This Place is Death

jin_s5.jpg

Now that we know Jin is indeed alive, what will we find out this week about how he has experienced the time skipping while floating around in the ocean? Interestingly enough, he must have stayed within the perimeter of the Island following the explosion of the freighter last season, or the conclusion to last week’s episode would not have been possible. Also – this could be the episode where we learn about Rousseau’s past and how she came to be the only one left of her crew – the title of the episode is ominous enough!

ABC’s Official Show Description

Spoiler Alert

“Locke takes on the burden to stop the island’s increasingly violent shifts through time. Meanwhile, Ben hits a roadblock in his attempt to reunite the Oceanic 6 and bring them back to the island.”

We know that going into this episode Locke’s attempt to stop the time shifts is tied to the Orchid. Also, based on Jin’s chance meeting with Rousseau last week, we see that she is already pregnant when arriving at the Island – so that begs the question of whether/when she and Ben previously met. It is difficult to judge if there will be a central character in this episode – if I had to bet, I would say either Locke or Jin, but we only have a few hours until we find out.

This Place is Death Preview

Sneak Peek

Sneak Peek 1 | Sneak Peek 2

About these ads
This entry was posted in Lost. Bookmark the permalink.

638 Responses to This Place is Death

  1. Rob Williams says:

    I love this blog and so when I created a new aggregation/syndication site all about LOST, I included this one. Just wanted you to know. It’ called LOST soup and it’s at http://lost.soup.io if you want to check it out.

    Keep up the great LOST blogging. Love it!

  2. So I wonder where in the world Locke will end up when he dies on the island (if in fact he does actually “die”). How does Ben know where to find him since he himself ended up in a Tunisian desert?

  3. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="313659"]So I wonder where in the world Locke will end up when he dies on the island (if in fact he does actually “die”). How does Ben know where to find him since he himself ended up in a Tunisian desert?[/quote]

    I am not entirely sure that Locke will die ON the island… if he did, how would he get OFF the island?

    Also, I am not sure he HAS to turn the FDW to get off the island. Ben had ways of traveling to and from the “mainland” as evidenced by the passports, money and photo of him.

    Locke may well leave the island by “conventional” methods and find Ben himself. All I know is that 9pm can’t come soon enough!

    : ) P

  4. [quote comment="313662"][quote comment="313659"]So I wonder where in the world Locke will end up when he dies on the island (if in fact he does actually “die”). How does Ben know where to find him since he himself ended up in a Tunisian desert?[/quote]

    I am not entirely sure that Locke will die ON the island… if he did, how would he get OFF the island?

    Also, I am not sure he HAS to turn the FDW to get off the island. Ben had ways of traveling to and from the “mainland” as evidenced by the passports, money and photo of him.

    Locke may well leave the island by “conventional” methods and find Ben himself. All I know is that 9pm can’t come soon enough!

    : ) P[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I agree. It will be very interesting to see how he manages that one. Maybe he will find the Submarine that he blew up and Captain that little bugger right back to LA. Or possibly lasso some sea turtles that he tied together with his back hair…..I cannot wait!

  5. Jason says:

    Is it safe to assume that since Jin is alive, that Micheal could be floating around in the ocean somewhere too?

  6. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="313659"]So I wonder where in the world Locke will end up when he dies on the island (if in fact he does actually “die”). How does Ben know where to find him since he himself ended up in a Tunisian desert?[/quote]
    Didn’t Locke die somewhere in LA as Jack read in the article last season before going to his funeral?

  7. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="313668"]Is it safe to assume that since Jin is alive, that Micheal could be floating around in the ocean somewhere too?[/quote]

    IMO, no. Michael was *IN* the room with the C-4. Jin was up on deck waving at the helicopter. *HE* had time to make a flying leap off the freighter.

    : ) P

  8. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="313669"]Didn’t Locke die somewhere in LA as Jack read in the article last season before going to his funeral?[/quote]

    Locke’s body is in a death-like state, we have seen that. I think the debate is whether or not he is actually DEAD, or perhaps made to look that way in order to get to O6 to agree to return to the island. OR perhaps he is now in a state like Christian Shepherd, where he is dead OFF the island, but undead ON the island.

    : ) P

  9. mylee says:

    did Locke ever touch base with Ben in order to get back the O6?

  10. NikkiV says:

    I am very interested to see how Ben will prove to Sun that Jin is still alive.

    Of course, he may just be tugging at her heart strings in order to get her back to the island, where he will be “undead” but “dead” back in the regular world.

    Sheesh..

    Whatever it may be..I love the taste of this Old Lost! :) Feels like we’re really back in business.

  11. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313671"][quote comment="313668"]Is it safe to assume that since Jin is alive, that Micheal could be floating around in the ocean somewhere too?[/quote]

    IMO, no. Michael was *IN* the room with the C-4. Jin was up on deck waving at the helicopter. *HE* had time to make a flying leap off the freighter.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Agree PJ, you could also make a case that Christian showing up to tell Michael that he ‘can go now’ was D&C’s way of telling us Micheal is dead.

  12. CRW says:

    I don’t think that Locke is dead. My theory is that he was bitten by a Medusa spider and it appears that he is dead. We know the spiders are on the island since Paulo and Nikki were bit and everyone thought they were dead. In the first episode of the year Hugo’s dad (Cheech) was watching the Expose show on TV when Hugo came to his house which reminded me of Paulo and Nikki.

    Your thoughts?

  13. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313678"]I don’t think that Locke is dead. My theory is that he was bitten by a Medusa spider and it appears that he is dead. We know the spiders are on the island since Paulo and Nikki were bit and everyone thought they were dead. In the first episode of the year Hugo’s dad (Cheech) was watching the Expose show on TV when Hugo came to his house which reminded me of Paulo and Nikki.

    Your thoughts?[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    But Locke likley died off the island. Are the medusa spiders local to L.A.? I’m not sure he’s dead like others have stated, but if NOT, then I think the medusa spider was just away for D&C to tell us that some people APPEAR dead when they are not. In other words, if Locke is not actually dead, he may be drugged to appear so, but the spider were not used, they were just a hint.

  14. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="313678"]I don’t think that Locke is dead. My theory is that he was bitten by a Medusa spider and it appears that he is dead. We know the spiders are on the island since Paulo and Nikki were bit and everyone thought they were dead. In the first episode of the year Hugo’s dad (Cheech) was watching the Expose show on TV when Hugo came to his house which reminded me of Paulo and Nikki.
    [/quote]

    I wouldn’t rule it out, but my guess is that Locke has been dosed up with the same tranquilizer that Sayid had – not necessarily by the same people, he may even have done it to himself. Remember that Carmen Reyes thought Sayid wasn’t breathing. Or Locke may have Medusa Spider venom in him, but I think that it was neither accidental, nor from the bite of a spider – but rather through a syringe. Heck, the dart that hit Sayid might even be Medusa Spider venom!

    I agree that Nikki and Paulo’s story is not over. As I have said from the beginning, if it were, D&C wouldn’t keep dropping their breadcrumbs for us. Same with Emma and Zack.

    : ) P

  15. Rita says:

    [quote comment="313673"]did Locke ever touch base with Ben in order to get back the O6?[/quote]
    Not that we have seen yet, but Locke went around the country as Jeremy Bentham trying to get the O6 to go back, so it is reasonable to think he DID hook up with Ben – who would have given him the fake name and helped him out with details like money etc., eventually helping him with the “plan” to “die” in order to draw the O6 out and get them to go back. (Was that really all one sentence!!)
    CAN’T WAIT UNTIL 9:00!!!!!

  16. It still blows my mind that there are basically 3 years on the island that we have not seen and don’t know what happened during. Unless I guess when the 06 finally get back, they will conveniently reappear 3 years in the past…

  17. RGS says:

    [quote comment="313674"]I am very interested to see how Ben will prove to Sun that Jin is still alive.

    Of course, he may just be tugging at her heart strings in order to get her back to the island, where he will be “undead” but “dead” back in the regular world.

    Sheesh..

    Whatever it may be..I love the taste of this Old Lost! :) Feels like we’re really back in business.[/quote]

    Locke may have info that would confirm Jin is alive, and he would have in turn passed that information to Ben.

  18. RGS says:

    [quote comment="313690"]It still blows my mind that there are basically 3 years on the island that we have not seen and don’t know what happened during. Unless I guess when the 06 finally get back, they will conveniently reappear 3 years in the past…[/quote]

    They may try to say that because there’s no rhyme or reason to the time distortion, what would be a few hours on the island in it’s state of flux, would be equivalent to X months in “real world” time. So the whole flashing around could be what was actually taking place in those 3 years.

  19. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="313690"]It still blows my mind that there are basically 3 years on the island that we have not seen and don’t know what happened during. Unless I guess when the 06 finally get back, they will conveniently reappear 3 years in the past…[/quote]

    As I said in the thread for night one (which was episodes 1 and 2), I personally don’t think we are going to SEE three years on the island. I think that Sawyer, Juliet et al (whom I will call the Remaining LOSTies since they are still LOST) are going to skip around in time for a few episodes and then join up with the O6 and whoever else is with them.

    From the Remaining LOSTies POV I don’t think that it will FEEL like three years. From the time the helicopter flew overhead and the freighter exploded, they’ve spent what would probably feel like several days to them, skipping around in time. As far as I know, they haven’t slept, though maybe now with all the nose-bleeding that is going on, they will take a rest now and then. I know I am tired just thinking about it!

    Anyway, I just don’t think that the Remaining LOSTies are going to be skipping around in time for what feels to THEM as three years before the O6 show up.

    JMO,
    : ) P

  20. [quote comment="313695"][quote comment="313690"]It still blows my mind that there are basically 3 years on the island that we have not seen and don’t know what happened during. Unless I guess when the 06 finally get back, they will conveniently reappear 3 years in the past…[/quote]

    As I said in the thread for night one (which was episodes 1 and 2), I personally don’t think we are going to SEE three years on the island. I think that Sawyer, Juliet et al (whom I will call the Remaining LOSTies since they are still LOST) are going to skip around in time for a few episodes and then join up with the O6 and whoever else is with them.

    From the Remaining LOSTies POV I don’t think that it will FEEL like three years. From the time the helicopter flew overhead and the freighter exploded, they’ve spent what would probably feel like several days to them, skipping around in time. As far as I know, they haven’t slept, though maybe now with all the nose-bleeding that is going on, they will take a rest now and then. I know I am tired just thinking about it!

    Anyway, I just don’t think that the Remaining LOSTies are going to be skipping around in time for what feels to THEM as three years before the O6 show up.

    JMO,
    : ) P[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    That definitely makes sense. It will be weird though for Locke to leave the island (assuming he actually dies off the island, which I am now definitely convinced of) in the middle of the time shifts, arrive in LA some time after Kate, Jack and company returned to the US, then do his thing for 3 years as Jeremy Bentham, “DIE”, and then return back to the island just a few days after he left it (on island time). Man, what a way to give yourself a headache!

  21. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="313687"][quote comment="313673"]did Locke ever touch base with Ben in order to get back the O6?[/quote]
    Not that we have seen yet, but Locke went around the country as Jeremy Bentham trying to get the O6 to go back, so it is reasonable to think he DID hook up with Ben – who would have given him the fake name and helped him out with details like money etc., eventually helping him with the “plan” to “die” in order to draw the O6 out and get them to go back. (Was that really all one sentence!!)
    CAN’T WAIT UNTIL 9:00!!!!![/quote]
    __________________

    We also know that Locke (as Jeremy Bentham) went to see Kate (she told Jack) and probably contacted some other O6ers as well. So he had to get off the island alive.
    I agree that he might have hooked up with Ben and is “pretending” to be dead in order to help convince the O6 to go back. This would also explain why Ben knows who is and isn’t alive back on the island.
    The only thing that is making me doubt that Locke is alive is that Richard told him he HAD TO DIE to get the O6 back AND the newspaper article also said that Jeremy Betham commited suicide.

  22. Hammer says:

    Agree with PJ @ the three years for the ‘skippers’ and Locke won’t be in LA for three years being Bentham. He arrives toward the end of the three year deal and ‘dies’ after making his appeals to the O6….I think the clue to this is THAT is what sends Jack into his addiction phase.

    So basically the ‘skippers’ will skip a few more times after Locke leaves and the ‘skippers’ will not experience the same length of time that Locke is gone either.

  23. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313703"]The only thing that is making me doubt that Locke is alive is that Richard told him he HAD TO DIE …[/quote]
    Like many things on LOST, it may have been vaguely stated. He didn’t have time to explain the ‘fake’ part….possibly.

  24. addicted2lost says:

    I agree that Nikki and Paulo’s story is not over. As I have said from the beginning, if it were, D&C wouldn’t keep dropping their breadcrumbs for us. Same with Emma and Zack

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Curious, to what breadcrumbs are you referring? I may have missed something.

  25. [quote comment="313704"]Agree with PJ @ the three years for the ‘skippers’ and Locke won’t be in LA for three years being Bentham. He arrives toward the end of the three year deal and ‘dies’ after making his appeals to the O6….I think the clue to this is THAT is what sends Jack into his addiction phase.

    So basically the ‘skippers’ will skip a few more times after Locke leaves and the ‘skippers’ will not experience the same length of time that Locke is gone either.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I’ll buy into that one.

  26. lost4ever says:

    Hi my name is lost4ever and I am a LOSTaholic. I hope I remember how to do this quote thing.
    [quote comment="313695"]

    Anyway, I just don’t think that the Remaining LOSTies are going to be skipping around in time for what feels to THEM as three years before the O6 show up.
    [/quote]
    How about 70 hours? Hammer, I seem to recall someone saying Locke appeared a month or so before his death (maybe Walt’s grandmother?).

    [quote comment="313703"]
    The only thing that is making me doubt that Locke is alive is that Richard told him he HAD TO DIE to get the O6 back AND the newspaper article also said that Jeremy Betham commited suicide.[/quote]
    I agree Miraks although there have been very good reasoning behind him still being alive. For me, if Locke was alive, it would take away from the fantastic “who is in the coffin” finale from last year. Therefore, I hope he is dead, as Richard told him he had to die.

  27. RGS says:

    [quote comment="313704"]Agree with PJ @ the three years for the ‘skippers’ and Locke won’t be in LA for three years being Bentham. He arrives toward the end of the three year deal and ‘dies’ after making his appeals to the O6….I think the clue to this is THAT is what sends Jack into his addiction phase.

    So basically the ‘skippers’ will skip a few more times after Locke leaves and the ‘skippers’ will not experience the same length of time that Locke is gone either.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I thought Jack went into his addiction phase before he finds out Locke is dead…just from regular island withdrawal.

    Everything happening from this point on off-island is after-the-fact that Locke is dead and their attempts to get back.

  28. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313687"][quote comment="313673"]did Locke ever touch base with Ben in order to get back the O6?[/quote]
    Not that we have seen yet, but Locke went around the country as Jeremy Bentham trying to get the O6 to go back, so it is reasonable to think he DID hook up with Ben – who would have given him the fake name and helped him out with details like money etc., eventually helping him with the “plan” to “die” in order to draw the O6 out and get them to go back. (Was that really all one sentence!!)
    CAN’T WAIT UNTIL 9:00!!!!![/quote]
    Excellent Rita. Locke most likely sought Ben out first, or Widmore. After all, Widmore actually found the island once.

  29. Newbie says:

    [quote comment="313671"][quote comment="313668"]Is it safe to assume that since Jin is alive, that Micheal could be floating around in the ocean somewhere too?[/quote]

    IMO, no. Michael was *IN* the room with the C-4. Jin was up on deck waving at the helicopter. *HE* had time to make a flying leap off the freighter.

    : ) P[/quote]

    ***********

    Also, Christian Shepherd came to Michael right before the freighter blew up and told him something to the effect that he could go now, i.e. the island had finally released him. I am still puzzled about why the island chose to release Michael at that moment and not any other.

  30. Newbie says:

    [quote comment="313675"][quote comment="313671"][quote comment="313668"]Is it safe to assume that since Jin is alive, that Micheal could be floating around in the ocean somewhere too?[/quote]

    IMO, no. Michael was *IN* the room with the C-4. Jin was up on deck waving at the helicopter. *HE* had time to make a flying leap off the freighter.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Agree PJ, you could also make a case that Christian showing up to tell Michael that he ‘can go now’ was D&C’s way of telling us Micheal is dead.[/quote]
    ****
    Oh..Sorry.didn’t realize that Hammer had already mentioned that point. Still confused about the timing of the release though.

  31. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313711"][quote comment="313704"]Agree with PJ @ the three years for the ‘skippers’ and Locke won’t be in LA for three years being Bentham. He arrives toward the end of the three year deal and ‘dies’ after making his appeals to the O6….I think the clue to this is THAT is what sends Jack into his addiction phase.

    So basically the ‘skippers’ will skip a few more times after Locke leaves and the ‘skippers’ will not experience the same length of time that Locke is gone either.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I thought Jack went into his addiction phase before he finds out Locke is dead…just from regular island withdrawal.

    Everything happening from this point on off-island is after-the-fact that Locke is dead and their attempts to get back.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    You may be correct, but I still don’t think Locke will be off island for the 3 years. Only the tail end.

  32. Bobbi says:

    Perhaps Rousseau’s crew will end up with bloody noses or losing ‘time’ like Desmond did. Wasn’t this occurence happening to those who didn’t follow the bearing? So it stands to reason that Rousseau and her crew floated in on a different bearing. Rousseau being pregnant may have protected her somehow.

    I think Ben will convince Sun about Jin being alive because he’ll ask Sayid something. Something that Sayid will suddenly remember because Rousseau will have mentioned meeting Jin when she arrived to island. Much the same way Desmond suddenly remembered Faraday. Sayid is on the docks with Sun and Ben at the end of the episode, so its easily a possibility.

    I think Locke is indeed DEAD. I think it would be lame for poison or spiders to be culprit. However, I think he’s only as ‘dead’ as Christian was after plane crash.

  33. Jaime says:

    [quote comment="313714"][quote comment="313675"][quote comment="313671"][quote comment="313668"]Is it safe to assume that since Jin is alive, that Micheal could be floating around in the ocean somewhere too?[/quote]

    IMO, no. Michael was *IN* the room with the C-4. Jin was up on deck waving at the helicopter. *HE* had time to make a flying leap off the freighter.

    : ) P[/quote]

    ++++++++++
    Agree PJ, you could also make a case that Christian showing up to tell Michael that he ‘can go now’ was D&C’s way of telling us Micheal is dead.[/quote]
    ****
    Oh..Sorry.didn’t realize that Hammer had already mentioned that point. Still confused about the timing of the release though.[/quote]

    *****************************************************
    For redemptive reasons. Michael still “had work to do” up until that point.

  34. Jaime says:

    I’m hoping they cover a bit more tonight on Rousseau and her crew. There are more than a few things that are still a mystery.

    What happened to Brennan? He was still alive the last Danielle knew. “Brennan has taken the keys” “He;s outside right now”

    Where did Danielle get all her military style clothing and weaponry? Did she steal them from Dharma or was she possible part of them?

    Could it be possible that Dharma knew of her and was using her as an experiment on isolation?

  35. Jaime says:

    [quote comment="313721"]I’m hoping they cover a bit more tonight on Rousseau and her crew. There are more than a few things that are still a mystery.

    What happened to Brennan? He was still alive the last Danielle knew. “Brennan has taken the keys” “He;s outside right now”

    Where did Danielle get all her military style clothing and weaponry? Did she steal them from Dharma or was she possible part of them?

    Could it be possible that Dharma knew of her and was using her as an experiment on isolation?[/quote]

    **************************************
    Of course there are the more obvious questions i could be asking but the above questions were minor questions i thought i could get answers to from your help

  36. Jen says:

    I thought Jack started going downhill after being told that Claire was his sister.

    Locke could have went to Widmore because he did briefly met him when they were in that camp in the 1950’s.

    With them seeing the light from the hatch (we all know what’s happening there) & Saywer seeing Kate deliver Aaron I thought it was getting closer to ‘present’ times. But then they showed Jin with a young pregnant Rousseau & the crew she crashed with so I am as confused as ever with this time travel.

  37. ESB says:

    [quote comment="313711"][quote comment="313704"]Agree with PJ @ the three years for the ‘skippers’ and Locke won’t be in LA for three years being Bentham. He arrives toward the end of the three year deal and ‘dies’ after making his appeals to the O6….I think the clue to this is THAT is what sends Jack into his addiction phase.

    So basically the ‘skippers’ will skip a few more times after Locke leaves and the ‘skippers’ will not experience the same length of time that Locke is gone either.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I thought Jack went into his addiction phase before he finds out Locke is dead…just from regular island withdrawal.

    Everything happening from this point on off-island is after-the-fact that Locke is dead and their attempts to get back.[/quote]

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I was under the impression that Jack started down the addiction path when he started seeing his dead father around…he asks his colleague for a prescription one night when he sees dear old dad in the waiting room of the hospital…wihs i could remember the episode, but i’m sure someone here can refresh my memory…;)

  38. ESB says:

    [quote comment="313725"]I thought Jack started going downhill after being told that Claire was his sister.
    [/quote]

    this could also be when it started…i cannot recall which came first, but my guess would be it was the combination of the two, plus the fact that Kate starts doing stuff for Sawyer…

  39. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="313706"]Curious, to what breadcrumbs are you referring? I may have missed something.[/quote]

    Regarding Nikki and Paulo, there have been several times when “Expose” (the tv show that Nikki was on) has been on television. In S4E7, (“Ji Yeon”), a rerun of Expose is playing on the television in the background. In S5E2, Hurley’s father is watching Expose when he hears Hurley knocking.

    If Nikki and Paulo’s storyline was really just one that fizzled and failed, why do D&C keep bringing it up?

    Regarding Emma and Zack, several times last season, they were mentioned. There was a shot of a swing set, empty and Sawyer mentioned it. Juliet asked Ben in a flashback about them. If we were not supposed to remember the other kids that were on that plane crash, I don’t think D&C would have characters mention them and essentially remind us they existed.

    HTH,
    : ) P

  40. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313728"][quote comment="313725"]I thought Jack started going downhill after being told that Claire was his sister.
    [/quote]

    this could also be when it started…i cannot recall which came first, but my guess would be it was the combination of the two, plus the fact that Kate starts doing stuff for Sawyer…[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Yep, all good points. My point may have been off a bit, but I was trying to emphasize the fact that Locke will not have been recruiting the O6 the whole three years because he was busy skipping for awhile.

  41. duke says:

    I believe that off island is three years into the future but on island it only seems like several days. When O6 return in there minds they have been gone for 3 years but Sawyer, Juliet, et al. would only think of them being gone a week or so. I also believe that they will return to the island sometime in it’s past, possibly when Ben was young and his father worked for Dharma. Also that Rousou never had a memory of Jin until we saw it happen, meaning that originally she did not meet him but because of HIS travels through time she found him in the ocean the 2nd time.

  42. The Wrz says:

    [quote comment="313725"]I thought Jack started going downhill after being told that Claire was his sister.

    Locke could have went to Widmore because he did briefly met him when they were in that camp in the 1950’s.

    With them seeing the light from the hatch (we all know what’s happening there) & Saywer seeing Kate deliver Aaron I thought it was getting closer to ‘present’ times. But then they showed Jin with a young pregnant Rousseau & the crew she crashed with so I am as confused as ever with this time travel.[/quote]
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

    They skipped before we saw Jin. The hatch light and Aaron’s birth were at the same time and then flash. New time period. The flashes are random. They just happen to be flipping to times that will hopefully answer some questions for us and then create a whole new set…only 2 1/2 hours to go

  43. Lost Chicka says:

    I can’t WAIT to find out more about Danielle. I think we would learn a lot about The Others and the island from her.

    So do you think that the memory of the people who see the Losties remember them, or is it only happening on the Losties timeline? Alpert can rememeber them traveling. Is that because he is special, or can everyone?

  44. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313740"]I can’t WAIT to find out more about Danielle. I think we would learn a lot about The Others and the island from her.

    So do you think that the memory of the people who see the Losties remember them, or is it only happening on the Losties timeline? Alpert can rememeber them traveling. Is that because he is special, or can everyone?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    I think they ALL can remember, but only now that is happened. They can not have remembered it in the episodes from previous seasons because the traveling had not happened yet…..yes I am repeating….yes I am repeating….:)

  45. gmta leah says:

    well come on im waiting ………

  46. gmta leah says:

    im waiting for my episode spoilers….???

  47. gmta leah says:

    Am i the only person from england on here…..?

  48. gmta leah says:

    hello ?Is anyone there… im off to bed then.

  49. duke says:

    Hammer, I have also been saying the same things (in regards to the past remembering). That they could not have possibly remembered the first time around because he HAD NOT happened yet. Look forward to your posts on tonights episode.

  50. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313748"]Hammer, I have also been saying the same things (in regards to the past remembering). That they could not have possibly remembered the first time around because he HAD NOT happened yet. Look forward to your posts on tonights episode.[/quote]
    Coolio duke, thanks.

  51. Tasha says:

    I am still hoping Danielle and them run into Sawyer’s group and then we will know that this DID happen before. I am probably wrong though. 13 more minutes on my end! Yay!!!

    Oh and about time on and off island. When Ben left the island he appeared in the desert 9 months( something like that) later so I think that only a couple of days on island will be 3 years off. IMO.

  52. lost4ever says:

    That french scene with no subtitles drives me crazy. I wonder if Juliet had any half brothers she doesn’t know about ( Sawyer ? )

  53. Lost Chicka says:

    …4 minutes…

  54. Hammer says:

    Looks like no TD for the French folks, but I don’t remember anyone thinking Smokey made them ‘sick’.

  55. Rita says:

    [quote comment="313755"]Looks like no TD for the French folks, but I don’t remember anyone thinking Smokey made them ‘sick’.[/quote]
    No nose bleeds either.

  56. Rita says:

    [quote comment="313756"][quote comment="313755"]Looks like no TD for the French folks, but I don’t remember anyone thinking Smokey made them ‘sick’.[/quote]
    No nose bleeds either.[/quote]
    I wonder what happened in that hole?

  57. Hammer says:

    The name on a boat in the background is “Illusion”.

  58. Hammer says:

    The skipping is getting more frequent and more violent.

  59. Tasha says:

    There goes the nose bleeds!

    You speak Korean? That was funny.

    Man WHAT DID SHE SAY TO JIN????

  60. Hammer says:

    Well, it looks like neither length of time on the island nor constants are an issue since Sawyer has the nose bleed.

  61. lost4ever says:

    Here come the Dharma Days

  62. Rita says:

    OK, I’ll say it…. Is Charlotte ANNIE????

  63. lost4ever says:

    Was the temple the same as the orchid? I missed that.

  64. michael says:

    WHo else will dan meet when he meets young charlote

  65. Tasha says:

    So are the oceanic 6 supposed to go back or not go back?????? Whoa this is way too much to take in…..even with the 30 minutes worth of commercials!!!

  66. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313763"I]OK, I’ll say it…. Is Charlotte ANNIE????[/quote]
    I don’t think she’s old enough, but it seems possible.

  67. Lost Chicka says:

    So the timetravelers can’t remember, but the people who met them can.

  68. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313767"][quote comment="313763"I]OK, I’ll say it…. Is Charlotte ANNIE????[/quote]
    I don’t think she’s old enough, but it seems possible.[/quote]

    I would say, she would have been Annie’s daughter. I really didn’t see any of this coming:(

  69. Hammer says:

    Okay, I see more course correction here. Dan told young Charlotte to never come back or you’ll die. She spent her whole life coming back so she could die on the island. She was ‘supposed’ to die in the purge. So that’s how he’s learned that you ‘can’ change the past/future, but it won’t matter because it will get fixed.

  70. Hammer says:

    Hello whisperer (Christian).

  71. michael says:

    Locke keeps getting screwd

  72. Hammer says:

    So Ben did it wrong and left the wheel loose?

  73. michael says:

    Ben killed John Locke

  74. michael says:

    Look on bens face when Desmond said he there for fariday mother was great

  75. Lost Chicka says:

    [quote comment="313775"]Ben killed John Locke[/quote]

    when did listening to him get you anywhere worth a damn? haha good line

  76. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313770"]Okay, I see more course correction here. Dan told young Charlotte to never come back or you’ll die. She spent her whole life coming back so she could die on the island. She was ‘supposed’ to die in the purge. So that’s how he’s learned that you ‘can’ change the past/future, but it won’t matter because it will get fixed.[/quote]

    Or MAYBE it was future Dan warning her!

  77. Rita says:

    [quote comment="313774"]So Ben did it wrong and left the wheel loose?[/quote]
    I wonder if it will turn out that John did it wrong too – Christian told him to push the wheel, and he pulled it. Small detail, but he seems to get a lot of things just a little wrong.

  78. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313774"]So Ben did it wrong and left the wheel loose?[/quote]
    [quote comment="313774"]So Ben did it wrong and left the wheel loose?[/quote]
    CS said Locke was supposed to move the wheel. I think he meant originally.

  79. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313774"]So Ben did it wrong and left the wheel loose?[/quote]

    That’s what it looked like. It was off axis or something. But was Ben not supposed to move it? Did that mess anything up?

  80. Hammer says:

    Where I’m confused is that it seemed that Christian was saying Ben is NOT on Locke’s side, but then again, it still seems like Christian was getting Locke to do what Ben wants him to do. WTF?

  81. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313780"][quote comment="313774"]So Ben did it wrong and left the wheel loose?[/quote]
    I wonder if it will turn out that John did it wrong too – Christian told him to push the wheel, and he pulled it. Small detail, but he seems to get a lot of things just a little wrong.[/quote]
    +++++++
    Maybe, but Christian supervised and talked to him just as he was ‘leaving’. I think he did it correct and the Losties will stop skipping….for awhile.

  82. Rita says:

    [quote comment="313783"]Where I’m confused is that it seemed that Christian was saying Ben is NOT on Locke’s side, but then again, it still seems like Christian was getting Locke to do what Ben wants him to do. WTF?[/quote]
    There always has been a great deal of manipulation going on. It seems though that if they are taking orders from Jacob, they should be listening to Jacob then, and not each other for orders. Listening to Ben instead just got him in trouble.

  83. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313783"]Where I’m confused is that it seemed that Christian was saying Ben is NOT on Locke’s side, but then again, it still seems like Christian was getting Locke to do what Ben wants him to do. WTF?[/quote]

    SO let me get this strait….Ben wasn’t supposed to turn the wheel in the first place, Locke was, RIGHT? Soooo how would that have changed anything?

  84. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="313779"][quote comment="313770"]Okay, I see more course correction here. Dan told young Charlotte to never come back or you’ll die. She spent her whole life coming back so she could die on the island. She was ‘supposed’ to die in the purge. So that’s how he’s learned that you ‘can’ change the past/future, but it won’t matter because it will get fixed.[/quote]

    Or MAYBE it was future Dan warning her![/quote]

    * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    I think that is very likely! We saw Dan back in the 70’s, he was probably TRYING to change the future by telling young Charlotte not to go to the island!

    : ) P

  85. Bobola says:

    [quote comment="313668"]Is it safe to assume that since Jin is alive, that Micheal could be floating around in the ocean somewhere too?[/quote]
    —–
    God, NO! Let’s hope not. I’m sure there are enough sharks swimming around the island already.
    Plus, I doubt he’s a good a swimmer as Jin…and Jin barely made it….and Michael was below decks anyway. Impossible. Besides, there’s already too many dead people coming back to life; if we are going to get more resurrections let it be some interesting characters like Patchy. Note to Charlie; Please STAY dead.

  86. Tasha says:

    Ok….so, Danielle’s people had gone nuts. Her man tried to shoot her and the gun didn’t go off, so she wasn’t meant to die yet. I don’t remember anyone getting that crazy when they were sick. What did the monster do to them? That seemed new to me. Reminded me of when Eko saw his brother or something. I just don’t remember people acting possessed. Was that Smokey’s home down there? Did someone release him to the group?

  87. Msmoliss says:

    When Christian was talking to John Locke, he said “you came to my cabin” so is that to say that Christian is Jacob?

    Sounded like it to me…

  88. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313791"]When Christian was talking to John Locke, he said “you came to my cabin” so is that to say that Christian is Jacob?

    Sounded like it to me…[/quote]

    Yeah…sounded like he said, “You came to see ME.” This is why I am so confused. Is he Jacob? Is Dan Jacob? I mean how does Dan’s mom know so much anyway?

  89. Hammer says:

    Okay Tasha, when Smokey pulled the Yemi trick, it was actually Smokey. But the French folks were still human as she was able to kill them. So I’m guessing that whatever happened in the Temple was different than anything we’ve seen before.

    Side note, now we know how Danielle knew that Smokey was a security system…her new and improved possessed hubby was ‘educated’ while in the hole and told her.

  90. PJSander says:

    Well I guess Locke DID have to turn the FDW to move and get off the island. This was not a typical LOST episode in the way the story was told, but since we learned a lot, I am reconciling that. I loved the scene when Sawyer and Jin first saw each other!

    Favorite line:

    He’s Korean, I’m from Encino.

    LOL.

    : ) P

  91. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313793"]Okay Tasha, when Smokey pulled the Yemi trick, it was actually Smokey. But the French folks were still human as she was able to kill them. So I’m guessing that whatever happened in the Temple was different than anything we’ve seen before.

    Side note, now we know how Danielle knew that Smokey was a security system…her new and improved possessed hubby was ‘educated’ while in the hole and told her.[/quote]
    So it wasn’t smokey that made them sick?

  92. Laura says:

    Okay. Seems to me that we have a BOTH/AND situation here:

    Yes, Ben almost certainly has ulterior motives for getting them all back on the island

    AND It’s likely that they *must* indeed all come back to the island in order to stop the time travel shifts.

    In other words, it’s gonna be bad, but they’ve got to do it anyway. Isn’t that just the way it is? :)

  93. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="313795"]So it wasn’t smokey that made them sick?[/quote]

    It might have been, or it might have been what they saw or encountered while they were under the temple.

    : ) P

  94. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313794"]Well I guess Locke DID have to turn the FDW to move and get off the island. This was not a typical LOST episode in the way the story was told, but since we learned a lot, I am reconciling that. I loved the scene when Sawyer and Jin first saw each other!

    Favorite line:

    He’s Korean, I’m from Encino.

    LOL.

    : ) P[/quote]
    That was good PJ. I liked the “kling-on” reference by Charlotte followed quickly by Daniel with “Imperial”.

  95. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313792"][quote comment="313791"]When Christian was talking to John Locke, he said “you came to my cabin” so is that to say that Christian is Jacob?

    Sounded like it to me…[/quote]

    Yeah…sounded like he said, “You came to see ME.” This is why I am so confused. Is he Jacob? Is Dan Jacob? I mean how does Dan’s mom know so much anyway?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Well unless Jacob is a lier, Christian told Locke that he wasn’t Jacob in the cabin. So I’m still thinking that Christian is part of the Canton Rainier club and Locke will be one too!!

  96. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313791"]When Christian was talking to John Locke, he said “you came to my cabin” so is that to say that Christian is Jacob?

    Sounded like it to me…[/quote]

    Yeah…sounded like he said, “You came to see ME.” This is why I am so confused. Is he Jacob? Is Dan Jacob? I mean how does Dan’s mom know so much anyway?[quote comment="313793"]Okay Tasha, when Smokey pulled the Yemi trick, it was actually Smokey. But the French folks were still human as she was able to kill them. So I’m guessing that whatever happened in the Temple was different than anything we’ve seen before.

    Side note, now we know how Danielle knew that Smokey was a security system…her new and improved possessed hubby was ‘educated’ while in the hole and told her.[/quote]

    [quote comment="313795"][quote comment="313793"]Okay Tasha, when Smokey pulled the Yemi trick, it was actually Smokey. But the French folks were still human as she was able to kill them. So I’m guessing that whatever happened in the Temple was different than anything we’ve seen before.

    Side note, now we know how Danielle knew that Smokey was a security system…her new and improved possessed hubby was ‘educated’ while in the hole and told her.[/quote]
    So it wasn’t smokey that made them sick?[/quote]

    +++++++

    So did he really act possessed or was it just me? What the heck is smokey guarding? I thought that was the orchid station at first but not so sure……

  97. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313796"]
    AND It’s likely that they *must* indeed all come back to the island in order to stop the time travel shifts.
    [/quote]
    I am not sure but I think Locke stopped the time travel shifts by turning the wheel, at least I hope so. Yes, it is good that they can answer some of the questions using this story-telling method, but it is growing tiresome, JMO. UNLESS there is a reason for the time they are traveling to besides answering the questions from the first 4 seasons. Something deeper.

  98. Tasha says:

    Sorry about comment 97…I have no idea what I did.
    I was quoting down starting at lost4ever.

  99. cowpoke says:

    what is going on!!??? was anyone else sad that Charlotte died??

  100. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313796"]Okay. Seems to me that we have a BOTH/AND situation here:

    Yes, Ben almost certainly has ulterior motives for getting them all back on the island

    AND It’s likely that they *must* indeed all come back to the island in order to stop the time travel shifts.

    In other words, it’s gonna be bad, but they’ve got to do it anyway. Isn’t that just the way it is? :)[/quote]
    +++++++++++=
    For now Laura, I’m gonna stick with Locke ‘fixed’ the wheel and they won’t be skipping around randomly anymore. I no longer think that coming back to the island stops the skipping. They have to come back because it’s a course correction.

  101. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313803"]what is going on!!??? was anyone else sad that Charlotte died??[/quote]
    I was as sad at Charlotte’s death as I was Charlie’s. Sorry PJ.

  102. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="313803"]what is going on!!??? was anyone else sad that Charlotte died??[/quote]

    I have been expecting Charlotte not to make it since the first nosebleed. Plus, she’s never been a sympathetic character which, in my opinion, made her more expendable. I would have liked to have seen her character developed a bit more, but no, I am not sad.

    : ) P

  103. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313802"]Sorry about comment 97…I have no idea what I did.
    I was quoting down starting at lost4ever.[/quote]
    I posted in comment 64 Tasha, I didn’t catch it but I thought the temple looked an awful lot like the orchid. Was smokey built by Dharma to protect the wheel? Does the wheel make you crazy?

  104. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313801"][quote comment="313796"]
    AND It’s likely that they *must* indeed all come back to the island in order to stop the time travel shifts.
    [/quote]
    I am not sure but I think Locke stopped the time travel shifts by turning the wheel, at least I hope so. Yes, it is good that they can answer some of the questions using this story-telling method, but it is growing tiresome, JMO. UNLESS there is a reason for the time they are traveling to besides answering the questions from the first 4 seasons. Something deeper.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    I heard somewhere before that the wheel is used to ‘hide’ the island…like a security system. The story telling method is a ‘side effect’ and I want to believe that the skipping will stop for now, giving us a break from that method. But I think that they will be ‘stuck’ in a past time in order to give us more answers.

  105. LostieCreeped out says:

    Does Daniel’s mother freak anyone else out? She totally freaks me out…she reminds me of some dark magic, satan worshipper..

  106. cowpoke says:

    i do agree that they should have developed charlotte a bit more, esp when she was in egypt and found the dharma artifact (i think that was left behind by Ben) right?! was anyone else surprised at Ben’s outburst in the van?!

  107. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313808"] But I think that they will be ‘stuck’ in a past time in order to give us more answers.[/quote]
    Dharma Days

  108. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313807"][quote comment="313802"]Sorry about comment 97…I have no idea what I did.
    I was quoting down starting at lost4ever.[/quote]
    I posted in comment 64 Tasha, I didn’t catch it but I thought the temple looked an awful lot like the orchid. Was smokey built by Dharma to protect the wheel? Does the wheel make you crazy?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    I didn’t get that at all. The temple looked like the place where Ben ‘unleashed’ Smokey on Keamy’s group. I think Smokey is ancient, and DHARMA didn’t make him, but needed to build a sonic fence to keep him away. I also don’t think the wheel makes you crazy per Ben and Locke using it.

  109. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313809"]Does Daniel’s mother freak anyone else out? She totally freaks me out…she reminds me of some dark magic, satan worshipper..[/quote]
    Just like Ellie from the 1954 storyline.

  110. Tasha says:

    Is anyone wondering who Charlotte’s dad is? Why didn’t he go with her mom and her? I thught she was gonna say….she remembered who her dad was…and it was Ben! But no. No such luck!

  111. Tasha says:

    Is anyone wondering who Charlotte’s dad is? Why didn’t he go with her mom and her? I thought she was gonna say….she remembered who her dad was…and it was Ben! But no. No such luck!

    Oh yeah, and we know why Danielle didn’t get sick.

  112. cowpoke says:

    i don’t think we have seen the last of charlotte, nor have we seen the last of her story….i think there is so much missing there… and they never said who those people were in the boats/canoes……

  113. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313811"][quote comment="313808"] But I think that they will be ‘stuck’ in a past time in order to give us more answers.[/quote]
    Dharma Days[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    I think yer right.

  114. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313812"]
    I didn’t get that at all. The temple looked like the place where Ben ‘unleashed’ Smokey on Keamy’s group. I think Smokey is ancient, and DHARMA didn’t make him, but needed to build a sonic fence to keep him away. I also don’t think the wheel makes you crazy per Ben and Locke using it.[/quote]
    You maybe right, but at a quick glance, the temple in 1988 looked very similar to the same place our time-traveling LOSTies arrived to, the orchid.

  115. LINS says:

    yeah, i’ll go ahead and say it…charlotte is ben and annie’s daughter…

  116. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313814"]Is anyone wondering who Charlotte’s dad is? Why didn’t he go with her mom and her? I thught she was gonna say….she remembered who her dad was…and it was Ben! But no. No such luck![/quote]

    I don’t think Ben is old ebough to be Charlotte’s dad.

    Did Charlotte say she was born on the island?

  117. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313819"]yeah, i’ll go ahead and say it…charlotte is ben and annie’s daughter…[/quote]

    Thank you. But seriously, wouldn’t she remember that? I swear when she said “This place is death,” her eyes could have been Ben’s!

  118. Amber says:

    So how does dan know charlotte in the first place? I mean he went back in time to tell her not to come back to the island was he on the island when he was younger to?

  119. LostieCreeped out says:

    [quote comment="313813"][quote comment="313809"]Does Daniel’s mother freak anyone else out? She totally freaks me out…she reminds me of some dark magic, satan worshipper..[/quote]
    Just like Ellie from the 1954 storyline.[/quote]

    Who was Ellie..is that when Locke was born, 1954? That storyline?

  120. Amber says:

    I think it was said by someone before that if you turn the wheel you cant come back to the island, so does that mean ben cant come back or that he couldnt come back alive

  121. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313820"][quote comment="313814"]Is anyone wondering who Charlotte’s dad is? Why didn’t he go with her mom and her? I thught she was gonna say….she remembered who her dad was…and it was Ben! But no. No such luck![/quote]

    I don’t think Ben is old ebough to be Charlotte’s dad.

    Did Charlotte say she was born on the island?[/quote]

    I did the calculations a couple of weeks ago, and Ben could have had her in his late teen years. But then why steal Alex at about the same time.

  122. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313819"]yeah, i’ll go ahead and say it…charlotte is ben and annie’s daughter…[/quote]
    Ah ha!

  123. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313823"]
    Who was Ellie..is that when Locke was born, 1954? That storyline?[/quote]
    In the episode “Jughead”, S5E3, aired 2 weeks ago, she was the one who took Daniel to the bomb, holding him at gunpoint.:)

  124. Tasha says:

    Here is a BIG question…..
    How come BEN has a whole different story for Charlotte? Wouldn’t he have known she was on the island and grew up there? Dharma initiative wasn’t THAT big! I am so confused.

  125. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="313824"]I think it was said by someone before that if you turn the wheel you cant come back to the island, so does that mean ben cant come back or that he couldnt come back alive[/quote]

    I am fairly sure it was BEN who said that, and well, I believe we can’t really TRUST Ben to tell the truth, now can we?

    : ) P

  126. Amber says:

    Ok so this is why im a little confused with the jacob/christian thing. i mean we seen him live his life off the island as jacks dad and being a doctor, so are we saying that he was there before and had to die to go back to the island, or was he never there and just came back to life when the plane crashed. that sounds kind of confusing my question is did christian have anything to do with the island before the crash any answers

  127. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313826"][quote comment="313819"]yeah, i’ll go ahead and say it…charlotte is ben and annie’s daughter…[/quote]
    Ah ha![/quote]
    +++++++++++
    Okay wait, when Charlotte was babbling from her past I think I heard her say “Why can’t Annie go with us?” That would confirm her story that she left the island as a child and wanted Annie to go with her. So how does this add up?

  128. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313825"]

    I did the calculations a couple of weeks ago, and Ben could have had her in his late teen years. But then why steal Alex at about the same time.[/quote]
    Fair enough, I assumed Charlotte was closer to 30 than early 20’s with those credentials. Lostpedia has her being born in 1979, and Ben being born in the early 60’s.
    Maybe Ben stole Alex to replace Charlotte leaving the island.

  129. Amber says:

    and how come christian wouldnt help locke up? that was kind of mean. and he sure wasnt going to turn that wheel now was he

  130. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313834"]and how come christian wouldnt help locke up? that wi kind of mean. and he sure wasnt going to turn that wheel now was he[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Free will….gotta do it himself.

  131. Hammer says:

    A push from DocH got me to relisten to Char’s babbling:

    She mentioned chocolate before dinner…anyone remember Apollo bars?

    I know more about ancient culture than ???? himself.

    Turn it up…I love…?????

    Anyone pick up the missing words?

  132. Amber says:

    ok another question if danielle was alive now would the memory of jin pop into hear head when it happened? or would time travelin jin just remember meeting her

  133. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313832"]
    Okay wait, when Charlotte was babbling from her past I think I heard her say “Why can’t Annie go with us?” That would confirm her story that she left the island as a child and wanted Annie to go with her. So how does this add up?[/quote]
    Nice cathc Hammer. I think that would rule out Annie being her mom. How about Charlotte Goodspeed?

  134. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="313836"]A push from DocH got me to relisten to Char’s babbling:

    She mentioned chocolate before dinner…anyone remember Apollo bars?

    I know more about ancient culture than ???? himself.

    Turn it up…I love…?????

    Anyone pick up the missing words?[/quote]

    I think Charlotte said she knew about Cartha than Hannibal himself.

    : ) P

  135. PJSander says:

    Sorry that should be Carthage.

    : ) P

  136. PJSander says:

    Okay, now here is something I didn’t know…the ancient city of Carthage is now in… you guess it, Tunisia!

    Curiouser and curiouser.

    : ) P

  137. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313838"][quote comment="313832"]
    Okay wait, when Charlotte was babbling from her past I think I heard her say “Why can’t Annie go with us?” That would confirm her story that she left the island as a child and wanted Annie to go with her. So how does this add up?[/quote]
    Nice cathc Hammer. I think that would rule out Annie being her mom. How about Charlotte Goodspeed?[/quote]

    Did she say Annie or DADDY? I swore she said daddy:( Just want to make sure….

  138. emit says:

    [quote comment="313839"][quote comment="313836"]A push from DocH got me to relisten to Char’s babbling:

    She mentioned chocolate before dinner…anyone remember Apollo bars?

    I know more about ancient culture than ???? himself.

    Turn it up…I love…?????

    Anyone pick up the missing words?[/quote]

    I think Charlotte said she knew about Cartha than Hannibal himself.

    : ) P[/quote]
    **********************

    and jeronimo jackson is who she loved

  139. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313837"]ok another question if danielle was alive now would the memory of jin pop into hear head when it happened? or would time travelin jin just remember meeting her[/quote]I am going to have to watch the first time Rousseaou meets Jin in the first season or 2.
    Does she remember him? Good question, she was isolated for 16 years though. He would not have remembered her because in those episodes because it hadn’t happened to him yet.

  140. Trixanna says:

    Great episode! It was nice to see Ji, Sun seemed to soften up after hearing Jin was alive.

    The question now is whether or not Charlotte will stay dead. There is still a lot more of her story to be told. This episode just brought out more questions about her. WHO IS SHE???

    Creepy scene when Smokey pulled Montand (is that his name?) down the hole and his arm was yanked off!!!

  141. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313840"]Sorry that should be Carthage.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Okay got it, she said ancient Carthage…I heard at first ancient culture. LOL.

  142. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313842"][quote comment="313838"][quote comment="313832"]
    Okay wait, when Charlotte was babbling from her past I think I heard her say “Why can’t Annie go with us?” That would confirm her story that she left the island as a child and wanted Annie to go with her. So how does this add up?[/quote]
    Nice cathc Hammer. I think that would rule out Annie being her mom. How about Charlotte Goodspeed?[/quote]

    Did she say Annie or DADDY? I swore she said daddy:( Just want to make sure….[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    Your correct, it’s daddy…blew up that theory!

  143. Lost Chicka says:

    Tasha, if you would remember back to Season 1, when Sayid first meets Danielle, he follows her out into the jungle with a gun. Danielle is going to shoot him, so he pulls the trigger first, only his gun is unloaded. She tells him that she did the same thing to Robert. So it’s not that it wasn’t her time when Robert pulled the trigger, it’s that his gun was unloaded.
    Oh, and my guess is Charlotte’s dad will be Captain Guyliner. This is probably totally wrong and just my wishful thinking but it would be a nice twist in there.

    [quote comment="313809"]Does Daniel’s mother freak anyone else out? She totally freaks me out…she reminds me of some dark magic, satan worshipper..[/quote]

    Haha. That has to be the best, funniest and truest comment on here.

  144. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313843"][quote comment="313839"][quote comment="313836"]A push from DocH got me to relisten to Char’s babbling:

    She mentioned chocolate before dinner…anyone remember Apollo bars?

    I know more about ancient culture than ???? himself.

    Turn it up…I love…?????

    Anyone pick up the missing words?[/quote]

    I think Charlotte said she knew about Cartha than Hannibal himself.

    : ) P[/quote]
    **********************

    and jeronimo jackson is who she loved[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Thanks, got it…I have a hard time with the accents when they whisper. LOL

  145. Lost Chicka says:

    Is Sun going back to the island WITHOUT Ji? I doubt they’ll be making a pit stop on their way back to the island to pick her up.

    ….Oh, and Libby says Hi. (Sorry, couldn’t resist)

  146. Tasha says:

    Can you imagine what he would do if he found out I married an American?” and “I can’t eat chocolate before dinner” is also what I heard.

  147. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313848"]
    Your correct, it’s daddy…blew up that theory![/quote]
    LOL! I was misinformed.:) But it really didn’t blow up the theory, although now I am definitely liking the Ben being Charlotte’s father over her being a Goodspeed. All the more reason for him to steal Alex.

  148. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313851"]Is Sun going back to the island WITHOUT Ji? I doubt they’ll be making a pit stop on their way back to the island to pick her up.

    ….Oh, and Libby says Hi. (Sorry, couldn’t resist)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    I think that Hawking said they would ‘get started’. There must be a process and they still ALL have to go back. Kate, Hugo, Aaron, Ji will all get collected somehow.

  149. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313849"]Tasha, if you would remember back to Season 1, when Sayid first meets Danielle, he follows her out into the jungle with a gun. Danielle is going to shoot him, so he pulls the trigger first, only his gun is unloaded. She tells him that she did the same thing to Robert. So it’s not that it wasn’t her time when Robert pulled the trigger, it’s that his gun was unloaded.

    [/quote]

    I CANNOT believe he was going to shoot her and the baby! PSYCHO!!!!

  150. Newbie says:

    I’m confused about Faraday telling Charlotte in the past that she should never come back to the island. Why doesn’t he remember going back in time and telling Charlotte, or does he and he’s just not telling her? Does this mean that this isn’t the first time he’s been time-traveling? I don’t know how to apply the encyclopedia analogy to this one? I think that the plane crash and the Losties landing on the island is course correcting something that went off-course a lot earlier.

    Also, I dont know if this has been discussed before but I think this episode reveals why Locke had to die.He had to die so that Sun would come to the island. If Locke were alive and Sun were to find him then he would have told her that Jin in dead and then she would have no reason to come to the island.

  151. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313852"] “I can’t eat chocolate before dinner” is also what I heard.[/quote]
    I brought this up in post 132, here’s more, look at the date….

    From lostpedia:
    The Apollo Bar is one of the many foods that were first found in the Pantry within the Swan station by Kate in “Adrift”. What is unusual about this candy is that it is the only food item that is not branded with the DHARMA Initiative logo in some way (although the boxes have the Swan logo on them). It also is the only DHARMA related food item without a generic name (Dharma Ranch Dressing, Dharma Maccaroni, Dharmallars, etc). Apollo Bars are advertised as being “FULL O’ NUTS” and the bar that Kate picked up had a “Consume By” date of October 23, 2004.

    During the Lost Experience, the bar was specifically manufactured, advertised and distributed amongst Lost fans worldwide, tying into the overall arc of the game. A detailed history about the company and its founder was also provided (see Apollo Candy Company).

  152. Newbie says:

    [quote comment="313809"]Does Daniel’s mother freak anyone else out? She totally freaks me out…she reminds me of some dark magic, satan worshipper..[/quote]

    ++++

    Charlotte creeped me out when she was babbling. She truly looked possessed.

  153. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313854"][quote comment="313851"]Is Sun going back to the island WITHOUT Ji? I doubt they’ll be making a pit stop on their way back to the island to pick her up.

    ….Oh, and Libby says Hi. (Sorry, couldn’t resist)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    I think that Hawking said they would ‘get started’. There must be a process and they still ALL have to go back. Kate, Hugo, Aaron, Ji will all get collected somehow.[/quote]
    ++++++

    If she is like a dark magic, satan worshipper, then the process would be a ritual. Sorry, had to say that…..

  154. RGS says:

    Ok so we know for sure that the Losties were disappearing right b4 folks eyes, per Danielle’s reaction.

    Methinks being down in the Temple with Smokey caused the sickness that made the crew crazy.

    Methinks we can put to rest any notion that Ben has altruistic ideas with regard to the 06 and the island. He’s an antagonist period. Accordingly I don’t think one can put any confidence into ANYTHING this man has stated, implied or whatever. Hell he said he needed to take Sun to a person when he had the ring on his person the whole time! So while he did have a lil file on Charlotte, he probably only told half the story.

    Ms. Hawkings seemed to be “ok” with not having all the 06(5) with them “we’ll just have to make do?” What happened to “Gawd help us all?”

    Methinks Ms. Hawkings is being manipulated by Ben and that’s why she is helping…Desmond hadn’t reached her yet to pass on whatever message Daniel wanted.

    I strongly agree that the island will be stuck in the Dharma days pre-purge and they will integrate Dharma, but how will they escape the purge? The thing that casts some doubt on this for me is that the Widmore expulsion has not been explained.

    Smokey was at the Temple, not the Orchid.

  155. NikkiV says:

    [quote comment="313784"][quote comment="313780"][quote comment="313774"]So Ben did it wrong and left the wheel loose?[/quote]
    I wonder if it will turn out that John did it wrong too – Christian told him to push the wheel, and he pulled it. Small detail, but he seems to get a lot of things just a little wrong.[/quote]
    +++++++
    Maybe, but Christian supervised and talked to him just as he was ‘leaving’. I think he did it correct and the Losties will stop skipping….for awhile.[/quote]

    I don’t know..I agree and thought the same thing. Just told him Ben did it wrong and now you’re pulling and not pushing. I agree, it’s a small detail, but are there really any small details when it comes to LOST??

  156. Hammer says:

    Bedtime for Bonzo, so here you go:

    Put all this in yer brain bucket and shake it around.

    Reincarnation – Canton Rainier

    Char’s hint about ancient Cathage.

    The Little Prince’s asteroid.

    Four toed foot in an ancient Egyptian looking shoe.

    Egyptian type hieroglyphs.

    And of course we all know that aliens built the pyramids. :)

    Although I’m not ready to say LOST had anything to do with aliens…..shake it around.

  157. GMGonzales says:

    I noticed the inconsistent time intervals of the flashes. For example, some happended in a quick series while others occur several minutes apart. Is there any correlation to this and the wheel appearing to be so unstable as to move by itself before Locke approached it?

    Recall, Ben had a tough time moving it.

  158. adriennez says:

    Christian has so far appeared to or with both of his kids (Jack &Claire)…he has appeared to John twice now…could he also be his father? I find it hard to believe that Cooper is really John’s bio. father. Or is Jacob just using Christian’s body right now?

  159. SKE says:

    I think Jacob isn’t a physical person/thing, rather a spiritual, almost godlike presence that can take different forms (and for the past few sightings has taken the form of Christian). But I don’t think Christian is physically present on the island, just an illusion (hence why he couldn’t help Locke up).

    Speaking of Claire, when are we going to learn about what happened to her? Last we saw, she disappeared and was seen in the cabin with Christian/Jacob… is she dead? Any thoughts?

  160. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313866"]I think Jacob isn’t a physical person/thing, rather a spiritual, almost godlike presence that can take different forms (and for the past few sightings has taken the form of Christian). But I don’t think Christian is physically present on the island, just an illusion (hence why he couldn’t help Locke up).

    Speaking of Claire, when are we going to learn about what happened to her? Last we saw, she disappeared and was seen in the cabin with Christian/Jacob… is she dead? Any thoughts?[/quote]

    +++++
    Well, since his body is still missing, I have to believe he isn’t an illusion. I mean how could Locke just dream up a guy that he has never seen before who just happens to look like Christian Shepherd and not to mention, says he IS him?

  161. mylee says:

    [quote comment="313850"][quote comment="313843"][quote comment="313839"][quote comment="313836"]A push from DocH got me to relisten to Char’s babbling:

    She mentioned chocolate before dinner…anyone remember Apollo bars?

    I know more about ancient culture than ???? himself.

    Turn it up…I love…?????

    Anyone pick up the missing words?[/quote]

    I think Charlotte said she knew about Cartha than Hannibal himself.

    : ) P[/quote]
    **********************

    and jeronimo jackson is who she loved[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Thanks, got it…I have a hard time with the accents when they whisper. LOL[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    Jeronimo Jackson is a musician (or band). Hurley played the record back when it was his shift in the hatch. He also wore a shirt that had Jeronimo jackson in psychadelic 70s font. Sorry, i’m not sure of the exact episode. this confirms that charlotte was definitely on the island before, and part of the Dharma Initiative. please correct me if im wrong.

  162. 6th here we come says:

    When Ben moved the wheel he ended up in the middle east somewhere in an episode last year. So now Locke moved the wheel and he ends up in LA–but he’s dead, a sacrifice. Interesting. Did Desmond accomplish what he was supposed to do? I don’t think he told Faraday’s mom wha he was supposed too and he definitely wasn’t expecting the island returnees and Ben.

  163. gigi says:

    Just a few comments:
    First- what’s up with all of John’s leg injuries? He has had 2 or 3 major injuries on the island itself let alone being paralyzed off the island.

    Second, if Charlotte is the daughter of Annie and Ben, I’m wondering if Ben has helped nudge Char back to the island through various means such as “planting” a Dharma artifact in the desert. Also, could Ben have ulterior motives in getting Daniel and Miles back to the island as well? he seemed pretty darned surprised when Desmond showed up and said that Farrady told him to come see Eloise. Is he aware who Farrady is? and his relationship to Eloise?

  164. gigi says:

    Oops, one more thing…I’m having a hard time catching up and reading all these comments because of the whole west coast thing, so maybe this has been said already, but what if Charlotte’s father is Widmore?

  165. Mr. $tuart says:

    I don’t know about you guys, but I’ve always thought that Captain Eyeliner looks like an ancient Egyptian. When I saw the heiroglyphics on the temple I immediately thought of Alpert.

  166. pandakim says:

    in response to: “Sorry, i’m not sure of the exact episode. this confirms that charlotte was definitely on the island before, and part of the Dharma Initiative. please correct me if im wrong.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    I am sure this has been discussed before- i’m just now checking out this blog this year-sorry in advance. i am sure Charlotte was the baby in the season 5 opener, “Because you Left” with Dr. Chang. So, doubtful Ben is her biological father. I’m not sure how old Ben was at that time-braindead. Maybe Charles Widmore is her father-I think someone else mentioned this. But why did Dr. Chang and his wife have her? has this been answered on previous blogs???

  167. Scooter says:

    I think Faraday starts controlling his time travel at some point after the current timeline. He goes back to Dharma days and convinces Charlotte’s mom that she needs to leave with her daughter and tells Charlotte never to come back in an attempt to avoid her death. He doesn’t remember it because he hasn’t done it yet in his “real” timeline. Not sure if that fits the “rules” about time travel others have constructed here, but it makes sense to me =)

  168. mcotter says:

    [quote comment="313880"]

    I am sure this has been discussed before- i’m just now checking out this blog this year-sorry in advance. i am sure Charlotte was the baby in the season 5 opener, “Because you Left” with Dr. Chang. So, doubtful Ben is her biological father. I’m not sure how old Ben was at that time-braindead. Maybe Charles Widmore is her father-I think someone else mentioned this. But why did Dr. Chang and his wife have her? has this been answered on previous blogs???[/quote]

    i think we’ve come to the conclusion that its is Miles not Charlotte in the opener with Marvin Candle, Charlottes dad I think will be either Widmore, Alpert or Ben, good posts everyone, I too hope that the flashes will have stopped for now and the reason the O6 are going back isn’t to stop the time flashes, that has never seemed very substantial to me. Anyone else thinking that it is possible some of the island losties may run into Henry Gale at some point? we can only hope

  169. deangoodes says:

    My question is are the remaining Losties on the island frozen in the time slot they are at when Locke puts the FDW back on it’s axis? Was there a flash when Locke moved the FDW, alluding to the fact that the correct timeline has been re-established?
    I was a fan of Charlotte’s. If she is really dead, I will miss her. She looked out for herself but never brought harm to anyone else. I would have trusted her had I been a Lostie.

  170. WTF says:

    [quote comment="313783"]Where I’m confused is that it seemed that Christian was saying Ben is NOT on Locke’s side, but then again, it still seems like Christian was getting Locke to do what Ben wants him to do. WTF?[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Yes?

  171. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313891"]My question is are the remaining Losties on the island frozen in the time slot they are at when Locke puts the FDW back on it’s axis? Was there a flash when Locke moved the FDW, alluding to the fact that the correct timeline has been re-established?
    I was a fan of Charlotte’s. If she is really dead, I will miss her. She looked out for herself but never brought harm to anyone else. I would have trusted her had I been a Lostie.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    I don’t think the ‘correct’ timeline was established. Like mentioned earlier, I think the skipping was stopped, but they will be stuck ‘when ever’ they are when Locke ‘fixed’ the wheel.

  172. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313894"][quote comment="313783"]Where I’m confused is that it seemed that Christian was saying Ben is NOT on Locke’s side, but then again, it still seems like Christian was getting Locke to do what Ben wants him to do. WTF?[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Yes?[/quote]
    LOL. You know what I mean by WTF?, right?

  173. katiela says:

    This is quick but a) great post and b) re: “based on Jin’s chance meeting with Rousseau last week, we see that she is already pregnant when arriving at the Island – so that begs the question of whether/when she and Ben previously met.” – Ben is NOT the father of Alex. Robert was the father… remember, the Others stole Rousseau’s baby and Ben raised Alex as his own. He’s not the Dad, just like Kate is not really Aaron’s mother.

  174. sector7 says:

    Look, when the Frenchies went in the hole, they were not made “sick”, but rather enlightened. Once enlightened, they knew secrets about the island, like the fact that smokey is a security system. To Danielle, they seemed sick or Other-like, which freaked her out so she started shooting them. Robert was trying to shoot her in self defense.

  175. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="313856"]I’m confused about Faraday telling Charlotte in the past that she should never come back to the island. Why doesn’t he remember going back in time and telling Charlotte, or does he and he’s just not telling her? [/quote]

    Well my newest thought does put a kink in the encyclopedia analogy, but here it is…

    At some point, there will be a jump (either a flash, or purposefully) that will take Daniel (and perhaps the other) to the 70’s – the DHARMA days. We’ve already seen that Daniel was there (but in the mixed up time of the storytelling of LOST, we don’t know where in the chronology of the storytelling, he actually went there).

    So I think we will see this jump, which “to us” will happen AFTER Charlotte dies. We will see Faraday IN HIS PRESENT BODY visit little Charlotte and tell her NEVER to come back to the island. He is TRYING to change the future by changing the past. (Clearly, he will have been unsuccessful.)

    As I said, the fact that before she died, Charlotte had a memory of an incident that has not yet taken place, throws the encyclopedia and photoshop analogies out the window.

    : ) P

  176. sector7 says:

    I think John stopped the time skips, and sent the James gang to the Dharma 70s/80s era. Now we will see Dan with Chang, Dan telling young Charlotte she must leave, and more information regarding the purge. I’m betting the James gang might have something to do with the purge now.

  177. Tasha says:

    Is there anyway that Charlotte isn’t going to really be dead? If you can’t change the past or future then doesn’t that mean she can’t die? That would effect the future. We know she is alive in 2004/2005, so wouldn’t she have to live in present time? Or has thought already been discussed?

  178. WTF says:

    [quote comment="313896"][quote comment="313894"][quote comment="313783"]Where I’m confused is that it seemed that Christian was saying Ben is NOT on Locke’s side, but then again, it still seems like Christian was getting Locke to do what Ben wants him to do. WTF?[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Yes?[/quote]
    LOL. You know what I mean by WTF?, right?[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Yes, it is what I say at the end of every show. If not out loud, at least in my head.

  179. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313905"][quote comment="313856"]I’m confused about Faraday telling Charlotte in the past that she should never come back to the island. Why doesn’t he remember going back in time and telling Charlotte, or does he and he’s just not telling her? [/quote]

    Well my newest thought does put a kink in the encyclopedia analogy, but here it is…

    At some point, there will be a jump (either a flash, or purposefully) that will take Daniel (and perhaps the other) to the 70’s – the DHARMA days. We’ve already seen that Daniel was there (but in the mixed up time of the storytelling of LOST, we don’t know where in the chronology of the storytelling, he actually went there).

    So I think we will see this jump, which “to us” will happen AFTER Charlotte dies. We will see Faraday IN HIS PRESENT BODY visit little Charlotte and tell her NEVER to come back to the island. He is TRYING to change the future by changing the past. (Clearly, he will have been unsuccessful.)

    As I said, the fact that before she died, Charlotte had a memory of an incident that has not yet taken place, throws the encyclopedia and photoshop analogies out the window.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Struggling with that. That would have Dan attempting to REALLY change the past/future which he alreay knows will get course corrected if he did.

    I think she was having a memory of something that DID already happen. And her ending up on the island WAS the course correction because she should have died in the purge.

  180. PJSander says:

    Regarding the Remaining LOSTies being stuck in whatever time they were in, I agree that is likely. However, was there another flash when Locke turned the FDW?

    They were at the Orchid, *flash* Orchid is gone and only a well (so they went BACK in time), *flash* the well is gone (so they went a LOT FURTHER back in time). So unless there was another flash when Locke turned the FDW, they should be stuck back in a time long before the DI arrived.

    : ) P

  181. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313907"]Is there anyway that Charlotte isn’t going to really be dead? If you can’t change the past or future then doesn’t that mean she can’t die? That would effect the future. We know she is alive in 2004/2005, so wouldn’t she have to live in present time? Or has thought already been discussed?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    Sort of, we discussed this scenario to explain how Frogurt died ‘in the past’. Because the time tavel JUST happened, it didn’t ‘always’ happen.

  182. birdwatcher says:

    [quote comment="313909"][quote comment="313905"][quote comment="313856"]I’m confused about Faraday telling Charlotte in the past that she should never come back to the island. Why doesn’t he remember going back in time and telling Charlotte, or does he and he’s just not telling her? [/quote]

    Well my newest thought does put a kink in the encyclopedia analogy, but here it is…

    At some point, there will be a jump (either a flash, or purposefully) that will take Daniel (and perhaps the other) to the 70’s – the DHARMA days. We’ve already seen that Daniel was there (but in the mixed up time of the storytelling of LOST, we don’t know where in the chronology of the storytelling, he actually went there).

    So I think we will see this jump, which “to us” will happen AFTER Charlotte dies. We will see Faraday IN HIS PRESENT BODY visit little Charlotte and tell her NEVER to come back to the island. He is TRYING to change the future by changing the past. (Clearly, he will have been unsuccessful.)

    As I said, the fact that before she died, Charlotte had a memory of an incident that has not yet taken place, throws the encyclopedia and photoshop analogies out the window.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Struggling with that. That would have Dan attempting to REALLY change the past/future which he alreay knows will get course corrected if he did.

    I think she was having a memory of something that DID already happen. And her ending up on the island WAS the course correction because she should have died in the purge.[/quote]

    +++++++++
    Of course, I don’t think logic follows when love is involved. He wouldn’t care if it’s not following the rules and he isn’t supposed to do it, he just would.

    Also, does anyone else think that Charlotte could be Annie? If they are back in the 70s couldn’t Daniel have told Charlotte and her mom to get off the island and how to (the well – which is why Charlotte knew about the well) and then, the construction began on the orchid after that (which is where we see Daniel in ep 1). When Char/Annie and her mom travelled through time, they ended up in the future (which is why Charlotte is in her late 20s rather than Ben’s age)? It would also explain her love of 70s music….

  183. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313910"]Regarding the Remaining LOSTies being stuck in whatever time they were in, I agree that is likely. However, was there another flash when Locke turned the FDW?

    They were at the Orchid, *flash* Orchid is gone and only a well (so they went BACK in time), *flash* the well is gone (so they went a LOT FURTHER back in time). So unless there was another flash when Locke turned the FDW, they should be stuck back in a time long before the DI arrived.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    My GUESS would be that yes, there was a flash when Locke turned the wheel. Likley the one that puts them in the DHARMA era that we have guessed at. It looked to me like there was a flash just like Ben’s, maybe a different color?

  184. Mia says:

    I don’t think Ben is Charlottes father based on how he reacted when she came to the island? Didn’t he try to shoot her?

  185. Craig says:

    [quote comment="313669"][quote comment="313659"]So I wonder where in the world Locke will end up when he dies on the island (if in fact he does actually “die”). How does Ben know where to find him since he himself ended up in a Tunisian desert?[/quote]
    Didn’t Locke die somewhere in LA as Jack read in the article last season before going to his funeral?[/quote]
    Obviously he dosnt die ON the island, he talked to Jack and some of the others before he died

  186. Stacy says:

    So we all figured out I hope that faradays mother; elouse is Ellie from the 1950s and I bet whitmore is his father

  187. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313919"][quote comment="313669"][quote comment="313659"]So I wonder where in the world Locke will end up when he dies on the island (if in fact he does actually “die”). How does Ben know where to find him since he himself ended up in a Tunisian desert?[/quote]
    Didn’t Locke die somewhere in LA as Jack read in the article last season before going to his funeral?[/quote]
    Obviously he dosnt die ON the island, he talked to Jack and some of the others before he died[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Hopefully next week we find out if you always go to Tunisia when you turn the wheel.

  188. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313914"]I don’t think Ben is Charlottes father based on how he reacted when she came to the island? Didn’t he try to shoot her?[/quote]

    Yes. He also didn’t know her like he thought he did.

  189. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="313897"]This is quick but a) great post and b) re: “based on Jin’s chance meeting with Rousseau last week, we see that she is already pregnant when arriving at the Island – so that begs the question of whether/when she and Ben previously met.” – Ben is NOT the father of Alex. Robert was the father… remember, the Others stole Rousseau’s baby and Ben raised Alex as his own. He’s not the Dad, just like Kate is not really Aaron’s mother.[/quote]
    The reason Will brought up the issue of Ben being Alex’s father is because that possibility has been discussed here frequently over the last few years. But as you stated, this episode seems to bring that issue to a resolution (or, as close to a resolution as you can get with Lost!)

  190. theworstspy says:

    Faraday IS Jacob perhaps? Why is he not effected by the time switches, like Locke?

  191. adriennez says:

    Did Charlotte say that she lived on the island and was part of Dharma? Maybe she was one of the others…could explain why she knew about the well.

  192. Frank says:

    Am I missing something critical (i didn’t see other comments about this ) but didn’t CS say to John while he was turning the wheel ‘say hello to my son’ to which John said ‘who’s your son?’

  193. Hammer says:

    I’ve decided that I’m giving up on the constants just yet. I think Sawyer had the nose bleed because even though he ‘saw’ Kate, he didn’t interact with her. Des grounded himself by interacting with Penny. Locke interacted with several folks. Jin interacted with Danielle. Dan interacted with Des (and we know from Dan’s notebook that Des is his constatnt). But Juliette, Miles, Char, Sawyer didn’t.

  194. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313928"]Am I missing something critical (i didn’t see other comments about this ) but didn’t CS say to John while he was turning the wheel ‘say hello to my son’ to which John said ‘who’s your son?’[/quote]
    You are correct, that happened. I don’t think CS ever told Locke in their only two meetings that he was Jack’s dad, in fact, I don’t think he even said his last name….just Christian.

  195. Mia says:

    Yes, and if Christian is not really “Christian” and it his only his body being used, then why would he say “say hello to my son” ? Leads me to think that it is really Christian Shepard (but he still could be dead or half-dead).

  196. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313932"]Yes, and if Christian is not really “Christian” and it his only his body being used, then why would he say “say hello to my son” ? Leads me to think that it is really Christian Shepard (but he still could be dead or half-dead).[/quote]
    Canton Rainier(reincarnation)….reincarnated?

  197. Toeknee says:

    I’m not quite following the comments about “the temple”. (e.g Hammer in #109, RGS in #155) People seem to be saying that the area around Smokey’s hole is the temple – is that correct? Do we know for certain this is the case? I just thought the hole was Smokey’s home. I know Robert said something about the security system for the temple, but I didn’t take that to mean Smokey’s hole is the temple. I thought the temple could be elsewhere on the island.

    And regarding smokey and hole – did Montand ever come out of the hole? We saw two dead bodies on the beach, and then Robert got killed. But all those guys went down into the hole, yet somehow they came back? Without Montand? So what exactly happened to Montand?

  198. Kathy P says:

    I thought that John was to “Move” the island. Do you think the island will disappear again?

  199. Hurley's Dad says:

    [quote comment="313934"]I’m not quite following the comments about “the temple”. (e.g Hammer in #109, RGS in #155)

    People seem to be saying that the area around Smokey’s hole is the temple – is that correct?

    Do we know for certain this is the case? I just thought the hole was Smokey’s home. I know Robert said something about the security system for the temple, but I didn’t take that to mean Smokey’s hole is the temple. I thought the temple could be elsewhere on the island.

    And regarding smokey and hole – did Montand ever come out of the hole? We saw two dead bodies on the beach, and then Robert got killed. But all those guys went down into the hole, yet somehow they came back? Without Montand? So what exactly happened to Montand?[/quote]
    Robert called it a temple, which is leading to the speculation.

  200. Hurley's Dad says:

    [quote comment="313920"]So we all figured out I hope that faradays mother; elouse is Ellie from the 1950s and I bet whitmore is his father[/quote]
    I’m still sticking with Charles Widmore as Ellie’s brother.

  201. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="313897"]This is quick but a) great post and b) re: “based on Jin’s chance meeting with Rousseau last week, we see that she is already pregnant when arriving at the Island – so that begs the question of whether/when she and Ben previously met.” – Ben is NOT the father of Alex. Robert was the father… remember, the Others stole Rousseau’s baby and Ben raised Alex as his own. He’s not the Dad, just like Kate is not really Aaron’s mother.[/quote]

    I agree that it is LIKELY that Robert is Alex’s father, but I also don’t believe that we can definitively rule ANYTHING out (without a DNA test! LOL). Just because Robert THINKS he is the baby’s father doesn’t MAKE him the baby’s father! It’s D&C were talking about here, nothing paternal is SIMPLE! LOL.

    : ) P

  202. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313934"]I’m not quite following the comments about “the temple”. (e.g Hammer in #109, RGS in #155)

    People seem to be saying that the area around Smokey’s hole is the temple – is that correct?

    Do we know for certain this is the case? I just thought the hole was Smokey’s home. I know Robert said something about the security system for the temple, but I didn’t take that to mean Smokey’s hole is the temple. I thought the temple could be elsewhere on the island.

    And regarding smokey and hole – did Montand ever come out of the hole? We saw two dead bodies on the beach, and then Robert got killed. But all those guys went down into the hole, yet somehow they came back? Without Montand? So what exactly happened to Montand?[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Well we don’t know for sure. But I tried to put things together. Remember the passage way that Ben used to summon Smokey to attack Keamy’s group? It seemed to resemble the Temple. So assuming that Smokey hangs out in a tunnel system and the system has an entrance by that ‘building’ I am guessing that the ‘security system’ for the Temple would be very close to the Temple. And Robert told that to us in so many words. No?

  203. marco says:

    Did anyone catch the homage to Austin Powers when after the french dude is pulled down into the temple by smokey, and his arm is torn off, he’s saying I’m down here but I’m ok. I know it was the “system” luring the others down but still.

  204. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313940"]Did anyone catch the homage to Austin Powers when after the french dude is pulled down into the temple by smokey, and his arm is torn off, he’s saying I’m down here but I’m ok.

    I know it was the “system” luring the others down but still.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Oh, that’s funny! “It’s starting to smell like Almonds.” LOL.

  205. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="313932"]Yes, and if Christian is not really “Christian” and it his only his body being used, then why would he say “say hello to my son” ? Leads me to think that it is really Christian Shepard (but he still could be dead or half-dead).[/quote]

    We also, possibly purposefully, never HEARD Christian’s answer to his son’s name. For all we know, he didn’t really MEAN Jack. It wouldn’t be the first time that a flash had prevented the character, and indeed the audience, from learning the TRUTH.

    Which leads me to… we are supposed to believe that Eloise Hawking is Daniel’s mother. I think it is likely, but I also feel like it could be another trick. Purely from the character development, English accents and timing, I think it is more likely that Mrs. Hawking is Charlotte’s mother. I like butcher-shop Jill as Daniel’s mother.

    : ) P
    who has just ratcheted up the conjecture to a new level!

  206. Tasha says:

    I think Kate, Danielle, and Alex all had a striking resemblance even when they are all dirty in the jungle!

    So I have read a lot of theories on Charles being Ellie/Hawkings wife/brother/whatelse? Anyhow, if she is related or married to Charles, why is she working against him with Ben? Charles knows exactly where she is, so why can’t he just ASK her where the island is since they are friends/ ex-friends/ ex spouses/ family members. Seems to me that all of this is really twisted and can go in many directions at this point. I am really confused on who is calling the shots, who is in charge, and who is at war with who. I know that this is all being talked about, but I feel like there is something really big missing that is throwing all the theories way off.

    In conclusion, I am starting to wonder if all the O6 have a connection to this island. We have kids being adopted all over the place. Where did James parents get so much money for Locke’s dad to embezzle? Who sacrificed their lives to get the plane to crash on the island? Could Shepherd have killed…or should i say SACRIFICED…. himself in Australia to make sure that Jack ended up on that plane? Pay Claire’s psychic to make sure Claire ended up there as well? Be in cahoots with the guy that got Sawyer to go to Australia in the first place?

    Last on my thoughts juggling around my head. Was Charlotte’s mom lying to her to PROTECT her or did she not remember the island? I am thinking that everyone including parents were brainwashed to forget. Why would she tell her daughter, “Oh! Everything you remember about your childhood was a dream! It never happened!” As a mother I don’t see myself lying to my 8 year old and who knows how old Charlotte was, unless her mother truly believed that it never happened either.

    I know my post sounds confusing but I think I need it to be Wed night again already because i can’t handle this!!!!

  207. SDlost says:

    -How about the rope that Sawyer was holding still being in the ground after the time change. I think that confirms our theory that whatever they are in contact with at the time of the switch goes with them.

    -Ji Yeon is with Sun’s mother – she is adorable!

    -What was charlotte yelling to Jin in Korean? She definitely looked possessed!

  208. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313944"]

    Which leads me to… we are supposed to believe that Eloise Hawking is Daniel’s mother. I think it is likely, but I also feel like it could be another trick. Purely from the character development, English accents and timing, I think it is more likely that Mrs. Hawking is Charlotte’s mother.

    I like butcher-shop Jill as Daniel’s mother.

    : ) P
    who has just ratcheted up the conjecture to a new level![/quote]

    Did you see the puzzled look on Ben’s face when Desmond said “Faraday’s mother”?

  209. DHuck says:

    The reason Locke’s leg(s) were broken is that you have to be injured to turn the wheel. Remember that Ben was injured (shot). Coincidence?

  210. lost4ever says:

    Does Charlotte’s body keep traveling through time even though she is now dead? Let’s hear it Hammer (whisperer)

  211. Peet says:

    One thing i havent seen anyone mention. Did Jin know Charlotte spoke Korean? Seemed like after Miles said he was from Encino Jin still persisted with the translating until Charlotte gave in.

  212. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="313947"]

    -What was charlotte yelling to Jin in Korean? She definitely looked possessed![/quote]
    Possessed? Maybe, but she was traveling through different stages of her life the same way Minkowski did.

  213. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="313939"][quote comment="313934"]I’m not quite following the comments about “the temple”. (e.g Hammer in #109, RGS in #155)

    People seem to be saying that the area around Smokey’s hole is the temple – is that correct?

    Do we know for certain this is the case? I just thought the hole was Smokey’s home. I know Robert said something about the security system for the temple, but I didn’t take that to mean Smokey’s hole is the temple. I thought the temple could be elsewhere on the island.

    And regarding smokey and hole – did Montand ever come out of the hole? We saw two dead bodies on the beach, and then Robert got killed. But all those guys went down into the hole, yet somehow they came back? Without Montand? So what exactly happened to Montand?[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Well we don’t know for sure. But I tried to put things together. Remember the passage way that Ben used to summon Smokey to attack Keamy’s group? It seemed to resemble the Temple. So assuming that Smokey hangs out in a tunnel system and the system has an entrance by that ‘building’ I am guessing that the ‘security system’ for the Temple would be very close to the Temple. And Robert told that to us in so many words. No?[/quote]
    ____________________________
    I know Robert mentioned the temple, and I can understand the the thought that the security system should be close to the temple, and I can see putting one and one together and getting two (i.e., smokey’s hole is at the temple). But I wasn’t sure if there was something more definitive stated in this episode.

    I don’t recall all the details of when Ben summoned Smokey to get Keamy – I’ll have to re-watch that scene.

  214. SDlost says:

    [quote comment="313952"]One thing i havent seen anyone mention. Did Jin know Charlotte spoke Korean? Seemed like after Miles said he was from Encino Jin still persisted with the translating until Charlotte gave in.[/quote]

    _______________________________________

    Jin and Sun both knew that Charlotte spoke Korean. I don’t remember what season or episode but Jin had seen that Charlotte understood their conversation in Korean and told Sun.

  215. Jaime says:

    [quote comment="313789"]OK….so, Danielle’s people had gone nuts. Her man tried to shoot her and the gun didn’t go off, so she wasn’t meant to die yet. [/quote]
    *****************************************************

    She took out the firing pin on purpose just in case it came to a confrontation with him. It wasn’t that she wasn’t meant to die.

    [quote comment="313826"][quote comment="313819"]yeah, I’ll go ahead and say it…Charlotte is Ben and Annie’s daughter…[/quote]
    Ah ha![/quote]
    ***************************************************

    Hopefully not, he tried to kill her when she first came to the island. She survived due to the bullet proof vest she was wearing.

    [quote comment="313860"]
    Ms. Hawkings seemed to be “ok” with not having all the 06(5) with them “we’ll just have to make do?” What happened to “Gawd help us all?”

    I strongly agree that the island will be stuck in the Dharma days pre-purge and they will integrate Dharma, but how will they escape the purge? The thing that casts some doubt on this for me is that the Widmore expulsion has not been explained.[/quote]
    ****************************************************
    Thats what i was thinking. Why after the season long of “They ALL have to go back” was she so damn calm with it just being a few of them?

    And I strongly agree as well that we are going to the Dharma Days pre-purge. They are going to see and interact w/ young Ben, Annie, Charlotte, and possible Miles. Chang will be there, Ben’s dad, the Goodspeeds. Excellent!!!

    [quote comment="313926"]Faraday IS Jacob perhaps? Why is he not effected by the time switches, like Locke?[/quote]
    ***************************************************

    Here is an article i was reading recently that says Faraday is the reason for four toed statue and that he possible assumes the identity of Jacob….not sure what i think yet though
    http://www.docarzt.com/lost/lost-theories/lost-theory-the-four-toed-statue-solved/

    Could it be possible that Daniel was born on the Island as well?

    [quote comment="313939"][quote comment="313934"]I’m not quite following the comments about “the temple”. (e.g Hammer in #109, RGS in #155)

    People seem to be saying that the area around Smokey’s hole is the temple – is that correct?[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Well we don’t know for sure. But I tried to put things together. Remember the passage way that Ben used to summon Smokey to attack Keamy’s group? It seemed to resemble the Temple. So assuming that Smokey hangs out in a tunnel system and the system has an entrance by that ‘building’ I am guessing that the ‘security system’ for the Temple would be very close to the Temple.[/quote]
    ******************************************************
    Bens “secret room” in the barracks house was the entrance to where he released Smokey. Could someone find this “control room” and deactivate it? Could that barracks house have been built on top of this MUCH older structure on purpose? Is it possible that below the entire island is The Temple or the location where the ancient civilization once lived?

    One last thought…..I’m guessing that Locke kept his promise to Jin. when he and Ben met up off island Locke told Ben that Jin was dead and showed him the ring as proof. Once Locke died, maybe Ben took the ring and used it to argue the opposite point. Maybe Ben has no idea either way if Jin is in fact alive or dead

  216. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313955"][quote comment="313952"]One thing i havent seen anyone mention. Did Jin know Charlotte spoke Korean? Seemed like after Miles said he was from Encino Jin still persisted with the translating until Charlotte gave in.[/quote]

    _______________________________________

    Jin and Sun both knew that Charlotte spoke Korean. I don’t remember what season or episode but Jin had seen that Charlotte understood their conversation in Korean and told Sun.[/quote]

    It was last season in Something nice Back Home…Jack’s episode where he got sick. Sun and Jin went to get the medical supplies with Charlotte and Dan. Jin realized she spoke Korean and confronted her about it but she lied. Then she caved in when Jin threatened Dan. He told her to make sure when the helicopter came to make sure Sun was on it. Nobody else knew she spoke Korean.

  217. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="313946"]

    Last on my thoughts juggling around my head. Was Charlotte’s mom lying to her to PROTECT her or did she not remember the island? I am thinking that everyone including parents were brainwashed to forget. Why would she tell her daughter, “Oh! Everything you remember about your childhood was a dream! It never happened!” As a mother I don’t see myself lying to my 8 year old and who knows how old Charlotte was, unless her mother truly believed that it never happened either.
    [/quote]

    I don’t think that is necessarily true. It would be far more dangerous to have a little kid going around talking about mysterious islands, especially since people had been killed there.

  218. Bananahands says:

    When Charlotte said and old Daniel told her not to go back to the island she was having a memory similar in nature to what happened to Desmond when Daniel spoke with him at the hatch.

    An old Daniel goes back in time to when a young Charlotte was on the island and tells her not to go back because he knows she will die.

    This is also why Daniel doesn’t remember.. because he has yet to do this.

    Hope that makes sense

  219. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313958"][quote comment="313946"]

    Last on my thoughts juggling around my head. Was Charlotte’s mom lying to her to PROTECT her or did she not remember the island? I am thinking that everyone including parents were brainwashed to forget. Why would she tell her daughter, “Oh! Everything you remember about your childhood was a dream! It never happened!” As a mother I don’t see myself lying to my 8 year old and who knows how old Charlotte was, unless her mother truly believed that it never happened either.
    [/quote]

    I don’t think that is necessarily true. It would be far more dangerous to have a little kid going around talking about mysterious islands, especially since people had been killed there.[/quote]

    I know…JMO. There comes a time where a child changes over to an adult. Her mother could have explained itto her. She already was having memories and wanted to go back. Her father must have never been talked about to her either because if none of it was real than her father wouldn’t have been either. I just don’t see why her mom would lie to her her whole life. Especially if she knew she was searching for this place. I could understand lying to a baby but telling an older child that remembers is setting them up to be CRAZY. She said she was raised on the island so she was there for a bit. You can’t just deny a person or child their memories. Anyhow, it’s just bothering me…..

  220. Peet says:

    [quote comment="313959"]When Charlotte said and old Daniel told her not to go back to the island she was having a memory similar in nature to what happened to Desmond when Daniel spoke with him at the hatch.

    An old Daniel goes back in time to when a young Charlotte was on the island and tells her not to go back because he knows she will die.

    This is also why Daniel doesn’t remember.. because he has yet to do this.

    Hope that makes sense[/quote]
    itll be interesting to see what happens now that Daniel knows that he tells Char about not coming back to the island when he knows she will. Is he going to do the same thing even if he knows it doesnt work or will he try to find another way to keep Char from the island.

  221. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="313774"]So Ben did it wrong and left the wheel loose?[/quote]
    I didn’t see this followed upon, but maybe you already figured this out. I don’t think it was Ben who left it loose. It appears that the date that Locke turns the wheel is before the Orchid station was built, and therefore before Ben turned the wheel.

  222. sector7 says:

    The structure next to smokeys hole did not look like anything shown before. I think we can conclude it was the temple. There’s no other explaination for Robert referenceing it.

  223. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="313965"]The structure next to smokeys hole did not look like anything shown before. I think we can conclude it was the temple. There’s no other explaination for Robert referenceing it.[/quote]
    I can go along with that. I guess I was expecting a more signficant structure, and a more dramatic, explicit reveal like we’ve had with most of the other structures on the island.

  224. Jen says:

    In the episode Jughead Daniel told Richard he loved Charlotte but (as far as I can remember) they never embraced or showed love like lovers. I think he loves her because their related not because he’s in love with her. Charlotte even questioned why Daniel said that & he said because it’s true.

  225. Toeknee says:

    A couple thoughts about the FDW:

    It wasn’t frozen when Locke got down there, it became frozen after he turned it.

    When Locke turns the wheel, shouldn’t the island move again?

    Not sure if there’s any significance to these, I just thought I’d throw them out there.

  226. duke says:

    [quote comment="313796"]Okay. Seems to me that we have a BOTH/AND situation here:

    Yes, Ben almost certainly has ulterior motives for getting them all back on the island

    AND It’s likely that they *must* indeed all come back to the island in order to stop the time travel shifts.

    In other words, it’s gonna be bad, but they’ve got to do it anyway. Isn’t that just the way it is? :)[/quote]
    From watching last nights episode, I was under the impression that they were skipping because the wheel was off it’s axis. I think that is rather obvious. What we don’t know now that Locke put it back is WHEN did it stop? I believe that it stopped in the past somewhere and the people coming back will arrive at a different place in the island’s history than when they left. I believe sometime when Ben was a little boy and his dad worked for Dharma.

  227. Mia says:

    PJ, I’m with you on the fact (and many others)that I still don’t fully buy into belief that Eloise is Daniel’s mother. And yes, Christian never said who is son was! Could be talking about Jack – could be talking about someone else?

  228. Toeknee says:

    RE: comments 103 and 107 about Charlotte’s development…

    D&C have said that the backstories of the “freighter tots”, as some here referred to them, were suupposed to have been more significant parts of season 4, but the writers’ strike changed that. So for Charlotte they apparently had to cram all her information into a 2 minute deathbed scene.

  229. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="313905"][quote comment="313856"]I’m confused about Faraday telling Charlotte in the past that she should never come back to the island. Why doesn’t he remember going back in time and telling Charlotte, or does he and he’s just not telling her? [/quote]

    Well my newest thought does put a kink in the encyclopedia analogy, but here it is…

    At some point, there will be a jump (either a flash, or purposefully) that will take Daniel (and perhaps the other) to the 70’s – the DHARMA days. We’ve already seen that Daniel was there (but in the mixed up time of the storytelling of LOST, we don’t know where in the chronology of the storytelling, he actually went there).

    So I think we will see this jump, which “to us” will happen AFTER Charlotte dies. We will see Faraday IN HIS PRESENT BODY visit little Charlotte and tell her NEVER to come back to the island. He is TRYING to change the future by changing the past. (Clearly, he will have been unsuccessful.)

    As I said, the fact that before she died, Charlotte had a memory of an incident that has not yet taken place, throws the encyclopedia and photoshop analogies out the window.

    : ) P[/quote]
    _____________________

    I’m not quite ready to give up my photoshop idea entirely. While it is true that Charlotte recalled a memory that – as far as we have seen- has not happened yet, she was also in a state where she seemed to be “mind” traveling all over the place. So it could still hold, although it is a little harder to hold on to it.

  230. duke says:

    [quote comment="313836"]A push from DocH got me to relisten to Char’s babbling:

    She mentioned chocolate before dinner…anyone remember Apollo bars?

    I know more about ancient culture than ???? himself.

    Turn it up…I love…?????

    Anyone pick up the missing words?[/quote]
    Charlotte said she loved Geronimo jackson, a I believe fake band that Hurley made reference to in season 2. He said something to charlie about going to the hatch they’ve got geronimo jackson record down there or something.

  231. Toeknee says:

    In Jin’s scenes with Rousseau, I was expecting Jin to tell Rousseau about “the Others” on the island. Then that would have brought up the question, who came up with the term “the Others”? Rousseau used that term with Sayid, then Sayid used it with Jin and the rest of the Losties, then Jin mentions it to Rousseau, etc. Sort of like Alpert’s compass (or is it Locke’s compass?)

  232. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313964"][quote comment="313774"]So Ben did it wrong and left the wheel loose?[/quote]
    I didn’t see this followed upon, but maybe you already figured this out. I don’t think it was Ben who left it loose. It appears that the date that Locke turns the wheel is before the Orchid station was built, and therefore before Ben turned the wheel.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Well let’s remember that the island is not necessarily traveling in time…it’s the Losties that are skipping. The wheel is loose because it’s loose, not only loose in a certain time that the Losties are in.

  233. duke says:

    Also, I dont know if this has been discussed before but I think this episode reveals why Locke had to die.He had to die so that Sun would come to the island. If Locke were alive and Sun were to find him then he would have told her that Jin in dead and then she would have no reason to come to the island.[/quote]

    I believe Locke was lying to Jin. Locke believes that they all have to go back but I do not think that is the case.

  234. SDlost says:

    Sometimes I think that if the losties had better communication skills then most of these questions would be answered by now. It would have been easier to get the O6 people together if Jack threw some sort of O6 reunion party and asked them all to come, ya know?!?!

    I know, it’s just TV…

  235. dadmandrama says:

    I haven’t seen this mentioned here yet. A lot of thoughts posted on earlier episodes suggested that the time travelers cannot change the future through their actions. But on last nights episode, we see Jin convincing Danielle Rousseau not to enter Smokey’s hole with the guys. Had he not been there, she would’ve gone down the hole with the rest of them. Because she did not go down the hole, she ends up shooting all of them. Isn’t this evidence that the time travelers do change the future? Danielle Rousseau in 2004 would not have had the story she told, were it not for Jin keeping her out of Smokey’s hole in 1988.

  236. duke says:

    [quote comment="313910"]Regarding the Remaining LOSTies being stuck in whatever time they were in, I agree that is likely. However, was there another flash when Locke turned the FDW?

    They were at the Orchid, *flash* Orchid is gone and only a well (so they went BACK in time), *flash* the well is gone (so they went a LOT FURTHER back in time). So unless there was another flash when Locke turned the FDW, they should be stuck back in a time long before the DI arrived.

    : ) P[/quote]
    Maybe they went to the future. Just because the ORchid was gone does not mean that they went back in time. Maybe at some point the orchid gets destroyed and at some other point the well gets filled up to protect the wheel from being used again. The 1st episode this season Chang freaked out because his construction guy wanted to blow up the wall with the wheel behind it. He said something about that energy getting out would cause a world of hurt.

  237. Mia says:

    dadmandrama, maybe Danielle Rousseau woudn’t have gone down there anyhow (even without Jin being there)? Maybe Robert would of talked her into going back up?

  238. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313979"]

    I believe Locke was lying to Jin. Locke believes that they all have to go back but I do not think that is the case.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    I don’t think Locke lied to Jin. And I still believe that they ALL have to go back and they ALL will.

  239. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="313981"]Sometimes I think that if the losties had better communication skills then most of these questions would be answered by now. It would have been easier to get the O6 people together if Jack threw some sort of O6 reunion party and asked them all to come, ya know?!?!

    I know, it’s just TV…[/quote]
    Yeah, but who knows how many would have showed up. Remember Hurley’s birthday bash? Very few made it to that LOL

  240. Hurley's Dad says:

    Did I miss something obvious? Why was Sayid mad at Jack? I get something happened that he doesn’t trust Ben, but Sayid seemed equally annoyed at Jack in the end of TPID.

  241. Mia says:

    I’m with you Hammer, Locke didn’t lie to Jin because he most likely never talked to Sun. He gave Jin’s ring to Ben who gave it to Sun.

  242. Mia says:

    Hurley’s Dad, I think Sayid was mad at Jack because he saw how Jack had no idea that Ben was the one behind trying to take Aaron (possibly a strategy to get Kate to the marina). Sayid was probably wondering why Jack could trust Ben after all his lies….

  243. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313987"]Did I miss something obvious? Why was Sayid mad at Jack? I get something happened that he doesn’t trust Ben, but Sayid seemed equally annoyed at Jack in the end of TPID.[/quote]
    ++++++++
    Jack support Ben and them all going back, that’s all Sayid needs.

  244. Frank says:

    sorry if this was mentioned in all the postings ( i don’t think it was) but did anyone notice the hieroglyphics on the “temple?” they looked very much like the hierglyphics when the button was not pushed and “system failure” occurred.

  245. BaileyLovesLost says:

    The look on Ben’s face was priceless when Desmond showed up and asked if they were here to meet Daniel Faraday’s mother also. It seemed like Ben either didn’t know what he was talking about or was wondering how Desmond knew Ms. Hawkings is Daniel’s mother. If Eloise Hawkings is working with Ben to get them back to the island, how would Charles Widmore know exactly where she is? How is it that Sun goes from talking with Charles Widmore at the airport about wanting to kill Ben, to suddenly saying “oh yeah, I’ll go with you now.” Just seeing Jin’s wedding band doesn’t seem like enough to get Sun to go back. And I don’t know who to believe…. Claire and Charlotte have now both said not to bring people back to the island (Claire = Aaron, Charlotte = Sun). Yet Christian, Ben, and Richard are telling Locke that everyone has to come back to the island.
    What if the show ends with everyone travelling back in time before the crash happened and none of them ever get on the plane and none of this stuff ever happens?? I would be disappointed if that happens!

  246. DocH says:

    Great episode. Great theories above. My biggest issue. Have we seen anyone eat anything since the time-jumps started? Time travel must be like “Red Bull” – it gives you wings. That’s why they all have nosebleeds. Ten time jumps (reb bulls) – no food.

    Seriously, with Smokey running around eating French food in 1988… had the sonic fence been constructed yet? If that was the true “temple” and it had the ‘cerberus vent’ (Smokey’s doghouse) underneath it – that means that when the Others vacated the barracks… they were headed for what – protection BY Smokey?

  247. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="313993"]
    Seriously, with Smokey running around eating French food in 1988… had the sonic fence been constructed yet? If that was the true “temple” and it had the ‘cerberus vent’ (Smokey’s doghouse) underneath it – that means that when the Others vacated the barracks… they were headed for what – protection BY Smokey?[/quote]
    I think so Doc. I think the Others were at the Temple by the time Ben did the old ‘get ‘em boy’ trick on Keamy.

  248. Miraks says:

    Conclusions from last night’s episode:
    – Russoeu was telling the truth about how she got on the island and what happened to her crew. She might be wrong about what exactly the “illness” was that led to their death, but overall she was right. I also think we now know- once and for all- that Alex was NOT Ben’s real daughter (it has been stated and shown over and over again by the writers, so let that horse be).

    – Ben was never supposed to move/ leave the island, Locke was. (But didn’t Locke say ” he wants YOU to move the island?” after visiting Jacob’s cabin?)

    – Ben had no idea that Hawkins is related to Farraday. He also was not expecting Dezmond to show up. I think that means only the O6 are supposed to go back, not EVERYONE that left.

    – I don’t think Charlotte is Annie- she and Ben would have recognized/ remembered each other. Also don’t see how she could be their daughter. Annie left when she was just a kid, too young to have left pregnant.

  249. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313982"]I haven’t seen this mentioned here yet. A lot of thoughts posted on earlier episodes suggested that the time travelers cannot change the future through their actions. But on last nights episode, we see Jin convincing Danielle Rousseau not to enter Smokey’s hole with the guys. Had he not been there, she would’ve gone down the hole with the rest of them. Because she did not go down the hole, she ends up shooting all of them. Isn’t this evidence that the time travelers do change the future? Danielle Rousseau in 2004 would not have had the story she told, were it not for Jin keeping her out of Smokey’s hole in 1988.[/quote]

    ANd evidence that it happened BEFORE? Supporting my theory????

  250. Jaime says:

    Funny thought….Remember when Vincent found that arm in the jungle and came out with it in his mouth. Was that Montand arm? I think so

  251. FFam5 says:

    [quote comment="313992"]The look on Ben’s face was priceless when Desmond showed up and asked if they were here to meet Daniel Faraday’s mother also. It seemed like Ben either didn’t know what he was talking about or was wondering how Desmond knew Ms. Hawkings is Daniel’s mother. If Eloise Hawkings is working with Ben to get them back to the island, how would Charles Widmore know exactly where she is? How is it that Sun goes from talking with Charles Widmore at the airport about wanting to kill Ben, to suddenly saying “oh yeah, I’ll go with you now.” Just seeing Jin’s wedding band doesn’t seem like enough to get Sun to go back. And I don’t know who to believe…. Claire and Charlotte have now both said not to bring people back to the island (Claire = Aaron, Charlotte = Sun). Yet Christian, Ben, and Richard are telling Locke that everyone has to come back to the island.
    What if the show ends with everyone travelling back in time before the crash happened and none of them ever get on the plane and none of this stuff ever happens?? I would be disappointed if that happens![/quote]

    ******

    What if Charlotte ment for Ji Yeon not to return to the Island? Jin doesn’t know that Sun has had the baby yet nor if it a Girl or Boy.

  252. Mia says:

    It was also interesting that Eliose Hawking didn’t look surprised to see Desmond with the rest of the O6. Did she expect him? Did she need him there? Ben was surprised he was there but could it be because that was part of his plan and he was surprised it worked out?

  253. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313996"]
    – I don’t think Charlotte is Annie- she and Ben would have recognized/ remembered each other. Also don’t see how she could be their daughter. Annie left when she was just a kid, too young to have left pregnant.[/quote]

    How do you know she left when she was just a kid?

  254. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="313998"]Funny thought….Remember when Vincent found that arm in the jungle and came out with it in his mouth. Was that Montand arm? I think so[/quote]

    No it was Ben’s dad’s arm. Skelator AKA Roger Workman.

  255. Tooks says:

    Quick question: where are the children? We know some survived the crash because Ana Lucia (?) said the others took all the kids. Pregnant women on the island do not live to deliver. Is this just a forgotten story line or am I crazy?

  256. Lar says:

    [quote comment="313985"][quote comment="313979"]

    I believe Locke was lying to Jin. Locke believes that they all have to go back but I do not think that is the case.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    I don’t think Locke lied to Jin. And I still believe that they ALL have to go back and they ALL will.[/quote]

    Just a thought…last week someone here threw out the theory that Locke was “becoming” the islands new Ben. Maybe this was just the start of him lying and manipulating people to get what he wants? I don’t know if I’m sold on this idea, but it’s something to consider.

  257. Laurie says:

    [quote comment="313838"][quote comment="313832"]
    Okay wait, when Charlotte was babbling from her past I think I heard her say “Why can’t Annie go with us?” That would confirm her story that she left the island as a child and wanted Annie to go with her. So how does this add up?[/quote]
    Nice cathc Hammer. I think that would rule out Annie being her mom. How about Charlotte Goodspeed?[/quote]

    +++++++++++++++++

    She said Daddy, “why can’t Daddy come with us?”

  258. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="314001"][quote comment="313996"]
    – I don’t think Charlotte is Annie- she and Ben would have recognized/ remembered each other. Also don’t see how she could be their daughter. Annie left when she was just a kid, too young to have left pregnant.[/quote]

    How do you know she left when she was just a kid?[/quote]
    ___________________
    I guess I meant more that Annie would be too young to be Charlotte’s mom. Ben was born in the early 60’s and Annie was a couple of years younger than him- born in the mid- to late 60’s. If she was Charlotte’s mom, she would have had her at a very young age (Char was born in 79).

  259. perrier says:

    Has anyone mentioned that Jin found 2 dead Jacks lying next to each other? I could not find any mention on this board of this point yet. Jack must be coming back to the island more than once and ends up getting killed more than once. How does that work!

  260. EM says:

    Any ideas about why Charlotte knew Korean and why she tried to hide it at first?

  261. Eric says:

    Christian seemed sinister. I think Locke may be in the midst of more manipulation. This is his pattern.

    I can’t wait to see what Claire is up to, and what Christian said to her to get her to part with Aaron.

  262. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="313975"]Charlotte said she loved Geronimo jackson, a I believe fake band that Hurley made reference to in season 2. He said something to charlie about going to the hatch they’ve got geronimo jackson record down there or something.[/quote]

    I think teenage Locke had a GJ poster in his locker, too.

    : ) P

  263. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="313982"]I haven’t seen this mentioned here yet. A lot of thoughts posted on earlier episodes suggested that the time travelers cannot change the future through their actions. But on last nights episode, we see Jin convincing Danielle Rousseau not to enter Smokey’s hole with the guys. Had he not been there, she would’ve gone down the hole with the rest of them. Because she did not go down the hole, she ends up shooting all of them. Isn’t this evidence that the time travelers do change the future? Danielle Rousseau in 2004 would not have had the story she told, were it not for Jin keeping her out of Smokey’s hole in 1988.[/quote]
    I don’t think there was any changing of the future. IMHO, there is only one version of events that took place in 1988, and those events always involved a time-travelling Jin arriving on the island and stopping Rousseau from going down the hole.

  264. i need answers says:

    I have a few things i need some help answering here…first off is if older Danielle Rousseau has met Jin before in previous seasons…why then didnt she flip out..cause it hasn’t happened yet? but kinda has…like desmond and Faradays interaction?…..the thing that gets me with these loop theries is that although when Jin and Older Rousseau met it hadn’t happend yet…but it did..it was in the past..her crew was dead..and those accounts must have happened…right?
    and secondly where in the world did walt go? wasnt he like the Gifted kid that made birds fly into a window and was creepin all over the Island showin up as apparitions and stuff where does he tie in with anything now…and who is Christian..i know hes jack and claire’s dad (and possibly) someone elses…but..who is this guy…what makes this alcoholic doctor so connected with this magical island….come on hammer…i need answers

  265. shah says:

    I just starting watching Lost a week ago and I am sooooo HOOKED!!! It’s the best show in the world! But that Ben…ooooo he bugs me. So cryptic and full of lies this guy is.

    Really, can he be trusted? Poor Sun, Jack and Aaron’s “New Mom”. They may have stepped in something really awful this week.

    Please tell me everything about this Ben character. He even LOOKS shady to me.

  266. Eric says:

    Time to throw down the Gauntlet…reputation on the line…simple question with less than two seasons remaining:

    Is Ben really “one of the good guys?”

    Yes or No?

    Rita? PJ? Hammer? Miraks? Others? Go on record with a call.

  267. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="314018"]I just starting watching Lost a week ago and I am sooooo HOOKED!!! It’s the best show in the world! But that Ben…ooooo he bugs me. So cryptic and full of lies this guy is.

    Really, can he be trusted? Poor Sun, Jack and Aaron’s “New Mom”. They may have stepped in something really awful this week.

    Please tell me everything about this Ben character. He even LOOKS shady to me.[/quote]

    WHoa! Glad you are hooked now!! There is no way to explain Ben. You should go watch it from the VERY beginning. ABC.com has free episodes! Good Luck!

  268. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314009"]Has anyone mentioned that Jin found 2 dead Jacks lying next to each other? I could not find any mention on this board of this point yet. Jack must be coming back to the island more than once and ends up getting killed more than once. How does that work![/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    Those weren’t two Jacks those were the French crew.

  269. BaileyLovesLost says:

    [quote comment="314009"]Has anyone mentioned that Jin found 2 dead Jacks lying next to each other? I could not find any mention on this board of this point yet. Jack must be coming back to the island more than once and ends up getting killed more than once. How does that work![/quote]
    *******************************
    Those weren’t dead Jacks, those were dead French guys from her crew.

  270. duke says:

    [quote comment="313920"]So we all figured out I hope that faradays mother; elouse is Ellie from the 1950s and I bet whitmore is his father[/quote]
    We did not learn that Ellie form the 1950’s is Ms. Hawking. We also did not learn for sure that Ms. Hawking is Dan’s mother, although that is probably the case. But I am not so sure that Ellie from the 50’s is that same woman just yet.

  271. Laurie says:

    [quote comment="313982"]I haven’t seen this mentioned here yet. A lot of thoughts posted on earlier episodes suggested that the time travelers cannot change the future through their actions. But on last nights episode, we see Jin convincing Danielle Rousseau not to enter Smokey’s hole with the guys. Had he not been there, she would’ve gone down the hole with the rest of them. Because she did not go down the hole, she ends up shooting all of them. Isn’t this evidence that the time travelers do change the future? Danielle Rousseau in 2004 would not have had the story she told, were it not for Jin keeping her out of Smokey’s hole in 1988.[/quote]
    ************************88

    That’s because everything that is happening in the past has already happened that way before. They’re not changing anything, they’re doing the things that need to be done to make the future (or present) the way it is. The only exception in Desmond. This is “The Time Traveler’s Wife” theory of time travel, not “Back to the Future” time travel theory.

  272. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314020"]Time to throw down the Gauntlet…reputation on the line…simple question with less than two seasons remaining:

    Is Ben really “one of the good guys?”

    Yes or No?

    Rita? PJ? Hammer? Miraks? Others? Go on record with a call.[/quote]

    I pick up your gauntlet and slap you across the face with it! LOL

    Truth is that one of the underlying themes of LOST is how gray “good” and “bad” really are. Kate, Sawyer, Jin, Sun, Sayid, Locke, even Hurley – they have all done some really BAD stuff. Yet, by the most part we consider them good guys. They are our collective protagonist.

    So then we get to Ben. We haven’t fully uncovered his motives. We cannot trust a thing he says. But is he any “worse” than any of our “good” guys? He is highly manipulative, he’s killed, clearly he is excellent at fabricating stories. But does any of this make him “bad” really? Not compared with any of the others.

    So then we look at the characters’ self-assessments. Each of them, I think, felt they only did what they HAD to do – even if other people do not agree. Are Ben’s “evil” actions done for any reason OTHER than altruistic? We may have to wait for May 2010 to know for sure.

    So while I wouldn’t swear to it in a court of law, I will say that I believe that ultimately, Ben is one of the “good” guys.

    : ) P

  273. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314016"]I have a few things i need some help answering here…first off is if older Danielle Rousseau has met Jin before in previous seasons…why then didnt she flip out..cause it hasn’t happened yet? but kinda has…like desmond and Faradays interaction?…..the thing that gets me with these loop theries is that although when Jin and Older Rousseau met it hadn’t happend yet…but it did..it was in the past..her crew was dead..and those accounts must have happened…right?
    and secondly where in the world did walt go? wasnt he like the Gifted kid that made birds fly into a window and was creepin all over the Island showin up as apparitions and stuff where does he tie in with anything now…and who is Christian..i know hes jack and claire’s dad (and possibly) someone elses…but..who is this guy…what makes this alcoholic doctor so connected with this magical island….come on hammer…i need answers[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    I’ve given my opinion on all of these several times….so I’m not sure how I can help.

  274. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314018"]I just starting watching Lost a week ago and I am sooooo HOOKED!!! It’s the best show in the world! But that Ben…ooooo he bugs me. So cryptic and full of lies this guy is.

    Really, can he be trusted? Poor Sun, Jack and Aaron’s “New Mom”. They may have stepped in something really awful this week.

    Please tell me everything about this Ben character. He even LOOKS shady to me.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    Go to lostpedia.com and search for Ben, you’ll get more than you want. :)

  275. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314020"]Time to throw down the Gauntlet…reputation on the line…simple question with less than two seasons remaining:

    Is Ben really “one of the good guys?”

    Yes or No?

    Rita? PJ? Hammer? Miraks? Others? Go on record with a call.[/quote]
    We don’t have enough info to know. But I believe that Ben believes he is a good guy. He stopped DHARMA from ‘exploiting’ the island.

    What about you? Money where you mouth is?

  276. duke says:

    [quote comment="313929"]I’ve decided that I’m giving up on the constants just yet. I think Sawyer had the nose bleed because even though he ‘saw’ Kate, he didn’t interact with her. Des grounded himself by interacting with Penny. Locke interacted with several folks. Jin interacted with Danielle. Dan interacted with Des (and we know from Dan’s notebook that Des is his constatnt). But Juliette, Miles, Char, Sawyer didn’t.[/quote]
    I think the constants are somewhat overthought. We only know for sure that Desmond needed a constant and she was in present time. I do not think what Desmond experienced and what the others are experiencing is the same thing. Meaning Sawyer, if in fact constants can stop td, could not have used Kate because he was in the past. Dan’s time travelling rat was based on sending it’s conscious mind travelling not the entire thing. He used radiation to send the rat through time and jughead was a nuke (radiation bomb). There has to be a connection.

  277. duke says:

    Also, maybe Dan has time travelled before causing him to build up a tolerance to td. We did not even learn the term temporal displacement until this year. Was it the same thing that Desmond and some of the freighter folks experienced?

  278. The Wrz says:

    [quote comment="314029"][quote comment="314016"]I have a few things i need some help answering here…first off is if older Danielle Rousseau has met Jin before in previous seasons…why then didnt she flip out..cause it hasn’t happened yet? but kinda has…like desmond and Faradays interaction?…..the thing that gets me with these loop theries is that although when Jin and Older Rousseau met it hadn’t happend yet…but it did..it was in the past..her crew was dead..and those accounts must have happened…right?
    and secondly where in the world did walt go? wasnt he like the Gifted kid that made birds fly into a window and was creepin all over the Island showin up as apparitions and stuff where does he tie in with anything now…and who is Christian..i know hes jack and claire’s dad (and possibly) someone elses…but..who is this guy…what makes this alcoholic doctor so connected with this magical island….come on hammer…i need answers[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    I’ve given my opinion on all of these several times….so I’m not sure how I can help.[/quote]

    ~~~~~~
    I will give it a shot
    Yes.
    Walt is back with his grandmother in the US.
    Christian (i think) is the human form that Jacob took so he can talk to people. Jacob assumed his dead body on the island.
    How does that sound Hammer?

  279. i need answers says:

    what about rousseau already meeting Jin…and later on (like seasons 1 &2) she doesnt say anything about it….”That’s because everything that is happening in the past has already happened that way before. They’re not changing anything, they’re doing the things that need to be done to make the future (or present) the way it is. The only exception in Desmond. This is “The Time Traveler’s Wife” theory of time travel, not “Back to the Future” time travel theory.”—in this theory would rouseau remember Jin since it already happened?

  280. Laurie says:

    [quote comment="313993"]Great episode. Great theories above. My biggest issue. Have we seen anyone eat anything since the time-jumps started? Time travel must be like “Red Bull” – it gives you wings. That’s why they all have nosebleeds. Ten time jumps (reb bulls) – no food.

    Seriously, with Smokey running around eating French food in 1988… had the sonic fence been constructed yet? If that was the true “temple” and it had the ‘cerberus vent’ (Smokey’s doghouse) underneath it – that means that when the Others vacated the barracks… they were headed for what – protection BY Smokey?[/quote]

    ********************************

    I’ve been wondering about that, where are the others? Are they jumping around in time as well? I think I remember Ben saying something about them going somewhere, maybe the temple, where they would be safe. Does being in the temple somehow prevent them from being tossed around in time?

  281. duke says:

    [quote comment="313939"][quote comment="313934"]I’m not quite following the comments about “the temple”. (e.g Hammer in #109, RGS in #155)

    People seem to be saying that the area around Smokey’s hole is the temple – is that correct?

    Do we know for certain this is the case? I just thought the hole was Smokey’s home. I know Robert said something about the security system for the temple, but I didn’t take that to mean Smokey’s hole is the temple. I thought the temple could be elsewhere on the island.

    And regarding smokey and hole – did Montand ever come out of the hole? We saw two dead bodies on the beach, and then Robert got killed. But all those guys went down into the hole, yet somehow they came back? Without Montand? So what exactly happened to Montand?[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Well we don’t know for sure. But I tried to put things together. Remember the passage way that Ben used to summon Smokey to attack Keamy’s group? It seemed to resemble the Temple. So assuming that Smokey hangs out in a tunnel system and the system has an entrance by that ‘building’ I am guessing that the ‘security system’ for the Temple would be very close to the Temple. And Robert told that to us in so many words. No?[/quote]
    Also, didn’t Ben send his people (Richard et al) to the temple saying that they would “be safe” there when freighter folk were coming.

  282. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314034"][quote comment="314029"][quote comment="314016"]I have a few things i need some help answering here…first off is if older Danielle Rousseau has met Jin before in previous seasons…why then didnt she flip out..cause it hasn’t happened yet? but kinda has…like desmond and Faradays interaction?…..the thing that gets me with these loop theries is that although when Jin and Older Rousseau met it hadn’t happend yet…but it did..it was in the past..her crew was dead..and those accounts must have happened…right?
    and secondly where in the world did walt go? wasnt he like the Gifted kid that made birds fly into a window and was creepin all over the Island showin up as apparitions and stuff where does he tie in with anything now…and who is Christian..i know hes jack and claire’s dad (and possibly) someone elses…but..who is this guy…what makes this alcoholic doctor so connected with this magical island….come on hammer…i need answers[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    I’ve given my opinion on all of these several times….so I’m not sure how I can help.[/quote]

    ~~~~~~
    I will give it a shot
    Yes.
    Walt is back with his grandmother in the US.
    Christian (i think) is the human form that Jacob took so he can talk to people. Jacob assumed his dead body on the island.
    How does that sound Hammer?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Alright, that’s good, but here’s mine”

    Yes, it hasn’t happened yet…not the same as Des/Dan. She doesn’t recogize him because this is the first and only time Jin visited her in the past….no loop.

    Walt is at home with g-ma and since Locke visited him, his story is not yet over.

    Christian is reincarnated and Locke will be too…Christian is not Jacob. No idea yet his connection to the island.

    HTH.

  283. K.C. says:

    I wonder if Locke will be back in his wheelchair once he gets off the island?

    Also , Daniel seems to have a very deep attachment to Charlotte, and I remember a post at one time wondering if he’s her father and I think that seems a strong possibility.

  284. Eric says:

    I think Ben is one of those people with intent to do “good.” I think he feels his actions are justified and necessary to acheive a collective “good.”

    After last night’s episode, I’m wondering if Jacob (or Jacob’s contact set–Christian included) is “bad.” Something Ben recognizes. I listened to Christian in the cave with Locke a few times, and the verbal and nonverbal indicated something more than a benevolent leader upset with an underling disobeying an order “I told YOU to move the island John.”

    Ben shot Locke after taking him to the cabin to see Jacob. We hear someone (who we assume is Jacob) saying “Help me.” With Ben present it’s reasonable to assume he’s at odds with Jacob. At first I assumed it was a twisted jealousy that led him to shoot John. Now I think it shows that Jacob and Ben are in different camps.

    I don’t know Ben’s ultimate motivation, but I think he’s “good.”

    Last point–I think Walt is in Ben’s mind the one Jacob promised would come. Jacob/Christian and to an extent Richard have placed their chips with Locke. I think Ben has a different view.

  285. DocH says:

    Is Ben really “one of the good guys”? Yes or No?
    I will stick it out there.
    A year ago – NO.
    Now, and until the final minute of the final episode – YES.
    Ben really is one of the good guys. This is how the writers get their jollies. Making us hate the best written character on TV, and then making us have to respect him.

  286. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314036"][quote comment="313993"]Great episode. Great theories above. My biggest issue. Have we seen anyone eat anything since the time-jumps started? Time travel must be like “Red Bull” – it gives you wings. That’s why they all have nosebleeds. Ten time jumps (reb bulls) – no food.

    Seriously, with Smokey running around eating French food in 1988… had the sonic fence been constructed yet? If that was the true “temple” and it had the ‘cerberus vent’ (Smokey’s doghouse) underneath it – that means that when the Others vacated the barracks… they were headed for what – protection BY Smokey?[/quote]

    ********************************

    I’ve been wondering about that, where are the others? Are they jumping around in time as well? I think I remember Ben saying something about them going somewhere, maybe the temple, where they would be safe. Does being in the temple somehow prevent them from being tossed around in time?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    That’s a possible explanation. The only thing I am confident of is that the group we saw skipping has been separated from the true Others. They are not skipping together.

  287. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="314020"]Time to throw down the Gauntlet…reputation on the line…simple question with less than two seasons remaining:

    Is Ben really “one of the good guys?”

    Yes or No?

    Rita? PJ? Hammer? Miraks? Others? Go on record with a call.[/quote]

    I think Ben is the good guy- as far as dedication to the island is concerned. He has been manipulative very often, but he is pretty honest about it. He does not get innocent people killed if he can avoid it and has his own “moral code” that he follows. IF the story was told from the viewpoint of the Others and we saw our Losties and their background stories from that point of view, I’m pretty sure THEY would be considered the bad guys.

  288. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="313978"][quote comment="313964"][quote comment="313774"]So Ben did it wrong and left the wheel loose?[/quote]
    I didn’t see this followed upon, but maybe you already figured this out. I don’t think it was Ben who left it loose. It appears that the date that Locke turns the wheel is before the Orchid station was built, and therefore before Ben turned the wheel.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Well let’s remember that the island is not necessarily traveling in time…it’s the Losties that are skipping. The wheel is loose because it’s loose, not only loose in a certain time that the Losties are in.[/quote]
    ______________________________________
    Actually, Dan said it’s probably both. We don’t know for sure. When Ben moved the island, the island could have moved three years into the future right then. Thus, making the time differentiation between on-island and off-island losties in-line with one another.

  289. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314041"]I think Ben is one of those people with intent to do “good.” I think he feels his actions are justified and necessary to acheive a collective “good.”

    After last night’s episode, I’m wondering if Jacob (or Jacob’s contact set–Christian included) is “bad.” Something Ben recognizes. I listened to Christian in the cave with Locke a few times, and the verbal and nonverbal indicated something more than a benevolent leader upset with an underling disobeying an order “I told YOU to move the island John.”

    Ben shot Locke after taking him to the cabin to see Jacob. We hear someone (who we assume is Jacob) saying “Help me.” With Ben present it’s reasonable to assume he’s at odds with Jacob. At first I assumed it was a twisted jealousy that led him to shoot John. Now I think it shows that Jacob and Ben are in different camps.

    I don’t know Ben’s ultimate motivation, but I think he’s “good.”

    Last point–I think Walt is in Ben’s mind the one Jacob promised would come. Jacob/Christian and to an extent Richard have placed their chips with Locke. I think Ben has a different view.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Okay. Now that you have I will. Yes, Ben is on side of good and not evil….I hope. :)

    Your side note about Walt…I disagree, Ben wouldn’t have sent Walt packing if he were the ‘one’. JMO.

  290. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="313990"][quote comment="313987"]Did I miss something obvious? Why was Sayid mad at Jack? I get something happened that he doesn’t trust Ben, but Sayid seemed equally annoyed at Jack in the end of TPID.[/quote]
    ++++++++
    Jack support Ben and them all going back, that’s all Sayid needs.[/quote]
    ___________________________________
    It bothers me that Sayid walked away. I mean, where’s this guy going to go? From Ben’s assassin to fry guy at Burger King? With the love of his life dead what does he have to go back to anyway? He should just go back to the island because he has nothing better to do. I would.

  291. Laurie says:

    [quote comment="314035"]what about rousseau already meeting Jin…and later on (like seasons 1 &2) she doesnt say anything about it….”That’s because everything that is happening in the past has already happened that way before. They’re not changing anything, they’re doing the things that need to be done to make the future (or present) the way it is. The only exception in Desmond. This is “The Time Traveler’s Wife” theory of time travel, not “Back to the Future” time travel theory.”—in this theory would rouseau remember Jin since it already happened?[/quote]

    ***************************

    I agree, she should remember him. Maybe the writers hadn’t worked out all these details back when her character was first introduced. Maybe it can be explained away by saying 16+ years had gone by, she’s traumatized by what’s she’s been through and maybe a little (or a lot) crazy, so she just didn’t recognize him.

  292. duke says:

    [quote comment="313985"][quote comment="313979"]

    I believe Locke was lying to Jin. Locke believes that they all have to go back but I do not think that is the case.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    I don’t think Locke lied to Jin. And I still believe that they ALL have to go back and they ALL will.[/quote]
    We will have to agree to disagree. Locke has done whatever necessary to perform what he believes is his destiny. He absolutely would have lied and probably used the ring the same way that Ben does to convince them to go back. I will go on record as saying that not ALL of them have to go back. I”ll guess that Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Ben do return but other than that we will have to wait and see.

  293. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="314020"]Time to throw down the Gauntlet…reputation on the line…simple question with less than two seasons remaining:

    Is Ben really “one of the good guys?”

    Yes or No?

    Rita? PJ? Hammer? Miraks? Others? Go on record with a call.[/quote]
    _________________________________________
    Ben is a little whiny baby that wants his mommy back. I believe all his motives are self serving. He doesn’t deserve to be island keeper because he isn’t truly worthy. He can’t hold John’s jock when it comes to being a “good guy”.

  294. duke says:

    [quote comment="313988"]I’m with you Hammer, Locke didn’t lie to Jin because he most likely never talked to Sun. He gave Jin’s ring to Ben who gave it to Sun.[/quote]
    I said he would have lied to her to convince her to return because he believes it is their destiny to be on the island. He thinks he is carrying out some great mission and will do/would do whatever necessary to get them to return, even die.

  295. duke says:

    [quote comment="313993"]Great episode. Great theories above. My biggest issue. Have we seen anyone eat anything since the time-jumps started? Time travel must be like “Red Bull” – it gives you wings. That’s why they all have nosebleeds. Ten time jumps (reb bulls) – no food.

    Seriously, with Smokey running around eating French food in 1988… had the sonic fence been constructed yet? If that was the true “temple” and it had the ‘cerberus vent’ (Smokey’s doghouse) underneath it – that means that when the Others vacated the barracks… they were headed for what – protection BY Smokey?[/quote]
    We do not know how long the people on the island have skipping. I theorize that they have only been skipping for a day or two.

  296. K.C. says:

    Ben is good. Whidmore is bad.

    Dharma Initiative is Whidmore’s group. He has used the islands special properties it make himself rich. The Hostiles are there to protect the island and later become the Others, probably with the help of those on the island who go back in time. Kind of sounds Republican vs Democrat, huh? So Ben is the Nancy Pelosi of the show. Whidmore is Dick Cheney.

    Jacob is the spirit of the island.and can manifest in dfferent ways: appearances of familiar people, smoke monsters, etc.

  297. i need answers says:

    Ben got very Emo this year…hes such a good character…as far as good or bad guy…i liked the comment that the Island totally shows shades of gray to whats good or bad…very true..everyone has shown thier bad sides or done bad things..so i guess if i had to pick…hes a good bad guy and a bad good guy…but i dont think you can call him “good” or “bad” because we dont know his real motives..he did assist in the mass killing of the Dharma…anytime you kill that many people i dont know how “good” you can be

  298. Eric says:

    I think John wants to be good. The intent is there. But he has all this backstory info showing how his actions don’t match his intent. He looked like a child recognizing the error of his ways when Christian spoke to him. We’ve seen this from him often. I just think he’s on the wrong side, or that we haven’t seen John Locke looking/acting with an evolved perspective.

    Maybe the backstory showing us the transition from Locke to Bentham.

    Bentham was one of the small group who forwarded the idea that the moral worth of an action is determined solely by its contribution to overall utility. Doesn’t Ben now best fit a person following this code? John must get on board fully. He must finally end others’ manipulations of his actions for their purposes. He must let go of the knife, and truly act as “one of the good guys.”

    I envision a scene between Ben and John where Ben submits to John.

  299. The Wrz says:

    [quote comment="314050"][quote comment="313985"][quote comment="313979"]

    I believe Locke was lying to Jin. Locke believes that they all have to go back but I do not think that is the case.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    I don’t think Locke lied to Jin. And I still believe that they ALL have to go back and they ALL will.[/quote]
    We will have to agree to disagree. Locke has done whatever necessary to perform what he believes is his destiny. He absolutely would have lied and probably used the ring the same way that Ben does to convince them to go back. I will go on record as saying that not ALL of them have to go back. I”ll guess that Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Ben do return but other than that we will have to wait and see.[/quote]

    ~~~~~
    I think Ben found locke and somehow got Locke in the coffin(not sure if he killed him or what)after Locke told Ben what he knows. Then Ben used that info to coax the O6 to come back. I imagine Locke showed him the ring to prove that Jin is dead, but if he is dead than Sun will have no reason to go back. Ben knows that he must find reasons for everyone to want to go back. Ben looks out for himself. Locke always has good intentions but they always backfire. I am surprised he didn’t try to blow the wheel up, like he does with everything else important on the island

  300. Lar says:

    Okay, a few things that I’ve been having trouble with (sorry if it’s off topic)Ben seems to know quitea bit about the island and the Losties/O6 relationship to it, but here are my questions:
    If he indeed knows they need to stay on the island, why did he let Kate, Sayid and someone else (Hurley?) leave on the helicopter after Alpert shot Keamy last season? Along those same lines, why would he kill Keamy knowing he would also be killing everyone on the tanker? What if some of the people who are “important” to the island are on the tanker?

  301. The Wrz says:

    Can someone tell me any of the good things Ben has done, that aren’t self serving?

  302. DocH says:

    …we do not know how long the people on the island have [been] skipping. I theorize that they have only been skipping for a day or two.
    I completely concur. In fact, I think the off-islanders have lived their “3 years” while the “time skippers” are merely living the ’70 hours’ referenced by voodoo math priestess Hawking.

  303. Jaime says:

    Regarding the wheel chamber that Locke fell in to… it was interesting how they shot it. It seemed to be a reversal of the chamber that Ben was in – almost a mirror image – as if instead of it being the same chamber, we were looking at what was on the other side of Ben’s donkey wheel. .

    Check out Ben’s face when he sees Desmond outside of the church- it’s like a light bulb suddenly goes off in his head. As the one person who can change things, Desmond instantly becomes plan B. Three years of coordination and effort, and Ben’s only 2 for 6. But with Desmond going back to the island, maybe that doesn’t even matter. Ben looks completely astounded to see him. I think this marks the first time Ben even speaks to Desmond. And as he brings him in to see Hawking, Desmond suddenly becomes their ace in the hole.

    Remember when Rousseau totally freaked out when she saw Jin again on the beach? ”I saw you disappear!”
    In her shock, I saw a simple answer to the time travel noodle-cooker that many of you have been puzzling over since last week, Did the French Lady recognize Jin when she first met the castaways in Season 1? The answer could very well be: Does it matter? For Rousseau, Reappearing Jin was one more scary, inexplicable thing in a scary, inexplicable situation that was about to become a way of life. By the time their lives intersected once more in her future timeline, seeing Jin again (if she even recognized him), the significance probably just bounced off her. ”Oh. You again. Whatever.”

  304. i need answers says:

    [quote comment="314063"]Regarding the wheel chamber that Locke fell in to… it was interesting how they shot it. It seemed to be a reversal of the chamber that Ben was in – almost a mirror image – as if instead of it being the same chamber, we were looking at what was on the other side of Ben’s donkey wheel. .

    Check out Ben’s face when he sees Desmond outside of the church- it’s like a light bulb suddenly goes off in his head. As the one person who can change things, Desmond instantly becomes plan B. Three years of coordination and effort, and Ben’s only 2 for 6. But with Desmond going back to the island, maybe that doesn’t even matter. Ben looks completely astounded to see him. I think this marks the first time Ben even speaks to Desmond. And as he brings him in to see Hawking, Desmond suddenly becomes their ace in the hole.

    Remember when Rousseau totally freaked out when she saw Jin again on the beach? ”I saw you disappear!”
    In her shock, I saw a simple answer to the time travel noodle-cooker that many of you have been puzzling over since last week, Did the French Lady recognize Jin when she first met the castaways in Season 1? The answer could very well be: Does it matter? For Rousseau, Reappearing Jin was one more scary, inexplicable thing in a scary, inexplicable situation that was about to become a way of life. By the time their lives intersected once more in her future timeline, seeing Jin again (if she even recognized him), the significance probably just bounced off her. ”Oh. You again. Whatever.”[/quote]
    that is kind of a cop out to what is more than likely a slip up in the many different elements of this plot..i bet the writers just missed it..they cant be perfect

    i love that locke and ben are depicted on mirror images at the Donkey wheel

  305. Smokin.... says:

    [quote comment="314054"]Ben is good. Whidmore is bad.

    Dharma Initiative is Whidmore’s group. He has used the islands special properties it make himself rich. The Hostiles are there to protect the island and later become the Others, probably with the help of those on the island who go back in time. Kind of sounds Republican vs Democrat, huh? So Ben is the Nancy Pelosi of the show. Whidmore is Dick Cheney.

    Jacob is the spirit of the island.and can manifest in dfferent ways: appearances of familiar people, smoke monsters, etc.[/quote]
    ============================================

    I see the Smoke Monster more as Dick Cheney.

  306. Jaime says:

    Something i just read quoted from Executive Producers Damon Lindelof & Carlton Cuse as they rehash This Place Is Death

    * The ‘temple’ seen in ‘This Place is Death’ is “not necessarily THE temple” and isn’t where the smoke monster lives but rather his ‘Camp David’.

  307. i need answers says:

    Could Desmond be Charles Widmore’s Father?…his son Charlie…now Des obviously as he so clearly stated he didnt ever want to go back to the Island..(foreshadow) but what if penny and baby charlie go back too..and then somehow are sent to the past and Thats how Widmore got to the Island and became a hostile with richard…could also explain Widmores hatred for Desmond..cause Des never really did anything to be looked down upon so much by widmore….
    oh ya….where is Rose? and the dog?

  308. RGS says:

    I agree Charlotte is not Ben’s daughter.
    I don’t think Robert was shooting in self defense, BUT I love the “enlightened” theory, is it consistent with Rouseau’s original story? I thought that the sickness was taking place over the course of a few days or weeks. Also if they were enlightened why would they forcibly try to enlighten Danielle (assuming force because she felt the need to carry her rifle) especially if she’s preggo, and may be someone they need.

    Encylo. theory is definitely harder to swallow with the Charlotte memory reveal of the Dan warning to her, as he didn’t remember, because it hadn’t ‘happened’ yet. It does however bring me back to that Slaughterhouse 5 theory that Time is that 4th dimension, and everything has already happened.

    Re: Constants, if it is true that these constants are needed, shouldn’t they be needed for EVERY time jump? So because you meet up with a constant in one time period, it prevents one’s mind from becoming disoriented again in another period?

    I am not sure of what would prevent Ms. Hawkings from working against Widmore, regardless of relationship status…things change. Maybe she realizes Charles is up to no good etc. Maybe she is being manipulated by Ben’s predominately evil arse. (I’m siding with Brother/Sis relationship).

    Lol, you guys come up with some incredible theories that are probably more right than wrong, but I am going to go ahead and state anyone thinking Ben is a protagonist in any way, is a fool! He may be the lesser of 2 evils (Widmore and he) but he’s not out to help Jack & co. unless it helps him.

  309. pandakim says:

    [quote comment="313890"][quote comment="313880"]

    I am sure this has been discussed before- i’m just now checking out this blog this year-sorry in advance. i am sure Charlotte was the baby in the season 5 opener, “Because you Left” with Dr. Chang. So, doubtful Ben is her biological father. I’m not sure how old Ben was at that time-braindead. Maybe Charles Widmore is her father-I think someone else mentioned this. But why did Dr. Chang and his wife have her? has this been answered on previous blogs???[/quote]

    i think we’ve come to the conclusion that its is Miles not Charlotte in the opener with Marvin Candle, Charlottes dad I think will be either Widmore, Alpert or Ben, good posts everyone, I too hope that the flashes will have stopped for now and the reason the O6 are going back isn’t to stop the time flashes, that has never seemed very substantial to me. Anyone else thinking that it is possible some of the island losties may run into Henry Gale at some point? we can only hope[/quote]

    OK, I’ll have to go back and find those discussions but the baby in the season 5 opener was clearly white and Charlotte can speak Korean. Which led me to believe she was the baby with Marvin Candle/Dr. Chang/etc. I don’t understand why it is assumed Miles was the baby but I’ll go back and read the posts. thanks.

  310. Eric says:

    To The WRZ:

    To the real Jeremy Bentham, Ben’s actions (if in fact he is working to “save the world”) would be seen as morally good. Killing individuals is not a concern to a being driven by a philosophical code of Utility, or a “greatest good principle.”

    So now this is where it gets interesting for me:

    Bentham lived and wrote extensively during the Jacobin Terror” He thought the “natural rights” supported by folks like John Locke were compatible only with the “order of chaos.”

    More interesting still is that Bentham initially supported the Jacobins. Initially supported Jacob-ins. Jacob-Ben. Then opposed him. Became part of “scared opposition.”

    Ben beat him to it. Understood that natural rigts, encouraging mankind to seize hold of something of worth–the island–for individual gain–was morally reprehensible.

    Our John Locke morphing into Bentham might mark the point at which Locke truly joins the “good guys.”

    For now I’m sorting this way:
    Good guys–Ben, Richard, Others
    Bad Guys–Jacob, Locke (for now), Dharma, Widmore

  311. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314067"]Could Desmond be Charles Widmore’s Father?…his son Charlie…now Des obviously as he so clearly stated he didnt ever want to go back to the Island..(foreshadow) but what if penny and baby charlie go back too..and then somehow are sent to the past and Thats how Widmore got to the Island and became a hostile with richard…could also explain Widmores hatred for Desmond..cause Des never really did anything to be looked down upon so much by widmore….
    oh ya….where is Rose? and the dog?[/quote]
    ===========
    Ummm how could Penny be Charlie’s daughter and mother?

  312. RGS says:

    And by fool I do mean it in a playful way, but fool nonetheless, so I am also throwing down a gauntlet of sorts.

  313. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314069"]… but I am going to go ahead and state anyone thinking Ben is a protagonist in any way, is a fool! He may be the lesser of 2 evils (Widmore and he) but he’s not out to help Jack & co. unless it helps him.[/quote]
    I’m a fool then, I don’t think he as to be helping Jack et al to be a protagonist…he’s working toward what he believes is the ‘greater good’.

  314. Hurley's Dad says:

    I’ve been trying to rack my brain to remember, but how much interaction did Rousseau and Jin have pre-flash?

    Solitary was Sayid
    Numbers was Hurley
    Exodus’ was Charlie and Sayid
    Greatest hits – she blew up the tree and gave her gun…Jin was there for both.

    Is it possible she never had the opportunity to recognize him?

  315. ESB says:

    [quote comment="313803"]what is going on!!??? was anyone else sad that Charlotte died??[/quote]

    yeah, i was bummed about that…i liked the story between her and Faraday and i like that actress a lot…good thing on this show dead doesn’t mena we won’t see them again…;)

  316. i need answers says:

    Ummm how could Penny be Charlie’s daughter and mother?

    They go to the Island and their kid charlie gets somehow sent into the past..becomes a hostile..hes sex with Elle and gets her prego they have to leave to have the baby (penny) – possibly the one with the korean doctor..she grows up and meets desmond..has a baby..goes to the island and it happens again…no chance?

  317. i need answers says:

    then penny and faraday are bro and sis

  318. Amber says:

    I really like the theory of daniel being charlottes dad it could work. maybe her mom was the lady in the bed. hes been going through time trying out different ways to keep her from coming to the island. but she was suppose to die in the purge. course correction

  319. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314058"]If he indeed knows they need to stay on the island, why did he let Kate, Sayid and someone else (Hurley?) leave on the helicopter after Alpert shot Keamy last season? [/quote]

    I’ve thought about this, and the question as to why he let Walt leave. My guess is that he thought that if the island REALLY needed them to stay, that it would prevent them from leaving. Just like when Locke blew up the submarine.

    [quote comment="314058"]Along those same lines, why would he kill Keamy knowing he would also be killing everyone on the tanker? What if some of the people who are “important” to the island are on the tanker?[/quote]

    In this case, I don’t think Ben WAS thinking. I think he was too caught up in the grief and guilt that he let Alex die. But again, I expect that he also believed that if someone was SUPPOSED to live, the island would make sure that person did (Jin, for example). How many people have we seen survive the unsurvivable?

    : ) P

  320. Jaime says:

    [quote comment="314069"]
    I am not sure of what would prevent Ms. Hawkings from working against Widmore, regardless of relationship status…things change. Maybe she realizes Charles is up to no good etc. Maybe she is being manipulated by Ben’s predominately evil arse. (I’m siding with Brother/Sis relationship).[/quote]
    *********************************************************
    When Eloise learns Widmore intends to exploit the island, she turns to his nemesis, Ben, to protect it.

    Randon thoughts:

    1. When Lock turns the wheel, the chamber/wheel is no longer frozen. Could it be that he reason it was froze in the first place is because, like the C4 on the boat, if it’s unstable and set to go off, the way to stabilize it is to freeze it? When Daniel is seen in the Orchid during Dharma time w/ Chang, he’s carrying what looks like an oxygen tank. But what if it’s actually liquid nitrogen – to freeze the area so he can safely drill through to the wheel?

    Drinking water from the well (if it was ever full in the first place) might have caused people like Richard (we don’t have any proof that he’s the only one) to never become old. OR The well was to “vent” the island’s energy. Since this vent was shut, it would build up and the Swan station was responsible for discharging that buildup.

  321. BaileyLovesLost says:

    There have been moments this season so far that made me really sad or really happy. When Sawyer saw Kate in the jungle, that was one that made me sad. When Sawyer found Jin in the jungle, that was one that made me really happy. Then in last night’s episode I was very sad when Locke was going down the well and the time flash came and Sawyer was trying to pull him. After they came out of the flash and Sawyer realized that the well was just the ground and the rope was sticking out of it, Sawyer was digging away at the ground to get Locke back like a Beagle trying to find his bone. It made me sad :-( Sawyer has really made a 180 degree change from when we first met him in S1.

    I don’t think Ben is a good guy. I want to, but there are just too many things that he’s done wrong. Getting lawyers to go after Kate to get blood samples from her and Aaron was so mean. And remember, Jin told Locke to give Sun his wedding band and tell her that he is dead because he doesn’t want her to come back. Don’t you think Locke might have told Ben this when they met? Why would Locke go against his promise to Jin? If Locke did give Ben the wedding band and told him to tell Sun that Jin is dead, then Ben giving it to Sun and using it to get her to go back to the island is so wrong on so many levels!

    Ben = bad guy in my books.

  322. Lar says:

    [quote comment="314080"][quote comment="314058"]If he indeed knows they need to stay on the island, why did he let Kate, Sayid and someone else (Hurley?) leave on the helicopter after Alpert shot Keamy last season? [/quote]

    I’ve thought about this, and the question as to why he let Walt leave. My guess is that he thought that if the island REALLY needed them to stay, that it would prevent them from leaving. Just like when Locke blew up the submarine.

    [quote comment="314058"]Along those same lines, why would he kill Keamy knowing he would also be killing everyone on the tanker? What if some of the people who are “important” to the island are on the tanker?[/quote]

    In this case, I don’t think Ben WAS thinking. I think he was too caught up in the grief and guilt that he let Alex die. But again, I expect that he also believed that if someone was SUPPOSED to live, the island would make sure that person did (Jin, for example). How many people have we seen survive the unsurvivable?

    : ) P[/quote]
    Okay, that does make sense. I think. ;) Thanks PJ!

  323. Amber says:

    so originally we think ben is a bad guy, now were kind of thinking he may be a good guy (which i want him to be) but i think the writters are setting it up that way so we start to think he is good. but in the end i think hes going to be a bad guy. I love his character

  324. Amber says:

    I feel like there has got to be some reason that charlotte knows korean, other than her just knowing it.

  325. Tillman says:

    Did anyone notice the small red star in the back of Jin’s shirt last night? It was very random, which leads me to think it must mean something. You can see it when he is drinking from that big leaf in the jungle. Thoughts?

  326. Mia says:

    I don’t think Ben is an “evil” person. He definately has done some bad things but they all have a reason behind them. Maybe it’s ultimately to protect all of mankind? And he had to make some human sacrifices along the way (the purge, etc)?

  327. LizS says:

    [quote comment="313881"]I think Faraday starts controlling his time travel at some point after the current timeline. He goes back to Dharma days and convinces Charlotte’s mom that she needs to leave with her daughter and tells Charlotte never to come back in an attempt to avoid her death. He doesn’t remember it because he hasn’t done it yet in his “real” timeline. Not sure if that fits the “rules” about time travel others have constructed here, but it makes sense to me =)[/quote]
    YES! That would fit the general rules that many on this blog have inferred. Which is just plain torture, isn’t it? He knows now he’s going to talk to her as a child, and warn her, and it won’t stop her from coming back to the island and dying–so, yeah, Daniel will be going a little nuts.

  328. Tasha says:

    I just dug up some info that the lost DVD’s have SECRET MENUS? Where have I been? Anyhow, off of one of those there is speculation that Horace and Olivia were part of Geronimo Jackson? Maybe this is why Charlotte loves them? Parents maybe? Anyhow, I am still in shock about this DVD thing. I am like the biggest freak out there about this show so guess I will be on my way to dig up secret menus…LOL

  329. The Wrz says:

    [quote comment="314071"]To The WRZ:

    To the real Jeremy Bentham, Ben’s actions (if in fact he is working to “save the world”) would be seen as morally good. Killing individuals is not a concern to a being driven by a philosophical code of Utility, or a “greatest good principle.”

    So now this is where it gets interesting for me:

    Bentham lived and wrote extensively during the Jacobin Terror” He thought the “natural rights” supported by folks like John Locke were compatible only with the “order of chaos.”

    More interesting still is that Bentham initially supported the Jacobins. Initially supported Jacob-ins. Jacob-Ben. Then opposed him. Became part of “scared opposition.”

    Ben beat him to it. Understood that natural rigts, encouraging mankind to seize hold of something of worth–the island–for individual gain–was morally reprehensible.

    Our John Locke morphing into Bentham might mark the point at which Locke truly joins the “good guys.”

    For now I’m sorting this way:
    Good guys–Ben, Richard, Others
    Bad Guys–Jacob, Locke (for now), Dharma, Widmore[/quote]

    ~~~~~~~
    And Ben is not trying to hold the island for his personal gain??? Ben’s greater good is his own personal gain. He was the leader and had the power. But then Richard(and Jacob) realizes that he does not deserve to be leader(like he probably does with Widmore) and helps Locke to “overthrow” ben. He turns the wheel instead of Locke, because he knew what would happen and that he could possibly come back and be leader again. He shows us how bad Widmore is, so we think that Widmore is evil. However they both want the same thing, control of the island.

    Side Note: My favorite part of the episode was when they are trying to explain time travel to Jin. I expected him to have one of those “the office” type moments where he looks at the camera.

  330. Tasker says:

    [quote comment="313858"][quote comment="313809"]Does Daniel’s mother freak anyone else out? She totally freaks me out…she reminds me of some dark magic, satan worshipper..[/quote]

    ++++

    Charlotte creeped me out when she was babbling. She truly looked possessed.[/quote]

    _______________________________________________
    Eloise’s face looks like a mix between an alien and a cartoon turtle.

  331. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="314091"]I feel like there has got to be some reason that charlotte knows korean, other than her just knowing it.[/quote]

    Anthropology is a study of culture and a lot more. To study culture and societies, I would think a good anthropologist would know several languages. Why Korean is one of them, not sure. I would think it would be hard to study a culture without understanding their language. So I would think she must have studied the Korean culture for some reason.

  332. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314096"][quote comment="313881"]I think Faraday starts controlling his time travel at some point after the current timeline. He goes back to Dharma days and convinces Charlotte’s mom that she needs to leave with her daughter and tells Charlotte never to come back in an attempt to avoid her death. He doesn’t remember it because he hasn’t done it yet in his “real” timeline. Not sure if that fits the “rules” about time travel others have constructed here, but it makes sense to me =)[/quote]
    YES! That would fit the general rules that many on this blog have inferred. Which is just plain torture, isn’t it? He knows now he’s going to talk to her as a child, and warn her, and it won’t stop her from coming back to the island and dying–so, yeah, Daniel will be going a little nuts.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    Well I disagree, but my theory is a little unpopular right now. I think they have hinted around enough that Dan has memory issues. I believe that he has already travelled and told Char to leave. He just doesn’t remember it.(Remember his caretaker flashback and the fact that he gains memory by reading his note book.)

    Everyone else in the story didn’t remember seeing the skippers because it had not happened yet. Now we are supposed to believe someone is having a memory of something that didn’t happen yet?

    I think he didn’t know that Ben was going to turn the wheel, but after it happened, he realized Char was in trouble and checked the note book, realized he COULD interact with Des (constant) and tried to get him to contact mom for help. To no avail because of course correction….she’s gone.

  333. The Wrz says:

    Was Faraday one of the workers in the cave when Candle ran in and told them to stop drilling?

  334. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314101"]Well I disagree, but my theory is a little unpopular right now. I think they have hinted around enough that Dan has memory issues. I believe that he has already travelled and told Char to leave. He just doesn’t remember it.(Remember his caretaker flashback and the fact that he gains memory by reading his note book.)

    Everyone else in the story didn’t remember seeing the skippers because it had not happened yet. Now we are supposed to believe someone is having a memory of something that didn’t happen yet?

    I think he didn’t know that Ben was going to turn the wheel, but after it happened, he realized Char was in trouble and checked the note book, realized he COULD interact with Des (constant) and tried to get him to contact mom for help. To no avail because of course correction….she’s gone.[/quote]

    So you are saying that Daniel has ALREADY time traveled to warn Charlotte, but that he doesn’t REMEMBER doing so? So maybe when we saw Daniel in the 70’s in S5E1, it was something that already happened as opposed to what WOULD happen eventually.

    Okay, I will buy it. Partially because it lets my encyclopedia analogy stand! LOL

    : ) P

  335. LizS says:

    [quote comment="313909"][quote comment="313905"][quote comment="313856"]
    So I think we will see this jump, which “to us” will happen AFTER Charlotte dies. We will see Faraday IN HIS PRESENT BODY visit little Charlotte and tell her NEVER to come back to the island. He is TRYING to change the future by changing the past. (Clearly, he will have been unsuccessful.)

    As I said, the fact that before she died, Charlotte had a memory of an incident that has not yet taken place, throws the encyclopedia and photoshop analogies out the window.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Struggling with that. That would have Dan attempting to REALLY change the past/future which he alreay knows will get course corrected if he did.

    I think she was having a memory of something that DID already happen. And her ending up on the island WAS the course correction because she should have died in the purge.[/quote]
    That is just so dark!!!

    What gets me about all this is the lack of true ability to affect ANYTHING–I mean, if we really go down this road all the way. WHY was Charlotte meant to die in the Purge? WHY did the Purge have to take place? An early manipulation of Ben the supreme egoist? WHO and WHAT did that serve, besides evil?

    WHY do so many people have to die, young, and for what seems like no good reason? Is it at the arbitrary whim of some island deity who needs a few sacrifices? Where is the purpose in all this?

    WHAT is this grim and dreadful and only occasionally a haven for SOME Island anyway? The belly of the world? The belly of the Beast?

    Maybe Madame Hawking will give us the scoop. Or maybe she’s setting up a few more meaningless sacrifices.

    Liz

  336. LizS says:

    And her ending up on the island WAS the course correction because she should have died in the purge.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++OOPS! Sorry, meant to separate my comments from Hammers, or PJs, or Newbies, lost track!!!-Liz
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++
    That is just so dark!!!

    What gets me about all this is the lack of true ability to affect ANYTHING–

  337. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314103][/quote]

    So you are saying that Daniel has ALREADY time traveled to warn Charlotte, but that he doesn’t REMEMBER doing so? So maybe when we saw Daniel in the 70’s in S5E1, it was something that already happened as opposed to what WOULD happen eventually.

    Okay, I will buy it. Partially because it lets my encyclopedia analogy stand! LOL

    : ) P[/quote]
    Yep, I hope this helps my cause:

    From S5E1:

    SAWYER: How do you know so much about this, Danny Boy?

    [Faraday removes his backpack and removes his journal from it.]

    FARADAY: [Sighs] I know about this because… I’ve spent my entire adult life studying space-time. I know all this because this journal contains everything I’ve ever learned about the DHARMA Initiative. This is why I’m here. I know what’s happening.

    AND LATER IN THE EPISODE:

    [Faraday sighs deeply, looking at Charlotte.]

    CHARLOTTE: What? Wh–what? What’s the matter?

    FARADAY: You… [sighs, signaling to her upper lip, which is dripping with blood from a nostril]

    CHARLOTTE: Ugh. I haven’t had a nosebleed since I was little. Dan, I’m fine.

    FARADAY: Yeah. No, no, no, you’re–um, of course you’re fine. I’m, uh… you know, the sight of blood is…

    CHARLOTTE: Yeah, well, it’s a good thing you’re a physicist then, isn’t it? Shall we?

    FARADAY: Yeah, um… my pack. Of course I left my pack back at the hatch crater. I better get it. Why don’t you head back with everyone else? And I’ll be right behind you.

    CHARLOTTE: Don’t dillydally.

    FARADAY: I wouldn’t think of it.

    [Charlotte chuckles. Faraday sighs. He runs for his pack, and extracts the journal, then quickly leafs through it.]

    [Moments later, Faraday bangs on the back door of the hatch.]

    FARADAY: [Whispering, and stepping back] Please let this work. Please let this work. Please, please, please, let this work.

  338. Tasker says:

    [quote comment="313943"][quote comment="313940"]Did anyone catch the homage to Austin Powers when after the french dude is pulled down into the temple by smokey, and his arm is torn off, he’s saying I’m down here but I’m ok.

    I know it was the “system” luring the others down but still.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Oh, that’s funny! “It’s starting to smell like Almonds.” LOL.[/quote]
    ————————————-
    LOL, I said the same thing when we were watching… “Help! I’m not dead.. just very badly burned!” Hahaha

  339. Hammer says:

    Arrggg. Screwed mine up too. LOL

    I wanted to say that it is possible that when Dan tells Sawyer that his notebook is everything he learned about DHARMA might be that he learned it all when he was with DHARMA as a spy of sorts.

    And, the second point was to show that after Dan realized the skipping was effecting Char, he ran to his note book and realized he could try to use Des to get help.

    I’m just confusing now, eh?

  340. Jaime says:

    Hahahaha!!! How great was that scene in the van w/ Ben, Jack and Sun. Not only did this scene make me laugh my ass off, but Ben’s little tantrum was extremely telling in the grand scheme of things. Just look at him this scene: his frustration is totally genuine. You all are asking if Ben is one of the good guys. Many of you believe that he’s bad. For those of you that think he’s the villain this is the episode that should change your minds. If you believe like I do, Benjamin Linus is stuck in an extremely difficult role. He has to protect, guide, and ensure the success of select people through certain tasks, but without giving them any of the information explaining why they must do these things. He’s bouncing from place to place, source to source, trying to hold everything together while all other forces are aligning against him. And now here he’s got Jack and Sun, plotting backseat vengeance against him.
    At the end of the episode, although he’s lost half his audience, Ben lays a lot of this stuff on the line. He uses Jin’s wedding ring as a tool to get Sun back to the island; ironic since Jin asked Locke to use it for the exact opposite purpose. Somewhere along the line we now know that Ben met up with Locke. Going one step further, I’m going to suggest that Ben’s responsible for Jeremy Bentham being dead, too. Does that cancel his good guy status? I don’t think so. The rest of this season should clear up (I’m hoping) the reasons behind his “bad” guy image. He fluctuates back and forth but in the end i say Ben is Good.

  341. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="314051"]
    Ben is a little whiny baby that wants his mommy back. I believe all his motives are self serving. He doesn’t deserve to be island keeper because he isn’t truly worthy. He can’t hold John’s jock when it comes to being a “good guy”.[/quote]
    You are right, however, Ben WAS selected as the island leader at a very young age. Locke never was meant to lead the island. He failed the tests as we saw last year. Locke was merely Ben’s “leader” for a period of time, about 10 minutes, as long as it took Ben to move the wheel. Not the same as being the island leader, IMO. Truth is Locke is very gullible and merely a pawn in this game of chess.
    [quote comment="314060"] …we do not know how long the people on the island have [been] skipping. I theorize that they have only been skipping for a day or two.
    I completely concur. In fact, I think the off-islanders have lived their “3 years” while the “time skippers” are merely living the ’70 hours’ referenced by voodoo math priestess Hawking.[/quote]
    Great point DocH. The 70 hours must mean something to the island skipping.

  342. The Wrz says:

    [quote comment="314110"]Arrggg. Screwed mine up too. LOL

    I wanted to say that it is possible that when Dan tells Sawyer that his notebook is everything he learned about DHARMA might be that he learned it all when he was with DHARMA as a spy of sorts.

    And, the second point was to show that after Dan realized the skipping was effecting Char, he ran to his note book and realized he could try to use Des to get help.

    I’m just confusing now, eh?[/quote]
    ~~~~~~
    Maybe Faraday is an Alpert of sorts and doesn’t age.

    He could try to use Des to help, because he is blinded by his love of Charlotte and hopes he can break his own rules of course correction and save her

  343. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314101"][quote comment="314096"][quote comment="313881"]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    Well I disagree, but my theory is a little unpopular right now. I think they have hinted around enough that Dan has memory issues. I believe that he has already travelled and told Char to leave. He just doesn’t remember it.(Remember his caretaker flashback and the fact that he gains memory by reading his note book.)[/quote]

    #################
    Well, it’s an interesting point, about the book, and Daniel’s memories, and that would kinda fit with the crying and not knowing why, but I remain skeptical! Something in this show has to function in a linear fashion, or my head will explode!

    [quote]Everyone else in the story didn’t remember seeing the skippers because it had not happened yet. Now we are supposed to believe someone is having a memory of something that didn’t happen yet?

    I think he didn’t know that Ben was going to turn the wheel, but after it happened, he realized Char was in trouble and checked the note book, realized he COULD interact with Des (constant) and tried to get him to contact mom for help. To no avail because of course correction….she’s gone.[/quote]
    I dunno…thats the thing with the intersecting timelines–the general timeline, and your specific timeline. In this case, Daniel–birth to death, HISTORY, beginning to end, Charlotte, B to D.

    In Charlotte’s timeline, she was a Dharma kid, saw some ‘scary man’ who told her to leave the Island and never come back, left with mom, had her life, and was curious about the past she vaguely remembers, and which her mom tells her was a dream. Pursues same, ends up back on Island. The memory of that day clicks as she is dying. To the horror of Daniel.

    In Daniel’s timeline, with the flashing back and forth thru history, he now knows he is going to flash (or by some other means) end up in Dharma time and he will see the young Charlotte. So it hasn’t happened for him YET, but it already happened for HER.

    I don’t know if that makes sense or not, but there is a kind of evil beauty to it.

    Liz

  344. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="314110"]Arrggg. Screwed mine up too. LOL

    I wanted to say that it is possible that when Dan tells Sawyer that his notebook is everything he learned about DHARMA might be that he learned it all when he was with DHARMA as a spy of sorts.

    And, the second point was to show that after Dan realized the skipping was effecting Char, he ran to his note book and realized he could try to use Des to get help.

    I’m just confusing now, eh?[/quote]
    LOL. You are putting up a good argument for both sides I think. On one hand, Dan admittingly had never tried it “Please, Please, let this work”. But on the other hand, maybe he did try it and needed the journal for reference because of his memory problems.

  345. Hammer says:

    Just to shorten up the post, I’ll say this:

    My theory is that Dan already told Char and doesn’t remember it.

    Opposing theory is Char remembers something that Dan didn’t do yet, but will.

    Agree to disagree until futher info gained?

  346. ESB says:

    [quote comment="314111"]Hahahaha!!! How great was that scene in the van w/ Ben, Jack and Sun. Not only did this scene make me laugh my ass off, but Ben’s little tantrum was extremely telling in the grand scheme of things. Just look at him this scene: his frustration is totally genuine. You all are asking if Ben is one of the good guys. Many of you believe that he’s bad. For those of you that think he’s the villain this is the episode that should change your minds. If you believe like I do, Benjamin Linus is stuck in an extremely difficult role. He has to protect, guide, and ensure the success of select people through certain tasks, but without giving them any of the information explaining why they must do these things. He’s bouncing from place to place, source to source, trying to hold everything together while all other forces are aligning against him. And now here he’s got Jack and Sun, plotting backseat vengeance against him.
    At the end of the episode, although he’s lost half his audience, Ben lays a lot of this stuff on the line. He uses Jin’s wedding ring as a tool to get Sun back to the island; ironic since Jin asked Locke to use it for the exact opposite purpose. Somewhere along the line we now know that Ben met up with Locke. Going one step further, I’m going to suggest that Ben’s responsible for Jeremy Bentham being dead, too. Does that cancel his good guy status? I don’t think so. The rest of this season should clear up (I’m hoping) the reasons behind his “bad” guy image. He fluctuates back and forth but in the end i say Ben is Good.[/quote]

    ****************************************

    haha, so it’s possible to be a murderer, master-maniplutor, kidnapper and a compulsive liar and be good?? interesting…;)

    I actually totally understand and get your point but i think that his tantrum, like everything else he does, was totally calculated and designed to get a certain response/action…

    it’s the age old debate and something tells me it will still be open to debate when the show has come to it’s conclusion, but i say that AT BEST, Ben is neither ‘good’ nor ‘bad’, just someone who does whatever it takes to reach his own goals and further his own agenda (which actually in my book kinda makes him a bad guy by definition;)…

    i personally find it very hard to consider him a good guy, although maybe you’re right and the reasons why will be fully revealed by the end of the series…

    either way, i LOVE this show…;)

  347. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="314116"]Just to shorten up the post[/quote]
    Too late.:)

  348. ESB says:

    [quote comment="314116"]Just to shorten up the post, I’ll say this:

    My theory is that Dan already told Char and doesn’t remember it.

    Opposing theory is Char remembers something that Dan didn’t do yet, but will.

    Agree to disagree until futher info gained?[/quote]

    i agree with you and think that Dan already told her and doesn’t remember it…i would even say that maybe Dan DOES remember telling a ‘little girl’ to leave and not come back or she would die but maybe wasn’t aware that the little girl was Charlotte until she told him about it…haha, how’s that? ;)

  349. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="314114"][quote comment="314101"][quote comment="314096"][quote comment="313881"]

    I don’t know if that makes sense or not, but there is a kind of evil beauty to it.

    Liz[/quote]

    Makes sense to me!

    I have another QUESTION!!!! Some people are going with the course correction theory. Since my theory is pretty much the opposite, I just have to ask. The purge was not a natural thing that happened. Ben set it up. Or Jacob or SOMEBODY. Looks like all the kids got off the island safely. Did we see any dead women?

    Seeing something like Final Destination, “What difference does it make if they are on or off the island?” If you are supposed to die, your gonna die. How are we so sure someone like Charlotte is supposed to die? Maybe she was supposed to live. I think the only reason she is dead is because of what is going on now, and crazy guy she saw as a child was Dan warning her.

    I don’t believe anyone was meant or not meant to die. If the island wants you dead you are going to die. Micheal was off the island and tried to shoot himself. I just believe that Charlotte lived for a reason, and still will live because I still don’t understand how she dies in the past but can be alive in 2004. But lets say she is dead, I honestly don’t think it’s because or course correcting.

    At this point though, I am up for anything. I really love the theories…not understanding the encyclopedia one…I just want answers. IMO this time traveling thing is hard to discuss and follow and it’s really hard to explain your point of view and it’s hard for me to answer, so PLEASE don’t feel like you sound like a broken record.

  350. Frank says:

    Did anyone else find it interesting how Locke suddenly changed and needed to get off the island to help when all the other seasons, he NEVER wanted to leave? He knows what the island is – as he said in last season’s finale when talking to Jack “It’s not an island. It’s a place where miracles happen.” Locke could not walk before. He can on the island. But then he leaves the island to help the others (castaways). That’s quite altruistic. He might be crippled being off the island but he goes anyway.

  351. Tasker says:

    [quote comment="314047"][quote comment="313990"][quote comment="313987"]Did I miss something obvious? Why was Sayid mad at Jack? I get something happened that he doesn’t trust Ben, but Sayid seemed equally annoyed at Jack in the end of TPID.[/quote]
    ++++++++
    Jack support Ben and them all going back, that’s all Sayid needs.[/quote]
    ___________________________________
    It bothers me that Sayid walked away. I mean, where’s this guy going to go? From Ben’s assassin to fry guy at Burger King? With the love of his life dead what does he have to go back to anyway? He should just go back to the island because he has nothing better to do. I would.[/quote]
    ______________________________________
    Sayid’s LOL quote of the week:

    “If I ever see you or him again, it will be extremely unpleasant for all of us.”

  352. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="314120"] Some people are going with the course correction theory. [/quote]
    I don’t think course correction is a theory in the show’s writing. It is fact. It happens.

  353. ESB says:

    [quote comment="314121"]Did anyone else find it interesting how Locke suddenly changed and needed to get off the island to help when all the other seasons, he NEVER wanted to leave? He knows what the island is – as he said in last season’s finale when talking to Jack “It’s not an island. It’s a place where miracles happen.” Locke could not walk before. He can on the island. But then he leaves the island to help the others (castaways). That’s quite altruistic. He might be crippled being off the island but he goes anyway.[/quote]

    **************************************

    i have come to the conclusion that Locke is somewhat of a fool and definitely a pawn…JMO…;)

  354. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="314124"][quote comment="314120"] Some people are going with the course correction theory. [/quote]
    I don’t think course correction is a theory in the show’s writing. It is fact. It happens.[/quote]

    That’s true. I believe in the course correction on certain parts of the show, sorry. I just don’t think the time traveling thing is. I think everything has happened exactly like it was supposed to. Kinda like I don’t think Charlie was supposed to die saving Claire. i think Des saw all that to save him so that he would die when he did. He would have been one of the only people to figure out that code. That is when he was SUPPOSED to die. That is what I believe anyway. It was his destiny!!

  355. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314124"][quote comment="314120"] Some people are going with the course correction theory. [/quote]
    I don’t think course correction is a theory in the show’s writing. It is fact. It happens.[/quote]
    Ummmm….Hawking told Des all about it. Man with red shoes ring any bells?

  356. ESB says:

    [quote comment="314124"][quote comment="314120"] Some people are going with the course correction theory. [/quote]
    I don’t think course correction is a theory in the show’s writing. It is fact. It happens.[/quote]

    just so i’m sure i understand, can you give one example of how we know that course correction a fact? i think i’m missing something…BIG surprise…;)

  357. Tasha says:

    After reading what I just wrote in comment 355, I am going to contradict myself…maybe he should have just died in the first place. I give up!

  358. ESB says:

    [quote comment="314128"][quote comment="314124"][quote comment="314120"] Some people are going with the course correction theory. [/quote]
    I don’t think course correction is a theory in the show’s writing. It is fact. It happens.[/quote]
    Ummmm….Hawking told Des all about it. Man with red shoes ring any bells?[/quote]

    thanks, that’s it! i knew i was missing/forgetting something…;)

  359. Jaime says:

    [quote comment="314117"][quote comment="314111"]Hahahaha!!! How great was that scene in the van w/ Ben, Jack and Sun. Not only did this scene make me laugh my ass off, but Ben’s little tantrum was extremely telling in the grand scheme of things. Just look at him this scene: his frustration is totally genuine. You all are asking if Ben is one of the good guys. Many of you believe that he’s bad. For those of you that think he’s the villain this is the episode that should change your minds. If you believe like I do, Benjamin Linus is stuck in an extremely difficult role. He has to protect, guide, and ensure the success of select people through certain tasks, but without giving them any of the information explaining why they must do these things. He’s bouncing from place to place, source to source, trying to hold everything together while all other forces are aligning against him. And now here he’s got Jack and Sun, plotting backseat vengeance against him.
    At the end of the episode, although he’s lost half his audience, Ben lays a lot of this stuff on the line. He uses Jin’s wedding ring as a tool to get Sun back to the island; ironic since Jin asked Locke to use it for the exact opposite purpose. Somewhere along the line we now know that Ben met up with Locke. Going one step further, I’m going to suggest that Ben’s responsible for Jeremy Bentham being dead, too. Does that cancel his good guy status? I don’t think so. The rest of this season should clear up (I’m hoping) the reasons behind his “bad” guy image. He fluctuates back and forth but in the end i say Ben is Good.[/quote]

    ****************************************

    haha, so it’s possible to be a murderer, master-maniplutor, kidnapper and a compulsive liar and be good?? interesting…;)

    I actually totally understand and get your point but i think that his tantrum, like everything else he does, was totally calculated and designed to get a certain response/action…

    it’s the age old debate and something tells me it will still be open to debate when the show has come to it’s conclusion, but i say that AT BEST, Ben is neither ‘good’ nor ‘bad’, just someone who does whatever it takes to reach his own goals and further his own agenda (which actually in my book kinda makes him a bad guy by definition;)…

    i personally find it very hard to consider him a good guy, although maybe you’re right and the reasons why will be fully revealed by the end of the series…

    either way, i LOVE this show…;)[/quote]
    ***********************************************
    This is what i love about this site ESB, one minute i think one way and the next i am swayed a bit in the opposite direction. Who is in need of an LAA meeting? :) i am

  360. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314130"][quote comment="314124"][quote comment="314120"] Some people are going with the course correction theory. [/quote]
    I don’t think course correction is a theory in the show’s writing. It is fact. It happens.[/quote]

    just so i’m sure i understand, can you give one example of how we know that course correction a fact? i think i’m missing something…BIG surprise…;)[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    I don’t think anyone has proved it a fact…but a theory in the show? Here you go:

    As she and Desmond turn around, a pair of legs with red shoes were shown sticking out from under the pile of rubble. As Desmond realized this is the man she pointed out earlier, she admitted to knowing that he would die. When confronted by Desmond as to why she did not warn the man she informed him that he would have been hit by a taxi the next day, and if she had warned him about that he would have broken his neck in the shower. As Desmond stared blankly at her, she explained that the universe has a way of “course correcting” (a phrase Desmond later recites to Charlie), and that death cannot be avoided.

  361. ESB says:

    also, sorry that i keep forgetting to separate quotes…i’ll work on that…

  362. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="314126"]

    i have come to the conclusion that Locke is somewhat of a fool and definitely a pawn…JMO…;)[/quote]
    342 ESB.:) GMTA

  363. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314041"]I think Ben is one of those people with intent to do “good.” I think he feels his actions are justified and necessary to acheive a collective “good.”

    After last night’s episode, I’m wondering if Jacob (or Jacob’s contact set–Christian included) is “bad.” Something Ben recognizes. I listened to Christian in the cave with Locke a few times, and the verbal and nonverbal indicated something more than a benevolent leader upset with an underling disobeying an order “I told YOU to move the island John.”

    Ben shot Locke after taking him to the cabin to see Jacob. We hear someone (who we assume is Jacob) saying “Help me.” With Ben present it’s reasonable to assume he’s at odds with Jacob. At first I assumed it was a twisted jealousy that led him to shoot John. Now I think it shows that Jacob and Ben are in different camps.

    I don’t know Ben’s ultimate motivation, but I think he’s “good.”

    Last point–I think Walt is in Ben’s mind the one Jacob promised would come. Jacob/Christian and to an extent Richard have placed their chips with Locke. I think Ben has a different view.[/quote]
    Ho, ho, ho! I like you’re thinking–not that I agree with it, but some kick-butt ideas. I’m not buying into Jacob being a Force for good–he’s real easy with advising people to kill other people. Now, call me old-fashioned, but I seem to recall somewhere that there’s commandment or something against that.

    I’m not buying into Ben being ‘good’ either, but I will give you that he thinks he’s doing what he does for ‘the good’. Somehow, I just don’t think his ideas of what that The GOOD is will end up in my ballpark, or be good for my favorite characters.

    Locke–I used to think he was the ‘soul’ of the Island, when I thought there was some ultimate good in betwixt all the bad, but then he went all whacko on us. Can you say walking out of the jungle and throwing a machete at a woman, then walking away? Hellooo, John, where has your soul gone???? So far, this season, tho, he does seem to be back on that track of good. However, he trusts the undead waaaay too easily.

    But Ben is an awesome character! that I agree on 100%

    Liz

  364. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="314134"][
    I don’t think anyone has proved it a fact…but a theory in the show? Here you go:

    As she and Desmond turn around, a pair of legs with red shoes were shown sticking out from under the pile of rubble. As Desmond realized this is the man she pointed out earlier, she admitted to knowing that he would die. When confronted by Desmond as to why she did not warn the man she informed him that he would have been hit by a taxi the next day, and if she had warned him about that he would have broken his neck in the shower. As Desmond stared blankly at her, she explained that the universe has a way of “course correcting” (a phrase Desmond later recites to Charlie), and that death cannot be avoided.[/quote]

    D & C have stated it in their podcasts.

  365. ESB says:

    me too Jaime…and regardless of whether he’s good or bad, Ben is one of my favorite parts of the show…he can super creepy or pretty damn funny, sometimes at the same time, and you either end up loving him or loving to hate him…i personally love to hate him…;)

  366. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314110"]Arrggg. Screwed mine up too. LOL

    I wanted to say that it is possible that when Dan tells Sawyer that his notebook is everything he learned about DHARMA might be that he learned it all when he was with DHARMA as a spy of sorts.

    And, the second point was to show that after Dan realized the skipping was effecting Char, he ran to his note book and realized he could try to use Des to get help.

    I’m just confusing now, eh?[/quote]
    LOL, no, that actually makes sense to me! And the journal has traveled through time and made it to his desk in the future, and he’s trying to unravel all the bits, or, er, uh, yah, something like that there.

    Liz

  367. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="314134"][quote comment="314130"][quote comment="314124"][quote comment="314120"] Some people are going with the course correction theory. [/quote]
    I don’t think course correction is a theory in the show’s writing. It is fact. It happens.[/quote]

    just so i’m sure i understand, can you give one example of how we know that course correction a fact? i think i’m missing something…BIG surprise…;)[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    I don’t think anyone has proved it a fact…but a theory in the show? Here you go:

    As she and Desmond turn around, a pair of legs with red shoes were shown sticking out from under the pile of rubble. As Desmond realized this is the man she pointed out earlier, she admitted to knowing that he would die. When confronted by Desmond as to why she did not warn the man she informed him that he would have been hit by a taxi the next day, and if she had warned him about that he would have broken his neck in the shower. As Desmond stared blankly at her, she explained that the universe has a way of “course correcting” (a phrase Desmond later recites to Charlie), and that death cannot be avoided.[/quote]

    I watched that many times. I am just trying to say that if Charlotte was meant to die in the Purge, I think it would have corrected itself a long time ago. I don’t think she is going to die just because she came back to the island. I think it would have already course corrected. The theory or course correction and time travel seems like a theory to me. The universe has a way or correcting itself. It seems to me that everyone is changing things. The universe course correcting is like the universe making things happen the way its are supposed to be. Unavoidable circumstances are not bringing the )^ back, Ben, Locke, and Hawking are doing it. She couldn’t change Desmond’s mind to give the ring to penny, he did it himself.

    Now I said I am giving up because if Des had just let Charlie die and not save him, none of this would have happened. Besides I think Des’s vision was crap because I never saw a helicopter come pick up Claire and the baby. Charlie died for nothing:(

    So this is why I am getting swayed into another direction now. It’s so great how this show does this to me!

  368. ESB says:

    [quote comment="314136"][quote comment="314126"]

    i have come to the conclusion that Locke is somewhat of a fool and definitely a pawn…JMO…;)[/quote]
    342 ESB.:) GMTA[/quote]

    yeah i figured somone would’ve said it before my post…i don’t think it’s an original sentiment at this point…;)

  369. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="314142"]

    yeah i figured somone would’ve said it before my post…i don’t think it’s an original sentiment at this point…;)[/quote]
    Actually I think we are in the minority on that subject. It appears that most people believe he was meant to be the island leader.

  370. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314141"]Now I said I am giving up because if Des had just let Charlie die and not save him, none of this would have happened. Besides I think Des’s vision was crap because I never saw a helicopter come pick up Claire and the baby. Charlie died for nothing:([/quote]
    +++++++++++
    IMO, Keamy killing Alex is what started all this. Keamy broke the ‘rules’, Ben got pissed and turned the wheel….

  371. ESB says:

    [quote comment="314144"][quote comment="314142"]

    yeah i figured somone would’ve said it before my post…i don’t think it’s an original sentiment at this point…;)[/quote]
    Actually I think we are in the minority on that subject. It appears that most people believe he was meant to be the island leader.[/quote]

    *********************************

    hmm, interesting…for someone who is meant to be the island leader, he sure doesn’t seem to have any clue what he’s doing most of the time, haha…;)

  372. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314121"]Did anyone else find it interesting how Locke suddenly changed and needed to get off the island to help when all the other seasons, he NEVER wanted to leave? He knows what the island is – as he said in last season’s finale when talking to Jack “It’s not an island. It’s a place where miracles happen.” Locke could not walk before. He can on the island. But then he leaves the island to help the others (castaways). That’s quite altruistic. He might be crippled being off the island but he goes anyway.[/quote]
    Yeah, the Island was good for John, in some ways, the island of miracles, and for Rose, cured of cancer, and maybe there are other miracles out there.

    But there’s a whole lot of crappola overshadowing the good! Maybe Jacob hijacked the island for his own twisted purpose, or people trying to own it, wrecks it, a la the (apparent) struggle between Widmore and Ben for supremacy of some sort or other, or something…

    But John’s willingness to sacrifice his life for The Island, the object that is most important to him–hmm, I think it could go either way, either he is the big hero of everything, or he is being duped.

  373. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="314138"][quote comment="314134"][
    I don’t think anyone has proved it a fact…but a theory in the show? Here you go:

    As she and Desmond turn around, a pair of legs with red shoes were shown sticking out from under the pile of rubble. As Desmond realized this is the man she pointed out earlier, she admitted to knowing that he would die. When confronted by Desmond as to why she did not warn the man she informed him that he would have been hit by a taxi the next day, and if she had warned him about that he would have broken his neck in the shower. As Desmond stared blankly at her, she explained that the universe has a way of “course correcting” (a phrase Desmond later recites to Charlie), and that death cannot be avoided.[/quote]

    D & C have stated it in their podcasts.[/quote]
    Found it. From Lostpedia. Feb. 28, 2008.

    Carlton Cuse: The hard thing about this episode was actually structuring the time travel elements – or consciousness traveling elements – and avoiding paradox. But that again is something that I think a lot of people have speculated about – “are there parallel futures, are there sort of multiple universes and worlds that exist in the future depending on how events in the past play out?” and that is not our intention.

    Damon Lindelof: Yeah, and Ms. Hawking basically explained those rules in the first episode, “Flashes Before Your Eyes” where she basically said that the universe has a way of course correcting, so even if you did something in the past that you didn’t do before, somehow the sort of fabric of time like swoops in around you and fixes everything so things don’t go off the rails. I assume probably after “The Constant” we’re going to get a lot of questions like “Well, did Penny know when she went to go see Desmond at the stadium in 2001 that he had told her to wait by the phone back in 1994?” and all of these questions, and to that we say refer to the Ms. Hawking scene in “Flashes Before Your Eyes”. She gives a fairly good explanation of how everything works.

  374. Tasker says:

    I’m sure it’s been tossed around in other previous episodes’ blogs, but it seems obvious that Ben has already experienced everything that is happening. The reason he “always has a plan.” He never really tells people everything even though he knows it for good reason: it would only complicate the course correcting he is already trying to achieve.

    The only thing that seems to surprise him is the death of Alex (maybe the island getting rid of anything that would cause Ben to act selfishly). Regardless, it’s apparent that he’s trying to do the same thing as Faraday – correcting the course. The difference is “love” will not keep him from completing his task. The Charlotte bit will make Faraday act in his own interest when changing the course, even if it is ineffective (Charlotte dies anyway).

    So Faraday will probably be another issue Ben has to deal with (kill?) in order to get everything back on track.

    In essence, because Ben doesn’t love or have ties to anyone he is the person for the job. Maybe with some promise of reincarnation from the “smokey/temple” enlightenment?

  375. Tasker says:

    Oh yeah – all that to say: Ben is a good guy.

  376. Matty H says:

    [quote comment="314111"]Hahahaha!!! How great was that scene in the van w/ Ben, Jack and Sun. Not only did this scene make me laugh my ass off, but Ben’s little tantrum was extremely telling in the grand scheme of things. Just look at him this scene: his frustration is totally genuine. You all are asking if Ben is one of the good guys. Many of you believe that he’s bad. For those of you that think he’s the villain this is the episode that should change your minds. If you believe like I do, Benjamin Linus is stuck in an extremely difficult role. He has to protect, guide, and ensure the success of select people through certain tasks, but without giving them any of the information explaining why they must do these things. He’s bouncing from place to place, source to source, trying to hold everything together while all other forces are aligning against him. And now here he’s got Jack and Sun, plotting backseat vengeance against him.
    At the end of the episode, although he’s lost half his audience, Ben lays a lot of this stuff on the line. He uses Jin’s wedding ring as a tool to get Sun back to the island; ironic since Jin asked Locke to use it for the exact opposite purpose. Somewhere along the line we now know that Ben met up with Locke. Going one step further, I’m going to suggest that Ben’s responsible for Jeremy Bentham being dead, too. Does that cancel his good guy status? I don’t think so. The rest of this season should clear up (I’m hoping) the reasons behind his “bad” guy image. He fluctuates back and forth but in the end i say Ben is Good.[/quote]

    “Ben is good”?!?! Wait, you seem to have forgotten Ben orchestrated a mass murdered on his own people including his father! Ben is very bad, dont trust anything he says! … but I love his character, by far one of the best actors on this show

  377. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314141"][quote comment="314134"][quote comment="314130"][quote comment="314124"][quote comment="314120"] Some people are going with the course correction theory. [/quote]
    I don’t think course correction is a theory in the show’s writing. It is fact. It happens.[/quote]
    I am just trying to say that if Charlotte was meant to die in the Purge, I think it would have corrected itself a long time ago. I don’t think she is going to die just because she came back to the island. I think it would have already course corrected. The theory or course correction and time travel seems like a theory to me. The universe has a way or correcting itself. It seems to me that everyone is changing things. The universe course correcting is like the universe making things happen the way its are supposed to be. Unavoidable circumstances are not bringing the )^ back, Ben, Locke, and Hawking are doing it. She couldn’t change Desmond’s mind to give the ring to penny, he did it himself.

    Now I said I am giving up because if Des had just let Charlie die and not save him, none of this would have happened. Besides I think Des’s vision was crap because I never saw a helicopter come pick up Claire and the baby. Charlie died for nothing:(

    So this is why I am getting swayed into another direction now. It’s so great how this show does this to me![/quote]
    Tasha, I am with you on Course Correction w/ Charlotte. I think in her case, sometimes sh–stuff happens, and unfortunately for her, it happened badly to her on Unhappy Island. That’s just bad juju, not a series of Death swinging his scythe. oops, wait, no, hold still, damn you! oops, snap, again I missed, OK, wait, going for the big swing, GOTCHA!

    And Charlie’s demise–still unforgiven.

    Liz

  378. K-Mac says:

    There is a lot of discussion about whether Ben is good or bad and good reasons from both sides, but if you recall from many of the past episodes, Ben has said from time to time to various survivors that “we’re the good guys”. We don’t believe that because he does a lot of bad things, but those bad things are essentially to protect and preserve the Island and their way of life on the Island.

    Things are said for a reason on the show, so it’s possible that Ben really is good and he does whatever he deems necessary to protect and preserve the Island from the bad guys.

    We learned Whidmore is inherently bad when he killed one of his own in cold blood (snapped his neck) in the 1950’s to prevent Locke et al. from finding their camp. We know he’s still bad because he hired the mercenaries to find Ben who killed people in their path. We also saw him on a video beating up a guy in an ally that was shown to Michael to convince him to be a spy on Whidmore’s boat.

    The Others have a rule never to kill one of their own.

  379. duke says:

    [quote comment="314063"]Regarding the wheel chamber that Locke fell in to… it was interesting how they shot it. It seemed to be a reversal of the chamber that Ben was in – almost a mirror image – as if instead of it being the same chamber, we were looking at what was on the other side of Ben’s donkey wheel. .

    Check out Ben’s face when he sees Desmond outside of the church- it’s like a light bulb suddenly goes off in his head. As the one person who can change things, Desmond instantly becomes plan B. Three years of coordination and effort, and Ben’s only 2 for 6. But with Desmond going back to the island, maybe that doesn’t even matter. Ben looks completely astounded to see him. I think this marks the first time Ben even speaks to Desmond. And as he brings him in to see Hawking, Desmond suddenly becomes their ace in the hole.

    Remember when Rousseau totally freaked out when she saw Jin again on the beach? ”I saw you disappear!”
    In her shock, I saw a simple answer to the time travel noodle-cooker that many of you have been puzzling over since last week, Did the French Lady recognize Jin when she first met the castaways in Season 1? The answer could very well be: Does it matter? For Rousseau, Reappearing Jin was one more scary, inexplicable thing in a scary, inexplicable situation that was about to become a way of life. By the time their lives intersected once more in her future timeline, seeing Jin again (if she even recognized him), the significance probably just bounced off her. ”Oh. You again. Whatever.”[/quote]
    You totally stole your comments from Doc Jensen at ew.com at least have the courtesy to tell where you got if from and stop taking credit for someone else’s work.

  380. duke says:

    The last paragraph is directly quoted from the ew.com article. You should be ashamed that you cannot come up with ideas yourself.

  381. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="314042"] Making us hate the best written character on TV, [/quote]
    Dr. Walter Bishop is chasing him down with a quickness.

  382. duke says:

    [quote comment="314087"]There have been moments this season so far that made me really sad or really happy. When Sawyer saw Kate in the jungle, that was one that made me sad. When Sawyer found Jin in the jungle, that was one that made me really happy. Then in last night’s episode I was very sad when Locke was going down the well and the time flash came and Sawyer was trying to pull him. After they came out of the flash and Sawyer realized that the well was just the ground and the rope was sticking out of it, Sawyer was digging away at the ground to get Locke back like a Beagle trying to find his bone. It made me sad :-( Sawyer has really made a 180 degree change from when we first met him in S1.

    I don’t think Ben is a good guy. I want to, but there are just too many things that he’s done wrong. Getting lawyers to go after Kate to get blood samples from her and Aaron was so mean. And remember, Jin told Locke to give Sun his wedding band and tell her that he is dead because he doesn’t want her to come back. Don’t you think Locke might have told Ben this when they met? Why would Locke go against his promise to Jin? If Locke did give Ben the wedding band and told him to tell Sun that Jin is dead, then Ben giving it to Sun and using it to get her to go back to the island is so wrong on so many levels!

    Ben = bad guy in my books.[/quote]
    Locke would go against his promise to Jin because he believes that ALL must return to save them. He has said as much at least 3 times this season alone.

  383. Newbie says:

    [quote comment="314116"]Just to shorten up the post, I’ll say this:

    My theory is that Dan already told Char and doesn’t remember it.

    Opposing theory is Char remembers something that Dan didn’t do yet, but will.

    Agree to disagree until futher info gained?[/quote]
    +++
    I think that Daniel had traveled back in time before. I’m not sure whether to believe that only his mind traveled (like Desmond) or his entire self, body and mind. His reaction to the plane crash on TV in Season 4, as alluded in some posts, probably has to do with his realization that his mind and body time-traveling journey will begin very soon, whereas before it was only his mind traveling? But for your mind to travel to a certain time, wouldn’t your body have had to be present in that time? I am soooo confused!!
    But whatever the inner workings of time-traveling may be, I do think that Ben turning the FDW is not the first time Daniel has time-traveled. I think his journal entries on the DI are from when his ‘mind’ traveled to that time.
    So I think he told Charlotte and has forgotten because of the problems with his memory.

  384. DocH says:

    ESB wrote: “i have come to the conclusion that Locke is somewhat of a fool and definitely a pawn…”

    That truism should be promoted to eleventh commandment. He has always been played on the show – how will he redeem himself – by giving his life… even though he is getting played in the process.

    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, change my name to Locke and send me on Walk-Abouts down under. If saps and suckers had there own money… Locke’s picture would be on every bill. (too harsh?)

  385. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314157"][quote comment="314042"] Making us hate the best written character on TV, [/quote]
    Dr. Walter Bishop is chasing him down with a quickness.[/quote]

    But I LOVE Walter! (and I love Peter more!)

    : ) P

  386. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314070"]OK, I’ll have to go back and find those discussions but the baby in the season 5 opener was clearly white and Charlotte can speak Korean. Which led me to believe she was the baby with Marvin Candle/Dr. Chang/etc. I don’t understand why it is assumed Miles was the baby but I’ll go back and read the posts. thanks.[/quote]

    The baby may not be Miles, but I really DON’T think it was Charlotte:

    http://tinyurl.com/babychang

    : ) P

  387. Kathy P says:

    Before Char died was there another flash? Maybe they went to the day of the purge and that is why Char died? Maybe she was to die in the purge? But needed to be in the right time? Any thoughts?

  388. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314149"]I’m sure it’s been tossed around in other previous episodes’ blogs, but it seems obvious that Ben has already experienced everything that is happening. The reason he “always has a plan.” …
    In essence, because Ben doesn’t love or have ties to anyone he is the person for the job. Maybe with some promise of reincarnation from the “smokey/temple” enlightenment?[/quote]
    Ben always has a plan because that’s how he is. Smart, and far-sighted. And ruthless. Any tool to hand, any emotion, any knowledge of anyone’s flaws/wishes/hopes/dreams, all are fair game. No one, not even the Benster, can cover all the bases, however, thus, he couldn’t save Alex. And he DOES love–inasmuch as he is capable of it. He loved Alex, Annie, and Juliette. Though none of them as much as he loves the old Ben. IMO

  389. duke says:

    [quote comment="314121"]Did anyone else find it interesting how Locke suddenly changed and needed to get off the island to help when all the other seasons, he NEVER wanted to leave? He knows what the island is – as he said in last season’s finale when talking to Jack “It’s not an island. It’s a place where miracles happen.” Locke could not walk before. He can on the island. But then he leaves the island to help the others (castaways). That’s quite altruistic. He might be crippled being off the island but he goes anyway.[/quote]
    The altruistic thing is that he knows he has to die to do it. He is ONLY leaving because he believes its his destiny to do so and to lead the others.

  390. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314154"]There is a lot of discussion about whether Ben is good or bad and good reasons from both sides, but if you recall from many of the past episodes, Ben has said from time to time to various survivors that “we’re the good guys”. We don’t believe that because he does a lot of bad things, but those bad things are essentially to protect and preserve the Island and their way of life on the Island.
    [/quote]
    Yeeah, but, no. We know for sure one thing about Benjamin Linus, he’s a liar. And we know whatever his ultimate agenda is, he is ruthless in its pursuit. Yeah, so he protects his own. Well, they’re HIS. And, honestly, how many bad/awful/murderous things can a person do and still be ‘good’? End justify the means??? That would take a whole lot of justifying!!!

  391. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314163"][quote comment="314157"][quote comment="314042"] Making us hate the best written character on TV, [/quote]
    Dr. Walter Bishop is chasing him down with a quickness.[/quote]

    But I LOVE Walter! (and I love Peter more!)

    : ) P[/quote]
    Ooh, I love Walter, too!!! Wasn’t that so cool about the manifesto? Walter is the bomb. Love FRINGE. Ahem, but we digress.
    –Liz

  392. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="314171"] That would take a whole lot of justifying!!![/quote]
    I am not weighing in on either side, YET, but if the end is saving the entire population of earth ( roughly 6.7 billion people), I would say the means are justified. Truth is, we don’t know what the end is.

  393. geribnj says:

    http://www.docarzt.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/the-numbers-transmission.mp3
    found this on Docartz blog site…suggesting that the voice you hear on the transmission from Rousseau’s teams radio is Hurley’s voice saying the numbers.. any thoughts???????

  394. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314174"]http://www.docarzt.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/the-numbers-transmission.mp3
    found this on Docartz blog site…suggesting that the voice you hear on the transmission from Rousseau’s teams radio is Hurley’s voice saying the numbers.. any thoughts???????[/quote]

    eh. I can hear why someone might think so, but I don’t think that is Hurley/Jorge Garcia.

    : ) P

  395. duke says:

    I just read at ew.com that we learned last year that Charlotte’s dad is named David Lewis. Has anyone found this info elsewhere?

  396. duke says:

    Just did some research. Charlotte states in “confirmed dead” that she was raised in Bromsgrove Worcestershire, England by David and Jeanette Lewis, her father and mother.

  397. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314180"]I just read at ew.com that we learned last year that Charlotte’s dad is named David Lewis. Has anyone found this info elsewhere?[/quote]

    When Ben gave Charlotte’s vital statistics in “Confirmed Dead” S4E2, he gave that as her father’s name: Her name is Charlotte Lewis! Charlotte Staples Lewis. Born July second, nineteen seventy-nine, Essex, England. Parents David and Jeanette. Eldest of three, all girls. She was raised in Bromsgrove. Did her undergraduate studies at Kent. Took her PhD in Cultural Anthropology at Oxford. She’s here with two other team members and a pilot. Their names Daniel Faraday, Miles Straume, Frank Lapidus.

    Whether or not this is true, as Charlotte knows it, or not, is up for grabs.

    : ) P

  398. duke says:

    Also as for Rous remembering Jin when losties crashed: would you remember someone who disappearred right before your eyes twice? I would think so. This supports my theory that it did not originally occur this way. Also he was the only other person around when she killed her team but doesn’t remember? It just doesn’t make sense.

  399. Tasha says:

    OMG! I just had an interview with some producer of this reality show I have been trying to get on. This interview was my first with them online and SOMEHOW I couldn’t even have an interview without talking about Lost. So they are like…soooo..you like Lost huh? What do you think the smoke monster is? And what do you think is going on? I didn’t expect questions like that but it’s LOST right? So I have A LOT to say and they were like WHOA! You just took this to a whole different level! Im so embarrassed! I know this is way off subject but and not discussing the episode BUT I really need a LAA meeting. I hope nobody ever sees this interview. It was recorded on video tape. What if he KNOWS someone from Lost and they are like, Damn this girl was interviewing for a show about phobias and couldn’t shut up about LOST! AHHHHH!

  400. geribnj says:

    found this on youtube the season 5 promo and if you pause at 1:34 it is a subliminal for Ajira Airways convincing me that the O6ers return on this airline and thats where the bottle in the outrigger came from

  401. Bobola says:

    [quote comment="314156"]The last paragraph is directly quoted from the ew.com article. You should be ashamed that you cannot come up with ideas yourself.[/quote]

    —-
    Oh duke; STFU.
    No one elected you Hall monitor.
    Don’t get your panties all soiled over nothing.
    Jeez, what a crybaby. Oh, the shaaaaame!

  402. bolddeceiver says:

    Probably already been discussed but did anyone notice that the music box Jin picks up in the camp is the one that Sayid fixes for Danielle while being held prisoner?

  403. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="314198"]Probably already been discussed but did anyone notice that the music box Jin picks up in the camp is the one that Sayid fixes for Danielle while being held prisoner?[/quote]

    Yes I did.

  404. TheWhiteHorse says:

    [quote comment="314198"]Probably already been discussed but did anyone notice that the music box Jin picks up in the camp is the one that Sayid fixes for Danielle while being held prisoner?[/quote]

    Actually, you were the first to bring it up, and it’s been driving me crazy wondering where I’d seen it b/f. Thanks so much!

  405. TheWhiteHorse says:

    [quote comment="314144"][quote comment="314142"]

    yeah i figured somone would’ve said it before my post…i don’t think it’s an original sentiment at this point…;)[/quote]
    Actually I think we are in the minority on that subject. It appears that most people believe he was meant to be the island leader.[/quote]

    I’m with you both. Sometimes I just want to shake Locke upside down and knock some sense into the poor man.

  406. TheWhiteHorse says:

    [quote comment="314165"][quote comment="314070"]OK, I’ll have to go back and find those discussions but the baby in the season 5 opener was clearly white and Charlotte can speak Korean. Which led me to believe she was the baby with Marvin Candle/Dr. Chang/etc. I don’t understand why it is assumed Miles was the baby but I’ll go back and read the posts. thanks.[/quote]

    The baby may not be Miles, but I really DON’T think it was Charlotte:

    http://tinyurl.com/babychang

    : ) P[/quote]

    Thanks so much for the link. That was great. I was planning on searching for it on my own but had no idea where to start. I didn’t think I remembered seeing the baby with red hair.

    I think I’m going to go with the Charlotte is Annie theory…and that the reason she is so young is b/c she and her mother went down the well and turned the donkey wheel and ended up going forward in time. That one seems to make the most sense at this point in time, and also would explain her love/knowledge of the 70s. Kudos to whoever came up with that.

    Also, I checked on Lostpedia & when Ben and Annie first met she gave him an Apollo bar. Maybe that had something to do with her saying something like, “I’m not supposed to have chocolate b/f bed,” right before she died?

  407. 6th here we come says:

    Can someone tell me who Rousseau and her people were? I thought they were scientists of some sort. Why were they armed and very military-like (cautious, ready to attack) in their actions right before the incident with the monster?

    Also Charlotte and all her connections to so many people–especially Faraday– and all these statements she was making from different time periods-“marry an american”, “chocolate”, the band name, lends more credit to her being Ben or Widmore’s child.

    “Some crazy man told me to not come back. Daniel that man was you” Faraday looked puzzled by that statement from Charlotte.

    What was Eloise’s objective a few seasons back with Desmond in the jewelry store and her telling him stuff about marrying Penny her, the wedding ring, and that certain things have to happen like Charlie dying?

  408. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="314183"]

    When Ben gave Charlotte’s vital statistics in “Confirmed Dead” S4E2, he gave that as her father’s name: Her name is Charlotte Lewis! Charlotte Staples Lewis. Born July second, nineteen seventy-nine, Essex, England. Parents David and Jeanette. Eldest of three, all girls. She was raised in Bromsgrove. Did her undergraduate studies at Kent. Took her PhD in Cultural Anthropology at Oxford. She’s here with two other team members and a pilot. Their names Daniel Faraday, Miles Straume, Frank Lapidus.

    Whether or not this is true, as Charlotte knows it, or not, is up for grabs.

    : ) P[/quote]
    Great point PJ. Ben GAVE the stats on Charlotte. Ben is a LIAR. She did not protest though, maybe she was dumbfounded. It happens to the best of us, being dumbfounded. It has happened to Ben Linus twice now ( Alex’s death and Des’s knowledge of Faraday’s mother ).
    Or was Charlotte protecting her sibs? both of her sister’s?
    The eldest of 2 sisters I highly doubt. JMO.

  409. Rita says:

    [quote comment="314221"][quote comment="314183"]

    When Ben gave Charlotte’s vital statistics in “Confirmed Dead” S4E2, he gave that as her father’s name: Her name is Charlotte Lewis! Charlotte Staples Lewis. Born July second, nineteen seventy-nine, Essex, England. Parents David and Jeanette. Eldest of three, all girls. She was raised in Bromsgrove. Did her undergraduate studies at Kent. Took her PhD in Cultural Anthropology at Oxford. She’s here with two other team members and a pilot. Their names Daniel Faraday, Miles Straume, Frank Lapidus.

    Whether or not this is true, as Charlotte knows it, or not, is up for grabs.

    : ) P[/quote]
    Great point PJ. Ben GAVE the stats on Charlotte. Ben is a LIAR. She did not protest though, maybe she was dumbfounded. It happens to the best of us, being dumbfounded. It has happened to Ben Linus twice now ( Alex’s death and Des’s knowledge of Faraday’s mother ).
    Or was Charlotte protecting her sibs? both of her sister’s?
    The eldest of 2 sisters I highly doubt. JMO.[/quote]
    ___________________________________
    Well, all of the stats are things that could have happened for real, post island. She and her mother left the island, and her father, behind. Her mother re-married and Charlotte became a Lewis. She could very well then be the oldest of 3 girls – with 2 half sisters. I’m still thinking that she COULD be the baby we saw in S5E1 (sorry PJ – the picture was inconclusive for me:)other shots of her/him DID seem to show reddish hair. Anyway, Charlotte mentioned that she couldn’t remember her mother’s maiden name – so we could assume she would be someone we wouldn’t know by a married name – but WOULD by a maiden name (like Widmore? Chang/Halliwax/Wickman/Candle – if her mother never married him? Could be anyone) Have we heard of a Jeanette before? I don’t remember anyone by that name.

  410. Rita says:

    [quote comment="313867"][quote comment="313866"]I think Jacob isn’t a physical person/thing, rather a spiritual, almost godlike presence that can take different forms (and for the past few sightings has taken the form of Christian). But I don’t think Christian is physically present on the island, just an illusion (hence why he couldn’t help Locke up).

    Speaking of Claire, when are we going to learn about what happened to her? Last we saw, she disappeared and was seen in the cabin with Christian/Jacob… is she dead? Any thoughts?[/quote]

    +++++
    Well, since his body is still missing, I have to believe he isn’t an illusion. I mean how could Locke just dream up a guy that he has never seen before who just happens to look like Christian Shepherd and not to mention, says he IS him?[/quote]
    __________________________________
    He seems to be an actual physical being of some kind – remember that we saw him holding baby Aaron so he can’t be ONLY spirit. I’m still thinking that Jacob is not A person, but a collective of consciousnesses – past leaders maybe. Christian said he is NOT Jacob, but could speak for him. Perhaps not ALL of Jacob, but a part.

  411. Rita says:

    [quote comment="313797"][quote comment="313795"]So it wasn’t smokey that made them sick?[/quote]

    It might have been, or it might have been what they saw or encountered while they were under the temple.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    I wish they had told us what behaviors made Rousseau believe they were sick – so sick that she had to kill them. WHAT HAPPENED IN THE HOLE!!! I can’t help wondering if they came out of the hole telling fantastical sounding tales of things they had seen there, and Danielle thought they had LOST it?! Maybe they weren’t actually “sick”. (yes I know Robert also tried to kill her, but she HAD killed the other men, and she HAD just been pointing a gun at HIM afterall :)
    Question: I woke up this morning wondering if Montand was calling out in ENGLISH that he was OK (but hurt) down in the hole? I don’t remember him speaking English, and wouldn’t expect him to call out to his French friends in anything but French, but I am remembering that he did – anyone remember? If he did, it would confirm a smokie trick. (I wish I had a DVR!!)

  412. Rita says:

    There seems to be a big “free will” element at play here. Christian wouldn’t/couldn’t help Locke get up (as a physician, you would think his instincts would be to help him). Ben won’t/can’t tell anyone things he knows, which it SEEMS would make it easier for everyone – perhaps in order to not contaminate “free will”? Ben had to bring people to the voodoo math priestess, who came of their own free will perhaps. (even if under false pretenses :)
    Others of you have suggested that if Ben would just TELL people what is going on, they might be more likely to go along with him, but he NEVER tells – maybe HE ISN’T ALLOWED TO so as to not mess up free will. Like people have to choose to do something, based on gut, not based on knowledge. Just thinking out loud.
    It seems that if they ARE really grooming Locke as a leader, this is how they are grooming him. No one ever really tells him anything – just keep making him figure it all out on his own – looking for gut response maybe. He keeps choosing the path that someone else suggests to him, but not necessarily the right path – like they want him to figure that out himself and go with what HIS gut is telling him. THEN he can lead.

  413. Rita says:

    OK, one more thing (I was so busy yesterday I had no time to post – so here it is all at once from me!):
    To those who suggested that Daniel might be Charlotte’s father – remember that she grew up for awhile on the island WITH her dad, she would know him, recognize him. He memory of Dan being there was not “you were my daddy” – it was “a scary man – I think it was you” who told her to never come back to the island.

    GREAT IDEAS HERE EVERYONE! Keep the ideas flowing!

  414. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314253"]There seems to be a big “free will” element at play here. Christian wouldn’t/couldn’t help Locke get up (as a physician, you would think his instincts would be to help him). Ben won’t/can’t tell anyone things he knows, which it SEEMS would make it easier for everyone – perhaps in order to not contaminate “free will”? Ben had to bring people to the voodoo math priestess, who came of their own free will perhaps. (even if under false pretenses :)
    Others of you have suggested that if Ben would just TELL people what is going on, they might be more likely to go along with him, but he NEVER tells – maybe HE ISN’T ALLOWED TO so as to not mess up free will. Like people have to choose to do something, based on gut, not based on knowledge. Just thinking out loud.
    It seems that if they ARE really grooming Locke as a leader, this is how they are grooming him. No one ever really tells him anything – just keep making him figure it all out on his own – looking for gut response maybe. He keeps choosing the path that someone else suggests to him, but not necessarily the right path – like they want him to figure that out himself and go with what HIS gut is telling him. THEN he can lead.[/quote]

    Hi, Rita–nice morning musing!

    Here’s my take on a few of the points you raised–

    Christian not helping: it could be a TEST of John’s will, or it could be that Christian is not capable of corporeal action.

    Ben not telling all he knows: not in his nature, he always needs a few cards held close to his chest, I think that’s just the way he is. And he was, I think, afraid of Jacob, if I recall, jealous that John ‘heard’, saw, that shadow of the Great Man, or whatever Jacob is (maybe a being stuck outside time and space or in its vortex). Ben’s agenda may have changed since he left the Island, maybe Hawking changed it for him.

    Locke’s leadership: well, I wonder if Alpert, the non-leader but always there, is playing him. If the Island is playing him, preying on his heart’s desire. They certainly don’t entrust him with much in the way of info! Puppet on a lonely string? uh, yeah, too much Cold Play.

    Free Will v. Fate–there are conflicting messages about this throughout the show, but I think it’s more slanted to Man of Science v. Man of Faith, whatever that episode was titled. Locke is a man of Faith, and he clearly needs to believe in something, NEEDS it, and that overshadows his ability to question the value of what’s behind his Faith. He believes that in doing what [he perceives] ‘The Island’ wants him to do, he is fulfilling his destiny, and that gives his life meaning and purpose.

    So he gives up his judgment, lets it be subsumed by his Faith, lets his obsession lead to Boone’s death, and kills random chicks, all in the course of his NEED. Even his moments of doubt are part of the pilgrims path. Now he’s found IT–the Island that he loves wants him to leave in order to save it. He doesn’t question the validity of this, or the method he’s receiving the message, or the good intentions of the mysterious Jacob.

    Because he NEEDS to believe. And he is willing to sacrifice all for that.

    Faith is a powerful thing, and it can blind you to the truth, or lead you to it. The jury’s out on what John’s choices will ultimately lead him to.

    Cheers, Liz

  415. LizS says:

    Have y’all discussed Christian symbolism? Sorry if you already went there in previous times–I just thought it was an interesting frame of the Church where Madame Hawking is doing her calculations, juju, metaphysical math, whatever. The Good Shepherd Himself, arms open, inviting the faithful to worship.

    Hmm. We have all the philosophical giants–Rousseau, Locke, et al, the science giants-Hawking (I know there were a few others, can’t pull ‘em out at the moment), and the Sheppards….Christian, Jack, & Claire. 3’s a big number in Christian Symbolism.

    Hmm.

    Faith, Sacrifice, The Good–and what they mean to modern man (Locke-philosopher-some kinda savant, or fool, maybe, which would also have its place in the scheme of things— Jack’s confidence in medicine/science, which doesn’t ground him, his struggles to find his center and the place where he can act from, his apparent resignation to the ‘fact’ he needs to go back to the dreaded Island ((well, otherwise we’d have no show)) his love for Kate and overcoming the obstacles to winning her, blah, blah)

    Good be another layer of meaning, or kitchen-sink-ism. Any thoughts?

    Cheers, Liz

  416. dealer says:

    first off locke is not a fool.

    second ben needs to go back to being the “bad” guy.

    third we need protagonists and antagonists on this show again. ever since ben became the “good” guy we’ve been missing the age old recipe of good vs. evil for a good story. that ben’s outburst was so so lame.

    if ben is going to stay “good” then someone needs to step up and be “bad”, badder than ben ever was. unfortunately there isn’t enough time left to develop widmore into that kind of bad.

    fourth we need to have someone not change their goddang minds every other episode!!! sun was ohh so convinced against ben…poof!!! that anger is gone. sayid was ohh so convinced about ben…poof!!! gone!!! can anyone on this show have or show some conviction please??? there IS something called intuition and the writers have given NO CREDIT to intuition only to friggin time travelers. it’s not the same thing.

    question:
    how did locke die? did ben kill locke? and how did everyone up here know that faraday’s mother is that weird lady? i probly read it but i forgot.

    btw this season makes me want to go back and watch rest of the seasons.

  417. LizS says:

    ALSO, and then I’m shutting up, promise, the Faith-Hope-Love triangle, and the ‘greatest of these is Love’

    Is the ability to Love, and be loved, going to count for anything in the ultimate smack-down of this show?

    Already, Love saved Desmond. And Penny’s Faith in him saved him, despite all her doubts.

    Love Des & Pen, Happy Valentine’s Day! just about

  418. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314268"]first off locke is not a fool.

    [/quote]
    Well, we can hope that will prove out! He’s done some questionable things, and there’s no proof that his faith is placed in the right things/beings.

    For me, his character was trashed last year, and I’m not quite over that.

  419. Rita says:

    [quote comment="314268"]
    …fourth we need to have someone not change their goddang minds every other episode!!! sun was ohh so convinced against ben…poof!!! that anger is gone. sayid was ohh so convinced about ben…poof!!! gone!!! can anyone on this show have or show some conviction please???
    [/quote]
    _________________________
    I hear you, and I think that we are MEANT to feel their frustration. I see it as not so much flip-flopping as being VERY conflicted. They never have been able to know who to trust, who not to trust.

  420. shellonius funk says:

    i think there is a portal on the island that goes to tunisia.
    all of charotte’s carthage talk made me look into it. “Polybius wrote in the sixth book of his History that the Carthaginians were “more exercised in maritime affairs than any other people.”

    AND…this was the clencher for me…
    there was a rivalry with Hanno “Magnus”.

    MAGNUS HANSO anyone????!!!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Carthage#Hanno_.22Magnus.22

  421. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314252"]I wish they had told us what behaviors made Rousseau believe they were sick – so sick that she had to kill them. WHAT HAPPENED IN THE HOLE!!! I can’t help wondering if they came out of the hole telling fantastical sounding tales of things they had seen there, and Danielle thought they had LOST it?! Maybe they weren’t actually “sick”. (yes I know Robert also tried to kill her, but she HAD killed the other men, and she HAD just been pointing a gun at HIM afterall :)
    Question: I woke up this morning wondering if Montand was calling out in ENGLISH that he was OK (but hurt) down in the hole? I don’t remember him speaking English, and wouldn’t expect him to call out to his French friends in anything but French, but I am remembering that he did – anyone remember? If he did, it would confirm a smokie trick. (I wish I had a DVR!!)[/quote]

    I thought the same thing about the “sickness” myself.

    I think you are correct about Montand calling out in English from the hole! I haven’t watch the episode again, and the transcript on LOSTpedia has only Act 1 so far. Hmmmm.

    : ) P

  422. K.C. says:

    So an emerging theme seems to be: can the future be changed? So far it seems it can’t, and even people with some experience with time are futilly trying. Whidmore can’t stop Des and Penny getting together ; Daniel can’t save Charlotte. But maybe that’s Ben and Locke’s ultimate goal–to actually change future events.

  423. duke says:

    [quote comment="314196"][quote comment="314156"]The last paragraph is directly quoted from the ew.com article. You should be ashamed that you cannot come up with ideas yourself.[/quote]

    —-
    Oh duke; STFU.
    No one elected you Hall monitor.
    Don’t get your panties all soiled over nothing.
    Jeez, what a crybaby. Oh, the shaaaaame![/quote]
    Just pointing out that that guy stole his ideas directly from ew.com. Why are you defending such a moron? It had nothing to do with you. Idiot.

  424. Jaime says:

    [quote comment="314155"][quote comment="314063"]Regarding the wheel chamber that Locke fell in to… it was interesting how they shot it. It seemed to be a reversal of the chamber that Ben was in – almost a mirror image – as if instead of it being the same chamber, we were looking at what was on the other side of Ben’s donkey wheel. .

    Check out Ben’s face when he sees Desmond outside of the church- it’s like a light bulb suddenly goes off in his head. As the one person who can change things, Desmond instantly becomes plan B. Three years of coordination and effort, and Ben’s only 2 for 6. But with Desmond going back to the island, maybe that doesn’t even matter. Ben looks completely astounded to see him. I think this marks the first time Ben even speaks to Desmond. And as he brings him in to see Hawking, Desmond suddenly becomes their ace in the hole.

    Remember when Rousseau totally freaked out when she saw Jin again on the beach? ”I saw you disappear!”
    In her shock, I saw a simple answer to the time travel noodle-cooker that many of you have been puzzling over since last week, Did the French Lady recognize Jin when she first met the castaways in Season 1? The answer could very well be: Does it matter? For Rousseau, Reappearing Jin was one more scary, inexplicable thing in a scary, inexplicable situation that was about to become a way of life. By the time their lives intersected once more in her future timeline, seeing Jin again (if she even recognized him), the significance probably just bounced off her. ”Oh. You again. Whatever.”[/quote]
    You totally stole your comments from Doc Jensen at ew.com at least have the courtesy to tell where you got if from and stop taking credit for someone else’s work.[/quote]
    *************************************************
    hey now, I by no means am trying to “steal” anyones work If i find something that is worth sharing or having a debate/discussion about i will share it. And if you look back through the posts i do say that “i can’t take cred for certain topics. But thanks Lost police for staying on top of it.

  425. K-Mac says:

    [quote comment="314262"]Have y’all discussed Christian symbolism? Sorry if you already went there in previous times–I just thought it was an interesting frame of the Church where Madame Hawking is doing her calculations, juju, metaphysical math, whatever. The Good Shepherd Himself, arms open, inviting the faithful to worship.

    Hmm. We have all the philosophical giants–Rousseau, Locke, et al, the science giants-Hawking (I know there were a few others, can’t pull ‘em out at the moment), and the Sheppards….Christian, Jack, & Claire. 3’s a big number in Christian Symbolism.

    Hmm.

    Faith, Sacrifice, The Good–and what they mean to modern man (Locke-philosopher-some kinda savant, or fool, maybe, which would also have its place in the scheme of things— Jack’s confidence in medicine/science, which doesn’t ground him, his struggles to find his center and the place where he can act from, his apparent resignation to the ‘fact’ he needs to go back to the dreaded Island ((well, otherwise we’d have no show)) his love for Kate and overcoming the obstacles to winning her, blah, blah)

    Good be another layer of meaning, or kitchen-sink-ism. Any thoughts?

    Cheers, Liz[/quote]
    Good catch on the Christian symbolism. It underlies many themes of the show, for example, Locke’s sacrifice to save the people on the Island, Jack’s last name is Sheppard and he is/was the leader of the survivors. How people don’t die in dangerous situations because the Island’s purpose for those people have not yet ended and when their purposes is fulfilled, they die. The fact that some many people of Oceanic 815 survived the crash in the way that it happened suggests that there is a supernatural force that caused it to happened, and saved those people for a reason. In the previous episode, Sawyer asked Locke why he didn’t go tell himself at the hatch to avoid all the pain he went through and Locke said he had to go through that pain in order to get to where he is now–a belief that everything happens for a reason, a Chistian view of their life journey, etc.

  426. Jaime says:

    [quote comment="314156"]The last paragraph is directly quoted from the ew.com article. You should be ashamed that you cannot come up with ideas yourself.[/quote]
    ***************************************************

    Ok so i guess i will preface the discussion with “this is from EW.online” . Its not as though people praise me on my thoughts and i gratuitously take the compliments. So ashamed i am not, i love doing research on certain topics that we are all discussing and throwing out ideas. I definitely have my own theories on the ins and outs of the show and I share those as well. Whats the need for the harshness. Don’t take yourself so seriously. You my friend are in need a a serious LAA meeting.

  427. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="314262"]Have y’all discussed Christian symbolism? Sorry if you already went there in previous times–I just thought it was an interesting frame of the Church where Madame Hawking is doing her calculations, juju, metaphysical math, whatever. The Good Shepherd Himself, arms open, inviting the faithful to worship.

    Hmm. We have all the philosophical giants–Rousseau, Locke, et al, the science giants-Hawking (I know there were a few others, can’t pull ‘em out at the moment), and the Sheppards….Christian, Jack, & Claire. 3’s a big number in Christian Symbolism.

    Hmm.

    Faith, Sacrifice, The Good–and what they mean to modern man (Locke-philosopher-some kinda savant, or fool, maybe, which would also have its place in the scheme of things— Jack’s confidence in medicine/science, which doesn’t ground him, his struggles to find his center and the place where he can act from, his apparent resignation to the ‘fact’ he needs to go back to the dreaded Island ((well, otherwise we’d have no show)) his love for Kate and overcoming the obstacles to winning her, blah, blah)

    Good be another layer of meaning, or kitchen-sink-ism. Any thoughts?

    Cheers, Liz[/quote]
    I mentioned last week or the week before that I was revising my view on the “Man of Science Man of Faith” episode. Originally it seemed that Jack was the man of science and Locke the man of faith, but now I think that in the end Jack SHEPHERD will be the man of faith.

  428. duke says:

    I think it is very obvious that throughout the show they have showed us that Locke is someone who NEEDS to feel wanted. He will do/act anyway that he thinks will endear him to the person and/or group that he is actively participating in. He lived on the commune and got manipulated by the undercover cop. He got manipulated out of his kidney by his father. Ben manipulated him into numerous things while being held prisoner and then manipulated him into blowing up the submarine. He may now be getting manipulated by the island/Jacob/Alpert whoever is pulling the strings. They realize that he has this NEED and will do whatever is necessary to “fit in” or be loved so they use that to get him to do their dirty work. I do not believe that he is DESTINED to lead the others but is being played by those in charge to carry out their tasks.

  429. Jaime says:

    [quote comment="314297"][quote comment="314196"][quote comment="314156"]The last paragraph is directly quoted from the ew.com article. You should be ashamed that you cannot come up with ideas yourself.[/quote]

    —-
    Oh duke; STFU.
    No one elected you Hall monitor.
    Don’t get your panties all soiled over nothing.
    Jeez, what a crybaby. Oh, the shaaaaame![/quote]
    Just pointing out that that guy stole his ideas directly from ew.com. Why are you defending such a moron? It had nothing to do with you. Idiot.[/quote]
    ************************
    Thanks Bobola,
    And Duke, a moron? Is that really necessary? Last thing I’ll say about this topic. I never stated that they were MY ideas. Just put them out for discussion. Oh, and I’m a girl not a guy. :) Happy Friday to you, try to smile a bit it may help

  430. duke says:

    [quote comment="314301"][quote comment="314156"]The last paragraph is directly quoted from the ew.com article. You should be ashamed that you cannot come up with ideas yourself.[/quote]
    ***************************************************

    Ok so i guess i will preface the discussion with “this is from EW.online” . Its not as though people praise me on my thoughts and i gratuitously take the compliments. So ashamed i am not, i love doing research on certain topics that we are all discussing and throwing out ideas. I definitely have my own theories on the ins and outs of the show and I share those as well. Whats the need for the harshness. Don’t take yourself so seriously. You my friend are in need a a serious LAA meeting.[/quote]
    Not taking myself too seriously. If you come up with YOUR own idea and lay it out there that is one thing but STEALING someone else’s and passing it of as your’s is just juvenile. Doing research and coming up with ideas is fine but that isn’t what you did. You quoted word for word what someone else’s idea was and said it as if it were your own.

  431. duke says:

    Jamie and Bobola,

    I wasn’t trying to offend anyone just state where you got certain things so that we can check out the entire article. In my opinion, it just looks bad when you plagarize someone else’s work. At least have the decency to re-word it next time. It is really no big deal. Just pointing it out to the masses. If you didn’t feel bad about it you wouldn’t be so pissed. You got busted and admitted it so move on.

  432. Miraks says:

    OK, here are some thoughts. I’m not sure where this is going, but maybe someone can help.
    Jack
    Pre-Island: Abusing drugs/ alcohol, paranoid behavior pushes away the woman he loves.
    On Island: Leader, confident, strong.
    Post-Island: Abusing drugs/ alcohol, paranoid behavior pushes away the woman he loves.

    Hurley
    Pre-Island: Followed by bad luck, in the loony bin.
    On Island: Good luck (VW van started), productive (saves Losties during conflict with Others on beach).
    Post-Island: Followed by bad luck, in the loony bin.

    Sayid
    Pre-Island: Assassin and torturer.
    On Island: Repentant, leader.
    Post-Island: Assasin and torturer.

    Kate
    Pre-Island: On the run, making the wrong decisions (and getting people like her childhood sweetheart killed in the process).
    On Island: One of the more competent people, trusted and respected.
    Post-Island: On the run (for now, plus why did she have a stack of “ready to take off on short notice” cash?), making the wrong decisions (?).

    Sun:
    This one is a little complicated, but she seems to have turned into someone motivated and driven by revenge and hate, willing to hurt and kill people. Before island time she condenmed her father and Jin for doing the same/ or similar thing.

    This all seems to be connected somehow, and I’m sure there is some connection to why the O6 must/ or eventually will return.

  433. Jaime says:

    [quote comment="314306"]Jamie and Bobola,

    I wasn’t trying to offend anyone just state where you got certain things so that we can check out the entire article. In my opinion, it just looks bad when you plagarize someone else’s work. At least have the decency to re-word it next time. It is really no big deal. Just pointing it out to the masses. If you didn’t feel bad about it you wouldn’t be so pissed. You got busted and admitted it so move on.[/quote]
    ********************************************

    Not pissed at all. I didn’t get “busted” cause i didn’t do anything wrong. I ALWAYS state when i can’t take the cred and i will continue doing the same thing. So that you may rest easy my cranky one, i will preface all things from other sites from here on out even if its a minuscule piece of info. I have been coming to this site for the last 4 seasons and have been a part of MANY wonderful discussions so i know the rules. You say you don’t mean to offend but you call me a “moron” and Bobola and “idiot”. Its people like you that chase others away. This will be the last time i comment (to you at least). I do apologies the the rest of you for having to read and deal with this nonsense. On with the important conversations :)

  434. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314309"]OK, here are some thoughts. I’m not sure where this is going, but maybe someone can help.
    Jack
    Pre-Island: Abusing drugs/ alcohol, paranoid behavior pushes away the woman he loves.
    On Island: Leader, confident, strong.
    Post-Island: Abusing drugs/ alcohol, paranoid behavior pushes away the woman he loves.

    Hurley
    Pre-Island: Followed by bad luck, in the loony bin.
    On Island: Good luck (VW van started), productive (saves Losties during conflict with Others on beach).
    Post-Island: Followed by bad luck, in the loony bin.

    Sayid
    Pre-Island: Assassin and torturer.
    On Island: Repentant, leader.
    Post-Island: Assasin and torturer.

    Kate
    Pre-Island: On the run, making the wrong decisions (and getting people like her childhood sweetheart killed in the process).
    On Island: One of the more competent people, trusted and respected.
    Post-Island: On the run (for now, plus why did she have a stack of “ready to take off on short notice” cash?), making the wrong decisions (?).

    Sun:
    This one is a little complicated, but she seems to have turned into someone motivated and driven by revenge and hate, willing to hurt and kill people. Before island time she condenmed her father and Jin for doing the same/ or similar thing.

    This all seems to be connected somehow, and I’m sure there is some connection to why the O6 must/ or eventually will return.[/quote]
    Agree Miraks. I’ll say…course correction. Locke has said it before, they are supposed to be there, they weren’t supposed to leave.

  435. Jaime says:

    [quote comment="314309"]OK, here are some thoughts. I’m not sure where this is going, but maybe someone can help.
    Jack
    Pre-Island: Abusing drugs/ alcohol, paranoid behavior pushes away the woman he loves.
    On Island: Leader, confident, strong.
    Post-Island: Abusing drugs/ alcohol, paranoid behavior pushes away the woman he loves.

    Hurley
    Pre-Island: Followed by bad luck, in the loony bin.
    On Island: Good luck (VW van started), productive (saves Losties during conflict with Others on beach).
    Post-Island: Followed by bad luck, in the loony bin.

    Sayid
    Pre-Island: Assassin and torturer.
    On Island: Repentant, leader.
    Post-Island: Assasin and torturer.

    Kate
    Pre-Island: On the run, making the wrong decisions (and getting people like her childhood sweetheart killed in the process).
    On Island: One of the more competent people, trusted and respected.
    Post-Island: On the run (for now, plus why did she have a stack of “ready to take off on short notice” cash?), making the wrong decisions (?).

    Sun:
    This one is a little complicated, but she seems to have turned into someone motivated and driven by revenge and hate, willing to hurt and kill people. Before island time she condenmed her father and Jin for doing the same/ or similar thing.

    This all seems to be connected somehow, and I’m sure there is some connection to why the O6 must/ or eventually will return.[/quote]

    Shall i even say the word….destiny. Locke may be on to something. Or else it could be simply that the island is, as he would say, “magical”

  436. Rita says:

    [quote comment="314309"]
    Sun:
    This one is a little complicated, but she seems to have turned into someone motivated and driven by revenge and hate, willing to hurt and kill people. Before island time she condenmed her father and Jin for doing the same/ or similar thing.
    [/quote]
    _________________________________
    How about Sun:
    Pre-island: manipulative, cunning, liar and adulter.
    On-island: friend to many, reliable, helpful, repentant and loving wife.
    Post-island: manipulative, cunning, schemer, would-be killer.

  437. kindly says:

    Have any of you read this person’s theory?

    http://timelooptheory.com/the_timeline.html

  438. Jaime says:

    [quote comment="314311"][quote comment="314309"]OK, here are some thoughts. I’m not sure where this is going, but maybe someone can help.
    Jack
    Pre-Island: Abusing drugs/ alcohol, paranoid behavior pushes away the woman he loves.
    On Island: Leader, confident, strong.
    Post-Island: Abusing drugs/ alcohol, paranoid behavior pushes away the woman he loves.

    Hurley
    Pre-Island: Followed by bad luck, in the loony bin.
    On Island: Good luck (VW van started), productive (saves Losties during conflict with Others on beach).
    Post-Island: Followed by bad luck, in the loony bin.

    Sayid
    Pre-Island: Assassin and torturer.
    On Island: Repentant, leader.
    Post-Island: Assasin and torturer.

    Kate
    Pre-Island: On the run, making the wrong decisions (and getting people like her childhood sweetheart killed in the process).
    On Island: One of the more competent people, trusted and respected.
    Post-Island: On the run (for now, plus why did she have a stack of “ready to take off on short notice” cash?), making the wrong decisions (?).

    Sun:
    This one is a little complicated, but she seems to have turned into someone motivated and driven by revenge and hate, willing to hurt and kill people. Before island time she condenmed her father and Jin for doing the same/ or similar thing.

    This all seems to be connected somehow, and I’m sure there is some connection to why the O6 must/ or eventually will return.[/quote]
    Agree Miraks. I’ll say…course correction. Locke has said it before, they are supposed to be there, they weren’t supposed to leave.[/quote]
    ***********************************************

    Shall i even say the word….destiny. Locke may be on to something. Or else it could be simply that the island is, as he would say, “magical”[/quote]
    *************************************
    Oooh yes Hammer, even better

  439. ESB says:

    [quote comment="314306"]Jamie and Bobola,

    I wasn’t trying to offend anyone just state where you got certain things so that we can check out the entire article. In my opinion, it just looks bad when you plagarize someone else’s work. At least have the decency to re-word it next time. It is really no big deal. Just pointing it out to the masses. If you didn’t feel bad about it you wouldn’t be so pissed. You got busted and admitted it so move on.[/quote]

    umm, i think some of you take yourselves, and this blog way to seriously…let’s try to remember that it’s just a tv show…a tv show WE ALL enjoy…;)

  440. ESB says:

    oh and ps- i think Jaime is cool, haha ;)

  441. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314316"][*************************************
    Oooh yes Hammer, even better[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Well, I guess course correction and destiny are related in this case. GMTA.

    p.s. Avoid temptation. :)

  442. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="314309"]OK, here are some thoughts. I’m not sure where this is going, but maybe someone can help.
    Jack
    Pre-Island: Abusing drugs/ alcohol, paranoid behavior pushes away the woman he loves.
    On Island: Leader, confident, strong.
    Post-Island: Abusing drugs/ alcohol, paranoid behavior pushes away the woman he loves.

    Hurley
    Pre-Island: Followed by bad luck, in the loony bin.
    On Island: Good luck (VW van started), productive (saves Losties during conflict with Others on beach).
    Post-Island: Followed by bad luck, in the loony bin.

    Sayid
    Pre-Island: Assassin and torturer.
    On Island: Repentant, leader.
    Post-Island: Assasin and torturer.

    Kate
    Pre-Island: On the run, making the wrong decisions (and getting people like her childhood sweetheart killed in the process).
    On Island: One of the more competent people, trusted and respected.
    Post-Island: On the run (for now, plus why did she have a stack of “ready to take off on short notice” cash?), making the wrong decisions (?).

    Sun:
    This one is a little complicated, but she seems to have turned into someone motivated and driven by revenge and hate, willing to hurt and kill people. Before island time she condenmed her father and Jin for doing the same/ or similar thing.

    This all seems to be connected somehow, and I’m sure there is some connection to why the O6 must/ or eventually will return.[/quote]

    The connection is obvious. They were nobody before the island and now they are nobody again. At least on the island they were SOMEBODY. I don’t understand why they were so damn desperate to get off and why they are so reluctant to go back. I wish everyday that I was on that island! I watch music videos on YouTube thinking I WANT TO BE SPECIAL! I want to crash on an island like that! It’s my DESTINY damnit!

  443. ESB says:

    [quote comment="314309"]OK, here are some thoughts. I’m not sure where this is going, but maybe someone can help.
    Jack
    Pre-Island: Abusing drugs/ alcohol, paranoid behavior pushes away the woman he loves.
    On Island: Leader, confident, strong.
    Post-Island: Abusing drugs/ alcohol, paranoid behavior pushes away the woman he loves.

    Hurley
    Pre-Island: Followed by bad luck, in the loony bin.
    On Island: Good luck (VW van started), productive (saves Losties during conflict with Others on beach).
    Post-Island: Followed by bad luck, in the loony bin.

    Sayid
    Pre-Island: Assassin and torturer.
    On Island: Repentant, leader.
    Post-Island: Assasin and torturer.

    Kate
    Pre-Island: On the run, making the wrong decisions (and getting people like her childhood sweetheart killed in the process).
    On Island: One of the more competent people, trusted and respected.
    Post-Island: On the run (for now, plus why did she have a stack of “ready to take off on short notice” cash?), making the wrong decisions (?).

    Sun:
    This one is a little complicated, but she seems to have turned into someone motivated and driven by revenge and hate, willing to hurt and kill people. Before island time she condenmed her father and Jin for doing the same/ or similar thing.

    This all seems to be connected somehow, and I’m sure there is some connection to why the O6 must/ or eventually will return.[/quote]

    *************************************

    to over simplify…it is interesting that in a lot ways, the Island seems to bring out the best in people, but back in the real world they can’t seem to escape from who they are…and it remoinds of the question (asked by Swayer, i think) why would you want to leave? why would you want to go back to the ‘real world’? hmmm…;)

  444. ESB says:

    sorry Tasha, i was typing and didn’t read your post until i posted mine…not trying to be repetitive…and, wow does my typing suck…;)

  445. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314323"][quote comment="314309"][/quote]

    *************************************

    to over simplify…it is interesting that in a lot ways, the Island seems to bring out the best in people, but back in the real world they can’t seem to escape from who they are…and it remoinds of the question (asked by Swayer, i think) why would you want to leave? why would you want to go back to the ‘real world’? hmmm…;)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    Well, in their defense, their lives have been threatened on a regular basis. :)

  446. Rita says:

    [quote comment="314321"][quote comment="314309"][/quote]

    …I don’t understand why they were so damn desperate to get off and why they are so reluctant to go back. I wish everyday that I was on that island!… [/quote]

    I think that at first everyone thought they were SUPPOSE to want off the island. You know, your plane crashes, you are suppose to want to get back to your normal life. A few people (Rose, Locke) figured out early that they DIDN’T WANT what they were suppose to want, that they wanted to stay on the island. The others didn’t understand that at all. My point? :) It’s about CHOICE, Free Will again. Being able to think outside the box, and to not just want what you think you are suppose to want, but to think for yourself. Those who get this are the real leaders – the ones the island has “healed”.

  447. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314323"]to over simplify…it is interesting that in a lot ways, the Island seems to bring out the best in people, but back in the real world they can’t seem to escape from who they are…and it remoinds of the question (asked by Swayer, i think) why would you want to leave? why would you want to go back to the ‘real world’? hmmm…;)[/quote]

    Well I can think of a few reasons they might like to get back to civilization: grocery stores, competent indoor plumbing, lack of smoke monsters, predictable predators (versus Others / polar bears / mercenaries and again, smoke monsters). Additionally, I think there is an innate need in most people to return to what is familiar, especially after a time of peril. EVEN if that familiar is NOT good. An example of this is severely abused children who want ONLY to return to the home they know, despite the abuse perpetrated there.

    Having said all that, I certainly understand why Sawyer was willing to stay!

    : ) P

  448. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314315"]Have any of you read this person’s theory?

    http://timelooptheory.com/the_timeline.html%5B/quote%5D

    I have seen that before. I read it last season and though long winded, it had some good points. I have not re-read it since this season’s time traveling has occurred so I cannot comment on whether or not that person’s concept of time-travel was correct (with respect to D&C’s established “rules” thus far) or indeed, adapted since D&C’s rules have been more clearly defined.

    Thank you for reminding us about it!

    : ) P

  449. ESB says:

    PJ & Hammer,

    haha, good points and touche! ;)

  450. ESB says:

    [quote comment="314329"][quote comment="314323"]to over simplify…it is interesting that in a lot ways, the Island seems to bring out the best in people, but back in the real world they can’t seem to escape from who they are…and it remoinds of the question (asked by Swayer, i think) why would you want to leave? why would you want to go back to the ‘real world’? hmmm…;)[/quote]

    Well I can think of a few reasons they might like to get back to civilization: grocery stores, competent indoor plumbing, lack of smoke monsters, predictable predators (versus Others / polar bears / mercenaries and again, smoke monsters). Additionally, I think there is an innate need in most people to return to what is familiar, especially after a time of peril. EVEN if that familiar is NOT good. An example of this is severely abused children who want ONLY to return to the home they know, despite the abuse perpetrated there.

    Having said all that, I certainly understand why Sawyer was willing to stay!

    : ) P[/quote]

    of all of them, Kate is the one that should’ve wanted to leave the least…at least i’d personally rather be on that island, then rotting in a prison cell…which is where she thought she’d be headed…haha, luckily that was not in the script and she beat the rap…;)

  451. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="314329"][quote comment="314323"]to over simplify…it is interesting that in a lot ways, the Island seems to bring out the best in people, but back in the real world they can’t seem to escape from who they are…and it remoinds of the question (asked by Swayer, i think) why would you want to leave? why would you want to go back to the ‘real world’? hmmm…;)[/quote]

    Well I can think of a few reasons they might like to get back to civilization: grocery stores, competent indoor plumbing, lack of smoke monsters, predictable predators (versus Others / polar bears / mercenaries and again, smoke monsters). Additionally, I think there is an innate need in most people to return to what is familiar, especially after a time of peril. EVEN if that familiar is NOT good. An example of this is severely abused children who want ONLY to return to the home they know, despite the abuse perpetrated there.

    Having said all that, I certainly understand why Sawyer was willing to stay!

    : ) P[/quote]

    I am kinda an outdoorsy (is that a word?) person. I love going camping and being out without technology. I like to believe when Dec 21, 2012 hits I am going to be one of the people that survives…LOL. Anyhow, so if I were on that plane, I would so totally never want to leave. Also, I feel like I can relate to those people…I don’t have the greatest life. I mean I love my life, but I have issues and things about me that nobody knows. I also love history and mystery.

    I think Smoky would love me and want me to stay!

  452. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314333"][quote comment="314329"][quote comment="314323"] Also, I feel like I can relate to those people…I don’t have the greatest life. I mean I love my life, but I have issues and things about me that nobody knows. I also love history and mystery.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Sorry, we only councel LOST aholics here. JK :)

  453. Miraks says:

    Personally, if I came back after 108 days on the island (and thus after the 2004 election) I probably would not have minded going back for a few years at least LOL

  454. Miraks says:

    Back to the is Ben/ Jacob/ Locke good/ bad discussion.
    I’m starting to agree with people who are a bit sceptical of Jacob. Jacob(what or who ever he is) does seem to be on the same team as Christian, who never struck me as the most trustworthy person. Also, Claire has been hanging out with them which led her to panic at the thought of Aaron being brought back. Something is fishy there.

  455. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314337"]Personally, if I came back after 108 days on the island (and thus after the 2004 election) I probably would not have minded going back for a few years at least LOL[/quote]
    +++++++++
    War is keeping that island running. During peace time, they couldn’t even have babies, now with war, there’s kids coming back!

    LOL….ROTFL….

  456. duke says:

    I believe that Ben chose Locke because he knew his history and therefore could manipulate him into doing whatever Ben wanted him to do. He is not the chosen leader.

  457. ESB says:

    [quote comment="314345"]I believe that Ben chose Locke because he knew his history and therefore could manipulate him into doing whatever Ben wanted him to do. He is not the chosen leader.[/quote]

    i totally agree…Locke is the chosen puppet…;)

  458. K.C. says:

    Locke is definitely naive about a lot of things, but he has a gift and can hear Jacob. I think Jacob won’t let Ben take total advantage of Locke (even though he’s dead off the island). Locke will be redeemed.

  459. ESB says:

    i personally believe that at the end of this show, Locke will be a beaten and broken man, used and abused by fate and forces he never quite understood…alone and full of doubt and despair…there might be redemption for some, but not that one…

    haha, then again i could be TOTALLY wrong…guess we’ll see…you all have a good weekend…;)

  460. The Wrz says:

    [quote comment="314345"]I believe that Ben chose Locke because he knew his history and therefore could manipulate him into doing whatever Ben wanted him to do. He is not the chosen leader.[/quote]
    ~~~~~~~~
    Ben has no choice over who takes over after him. He tried to thwart Locke by embarassing him in front of the group. But Alpert came to his aid. Ben has lost control of the island and is trying desperately to get it back. Thats why he turned the wheel instead of Locke, he knew what it would do.

  461. Jaime says:

    [quote comment="314174"]http://www.docarzt.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/the-numbers-transmission.mp3
    found this on Docartz blog site…suggesting that the voice you hear on the transmission from Rousseau’s teams radio is Hurley’s voice saying the numbers.. any thoughts???????[/quote]
    *********************************************

    There is further discussion now that it might be Frank Lapidus. It actually kind of sounds like him. What do you think geribnj?

  462. Rita says:

    [quote comment="314339"]Back to the is Ben/ Jacob/ Locke good/ bad discussion.
    I’m starting to agree with people who are a bit sceptical of Jacob. Jacob(what or who ever he is) does seem to be on the same team as Christian, who never struck me as the most trustworthy person. Also, Claire has been hanging out with them which led her to panic at the thought of Aaron being brought back. Something is fishy there.[/quote]
    __________________________________
    I agree that something is not right. Claire was VEHEMENT that Kate NOT bring Aaron back. Others have been warned by presumably dead people to NOT come back, though Charlie told Hurley TO come back. No consences of the dead.

  463. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314352"][quote comment="314339"]Back to the is Ben/ Jacob/ Locke good/ bad discussion.
    I’m starting to agree with people who are a bit sceptical of Jacob. Jacob(what or who ever he is) does seem to be on the same team as Christian, who never struck me as the most trustworthy person. Also, Claire has been hanging out with them which led her to panic at the thought of Aaron being brought back. Something is fishy there.[/quote]
    __________________________________
    I agree that something is not right. Claire was VEHEMENT that Kate NOT bring Aaron back. Others have been warned by presumably dead people to NOT come back, though Charlie told Hurley TO come back. No consences of the dead.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    That may because some are apparitions, some are manifestations. When they become whisperers, they may not be on the same ‘side’.

    Char told Jin that Sun or Ji or both are not to come back. Which side visited her?

    I am thinking that the Claire that Kate saw wasn’t Claire, but a manifestation. Why you ask? Because she had no problem with Christian at the cabin, in fact she was eerily content and new that John was going to move the island. Now Christian is helping John bring everyone back.

    What’s that you say? That was before Ben moved the island and screwed up the deal? Well yes, but that means that Aaron would have never left, so either way she was expecting Aaron to stay on the island. Hence, Kate’s Claire isn’t the real Claire…..I think.

  464. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314355"]What’s that you say? That was before Ben moved the island and screwed up the deal? Well yes, but that means that Aaron would have never left, so either way she was expecting Aaron to stay on the island. Hence, Kate’s Claire isn’t the real Claire…..I think.[/quote]

    And, if you remember, it was a DREAM that Kate had. Which means it is much less likely to be a visit from a whisperer, if, in fact, Claire IS a whisperer.

    My vote is manifestation / nightmare rather than true visit.

    : ) P

  465. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="314352"][quote comment="314339"]Back to the is Ben/ Jacob/ Locke good/ bad discussion.
    I’m starting to agree with people who are a bit sceptical of Jacob. Jacob(what or who ever he is) does seem to be on the same team as Christian, who never struck me as the most trustworthy person. Also, Claire has been hanging out with them which led her to panic at the thought of Aaron being brought back. Something is fishy there.[/quote]
    __________________________________
    I agree that something is not right. Claire was VEHEMENT that Kate NOT bring Aaron back. Others have been warned by presumably dead people to NOT come back, though Charlie told Hurley TO come back. No consences of the dead.[/quote]

    I have to disagree. Charlotte wasn’t dead yet when she said that. Also, it hasn’t been confirmed Claire is dead unless I missed that in a podcast or something….BUT I do agree it is creepy and makes you question it.

  466. DocH says:

    Hammer wrote: I am thinking that the Claire that Kate saw wasn’t Claire, but a manifestation.

    You got me thinking (bad Hammer!)… IF Smokey is pretending to be the voice of the armless French guy Smokey dragged in to the hole? Maybe Smokey has been “imitating” other people we have seen. If Smokey looks you in the eye, and then let’s you go/live… you are good to go. No impersonation act, etc… you might as well just join the Others/hostiles. Now, if Smokey met you and he still wants to kick your butt (drag Locke underground) – you probably aren’t the stellar human-being you thought you were.

    (Eko – dead, Juliet – alive, who else?

  467. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314356"][quote comment="314355"]What’s that you say? That was before Ben moved the island and screwed up the deal? Well yes, but that means that Aaron would have never left, so either way she was expecting Aaron to stay on the island. Hence, Kate’s Claire isn’t the real Claire…..I think.[/quote]

    And, if you remember, it was a DREAM that Kate had. Which means it is much less likely to be a visit from a whisperer, if, in fact, Claire IS a whisperer.

    My vote is manifestation / nightmare rather than true visit.

    : ) P[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    Agree with you.

  468. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314358"]Hammer wrote: I am thinking that the Claire that Kate saw wasn’t Claire, but a manifestation.

    You got me thinking (bad Hammer!)… IF Smokey is pretending to be the voice of the armless French guy Smokey dragged in to the hole? Maybe Smokey has been “imitating” other people we have seen. If Smokey looks you in the eye, and then let’s you go/live… you are good to go. No impersonation act, etc… you might as well just join the Others/hostiles. Now, if Smokey met you and he still wants to kick your butt (drag Locke underground) – you probably aren’t the stellar human-being you thought you were.

    (Eko – dead, Juliet – alive, who else?[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Yes, there was a podcast where D&C said of ‘visits’ like Yemi, wet Walt and Kate’s horse, etc. that some are manifestations (which I believe to be Smokey) and some are apparitions.

    So I think you are correct that Smokey is an imitator.

    But you left out our new scenario. What does it mean when he sends lets you go, but your are not quite yourself (French toast anyone?)? Since Alex was able to kill them, they weren’t manifestations, their bodies were killed.

  469. Hammer says:

    Oops. I said Alex but mean Danielle….Hammuedian slip.

  470. Jaime says:

    [quote comment="314358"]Hammer wrote: I am thinking that the Claire that Kate saw wasn’t Claire, but a manifestation.

    You got me thinking (bad Hammer!)… IF Smokey is pretending to be the voice of the armless French guy Smokey dragged in to the hole? Maybe Smokey has been “imitating” other people we have seen. If Smokey looks you in the eye, and then let’s you go/live… you are good to go. No impersonation act, etc… you might as well just join the Others/hostiles. Now, if Smokey met you and he still wants to kick your butt (drag Locke underground) – you probably aren’t the stellar human-being you thought you were.

    (Eko – dead, Juliet – alive, who else?[/quote]
    *****************************************************
    Kate was handcuffed to Juliet when Smokey flashed them. They hid in the trees to “escape”

  471. Rita says:

    [quote comment="314358"]Hammer wrote: I am thinking that the Claire that Kate saw wasn’t Claire, but a manifestation.

    You got me thinking (bad Hammer!)… IF Smokey is pretending to be the voice of the armless French guy Smokey dragged in to the hole? Maybe Smokey has been “imitating” other people we have seen. If Smokey looks you in the eye, and then let’s you go/live… you are good to go. No impersonation act, etc… you might as well just join the Others/hostiles. Now, if Smokey met you and he still wants to kick your butt (drag Locke underground) – you probably aren’t the stellar human-being you thought you were.

    (Eko – dead, Juliet – alive, who else?[/quote]
    _________________________________
    It seemed that Montand looked Smokey “in the eye” and turned his back on Smokey to see his group – it was THEN that Smokey grabbed him and dragged him through the jungle and into his hole. I guess you don’t turn your back on Smokey!

  472. Tasha says:

    Maybe Smokey is lonely so if he doesn’t want to kill you, then he drags you down his hole, turns into something or someone else, such as Jacob. Has a cup of coffee and tells the people the secret of the island. Then Free Will kicks in.

    They get out and…after that i don’t know. I kind of think I have second thoughts of whether Danielle’s team was really sick. He is acting a little nuts but she seemed crazy too. He might have known she was going to end up killing him so he wanted to kill her first. Horrible thing to do, but….I would like to see what happened in between the time they went down the hole and when she shot him. I was hoping that was what the whole episode was about and was kind of disappointed that we didn’t get too much out of it. OH WAIT! Of course we did! They answered questions that just brought up MORE questions!

  473. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="313996"]Conclusions from last night’s episode:
    – Russoeu was telling the truth about how she got on the island and what happened to her crew. She might be wrong about what exactly the “illness” was that led to their death, but overall she was right. I also think we now know- once and for all- that Alex was NOT Ben’s real daughter (it has been stated and shown over and over again by the writers, so let that horse be).

    – Ben was never supposed to move/ leave the island, Locke was. (But didn’t Locke say ” he wants YOU to move the island?” after visiting Jacob’s cabin?)

    – Ben had no idea that Hawkins is related to Farraday. He also was not expecting Dezmond to show up. I think that means only the O6 are supposed to go back, not EVERYONE that left.

    – I don’t think Charlotte is Annie- she and Ben would have recognized/ remembered each other. Also don’t see how she could be their daughter. Annie left when she was just a kid, too young to have left pregnant.[/quote]
    How do we know when Annie left?

  474. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="314080"][quote comment="314058"]If he indeed knows they need to stay on the island, why did he let Kate, Sayid and someone else (Hurley?) leave on the helicopter after Alpert shot Keamy last season? [/quote]

    I’ve thought about this, and the question as to why he let Walt leave. My guess is that he thought that if the island REALLY needed them to stay, that it would prevent them from leaving. Just like when Locke blew up the submarine.

    [quote comment="314058"]Along those same lines, why would he kill Keamy knowing he would also be killing everyone on the tanker? What if some of the people who are “important” to the island are on the tanker?[/quote]

    In this case, I don’t think Ben WAS thinking. I think he was too caught up in the grief and guilt that he let Alex die. But again, I expect that he also believed that if someone was SUPPOSED to live, the island would make sure that person did (Jin, for example). How many people have we seen survive the unsurvivable?

    : ) P[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    Perhaps Ben thought everyone on the freighter and the Helo would die when he killed Keamy and therefore, wouldn’t be leaving.

  475. Rita says:

    [quote comment="314376"][quote comment="314080"][quote comment="314058"] [/quote]
    [quote comment="314058"][/quote]
    [/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    Perhaps Ben thought everyone on the freighter and the Helo would die when he killed Keamy and therefore, wouldn’t be leaving.[/quote]
    ___________________________________
    Or, he doesn’t ever interfer with Free Will. He lets people do whatever they feel they need to do, no matter what he knows the consequences will be.

  476. Jamal says:

    Ok I have a couple of questions but I don’t know if they had been asked yet. I just want to know what other people are thinking.

    1. Rousseau had previously said that the others took her people. This past episode we see that she murdered them because they had been taken by the monster. Was that just a fluke or is that something that should be paid more attention??

    2. Desmond has met Eloise*,Daniel’s mother before. Is he going to be sent back to the island as well?

    3. Sun was already pregnant before she left the island so does it matter that she doesn’t have her daughter with her??

    4. Does anyone have any theories on how and why Jack’s father has become so pivotal?

  477. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="314383"]Ok I have a couple of questions but I don’t know if they had been asked yet. I just want to know what other people are thinking.

    1. Rousseau had previously said that the others took her people. This past episode we see that she murdered them because they had been taken by the monster. Was that just a fluke or is that something that should be paid more attention??

    2. Desmond has met Eloise*,Daniel’s mother before. Is he going to be sent back to the island as well?

    3. Sun was already pregnant before she left the island so does it matter that she doesn’t have her daughter with her??

    4. Does anyone have any theories on how and why Jack’s father has become so pivotal?[/quote]

    1. She didn’t say they took them. She said she killed them. The Others made them sick but in this last episode she says the monster did. So THAT may be a fluke:)

    2. I am guessing he is going to go back or it would be pretty boring. Penny will go back with him to find out about the place SHE was born, since Charles stole her like Ben took Alex. My last sentence is just my theory. (Maybe stole her from a crazy bug eyed father…hee hee.)

    3. I have no thoughts on this one…..

    4. I think Jack’s dad had some connection with the island before. Whether he is related or is Jacob, or just someone special. I think he was supposed to die to go back to the island just like Locke is. Now he is kinda like representing Jacob, like reincarnation. I think that his life and Locke’s will later be parrallel to eachother. Not sure if I am explaining this right. Best I can say is I think that since Locke is helping the island, the island is going to give something back to him…everlasting life. I think Jack’s dad has done something in the same manner. I think Richard did the same thing as well. These are just my opinions.

    3.

  478. Jamal says:

    [quote comment="314387"][quote comment="314383"]Ok I have a couple of questions but I don’t know if they had been asked yet. I just want to know what other people are thinking.

    1. Rousseau had previously said that the others took her people. This past episode we see that she murdered them because they had been taken by the monster. Was that just a fluke or is that something that should be paid more attention??

    2. Desmond has met Eloise*,Daniel’s mother before. Is he going to be sent back to the island as well?

    3. Sun was already pregnant before she left the island so does it matter that she doesn’t have her daughter with her??

    4. Does anyone have any theories on how and why Jack’s father has become so pivotal?[/quote]

    1. She didn’t say they took them. She said she killed them. The Others made them sick but in this last episode she says the monster did. So THAT may be a fluke:)

    2. I am guessing he is going to go back or it would be pretty boring. Penny will go back with him to find out about the place SHE was born, since Charles stole her like Ben took Alex. My last sentence is just my theory. (Maybe stole her from a crazy bug eyed father…hee hee.)

    3. I have no thoughts on this one…..

    4. I think Jack’s dad had some connection with the island before. Whether he is related or is Jacob, or just someone special. I think he was supposed to die to go back to the island just like Locke is. Now he is kinda like representing Jacob, like reincarnation. I think that his life and Locke’s will later be parrallel to eachother. Not sure if I am explaining this right. Best I can say is I think that since Locke is helping the island, the island is going to give something back to him…everlasting life. I think Jack’s dad has done something in the same manner. I think Richard did the same thing as well. These are just my opinions.

    3.[/quote]
    Thanks so much… most of my friends don’t watch Lost and I have been a fan since day one. I usually don’t read the blogs justso that I can form my own ideas but this past episode really threw me. Thanks for your insight!!!

  479. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314383"]4. Does anyone have any theories on how and why Jack’s father has become so pivotal?[/quote]

    FWIW, I don’t think Christian Shepherd has BECOME pivotal, I believe he has been intrinsic to the baseline of this show since hour one.

    It was NOT a mistake that he was a prominent part of the pilot, IMO.

    : ) P

  480. gmta leah says:

    [quote comment="314059"]Can someone tell me any of the good things Ben has done, that aren’t self serving?[/quote]
    ///////////////////
    he saved locke from being crushed under the blast door in the hatch!.

  481. gmta leah says:

    [quote comment="314319"][quote comment="314316"][*************************************
    Oooh yes Hammer, even better[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Well, I guess course correction and destiny are related in this case. GMTA.

    p.s. Avoid temptation. :)[/quote]
    ///////////////////////////
    yes? hammer.

  482. gmta leah says:

    phew !read to here and its only saturday morning . happy valentines day peeps.x

  483. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314397"][quote comment="314319"][quote comment="314316"][*************************************
    Oooh yes Hammer, even better[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Well, I guess course correction and destiny are related in this case. GMTA.

    p.s. Avoid temptation. :)[/quote]
    ///////////////////////////
    yes? hammer.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    I just knew you were gonna do that. LOL

  484. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314389"][quote comment="314383"]4. Does anyone have any theories on how and why Jack’s father has become so pivotal?[/quote]

    FWIW, I don’t think Christian Shepherd has BECOME pivotal, I believe he has been intrinsic to the baseline of this show since hour one.

    It was NOT a mistake that he was a prominent part of the pilot, IMO.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Totally agree PJ, he has popped into the story several times. It just seems like we are seeing him more because now that the show has and end date, they can give us more about him.

  485. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314066"]Something i just read quoted from Executive Producers Damon Lindelof & Carlton Cuse as they rehash This Place Is Death

    * The ‘temple’ seen in ‘This Place is Death’ is “not necessarily THE temple” and isn’t where the smoke monster lives but rather his ‘Camp David’.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    After listening to the podcast a couple of times. I think that the wall surrounds the actual Temple. They were letting us know that technially what we saw was just a protection wall and that once you are inside the wall you have some hiking to do to get to the actual Temple.

  486. DocH says:

    [quote] The ‘temple’ seen in ‘This Place is Death’ is “not necessarily THE temple” and isn’t where the smoke monster lives but rather his ‘Camp David’.[/quote]

    This implies that smokie has a ‘weekend house’ or a ‘summer retreat’ AWAY from the main temple. You know, a place to entertain foreign (French) dignitaries.

  487. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314413"][quote] The ‘temple’ seen in ‘This Place is Death’ is “not necessarily THE temple” and isn’t where the smoke monster lives but rather his ‘Camp David’.[/quote]

    This implies that smokie has a ‘weekend house’ or a ‘summer retreat’ AWAY from the main temple. You know, a place to entertain foreign (French) dignitaries.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Funny Doc.

    I just took it as the hole was just another Cerebus Vent like the ones we have seen on the blast door map and jig saw puzzle game.

  488. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314319"][quote comment="314316"][*************************************
    ut, all that notwithstanding, the Hero’s journey is one of trials, self discovery, despair, the ultimate test, sacrifice, and triumph. You don’t necessarily get to be alive at the end of it, but you win through to something good and arOooh yes Hammer, even better[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Well, I guess course correction and destiny are related in this case. GMTA.

    p.s. Avoid temptation. :)[/quote]
    Here’s my problem with blanket course correction–who is in charge of knowing what the RIGHT course is? God, Jacob, Hawking? If time is a string, say, to use Daniel’s words, and you can move back and forth on it– or rather, sometimes some people can– but we live our lives in one direction, birth to death, what’s your only option? It’s to figure out what Destiny (or whoever/whatever the mighty creator of the Time String is) has in mind for you, and do that.

    Unless you’re psychic, and, granted, some on this show are, you’re the leaf in the wind of Fate, and good luck to you! Hope you’re good at reading the crumbs/signs Fate tosses in front of you, woe to you if not.

    OK, I can buy that as a premise, but you’re only shot of Free Will is, fulfill your destiny or fight your destiny. And, BTW, sorry, if you fight your destiny, you’re toast anyway, because Fate’s going to drag you back in the direction it wants you to go.

    Or, I suppose, disaster happens when you fight destiny and your only option is to, OK, course correct.

    But, like the Ancient Greeks, tragedy be yours, and happiness is an accident which you’d better enjoy for its fleeting duration, because like the Delphic Oracle says, you’re going to kill your father and marry your mother and nothing you do to try to stop it is going to change that. Ha ha, human hubris, don’t mess with the gods!

    That works and all, but it’s not my favorite thing.

    Cheers–Liz

  489. LizS says:

    I was thinking some more about Heroes–and wh[quote comment="314411"][quote comment="314389"][quote comment="314383"]4. Does anyone have any theories on how and why Jack’s father has become so pivotal?[/quote]

    FWIW, I don’t think Christian Shepherd has BECOME pivotal, I believe he has been intrinsic to the baseline of this show since hour one.

    It was NOT a mistake that he was a prominent part of the pilot, IMO.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Totally agree PJ, he has popped into the story several times. It just seems like we are seeing him more because now that the show has and end date, they can give us more about him.[/quote]
    ****************
    I wondered if CS was maybe once a potential hero who resisted the call of destiny, and tried to fight what the Island (or whatever) wanted from him, and became the drunk because of it. And now it’s Jack’s turn to face that moment–so far, not so good, so maybe it will rest with Aaron?
    –Liz

  490. DocH says:

    [quote]Funny Doc. I just took it as the hole was just another Cerebus Vent like the ones we have seen on the blast door map and jig saw puzzle game.[/quote]

    I totally agree. The Frenchies got fried at a Cerberus vent… one we had not seen before. My question is – is there more than one Smokey? One per vent?

    Smokey seems to have a varying mood at different times – good Smokey and bad Smokey suggests only two Smokeys to cover all of the Cerberus Vents. Maybe good and bad Smokey don’t get along… that’s why they are always racing around… not to get the Losties – but simply to beat the other Smokey to the punch. Maybe good Smokey kills bad islanders, and bad Smokey kills good islanders. That’s why Team Keamy lived following their butt-whoopin’ – bad Smokey let’em off with a warning.

    (love to see Smokey vs. Smokey in the UFC octagon)

  491. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314411"][quote comment="314389"][quote comment="314383"]4. Does anyone have any theories on how and why Jack’s father has become so pivotal?[/quote]

    FWIW, I don’t think Christian Shepherd has BECOME pivotal, I believe he has been intrinsic to the baseline of this show since hour one.

    It was NOT a mistake that he was a prominent part of the pilot, IMO.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Totally agree PJ, he has popped into the story several times. It just seems like we are seeing him more because now that the show has and end date, they can give us more about him.[/quote]
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Also along those lines, who did the show open up on? Not John Locke, Jack. So while John may do some important things, good or bad, I think it’s going to ultimately come down to Jack and what he chooses when the pivotal time unfolds.

    I’m still thinking, Jacob’s chair in the woods, and ‘Help me’
    –Liz

  492. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314420"][quote]Funny Doc. I just took it as the hole was just another Cerebus Vent like the ones we have seen on the blast door map and jig saw puzzle game.[/quote]

    I totally agree. The Frenchies got fried at a Cerberus vent… one we had not seen before. My question is – is there more than one Smokey? One per vent?

    Smokey seems to have a varying mood at different times – good Smokey and bad Smokey suggests only two Smokeys to cover all of the Cerberus Vents. Maybe good and bad Smokey don’t get along… that’s why they are always racing around… not to get the Losties – but simply to beat the other Smokey to the punch. Maybe good Smokey kills bad islanders, and bad Smokey kills good islanders. That’s why Team Keamy lived following their butt-whoopin’ – bad Smokey let’em off with a warning.

    (love to see Smokey vs. Smokey in the UFC octagon)[/quote]
    LOL–Cerberus was a three headed dog guarding the gates of Hell, did that get said yet? So maybe there’s three Smokies on a very long dog chain. sorry if repeat.

  493. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="314387"][quote comment="314383"]Ok I have a couple of questions but I don’t know if they had been asked yet. I just want to know what other people are thinking.

    1. Rousseau had previously said that the others took her people. This past episode we see that she murdered them because they had been taken by the monster. Was that just a fluke or is that something that should be paid more attention??
    [/quote]

    1. She didn’t say they took them. She said she killed them. The Others made them sick but in this last episode she says the monster did. So THAT may be a fluke:)

    [/quote]
    ___________________________
    And to follow up on Tasha’s reply, Rousseau also had told the Losties that the Others took her baby, Alex. So maybe that’s the part you’re remembering, Jamal.

  494. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="314412"][quote comment="314066"]Something i just read quoted from Executive Producers Damon Lindelof & Carlton Cuse as they rehash This Place Is Death

    * The ‘temple’ seen in ‘This Place is Death’ is “not necessarily THE temple” and isn’t where the smoke monster lives but rather his ‘Camp David’.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    After listening to the podcast a couple of times. I think that the wall surrounds the actual Temple. They were letting us know that technially what we saw was just a protection wall and that once you are inside the wall you have some hiking to do to get to the actual Temple.[/quote]
    _______________________
    I haven’t listened to the podcast yet, but it’s somewhat of a relief to me to hear that we haven’t seen the temple itself yet. Like I mentioned in comment 224, I’d expect the temple to be a significant structure, and I’d expect it would get a more dramatic reveal. (kinda like the dramatic reveal of the Others’ barracks that we got in the Season 3 premiere)

  495. Eric says:

    PJ Sander Comment 320

    Why would Ben let Walt leave?

    So I think uses people for greatest Utility–given their unique abilities–on and off the island.

    Ben had a “man on the boat” Michael. Was that the reason Ben let Walt and Michael leave? To have him the Freighter? We assumed so, but maybe didn’t discuss it enough (or we had fewer pieces to weave together than we do now).

    Ben let Walt go because he either a)needed a “man” off the island, b)wanted to protect Walt from the crazy Time issues the rest of the Losties are experiencing, or c)like a, Walt needed a man in real time, but ONLY Walt was qualified.

    Walt then is one of the good guys too. And knows it. It will be Walt in the end that is central to the Locke-Bentham transformation.

  496. DocH says:

    LizS; [quote] LOL–Cerberus was a three headed dog guarding the gates of Hell, did that get said yet? So maybe there’s three Smokies on a very long dog chain. sorry if repeat. [/quote]

    The Cerberus thing was big back in Season 2-ish. Vicious three-headed dog like thing that guards the Gates to Hades (I hear it’s like an exclusive celeb hang-out now. Tough to get in with Saddam as doorman) But Cerberus is always a conversation starter after a Smokey episode… or after a “good vs. evil” debate… or after a “they are all dead” debate.

    – – – –
    TK; [quote]…I’d expect the temple to be a significant structure, and I’d expect it would get a more dramatic reveal. (kinda like the dramatic reveal of the Others’ barracks that we got in the Season 3 premiere)[/quote]

    Me too. But I don’t know that it has to be above ground either. The various blueprints we have seen over 5 seasons suggest there is a significant underground complex. The Looking Glass episodes pointed to the novella about the Moon Pool… big-timey underground theme.

  497. Eric says:

    LizS Comment 364:

    On not wanting your favorite characters Ben and Locke to not be viewed ultimately as “good” for the acts they commit.

    I’m personally with you, that it’s hard to label someone Good, when they do the stuff these guys have.

    I’m thinking it’s possible that the show’s construct is leading us to see them this way. It almost sounded like a gutteral growl when Christian was scolding Locke.

    In my books, anyone who gives you an emotive like that is showing how much you’ve hurt or put at risk their core. They can’t help but release that kind aggression/disdain.

  498. Eric says:

    Rita Comment 413

    On Locke’s apparent leadership grooming by Ben.

    Great post! I think you’re right, there is a free will/determinism thing at play. Now I’m thinking both sides want him.

    One side–Jacob and the bad guys, want John Locke

    The other side will get Jeremy Bentham. Ben will get Bentham. When Ben said “he’s not who we thought he was” he wasn’t lying. Ben is waiting for his Leader–Jeremy Bentham, the Utilitarian, one who accepts and understands all of Ben’s atrocious actions were morally justified. Together they will try to save X.

    The bad guys want John Locke, who understands this island is theirs to own, control, and dominate.

  499. Eric says:

    K.C. Comment 423

    On “actually changing the future” as the real goal for Locke/Ben/Desmond/Walt?

    I think you might be right. To figure out how to change the future AND do so without the course correction.

    Why Farraday tries.
    Why Ben is apparently amoral (believes things are either necessary or irrelavent if time can be changed (and if he fails he’s dead anyway).
    Why Walt and/or Locke is needed. There is only 1 or a few who have special ability needed by Ben (and others who understand).
    Why Farraday made Desmond his constant, and why Ben is surprised now by Desmond’s role in all of this.

  500. intolost says:

    Great posts!

    Is Christian Shepherd a manisfestation of the smoke monster, (help me?)

    Cool, my nosebleed question was answered by previous posts. Now I understand why Locke didn’t get a nosebleed. Wait! Okay, why hasn’t Jin been getting nosebleeds yet?

    Okay, so do the 06rs really need to come back or not??? Claire and Charlotte both insisted they don’t come back! Sayid told Hurley to do the opposite of what Ben says. Charlie told Hurley that those on the island need him. Ben obviously knows how to come and go as he pleases, no sweat. I think I’ve concluded that Ben is just using them (06rs) for whatever the ultimate game is between him and Widmore. I like the previous posts about the “manifestations” and “whisperers,” too.

    Some cool similarities between LOST and “A Wrinkle in Time,” by Madeleine L’Engle. Read about “A Wrinkle in Time” on wikipedia if you are interested. Cool to read about Stephen Hawking’s theories, too, and ponder relations to LOST.

    I love it that Penny and Des named their kid Charlie!

  501. intolost says:

    P.S. Are the losties just going back and forth between 1988 and 2004? Kind of seems like it.

  502. intolost says:

    OOPS!!! Nope. Nevermind.

  503. Missy says:

    Great thoughts all –

    A few of my own, for now:

    -Liz’s comment from above got me thinking of the parallels between Jack and Christian. Jack on island – confident leader, at home drunk and out of control. The same could be said for his dad, could it not? The Christain Shepherd on island is in a leadership position, off island drunk.

    – Unrelated thought – I really feel like the noise associated with smokey is more pronouced each time we see it. It’s almost like it’s mechanical, sounding like a roller coaster or something. I don’t recall the sound of smokey as much in earlier episodes. I could be wrong – but is this some indication of how it works? Thoughts?

  504. RGS says:

    [quote comment="314455"]
    – Unrelated thought – I really feel like the noise associated with smokey is more pronouced each time we see it. It’s almost like it’s mechanical, sounding like a roller coaster or something. I don’t recall the sound of smokey as much in earlier episodes. I could be wrong – but is this some indication of how it works? Thoughts?[/quote]

    Smokey’s been having that chain sound for its latter appearances. I think the thing we were suppose to learn about it (D&C state they will reveal something new about it each time it appears) was one of its exit points, guarding the temple wall.

  505. ChrisLost says:

    I’m wondering if there any meaning to people’s names or if the creators are just having fun. Locke, Hume (Desmond), Rousseau and even Bentham (Locke’s psudeonum when in LA) are all philophers of some fame. I even seem to remember someone named Kant at some point. Anyone else notice this pattern? Also, Christian Sheppard? Could there be a more obvious allogory?

  506. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314435"] Ben is waiting for his Leader–Jeremy Bentham, the Utilitarian, one who accepts and understands all of Ben’s atrocious actions were morally justified. Together they will try to save X.

    The bad guys want John Locke, who understands this island is theirs to own, control, and dominate.[/quote]
    Eric, I beg to differ on the Ben! But at least we can agree his actions have been atrocious ; )

    You can’t convince me that poisoning an entire group of people, men, women & children, was justified. For a child to commit mass murder to make himself an acceptable leader to a people whose motivations, methods, and actions before and since have been hostile, murderous, mysterious, and seemingly self-serving–you tell me what the moral good is?

    Protect the Island? Why, and for who, and from what?

    Because the Island wanted him to? Yeah, not good enough. M U R D E R. A devastating crime, a soul-darkening act, a horrendous evil.

    Why, why, why did they all have to die? Why did Alpert ask boy Ben to do it? That is just messed up. A tribal, primitive response to the Not-Us of pre-Civilized times.

    Ben is a complex, interesting, strange and dangerous character, but if he’s doing something good, it’s not because he’s the moral compass of the universe. Maybe everyone’s on the same side at the moment because there’s a catastrophe to be averted. But when it’s over, and you become THEM again, look out!

    Best, Liz

    PS-But I won’t say Ben can’t surprise us. It’s part of who he is.

  507. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314486"]I’m wondering if there any meaning to people’s names or if the creators are just having fun. Locke, Hume (Desmond), Rousseau and even Bentham (Locke’s psudeonum when in LA) are all philophers of some fame. I even seem to remember someone named Kant at some point. Anyone else notice this pattern? Also, Christian Sheppard? Could there be a more obvious allogory?[/quote]
    I found this site,
    http://www.mdx.ac.uk/WWW/STUDY/linkssh.htm
    which is a Middlesex Univ. study link site for a lot of the names you’re talking about, with it looks like a lot of other cool science & social history stuff.

    Are they just clever names for characters, or do they supply some deeper meanings for the story?

    Hmm. Best, Liz
    PS, not sure if I did the link-thing right, sorry if I messed it up

  508. Lost TV Show says:

    It seems like this episode will be this season’s emotional and mind blowing one, like “The Constant” was for Season 4.

  509. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314541"]It seems like this episode will be this season’s emotional and mind blowing one, like “The Constant” was for Season 4.[/quote]

    If you are talking about the upcoming episode, 316, then you may be right. Given that D&C have alluded to the fact that it is a “stand alone” episode, and thus will (in my opinion) probably be the one they use for Emmy consideration, I expect it should be fairly strong.

    : ) P

  510. ChrisLost says:

    Thanks for the link Liz. I was actually a philosphy major (yes I admit it) and am finding it interesting that the show keeps introducing characters who are named after philosophers. I think we’ll see even more in the future. It made me think about the giant 4-toed foot from a few seasons ago. Could that be some sort of remnant of a giant Socrates/Plato/Aristotle? I don’t understand the 4 toes but the foot looked very “ancient Greek” to me. Are Richard and his crew looking to create some sort of Plato’s Utopia and these darned intruders (Dharma, the Oceanic crew) keep getting in the way? I wonder.

  511. gmta leah says:

    just watched lost !late again! well, no mysteries this week. …But what i will say is….Eloise hawkins is a baddy !I think she s going to become good though. as soon as desmund tells her that her son is on the island . i dont think she knows yet. And ben certainly didnt know that danial was her son.He knows its going to change things .Thats my two penneth.

  512. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314436"]K.C. Comment 423

    On “actually changing the future” as the real goal for Locke/Ben/Desmond/Walt?

    I think you might be right. To figure out how to change the future AND do so without the course correction.

    Why Farraday tries.
    Why Ben is apparently amoral (believes things are either necessary or irrelavent if time can be changed (and if he fails he’s dead anyway).
    Why Walt and/or Locke is needed. There is only 1 or a few who have special ability needed by Ben (and others who understand).
    Why Farraday made Desmond his constant, and why Ben is surprised now by Desmond’s role in all of this.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++++=
    Maybe being able to change the past/future without course correction is how you change a factor in the equation (numbers)?

  513. fitty says:

    I think this season has progressed very slowly, even though it slightly resembles older seasons. I think what made the first three seasons so good was because they were less action oriented, and I am hoping they go back to that.

    Also, I do not think many questions will be answered, so do not get your hopes up.

  514. Tasha says:

    I watched something on the science channel tonight about the 6 degrees of separation. The equation looked similar to the one Hawkins was writing on her chalkboard. I recorded it and I am gonna look more into it tomorrow but it said if you take a hub out of the equation/network it could have devastating effects. I feel the wheels turning in my head. How come everything I see and every conversation I have can somehow be related to lost?

  515. Skweez says:

    Why did Dan tell Dez that “the rules don’t apply to you”. Here’s my theory: the O6 was “supposed” to crash on the island, but Dez wasn’t. Therefore, Dez can bend or break the “island” rules such as answering the hatch door for Dan and getting the “memory” in the future. Any thoughts?

  516. Jaime says:

    [quote comment="314433"]LizS; [quote] j
    TK; [quote]…I’d expect the temple to be a significant structure, and I’d expect it would get a more dramatic reveal. (kinda like the dramatic reveal of the Others’ barracks that we got in the Season 3 premiere)[/quote]

    Me too. But I don’t know that it has to be above ground either. The various blueprints we have seen over 5 seasons suggest there is a significant underground complex. The Looking Glass episodes pointed to the novella about the Moon Pool… big-timey underground theme.[/quote]

    ###################################################
    That’s what i was thinking from post 216……”Bens “secret room” in the barracks house was the entrance to where he released Smokey. Could someone find this “control room” and deactivate it? Could that barracks house have been built on top of this MUCH older structure on purpose? Is it possible that below the entire island is The Temple or the location where the ancient civilization once lived?”

  517. londonboy says:

    I have no problems with the logistics of Charlotte dying in the past but being alive in 2004. We know that it’s possible to exist in a time before any of the losties were born (the 50s scenes) or be in two places in one timeline (when Locke saw the hatch light/Sawyer saw Kate/Claire), so it seems to make sense that you can die in the past and still exist in the present.

    Charlotte is born on the island, leaves with her mother (the scary man/Daniel tells her not to come back, but we don’t know that he’s the one to make them leave, do we?), changes her identity and history, which is possibly what wrong foots Ben’s background on her, but is compelled to go back to the island, which is what kills her, remembering Daniel’s warning too late.

    It could be course correction, as some have suggested, or just the cruel irony of fate, which I’m leaning towards.

    As for Danielle, it seems to me that Jin always did go back and ‘save’ her, rather than the ‘photoshop’ idea. There was no apparent other obstacle to her following her team, so Jin would appear to have always been fated to be part of that storyline. She should have remembered him in earlier seasons and either a) didn’t actually have any scenes with him (I can’t remember) b) was hazy due to the intensity of killing her team and time past (which I think the writers would address) c) or something else happens we haven’t seen yet which affects her memory – with the Alex/Ben issue still not properly filled in, we may see more of her backstory.

    The effect the Smoke Monster had on the Frenchmen may mean we see more of her backstory, but it could also play out in the ‘current’ timeline with something similar happening to other characters. They have to explain it somehow.

    The Locke/compass/Alpert stuff also follows the ‘it always happened this way’ logic. So I’m also going with Daniel’s scary man moment being something that is yet to happen in his timeline rather than something he’s already done and forgotten. I think this ties in with the experiments he was doing with Charlotte and the cards (trying to ‘remember’ something that hasn’t yet happened) and his crying at the beginning of season four. I think this was a memory she had been taught to suppress/not believe in and the sudden shifts back to her childlike state triggered the memory of him. It was a realisation of something that had already happened to her, but not yet to him.

    Unlike Hammer, I thought it was the island moving in time, not just the losties. The island is shifting through its timeline with everyone on or near the island when Ben pushed the wheel along for the ride. However, didn’t Alpert and the others disappear in the first flash, when Locke was declaring himself their new leader? Shouldn’t they have moved too? If it’s just the Losties, shoudldn’t Juliet, Miles, Charlotte and Daniel also have disappeared within their own timeline?

    I thought it might have something to do with the temple, with someone else here referencing Ben’s ‘you’ll be safe at the temple’ line as if it was a safety zone from the time shifts or at least their effects (sorry can’t remember which post said this). That made sense, except the others weren’t at the temple when John became their leader, were they? And surely Alpert wouldn’t have been safe if he had to come find John after he’d been shot by Ethan to give him the compass as that wasn’t at the temple either. Admittedly we don’t know what time it was when Alpert turned up, but we do know Alpert is ‘special’ in some way.

    As for Des, I can’t remember enough of The Constant, to remember if this was a photoshopping moment, with Daniel remembering meeting Des at Oxford (and therefore his notes) after Des’ consciousness had gone back in time and changed events. Im sure it was, and was how Daniel knew to bang on the hatch, but can’t remember how Daniel played it in that episode.

    I’m trying to figure out how those events shaped Daniel’s history up to now – did he do Dharma research and was employed by Widmore because of Desmond’s arrival in the past?

    Widmore picked Miles and Charlotte who had both (we think) grown up on the island, while Frank was supposed to pilot 815. Perhaps Widmore was still present when Daniel is the crazy man speaking to Charlotte in the past and so there is a reason for putting him on the chopper too, but it does seem as if Widmore picked them for specific reasons.

    Sorry for all the random thoughts. Lost time travel makes my brain hurty.

  518. LizS says:

    I also wondered about Dan’s journal–is it something that he’s keeping himself from beginning to end, or is it something he’s ‘inherited’ -maybe from the future?-that he’s figuring out, while also adding to?

  519. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314639"]

    Unlike Hammer, I thought it was the island moving in time, not just the losties. The island is shifting through its timeline with everyone on or near the island when Ben pushed the wheel along for the ride. However, didn’t Alpert and the others disappear in the first flash, when Locke was declaring himself their new leader? Shouldn’t they have moved too? If it’s just the Losties, shoudldn’t Juliet, Miles, Charlotte and Daniel also have disappeared within their own timeline?

    [/quote]

    I think it has become obvious that there has been a separation of groups on the island. The true ‘Others’ have not been effected by the skipping, which ‘kind of’ proves that the island is NOT what is skipping through time. I say kind of because either our skippers are moving in time and the island isn’t or the Others are stuck in time while the island skips without them. I can’t be both because the Alpert knew that Locke was going skipping, but he wasn’t.

  520. RGS says:

    [quote comment="314639"]
    As for Danielle, it seems to me that Jin always did go back and ‘save’ her, rather than the ‘photoshop’ idea…so Jin would appear to have always been fated to be part of that…
    The Locke/compass/Alpert stuff also follows the ‘it always happened this way’ logic.

    So I’m also going with Daniel’s scary man moment being something that is yet to happen in his timeline rather than something he’s already done and forgotten. [/quote]

    These two paragraphs seem inconsistent to me. If you believe that these things have always happened this way, then Daniel must have already done this, no?

    [quote comment="314639"]
    …didn’t Alpert and the others disappear… Shouldn’t they have moved too? If it’s just the Losties, shoudldn’t Juliet, Miles, Charlotte and Daniel also have disappeared within their own timeline?

    …That made sense, except the others weren’t at the temple when John became their leader, were they? And surely Alpert wouldn’t have been safe if he had to come find John after he’d been shot by Ethan to give him the compass as that wasn’t at the temple either.
    [/quote]

    I agree with this, but I don’t think we’ll get an explanation for the random time travel guests. Chalk it up to island mythos. As far as Alpert being safe in the tending to Locke after being shot incident, that was an event that happened in the past, so once it was established that Alpert didn’t initially move, I think they are being consistent with not having him move in other scenes.

  521. RGS says:

    [quote comment="314643"]
    I think it has become obvious that there has been a separation of groups on the island. The true ‘Others’ have not been effected by the skipping, which ‘kind of’ proves that the island is NOT what is skipping through time. I say kind of because either our skippers are moving in time and the island isn’t or the Others are stuck in time while the island skips without them. I can’t be both because the Alpert knew that Locke was going skipping, but he wasn’t.[/quote]

    I’m not following why you say it can’t be both. Why can’t Alpert ‘know’ the island and John would skip through time? He says to John that he has to die to save the island. If the island isn’t skipping and is just stationary, what would he mean by “saving the island?”

    By the same token he knows that Locke is skipping time randomly.

  522. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314639"]The Locke/compass/Alpert stuff also follows the ‘it always happened this way’ logic. So I’m also going with Daniel’s scary man moment being something that is yet to happen in his timeline rather than something he’s already done and forgotten. [/quote]
    Isn’t this like having your cake and eating it too?

    If you believe in the ‘it always happened this way’ logic, than you can’t say “I’m also going with Daniel’s scary man moment being something that is yet to happen in his timeline rather than something he’s already done and forgotten.” Which do you believe?

  523. Eric says:

    Hammer Comment 514

    On changing the future without course correction as a key component of the Equation.

    Yes! I agree with you 100%

  524. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314645"][quote comment="314643"]
    I think it has become obvious that there has been a separation of groups on the island. The true ‘Others’ have not been effected by the skipping, which ‘kind of’ proves that the island is NOT what is skipping through time. I say kind of because either our skippers are moving in time and the island isn’t or the Others are stuck in time while the island skips without them. I can’t be both because the Alpert knew that Locke was going skipping, but he wasn’t.[/quote]

    I’m not following why you say it can’t be both. Why can’t Alpert ‘know’ the island and John would skip through time? He says to John that he has to die to save the island. If the island isn’t skipping and is just stationary, what would he mean by “saving the island?”

    By the same token he knows that Locke is skipping time randomly.[/quote]
    +++++++
    Guess I didn’t say it right. I’m saying that the island is not skipping with the skippers because of what Richard said.

  525. londonboy says:

    Hi RGS, I don’t think i explained myself properly. Yes, Daniel has already been the ‘scary man’ in Charlotte’s timeline, has already done it in the past, but is yet to do it in his timeline, ie. it is not in the past for him, it is a future thing he does in the past. Same as with Jin – when he arrived on the island first time, he had already ‘saved’ Rousseau in the past, but not yet in his past. Neither have forgotten what they have done, as they haven’t done it yet – Charlotte was able to remember and Danielle might have too, as it was past for them. Does that make more sense? In my head I’m not contradicting myself, but…

    As for Hammer – what I meant was, I disagreed with your notion that the Island is what is moving, but the issue with the others, true or otherwise (if it’s something to do with being from the island, then surely Charlotte and maybe Miles fit this too), made me wonder if you were right. I’m still not certain yet.

  526. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314652"]
    As for Hammer – what I meant was, I disagreed with your notion that the Island is what is moving, but the issue with the others, true or otherwise (if it’s something to do with being from the island, then surely Charlotte and maybe Miles fit this too), made me wonder if you were right. I’m still not certain yet.[/quote]
    I guess I don’t see your point. I DON’T THINK the island is skipping. But we know for sure that the island MOVED, it’s been confirmed by D&C that both events happened. The Losties DID skip through time AND the island changed locations.

  527. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314652"]Hi RGS, I don’t think i explained myself properly. Yes, Daniel has already been the ‘scary man’ in Charlotte’s timeline, has already done it in the past, but is yet to do it in his timeline, ie. it is not in the past for him, it is a future thing he does in the past. Same as with Jin – when he arrived on the island first time, he had already ‘saved’ Rousseau in the past, but not yet in his past. Neither have forgotten what they have done, as they haven’t done it yet – Charlotte was able to remember and Danielle might have too, as it was past for them. Does that make more sense? In my head I’m not contradicting myself, but…

    [/quote]

    You are saying the it always happened for Char but DIDN’T always happen for Dan? You LOST me. :)

  528. Toeknee says:

    To RGS (#522) and Hammer (#524)

    I don’t think londonboy is contradicting himself in these paragraphs. And I agree with his interpretation of what is happening. But to re-word what he’s saying about Daniel and Charlotte…..

    Let’s assume the date of Charlotte’s death is January 2005. The Daniel that talks to Charlotte as a young girl is the Daniel from sometime after Jan 2005, say 2009 Daniel. So, during Charlotte’s death scene, Charlotte remembers her encounter with 2009 Daniel because 2005 Charlotte already experienced that. However, 2005 Daniel has not experienced it, so it’s not possible for him to remember it in 2005.

  529. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314655"]To RGS (#522) and Hammer (#524)

    I don’t think londonboy is contradicting himself in these paragraphs. And I agree with his interpretation of what is happening. But to re-word what he’s saying about Daniel and Charlotte…..

    Let’s assume the date of Charlotte’s death is January 2005. The Daniel that talks to Charlotte as a young girl is the Daniel from sometime after Jan 2005, say 2009 Daniel. So, during Charlotte’s death scene, Charlotte remembers her encounter with 2009 Daniel because 2005 Charlotte already experienced that. However, 2005 Daniel has not experienced it, so it’s not possible for him to remember it in 2005.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    Still not good for me. They are skipping in time together. It would make sense if he was visiting her in a different time. But since they are together this timeline it would have as ‘always’ happened for him too IF you believe that IT has ALWAYS HAPPENED for her.

    I am sticking with it already happened, he just doesn’t remember it.

  530. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="314658"]
    Still not good for me. They are skipping in time together. It would make sense if he was visiting her in a different time. But since they are together this timeline it would have as ‘always’ happened for him too IF you believe that IT has ALWAYS HAPPENED for her.

    I am sticking with it already happened, he just doesn’t remember it.[/quote]
    I guess I’m not following why you think he should remember it. That’s like saying that today you, Hammer, should be able to remember your February 2011 trip to Disneyworld. You, the 2009 Hammer, have not gone on that trip yet, so of course you can’t remember it.

    Similarly the 2005 Daniel has not gone on the trip to the 1980’s yet.

    Do you think that the John Locke of September 2004 should have remembered the trip that the John Locke of January 2005 took to 1954?

  531. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314659"][quote comment="314658"]
    Still not good for me. They are skipping in time together. It would make sense if he was visiting her in a different time. But since they are together this timeline it would have as ‘always’ happened for him too IF you believe that IT has ALWAYS HAPPENED for her.

    I am sticking with it already happened, he just doesn’t remember it.[/quote]
    I guess I’m not following why you think he should remember it. That’s like saying that today you, Hammer, should be able to remember your February 2011 trip to Disneyworld. You, the 2009 Hammer, have not gone on that trip yet, so of course you can’t remember it.

    Similarly the 2005 Daniel has not gone on the trip to the 1980’s yet.

    Do you think that the John Locke of September 2004 should have remembered the trip that the John Locke of January 2005 took to 1954?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Toeknee, I am saying that it already happened!!!! That’s why he should remember it!!! At this point, I don’t believe that he is going to do it in the future. I’m saying that sometime before NOW, he traveled to the past and saw her. He just doesn’t remember doing it because he has memory issues that have been shown to us.

  532. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="314658"]
    Still not good for me. They are skipping in time together. It would make sense if he was visiting her in a different time. But since they are together this timeline it would have as ‘always’ happened for him too IF you believe that IT has ALWAYS HAPPENED for her.

    I am sticking with it already happened, he just doesn’t remember it.[/quote]
    Also, regarding the skipping in time together, you are correct – what we have seen this season is Charlotte and Daniel time travelling together. In these scenes, they are always together, whether it’s 2005, or 1954, or 2008, or whatever year they end up in. However, when Daniel skips back to the 1980’s and meets with a young Charlotte, it’s a future version of Daniel that’s time travelling. It’s a version of Daniel that is living at a time where Charlotte has already died. Presumably, it’s the same version of Daniel that bumps into Dr. Chang down in the Orchid in the scene at the beginning of this season.

  533. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="314660"]
    Toeknee, I am saying that it already happened!!!! That’s why he should remember it!!! At this point, I don’t believe that he is going to do it in the future. I’m saying that sometime before NOW, he traveled to the past and saw her. He just doesn’t remember doing it because he has memory issues that have been shown to us.[/quote]
    OK I got it now. I completely disagree but I understand what you’re saying.

  534. Toeknee says:

    And I still say you’re off base in thinking (comment #524) that londonboy is “having his cake and eating it too”. His logic is consistent.

  535. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314663"][quote comment="314660"]
    Toeknee, I am saying that it already happened!!!! That’s why he should remember it!!! At this point, I don’t believe that he is going to do it in the future. I’m saying that sometime before NOW, he traveled to the past and saw her. He just doesn’t remember doing it because he has memory issues that have been shown to us.[/quote]
    OK I got it now. I completely disagree but I understand what you’re saying.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    Whew!! I totally understood your side.
    I just have not yet assumed that Dan bumping into Chang hasn’t happened yet. I think that it already happened and is why Dan knows so much about DHARMA (he said is book is everything he knows about DHARMA) and back then (in my imagination) is when he told little Char.

    I undertand that many folks are taking what Char said as a ‘reveal’ that Dan is now going to try to save her, but I have taken the events of Dan trying to get Des to contact his mom as his attempt to change the past/future. He thought that the rules don’t apply to Des, but he was wrong, and the course correction happened.

  536. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314658"][quote comment="314655"]To RGS (#522) and Hammer (#524)

    I don’t think londonboy is contradicting himself in these paragraphs. And I agree with his interpretation of what is happening. But to re-word what he’s saying about Daniel and Charlotte…..
    ….
    +++++++++++
    Still not good for me. They are skipping in time together. It would make sense if he was visiting her in a different time. But since they are together this timeline it would have as ‘always’ happened for him too IF you believe that IT has ALWAYS HAPPENED for her.

    I am sticking with it already happened, he just doesn’t remember it.[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I’m with Londonboy & Toeknee on this–The Skippers are loose from the main timeline, and are skipping along it–ie, the Island moved, and everyone on it, but for Some Reason, they are out of sync with Main Time. Though the Space parts are in sync.

    It’s like the rope got frayed and they are the frayed threads. But it’s only for the few days or whatever since the skippage happened. The rest of their lives are still, you know, regular. The past is the past, the present is freaky, and the future uncertain.

    Even so, time still progresses from birth to death, beg to end. So their personal timeline is squiggling and bumping along the mainline, but is still the B to D thread of their lives.

    So Charlotte, before she was ‘frayed’ met the crazy dude in her personal past. At her death, she realizes that it must have been Dan. But Dan didn’t do it yet!

    But he will, when he gets bump/squiggle/purple skied back to that time.

    Like 12 Monkeys–anyone see that? Its a time travel in the round. When Bruce Willis character time travels back and meets the love of his life, he recognizes her and has even loved her for years, because he saw her when he was a boy–which she doesn’t understand.

    He remembers her from his personal past–but she didn’t meet him as a boy, yet. At the end, when it all goes to hell, she sees a boy witnessing events unfold, and she KNOWS THEN who that boy is–her love who is now…well, if you saw the movie, you know.

    But it has a terrible kind of logic.

    Until it’s proved otherwise, I’m going with the Dan didn’t do it YET on his timeline crowd.

    best–Liz

  537. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314664"]And I still say you’re off base in thinking (comment #524) that londonboy is “having his cake and eating it too”. His logic is consistent.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Hmmmm, here’s how I see it. She couldn’t have a memory of something that hasn’t happened yet. If she dies today, then he goes to the 70s tomorrow, she could have never known it happened because she died before it did happen. Just like Rouseau didn’t remember Jin, because she died before the time travel happened.

  538. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314667"][
    Like 12 Monkeys–anyone see that? Its a time travel in the round. When Bruce Willis character time travels back and meets the love of his life, he recognizes her and has even loved her for years, because he saw her when he was a boy–which she doesn’t understand.

    He remembers her from his personal past–but she didn’t meet him as a boy, yet. At the end, when it all goes to hell, she sees a boy witnessing events unfold, and she KNOWS THEN who that boy is–her love who is now…well, if you saw the movie, you know.

    But it has a terrible kind of logic.

    Until it’s proved otherwise, I’m going with the Dan didn’t do it YET on his timeline crowd.

    best–Liz[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Did Willis’ love interest travel in time with him, or did just he do the traveling?

  539. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="314668"][quote comment="314664"]And I still say you’re off base in thinking (comment #524) that londonboy is “having his cake and eating it too”. His logic is consistent.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Hmmmm, here’s how I see it. She couldn’t have a memory of something that hasn’t happened yet. If she dies today, then he goes to the 70s tomorrow, she could have never known it happened because she died before it did happen. Just like Rouseau didn’t remember Jin, because she died before the time travel happened.[/quote]
    ______________________________
    I know that’s a popular interpretation of what is happening. But I disagree with that. I don’t believe in the theory of “photoshpped” memories. And, if I may speak for londonboy, he doesn’t seem to agree with it either. You may disagree with his “anti-photoshopped” theory, but his logic is consistent.

    As far as Rousseau not remembering Jin, I’ve stated on this thread and on the one for last week’s episode that I find it completely plausible that in 2004 Rousseau did not remember Jin. londonboy also outlines some possible explanations for that in his comment #519.

  540. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314668"]Hmmmm, here’s how I see it. She couldn’t have a memory of something that hasn’t happened yet. If she dies today, then he goes to the 70s tomorrow, she could have never known it happened because she died before it did happen. Just like Rouseau didn’t remember Jin, because she died before the time travel happened.[/quote]

    It took some real deliberation, but I am definitely with Hammer on this. When we saw Daniel in the 70’s in the beginning of S5E1, I now believe we were seeing something that HAS happened in HIS time travels, but that he might not remember it.

    This also fits with the LOST storytelling technique. Despite flash forwards and flash backs and conscious traveling, and now even TIME traveling, we are being shown pieces of the story that HAVE happened, even if not necessarily in the order that they have happened. So Daniel time traveling to the 70’s HAS happened in HIS timeline. Not sure that part even made sense to me, but I can’t think of a better way to say it! LOL.

    : ) P

  541. Hammer says:

    Yeah, I know that those reasons are plausibe. It’s just bad story writing to say that Char as a small child remembers Dan, but Danielle as an adult doesn’t remember Jin. Dan’s telling Char a life saving memory, and Jin’s disappearing act memory are both VERY memorable.

    I’ll back off on the cake eating.

    AND admit that I am treading on this ice because I stronly believe that the losties, Dan included are going to end up ‘stuck’ in the DHARMA 70’s on the island and would be a perfect time for Dan to talk to Char as a child. I don’t like it because the writers will be cake eating if they say that Char remembers something that hasn’t happened yet, but EVERYONE else (Danielle, Richard, Ethan) so far in the story has not.

  542. Frank says:

    when’s mikhail comin back?

  543. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="314672"]Yeah, I know that those reasons are plausibe. It’s just bad story writing to say that Char as a small child remembers Dan, but Danielle as an adult doesn’t remember Jin. Dan’s telling Char a life saving memory, and Jin’s disappearing act memory are both VERY memorable.

    I’ll back off on the cake eating.

    AND admit that I am treading on this ice because I stronly believe that the losties, Dan included are going to end up ‘stuck’ in the DHARMA 70’s on the island and would be a perfect time for Dan to talk to Char as a child. I don’t like it because the writers will be cake eating if they say that Char remembers something that hasn’t happened yet, but EVERYONE else (Danielle, Richard, Ethan) so far in the story has not.[/quote]
    Well I may be guilty of drinking some Kool-Aid when I say I find it plausible that Danielle didn’t remember Jin, and when I say I have no problem with Ethan seeming to not remember Locke. I choose to think that Ethan did remember Locke in those season 1 episodes, but he couldn’t let on that he did.

  544. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314674"][/quote]
    Well I may be guilty of drinking some Kool-Aid when I say I find it plausible that Danielle didn’t remember Jin, and when I say I have no problem with Ethan seeming to not remember Locke. I choose to think that Ethan did remember Locke in those season 1 episodes, but he couldn’t let on that he did.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    I hear ya. ;)

  545. il post-ino says:

    LizS I really liked the 12 monkeys example. Maybe I am missing something (in my brain) but I don’t have an issue in believing that once you “go back” in time you can alter the future without changing it.

    I think the example we are given with Dan and Desmond sort of reveals D&C’s intentions or rules of time traveling. Desmond did not “remember” seeing Dan UNTIL Dan (in the present (flash-present?), the present being what we are given to watch on tv) visits him.

    This has to apply to everyone else. As in Danielle would not remember Jin until Jin went back. If she would be alive she would have remembered Jin just like Desmond “remembered” Dan.

    Sort of like a dream but not really a dream but a memory…

  546. londonboy says:

    Thanks for the support, Toeknee and LizS – I expect the confusion is deliberate on the part of the writers. Part of what makes it more confusing is that I thoroughly respect the opinions of Hammer and PJSander et al, and I sort of get what they are saying.

    But I think Toeknee puts it better than I can in 534.

    I do sort of agree with the photoshop theory, but only in the case of Des. I know some think Dan is wrong about Des, but I’m still not sure why. If anyone can explain this, that would be helpful.

    Also, what are Dan’s memory issues in previous episodes? If it’s the crying at the beginning of season 4, then like I said before, I thought that tied into his consciousness time travel experiments with the cards and the rat that instinctively knew the maze route before it occurred. What am I missing?

    And finally, I messed up when I said I disagreed with Hammer’s notion that it is the island skipping in time, I meant the complete opposite. I thought the island was skipping, not just the losties, which I think is what he was saying. Sorry, in between putting the baby to bed I got confused.

    Looking back at what Daniel said when he was describing the record skipping explanation, it’s less clear than I thought whether he was saying it’s them or the island that is moving in time.

  547. freckles20 says:

    wow…….can’t wait until Wednesday night!!

    do you think they will save charlie b4 he dies??

    i don’t think Desmond should go back, because he wasn’t part of the O6(on the plane).

  548. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314678"]
    Also, what are Dan’s memory issues in previous episodes? If it’s the crying at the beginning of season 4, then like I said before, I thought that tied into his consciousness time travel experiments with the cards and the rat that instinctively knew the maze route before it occurred. What am I missing?
    [/quote]
    Well (blushing) I appreciate the kind words.

    No, you aren’t missing anything on Dan’s memory issues. Just, I take the clues as what Dan said himself ‘confusion, not amnesia’. Which sounds like I am contradicting myself, but the folks are unable to REMEMBER because they are ‘confused’ as opposed to having amnesia, for me it’s symantics…they still can’t remember stuff. (Charlotte couldn’t remember her mother’s maiden name.)

    I’ve been wrong many times. I hope I’m not coming off as attacking your ideas. If you’ve been around awhile, you know that I’m a vigorous debator. Just ask Toeknee (my long time antoganist, but great debate buddy).

  549. londonboy says:

    It’s no problem Hammer, I don’t think I’ve ever seen you attack someone, it’s all good debate. There are plenty of ideas on these pages that I disagree with but they normally help flesh out my ideas or occasionally rethink them. All good debate.

    I just re-read a recap on The Constant and Daniel does laugh off Desmond’s suggestion that he ‘forgot’ in the future that this happened. I still think this could be the photoshop idea as Des is special, but it’s very confusing.

    And now I definitely want cake.

  550. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314686"]
    And now I definitely want cake.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    LOL…..let them eat cake!!!!!

  551. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314669"][quote comment="314667"][

    12 monkeys—-But it has a terrible kind of logic.

    Until it’s proved otherwise, I’m going with the Dan didn’t do it YET on his timeline crowd.

    best–Liz[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Did Willis’ love interest travel in time with him, or did just he do the traveling?[/quote]
    #########
    I ahem, see where you’re going, and no, he was the one doing the traveling, she was living in a single timeline–but that doesn’t mean I’m not right! ; ) Liz

  552. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="314676"]LizS I really liked the 12 monkeys example. Maybe I am missing something (in my brain) but I don’t have an issue in believing that once you “go back” in time you can alter the future without changing it.

    I think the example we are given with Dan and Desmond sort of reveals D&C’s intentions or rules of time traveling. Desmond did not “remember” seeing Dan UNTIL Dan (in the present (flash-present?), the present being what we are given to watch on tv) visits him.

    This has to apply to everyone else. As in Danielle would not remember Jin until Jin went back. If she would be alive she would have remembered Jin just like Desmond “remembered” Dan.

    Sort of like a dream but not really a dream but a memory…[/quote]
    +++++++++
    I started with agreeing with Londonboy on this but after reading all the discussion was about to agree completly with PJ on coming over to Hammers side. Now I am somewhere in the middle. 12-30-04 Daniel visits Des at the hatch and Des dosn’t remember until 2008. Daniel has said Des is special so if we take all the Des incidents out I think it could go either way. Eathan could have remembered Locke and not shown it, or memories kick in when the person from the future does it.

    Perhaps Charlotte remembered it because she was at the moment of her death. Perhaps everythng that ever happened to you is clear them, even if it is a visit from the future.

  553. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314670"][quote comment="314668"][quote comment="314664"] Just like Rouseau didn’t remember Jin, because she died before the time travel happened.[/quote]
    ______________________________
    I knowthat’s a popular interpretation of what is happening. But I disagree with that. I don’t believe in the theory of “photoshpped” memories. And, if I may speak for londonboy, he doesn’t seem to agree with it either. You may disagree with his “anti-photoshopped” theory, but his logic is consistent.

    As far as Rousseau not remembering Jin, I’ve stated on this thread and on the one for last week’s episode that I find it completely plausible that in 2004 Rousseau did not remember Jin. londonboy also outlines some possible explanations for that in his comment #519.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    Also, in the imperfect world that is the reality of TV series production, maybe the writers didn’t think of it back then, and we might have to grant this one some slack–we get the backstory on Danielle, and let her not recognizing Jin in the future (well, past) slide. Any takers???
    –Liz

  554. Miraks says:

    I can see both theories on the Daniel / Char interaction being valid (he has already done it but doesn’t remember vs. he has yet to do it). I guess it also depends on the scene with Dan in the begining of the Little Prince episode- was he there in the Dharma days (maybe during those two hours he supposently got lost on the way back from the hatch) and we just haven’t been shown all that happened (but will be sometime soon)? That would account for Char not remembering him when they first met, her remembering it now (maybe not instantly, but within a few hours, days at the best), and Dan knowing that he did that, but not wanting to give it away. Make sense?

  555. LizS says:

    [quote comment="314676"]LizS I really liked the 12 monkeys example. Maybe I am missing something (in my brain) but I don’t have an issue in believing that once you “go back” in time you can alter the future without changing it.

    I think the example we are given with Dan and Desmond sort of reveals D&C’s intentions or rules of time traveling. Desmond did not “remember” seeing Dan UNTIL Dan (in the present (flash-present?), the present being what we are given to watch on tv) visits him.

    This has to apply to everyone else. As in Danielle would not remember Jin until Jin went back. If she would be alive she would have remembered Jin just like Desmond “remembered” Dan.

    Sort of like a dream but not really a dream but a memory…[/quote]
    Hmm, except that we’ve been told that Desmond is special in some time-ish way, so things that apply to him may not apply to others.

  556. The Wrz says:

    quote]
    Hmm, except that we’ve been told that Desmond is special in some time-ish way, so things that apply to him may not apply to others.[/quote]

    ~~~~~~~~~~
    Agreed. Des rules don’t apply to anyone else, so we can’t compare his memory to Charlotte.

    But…I have nothing to base this on but I’m gonna throw it out there.

    What if Charlotte was having a “life flashes before your eyes moment” before she dies. And that is the only reason she remembers meeting Daniel. Only in that scenario do you recall all of your life regardless of when those memories take place?

  557. Hooked says:

    A question to the “great debaters” (just kidding) who think Daniel doesn’t remember that he has warned little Charlotte that she will die if she goes back to the island: How does Daniel know that Charlotte will die if she goes back to island if Daniel warned her before he actually knows that she dies when she goes back to the island? At this moment, I think Daniel hasn’t warned her yet, in his timeline, but I can be swayed…just like a Lostie.

  558. RGS says:

    I still believe it’s a having your cake and eating it too and here’s why, I’m not following why Dan has to remember the event happening in “his timeline” or whatever, because Charlotte has established that the event has already transpired, back in the 80’s.

    So on the one hand, let’s say Locke getting shot by Ethan happens in 1992. Richard shows up, gives Locke the compass to show as proof that they are allies when next time they meet. When Locke gives Richard the compass in 1954, that is an event that has yet to happen in “Locke’s timeline” at the time Richard receives the compass. However, it had to have happened before because Richard otherwise would not have had the compass in his possession to give to Locke in 1992. The writer’s purposely created a chicken and the egg paradox to which there is no way to verify which came first.

    Therefore Locke had already done it, but does not remember doing it, or whatever the explanation.

    Daniel and Charlotte death scene. Let’s say it’s 2005. Charlotte tells Dan, I believe you are the scary man that warned me not to come here in 1981. 2005 Dan does not remember because it has yet to happen in his timeline, however, like Hammer pointed out, Charlotte can not remember an event that has never happened. It does not matter whether Dan remembers it, or if it’s the 2009 Dan that told her, because it has already happened. She could not remember an event that had not happened.

    So in my mind it does not matter whether Dan remembers, or if it hasn’t happened in “HIS timeline” because the bottom line is it HAS happened in the past. That’s why to me it is something that has always happened. There is little to nothing he can do (unless he is special like Des, or Des interferes) to change this (or at the very least we will never have proof because Charlotte has died).

  559. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314696"]A question to the “great debaters” (just kidding) who think Daniel doesn’t remember that he has warned little Charlotte that she will die if she goes back to the island: How does Daniel know that Charlotte will die if she goes back to island if Daniel warned her before he actually knows that she dies when she goes back to the island? At this moment, I think Daniel hasn’t warned her yet, in his timeline, but I can be swayed…just like a Lostie.[/quote]

    There are lots of ways to justify Daniel’s telling Charlotte not to return to the island. It may be that he is worried that she MIGHT die and they only way he is sure he can convince her is to tell her she WILL die. We can all make up reasons to shore up whatever point we stand behind. At this point, I think we have another dead horse on our hands. The smell is starting to get to me, so I think I will stop beating it. *g*

    : ) P

  560. Hooked says:

    OK. Thanks for responding.

  561. Rita says:

    [quote comment="314700"][quote comment="314696"]A question to the “great debaters” (just kidding) who think Daniel doesn’t remember that he has warned little Charlotte that she will die if she goes back to the island: How does Daniel know that Charlotte will die if she goes back to island if Daniel warned her before he actually knows that she dies when she goes back to the island? At this moment, I think Daniel hasn’t warned her yet, in his timeline, but I can be swayed…just like a Lostie.[/quote]

    There are lots of ways to justify Daniel’s telling Charlotte not to return to the island. It may be that he is worried that she MIGHT die and they only way he is sure he can convince her is to tell her she WILL die. We can all make up reasons to shore up whatever point we stand behind. At this point, I think we have another dead horse on our hands. The smell is starting to get to me, so I think I will stop beating it. *g*

    : ) P[/quote]
    _______________________________
    Agreed PJ. I have stayed out of this debate because frankly we don’t have enough info yet. I honestly don’t know WHAT I think about all of this! Let’s let the horse rest until we see how things unfold. Bottom line: (at least what I tell myself :) It isn’t real, it doesn’t really work, there will ALWAYS be holes in the theories because people can’t REALLY go back/forward in time – so we can’t expect D&C to come up with a story that REALLY makes complete sense ALL the time. :)

  562. RGS says:

    [quote comment="314700"][quote comment="314696"]A question to the “great debaters” (just kidding) who think Daniel doesn’t remember that he has warned little Charlotte that she will die if she goes back to the island: How does Daniel know that Charlotte will die if she goes back to island if Daniel warned her before he actually knows that she dies when she goes back to the island? At this moment, I think Daniel hasn’t warned her yet, in his timeline, but I can be swayed…just like a Lostie.[/quote]

    There are lots of ways to justify Daniel’s telling Charlotte not to return to the island. It may be that he is worried that she MIGHT die and they only way he is sure he can convince her is to tell her she WILL die. We can all make up reasons to shore up whatever point we stand behind. At this point, I think we have another dead horse on our hands. The smell is starting to get to me, so I think I will stop beating it. *g*

    : ) P[/quote]

    This horse is death.

  563. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="314698"]I still believe it’s a having your cake and eating it too and here’s why, I’m not following why Dan has to remember the event happening in “his timeline” or whatever, because Charlotte has established that the event has already transpired, back in the 80’s.
    ….
    Daniel and Charlotte death scene. Let’s say it’s 2005. Charlotte tells Dan, I believe you are the scary man that warned me not to come here in 1981. 2005 Dan does not remember because it has yet to happen in his timeline, however, like Hammer pointed out, Charlotte can not remember an event that has never happened. It does not matter whether Dan remembers it, or if it’s the 2009 Dan that told her, because it has already happened. She could not remember an event that had not happened

    [/quote]
    I think maybe you’re misunderstanding what londonboy was saying, because I think he was saying the same thing you are. I don’t think he was denying that the 1981 conversation between Charlotte and Daniel had already occurred by the time Charlotte died. He was just saying, as you said, that in 2005, Daniel didn’t remember that conversation, because it hadn’t happened in his timeline yet. (londonboy said that in 519, you said that in 560, right?)

  564. duke says:

    [quote comment="314670"][quote comment="314668"][quote comment="314664"]And I still say you’re off base in thinking (comment #524) that londonboy is “having his cake and eating it too”. His logic is consistent.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Hmmmm, here’s how I see it. She couldn’t have a memory of something that hasn’t happened yet. If she dies today, then he goes to the 70s tomorrow, she could have never known it happened because she died before it did happen. Just like Rouseau didn’t remember Jin, because she died before the time travel happened.[/quote]
    ______________________________
    I know that’s a popular interpretation of what is happening. But I disagree with that. I don’t believe in the theory of “photoshpped” memories. And, if I may speak for londonboy, he doesn’t seem to agree with it either. You may disagree with his “anti-photoshopped” theory, but his logic is consistent.

    As far as Rousseau not remembering Jin, I’ve stated on this thread and on the one for last week’s episode that I find it completely plausible that in 2004 Rousseau did not remember Jin. londonboy also outlines some possible explanations for that in his comment #519.[/quote]
    I have also commented on the Jin/Rous thing for a couple of weeks and will re-explain my thoughts. I do not believe that it happened originally when Danielle made it to the island. How could you not recall an Asian man, the last person you saw on the island (remember she said she never saw the others only heard them) that disappearred TWICE right before your eyes! 2005 Jin could not have travelled to 1988 when in 1988 Jin was only 12 or 13 years old.

  565. duke says:

    [quote comment="314674"][quote comment="314672"]Yeah, I know that those reasons are plausibe. It’s just bad story writing to say that Char as a small child remembers Dan, but Danielle as an adult doesn’t remember Jin. Dan’s telling Char a life saving memory, and Jin’s disappearing act memory are both VERY memorable.

    I’ll back off on the cake eating.

    AND admit that I am treading on this ice because I stronly believe that the losties, Dan included are going to end up ‘stuck’ in the DHARMA 70’s on the island and would be a perfect time for Dan to talk to Char as a child. I don’t like it because the writers will be cake eating if they say that Char remembers something that hasn’t happened yet, but EVERYONE else (Danielle, Richard, Ethan) so far in the story has not.[/quote]
    Well I may be guilty of drinking some Kool-Aid when I say I find it plausible that Danielle didn’t remember Jin, and when I say I have no problem with Ethan seeming to not remember Locke. I choose to think that Ethan did remember Locke in those season 1 episodes, but he couldn’t let on that he did.[/quote]
    The last statement seems like a cop out just to justify your comments.

  566. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="314711"][quote comment="314674"][quote comment="314672"]Yeah, I know that those reasons are plausibe. It’s just bad story writing to say that Char as a small child remembers Dan, but Danielle as an adult doesn’t remember Jin. Dan’s telling Char a life saving memory, and Jin’s disappearing act memory are both VERY memorable.

    I’ll back off on the cake eating.

    AND admit that I am treading on this ice because I stronly believe that the losties, Dan included are going to end up ‘stuck’ in the DHARMA 70’s on the island and would be a perfect time for Dan to talk to Char as a child. I don’t like it because the writers will be cake eating if they say that Char remembers something that hasn’t happened yet, but EVERYONE else (Danielle, Richard, Ethan) so far in the story has not.[/quote]
    Well I may be guilty of drinking some Kool-Aid when I say I find it plausible that Danielle didn’t remember Jin, and when I say I have no problem with Ethan seeming to not remember Locke. I choose to think that Ethan did remember Locke in those season 1 episodes, but he couldn’t let on that he did.[/quote]
    The last statement seems like a cop out just to justify your comments.[/quote]
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I guess it does come across that way, but here’s my reasoning. If Ethan does indeed remember seeing Locke in 2001 (or whatever year that was), then when 2004 rolls around, and Ben dispatches him to infiltrate the Losties, if he were to give away that he recognized Locke, that would have blown his cover. He claimed to be a fellow passenger on OA815, and that story was put in place before he ever laid eyes on Locke. He couldn’t very well say to Locke, hey, I saw you on this island back in 2001!

    Now, I’m not saying that the writers knew from day 1 that Locke would time travel and meet Ethan, and they wrote season 1 with all of that in mind. But I don’t think it’s far-fetched to say Ethan acted like he didn’t recognize Locke, in order to keep his true identity secret.

  567. Hammer says:

    I’m gonna agree with PJ and leave the horse alone. Both sides have made their points and I’m pretty sure that none of us will be swayed until we get the real answer.

    I’m not discourage beating a horse to death, I enjoy it. But at some point we are just repeating our reasons, repeating our reason, repeating our reason…. :)

    You are correct RGS, this horse IS death. LOL

  568. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314702"] Bottom line: (at least what I tell myself :) It isn’t real, it doesn’t really work, there will ALWAYS be holes in the theories because people can’t REALLY go back/forward in time – so we can’t expect D&C to come up with a story that REALLY makes complete sense ALL the time. :)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++++++
    (Whimpering on the floor in the fetal position.) Take it back Rita!!! It’s real, it’s real, it’s real, it’s real…..
    :)

  569. gmta leah says:

    ……but they have all skipped forward in time which makes charlotte,s death premature!…if the time had not started jumping , charlotte would have lived until the orchid had grown over as locke and sawyer found out whilst still holding the rope ? perhaps they all get nose bleeds when they have jumped past ‘their sell by date’.jin didnt have a nose bleed or locke.

  570. gmta leah says:

    ….on another point .the two dead french guys
    were dressed like the original ‘others’exactly . Not in the clothes they arrived in. But like the ones that took walt from the raft.Did smokey take their clothes and give them different ones while they were down the hole?

  571. gmta leah says:

    Its all getting too much!

  572. RGS says:

    [quote comment="314708"]
    I think maybe you’re misunderstanding what londonboy was saying, because I think he was saying the same thing you are. I don’t think he was denying that the 1981 conversation between Charlotte and Daniel had already occurred by the time Charlotte died. He was just saying, as you said, that in 2005, Daniel didn’t remember that conversation, because it hadn’t happened in his timeline yet. (londonboy said that in 519, you said that in 560, right?)[/quote]

    Yep I did state that, but I guess where I was going was that I don’t think there can be separate timelines.

    I think you are saying something along the lines of, there can be a timeline that has yet to occur, a timeline that is occurring, and timeline that occurred in the past.

    My position is that there is just one timeline for each person. One string if you will, where everything has already happened on the string whether you remember it or not, or if it has ‘yet to occur’ according to what we know of time. So each person can move along any point of the string once they “unlock” that capability, OR if the island forces that situation.

    So all that to say, to me, it has happened on Dan’s one timeline, but Dan either doesn’t remember it, or the memory has not been “unlocked” for him yet.

  573. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314722"]….on another point .the two dead french guys
    were dressed like the original ‘others’exactly . Not in the clothes they arrived in. But like the ones that took walt from the raft.Did smokey take their clothes and give them different ones while they were down the hole?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    Interesting….I’ll have to look at that again…

  574. wingman says:

    Geeeez Louise…Read like 300 posts, can’t do anymore..I’ll just comment, those who have to ignore please do so…

    Ben freaked out when he heard Desmond say Faraday’s Mom because he knows Faraday was part of the team sent by Widmore, so if his Mom is “helping” Ben then it may be a trap set by Widmore…

    Everyone is ignoring the fact that Juliet (while not knowing everything) knows so much more..It’s been subtle, but I’m on her radar…Her latest speech to give the group confidence on Locke’s well jumping was just another curious moment (Like her stopping Locke from telling the group Ethan shot him)…

    Went back and watched “Solitary”…Danielle’s story checked out as she offered no specifics to Sayid other than the nuts and bolts of her team getting sick and her killing Robert…Nothing in her admission can rule out her meeting Jin (Skillful writing on their part)…So I will continue to believe what happened always happened…Thank God Charlotte blew that lame photoshop theory outta the water…

    Faraday is Jacob IS a red herring…

    Please let the “Charlotte is Ben’s daughter” debate die a quick and painless death…Has to be the most annoying theory in LOST history to me…Just because anything’s possible doesn’t mean EVERYTHING is possible…

    Finally, who else noticed the word “ILLUSION” painted on one of the boats in the pier during the “Sun shoot Ben” scene? Hmm what does that mean?

  575. RGS says:

    I’m curious as to whether anyone checked out those latitude and longitudes that were in Ms. Hawking’s secret lab. I could have sworn I saw some screencaps in some of my net travels but now I can’t find them anywhere.

  576. LostC says:

    ?????????????????????????

  577. RGS says:

    Phew* I thought I was going crazy. It wasn’t a screencap but an extended screen shot, and it was in a sneak peek for this upcoming episode. So that’s off limits right now.

  578. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="314724"][quote comment="314708"]
    I think maybe you’re misunderstanding what londonboy was saying, because I think he was saying the same thing you are. I don’t think he was denying that the 1981 conversation between Charlotte and Daniel had already occurred by the time Charlotte died. He was just saying, as you said, that in 2005, Daniel didn’t remember that conversation, because it hadn’t happened in his timeline yet. (londonboy said that in 519, you said that in 560, right?)[/quote]

    Yep I did state that, but I guess where I was going was that I don’t think there can be separate timelines.

    I think you are saying something along the lines of, there can be a timeline that has yet to occur, a timeline that is occurring, and timeline that occurred in the past.

    My position is that there is just one timeline for each person. One string if you will, where everything has already happened on the string whether you remember it or not, or if it has ‘yet to occur’ according to what we know of time. So each person can move along any point of the string once they “unlock” that capability, OR if the island forces that situation.

    So all that to say, to me, it has happened on Dan’s one timeline, but Dan either doesn’t remember it, or the memory has not been “unlocked” for him yet.[/quote]
    ________________________________________
    Maybe the confusion is just a matter of the terminology we’re using? I agree with you that there is just one timeline. There is the one overall global timeline. And you could break that down into individual timelines for each person. But each person’s timeline occurs on the global timeline. For example, Geaorge Washington’s timeline occurred from 1732 to 1799, and Abraham Lincoln’s timeline occurred from 1809 to 1865. The were both alive during separate portions of the one overall global timeline that started several billion years ago and will continue for who knows how many more years. So I wouldn’t say they have different timelines. Their portions of the timeline are separate and different, but their portions are still part of the one overall global timeline.

    In the overall global timeline are events that are happening today, and events that have happened in the past, and events that will happen in the future. But those events all happen on the same timeline. However, today, any one person can only remember what has happened prior to today. Noone can “remember” an event that will happen in the future.

    In the case of Daniel, it seems to me that his portion of the timeline consists of the following sequence of events:

    – Late 60’s (?) Born
    – 70’s & early 80’s – Grew up in Essex, Mass (?), attended school there
    – Late 80’s, early 90’s – Attends college, ultimately winding up at Oxford in the 90’s, where he starts to study time travel.
    – Gets a strange visit from Desmond in 1996
    – Late 90’s, early 00’s – Continues to study time travel
    – Early 00’s – Has a major mishap in his time travel experiments that put his girlfriend Theresa in a coma
    – Dec 2004 – watches footage of the discovery of the wreckage of OA815
    – Dec 23 2004 – lands on island with Charlotte and Miles
    – late Dec 2004 – starts time travelling on the island along with Charlotte, Miles, Sawyer, etc
    – Early January 2005 – Charlotte dies
    – Later in 2005, or perhaps 06, or 07, or 08, etc – Time travels back in time, to the 1980’s, is on the island, bumps into Dr. Chang in the Orchid Station, visits the young (8 yrs old?) Charlotte, warns her not to ever go back to the island.

    So in Jan 2005, when Daniel sees Charlotte die, he has not yet gone back to visit young Charlotte on the island. He will do that in a few years. When he does that, he will not inhabit his own 1980’s-era mind and body, he will do it in his own late 2000’s-era mind and body. At the time he does that, there is the 1980’s version of Daniel somewhere else in the world, either in Essex, Mass, or Oxford, or somewhere else, possibly even on the island, but it’s the late 2000’s Daniel that visits the young Charlotte, not the 1980’s Daniel.

    (phew! not only can I not stop beating that horse, I can’t even do it concisely!)

  579. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314727"]
    Finally, who else noticed the word “ILLUSION” painted on one of the boats in the pier during the “Sun shoot Ben” scene? Hmm what does that mean?[/quote]
    I did, before you got to post 300 (it was post 58). Juliette’s knowledge was not ignored, I think PJ brought it up.

  580. RGS says:

    Toeknee re: post 580.

    Your Wrong! Lol, no actually this is the part of the discussion that, if I got too much further into my thoughts w/o command of the subject matter, a careful observer would notice that there is a split in the seat of my pants, exposing me as nothing more than a “miracle tonic salesman” as opposed to a pseudo quantum physicist.

    Sounds like the major difference is that in your post, Time (global time) is linear. The person can only remember events that occur as they progress along the global time. Whereas I am thinking something different, Time being a dimension we don’t fully understand, and a few weeks ago I thought I understood it enough to follow what I thought the writer’s would reveal, but I realize I’m missing a connection and hoping that the show makes that connection.

    I’m far from an Einstein.
    What I think does have something to do with the “Relativistic time versus Newtonian time” found at the wikipedia entry for Time.

  581. londonboy says:

    I’m beginning to wonder if it’s trying to work out this time stuff that sent Rousseau mad in the first place.

    Toeknee seems to say everything I want to say better than me – worrying considering I am a writer by profession – but one last whack at the dead horse and then I’m done (maybe): Charlotte’s past is Dan’s future. It has already happened, but not to him. Unless we find out Dan was also a little boy on the island in the 70s in which case all bets are off.

    As for the French/others situation, I didn’t really recognise the dead Frenchmen. Montand didn’t appear to be one of them, did he? And they were not only in rags, but also had full beard growth, suggesting some time had passed.

    Could they have been brainwashed like the others were attempting with Alex’s boyfriend, or does it look too short a period of time for that? Rousseau’s bump didn’t look that significantly different between scenes, but agreed they seemed to be in others fatigues.

  582. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="314765"]Toeknee re: post 580.

    Your Wrong! Lol, no actually this is the part of the discussion that, if I got too much further into my thoughts w/o command of the subject matter, a careful observer would notice that there is a split in the seat of my pants, exposing me as nothing more than a “miracle tonic salesman” as opposed to a pseudo quantum physicist.

    Sounds like the major difference is that in your post, Time (global time) is linear. The person can only remember events that occur as they progress along the global time. Whereas I am thinking something different, Time being a dimension we don’t fully understand, and a few weeks ago I thought I understood it enough to follow what I thought the writer’s would reveal, but I realize I’m missing a connection and hoping that the show makes that connection.

    I’m far from an Einstein.
    What I think does have something to do with the “Relativistic time versus Newtonian time” found at the wikipedia entry for Time.[/quote]
    Yeah, no doubt there are holes in all of our theories. I think just a few weeks ago, D&C said something like they found it funny that people claimed to know what was going on in Lost, because there’s so much information they haven’t yet revealed and it’s impossible to know what’s going on without seeing the whole picture.

  583. RGS says:

    [quote comment="314769"]
    Toeknee seems to say everything I want to say better than me – worrying considering I am a writer by profession – but one last whack at the dead horse and then I’m done (maybe): Charlotte’s past is Dan’s future. It has already happened, but not to him.

    As for the French/others situation, I didn’t really recognise the dead Frenchmen. Montand didn’t appear to be one of them, did he? And they were not only in rags, but also had full beard growth, suggesting some time had passed.
    [/quote]

    I was going to state that part of your writing issues stemmed from your use of the letter “s” where a “z” is more appropriate ;-). Then I realiSed that in my previous post I used the word “your” as opposed to the contraction “you’re,” which is wrong in any language!

    However, in my defenCe I think I have some kind of language processing disorder which compels me to continually make that particular error…I can’t contain myself!

  584. Mia says:

    I tend to agree with Toeknee that “there is just one timeline for each person. One string if you will”.

    Great summary of Daniel’s timeline from RGS. However, the one sticking point for me is why would Daniel travel back in time to the island in the 80s and still warn young Charlotte not to go back to the island? He obviously knows it’s futile since she dies anyhow.

  585. londonboy says:

    And I’ll stick with the ‘I’m English’ defenCe – no matter how much Microsoft Word wants me to write Americano.

  586. RGS says:

    [quote comment="314785"]I tend to agree with Toeknee that “there is just one timeline for each person. One string if you will”.

    Great summary of Daniel’s timeline from RGS. However, the one sticking point for me is why would Daniel travel back in time to the island in the 80s and still warn young Charlotte not to go back to the island? He obviously knows it’s futile since she dies anyhow.[/quote]

    Thanks Mia, yeah I had been working on that Dan timeline for a couple of hours…wait a minute that wasn’t me, that was Toeknee’s work! I was the one agreeing with the string theory though. Just wanted to make sure you get your heroes in order when the big reveal is made. (No I don’t think I’m the originator of that theory either…just a proponent.)

  587. Eric says:

    Has this issue already been discussed?

    Early when we meet Daniel, he’s doing hte memory game with Charlotte and we think he’s either psychic or gifted (and then we are led to believe radiation or electromagnetic exposure is troubling him).

    I assumed it happened in his lab with his rats.

    Was the proximity to the nuclear bomb on the island the actual culprit? And if so, what meaning does this hold for the story?

  588. Mia says:

    RGS – LOL. I think you are all great. I heard this morning on Detroit radio that LOST is down in the ratings because the general public typically prefers to watch “simpleton” shows and LOST is too intellectual for most people. I guess you can call us the SMARTIES.

  589. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="314785"]I tend to agree with Toeknee that “there is just one timeline for each person. One string if you will”.

    Great summary of Daniel’s timeline from RGS. However, the one sticking point for me is why would Daniel travel back in time to the island in the 80s and still warn young Charlotte not to go back to the island? He obviously knows it’s futile since she dies anyhow.[/quote]
    I agree Daniel knows it’s futile to warn Charlotte, but my guess is his heart over-rules his mind and he issues the warning, in the hopes that she won’t go back to the island and won’t die in Jan. 2005. Kind of a man-of-science vs. man-of-faith moment.

  590. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314794"]RGS – LOL. I think you are all great. I heard this morning on Detroit radio that LOST is down in the ratings because the general public typically prefers to watch “simpleton” shows and LOST is too intellectual for most people. I guess you can call us the SMARTIES.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Hey Mia, from Detroit too. Several of my friends that have watched but are not as ‘into it’ as us are falling off now. The time travel ‘rules’ are not explained well enough and have gotten too confusing. For me, this is the most exciting time in the series. But Lost is not a hobby for them and they don’t want to put the time in.

  591. Mia says:

    Hammer (fellow Detroiter)- you’re right – it is the most exciting time in the series – I’m practically obsessed with it. Most of my friends prefer reality television over this which I so NOT understand. But I can understand ex-losties falling off because it can hurt your head! Also I think the time slot may be too late for some people. By the way, do you listen to Mike in the Morning – WRIF? They have great post-LOST discussions.

  592. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="314796"][quote comment="314794"]RGS – LOL. I think you are all great. I heard this morning on Detroit radio that LOST is down in the ratings because the general public typically prefers to watch “simpleton” shows and LOST is too intellectual for most people. I guess you can call us the SMARTIES.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Hey Mia, from Detroit too. Several of my friends that have watched but are not as ‘into it’ as us are falling off now. The time travel ‘rules’ are not explained well enough and have gotten too confusing. For me, this is the most exciting time in the series. But Lost is not a hobby for them and they don’t want to put the time in.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Hammer, are you trying to get booted from LAA!

    Lost is not a hobby, it’s a lifestyle.

  593. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="314785"]I tend to agree with Toeknee that “there is just one timeline for each person. One string if you will”.

    Great summary of Daniel’s timeline from RGS. However, the one sticking point for me is why would Daniel travel back in time to the island in the 80s and still warn young Charlotte not to go back to the island? He obviously knows it’s futile since she dies anyhow.[/quote]

    I already touched on this, but I’ll try again. Daniel figured Charlotte was in trouble when she started nose bleeding. In the begining of “the Little Prince” we saw Daniel in the Dharma days, assuming that was a flashback/ reveal/ ? not sure what. BUT, what if Daniel had traveled back there during those two hours he was missing on the way back from the hatch to the beach somehow- we just did not see all of it (yet). I know that might be a stretch, but it would allow for Char not to have remembered it ’til now, and for Daniel to have warned her. (obviously, once he got back to the beach and saw that she was still there he would have known it had not worked.)

  594. ESB says:

    [quote comment="314805"][quote comment="314796"][quote comment="314794"]RGS – LOL. I think you are all great. I heard this morning on Detroit radio that LOST is down in the ratings because the general public typically prefers to watch “simpleton” shows and LOST is too intellectual for most people. I guess you can call us the SMARTIES.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Hey Mia, from Detroit too. Several of my friends that have watched but are not as ‘into it’ as us are falling off now. The time travel ‘rules’ are not explained well enough and have gotten too confusing. For me, this is the most exciting time in the series. But Lost is not a hobby for them and they don’t want to put the time in.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Hammer, are you trying to get booted from LAA!

    Lost is not a hobby, it’s a lifestyle.[/quote]

    **************************************

    hmm, i would like to know what everyone (myself included) is going to do with all their spare time when the show is over? haha, get to know your spouses, significant others or kids again? go out and get some spouses. significant others or kids? start obsessing over Heroes or Fringe? turn off the tv’s and read a book or go for a walk? hmm, the possibilities are almost endless…my guess is that long after the show, this and other blogs will still be hopping and jumping with people still arguing and debating about what it all meant…;)

  595. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314803"]Hammer (fellow Detroiter)- you’re right – it is the most exciting time in the series – I’m practically obsessed with it. Most of my friends prefer reality television over this which I so NOT understand. But I can understand ex-losties falling off because it can hurt your head! Also I think the time slot may be too late for some people. By the way, do you listen to Mike in the Morning – WRIF? They have great post-LOST discussions.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Yeah I listen, but they are so far behind this blog. I wish I could get through and set them all straight. :)

  596. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="314814"][quote comment="314785"]I tend to agree with Toeknee that “there is just one timeline for each person. One string if you will”.

    Great summary of Daniel’s timeline from RGS. However, the one sticking point for me is why would Daniel travel back in time to the island in the 80s and still warn young Charlotte not to go back to the island? He obviously knows it’s futile since she dies anyhow.[/quote]

    I already touched on this, but I’ll try again. Daniel figured Charlotte was in trouble when she started nose bleeding. In the begining of “the Little Prince” we saw Daniel in the Dharma days, assuming that was a flashback/ reveal/ ? not sure what. BUT, what if Daniel had traveled back there during those two hours he was missing on the way back from the hatch to the beach somehow- we just did not see all of it (yet). I know that might be a stretch, but it would allow for Char not to have remembered it ’til now, and for Daniel to have warned her. (obviously, once he got back to the beach and saw that she was still there he would have known it had not worked.)[/quote]
    I don’t think Dan could have gone back to Dharma during that time because there were no time jumps then. Des was in the hatch so it was years after the purge.

  597. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314805"]++++++++++++
    Hammer, are you trying to get booted from LAA!

    Lost is not a hobby, it’s a lifestyle.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Shhhhhh!!! My wife checks in…it’s a hobby. ;0)

  598. vavila says:

    Just a few thoughts:

    – on Locke: I think it is possible that what he is doing now is a part of his initiation. Alpert said that there is a chain of command (and i think it is longer than Ben, Alpert, and Jacob) and that leaders are carefully selected from birth. Locke’s willingness to die to safe ‘his people’ and the island may get him some needed points for his initiation…

    – on course correction: in as much as some things are ment to be, there is some room for altering certain things. For example, why did Ms Hawkings when she met Des in the jewelry store tell him all about the ring, then when Des was ready to get it to her suprise, she changed Des’ will to what the ‘course’ according to Ms Hawkins should be. In addition, the whole thing about ‘we need to get back in 70 hours or nothing will matter’ also suggests that outcome is not known yet and suggests that there may be several outcomes. So in as much as some things are meant to be, others can be altered i believe…

    – I also think that there is some interesting multi-generation thing going on with regards to the island. From the issues with having babies to the Jack/Christian, Faraday/Hawkins and potentially other duos that may go way back…

  599. Missy says:

    [quote comment="314816"][quote comment="314805"][quote comment="314796"][quote comment="314794"]RGS – LOL. I think you are all great. I heard this morning on Detroit radio that LOST is down in the ratings because the general public typically prefers to watch “simpleton” shows and LOST is too intellectual for most people. I guess you can call us the SMARTIES.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Hey Mia, from Detroit too. Several of my friends that have watched but are not as ‘into it’ as us are falling off now. The time travel ‘rules’ are not explained well enough and have gotten too confusing. For me, this is the most exciting time in the series. But Lost is not a hobby for them and they don’t want to put the time in.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Hammer, are you trying to get booted from LAA!

    Lost is not a hobby, it’s a lifestyle.[/quote]

    **************************************

    hmm, i would like to know what everyone (myself included) is going to do with all their spare time when the show is over? haha, get to know your spouses, significant others or kids again? go out and get some spouses. significant others or kids? start obsessing over Heroes or Fringe? turn off the tv’s and read a book or go for a walk? hmm, the possibilities are almost endless…my guess is that long after the show, this and other blogs will still be hopping and jumping with people still arguing and debating about what it all meant…;)[/quote]

    I have a feeling that when alls said and done – and all the mysteries have been explained that we’ll all want to watch it all over and over again to see all the things we missed along the way. Sort of like after watching the Sixth Sense – wonder how so many clues were overlooked (:

  600. ESB says:

    [quote comment="314822"][quote comment="314816"][quote comment="314805"][quote comment="314796"][quote comment="314794"]
    Hammer, are you trying to get booted from LAA!

    Lost is not a hobby, it’s a lifestyle.[/quote]

    **************************************

    hmm, i would like to know what everyone (myself included) is going to do with all their spare time when the show is over? haha, get to know your spouses, significant others or kids again? go out and get some spouses. significant others or kids? start obsessing over Heroes or Fringe? turn off the tv’s and read a book or go for a walk? hmm, the possibilities are almost endless…my guess is that long after the show, this and other blogs will still be hopping and jumping with people still arguing and debating about what it all meant…;)[/quote]

    I have a feeling that when alls said and done – and all the mysteries have been explained that we’ll all want to watch it all over and over again to see all the things we missed along the way. Sort of like after watching the Sixth Sense – wonder how so many clues were overlooked (:[/quote]

    *************************************

    haha, i think you are probably right…;)

  601. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314816"]hmm, i would like to know what everyone (myself included) is going to do with all their spare time when the show is over?[/quote]

    If you mean May 2010, here is my plan. I figure there is at LEAST a week’s worth of debate and discussion about the finale here. That will allow a slow release from the addiction. I will give it another full week of mourning the loss of LOST, followed by about three weeks of intense DT’s, and possibly another four weeks of full-on depression.

    At that point, two months will have passed, and for the next three or four months, I will reacquaint myself with my family, who will discover that I can be a fully content and aware human being on Wednesday nights, and can actually participate in real life activities on Thursday and Friday.

    That will bring us to November 2010, which is when I expect Season 6 to be released on DVD. I plan to purchase the entire series on DVD at that time and start watching again from the beginning, knowing all there is to know BEFORE the series begins!

    (I say that as my PLAN, but knowing my limitations of self-control, I will probably RENT seasons 1 through 5 on DVD and watch them all starting June 1st, followed by Season 6 – available online at ABC.com. That will take me though the middle of July. THEN the withdrawal will begin!)

    : ) P

  602. ESB says:

    [quote comment="314825"][quote comment="314816"]hmm, i would like to know what everyone (myself included) is going to do with all their spare time when the show is over?[/quote]

    If you mean May 2010, here is my plan. I figure there is at LEAST a week’s worth of debate and discussion about the finale here. That will allow a slow release from the addiction. I will give it another full week of mourning the loss of LOST, followed by about three weeks of intense DT’s, and possibly another four weeks of full-on depression.

    At that point, two months will have passed, and for the next three or four months, I will reacquaint myself with my family, who will discover that I can be a fully content and aware human being on Wednesday nights, and can actually participate in real life activities on Thursday and Friday.

    That will bring us to November 2010, which is when I expect Season 6 to be released on DVD. I plan to purchase the entire series on DVD at that time and start watching again from the beginning, knowing all there is to know BEFORE the series begins!

    (I say that as my PLAN, but knowing my limitations of self-control, I will probably RENT seasons 1 through 5 on DVD and watch them all starting June 1st, followed by Season 6 – available online at ABC.com. That will take me though the middle of July. THEN the withdrawal will begin!)

    : ) P[/quote]

    hahaha – PJ, you rule! ;)

  603. lmm says:

    I was wondering if anyone can comment on who the woman on life-support that des went to see when he was looking for faraday’s mom? Also, unrelated topic but does anyone think Walt is relevant to the story anymore? just curious…

  604. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314831"]I was wondering if anyone can comment on who the woman on life-support that des went to see when he was looking for faraday’s mom? Also, unrelated topic but does anyone think Walt is relevant to the story anymore? just curious…[/quote]

    For discussions on Theresa, please check the “Jughead” thread, starting at post 144.

    I believe Walt is relevant, yes. If he were not, I believe we would not have seen his character visit Hurley at Santa Rosa. D&C would have just left him out and encouraged us to forget about him.

    : ) P

  605. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="314794"]
    hmm, i would like to know what everyone (myself included) is going to do with all their spare time when the show is over? [/quote]

    Wait for the spin-off “Found”.

  606. emit says:

    [quote comment="314658"][quote comment="314655"]To RGS (#522) and Hammer (#524)

    I don’t think londonboy is contradicting himself in these paragraphs. And I agree with his interpretation of what is happening. But to re-word what he’s saying about Daniel and Charlotte…..

    Let’s assume the date of Charlotte’s death is January 2005. The Daniel that talks to Charlotte as a young girl is the Daniel from sometime after Jan 2005, say 2009 Daniel. So, during Charlotte’s death scene, Charlotte remembers her encounter with 2009 Daniel because 2005 Charlotte already experienced that. However, 2005 Daniel has not experienced it, so it’s not possible for him to remember it in 2005.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    Still not good for me. They are skipping in time together. It would make sense if he was visiting her in a different time. But since they are together this timeline it would have as ‘always’ happened for him too IF you believe that IT has ALWAYS HAPPENED for her.

    I am sticking with it already happened, he just doesn’t remember it.[/quote]
    ===========================

    They are skipping in time toagether.
    Charlotte dies.
    Daniel continues to skip in time ALONE.
    Daniel meets young Charlotte, warns her.

    Is that a little bit clearer?

  607. PJSander says:

    Okay, so this is kind of silly, but it has been BUGGING me for the last six days, since this new thread was put up on this site.

    JIN’S HAIR.

    In the photo at the top of this page, he has a real pin-curl thing going on. I mean, seriously, it sort of looks like Mike Brady did in the final season of the Brady Bunch. That is a LOT of curl!

    I realize it is a continuity issue, but Jin had VERY straight hair in season one. And even in his appearance at the end of Season four, it was NOT that curly or that long:

    http://tinyurl.com/jinhair

    I honestly don’t think this would have bothered me much if I didn’t see that photo of Jin at the top of this page every time I refresh the messages!

    I know, tell me I am crazy!

    : ) P

  608. Mia says:

    Anyone have any insight into tomorrow nights episode? I understand that Frank Lapidus will be in it – I’m anxious to see what transpired with him after the rescue…

  609. Mia says:

    Anyone have any insight into tomorrow night’s episode? I understand that Frank Lapidus will be in it – I’m anxious to see what transpired with him after the rescue…

  610. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="314840"]Anyone have any insight into tomorrow nights episode? I understand that Frank Lapidus will be in it – I’m anxious to see what transpired with him after the rescue…[/quote]

    If anyone DOES have insight, Mia, they probably won’t discuss it because this is one of very few blogs where we DON’T discuss spoilers or previews – which is why we are here. We don’t WANT to be spoiled!

    When LOST is over on Wednesday nights, I close my eyes and put my fingers in my ears while my SO watches the preview for next week! They are usually misleading ANYWAY, but I prefer to avoid them.

    : ) P

  611. Circus Mom says:

    I have a new theory about the 70 hours.

    They keep saying that the O6 “wern’t supposed to leave”. What if they have to be back before 70 hours is up because one of them is/was supposed to travel into the past to make something happen. If they are’t on the island they can’t time travel and do whateverit is in the past. Since everything in the past already happened that would “break” the timeline somehow.

  612. Rita says:

    [quote comment="314828"][quote comment="314825"][quote comment="314816"]hmm, i would like to know what everyone (myself included) is going to do with all their spare time when the show is over?[/quote]

    If you mean May 2010, here is my plan. I figure there is at LEAST a week’s worth of debate and discussion about the finale here. That will allow a slow release from the addiction. I will give it another full week of mourning the loss of LOST, followed by about three weeks of intense DT’s, and possibly another four weeks of full-on depression.

    At that point, two months will have passed, and for the next three or four months, I will reacquaint myself with my family, who will discover that I can be a fully content and aware human being on Wednesday nights, and can actually participate in real life activities on Thursday and Friday.

    That will bring us to November 2010, which is when I expect Season 6 to be released on DVD. I plan to purchase the entire series on DVD at that time and start watching again from the beginning, knowing all there is to know BEFORE the series begins!

    (I say that as my PLAN, but knowing my limitations of self-control, I will probably RENT seasons 1 through 5 on DVD and watch them all starting June 1st, followed by Season 6 – available online at ABC.com. That will take me though the middle of July. THEN the withdrawal will begin!)

    : ) P[/quote]

    hahaha – PJ, you rule! ;)[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    I will be looking for LAA meetings like crazy! Anyone wanting to start a chapter here in the Thumb, I’m all in!

  613. Mia says:

    Oops – sorry – I don’t want anyone to discuss spoilers….

  614. Amber says:

    wow the thought of lost ending is so sad! I havent even been thinking about that. I guess my husband and friends will be happy. They think I am such a dork for loving this show so much. Even though the show is on wednesdays its like a 3 day thing for me. Wednesday i watch it and thursday and friday yall keep me busy reading this blog! Im going to have 3 whole days back. WOW what am i going to do

  615. gmta leah says:

    [quote comment="314822"][quote comment="314816"][quote comment="314805"][quote comment="314796"][quote comment="314794"]RGS – LOL. I think you are all great. I heard this morning on Detroit radio that LOST is down in the ratings because the general public typically prefers to watch “simpleton” shows and LOST is too intellectual for most people. I guess you can call us the SMARTIES.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Hey Mia, from Detroit too. Several of my friends that have watched but are not as ‘into it’ as us are falling off now. The time travel ‘rules’ are not explained well enough and have gotten too confusing. For me, this is the most exciting time in the series. But Lost is not a hobby for them and they don’t want to put the time in.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Hammer, are you trying to get booted from LAA!

    Lost is not a hobby, it’s a lifestyle.[/quote]

    **************************************

    hmm, i would like to know what everyone (myself included) is going to do with all their spare time when the show is over? haha, get to know your spouses, significant others or kids again? go out and get some spouses. significant others or kids? start obsessing over Heroes or Fringe? turn off the tv’s and read a book or go for a walk? hmm, the possibilities are almost endless…my guess is that long after the show, this and other blogs will still be hopping and jumping with people still arguing and debating about what it all meant…;)[/quote]

    I have a feeling that when alls said and done – and all the mysteries have been explained that we’ll all want to watch it all over and over again to see all the things we missed along the way. Sort of like after watching the Sixth Sense – wonder how so many clues were overlooked (:[/quote]
    /////////////
    when its all over, i say we try and get to know each other after all we ll have been blogging together for a long time by then .we could try an hook up little chapters .organise “eyeballs” around the globe? And compile a “one hundred lost mysteries unexplained”list…?????

  616. gmta leah says:

    [quote comment="314794"]RGS – LOL. I think you are all great. I heard this morning on Detroit radio that LOST is down in the ratings because the general public typically prefers to watch “simpleton” shows and LOST is too intellectual for most people. I guess you can call us the SMARTIES.[/quote]
    /////////////////////////
    I do think this blog has increased though , i dont remember there being 500+ posts in earlier seasons ?? or were there?

  617. gmta leah says:

    [quote comment="314786"]And I’ll stick with the ‘I’m English’ defenCe – no matter how much Microsoft Word wants me to write Americano.[/quote]
    ////////////////
    I understand you perfectly ,old chap!

  618. wingman says:

    Other than obviously “solitary”…Were there any suggestions of episodes to go back and watch following “TPID”??

  619. DocH says:

    [quote]hmm, i would like to know what everyone (myself included) is going to do with all their spare time when the show is over?[/quote]

    After LOST
    – DAY ONE –
    Well, the morning after the last episode, everyone is going to wake… and there will be a camera focused on just one of your eyes. Then you will hear distant screaming. You will get up quickly to see what it is. But, as you get closer, you will hear barely audible voices that you can’t quite figure out where they are coming from. After that, a hideous screeling noise will race towards you – then stop and rattle the vegetation around you. You will dive into the nearest bamboo grove to save yourself. After you are safe, you will never ever discuss what you had seen with anyone else – even though everyone else has seen it too. After that, you’ll search for food. You are certain you’ve only barely eaten in the past four months, yet you haven’t lost a pound. After spearing a fish, and grabbing a couple of spoonfuls of mayo from the bottomless, five gallon mayo jar, you head out for some sun on the bench in front of your house – which you have recently re-named… “Santa Rosa”. Almost as soon you sitdown, your good friends Charlie and Hugo pop-by for a chat. Dave couldn’t make it. As soon as that friendly guy in the white suit, who looks a bit like an orderly, brings you those pills that make you feel happy – your friends diasappear. Then it’s off to the basketball court for an afternoon of H-O-R-S-E.
    – DAY TWO –
    (see above)
    – DAY THREE –
    (see above)
    – DAY FOUR –
    (repeat as necessary)

  620. Amber says:

    So I started to rewatch the seasons on abc.com and im now on season 2 episode 7 and when Ana Lucia goes up the mountain with goodwin he starts to cut up a mango with the knife she got off one of the dead others and she points out to him that its a U.S army knife and she shows him the stamp on it. Then she said it was probably over 20 years old. That it was strange that they were running around with no shoes on yet they had the knife from the U.S military. I just think its neat that after this is all done there are going to be soooo many things like that, that we will notice, because until jughead that really meant nothing. But now you kind of realize they had to have had this whole story way figured out!

  621. Downunder says:

    DocH, you should direct the next epsisode!

  622. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="314869"][quote comment="314794"]RGS – LOL. I think you are all great. I heard this morning on Detroit radio that LOST is down in the ratings because the general public typically prefers to watch “simpleton” shows and LOST is too intellectual for most people. I guess you can call us the SMARTIES.[/quote]
    /////////////////////////
    I do think this blog has increased though , i dont remember there being 500+ posts in earlier seasons ?? or were there?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    I think we went over 1000 a couple times last season. MEET KEVIN JOHNSON was one for sure.

  623. Eric says:

    Why would you get Jeff Fahey to join your show if you didn’t have something interesting for him?

    Frank Lapidus’ story is just beginning I think…

  624. Missy says:

    [quote comment="314945"]Why would you get Jeff Fahey to join your show if you didn’t have something interesting for him?

    Frank Lapidus’ story is just beginning I think…[/quote]

    ____
    Frank was supposed to be the pilot of 815, correct? But he was too drunk to fly or something…

  625. Rita says:

    [quote comment="314945"]Why would you get Jeff Fahey to join your show if you didn’t have something interesting for him?

    Frank Lapidus’ story is just beginning I think…[/quote]
    ________________________________________
    I hope you are right. He has already been shown to be connected to the LOSTies (as the suppose-to-be-pilot). If we are going with the “everyone was put on the plane on purpose” idea, then he had a reason to be there too. We havent’ had enough about him yet!

  626. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="314822"][quote comment="314816"][quote comment="314805"][quote comment="314796"][quote comment="314794"]RGS – LOL. I think you are all great. I heard this morning on Detroit radio that LOST is down in the ratings because the general public typically prefers to watch “simpleton” shows and LOST is too intellectual for most people. I guess you can call us the SMARTIES.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Hey Mia, from Detroit too. Several of my friends that have watched but are not as ‘into it’ as us are falling off now. The time travel ‘rules’ are not explained well enough and have gotten too confusing. For me, this is the most exciting time in the series. But Lost is not a hobby for them and they don’t want to put the time in.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Hammer, are you trying to get booted from LAA!

    Lost is not a hobby, it’s a lifestyle.[/quote]

    **************************************

    hmm, i would like to know what everyone (myself included) is going to do with all their spare time when the show is over? haha, get to know your spouses, significant others or kids again? go out and get some spouses. significant others or kids? start obsessing over Heroes or Fringe? turn off the tv’s and read a book or go for a walk? hmm, the possibilities are almost endless…my guess is that long after the show, this and other blogs will still be hopping and jumping with people still arguing and debating about what it all meant…;)[/quote]

    I have a feeling that when alls said and done – and all the mysteries have been explained that we’ll all want to watch it all over and over again to see all the things we missed along the way. Sort of like after watching the Sixth Sense – wonder how so many clues were overlooked (:[/quote]
    \
    ________________________

    I keep thinking that they WONT answer all the mysteries and we will keep debating over it. Maybe there will be some sort of sequel afterward…I hope cause I don’t know what I will do with my life after it’s all over.

    I just read over a hundred comments. Not sure if I caught everything and now I have a headache lol. I am sticking with my theory that Dan telling Charlotte not to go back to the island is in his future. I still think that this is a record and time is replaying itself and all of this has happened before but the future people don’t realize it! That’s all my input for this episode!! Can’t wait til tonight!!!

  627. wingman says:

    Dang, I’m gonna ask 1 more time since I don’t watch new episodes until the weekend…Are there any episodes mentioned from any sources that were suggested for us to go back and watch after “TPID” (Besides “solitary” which was about Danielle capturing Sayid)?

  628. WILLOW says:

    Hi everyone!Just joined the blog.

  629. wingman says:

    Man, you guys suck…

  630. wingman says:

    sorry, I meant wingman sucks

  631. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="315010"]Dang, I’m gonna ask 1 more time since I don’t watch new episodes until the weekend…Are there any episodes mentioned from any sources that were suggested for us to go back and watch after “TPID” (Besides “solitary” which was about Danielle capturing Sayid)?[/quote]
    LOL wingman hopefully you’ll check this thread for a reply….

    On this board, I think by Wednesday, most people are anticipating the new episode, and the thread for the preceeding week’s episode gets ignored. So don’t take it personally that you didn’t get a response.

    I’m not sure exactly what you’re interested in. When you mention “sources”, are you thinking D&C, or ABC or some official source? I don’t think they ever say, “OK, you should go back and watch XX episode now”. Also, are you interested in episodes that will perhaps explain/foreshadow events in “TPID”, or are you looking for episodes that will be good preparation for the next episode, “316”?

    Either way, at this point in the series, with every new episode I watch I find myself saying, “Gotta go back and re-watch XX episode” a bazillion times. It’s really hard to pinpoint one or two episodes that will give good background info for the current episodes. For example, for “TPID”, you already got one of them – “Solitary”.

    But a big discussion on this thread has been, Shouldn’t Rousseau have remembered Jin when she saw him after OA815 crashed? And another was, do the events in TPID match up with what Rousseau has told us in the past? To help answer these questions, I’d go back and watch every episode that featured Rousseau.

    Another example – At one point you can hear a male voice over Montand’s radio reciting The Numbers. (I don’t remember if that was in TPID or The Little Prince, or both). But based on that, you might want to go back and re-watch Numbers.

    Another example – regarding the “316” episode – and this mayb be a spoiler if you haven’t seen “316” so if you don’t want to be spoiled stop reading now – it would be beneficial to rewatch ALL of season 1 to glean as much info as you can about the circumstances surrounding flight OA815. How each character came to get on the plane, what they did in the days before the flight, events that happened in the airport prior to the flight, etc.

    So, like I said, at this point there are so many references to the past, and events we’ve seen in past episodes, that it’s hard to say what one or two episodes are the best ones to watch along with a current episode.

  632. wingman says:

    Thanx Toeknee…I was more or less looking for eps that potentially help you with “TPID”, not an episode to prepare for this week, which I have not watched yet (Yeah I gotta wait til tonight when I’m totally free and can escape life)…It’s actually Mardi Gras in New Orleans where I live so I better watch tonight or I probably won’t have time to sit down with all the activities I’m doing this weekend, but yeah I always look for specific eps to go back and watch after a new ep (Well specifically this season where the whole time-travel aspect has peaked)…

  633. wingman says:

    Oh yeah I mean suggestions from either official (like D&C or abc-crawl guys) or unofficial (like some awesome fan who just knows immediately what ep to watch)^^…

  634. jordan says:

    [quote comment="313659"]So I wonder where in the world Locke will end up when he dies on the island (if in fact he does actually “die”). How does Ben know where to find him since he himself ended up in a Tunisian desert?[/quote]
    How did ben and the polar bear get into the tunisian desert in the first place

  635. jordan says:

    [quote comment="313659"]So I wonder where in the world Locke will end up when he dies on the island (if in fact he does actually “die”). How does Ben know where to find him since he himself ended up in a Tunisian desert?[/quote]
    How did ben and the polar bear get into the tunisian desert in the first place

  636. KristenG. says:

    OMFG!!! im so glad that jin is alive , & im really lookin forward to more jin & my husband sawyer . i swear when jin “died” , me & my sister cried so much!

Comments are closed.