Your thoughts, anxieties, fears, hopes, etc… are all magnified many times over.

    Now pretend there are a group of scientists and observers watching this ‘experiment’, talking about you and how they can manipulate your dream state. But they are not all in one room, they are in separate rooms talking about their portion of the experiment. Some try to influence your hopes (redemption) and give you visions (apparitions) to test your dream state. Others try to influence your fears (Smokey and Co.) to test that portion of your dream state, and your response. All of these pokes and prods into your psyche occur at the same time… to see how you will resolve the issues you are facing.

    (Much of LOST revolves around mental health and associated institutions…)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    OK, so now we have a situation simalar to The Matrix to contemplate. I can see possibilities here. There were rules there (in the Matrix) too, and inforcers. Is Jacob “The Oracle” or “The One”?

  651. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="216519"][quote comment="216518"][quote comment="216516"]
    … I tend to disagree with you on the timing of when the freighter was sent. I beleive the freighter was sent at the end of Season 2, when after the hatch explodes, we see the 2 men in the antarctic call Penny on the phone…
    [/quote]
    Again, just saying with TIME ALL MESSED UP, the end of Season 2 in on-island time may be drastically different than off-island… heck Penny may have just hung-up with the artic guys, when WHOOSH, Charlie gets her on the horn from the Looking Glass. Not saying this is the solution, just saying the concept has some (a modicum of) potential.[/quote]
    —————-
    Agreed. It is a great concept. I really hope, at some point, well before the series ends, we are not constantly debating over timeline issues. I think the time line/travel issues are fun, I just hope the whole basis of the show doesn’t rely on them too much. They can do better than that.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    Actually, I think we have already read too much into the time line/time “travel” issues. I hink there will be less dependance on a lot of tis then we are putting there. Fun to speculate though.

  652. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216532"][quote comment="216528"][quote comment="216526"]The hieroglyphics on Ben’s door have been analyzed and decoded…is this considered a spoiler?[/quote]
    Im not sure. Do you have a link to where you found it?[/quote]
    ##############################
    I do, here you go

    http://www.docartz.com/lost-easter-eggs/lost-easter-egg-hieroglyphics.php

    If you don’t consider it a spoiler, i would love to discuss.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    Thanks, agree it is in no way a spoiler and glad that it helps “confirm” that Ben wasn’t traveling in the room, but did the obvious…summoned Smokey.

  653. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216521"]
    Also in the podcast or that Popular Mechanic article I forget which, D&C state that when we see Harper talking to Juliette and Jack, it really is Harper and not a manifestation. This is a problematic scene for me, because she vanishes into thin air, moreover there are whispers all around that scene (sorry Hammer) and I was hoping that we could cling to that being a consistent sign of apparitions on the island.

    How in the world would they explain Harper vanishing?[/quote]
    Not that this would on it’s own ruin my theory, but can you find this? I only remember them saying that Harper is still alive and on the island. Not that the real Harper is what Jack and Juliette saw.

  654. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216595"]
    ++++++++++++++
    OK, so now we have a situation simalar to The Matrix to contemplate. I can see possibilities here. There were rules there (in the Matrix) too, and inforcers. Is Jacob “The Oracle” or “The One”?[/quote]
    Very interesting thought. Trying to wrap my brain around that one.

  655. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="216651"][quote comment="216595"]
    ++++++++++++++
    OK, so now we have a situation simalar to The Matrix to contemplate. I can see possibilities here. There were rules there (in the Matrix) too, and inforcers. Is Jacob “The Oracle” or “The One”?[/quote]
    Very interesting thought. Trying to wrap my brain around that one.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++++++++
    Lots of good new information and comparisons. Lots of way out there stuff too. Hard to sort it all out. Worst time of year for me. Working on posters, flyers, program, permits and props for the circus. We perform the last two weeks of May and are soo buisy. No time for a LAA meeting so I just need to give up a little more sleep to figure some of this out.

    Beyond the Matrix idea, Star Gate, assended beings is a concept that could apply. I think they assend when they die.

    Just a side thought, For those of you who watch House, Ben vs. House, who would out manipulate and why.

  656. RGS says:

    [quote comment="216647"][quote comment="216521"]
    [/quote]
    Not that this would on it’s own ruin my theory, but can you find this? I only remember them saying that Harper is still alive and on the island. Not that the real Harper is what Jack and Juliette saw.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^
    It is the very last question of the official audio podcast.

    http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Official_Lost_Podcast/April_25%2C_2008

  657. DocH says:

    [quote comment="216653"]
    Just a side thought, For those of you who watch House, Ben vs. House, who would out manipulate and why.
    [/quote]
    Best question all week! House would say something to Ben that would make his eyes bug-out like “I bet I can get Juliet before you”. Then as the eyes start a-bug’n he’d say, “You know – I can cure that”. Ben would say “Are you sure you want to go down that road Greg?”

    Staring contest ensues… Bens’ nose twitches like a rabbit… House pops a pill… then Ben whips out his telescoping baton and swings for Houses’ head. House returns the favor, aiming his cane for Bens’ throat. [Deathblow freeze frame "Kill Bill" style, ala Quentin Tarantino.]
    :-)

  658. Evan says:

    It seems as though all of you are clinging to this time travel idea simply because of the time differential…Aren’t there other sci-fi ways that Ben could end up in the desert? It’s not that I don’t see time travel as a possibility, but I just think that would be too easy of an answer. My proposal: the island is never found easily because it’s not always visible physically becuase it only exists at certain points. The island’s time difference is comparable to the time difference on the moon. The island is a moon, constantly moving about the earth on an orbit, which also explains how DHARMA polar bears end up in the jungle and the desert. Think about it

  659. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="216666"]It seems as though all of you [/quote]

    Can you be more general? Or dont make #659 ( that’s six-hundred and fifty-nine ) rude. Jump in earlier.

  660. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216654"][quote comment="216647"][quote comment="216521"]
    [/quote]
    Not that this would on it’s own ruin my theory, but can you find this? I only remember them saying that Harper is still alive and on the island. Not that the real Harper is what Jack and Juliette saw.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^
    It is the very last question of the official audio podcast.

    http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Official_Lost_Podcast/April_25%2C_2008%5B/quote%5D

    +++++++++++
    Thanks.

  661. Sheppard says:

    [quote comment="216666"]It seems as though all of you are clinging to this time travel idea simply because of the time differential…Aren’t there other sci-fi ways that Ben could end up in the desert? It’s not that I don’t see time travel as a possibility, but I just think that would be too easy of an answer. My proposal: the island is never found easily because it’s not always visible physically becuase it only exists at certain points. The island’s time difference is comparable to the time difference on the moon. The island is a moon, constantly moving about the earth on an orbit, which also explains how DHARMA polar bears end up in the jungle and the desert. Think about it[/quote]

    The island is reachable from the boat via helicopter and the boat is not moving. They can reach it from only one bearing and since the bearing isn’t moving the island is not moving.

  662. buzzebay says:

    The episode will be Ben-centric

  663. DocH says:

    [quote comment="216780"]
    The island is reachable from the boat via helicopter and the boat is not moving.
    They can reach it from only one bearing and since the bearing isn’t moving the island is not moving.
    [/quote]
    The island can still be moving if the boat is not. It can be moving directly toward the boat ~ no change in heading there! The boat was 80 miles, last we heard 40 miles… make sense?

  664. jaime says:

    [quote comment="216645"][quote comment="216532"][quote comment="216528"][quote comment="216526"]The hieroglyphics on Ben’s door have been analyzed and decoded…is this considered a spoiler?[/quote]
    Im not sure. Do you have a link to where you found it?[/quote]
    ##############################
    I do, here you go

    http://www.docartz.com/lost-easter-eggs/lost-easter-egg-hieroglyphics.php

    If you don’t consider it a spoiler, i would love to discuss.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    Thanks, agree it is in no way a spoiler and glad that it helps “confirm” that Ben wasn’t traveling in the room, but did the obvious…summoned Smokey.[/quote]
    #######################
    Thank you DocH and Hammer. I’ve often wondered if easter eggs were up for discussion. Thanks for the clarification.
    pretty cool findings i think. Almost identical images appeared on the timer in the hatch when it counted down to zero. It showed hieroglyphics if i remember correctly. I wonder if we can find an image of the timer at zero and try and decipher what they mean.

  665. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216789"]
    #######################
    Thank you DocH and Hammer. I’ve often wondered if easter eggs were up for discussion. Thanks for the clarification.
    pretty cool findings i think. Almost identical images appeared on the timer in the hatch when it counted down to zero. It showed hieroglyphics if i remember correctly. I wonder if we can find an image of the timer at zero and try and decipher what they mean.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    Here’s one already done:

    http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Hieroglyphs

  666. jaime says:

    [quote comment="216791"][quote comment="216789"]
    #######################
    Thank you DocH and Hammer. I’ve often wondered if easter eggs were up for discussion. Thanks for the clarification.
    pretty cool findings i think. Almost identical images appeared on the timer in the hatch when it counted down to zero. It showed hieroglyphics if i remember correctly. I wonder if we can find an image of the timer at zero and try and decipher what they mean.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    Here’s one already done:

    http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Hieroglyphs/quote
    ########################
    Kick ass…you rock.

  667. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="216666"]It seems as though all of you are clinging to this time travel idea simply because of the time differential…Aren’t there other sci-fi ways that Ben could end up in the desert? It’s not that I don’t see time travel as a possibility, but I just think that would be too easy of an answer. My proposal: the island is never found easily because it’s not always visible physically becuase it only exists at certain points. The island’s time difference is comparable to the time difference on the moon. The island is a moon, constantly moving about the earth on an orbit, which also explains how DHARMA polar bears end up in the jungle and the desert. Think about it[/quote]
    I actually like this idea somewhat. It has some possible ties with other concepts and theories. The ties are loose but will be fun to explore.

  668. Miraks says:

    Finally got the time to read all this- just a week late. Anyway, I have not seenthis idea here yet- tell me what you think.

    When Claire’s house blew up my first thought was “that’s how she died”, immidiately followed by “no way is she dead, she has to get on the helicopter with Aaron per Desmond’s vision”. Which brought me to the theory/ idea that Claire will in fact get on the freighter with Aaron, but will be afflicted by the flight there, like Des was, except she won’t make it. BUT, while she flashes back in her own time-line, she finds out her fathers name (either by asking him when she meets him, or from mom, or aunt..). Anyway, she will let Jack know that she is his half-sister before she dies.

  669. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="216798"]Finally got the time to read all this- just a week late. Anyway, I have not seenthis idea here yet- tell me what you think.

    When Claire’s house blew up my first thought was “that’s how she died”, immidiately followed by “no way is she dead, she has to get on the helicopter with Aaron per Desmond’s vision”. Which brought me to the theory/ idea that Claire will in fact get on the freighter with Aaron, but will be afflicted by the flight there, like Des was, except she won’t make it. BUT, while she flashes back in her own time-line, she finds out her fathers name (either by asking him when she meets him, or from mom, or aunt..). Anyway, she will let Jack know that she is his half-sister before she dies.[/quote]

    Makes sense.

  670. Lins