The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham

locke_bentham_s5.jpg

Pretty clear from the title and the preview last week what this episode is going to be about – John Locke and his short life as one Jeremy Bentham. It goes without saying that this is probably one of the most highly anticipated episodes of this season, considering it is essentially the follow-up to Season 4’s cliff hanger.

ABC’s Official Show Description

Spoiler Alert:

“Locke’s fateful mission off the island as Jeremy Bentham is revealed.”

The preview for this week and the sneak peeks have a few spoilers, so proceed at your own risk. If you are looking for a prelude to get even more excited about tonight than you already are, I would recommend at least carefully watching the preview again – and then think back to the dialogue Jack and Ben had on Flight 316 last week…

The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham Preview

Sneak Peeks

Sneak Peek 1 | Sneak Peek 2 | Sneak Peek 3

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667 Responses to The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham

  1. Rita says:

    Wow, up already! It’s Wednesday finally. Getting ready for a rocking episode tonight!!

  2. Tony says:

    Locke looks f-ing tough in this pic.

  3. ESB says:

    very curious to see where he ends up after turning the FDW and how he gets to LA from there…pretty damn excited about this episode…;)

  4. jaime says:

    [quote comment="316092"]very curious to see where he ends up after turning the FDW and how he gets to LA from there…pretty damn excited about this episode…;)[/quote]
    *******************************************************

    My guess is Tunisia. The bear went there, Ben went there. He’ll get to LA via help from either Hawking’s, Ben’s, or Widmore’s people.

    For anyone recording tonight’s episode…I’ve heard that it will run over by 6 minutes.

  5. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316093"][quote comment="316092"]very curious to see where he ends up after turning the FDW and how he gets to LA from there…pretty damn excited about this episode…;)[/quote]
    *******************************************************

    My guess is Tunisia. The bear went there, Ben went there. He’ll get to LA via help from either Hawking’s, Ben’s, or Widmore’s people.

    For anyone recording tonight’s episode…I’ve heard that it will run over by 6 minutes.[/quote]

    *********************************

    haha, so he’s going to just appear in the middle of the desert, with no money or passports or weapons, and just hope that someone comes to help him or at least pick him up?? i’m sure your right but i am very curious how the writers do it…;)

  6. ESB says:

    ..oh yeah, and let’s not forget the fact that he has a pretty serious leg wound to boot…;)

  7. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316092"]very curious to see where he ends up after turning the FDW and how he gets to LA from there…pretty damn excited about this episode…;)[/quote]
    I just as curious as to WHEN he arrives. I assume it is only a month or 2 before his death. I wouldn’t be surprised if his “window” was the Lamp Post, if that is even possible.

  8. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316101"]..oh yeah, and let’s not forget the fact that he has a pretty serious leg wound to boot…;)[/quote]
    I am not sure he would feel that.

  9. Rita says:

    [quote comment="316112"][quote comment="316101"]..oh yeah, and let’s not forget the fact that he has a pretty serious leg wound to boot…;)[/quote]
    I am not sure he would feel that.[/quote]
    ______________________________
    curious, why don’t you think he would feel it? He was in pain when he turned the wheel, I imagine he still would be when he gets to where he is going.

  10. Hammer says:

    Since there is only one meaning for the title, I thought this was interesting….especially his ‘odd’ request: (I’m sure this was brought up in the past.)

    Born: 15 February 1748
    Birthplace: London, England
    Died: 6 June 1832
    Best Known As: The father of Utilitarianism

    Jeremy Bentham was a founder of Utilitarianism — simply put, the philosophy that a moral act is one which produces the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people. He outlined this theory in his 1789 work, Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation. Bentham’s outlook made him a vocal critic of many legal and political institutions, and he was considered quite radical for his day. (He was particularly critical of Sir William Blackstone, author of Blackstone’s Commentaries and the most famous English legal mind of that era.)

    Bentham also is known for an odd request in his will: he ordered that his remains be preserved and kept in a box, to be displayed on occasion to friends and followers. This “auto-icon,” duly dressed in Bentham’s own clothes, is kept in a special cabinet at University College London to this day.

    Bentham strongly influenced the philosopher John Stuart Mill, who wrote the 1861 book Utilitarianism… Bentham entered Queen’s College, Oxford at age 12 and graduated in 1764.

  11. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316112"][quote comment="316101"]..oh yeah, and let’s not forget the fact that he has a pretty serious leg wound to boot…;)[/quote]
    I am not sure he would feel that.[/quote]

    ***************************************

    VERY good point, but for some reason i don’t think he’s going to be crippled when he’s back…not sure why, i just don’t….i think the island healed him and i think that it’ll stick whether he’s on it or not…however, i’m wrong A LOT, so i guess we’ll see…;)

  12. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316111"][quote comment="316092"]very curious to see where he ends up after turning the FDW and how he gets to LA from there…pretty damn excited about this episode…;)[/quote]
    I just as curious as to WHEN he arrives. I assume it is only a month or 2 before his death. I wouldn’t be surprised if his “window” was the Lamp Post, if that is even possible.[/quote]

    ***************************************

    you mean maybe he’ll appear at the Lamp Post, instead of Tunisia? hmm…certainly would make the question of travel and assets a lot less important…;)

  13. jeramy says:

    can’t wait! i love this show! wednesday is the best night of the week.

  14. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316123"][quote comment="316112"][quote comment="316101"]..oh yeah, and let’s not forget the fact that he has a pretty serious leg wound to boot…;)[/quote]
    I am not sure he would feel that.[/quote]

    ***************************************

    VERY good point, but for some reason i don’t think he’s going to be crippled when he’s back…not sure why, i just don’t….i think the island healed him and i think that it’ll stick whether he’s on it or not…however, i’m wrong A LOT, so i guess we’ll see…;)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Not positive, but didn’t Ben ‘keep’ his arm wound when he turned the wheel?

  15. LizS says:

    I’m excited for this! I want this to be the pivotal ep of the season–which it looks to be–I hope to be surprised, in the good way, maybe I’ll even be forced to take back some of the things I said about John Locke. I hope the direction and meaning To All Of This is a little clearer.

    Hey, hope springs eternal!

    See ya in the afterglow! Cheers, Liz

  16. Skweez says:

    I hope we get to see Abbadon tonight. Maybe he’ll collect on his, “the next time I see you, you’ll owe me one”.

  17. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316133"]
    Not positive, but didn’t Ben ‘keep’ his arm wound when he turned the wheel?[/quote]
    Not suggesting his wound healed, he was paralyzed before, although as ESB stated he might not be paralyzed again.

  18. Skweez says:

    [quote comment="316130"]can’t wait! i love this show! wednesday is the best night of the week.[/quote]

    *******************
    Yes, Hammer, you are correct. Ben was still wounded when he wound up in the desert.

  19. Skweez says:

    How long from the time the freighter blew up to the time Locke turns the wheel?

  20. Angel says:

    I think the leg wound wont heal because it happened ON the island. If you were injured BEFORE you arrive at the island, you get healed. I think :)

  21. Angel says:

    [quote comment="316140"]How long from the time the freighter blew up to the time Locke turns the wheel?[/quote]
    Im thinking a few days.

  22. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316136"]I hope we get to see Abbadon tonight. Maybe he’ll collect on his, “the next time I see you, you’ll owe me one”.[/quote]
    Me too. I am a HUGE fan of Reddick, ever since OZ.

  23. jaime says:

    [quote comment="316133"][quote comment="316123"][quote comment="316112"][quote comment="316101"]..oh yeah, and let’s not forget the fact that he has a pretty serious leg wound to boot…;)[/quote]
    I am not sure he would feel that.[/quote]

    ***************************************

    VERY good point, but for some reason i don’t think he’s going to be crippled when he’s back…not sure why, i just don’t….i think the island healed him and i think that it’ll stick whether he’s on it or not…however, i’m wrong A LOT, so i guess we’ll see…;)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Not positive, but didn’t Ben ‘keep’ his arm wound when he turned the wheel?[/quote]
    *******************************************

    For sure he’ll still have his broken leg, he’s in a wheelchair in LA.

  24. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316111"][quote comment="316092"]very curious to see where he ends up after turning the FDW and how he gets to LA from there…pretty damn excited about this episode…;)[/quote]
    I just as curious as to WHEN he arrives. I assume it is only a month or 2 before his death. I wouldn’t be surprised if his “window” was the Lamp Post, if that is even possible.[/quote]

    ***************************************

    you mean maybe he’ll appear at the Lamp Post, instead of Tunisia? hmm…certainly would make the question of travel and assets a lot less important…;)[quote comment="316133"][quote comment="316123"][quote comment="316112"][quote comment="316101"]..oh yeah, and let’s not forget the fact that he has a pretty serious leg wound to boot…;)[/quote]
    I am not sure he would feel that.[/quote]

    ***************************************

    VERY good point, but for some reason i don’t think he’s going to be crippled when he’s back…not sure why, i just don’t….i think the island healed him and i think that it’ll stick whether he’s on it or not…however, i’m wrong A LOT, so i guess we’ll see…;)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Not positive, but didn’t Ben ‘keep’ his arm wound when he turned the wheel?[/quote]

    *******************************************

    yes, Ben kept the wound…i think the point is will Locke feel his legs AT ALL when he goes back? does his ability to walk saty with him when he’s off the island or is he back in a wheelchair…my opinion is that he’ll still be able to walk but who knows…

  25. duke says:

    [quote comment="316100"][quote comment="316093"][quote comment="316092"]very curious to see where he ends up after turning the FDW and how he gets to LA from there…pretty damn excited about this episode…;)[/quote]
    *******************************************************

    My guess is Tunisia. The bear went there, Ben went there. He’ll get to LA via help from either Hawking’s, Ben’s, or Widmore’s people.

    For anyone recording tonight’s episode…I’ve heard that it will run over by 6 minutes.[/quote]

    *********************************

    haha, so he’s going to just appear in the middle of the desert, with no money or passports or weapons, and just hope that someone comes to help him or at least pick him up?? i’m sure your right but i am very curious how the writers do it…;)[/quote]
    If you remember when Ben showed up a couple of guys, they probably work for Widmore, were there. Ben beat them up. I predict that these are people who work for Widmore manning that area because Widmore knows that is where you go when you leave the island (possibly because Widmore ended up there when he left).

  26. duke says:

    [quote comment="316111"][quote comment="316092"]very curious to see where he ends up after turning the FDW and how he gets to LA from there…pretty damn excited about this episode…;)[/quote]
    I just as curious as to WHEN he arrives. I assume it is only a month or 2 before his death. I wouldn’t be surprised if his “window” was the Lamp Post, if that is even possible.[/quote]
    I also believe and have been saying this for several episodes that Locke will realize that the O6 have been gone three years but to him it will only seem like a week or so since they were rescued.

  27. ESB says:

    sorry L4E, i answered before i was finished reading…AGAIN…my bad on the repeat-ish post…;)

  28. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316152"][quote comment="316100"][quote comment="316093"][quote comment="316092"]very curious to see where he ends up after turning the FDW and how he gets to LA from there…pretty damn excited about this episode…;)[/quote]
    *******************************************************

    My guess is Tunisia. The bear went there, Ben went there. He’ll get to LA via help from either Hawking’s, Ben’s, or Widmore’s people.

    For anyone recording tonight’s episode…I’ve heard that it will run over by 6 minutes.[/quote]

    *********************************

    haha, so he’s going to just appear in the middle of the desert, with no money or passports or weapons, and just hope that someone comes to help him or at least pick him up?? i’m sure your right but i am very curious how the writers do it…;)[/quote]
    If you remember when Ben showed up a couple of guys, they probably work for Widmore, were there. Ben beat them up. I predict that these are people who work for Widmore manning that area because Widmore knows that is where you go when you leave the island (possibly because Widmore ended up there when he left).[/quote]

    ************************************

    possible and probable…but it’s also just as likely that they were just two bedouins patrolling their patch of dirt at the wrong time…either way tho, Locke won’t have Ben’s passports, aliases, money or his nifty little night-stick-baton thing…that plus a broken leg and/or being completely crippled makes me think the writers will have him ‘appear’ somewhere besides Tunisia…as i think L4E suggested, maybe the Lamp Post is a possibility…survival for Locke in Tunisia seems like stretch even for this show…;)

  29. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316154"]
    I also believe and have been saying this for several episodes that Locke will realize that the O6 have been gone three years but to him it will only seem like a week or so since they were rescued.[/quote]
    Not even that long. We have seen how long Locke was on the island before turning the wheel. WHEN will he return to the real world, though? What time? Ben jumped 10 months into the future ( conviently just in time for the death of Nadia ), how far will Locke jump?

  30. Jen says:

    I hope it is revealed how Jack & the other O6 knew that Jeremy Bentham was John Locke.

  31. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316165"]I hope it is revealed how Jack & the other O6 knew that Jeremy Bentham was John Locke.[/quote]
    I am sure it will be. Remember the episode last year about Michael, Meet Kevin Johnson? I think we are in for an episode similar to that one. Answers to questions, then, MORE questions to answer.:)

  32. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316156"]************************************

    possible and probable…but it’s also just as likely that they were just two bedouins patrolling their patch of dirt at the wrong time…either way tho, Locke won’t have Ben’s passports, aliases, money or his nifty little night-stick-baton thing…that plus a broken leg and/or being completely crippled makes me think the writers will have him ‘appear’ somewhere besides Tunisia…as i think L4E suggested, maybe the Lamp Post is a possibility…survival for Locke in Tunisia seems like stretch even for this show…;)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++++++
    I am sticking with my old theory that you always go to Tunisia if you turn the wheel (see Char’s polar bear). And those guys Ben beat up were obviously Widmore lackies. So here’s my if/then equation: If Widmore = DHARMA and DHARMA = Lamp Post, then Widmore = Tunisia watcher.

  33. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316165"]I hope it is revealed how Jack & the other O6 knew that Jeremy Bentham was John Locke.[/quote]

    ****************************************

    didn’t Locke go to visit the O6? at least a few of them? he probably just told them he was using the Jeremy Bentham…unless i’m missing something, that doesn’t seem like much of a mystery…i definitely think they’ll show us the visits tho, which should be pretty cool…;)

  34. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316181"][quote comment="316165"]I hope it is revealed how Jack & the other O6 knew that Jeremy Bentham was John Locke.[/quote]

    ****************************************

    didn’t Locke go to visit the O6? at least a few of them? he probably just told them he was using the Jeremy Bentham…unless i’m missing something, that doesn’t seem like much of a mystery…i definitely think they’ll show us the visits tho, which should be pretty cool…;)[/quote]
    Agreed. They saw him as JB. Even Walt said somthing to Hugo about that.

  35. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316181"]didn’t Locke go to visit the O6? at least a few of them? he probably just told them he was using the Jeremy Bentham…unless i’m missing something, that doesn’t seem like much of a mystery…i definitely think they’ll show us the visits tho, which should be pretty cool…;)[/quote]

    Yes. We know he went to Jack and Kate. We know he went to Walt. Hurley didn’t seem surprised to hear that Jeremy Bentham went to visit Walt, nor did he ask, “Who the heck is that?” when Walt told him, so I suspect that he visited Hurley as well.

    : ) P

  36. PJSander says:

    Again we’re answering questions at the same time, Hammer! LOL

    : ) P

  37. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316173"][quote comment="316156"]************************************

    possible and probable…but it’s also just as likely that they were just two bedouins patrolling their patch of dirt at the wrong time…either way tho, Locke won’t have Ben’s passports, aliases, money or his nifty little night-stick-baton thing…that plus a broken leg and/or being completely crippled makes me think the writers will have him ‘appear’ somewhere besides Tunisia…as i think L4E suggested, maybe the Lamp Post is a possibility…survival for Locke in Tunisia seems like stretch even for this show…;)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++++++
    I am sticking with my old theory that you always go to Tunisia if you turn the wheel (see Char’s polar bear). And those guys Ben beat up were obviously Widmore lackies. So here’s my if/then equation: If Widmore = DHARMA and DHARMA = Lamp Post, then Widmore = Tunisia watcher.[/quote]

    ****************************

    i agree that they were probably Widmore employees but i don’t think it’s super obvious and here’s why…

    you are Widmore…SUPER rich and SUPER powerful…and there is an area of a country that you want to watch like a hawk…you could say it’s your life’s obsession, at least part of it…so what do you do? you have extremely well-trained and well-armed soldier/mercenary types patrolling around in expensive high-tech jeeps/trucks/dunebuggy’s using all kinds of high-tech gadgets (night vision goggles and the latest and greatest weaponry, etc..), right?

    no you say? you hire two idiots on horseback who could probably be bought off with a cheeseburger and a six pack of beer?? two guys who can barely speak english and are easily overpowered by one guy with a baton?

    sorry, it really doesn’t make sense that a dude like Widmore would roll like that…and if the writers are to blame then shame on them…;)

  38. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316188"]
    ****************************

    i agree that they were probably Widmore employees but i don’t think it’s super obvious and here’s why…

    you are Widmore…SUPER rich and SUPER powerful…and there is an area of a country that you want to watch like a hawk…you could say it’s your life’s obsession, at least part of it…so what do you do? you have extremely well-trained and well-armed soldier/mercenary types patrolling around in expensive high-tech jeeps/trucks/dunebuggy’s using all kinds of high-tech gadgets (night vision goggles and the latest and greatest weaponry, etc..), right?

    no you say? you hire two idiots on horseback who could probably be bought off with a cheeseburger and a six pack of beer?? two guys who can barely speak english and are easily overpowered by one guy with a baton?

    sorry, it really doesn’t make sense that a dude like Widmore would roll like that…and if the writers are to blame then shame on them…;)[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    I hear ya ESB. Since we don’t have anything of substance to talk about for a few more hours…….

    I mentioned in past seasons that Widmore operates like all classic evil empires. Hire halfwits to do the dirty work so the leader doesn’t end up in harm’s way. In real life, maybe the Tunisian desert is full of poor folks that wouldn’t have much loyalty, but on TV….they are loyal henchmen. In real life, a baton wouldn’t do the job, but on TV the protagonists can avoid machine fire…..just saying. So I remove your reason for it not being obvious and take the hints that the show gives us and I find it obvious. Doesn’t mean I am correct….JMO.

  39. ESB says:

    haha, yup…;)

    “Since we don’t have anything of substance to talk about for a few more hours…….”

    is exactly why i bring it up…at the same this blog is filled with people talking, arguing and complaining about the realism of this show all the time…thought i’d add my two cents, that’s all…;)

  40. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316194"] the realism of this show [/quote]
    Now that’s funny.:)

  41. LINS says:

    so excited for tonight!! i missed being on here last week, all the theories from last week’s post were great, looking foward to learning more about our friend locke tonight!!

  42. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316194"]haha, yup…;)

    “Since we don’t have anything of substance to talk about for a few more hours…….”

    is exactly why i bring it up…at the same this blog is filled with people talking, arguing and complaining about the realism of this show all the time…thought i’d add my two cents, that’s all…;)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Touche, ESB!!!

  43. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316198"][quote comment="316194"] the realism of this show [/quote]
    Now that’s funny.:)[/quote]

    **************************************

    i agree…i love that people here argue about the logic and science of time travel, but overlook stuff like Keamy and his group of highly trained soldiers not being able to hit Sawyer with even one bullet…

    personally, i don’t really care how ‘real’ any of it is…i LOVE this show…;)

  44. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316200"][quote comment="316194"]haha, yup…;)

    “Since we don’t have anything of substance to talk about for a few more hours…….”

    is exactly why i bring it up…at the same this blog is filled with people talking, arguing and complaining about the realism of this show all the time…thought i’d add my two cents, that’s all…;)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Touche, ESB!!![/quote]

    *************************

    haha, thank you sir…;)

  45. jaime says:

    [quote comment="316173"][quote comment="316156"]************************************

    possible and probable…but it’s also just as likely that they were just two bedouins patrolling their patch of dirt at the wrong time…either way tho, Locke won’t have Ben’s passports, aliases, money or his nifty little night-stick-baton thing…that plus a broken leg and/or being completely crippled makes me think the writers will have him ‘appear’ somewhere besides Tunisia…as i think L4E suggested, maybe the Lamp Post is a possibility…survival for Locke in Tunisia seems like stretch even for this show…;)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++++++
    I am sticking with my old theory that you always go to Tunisia if you turn the wheel (see Char’s polar bear). And those guys Ben beat up were obviously Widmore lackies. So here’s my if/then equation: If Widmore = DHARMA and DHARMA = Lamp Post, then Widmore = Tunisia watcher.[/quote]

    ****************************************************

    I agree 100% with ya Hammer about Tunisia. comment 4

  46. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316201"][quote comment="316198"][quote comment="316194"] the realism of this show [/quote]
    Now that’s funny.:)[/quote]

    **************************************

    i agree…i love that people here argue about the logic and science of time travel, but overlook stuff like Keamy and his group of highly trained soldiers not being able to hit Sawyer with even one bullet…

    personally, i don’t really care how ‘real’ any of it is…i LOVE this show…;)[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++++
    LMAO!!! You are so correct, but it won’t stop… :)

  47. Flyboy says:

    First time posting…. If I am repeating something that has already been discussed I apologize.

    No one thus far has pointed out that Ms. Hawking told them that the window will close in ‘36 HOURS’, yet the text when the scene opens says ‘46 HOURS EARLIER’. In other words the losties flashed/crashed on the island 10 hours after Ms. Hawking told them their window will close.

    I think this discrepancy along with the one that Daniel tested on the island with the rocket and the clock are important clues to a bigger picture that we are missing.

    Another time discrepancy is how long the losties spent on the island and how much time passed in the real world.

    I am going to try to see if their is any math similarities between these different events that can be gleaned.

    Could it be that there are multiple timelines and the people that are dead (Chrisitian Shepard, Charlie, Locke, etc.) are in fact dead but they can still travel and appear in times that they were alive before. In other words if someone died in 2001 like Christian Shepard for example, could he still appear alive to people in times between the date he was born and the date in 2001 when he died. When 815 crashed it could have landed on the island in a time that was pre 2001 hence Christian Shepard would still appear alive. However, when the island time reaches 2001 after the date that he died he would no longer appear alive. This may explain Jacob. Jacob could be the entity that uses proxies (dead bodies from a future time) to speak through. This may also explain what is happening with Locke and why Hurley could see Charlie. Charlie could have died post 2004 on the island (when he drowned) if the island was constantly moving through time hence back in the real world during 2004 Hurley could still see him. And so could other people due to the fact that the other guy at the psych ward also saw Charlie, not just Hurley.

    Or maybe I am way off…. what do you guys think?

    Also, like Charlotte not remembering that she was on the island prior to the moment where she died, could it be that Charlie programmed the Beach Boys song code for the looking glass jammer and just didn’t remember it prior to that moment. Could this type of thing be happening alot more on this show. Could this be part of the main theme of the show?

  48. Flyboy says:

    Another thing…. When Jack first appeared in the pilot episode he didn’t remember the crash but Kate did. This time Jack, Hurley, and Kate don’t remember the crash. Could it be that Jack didn’t remember the crash because he died in that crash but when the scene plays out on the island they have already time traveled back in time to a time prior to the crash. Could that mean that since Hurley and Kate also don’t remember the crash this time they really died during the flight 316 crash. They still appear alive to each other because they went back in time to the 70’s (guessing that by Jin’s darma clothes and the van) which is a time between their birth and their death so during that period they are still alive. When they reach the time that 316 crashed then they will no longer appear alive. Maybe through some sort of ‘universe course correction’ death that hawking was talking about.

    Maybe Desmond’s flashes of Charlie dying were not seeing the future so much as remembering the past?

  49. Willing Suspension of Disbelief……..make life much more pleasant, especially watching tv shows like LOST

  50. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316214"]
    No one thus far has pointed out that Ms. Hawking told them that the window will close in ‘36 HOURS’, yet the text when the scene opens says ‘46 HOURS EARLIER’. In other words the losties flashed/crashed on the island 10 hours after Ms. Hawking told them their window will close.
    [/quote]
    I think they had to be on the flight for sometime. When she said 36 hours I assumed that is when flight 316 left. That was their only window, be on flight 316, which takes off in 36 hours.

  51. Flyboy says:

    Here is another aspect of my theory…

    Let’s say you die in 2004 but then time travel to 2000. In 2000, your 2004 body could still appear alive and could interact with anyone that did not know you died in 2004. But people that knew you died in 2004 could not see or interact with your 2004 body in the year 2000. The people that knew you died in 2004 could only see and interact with your 2000 body in the year 2000. That also means that people in 2000 who didn’t know you died could possibly see both your 2000 body and your 2004 body.

    Hence if Charlie died post 2004 let’s say 2008 maybe for example then Hurley could still interact with 2004 Charlie but not post 2008 Charlie.

    If I am confusing you guys I would be glad to explain more, because it is clear to me…

  52. LostGrrl says:

    Scenes I’m looking forward to tonight:

    — Locke arriving off island (Tunisia or elsewhere) and figuring out what the hell to do first (with one eyebrow raised, of course)

    — JL’s meeting with Ben. Who comes up with the Bentham pseudonym? Who’s idea is it that JL must die in this way?

    — JL’s meetings with some of the O6 (Jack, Kate, Hurley). Why also Walt? Why not Sayid? Why not travel to see Sun?

    — JL meeting Eloise? Perhaps SHE’S the one telling him what to do? (An off-island Jacob.)

    Sounds like a lot for just one episode. Even with the extra 6 minutes. Could it be we are left with MORE questions?

  53. Flyboy says:

    My theory would also explain Locke’s legs miraculously healing and then constantly getting re-injured. If they crashed in time prior to the time when Locke’s legs were injured in the fall from the window, then his legs would be alright because it didn’t happen yet. Then the universe would find different ways to re-injure Locke’s legs through some sort of hawking ‘course correction’ event.

  54. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316231"]Scenes I’m looking forward to tonight:

    — Locke arriving off island (Tunisia or elsewhere) and figuring out what the hell to do first (with one eyebrow raised, of course)

    — JL’s meeting with Ben. Who comes up with the Bentham pseudonym? Who’s idea is it that JL must die in this way?

    — JL’s meetings with some of the O6 (Jack, Kate, Hurley). Why also Walt? Why not Sayid? Why not travel to see Sun?

    — JL meeting Eloise? Perhaps SHE’S the one telling him what to do? (An off-island Jacob.)

    Sounds like a lot for just one episode. Even with the extra 6 minutes. Could it be we are left with MORE questions?[/quote]

    haha, i think it’s pretty much guaranteed we’ll be left with more questions…;)

  55. RGS says:

    It appears most of you don’t watch the sneak peeks that this site provides, but a number of your questions are answered in the sneak peeks. The sneak peeks always reveal the first few minutes of the show. So some of your theories have actually already been revealed.

  56. RGS says:

    My suspension of belief is stronger with anything island related. Off island however, is where I hold the writer’s to a higher standard. That and consistency. I’m hoping that there is some consistency in the rhyme and reasons for the things that happen.

  57. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316200"][quote comment="316194"]haha, yup…;)

    “Since we don’t have anything of substance to talk about for a few more hours…….”

    is exactly why i bring it up…at the same this blog is filled with people talking, arguing and complaining about the realism of this show all the time…thought i’d add my two cents, that’s all…;)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Touche, ESB!!![/quote]

    *************************

    haha, thank you sir…;)
    [quote comment="316240"]It appears most of you don’t watch the sneak peeks that this site provides, but a number of your questions are answered in the sneak peeks. The sneak peeks always reveal the first few minutes of the show. So some of your theories have actually already been revealed.[/quote]

    i watch the previews for next weeks episode if it’s something they actually showed on tv after last weeks episode…but generally i don’t discuss previews on this blog and generally don’t check out too much sneak peak stuff on the internet…i (and i’m guessing a lot of other people) kinda like to be in the dark until show time, ya know…;)

  58. RanDeeNation says:

    [quote comment="316215"]Another thing…. When Jack first appeared in the pilot episode he didn’t remember the crash but Kate did.[/quote]
    —-
    How about this? Jack did jump off of the bridge and commit suicide (think about Locke) when we saw him standing there. Jack has been dead this whole time. He is in the coffin. His return to the island is the real story (think about purgatory). His fathers’ shoes, from his grand-dad, are what his mother wanted him to wear in the coffin. Those shoes are how Jack connects with his father in the after-life. The island is not an island. It is heaven (or hell), and the only way to determine which it is, is HOW you got there.

    That, or they ALL died when Oceanic 815 crashed. Now the task is to determine who goes where (hell or heaven).

  59. duke says:

    [quote comment="316156"][quote comment="316152"][quote comment="316100"][quote comment="316093"][quote comment="316092"]very curious to see where he ends up after turning the FDW and how he gets to LA from there…pretty damn excited about this episode…;)[/quote]
    *******************************************************

    My guess is Tunisia. The bear went there, Ben went there. He’ll get to LA via help from either Hawking’s, Ben’s, or Widmore’s people.

    For anyone recording tonight’s episode…I’ve heard that it will run over by 6 minutes.[/quote]

    *********************************

    haha, so he’s going to just appear in the middle of the desert, with no money or passports or weapons, and just hope that someone comes to help him or at least pick him up?? i’m sure your right but i am very curious how the writers do it…;)[/quote]
    If you remember when Ben showed up a couple of guys, they probably work for Widmore, were there. Ben beat them up. I predict that these are people who work for Widmore manning that area because Widmore knows that is where you go when you leave the island (possibly because Widmore ended up there when he left).[/quote]

    ************************************

    possible and probable…but it’s also just as likely that they were just two bedouins patrolling their patch of dirt at the wrong time…either way tho, Locke won’t have Ben’s passports, aliases, money or his nifty little night-stick-baton thing…that plus a broken leg and/or being completely crippled makes me think the writers will have him ‘appear’ somewhere besides Tunisia…as i think L4E suggested, maybe the Lamp Post is a possibility…survival for Locke in Tunisia seems like stretch even for this show…;)[/quote]

    It will be in Tunisia. If the guys that pick him up are Widmore’s don’t you think that his guys have resources to get John back to the US. Widmore is a man of wealth. He will definately have ways to get Locke back. Maybe this is how he gets the name Jeremy Bentham. It is provided to him by the guys who help him in Tunisia.

  60. duke says:

    [quote comment="316188"][quote comment="316173"][quote comment="316156"]************************************

    possible and probable…but it’s also just as likely that they were just two bedouins patrolling their patch of dirt at the wrong time…either way tho, Locke won’t have Ben’s passports, aliases, money or his nifty little night-stick-baton thing…that plus a broken leg and/or being completely crippled makes me think the writers will have him ‘appear’ somewhere besides Tunisia…as i think L4E suggested, maybe the Lamp Post is a possibility…survival for Locke in Tunisia seems like stretch even for this show…;)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++++++
    I am sticking with my old theory that you always go to Tunisia if you turn the wheel (see Char’s polar bear). And those guys Ben beat up were obviously Widmore lackies. So here’s my if/then equation: If Widmore = DHARMA and DHARMA = Lamp Post, then Widmore = Tunisia watcher.[/quote]

    ****************************

    i agree that they were probably Widmore employees but i don’t think it’s super obvious and here’s why…

    you are Widmore…SUPER rich and SUPER powerful…and there is an area of a country that you want to watch like a hawk…you could say it’s your life’s obsession, at least part of it…so what do you do? you have extremely well-trained and well-armed soldier/mercenary types patrolling around in expensive high-tech jeeps/trucks/dunebuggy’s using all kinds of high-tech gadgets (night vision goggles and the latest and greatest weaponry, etc..), right?

    no you say? you hire two idiots on horseback who could probably be bought off with a cheeseburger and a six pack of beer?? two guys who can barely speak english and are easily overpowered by one guy with a baton?

    sorry, it really doesn’t make sense that a dude like Widmore would roll like that…and if the writers are to blame then shame on them…;)[/quote]
    Wouldn’t you want to hire people who blend in with the natural environment and people. Saying they could be bought off, with a six-pack, is dismissing Widmore’s power and what he is capable of. Don’t underestimate Widmore and his intelligence. He is every bit the person that Ben is if not more sadistic (if that is possible).

  61. LostinSev says:

    I am thinking along the same lines as Flyboy is! I think a lot of the “healing” from the island is really only the fact that it hasn’t happened yet. Like Locke’s legs and Rose’s cancer. If Jack died in the Oceanic 815 flight, then how could he go back to be an O6?

    Flyboy, I think you have something here, but I am still somewhat confussed.

  62. duke says:

    hammer, another week and another chance to be wrong. look forward to this every week. I think you and I think alike.

  63. ESB says:

    Duke:

    While i do agree with you that Widmore would probably hire people that ‘blend’ in…i also think he’d take less chances and hire more capable people…i mean Ben did get the best of Keamy in the end but it was a much more difficult task then Ben had in disposing of two (in my opinion) rather poorly armed horsemen…but hey, it’s just an opinion and that’s the cool thing about blogging, you get to state your opinion…;)

    also, as i said earlier, i think you will probably end up being right, my only point was that i didn’t find it to be terribly realistic…and yes, i’ll add it to the list…;)

    All you all enjoy the show tonight…;)

    peace and Bad Robot!

  64. Flyboy says:

    [quote comment="316249"]I am thinking along the same lines as Flyboy is! I think a lot of the “healing” from the island is really only the fact that it hasn’t happened yet. Like Locke’s legs and Rose’s cancer. If Jack died in the Oceanic 815 flight, then how could he go back to be an O6?

    Flyboy, I think you have something here, but I am still somewhat confussed.[/quote]

    Well I think one of two things….

    1. The most obvious solution would be that I was wrong and Jack did not die on 815 and just has amnesia, then everything else in my theory stands or a more intriguing solution…..

    2. Could it be that Jack has a flash (backwards in time) just prior to the crash in a similar way that the o6 flash (backward in time) prior to the crash of flight 316 and does not remember the crash because he is now living in a timeline where that didn’t happen to him yet. He then has another flash (this time forward in time) and wakes up in the jungle at the same time as the 815 survivors with no recollection of the missing time yet. Key word is yet. Just like Charlotte didn’t remember the Faraday thing till later (or Faraday not remembering many things for that matter). The other 815 survivors remember the crash because they were there and didn’t time skip like Jack. This explains Jack not remembering the crash in a way that Jack does not die and therefor he can go back with the o6ers and still be rescued without being course corrected. This also opens up another story line for the missing time that Jack skipped that could be used to explain other things in the future.

  65. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316248"]He is every bit the person that Ben is if not more sadistic (if that is possible).[/quote]

    *********************************

    one last thing before the episode…and i’m not arguing with you just curious as to where you get this opinion…what proof do we have that Widmore is anywhere near as ‘sadistic or bad’ as Ben…obviously the guy is a jerk and he is obviously someone who does whatever he wants to get what he wants…but we don’t have a lot of visible given evidence of his bad deeds…we’ve just been told stuff…where as we’ve all seen Ben’s bad deeds, in living color…

    i would say the jury is still totally out on just how evil/bad Widmore is…

    again just an opinion…;)

  66. Rita says:

    [quote comment="316256"]Duke:

    While i do agree with you that Widmore would probably hire people that ‘blend’ in…i also think he’d take less chances and hire more capable people…i mean Ben did get the best of Keamy in the end but it was a much more difficult task then Ben had in disposing of two (in my opinion) rather poorly armed horsemen…but hey, it’s just an opinion and that’s the cool thing about blogging, you get to state your opinion…;)

    also, as i said earlier, i think you will probably end up being right, my only point was that i didn’t find it to be terribly realistic…and yes, i’ll add it to the list…;)

    All you all enjoy the show tonight…;)

    peace and Bad Robot![/quote]
    _____________________________________
    I hear what you are saying, and it makes some kind of sense, but Widmore doubtless knows that Ben (and possibly anyone coming through that “window”) can’t be killed. Therefore, it would be less necessary to worry about arming the henchmen and more necessary to just patrol the area and try to bring him back. One could also make the case that it just shows HOW powerful and experienced Ben is, that he could even overcome Widmore’s best mercs – sort of James Bond-esqe of him.

  67. Flyboy says:

    Could it also be (in reference to my previous post) that Jack time skipped during the 815 crash while the others didn’t because he had some sort of course correction purpose while the others did not. That could explain why only Jack, Hurley, and Kate appear in the 70’s after the flight 316 crash. Those 3 flashed back in time prior to the flight 316 crash while the others did not. We could just be seeing Jack, Hurley, and Kate’s timeline now while the other o6ers (and possibly some new people that were on the plane) are at a new crash scene in 2004. Maybe those 3 had a course correcting role this time while the others still did not.

  68. Rita says:

    [quote comment="316269"]Could it also be (in reference to my previous post) that Jack time skipped during the 815 crash while the others didn’t because he had some sort of course correction purpose while the others did not. That could explain why only Jack, Hurley, and Kate appear in the 70’s after the flight 316 crash. Those 3 flashed back in time prior to the flight 316 crash while the others did not. We could just be seeing Jack, Hurley, and Kate’s timeline now while the other o6ers (and possibly some new people that were on the plane) are at a new crash scene in 2004. Maybe those 3 had a course correcting role this time while the others still did not.[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    I’ve really been trying to get my mind around your theories flyboy, but I honestly must say that I HOPE the truth isn’t this complicated!

  69. Trixanna says:

    Should be another excellent episode! I am pretty excited… only another 75 minutes to go and hopefully we get some answers tonight.

  70. Flyboy says:

    I think the writer’s have said that their will be no time paradox in the sense that you could go back and kill your mom before you are born. They never said anything about multiple timelines existing simultaneously. My theory fits with this theme. In my theory lets say that you died in 2004. Your 2003 body could time travel to anytime that you were alive and interact with people but it could not time travel to a time before you were born or after you died (in 2004) and still interact with people. If you are time traveling like in this example your 2003 body time travels to 1976 then when you get there you don’t age till time catches up. This explains why Alpert doesn’t age.

  71. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316280"] In my theory lets say that you died in 2004. Your 2003 body could time travel to anytime that you were alive and interact with people but it could not time travel to a time before you were born or after you died (in 2004) and still interact with people. [/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    How do explain Locke traveling to and seeing Alpert before he was born?

  72. Flyboy says:

    If you time travel to a different timeline than you can not ultimately change anything that happened in a past or future timeline because it will get course corrected. During the timeline that you traveled to you may be able to influence events that are occuring in that timeline but those events can not change the future or the past. What ever you do in that timeline will be course corrected if it has the potential to effect past of future events.

  73. duke says:

    [quote comment="316256"]Duke:

    While i do agree with you that Widmore would probably hire people that ‘blend’ in…i also think he’d take less chances and hire more capable people…i mean Ben did get the best of Keamy in the end but it was a much more difficult task then Ben had in disposing of two (in my opinion) rather poorly armed horsemen…but hey, it’s just an opinion and that’s the cool thing about blogging, you get to state your opinion…;)

    also, as i said earlier, i think you will probably end up being right, my only point was that i didn’t find it to be terribly realistic…and yes, i’ll add it to the list…;)

    All you all enjoy the show tonight…;)

    peace and Bad Robot![/quote]
    Who knows who will be right. That’s not the point. It is fun just debating and predicting. As for Widmore being sadistic, I tend to think that he is like Ben in the sense that he will do what it takes to accomplish his goal. It seems that he just funds the missions (not getting his hands dirty) but he is in the real world which would make it more difficult to get away with things that Ben has been doing, with all the laws that we have. If he stays on the sideline but is funding the missions it makes him just has bad in my eyes. Remember we did see him snap the neck of his “army” buddy when that guy agreed to take Locke et al to their camp.

  74. duke says:

    [quote comment="316284"]If you time travel to a different timeline than you can not ultimately change anything that happened in a past or future timeline because it will get course corrected. During the timeline that you traveled to you may be able to influence events that are occuring in that timeline but those events can not change the future or the past. What ever you do in that timeline will be course corrected if it has the potential to effect past of future events.[/quote]
    Course correction equals change in my mind. So although you cannot CHANGE something you can do something that helps those events get course corrected. The problem is we do not know what events need to be course corrected (ie changed).

  75. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316292"] Remember we did see him snap the neck of his “army” buddy when that guy agreed to take Locke et al to their camp.[/quote]
    Yes, and isn’t he responsible for the killing of Ben’s “daughter”. At least that is what Ben thinks.

  76. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316240"]It appears most of you don’t watch the sneak peeks that this site provides, but a number of your questions are answered in the sneak peeks. The sneak peeks always reveal the first few minutes of the show. So some of your theories have actually already been revealed.[/quote]
    I never watch them.

  77. MyraBird says:

    I was looking back at Season 4, Episode 6 “The other Woman” on Lostpedia where Charlotte and Daniel de-activated the Tempest station with all the gas. When Jack and Kate arrive, Juliet informs Jack that the people on the Boat (from Widmore) “came here to wage war against Ben, and Ben’s going to win, and when he does, Jack, you don’t want to be anywhere near me”. Jack asks her why, and she replies that Ben thinks she is his “and he knows how I feel about you”.

    Same episode, interesting to point out the conversation Ben has with Locke about leadership and cautions Locke that “if he’s not careful, his people will organize an insurrection”

    Just trying to connect the dots with the Widmore vs Ben theme. Looking back, there are a lot of suggestions and themes about war. What else kind of weapons are there?

    Also – why does Ben think Juliet is his? Is she a proxy for Annie?

  78. lost4ever says:

    One theory dead, 316 crashed.

  79. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316201"]
    i agree…i love that people here argue about the logic and science of time travel, but overlook stuff like Keamy and his group of highly trained soldiers not being able to hit Sawyer with even one bullet…
    [/quote]

    Too true… but in the case of Sawyer, maybe the mercenaries never got him because he wasn’t SUPPOSED to die!

    : ) P

  80. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316319"]One theory dead, 316 crashed.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    Not so fast. Plane looked fully intact, as though it skid down a makeshift runway………maybe.

  81. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316322"][quote comment="316319"]One theory dead, 316 crashed.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    Not so fast. Plane looked fully intact, as though it skid down a makeshift runway………maybe.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Gee, why is Locke looking at the big island from the little island….where the runway was built. ;).

  82. Krista says:

    yep the desert and yep his leg hurts!

  83. Catwoman2424 says:

    I’m watching the current episode. The guy who took the gun and the girl questioning Locke, did they plan to be on the island? Something is not right with them. Also, how long has it been since the new plane “crashed” or whatever? And if it did crash, how did the Oceanic 6 end up in the water?

  84. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316322"][quote comment="316319"]One theory dead, 316 crashed.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    Not so fast. Plane looked fully intact, as though it skid down a makeshift runway………maybe.[/quote]
    ==========
    The plane was behind them on the beach.

  85. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316327"][quote comment="316322"][quote comment="316319"]One theory dead, 316 crashed.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    Not so fast. Plane looked fully intact, as though it skid down a makeshift runway………maybe.[/quote]
    ==========
    The plane was behind them on the beach.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Yep, on the small island where the makeshift runway was built.

  86. Tasha says:

    I KNEW IT!

  87. michael says:

    all good stuff so far!

  88. LostGrrl says:

    HOLY CRAP! Widmore with some answers!! So cool!!

    But are Ben and he working on the same side now — since both ware trying to get them all back on the island?

  89. Rita says:

    Wow! So many answers! Trying to process…

  90. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316322"]
    Not so fast. Plane looked fully intact, as though it skid down a makeshift runway………maybe.[/quote]
    Maybe Sully was in the cockpit with Lapidus.:)

  91. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316331"]HOLY CRAP! Widmore with some answers!! So cool!!

    But are Ben and he working on the same side now — since both ware trying to get them all back on the island?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++++
    First thought is that they are to stop the purge so that Widmore’s side will win this time? Unless their is a third party coming that we know nothing about.

  92. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316333"][quote comment="316322"]
    Not so fast. Plane looked fully intact, as though it skid down a makeshift runway………maybe.[/quote]
    Maybe Sully was in the cockpit with Lapidus.:)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    LMAO.

  93. lost4ever says:

    Helen died on 4-8-06.

  94. Hammer says:

    Small victories. :)

    Turning wheel = Tunisia, always.

    Widmore = Tunisia watcher.

    Jack, Kate, Hugo = flashed out of plane.

    Plane ‘landed’ on small island on/near runway.

    Skippers went into ‘future’ and where chased by downrigger folks before flashing to past again.

  95. RGS says:

    Lol, good ole innocent Ben!

  96. lost4ever says:

    Another theory as dead as Locke, no medusa spider.

  97. michael says:

    Love it when i get something right

  98. Hammer says:

    Before you all get excited. I think John killing himself would ban him from being leader. Ben had to kill him….

  99. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="316352"]Before you all get excited. I think John killing himself would ban him from being leader. Ben had to kill him….[/quote]

    Right. More on biblical terms…he couldn’t kill himself. It is a SIN! So Ben did it for him. Why else would he have done it…he would have just let him do it himself.

  100. lost4ever says:

    So they did vanish into thin air on the plane in front of the other passengers as suggested by many, and Ben did stay in the current time.

  101. lost4ever says:

    Was it Sun that Lapidus took oof with in the third outrigger? or did she travel to the past with Jack, Hurley and Kate?

  102. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316357"]Was it Sun that Lapidus took oof with in the third outrigger? or did she travel to the past with Jack, Hurley and Kate?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    For logic sake….please….I think that Sun and Sayid are in the same time as Jack. I think Frank took off with someone else.

  103. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316357"]Was it Sun that Lapidus took oof with in the third outrigger? or did she travel to the past with Jack, Hurley and Kate?[/quote]

    That would make sense since it would allow for a big reunion between Sun and Jin in the season finale! *g*

    Another good episode with lots of answers, and yes, still more questions. To me, it looked like Caesar (and MAYBE the ‘Marshal’ didn’t catch her name) were looking for something with INTENT, not just being nosey about where they were. Since they didn’t know Ben, I thought maybe they were Widmore’s people, if so, they ought to know who Locke was.

    : ) P

  104. LostGrrl says:

    First off… holy crap, what a good, satisfying ep.

    Okay, next…

    1. Widmore is watching after the O6 to keep them safe, in an effort to get them back on the island, to ensure its survival.

    2. Ben is watching over the O6 to keep them safe, in an effort to get them back to the island.

    3. Widmore assigns Abbadon to Locke to help him, and directs John to seek out Eloise.

    4. Ben kills Abbadon to keep John safe.

    5. Ben kills Locke when told he’s going to see Eloise.

    6. Eventually, Ben will find Eloise to help get the O6 back to the island.

    Ben apparently doesn’t know Alpert’s theory that to get the O6 back, John must die, or else he would have let him kill himself. But perhaps the island wouldn’t have let John kill himself and that is why Ben had to do it?

    My mind is still reeling. Looking forward to your thoughts.

  105. RGS says:

    I think Ben will get an unlocked memory, of something that will happen with the left behinders and the Ajira flashers. That’s why he will try to kill those who flash on the future outrigger…he’ll know Locke is on that outrigger.

    He’ll also try to kill the Ajira flashers. Trying to change up the history so that he can be the new leader of these new others (Ajira survivors). Which means I also think he will try to kill Alpert and those other folks too. He’s just a killing machine.

  106. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316359"]
    For logic sake….please….I think that Sun and Sayid are in the same time as Jack. I think Frank took off with someone else.[/quote]

    I agree with you that logically, the O6 would have all jumped to the same time.

    Big reveal, though, was the fact that Widmore remembered something in “photoshopped” history… or at least he pretended he did.

    : ) P

  107. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316362"]I think Ben will get an unlocked memory, of something that will happen with the left behinders and the Ajira flashers. That’s why he will try to kill those who flash on the future outrigger…he’ll know Locke is on that outrigger.

    He’ll also try to kill the Ajira flashers. Trying to change up the history so that he can be the new leader of these new others (Ajira survivors). Which means I also think he will try to kill Alpert and those other folks too. He’s just a killing machine.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    Sure seems that he’s power hungry…no?

  108. michael says:

    So these people are gonna try to hurt Locke.

  109. Hammer says:

    I just can’t figure out who in the hell is on whose side. Ben working with Hawking, Widmore working with Hawking. Ben takes Locke back, Widmore wants Locke back….WTF? There’s going to be a war and the wrong side wins if they don’t back, but the other side is taking them back.

    Third party coming???

  110. Vaughn K says:

    since widmore said that last time he saw locke was when he walked into their camp and now he looks to be the same exact age…which is obviously true since it just happened for locke; this made me think that Alpert isnt immortal and actually is aging, he just time travels to a lot of different periods, so the next time someone sees him, they think that he has not aged at all but really for him it has only been a couple days just like locke.

  111. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316367"]I just can’t figure out who in the hell is on whose side. Ben working with Hawking, Widmore working with Hawking. Ben takes Locke back, Widmore wants Locke back….WTF? There’s going to be a war and the wrong side wins if they don’t back, but the other side is taking them back.

    Third party coming???[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Maybe Ben and Widmore are on the same side, just fighting over who is going to lead them to protect the island in the big war???

  112. Vaughn K says:

    alpert does leave at long periods of time and then just appears again, he was prob off in a different time course correcting

  113. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316359"][quote comment="316357"]Was it Sun that Lapidus took oof with in the third outrigger? or did she travel to the past with Jack, Hurley and Kate?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    For logic sake….please….I think that Sun and Sayid are in the same time as Jack. I think Frank took off with someone else.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Wow a bit snarky? For logic’s sake….the plane didn’t land in Guam either.

  114. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316368"]since widmore said that last time he saw locke was when he walked into their camp and now he looks to be the same exact age…which is obviously true since it just happened for locke; this made me think that Alpert isnt immortal and actually is aging, he just time travels to a lot of different periods, so the next time someone sees him, they think that he has not aged at all but really for him it has only been a couple days just like locke.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    That would explain why he doesn’t have birthdays anymore….his job is to keep traveling to protect the island.

  115. Flyboy says:

    [quote comment="316283"][quote comment="316280"] In my theory lets say that you died in 2004. Your 2003 body could time travel to anytime that you were alive and interact with people but it could not time travel to a time before you were born or after you died (in 2004) and still interact with people. [/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    How do explain Locke traveling to and seeing Alpert before he was born?[/quote]

    Maybe you can travel to any time but when you try to do things that will change a past or future event than after you do what you do it will be course corrected. For example Locke sends Alpert to visit him after he is born. When Alpert visits Locke if Locke passes Alpert’s test then he would have taken Locke to the island. Locke fails and Alpert leaves frustrated because that had to happen (through a course correction). Otherwise Locke would have went with Alpert to the island when he was a kid and that would have changed the future which can’t happen. If Locke had gone to the island it would have changed all the events that occurred to Locke prior to him getting to the island on flight 815. Since all those events (boxman employee, thrown out of the window, paralyzed in wheelchair, etc.) occurred on a certain timeline they can not be changed. I do not see any paradox created by Locke telling Alpert to go find him or Alpert actually taking that trip.

  116. katesFriend says:

    I feel like this could be a never ending war to get the island on the “right” track…however the “right” track depends on from whose perspective it is viewed

    I do think the war the O6 are supposed to go back and fight is the purge — seems like this is why they are in the 70s

    But why stop the purge? And how is that related to Widmore’s exhile? And when Widmore says, “the others? those are my people,” to which others is he referring? Dharma or those who institute the purge?

    It seems to me that Widmore and Alpert were there before Ben, right? So why recruit Ben? and then how did Ben gain enough power to exhile Widmore? And is Alpert cool with that?

    My head is spinning!

  117. ilovebenlinusxxxx says:

    wow. did anyone notice that the guy that was driving lock around was the same guy on that other weird show about science and time travl. ben linus is the best acter on the tele.

  118. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316371"][quote comment="316359"][quote comment="316357"]Was it Sun that Lapidus took oof with in the third outrigger? or did she travel to the past with Jack, Hurley and Kate?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    For logic sake….please….I think that Sun and Sayid are in the same time as Jack. I think Frank took off with someone else.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Wow a bit snarky? For logic’s sake….the plane didn’t land in Guam either.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++++++
    I wasn’t being snarky….I was begging the writers for the logic. Not saying please to you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

  119. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316371"]…the plane didn’t land in Guam either.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    I think that is because the plane was to go to the vile vortex near Guam to get the plane back on the island.

  120. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316377"]wow. did anyone notice that the guy that was driving lock around was the same guy on that other weird show about science and time travl. ben linus is the best acter on the tele.[/quote]
    Your on this blog now? How is the “foddering” going these days?

  121. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316379"][quote comment="316371"][quote comment="316359"][quote comment="316357"]Was it Sun that Lapidus took oof with in the third outrigger? or did she travel to the past with Jack, Hurley and Kate?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    For logic sake….please….I think that Sun and Sayid are in the same time as Jack. I think Frank took off with someone else.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Wow a bit snarky? For logic’s sake….the plane didn’t land in Guam either.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++++++
    I wasn’t being snarky….I was begging the writers for the logic. Not saying please to you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.[/quote]
    =============
    Gotcha Hammer. On both points.:)

  122. Vaughn K says:

    was anyone else really suprised that abbadon was killed cause they have shown him periodically throughout every season of this show and then when they finally introduce him and you think he will finally take a big roll in the show he gets wasted lol

  123. Hammer says:

    I noticed one thing that’s very consisent. Ben keeps getting those a$$ whoopins. Kharma….but kicked before he gets on the plane….busted up on the landing….he always pays for his actions. :)

  124. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316383"]was anyone else really suprised that abbadon was killed cause they have shown him periodically throughout every season of this show and then when they finally introduce him and you think he will finally take a big roll in the show he gets wasted lol[/quote]

    Nah, not surprised. He has a more prominent role on another JJ Abrams show, Fringe. He had to come back, to tie up loose ends, but I didn’t expect him to be big in LOST because of this other gig.

    : ) P

  125. Skweez says:

    [quote comment="316352"]Before you all get excited. I think John killing himself would ban him from being leader. Ben had to kill him….[/quote]

    ***********************

    I think it’s just the opposite. Ben continues to “do” the things that Locke is supposed to do. I think Ben wants to get rid of Locke so that he can continue being the leader of the Others. Also, for the life of me I can’t seem to understand why Locke contiues to listen and trust Ben. He was just told by Christian that Ben wasn’t supposed to turn the wheel. What is wrong with that dude!

  126. michael says:

    [quote comment="316383"]was anyone else really suprised that abbadon was killed cause they have shown him periodically throughout every season of this show and then when they finally introduce him and you think he will finally take a big roll in the show he gets wasted lol[/quote]

    Hes on that othere show onfox now

  127. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316361"]

    4. Ben kills Abbadon to keep John safe.

    5. Ben kills Locke when told he’s going to see Eloise.
    [/quote]
    4. I wonder if ww will ever see that favor Abbadon was referring to?

    5. Yes. It appears that Ben didn’t know everything about the Lamp Post and Eloise Hawking, at least on the surface. Tie that into Locke’s refusal to contact Jin, and bye-bye John.

  128. Vaughn K says:

    [quote comment="316386"][quote comment="316383"]was anyone else really suprised that abbadon was killed cause they have shown him periodically throughout every season of this show and then when they finally introduce him and you think he will finally take a big roll in the show he gets wasted lol[/quote]

    Nah, not surprised. He has a more prominent role on another JJ Abrams show, Fringe. He had to come back, to tie up loose ends, but I didn’t expect him to be big in LOST because of this other gig.

    : ) P[/quote]

    o lol i clearly missed that showed so that ties all of that up for me

    and is response to you skweez i thought it was weird too but than when you think about both people cannot be trusted and if you were in that position you wouldnt know who to believe when each one is saying that the other one is evil but if i was going to believe anyone it would be christian/jacob over anyone so you think locke would believe him; but also ben showed up at a time when locke was about to kill himself and needed reassurance that he was not a failure so he would listen to anyone.

  129. NISH says:

    Guys, this episode sucks. They shouldn’t have dedicated a whole episode to show the life and death of Locke, and things shown in this one were very confusing, unecessary.

    You know, “Lost” story line has got a feature of making viewers to think, connect the happening outcomes with the past episodes. But today’s episode was lacking all this.

    Put your comments, if am wrong in my take from today’s part.

  130. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316383"]was anyone else really suprised that abbadon was killed cause they have shown him periodically throughout every season of this show and then when they finally introduce him and you think he will finally take a big roll in the show he gets wasted lol[/quote]
    He actually first appeared in S4E1.

  131. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316387"][quote comment="316352"]Before you all get excited. I think John killing himself would ban him from being leader. Ben had to kill him….[/quote]

    ***********************

    I think it’s just the opposite. Ben continues to “do” the things that Locke is supposed to do. I think Ben wants to get rid of Locke so that he can continue being the leader of the Others. Also, for the life of me I can’t seem to understand why Locke contiues to listen and trust Ben. He was just told by Christian that Ben wasn’t supposed to turn the wheel. What is wrong with that dude![/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    Well then, we are missing the part when Ben gets his hand slapped for being bad. Because at some point, he decided to bring Locke back. If he didn’t want Locke back on the island because he wants Locke out of the picture, why did he MAKE SURE he got back on?

  132. Vaughn K says:

    [quote comment="316394"][quote comment="316383"]was anyone else really suprised that abbadon was killed cause they have shown him periodically throughout every season of this show and then when they finally introduce him and you think he will finally take a big roll in the show he gets wasted lol[/quote]
    He actually first appeared in S4E1.[/quote]

    really, i could sware that we have seen him much before than but maybe u are right now that i think about it

  133. michael says:

    [quote comment="316387"][quote comment="316352"]Before you all get excited. I think John killing himself would ban him from being leader. Ben had to kill him….[/quote]

    ***********************

    I think it’s just the opposite. Ben continues to “do” the things that Locke is supposed to do. I think Ben wants to get rid of Locke so that he can continue being the leader of the Others. Also, for the life of me I can’t seem to understand why Locke contiues to listen and trust Ben. He was just told by Christian that Ben wasn’t supposed to turn the wheel. What is wrong with that dude![/quote]
    I kinda get that. He tells locke all of this stuff to get him to do what he can’t. Then when locke tell him that he is going to meet the lady to gt back on the island he no longer needs him

  134. LostGrrl says:

    [quote comment="316393"]Guys, this episode sucks.[/quote]

    Guess that’s why the invented chocolate and vanilla. I thought it was one of the best eps. Finally gave us some answers. And interesting ones, as well.

  135. RGS says:

    Widmore and Ben are NOT working together. When Locke tells Ben about Hawking, he realizes that he has to kill Locke, because he’s probably already been there to manipulate her.

    Skweez I think it’s because Locke is so unsure of what he has to do and Ben is such a master manipulator, that he continues to listen to Ben.

  136. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316393"]Guys, this episode sucks. They shouldn’t have dedicated a whole episode to show the life and death of Locke, and things shown in this one were very confusing, unecessary.

    You know, “Lost” story line has got a feature of making viewers to think, connect the happening outcomes with the past episodes. But today’s episode was lacking all this.

    Put your comments, if am wrong in my take from today’s part.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    High expectations because the show is awesome, but some episodes will not have the WOW factor….it’s an unrealistic expectation on our part.

    Def. not spectacular this week. But I liked it for info sake. It gets the story moved along. We are now past the whole O6, JB thing and now they can tell us why all this happened.

  137. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316387"][quote comment="316352"]Before you all get excited. I think John killing himself would ban him from being leader. Ben had to kill him….[/quote]

    ***********************

    I think it’s just the opposite. Ben continues to “do” the things that Locke is supposed to do. I think Ben wants to get rid of Locke so that he can continue being the leader of the Others. Also, for the life of me I can’t seem to understand why Locke contiues to listen and trust Ben. He was just told by Christian that Ben wasn’t supposed to turn the wheel. What is wrong with that dude![/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    I am confused on that whole issue. Ben did sound confident after killing him. I think he said “I will surely miss you”, which sounded definite. But then why would he take him back to the island? We know he can’t kill him there. He tried that already.

  138. RGS says:

    [quote comment="316396"]
    Well then, we are missing the part when Ben gets his hand slapped for being bad. Because at some point, he decided to bring Locke back. If he didn’t want Locke back on the island because he wants Locke out of the picture, why did he MAKE SURE he got back on?[/quote]

    He makes sure Locke gets back on because Hawkings told him that they have to recreate everything as close as possible. He can’t get back to the island w/o Locke.

  139. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316401"]
    Skweez I think it’s because Locke is so unsure of what he has to do and Ben is such a master manipulator, that he continues to listen to Ben.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Yeah, if only Jacob/Christian/Horace/Smokey would just give Locke the whole story……….LOL.

  140. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316401"]Widmore and Ben are NOT working together. When Locke tells Ben about Hawking, he realizes that he has to kill Locke, because he’s probably already been there to manipulate her.
    [/quote]
    They are definitely NOT working together. I just hope they show us, eventually, how Ben got Widmore to turn the FDW.

  141. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316404"][quote comment="316396"]
    Well then, we are missing the part when Ben gets his hand slapped for being bad. Because at some point, he decided to bring Locke back. If he didn’t want Locke back on the island because he wants Locke out of the picture, why did he MAKE SURE he got back on?[/quote]

    He makes sure Locke gets back on because Hawkings told him that they have to recreate everything as close as possible. He can’t get back to the island w/o Locke.[/quote]
    +++++++++
    Good point, but I would think that Ben would know how it all works and that it would bring him back to life.

  142. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316409"][quote comment="316401"]Widmore and Ben are NOT working together. When Locke tells Ben about Hawking, he realizes that he has to kill Locke, because he’s probably already been there to manipulate her.
    [/quote]
    They are definitely NOT working together. I just hope they show us, eventually, how Ben got Widmore to turn the FDW.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    LOL, I can see it now…

    Ben: Dude, smoke this…then turn that wheel.

    Charles: Wow man…the colors…I can taste purple…..what a trip man….I’m in the desert…Ben?…Ben?

  143. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316409"]
    They are definitely NOT working together. I just hope they show us, eventually, how Ben got Widmore to turn the FDW.[/quote]

    Right. That was one of many things confirmed in this episode: Widmore was exiled from the island at some point – unless Widmore was lying. Things would be so much easier to keep straight and understand if we could RELY on what one character says to another as being truthful!

    But here is another question, who WAS the woman that “the pilot” took off with? And… was “the pilot” really Lapidus? There would have been a co-pilot on the plane, right? Maybe Lapidus time jumped with the O5? Maybe the co-pilot was a Widmore plant?

    : ) P

  144. Skweez says:

    [quote comment="316396"][quote comment="316387"][quote comment="316352"]Before you all get excited. I think John killing himself would ban him from being leader. Ben had to kill him….[/quote]

    ***********************

    I think it’s just the opposite. Ben continues to “do” the things that Locke is supposed to do. I think Ben wants to get rid of Locke so that he can continue being the leader of the Others. Also, for the life of me I can’t seem to understand why Locke contiues to listen and trust Ben. He was just told by Christian that Ben wasn’t supposed to turn the wheel. What is wrong with that dude![/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    Well then, we are missing the part when Ben gets his hand slapped for being bad. Because at some point, he decided to bring Locke back. If he didn’t want Locke back on the island because he wants Locke out of the picture, why did he MAKE SURE he got back on?[/quote]

    *****************************

    Ben knows that in order to get back to the island, he has to follow Ms. Hawkings rules, which include Locke going back. But he also knows that if you disobey Jacob, you fall out of favor with him. I think Ben is trying to prove to Jacob that he’s still the chosen one. Or at the very least, show Alpert that he can’t be “ousted”. I think he knows how bad Alpert wants Locke to be the leader.

  145. RGS says:

    [quote comment="316410"]Good point, but I would think that Ben would know how it all works and that it would bring him back to life.[/quote]

    You’re giving Ben too much credit. While he does have a great deal of knowledge about the island, he does not know everything. He was generally surprised when he saw Locke, as he thought Locke would still be on the island.

    I’m curious as to what would make you think Ben would believe dead people could be reincarnated?

  146. Skweez says:

    So, was the sole point of the Locke-Walt meet to inform us that the folks on the island are going to try and kill Locke? Could there be more to this meeting?

  147. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316413"]
    Right. That was one of many things confirmed in this episode: Widmore was exiled from the island at some point – unless Widmore was lying. Things would be so much easier to keep straight and understand if we could RELY on what one character says to another as being truthful!

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    They def. WERE NOT working together before…and will not work later….but they ALL had the same goal in the middle….get them all back to the island…..no?

  148. RGS says:

    [quote comment="316414"]
    Ben knows that in order to get back to the island, he has to follow Ms. Hawkings rules, which include Locke going back. But he also knows that if you disobey Jacob, you fall out of favor with him. I think Ben is trying to prove to Jacob that he’s still the chosen one. Or at the very least, show Alpert that he can’t be “ousted”. I think he knows how bad Alpert wants Locke to be the leader.[/quote]

    I don’t think Jacob would reconcile with Ben. Ben has done something to make Jacob a captive in that cabin. That’s why Locke examined that dust that was around the cabin, I think that has something to do with Jacob’s restriction. Also Jacob did ask Locke to “Help me!” Then Ben made his first attempt to murder Locke.

  149. RGS says:

    [quote comment="316417"]So, was the sole point of the Locke-Walt meet to inform us that the folks on the island are going to try and kill Locke? Could there be more to this meeting?[/quote]

    I agree, Ben probably manipulates the Ajira survivors into believing that Locke is an “Other.” He’ll prove that he wasn’t on the plane, and Ceasar already suspects something’s fishy with him. Ben will probably kill a random passenger and then blame it on Locke, who will have a weak alibi at the time.

  150. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316413"]

    But here is another question, who WAS the woman that “the pilot” took off with? And… was “the pilot” really Lapidus? There would have been a co-pilot on the plane, right? Maybe Lapidus time jumped with the O5? Maybe the co-pilot was a Widmore plant?

    : ) P[/quote]
    The co-pilot had to have been Sully to land the plane like that.:)

    Not really sure if Lapidus jumped or not. As for the woman the pilot took of with, wouldn’t it be wierd if it was Cindy?

  151. Skweez says:

    Locke is one big SAP! Here’s a guy who spent 3 months on the island, knows more than any of the ne “losties” and he’s already treating Ceasar like he’s in charge. If he’s supposed to be this destined leader, why in the heck hasn’t he strapped on some boots, got an ole trusty knife and started making his way back to the big island?!

  152. DharmaGreg says:

    lost4ever wrote:
    Vaughn K wrote:
    was anyone else really suprised that abbadon was killed cause they have shown him periodically throughout every season of this show and then when they finally introduce him and you think he will finally take a big roll in the show he gets wasted lol
    He actually first appeared in S4E1.
    really, i could sware that we have seen him much before than but maybe u are right now that i think about it

    Really? Pretty sure Abbodon pops up in season 3. Man From Tallahassee?

  153. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316421"][quote comment="316417"]So, was the sole point of the Locke-Walt meet to inform us that the folks on the island are going to try and kill Locke? Could there be more to this meeting?[/quote]

    I agree, Ben probably manipulates the Ajira survivors into believing that Locke is an “Other.” He’ll prove that he wasn’t on the plane, and Ceasar already suspects something’s fishy with him. Ben will probably kill a random passenger and then blame it on Locke, who will have a weak alibi at the time.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    I like where you are going with this but I don’t understand why Locke would stick around their camp for too long. Shouldn’t he be off finding Richard and “his people”?

    I am really confused on the whole Walt story. They ALL have to return except for him?

  154. Skweez says:

    [quote comment="316419"][quote comment="316414"]
    Ben knows that in order to get back to the island, he has to follow Ms. Hawkings rules, which include Locke going back. But he also knows that if you disobey Jacob, you fall out of favor with him. I think Ben is trying to prove to Jacob that he’s still the chosen one. Or at the very least, show Alpert that he can’t be “ousted”. I think he knows how bad Alpert wants Locke to be the leader.[/quote]

    I don’t think Jacob would reconcile with Ben. Ben has done something to make Jacob a captive in that cabin. That’s why Locke examined that dust that was around the cabin, I think that has something to do with Jacob’s restriction. Also Jacob did ask Locke to “Help me!” Then Ben made his first attempt to murder Locke.[/quote]

    ************************

    Good point. If Ben has been able to keep Jacob captive some kind of way, maybe Jacob is a non issue. Ben just wants to do things his way. He’s a selfish, sociapathic, killer. I don’t like Ben, I don’t like Locke and I wish someone would off Hurley! Whew! It felt good to get that out!

  155. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316424"]

    Really? Pretty sure Abbodon pops up in season 3. Man From Tallahassee?[/quote]

    Fiarly certain he didn’t. The actor, Lance Reddick, is not credited for appearing in that episode. Here is his credits. He is one of my favorites, ever since OZ. He was amazing in THE WIRE also. He is now on my next favorite show FRINGE.

    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0714698/

    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0714698/

  156. TheWhiteHorse says:

    I am really confused on the whole Walt story. They ALL have to return except for him?[/quote]

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Me too. And what about Aaron? Wasn’t he part of the O6? They ALL have to return except for him as well.

    By the way, I also agree that the actor who plays Ben Linus deserves an Emmy. He’s absolutely fantastic. But poor, poor Walt…apparently he lost his ability to act over the years.

  157. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316430"]I am really confused on the whole Walt story. They ALL have to return except for him?[/quote]

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Me too. And what about Aaron? Wasn’t he part of the O6? They ALL have to return except for him as well.

    By the way, I also agree that the actor who plays Ben Linus deserves an Emmy. He’s absolutely fantastic. But poor, poor Walt…apparently he lost his ability to act over the years.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    I think some people are thinking that Aaron, Walt, et al don’t have to come back because they haven’t yet. IMO, their window hasn’t expired or even started yet. Eventually, they will all have to go back.

  158. Hammer says:

    For all of my adoring fans waiting for my bedtime for Bonzo thought…..ha….I almost go that out without laughing…..I’m an idiot…anyway:

    The Life mag had this at the top: Color Pictures of Hydrogen Test
    Dave Beck, former boss of goons emerges as labor’s new strong man.

    Then as he flips through there is a picture of Creature from the black lagoon carrying a woman.

    Then a Hanes underwear ad.

    The paper he was looking at had circles with lines running between them….some lines said Real Time, some said Space Time and some said Imaginary Time. There was also an Event A and and Event B referenced.

  159. TheWhiteHorse says:

    Also, one other thing, I thought that once you turned the FDW you could never return to the island. So how did Locke and Ben end up back there?

  160. DocH says:

    [quote comment="316385"]I noticed one thing that’s very consisent. Ben keeps getting those a$$ whoopins. Kharma….butt kicked before he gets on the plane….busted up on the landing….he always pays for his actions. :)[/quote]
    Is he busted-up? Or just playing possum so he gets to hang-out in a facility that he can make his next move? From what I’ve heard – the man always has a plan. Not too hard to fake injury, when you already look like you are injured.

  161. duke says:

    [quote comment="316327"][quote comment="316322"][quote comment="316319"]One theory dead, 316 crashed.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    Not so fast. Plane looked fully intact, as though it skid down a makeshift runway………maybe.[/quote]
    ==========
    The plane was behind them on the beach.[/quo[quote comment="316333"][quote comment="316322"]
    Not so fast. Plane looked fully intact, as though it skid down a makeshift runway………maybe.[/quote]
    Maybe Sully was in the cockpit with Lapidus.:)[/quote]

    There was no runway. The plane looked to be just off the beach which is next to the water. The “runway” that Sawyer and Kate were working on didn’t appear to be near the beach. They also had no time to finish it. Juliet was sarcastic when she said it. The same way she was sarcastic when she said something about it being very aliens when she was walking through the jungle with Sawyer.

  162. duke says:

    [quote comment="316346"]Small victories. :)

    Turning wheel = Tunisia, always.

    Widmore = Tunisia watcher.

    Jack, Kate, Hugo = flashed out of plane.

    Plane ‘landed’ on small island on/near runway.

    Skippers went into ‘future’ and where chased by downrigger folks before flashing to past again.[/quote]
    Nice calls hammer but I do not think you were right about the runway. See comment 161 for my take.

  163. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316437"][quote comment="316327"][quote comment="316322"][quote comment="316319"]One theory dead, 316 crashed.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    Not so fast. Plane looked fully intact, as though it skid down a makeshift runway………maybe.[/quote]
    ==========
    The plane was behind them on the beach.[/quo[quote comment="316333"][quote comment="316322"]
    Not so fast. Plane looked fully intact, as though it skid down a makeshift runway………maybe.[/quote]
    Maybe Sully was in the cockpit with Lapidus.:)[/quote]

    There was no runway. The plane looked to be just off the beach which is next to the water. The “runway” that Sawyer and Kate were working on didn’t appear to be near the beach. They also had no time to finish it. Juliet was sarcastic when she said it. The same way she was sarcastic when she said something about it being very aliens when she was walking through the jungle with Sawyer.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    When I rewatched the scene, they are walking down….what looks like to me….the unfinished runway just to the left of the plane….there is no doubt in my mind that is the runway they were trying to build.

  164. duke says:

    [quote comment="316385"]I noticed one thing that’s very consisent. Ben keeps getting those a$$ whoopins. Kharma….but kicked before he gets on the plane….busted up on the landing….he always pays for his actions. :)[/quote]
    Could they have just thought he was injured in the crash because he already had injuries.

  165. DharmaGreg says:

    [quote comment="316428"][quote comment="316424"]

    Really? Pretty sure Abbodon pops up in season 3. Man From Tallahassee?[/quote]

    Fiarly certain he didn’t. The actor, Lance Reddick, is not credited for appearing in that episode. Here is his credits. He is one of my favorites, ever since OZ. He was amazing in THE WIRE also. He is now on my next favorite show FRINGE.

    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0714698/

    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0714698/%5B/quote%5D

    You’re right. I’m watching threee seasons at a time right now to make the time traveling even more confusing. Oh shit my nose is bleeding…

  166. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316437"]

    There was no runway. The plane looked to be just off the beach which is next to the water. The “runway” that Sawyer and Kate were working on didn’t appear to be near the beach. They also had no time to finish it. Juliet was sarcastic when she said it. The same way she was sarcastic when she said something about it being very aliens when she was walking through the jungle with Sawyer.[/quote]
    Is alien intervention, in some form, so far-fetched though? True they were working away from the beach but maybe that is where the material was. If I remember correctly, they were just breaking up the rock and separating it, not actually laying a foundation there. Technically we do not know exactly how long Richard and “the others” have been on the island working on it. They did not appear to skip with our LOSTies.

  167. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316442"]
    You’re right. I’m watching threee seasons at a time right now to make the time traveling even more confusing. Oh shit my nose is bleeding…[/quote]
    You need a CONSTANT.:)

  168. duke says:

    [quote comment="316391"][quote comment="316361"]

    4. Ben kills Abbadon to keep John safe.

    5. Ben kills Locke when told he’s going to see Eloise.
    [/quote]
    4. I wonder if ww will ever see that favor Abbadon was referring to?

    5. Yes. It appears that Ben didn’t know everything about the Lamp Post and Eloise Hawking, at least on the surface. Tie that into Locke’s refusal to contact Jin, and bye-bye John.[/quote]
    [quote comment="316413"][quote comment="316409"]
    They are definitely NOT working together. I just hope they show us, eventually, how Ben got Widmore to turn the FDW.[/quote]

    Right. That was one of many things confirmed in this episode: Widmore was exiled from the island at some point – unless Widmore was lying. Things would be so much easier to keep straight and understand if we could RELY on what one character says to another as being truthful!

    But here is another question, who WAS the woman that “the pilot” took off with? And… was “the pilot” really Lapidus? There would have been a co-pilot on the plane, right? Maybe Lapidus time jumped with the O5? Maybe the co-pilot was a Widmore plant?

    : ) P[/quote]
    I also think it was confirmed that Penny was born/conceived on the island. At least in my interpretation of what Widmore said. Also I would guess that Widmore was with Alpert when Ben was younger and somehow involved in the purge because Ben did not take power until after this occurred.

  169. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316440"][quote comment="316385"]I noticed one thing that’s very consisent. Ben keeps getting those a$$ whoopins. Kharma….but kicked before he gets on the plane….busted up on the landing….he always pays for his actions. :)[/quote]
    Could they have just thought he was injured in the crash because he already had injuries.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    I have the luxury of a DVR, he has NEW wounds that are a bit worse than when he got on the plane. His mouth is swollen to huge proportions, he has fresh blood running from his ear that has gotten all over his shirt. The wound preflight were cleaned and and he had on clean clothes as well.

    Just saying.

  170. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316435"]Also, one other thing, I thought that once you turned the FDW you could never return to the island. So how did Locke and Ben end up back there?[/quote]
    Ben said that only to Locke, just before turning the FDW, so who knows if that is true.

  171. DocH says:

    [quote] When I rewatched the scene, they are walking down….what looks like to me….the unfinished runway just to the left of the plane….there is no doubt in my mind that is the runway they were trying to build.[/quote]
    I am going with the “not a runway” vote here too. I don’t know how wide your screen is, but I have the 16:9 HD (see it all) view, and they are walking down what looks like a creek bed or flat gully wash that empties onto the beach. There is tall vegetation all along both sides of it – just 5 yards apart (aka. narrow damn runway).

  172. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316446"]
    I also think it was confirmed that Penny was born/conceived on the island. At least in my interpretation of what Widmore said. Also I would guess that Widmore was with Alpert when Ben was younger and somehow involved in the purge because Ben did not take power until after this occurred.[/quote]

    I am not saying that you are wrong, but would like you to please clarify what you mean. When did Widmore say anything about Penny having been born on the island?

    : ) P

  173. duke says:

    [quote comment="316439"][quote comment="316437"][quote comment="316327"][quote comment="316322"][quote comment="316319"]One theory dead, 316 crashed.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    Not so fast. Plane looked fully intact, as though it skid down a makeshift runway………maybe.[/quote]
    ==========
    The plane was behind them on the beach.[/quo[quote comment="316333"][quote comment="316322"]
    Not so fast. Plane looked fully intact, as though it skid down a makeshift runway………maybe.[/quote]
    Maybe Sully was in the cockpit with Lapidus.:)[/quote]

    There was no runway. The plane looked to be just off the beach which is next to the water. The “runway” that Sawyer and Kate were working on didn’t appear to be near the beach. They also had no time to finish it. Juliet was sarcastic when she said it. The same way she was sarcastic when she said something about it being very aliens when she was walking through the jungle with Sawyer.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    When I rewatched the scene, they are walking down….what looks like to me….the unfinished runway just to the left of the plane….there is no doubt in my mind that is the runway they were trying to build.[/quote]
    Let go of the runway idea. They never finished it. They only worked a couple of days and the the stuff with Ben’s surgery and Jack getting them set free took place. You have to let go of this Hammer.

  174. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316434"]For all of my adoring fans waiting for my bedtime for Bonzo thought…..ha….I almost go that out without laughing…..I’m an idiot…anyway:

    The Life mag had this at the top: Color Pictures of Hydrogen Test
    Dave Beck, former boss of goons emerges as labor’s new strong man.

    Then as he flips through there is a picture of Creature from the black lagoon carrying a woman.

    Then a Hanes underwear ad.

    The paper he was looking at had circles with lines running between them….some lines said Real Time, some said Space Time and some said Imaginary Time. There was also an Event A and and Event B referenced.[/quote]
    What station was Caeser in where he found that?

  175. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316450"][quote comment="316446"]
    I also think it was confirmed that Penny was born/conceived on the island. At least in my interpretation of what Widmore said. Also I would guess that Widmore was with Alpert when Ben was younger and somehow involved in the purge because Ben did not take power until after this occurred.[/quote]

    I am not saying that you are wrong, but would like you to please clarify what you mean. When did Widmore say anything about Penny having been born on the island?

    : ) P[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Yes, I must have missed that episode.

  176. duke says:

    [quote comment="316450"][quote comment="316446"]
    I also think it was confirmed that Penny was born/conceived on the island. At least in my interpretation of what Widmore said. Also I would guess that Widmore was with Alpert when Ben was younger and somehow involved in the purge because Ben did not take power until after this occurred.[/quote]

    I am not saying that you are wrong, but would like you to please clarify what you mean. When did Widmore say anything about Penny having been born on the island?

    : ) P[/quote]
    He didn’t say that specially. He said something to the effects of he was banished by Ben from the island. This leads me to believe that Penny being somewhere around her mid thirties would have to have been born/conceived on the island since Ben presumaly did not take power until his late teens early twenties.

  177. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316449"][quote] When I rewatched the scene, they are walking down….what looks like to me….the unfinished runway just to the left of the plane….there is no doubt in my mind that is the runway they were trying to build.[/quote]
    I am going with the “not a runway” vote here too. I don’t know how wide your screen is, but I have the 16:9 HD (see it all) view, and they are walking down what looks like a creek bed or flat gully wash that empties onto the beach. There is tall vegetation all along both sides of it – just 5 yards apart (aka. narrow damn runway).[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Gonna have to use the agree to disagree card. They are on the small island, where the runway was being built, and the managed a fairly soft landing with the plane intact. I don’t think the hints are for not. Continuity problem because it’s too close to the beach? Maybe. I have another continuity problem for you. How did Walt know Locke’s alias? He never told him he had one and he called him John several times during the conversation……just saying.

  178. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316451"]+++++++++++++++++
    When I rewatched the scene, they are walking down….what looks like to me….the unfinished runway just to the left of the plane….there is no doubt in my mind that is the runway they were trying to build.[/quote]
    Let go of the runway idea. They never finished it. They only worked a couple of days and the the stuff with Ben’s surgery and Jack getting them set free took place. You have to let go of this Hammer.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Ummmmm….no.

  179. duke says:

    [quote comment="316439"][quote comment="316437"][quote comment="316327"][quote comment="316322"][quote comment="316319"]One theory dead, 316 crashed.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    Not so fast. Plane looked fully intact, as though it skid down a makeshift runway………maybe.[/quote]
    ==========
    The plane was behind them on the beach.[/quo[quote comment="316333"][quote comment="316322"]
    Not so fast. Plane looked fully intact, as though it skid down a makeshift runway………maybe.[/quote]
    Maybe Sully was in the cockpit with Lapidus.:)[/quote]

    There was no runway. The plane looked to be just off the beach which is next to the water. The “runway” that Sawyer and Kate were working on didn’t appear to be near the beach. They also had no time to finish it. Juliet was sarcastic when she said it. The same way she was sarcastic when she said something about it being very aliens when she was walking through the jungle with Sawyer.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    When I rewatched the scene, they are walking down….what looks like to me….the unfinished runway just to the left of the plane….there is no doubt in my mind that is the runway they were trying to build.[/quote]

    There should be doubt. You seem smarter than that. The plane was too close to the beach. It would need quit abit of runway to have stopped which would have put it further into the jungle. It couldn’t have it the water then stopped at the beginning of your runway. Frank seems to be very experienced and once the plane went through the window he was able to make an emergency landing of some kind.

  180. duke says:

    [quote comment="316455"][quote comment="316449"][quote] When I rewatched the scene, they are walking down….what looks like to me….the unfinished runway just to the left of the plane….there is no doubt in my mind that is the runway they were trying to build.[/quote]
    I am going with the “not a runway” vote here too. I don’t know how wide your screen is, but I have the 16:9 HD (see it all) view, and they are walking down what looks like a creek bed or flat gully wash that empties onto the beach. There is tall vegetation all along both sides of it – just 5 yards apart (aka. narrow damn runway).[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Gonna have to use the agree to disagree card. They are on the small island, where the runway was being built, and the managed a fairly soft landing with the plane intact. I don’t think the hints are for not. Continuity problem because it’s too close to the beach? Maybe. I have another continuity problem for you. How did Walt know Locke’s alias? He never told him he had one and he called him John several times during the conversation……just saying.[/quote]
    Walt has been shown to have been special. He shows up to shannon all wet and convinces locke to get out of the dharma pit. It isn’t far fetched that he would know that.

  181. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316459"] You seem smarter than that. [/quote]
    Wow…..

  182. duke says:

    [quote comment="316461"][quote comment="316459"] You seem smarter than that. [/quote]
    Wow…..[/quote]
    That was a compliment or it was meant to be anyway. No offense intended.

  183. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316460"][/quote]
    Walt has been shown to have been special. He shows up to shannon all wet and convinces locke to get out of the dharma pit. It isn’t far fetched that he would know that.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    And yet not know that where his dad is….

    Those appearances were apparitions IMO.

  184. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316461"][quote comment="316459"] You seem smarter than that. [/quote]
    Wow…..[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Dare I say it….snarky. I don’t even know what that means.

  185. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316463"][quote comment="316460"][/quote]
    Walt has been shown to have been special. He shows up to shannon all wet and convinces locke to get out of the dharma pit. It isn’t far fetched that he would know that.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    And yet not know that where his dad is….

    Those appearances were apparitions IMO.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    Oops…I meant manifestations…not apparitions.

  186. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316454"]
    He didn’t say that specially. He said something to the effects of he was banished by Ben from the island. This leads me to believe that Penny being somewhere around her mid thirties would have to have been born/conceived on the island since Ben presumaly did not take power until his late teens early twenties.[/quote]
    So you are assuming that she was born on the island and it wasn’t ACTUALLY confirmed. WHEW! I only walked out of the room for a minute and thought I missed that. You know what happens when you assume?

  187. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="316454"][quote comment="316450"][quote comment="316446"]
    I also think it was confirmed that Penny was born/conceived on the island. At least in my interpretation of what Widmore said. Also I would guess that Widmore was with Alpert when Ben was younger and somehow involved in the purge because Ben did not take power until after this occurred.[/quote]

    I am not saying that you are wrong, but would like you to please clarify what you mean. When did Widmore say anything about Penny having been born on the island?

    : ) P[/quote]
    He didn’t say that specially. He said something to the effects of he was banished by Ben from the island. This leads me to believe that Penny being somewhere around her mid thirties would have to have been born/conceived on the island since Ben presumaly did not take power until his late teens early twenties.[/quote]

    BEN WAS 30! I also think that is a good catch. Now how could she forget that?

  188. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316452"][quote comment="316434"]For all of my adoring fans waiting for my bedtime for Bonzo thought…..ha….I almost go that out without laughing…..I’m an idiot…anyway:

    The Life mag had this at the top: Color Pictures of Hydrogen Test
    Dave Beck, former boss of goons emerges as labor’s new strong man.

    Then as he flips through there is a picture of Creature from the black lagoon carrying a woman.

    Then a Hanes underwear ad.

    The paper he was looking at had circles with lines running between them….some lines said Real Time, some said Space Time and some said Imaginary Time. There was also an Event A and and Event B referenced.[/quote]
    What station was Caeser in where he found that?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    I don’t know….close enough to walk to from the beach/runway. :)

  189. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="316466"][quote comment="316454"]
    He didn’t say that specially. He said something to the effects of he was banished by Ben from the island. This leads me to believe that Penny being somewhere around her mid thirties would have to have been born/conceived on the island since Ben presumaly did not take power until his late teens early twenties.[/quote]
    So you are assuming that she was born on the island and it wasn’t ACTUALLY confirmed. WHEW! I only walked out of the room for a minute and thought I missed that. You know what happens when you assume?[/quote]

    IMO the math kinda makes sense. Penny isn’t that young. No way! Not sure if that is confirmed but even if ben is ten years older than her….still. I wonder when exactly Charles was banished.

  190. Tasha says:

    After reading thru most of the comments with a buzz tonight….I had to throw something in that I didn’t see mentioned, yet I might have just skipped over so ignore me.

    Regarding Ben killing Locke: I posted above somewhere that Locke couldn’t kill himself. It is a sin and he can’t break promises. Ben though, well that’s why he has been rejected anyway. He is a evil leader. Like the devil. BUT I believe Ben knows that Locke needs to die so did it for him.

    Also, he had to die anyway. Richard told him he needs to. Was it because he could see the future? Trying to keep him alive? Not sure on this one, but wanted to point out that RICHARD originally said he would have to die.

    And last but not least…what the heck is Godspeed? I mean…I know it’s been mentioned before, but what does it mean? Charles says…John (pause) Godspeed. What does Godspeed mean???

  191. Hammer says:

    Godspeed, as a word, is a wish for a prosperous journey, success, and good fortune.

    From Middle English God spede (you), may God prosper (you)

  192. Tasha says:

    Oh yes! One more thing…does anyone think that anyone disappeared after the first flight? The crash of 815?

    THIS SHOW IS CRAZY!!!! I LOVE IT!

  193. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="316471"]Godspeed, as a word, is a wish for a prosperous journey, success, and good fortune.

    From Middle English God spede (you), may God prosper (you)[/quote]

    Thank you!

  194. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316462"][quote comment="316461"][quote comment="316459"] You seem smarter than that. [/quote]
    Wow…..[/quote]
    That was a compliment or it was meant to be anyway. No offense intended.[/quote]

    * * * * * * *

    Yeah, not so much. That was what is called a back-handed compliment. Whether or not you intended it, that’s how I see it. By saying, “I thought you were smarter than that,” you come across as saying, “I thought you were smart, but BOY was I wrong!”

    Because it is very difficult to “read” people’s intentions, electronic media has the capacity to muddy up the personal space. I try to always add grins *g* or LOL’s to show that what I am saying is intended to be funny or silly. It helps to make up for the lack of facial expressions or voice timbre that is lost in a post.

    : ) P

  195. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316472"]Oh yes! One more thing…does anyone think that anyone disappeared after the first flight? The crash of 815?

    THIS SHOW IS CRAZY!!!! I LOVE IT![/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    Nope, I think the manifest was covered by Hugo. The plane was brought down because of Des’s lateness on punching numbers as it was passing thru…the O6ers disappeared because as they went thru their window, they time travelled to catch up with their group. The plane kept going and ‘landed’ in a different time on the island than our ‘group’. I think. :)

  196. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316471"]Godspeed, as a word, is a wish for a prosperous journey, success, and good fortune.

    From Middle English God spede (you), may God prosper (you)[/quote]

    Perhaps it was also a hint that Widmore is linked to Horace?

    : ) P

  197. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="316477"][quote comment="316471"]Godspeed, as a word, is a wish for a prosperous journey, success, and good fortune.

    From Middle English God spede (you), may God prosper (you)[/quote]

    Perhaps it was also a hint that Widmore is linked to Horace?

    : ) P[/quote]
    ___________________
    I guess I was thinking of him.

  198. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316476"][quote comment="316472"]Oh yes! One more thing…does anyone think that anyone disappeared after the first flight? The crash of 815?

    THIS SHOW IS CRAZY!!!! I LOVE IT![/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    Nope, I think the manifest was covered by Hugo. The plane was brought down because of Des’s lateness on punching numbers as it was passing thru…the O6ers disappeared because as they went thru their window, they time travelled to catch up with their group. The plane kept going and ‘landed’ in a different time on the island than our ‘group’. I think. :)[/quote]

    * * * * * * *

    While I suspect that you are right, Hammer, I am not sure that Hurley was able to account for EVERYONE. He knew that Ethan WASN’T on the plane, but can we really believe that Hurley was able to account for every person who was supposed to be on the plane? At the very least, he didn’t know the whereabouts of Ana-Lucia, Bernard, Libby, Eko and the other Tailies that perished.

    : ) P

  199. DocH says:

    Hammer wrote:
    [quote] Gonna have to use the agree to disagree card. Gonna have to use the agree to disagree card. They are on the small island, where the runway was being …I have another continuity problem for you. How did Walt know Locke’s alias? He never told him he had one and he called him John several times during the conversation……just saying.[/quote]
    I always honor the card. But I trump it with the – you changed the subject card. WE have not seen a runway. They appear to have landed in the water and slid ashore just over the high tide line. The perspective from the beach seems to be from the small island. Canoes would make sensible transport between the two islands. One of the three is stolen and taken to the big island by Pilot and Woman (Frank/Sun). Later, when the Left Behinds (James, Juliet, +) borrow one, they are chased by Ajirans that have weapons from the small island, that they brought to the big island.

    My vote is still NO, on the runway… but I am fairly certain the Ajirans were on the small island, because Caesar was going through office files at the end of the episode that had Hydra logos on them – Dharma files from the small island.

  200. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="316476"][quote comment="316472"]Oh yes! One more thing…does anyone think that anyone disappeared after the first flight? The crash of 815?

    THIS SHOW IS CRAZY!!!! I LOVE IT![/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    Nope, I think the manifest was covered by Hugo. The plane was brought down because of Des’s lateness on punching numbers as it was passing thru…the O6ers disappeared because as they went thru their window, they time travelled to catch up with their group. The plane kept going and ‘landed’ in a different time on the island than our ‘group’. I think. :)[/quote]

    __________________

    Well the manifest wasn’t that accurate. Some people were dead and then there was the taillies. He was looking for people that WEREN’T on it. The rest of your argument makes sense though so that is good. One thing in my head solved.

  201. Hammer says:

    Good point Tasha….leaves it open. But I think that it was a different circumstance….that’s all.

  202. Tasha says:

    The island Locke was looking at looked pretty big so I think they are on the smaller island. I just saw a creepy pic of the alien in that magazine they were flipping thru. It’s freaking me out. I will be mad if this is an alien show!

    Also, this isn’t about this episode, but Discovery Channel or something aired a special about Bikini Atol the other day and I recorded it. Anyhow, it talked about the Hydrogen testing and did you know they have found mutated Nurse Sharks that they think is frm the radiation. If the 4 toed statue wasn’t so ancient looking, I would say, we have mutated islanders!

  203. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316480"]Hammer wrote:
    [quote] Gonna have to use the agree to disagree card. Gonna have to use the agree to disagree card. They are on the small island, where the runway was being …I have another continuity problem for you. How did Walt know Locke’s alias? He never told him he had one and he called him John several times during the conversation……just saying.[/quote]
    I always honor the card. But I trump it with the – you changed the subject card. WE have not seen a runway. They appear to have landed in the water and slid ashore just over the high tide line. The perspective from the beach seems to be from the small island. Canoes would make sensible transport between the two islands. One of the three is stolen and taken to the big island by Pilot and Woman (Frank/Sun). Later, when the Left Behinds (James, Juliet, +) borrow one, they are chased by Ajirans that have weapons from the small island, that they brought to the big island.

    My vote is still NO, on the runway… but I am fairly certain the Ajirans were on the small island, because Caesar was going through office files at the end of the episode that had Hydra logos on them – Dharma files from the small island.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    Okay, I give you all that. I am crazy for then thinking that they were building the runway for this plane and the plane missed it. I really, really, really don’t think they put that runway building scene in for nothing. And I really, really, really don’t think they are on the small island for the heck of it….the clues are punching me in the face.

  204. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316486"]It was for the aliens! See for yourself!! LOL. J/K

    http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/57c52403c7c0cf85be68044fe99eff58%5B/quote%5D

    ++++++++++++++++=
    I’m pretty sure that it’s not an alien, but the Creature From The Black Lagoon. It’s a sea monster.

  205. DocH says:

    Okay, I’ll meet you half-way Hammer. They MAY have been building an airstrip on Hydra. But not for a B737-700… maybe for the company puddle-jumper. And let’s be clear on this… aliens don’t need runways! All they need are clearings. You don’t travel from another star system, if you can’t land vertically. (Whoops… let’s go home. This planet doesn’t have a three mile stretch of concrete to de-orbit to.) [;^)

  206. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316488"]Okay, I’ll meet you half-way Hammer. They MAY have been building an airstrip on Hydra. But not for a B737-700… maybe for the company puddle-jumper. And let’s be clear on this… aliens don’t need runways! All they need are clearings. You don’t travel from another star system, if you can’t land vertically. (Whoops… let’s go home. This planet doesn’t have a three mile stretch of concrete to de-orbit to.) [;^)[/quote]
    Okay sir.

    Just for the record….are you confirming that aliens don’t need runways? First hand experience? LOL.

  207. Hman says:

    How did Walt know Locke’s alias? He never told him he had one and he called him John several times during the conversation……just saying.[/quote]

    What do you mean Walt knows John only as John why would he refer to him as another name??? Also I am going with not a runway. It looked like the plane was surrounded by a buncha trees. ANYWAY WTF IS BEN GOOD OR BAD!?!?

  208. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316490"]What do you mean Walt knows John only as John why would he refer to him as another name??? [/quote]

    I believe that when Walt came to visit Hurley, he told Hurley that Jeremy Bentham had come to see him.

    HTH,
    : ) P

  209. Tasha says:

    And I didn’t know Hurley was an artist! He was drawing a Sphinx which I am now reading up on. Some statues stand tall. Not sure about the sandals but they definitely have four toes! Why was Hurley drawing that? Please nobody give me a DUH answer cause I am a little slow tonight!

  210. DocH says:

    [quote]Okay sir. Just for the record….are you confirming that aliens don’t need runways? First hand experience? LOL.[/quote]
    I can neither confirm, nor deny such allegations as I have no knowledge of the afore-mentioned subject.

    (Meet my kids and you’ll understand. Can you repeat over-and-over, “One of us, one of us.”)

    Creature/Black Lagoon = prehistoric, amphibious “Gill Man” – possibly the last of a species of fanged, clawed humanoids who may have evolved entirely underwater… movie makes excellent use of the tropical location, employing heavy mists and eerie jungle noises to create an atmosphere of nearly constant menace.

    (Sounds like they had their own Whispers)

  211. Flyboy says:

    Ben killed Locke only after he talks about Elouise Hawking. Before that Ben was trying everything in his power to prevent Locke from killing himself (probably because he thought that he needed Locke alive to help get back to the island, not because Ben is a good guy and truly wants to help John). Once Ben found out that Alpert told Locke he had to die and then Locke mentioned Elouise Hawking his (Ben’s) mind snapped and he went into killing mode. Ellie (Elouise Hawking) might know what Ben did and maybe Ben is afraid that if Locke gets to her she might tell him. He (Ben) also realized that Locke was expendable at that point because Alpert said he was going to die (so it would not be necessary for John to be alive for them to return to the island). What Ben did back on the island we do not know. But we do know that what ever Ben did culminated with Charles Widmore being exiled from the island. We also know that Widmore and Hawking were on the island at the same time in 1954. So Hawking would definitely know something about the events that took place when Ben did what he did to dethrone Widmore as the leader and then cause him to be exiled off the island. That is precisely why Hawking told Jack that he (Ben) was probably lying back at the lamp post station.

  212. Snaisy says:

    [quote comment="316489"][quote comment="316488"]Okay, I’ll meet you half-way Hammer. They MAY have been building an airstrip on Hydra. But not for a B737-700… maybe for the company puddle-jumper. And let’s be clear on this… aliens don’t need runways! All they need are clearings. You don’t travel from another star system, if you can’t land vertically. (Whoops… let’s go home. This planet doesn’t have a three mile stretch of concrete to de-orbit to.) [;^)[/quote]
    Okay sir.

    Just for the record….are you confirming that aliens don’t need runways? First hand experience? LOL.[/quote]
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    This is off LOST topic but Def another passion of mine… Aliens, do not need runways or clearings or any of that jazz in order to “land” anywhere. Intellectual forms of transportation,aka technology, can only get you so far. In order to go where/whenever you want…you have to do it from within. In order to just appear… a being has to change its frequency and vibrations to that of the time/place/location etc they intend on going to and BAM there you are. So, no runways needed if we bridge the Alien topic to LOST.

    =o)

  213. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="316494"]Ben killed Locke only after he talks about Elouise Hawking. Before that Ben was trying everything in his power to prevent Locke from killing himself (probably because he thought that he needed Locke alive to help get back to the island, not because Ben is a good guy and truly wants to help John). Once Ben found out that Alpert told Locke he had to die and then Locke mentioned Elouise Hawking his (Ben’s) mind snapped and he went into killing mode. Ellie (Elouise Hawking) might know what Ben did and maybe Ben is afraid that if Locke gets to her she might tell him. He (Ben) also realized that Locke was expendable at that point because Alpert said he was going to die (so it would not be necessary for John to be alive for them to return to the island).

    What Ben did back on the island we do not know. But we do know that what ever Ben did culminated with Charles Widmore being exiled from the island. We also know that Widmore and Hawking were on the island at the same time in 1954. So Hawking would definitely know something about the events that took place when Ben did what he did to dethrone Widmore as the leader and then cause him to be exiled off the island. That is precisely why Hawking told Jack that he (Ben) was probably lying back at the lamp post station.[/quote]

    DId I miss the part where Locke told Ben Richard said he had to die? I was waiting for it. Did he for sure tell him?

  214. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="316495"][quote comment="316489"][quote comment="316488"]Okay, I’ll meet you half-way Hammer. They MAY have been building an airstrip on Hydra. But not for a B737-700… maybe for the company puddle-jumper. And let’s be clear on this… aliens don’t need runways! All they need are clearings. You don’t travel from another star system, if you can’t land vertically. (Whoops… let’s go home. This planet doesn’t have a three mile stretch of concrete to de-orbit to.) [;^)[/quote]
    Okay sir.

    Just for the record….are you confirming that aliens don’t need runways? First hand experience? LOL.[/quote]
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    This is off LOST topic but Def another passion of mine… Aliens, do not need runways or clearings or any of that jazz in order to “land” anywhere. Intellectual forms of transportation,aka technology, can only get you so far. In order to go where/whenever you want…you have to do it from within. In order to just appear… a being has to change its frequency and vibrations to that of the time/place/location etc they intend on going to and BAM there you are. So, no runways needed if we bridge the Alien topic to LOST.

    =o)[/quote]

    ____________

    Not if the aliens are already here. If they go as far as aliens on this show, then they can go as far a hallow earth and I think that if there is a hallow earth that is where the aliens come from!

  215. Flyboy says:

    No, Locke did not tell Ben that Alpert said he had to die… I just watched the scene over again. But I stand by my earlier post. Up until Locke mentions Eloise Hawking Ben genuinely wants to prevent Locke from killing himself. After Locke mentions Eloise, Ben asks him if he is sure, then Locke says ‘yes… why do you know her’ and that’s when Ben kills him. Ben also says that he has been watching all the o6 and keeping them safe. Somehow he knows they all have to go back so when Locke says that he can’t tell Sun that Jin is alive Ben automaticly starts thinking about plan B…… remember.. Ben always has a plan. Ben is a master manipulator who can do anything in cold blood as long as it serves his purpose which is to stay in control and have the power. Think of all the cold things Ben has done thus far. We don’t even have to go that far back…. just on flight 316 Jack asks Ben what happens to the rest of the people on the plane and Ben says…’who cares’.

    It’s simple. At first, Ben thought he needed Locke so he desperately tries to prevent him from killing himself. Next, Ben realizes that Locke will only get in his way (by not approving of telling Sun that Jin is alive) so he starts thinking about plan B. Finally, Locke tells him about Hawking and Ben now puts all the pieces together and knows what he has to do… therefor Locke is no longer necessary and worse he could possibly get in the way so it’s time for plan C… kill Locke.

  216. Flyboy says:

    I think Jack flashed to the island during the first crash (flight 815) and that is why he did not remember the crash while the other survivors that were on the beach did.

    That is why Jack woke up in the jungle and not on the beach with the rest of the survivors (of 815) in the exact same way that he did after the flash of flight 316.

    That is also why Christian Shepard appeared to him and told him to ‘get up Jack, you have work to do’.
    Some course correction stuff that we don’t know about yet, possibly.

    This is also why Jack, Hurley, and Kate wake up after flashing from flight 316 and don’t remember a crash. Possibly they have some course correcting to do as well.

    Could it be that Jin (like Christian Shepard) did die but came back to life when the island flashed back in time to a time before his actual death. Now the 3 (Jack, Kate, and Hurley) flash back to the 70’s where Jin is so that they can play a role in the course correction of Jin’s death.

    Maybe Christian Shepard was alive on the island for the same reason as Jin. Maybe if you are dead on the island when it flashes to a time before your actual death then you appear alive again. Maybe Jack flashed during 815 because he had to play some role in the course correction of his father’s death.

    Also dead Locke is all of a sudden back alive on the island.

    Maybe the alternate time lines can only exist on the island as a way for the universe to course correct so that the continuity of the real time line off the island is not skewed by any paradox type situation.

  217. Flyboy says:

    Maybe the alternate time lines can only exist on the island as a way for the universe to course correct so that the continuity of the real time line off the island is not skewed by any paradox type situation.

    let me clarify the above….

    this is to protect from people leaving the island that were not supposed to and could possibly cause paradox type situations off the island if they interact with the real time line.

  218. DharmaGreg says:

    Roads… Where we’re going we don’t need Roads. Or Runways. But I think the runway was being built for flight 316 and whether it was finished or not, I think the plane used it. Maybe they ran off the runway??? Hurley couldn’t have known about every passenger considering he didn’t know about the tailies at the time and what about all of those people still strapped in their seats underwater. Remember when that loser Paulo was looking for the diamonds? I’m so gald he’s dead…

  219. Flyboy says:

    Let me shed some more light on how I’m thinking….

    I believe about 100 days or so passed for the o6 between the crash of 815 and their rescue, however, in the off island real time line about 3 years passed.

    Maybe the o6 were not supposed to leave because some of them died somewhere between 2001 and 2004 in the real time line off the island. However, on the island time line they were not dead yet because they had not reached the year 2004 yet (remember only 100 days or so had gone by). This would mean that if they left the island and came back to the real time line passed a time when they were supposed to be dead (in this case the year 2004) that would create a time paradox.

    Now they all have to go back to course correct.

  220. Flyboy says:

    Could it be that Jin (like Christian Shepard) did die but came back to life when the island flashed back in time to a time before his actual death. Now the 3 (Jack, Kate, and Hurley) flash back to the 70’s where Jin is so that they can play a role in the course correction of Jin’s death.

    Or maybe the opposite… Jin survived and is now stuck in the 70’s working for Dharma. Now, Jack Kate and Hurley have to go flash back to do some course correcting before Jin dies in the purge or what ever is going to happen to course correct the Dharma people being wiped off the island.

    That is ironic… a course correction to correct a course correction. Maybe that is what can get out of control… too many course corrections happening at the same time and that is what must be prevented to save the world…

  221. Flyboy says:

    That is ironic… a course correction to correct a course correction. Maybe that is what can get out of control… too many course corrections happening at the same time and that is what must be prevented to save the world…

    Maybe that is what the upcoming ‘war’ is about. If the wrong people win then the real time line will go haywire with too many course corrections and time paradoxes start to happen mixing everything up.

  222. per the discussion on his leg wound, I think everyone (who hasn’t already) should do themselves a favor and read the (always class) time loop theory at timelooptheory.com

  223. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="316503"]Let me shed some more light on how I’m thinking….

    I believe about 100 days or so passed for the o6 between the crash of 815 and their rescue, however, in the off island real time line about 3 years passed.

    Maybe the o6 were not supposed to leave because some of them died somewhere between 2001 and 2004 in the real time line off the island. However, on the island time line they were not dead yet because they had not reached the year 2004 yet (remember only 100 days or so had gone by). This would mean that if they left the island and came back to the real time line passed a time when they were supposed to be dead (in this case the year 2004) that would create a time paradox.

    Now they all have to go back to course correct.[/quote]
    I disagree with this. I think enough evidence has been given in past seasons to show that the date on the island (prior to Ben turning FDW) is the same as the date off island. Think of Ben telling Jack the Red Sox won the World Series (which occurred in October 2004), and then Lapidus confirming it. And the news coverage of their rescue didn’t mention 3 years time had elapsed. And the 2004 calendar that was on the freighter. And in “the Constant”, Desmond calls Penny on Dec 24, 2004. And…. I’ll stop there.

  224. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="316500"]I think Jack flashed to the island during the first crash (flight 815) and that is why he did not remember the crash while the other survivors that were on the beach did.

    That is why Jack woke up in the jungle and not on the beach with the rest of the survivors (of 815) in the exact same way that he did after the flash of flight 316.
    the course correction of his father’s death.

    [/quote]

    It’s possible, but I really doubt that’s what happened. The other “flashes” we’ve seen have involved time travel. In the case of the crash of OA 815, you’re saying Jack’s TT was to the exact same time as everyone else? Possible, but not likely, IMHO. Also, Jack was injured after OA815, which is not a feature of any of the other TT flashes we’ve witnessed. (in other words, with the TT flashes shown this season, there has been no physical movement that would result in injury). Finally I think Rose would have noticed Jack disappearing, just as Caesar noticed Hurley disappear, but that has never been mentioned. None of this is 100% proof positive that Jack didn’t TT at the time of the crash of OA815, but I think that’s is highly unlikely.

  225. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="316280"]I think the writer’s have said that their will be no time paradox in the sense that you could go back and kill your mom before you are born. They never said anything about multiple timelines existing simultaneously. [/quote]

    [quote comment="316500"]
    Could it be that Jin (like Christian Shepard) did die but came back to life when the island flashed back in time to a time before his actual death. Now the 3 (Jack, Kate, and Hurley) flash back to the 70’s where Jin is so that they can play a role in the course correction of Jin’s death.

    Maybe Christian Shepard was alive on the island for the same reason as Jin. Maybe if you are dead on the island when it flashes to a time before your actual death then you appear alive again. Maybe Jack flashed during 815 because he had to play some role in the course correction of his father’s death.

    Also dead Locke is all of a sudden back alive on the island.

    Maybe the alternate time lines can only exist on the island as a way for the universe to course correct so that the continuity of the real time line off the island is not skewed by any paradox type situation.[/quote]

    The writers may never have specifically said “there will be no multiple timelines”, but Faraday did say this, when he said something about time being like a road, something like “You cannot make a new road”.

    And I don’t think the TT on this show works the way you’re saying, with regards to dead people flashing to a time prior to their death. There is something about dead people becoming “reincarnated” when they get to the island, but I don’t think it’s a result of time travel.

    OK flyboy, I’m sorry about trying to shoot down all your theories. It’s all interesting reading, I just happen do disagree with a lot of it. I’ll leave you alone now and set my sights on someone else…let’s see…who should I….Ah yes! Hammer!

  226. Toeknee says:

    Actually, Hammer I don’t have much to disagree with you about just yet. I won’t rule out the runway idea, although it does seem that the plane is currently located not particularly close to the runway. I don’t think anyone ever finished building the runway, but there was a clearing for it. So it could be that the plane first aimed for that clearing, but by the time the plane came to a stop it was on the beach.

    And I have to say the following comment made me feel better:

    [quote comment="316367"]I just can’t figure out who in the hell is on whose side. Ben working with Hawking, Widmore working with Hawking. Ben takes Locke back, Widmore wants Locke back….WTF? There’s going to be a war and the wrong side wins if they don’t back, but the other side is taking them back.

    Third party coming???[/quote]

    You always seem to be a few steps ahead of me in figuring out what’s going on, so it’s reassuring to see you felt the same way I did, in trying to figure out who is on whom’s side. And how does Alpert fit in? He seemed to want to get rid of Ben (I think at one point he told Locke something about people wanting change). But he doesn’t seem to have any current alliance with Widmore.

  227. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="316303"][quote comment="316240"]It appears most of you don’t watch the sneak peeks that this site provides, but a number of your questions are answered in the sneak peeks. The sneak peeks always reveal the first few minutes of the show. So some of your theories have actually already been revealed.[/quote]
    I never watch them.[/quote]
    [quote comment="316422"]
    _______________________________
    Me neither, and from RGS’s comments, I’m glad I didn’t watch the preview for this ep. Way too spoilerish for my liking.

    [quote comment="316413"]
    The co-pilot had to have been Sully to land the plane like that.:)
    [/quote]

    Great call L4E!

  228. Hammer says:

    LOL Toeknee…go ahead….it wouldn’t be right if you didn’t. :)

  229. Toeknee says:

    This whole “Jeremy Bentham” thing bothers me. A few comments above mentioned this, like Hammer (177) and PJ (209). We saw the entirety of each conversation Locke had with Walt, Hurley and Jack, and if I remember correctly, not once did Locke refer to himself as Jeremy Bentham, so how did any of them know that was his name? Maybe I’m being too critical, but this sort of ruins the whole “Jeremy Bentham” alias sub-plot.

    Similarly, in a recent episode, when Ben gave Sun Jin’s ring, Ben said Locke gave it to him. And Sun said something like, why didn’t Locke give it to me himself. This implies that Locke visited Sun as well. But that wasn’t shown last night. So, did he or didn’t he visit her? And if not, why would she say,”why didn’t Locke give it to me himself?” Again, maybe I’m being too picky, but it seems like the writers are taking some liberties with the overall continuity just for the sake of an individual scene or episode.

  230. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="316363"]

    Big reveal, though, was the fact that Widmore remembered something in “photoshopped” history… or at least he pretended he did.

    : ) P[/quote]
    I don’t think that was a “photoshopped” memory. I think John Locke’s encounter with the young Widmore in 1954 always happened, and Widmore has always remembered it. If what Abaddon said is true, and Widmore did send Abaddon to tell Locke about the walkabout, Widmore has been keeping tabs on Locke since at least 2004, and quite likely since before then.

  231. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="316136"]I hope we get to see Abbadon tonight. Maybe he’ll collect on his, “the next time I see you, you’ll owe me one”.[/quote]
    Hmmmm I’d still like to know about this. But maybe, it was just Abaddon’s way of impressing on Locke how important it is for him to go on the walkabout? Hopefully Abaddon will reappear, in some fashion to shed further light on this issue.

    Also, given what we learned in this ep, who was Abaddon referring to when he visited Hurley in Santa Rosa and asked “Are they still alive?” The other Losties? The freighter folk? The Others? All of the above?

  232. LINS says:

    because i’m too lazy to go put in the dvd abnd watch it myself…do we ever see where hurley and kate end up after the 815 crash? ben/hawking said that they have to try to re-create the original circumstances as much as possible, thus the coffin and christian’s shoes and all that…and it shows jack waking up in the jungle almost exactly like with 815…but i can’t remember if we ever saw where kate or hurley “landed”?

    also, i thought it was interesting (and sad) that jack hopped a flight to sydney after locke told him his dad said hello.

    i’m considering the runway hammer, but i’m not fully convinced yet :)

    so are we assuming that all the 316ers crashed on the island in the 70’s? or is that where the losties flashed to?

  233. LostGrrl says:

    [quote comment="316503"]Let me shed some more light on how I’m thinking….[/quote]

    You either drank lots of coffee before all of those posts, or you’re a night owl. Either way, all these theories are making my head ache.

    The most interesting of your theories is that Jack flashed to the scene of the original crash. Hmmm…

  234. jleebee says:

    [quote comment="316534"]This whole “Jeremy Bentham” thing bothers me. A few comments above mentioned this, like Hammer (177) and PJ (209). We saw the entirety of each conversation Locke had with Walt, Hurley and Jack, and if I remember correctly, not once did Locke refer to himself as Jeremy Bentham, so how did any of them know that was his name? Maybe I’m being too critical, but this sort of ruins the whole “Jeremy Bentham” alias sub-plot.

    Similarly, in a recent episode, when Ben gave Sun Jin’s ring, Ben said Locke gave it to him. And Sun said something like, why didn’t Locke give it to me himself. This implies that Locke visited Sun as well. But that wasn’t shown last night. So, did he or didn’t he visit her? And if not, why would she say,”why didn’t Locke give it to me himself?” Again, maybe I’m being too picky, but it seems like the writers are taking some liberties with the overall continuity just for the sake of an individual scene or episode.[/quote]

    ~~~~~~~~

    from lostpedia….

    SAYID: Why do you really need to go back? Is it just because you have nowhere else to go?

    LOCKE: If you change your mind, I’ll be staying under the name “Jeremy Bentham” in L.A. at the Westerfield Hotel

  235. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="316540"]

    from lostpedia….

    SAYID: Why do you really need to go back? Is it just because you have nowhere else to go?

    LOCKE: If you change your mind, I’ll be staying under the name “Jeremy Bentham” in L.A. at the Westerfield Hotel[/quote]
    Right, that’s why I didn’t mention Sayid. Nor Kate, because some of that conversation took place off-screen. But for Walt, Hurley, and Jack, we saw the entire conversation. “JB” didn’t come up. How did they know?

  236. LostGrrl says:

    A thought…

    Ben and Locke both turned the FDW and landed off island. If we are to believe Widmore, that’s what happened to him, too.

    Eloise tells the O6 and Ben about Flight 316, to get them back on the island.

    They are successful; Ben and Locke get back to the island (despite someone saying once that when you turn the FDW you can never come back).

    Widmore is supposedly on the same side as Eloise. So if Widmore wants to get back to the island so badly, why didn’t he just get on Flight 316?

  237. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316434"]The Life mag had this at the top: Color Pictures of Hydrogen Test
    Dave Beck, former boss of goons emerges as labor’s new strong man.
    [/quote]
    FWIW, he was real and puts the time frame of the mag. in the late 50’s.

    Dave Beck
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jump to: navigation, search
    This article is about the American labor leader. For the Dutch portrait painter, see David Beck.
    Dave Beck
    Born June 16, 1894(1894-06-16)
    Stockton, California, U.S.
    Died December 26, 1993 (aged 99)
    Seattle, Washington, U.S.
    Occupation Union leader
    Spouse(s) Dorothy Beck[1]
    Children Dave Beck, Jr.[2]
    Parents Lemuel and Mary (Tierney) Beck
    Dave Beck (June 16, 1894-December 26, 1993) was an American labor leader, and president of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters from 1952 to 1957. He helped found the “Conference” system of organization in the Teamsters union, and shot to national prominence in 1957 by repeatedly invoking his right against self-incrimination before a United States Senate committee investigating labor racketeering.

  238. Byck says:

    Here’s what I got out of the episode, and Im pretty sure this is how its going to play out as well:

    Everyone on the plane is flashed back to early Dharma time sometime in the 70’s. That would explain the long canoe type boats on the shore. The Aijyrians and Ben and all them probably take the boats to the main island. The water bottle that was found in the boats on the shore of the main island earlier this season had Aijyrian writing on it (from the plane), so we know that they are all in the 70’s (cuz thats about when they were when the losties found those boats previously). Now I’m assuming that everyone (the losties) that was on the island after Locke turned the wheel is stuck in the 70’s, and we know they are there for 3 years in outside time… so who knows how long theyve been there in island time… but obviously long enough for Faraday and Jin to infiltrate Dharma and get jobs.

    As for Ben, he is not a good person. There is no debate whether hes good or bad anymore, he’s just bad. He is on his own agenda, forcing his way back to the island when hes not supposed to be there. He must have Eloise Hawking tricked into thinking that Ben wants whats best for the island and now shes helping him (misinformed I believe), which is why he did not want Locke and her to meet (she would then find out that Ben is not really anyone special, just a greedy man on his own agenda to control the island).

    Here’s a leap though… maybe Ben has helpers on the plane, which is why that one guy was snooping through files and hid the gun from the woman at the beginning of the episode.

    Also, the producers have already stated its not an alien show (after season 1 or 2 in an interview)… so that theory is out the window. Also, I dont think that people come back alive when they are flashed to before they died, Christian just has some unkown connection to the island that hasnt been revealed yet… and so does Claire… and so does Aaron… and so does Jack. (OMG they are all related lol… what a coincidence!)

  239. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316544"]Here’s what I got out of the episode, and Im pretty sure this is how its going to play out as well:

    Everyone on the plane is flashed back to early Dharma time sometime in the 70’s. That would explain the long canoe type boats on the shore. The Aijyrians and Ben and all them probably take the boats to the main island. The water bottle that was found in the boats on the shore of the main island earlier this season had Aijyrian writing on it (from the plane), so we know that they are all in the 70’s (cuz thats about when they were when the losties found those boats previously). Now I’m assuming that everyone (the losties) that was on the island after Locke turned the wheel is stuck in the 70’s, and we know they are there for 3 years in outside time… so who knows how long theyve been there in island time… but obviously long enough for Faraday and Jin to infiltrate Dharma and get jobs.
    [/quote]
    Sorry but I have a hole to poke in this one.

    There are SEVERAL time flashES that happened AFTER they were shot at in the dugout boat…and then they ended up in the 70’s after several more violent time flashes that ended up killing Charlotte. Those boats with the water bottle are most definately not in the 70’s.

  240. jleebee says:

    [quote comment="316541"][quote comment="316540"]

    from lostpedia….

    SAYID: Why do you really need to go back? Is it just because you have nowhere else to go?

    LOCKE: If you change your mind, I’ll be staying under the name “Jeremy Bentham” in L.A. at the Westerfield Hotel[/quote]
    Right, that’s why I didn’t mention Sayid. Nor Kate, because some of that conversation took place off-screen. But for Walt, Hurley, and Jack, we saw the entire conversation. “JB” didn’t come up. How did they know?[/quote]

    ~~~~~

    sorry bout that.. not enough coffee.. yet.

    but, since JB was brought into Jacks hospital, it is/was possible that he had the passport we see in his hotel room under Jins ring with him?

    that would explain how Jack had known his name… who could have told Hurley.

    but Walt??? did Walt ever say Bentham?

  241. marco says:

    What about this Ceasar character and the woman with him. He went right to the file cabinet and took materials about the island and found the secreted shot gun. And hid this from the woman. Her name escapes me.

    Yes it is the small island.

    He is one of Widmores plants. Was he the guy at the checkin desk who spoke to Jack and sat in the front section with the 6?

  242. Lar says:

    On the question of what time frame are the Ajiran’s, I believe they are in the present time, and the O6 flashed back to the 70’s. The Ajirans find the canoes, and if I’m not mistaken, when the Island O6 found the canoes a few episodes back, it was after they found the remains of their camp (empty beer cans, etc). Just a thought. egads, I’m getting a headache trying to figure this out.

  243. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316550"]On the question of what time frame are the Ajiran’s, I believe they are in the present time, and the O6 flashed back to the 70’s. The Ajirans find the canoes, and if I’m not mistaken, when the Island O6 found the canoes a few episodes back, it was after they found the remains of their camp (empty beer cans, etc). Just a thought. egads, I’m getting a headache trying to figure this out.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    I agree.

  244. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="316539"][quote comment="316503"]Let me shed some more light on how I’m thinking….[/quote]

    You either drank lots of coffee before all of those posts, or you’re a night owl. Either way, all these theories are making my head ache.
    [/quote]

    ______________
    OMG! I feel the same way! I just told my sis ever since the time traveling started, reading this gives me a headache LOL. I am still hooked!

  245. flgrl says:

    The biggest thing to me was all the religious stuff. It has always seemed to me to be heavy into the Buddhist/Hindu mythology, but when John was standing on the desk about to be sacrificed, standing looking up to the heavens with his hands turned up and Ben was kneeling at his feet begging him not to, it just screamed Jesus. Then of course you have the Doubting Thomas (Jack) believing everything now and tie that in with all that talk of the painting last week and how Thomas was the one who said he would go with Jesus.

    Walt – I think his story is done and this is just their way of telling us to let him go. I agree that it seems like a lot of wasted story, but I think in the end they decided to go a different way. Either that or all the kids are going to come back into play in a big way.

    Not the most exciting episode but one that was certainly necessary to explain a lot of things. I actually felt sick to my stomach when Ben did his psychotic killing. I’m certainly leaning towards Widmore’s side now.

  246. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="316548"][quote comment="316541"][quote comment="316540"]

    from lostpedia….

    SAYID: Why do you really need to go back? Is it just because you have nowhere else to go?

    LOCKE: If you change your mind, I’ll be staying under the name “Jeremy Bentham” in L.A. at the Westerfield Hotel[/quote]
    Right, that’s why I didn’t mention Sayid. Nor Kate, because some of that conversation took place off-screen. But for Walt, Hurley, and Jack, we saw the entire conversation. “JB” didn’t come up. How did they know?[/quote]

    ~~~~~

    sorry bout that.. not enough coffee.. yet.

    but, since JB was brought into Jacks hospital, it is/was possible that he had the passport we see in his hotel room under Jins ring with him?

    that would explain how Jack had known his name… who could have told Hurley.

    but Walt??? did Walt ever say Bentham?[/quote]
    __________________________
    Back in the season 4 finale, when Walt went to see Hurley at Santa Rosa, he referred to Bentham. So at that point they supposedly both knew that name.

    Your comment about Jack made me think further about this – probably when Locke was brought to the hospital, the ambulance or hospital staff came across the passport, so they would identify him as Jeremy Bentham. But that name wouldn’t mean anything to Jack, if he saw it on some list of the hospital’s patients. So I guess we’re to assume that somehow Jack saw Locke being wheeled around the hospital. That would be quite a coincidence, but I suppose that’s what happened. (Like Locke was saying, it was fate). Then, inside Locke’s hospital room Jack either found his passport, or his chart which would have “Jeremy Bentham” on it. So, OK, I’ll take back that part of my critique. But I still don’t see how Hurley and Walt knew the name.

  247. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316534"]We saw the entirety of each conversation Locke had with Walt, Hurley and Jack, and if I remember correctly, not once did Locke refer to himself as Jeremy Bentham, so how did any of them know that was his name? Maybe I’m being too critical, but this sort of ruins the whole “Jeremy Bentham” alias sub-plot.

    Similarly, in a recent episode, when Ben gave Sun Jin’s ring, Ben said Locke gave it to him. And Sun said something like, why didn’t Locke give it to me himself. This implies that Locke visited Sun as well. But that wasn’t shown last night. So, did he or didn’t he visit her? And if not, why would she say,”why didn’t Locke give it to me himself?” Again, maybe I’m being too picky, but it seems like the writers are taking some liberties with the overall continuity just for the sake of an individual scene or episode.[/quote]

    I don’t think you are being too picky OR too critical. By know, D&C and the writers KNOW that we LOSTaholics parse every utterance and screencap every frame of film. So, either they are getting CARELESS (which I have a hard time believing) or there is more for us to see.

    But as long as we are picking apart scenes… (this bugged me last week and I forgot to mention it) Ben called Jack and asked him to pick up Locke’s body at “Simon’s Butcher Shop.” We heard EVERY word of BOTH sides of the conversation and neither man mentioned the woman who would be at the butcher shop. Yet, the first words out of Jack’s mouth when the butcher shop door is opened are “Are you Jill?” Now to me, THAT is careless writing, because there is no scene that we didn’t see!

    : ) P

  248. Hammer says:

    I am wondering if Hawking was exiled along with Widmore.

  249. birdwatcher says:

    [quote comment="316556"][quote comment="316548"][quote comment="316541"][quote comment="316540"]

    from lostpedia….

    SAYID: Why do you really need to go back? Is it just because you have nowhere else to go?

    LOCKE: If you change your mind, I’ll be staying under the name “Jeremy Bentham” in L.A. at the Westerfield Hotel[/quote]
    Right, that’s why I didn’t mention Sayid. Nor Kate, because some of that conversation took place off-screen. But for Walt, Hurley, and Jack, we saw the entire conversation. “JB” didn’t come up. How did they know?[/quote]

    ~~~~~

    sorry bout that.. not enough coffee.. yet.

    but, since JB was brought into Jacks hospital, it is/was possible that he had the passport we see in his hotel room under Jins ring with him?

    that would explain how Jack had known his name… who could have told Hurley.

    but Walt??? did Walt ever say Bentham?[/quote]
    __________________________
    Back in the season 4 finale, when Walt went to see Hurley at Santa Rosa, he referred to Bentham. So at that point they supposedly both knew that name.

    Your comment about Jack made me think further about this – probably when Locke was brought to the hospital, the ambulance or hospital staff came across the passport, so they would identify him as Jeremy Bentham.

    But that name wouldn’t mean anything to Jack, if he saw it on some list of the hospital’s patients. So I guess we’re to assume that somehow Jack saw Locke being wheeled around the hospital.

    That would be quite a coincidence, but I suppose that’s what happened. (Like Locke was saying, it was fate). Then, inside Locke’s hospital room Jack either found his passport, or his chart which would have “Jeremy Bentham” on it. So, OK, I’ll take back that part of my critique. But I still don’t see how Hurley and Walt knew the name.[/quote]

    Walt’s knowledge of the alias can be explained by Walt’s special powers. Hurley could have known from his conversation with Walt or from one of the many dead people who tend to visit him on a daily basis. They do seem to tell him things he needs to know…

    The Jill the butcher thing could be careless writing…

  250. Byck says:

    I take back my previous comment. When Sawyer and them found the dugout boats it was at their camp and their camp was there, but abandoned, so they are either in the future or the present. The O6 must have been transported back to the 70’s while the rest were left in the present. Now we know Jack, Kate and Hurly are in the 70’s, but they said that Lapidus and a woman took the first dugout boat already. Maybe Sun wasnt transported back. what happened to Sayid then?

  251. jaime says:

    [quote comment="316363"][quote comment="316359"]
    For logic sake….please….I think that Sun and Sayid are in the same time as Jack. I think Frank took off with someone else.[/quote]

    I agree with you that logically, the O6 would have all jumped to the same time.

    Big reveal, though, was the fact that Widmore remembered something in “photoshopped” history… or at least he pretended he did.

    : ) P[/quote]

    [quote comment="316434"]For all of my adoring fans waiting for my bedtime for Bonzo thought…..ha….I almost go that out without laughing…..I’m an idiot…anyway:

    The Life mag had this at the top: Color Pictures of Hydrogen Test
    Dave Beck, former boss of goons emerges as labor’s new strong man.

    Then as he flips through there is a picture of Creature from the black lagoon carrying a woman.

    Then a Hanes underwear ad.

    The paper he was looking at had circles with lines running between them….some lines said Real Time, some said Space Time and some said Imaginary Time. There was also an Event A and and Event B referenced.[/quote]
    ****************************************************

    Jack, Kate and Hurley flashed to Dharma time. All the people on 316 are in the future. When Ceaser is looking through the Hydra files there is a piece of paper right out of Daniel Faraday’s notebook that he is looking at.

    http://www.docarzt.com/lost/lost-easter-eggs/when-and-where-are-the-316rs/

    What do you think?

  252. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316544"]Also, the producers have already stated its not an alien show (after season 1 or 2 in an interview)… so that theory is out the window. [/quote]

    That may be true, but they also said this show wasn’t about time travel. Some things they say in podcasts are specifically MEANT to throw us off. That said, I don’t think there will be aliens in the explanations.

    : ) P

  253. Hammer says:

    Another pondering thought. Why did they have to tell us about Helen being dead? It started with Abaddon asking Locke if he wanted to find anyone ELSE, then they story ‘went there’…hmmm.

  254. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316562"]Jack, Kate and Hurley flashed to Dharma time. All the people on 316 are in the future. When Ceaser is looking through the Hydra files there is a piece of paper right out of Daniel Faraday’s notebook that he is looking at.

    http://www.docarzt.com/lost/lost-easter-eggs/when-and-where-are-the-316rs/

    What do you think?[/quote]

    Well we know that Daniel always carries that notebook with him when he “travels.” (“If anything happens, Desmond Hume will be my constant” – which reminds me, that might be another reason WHY he knocked on the hatch door and talked to Desmond.)

    So maybe sometime in the 70’s when he has infiltrated DI, he copies that paper into his notebook?

    : ) P

  255. jaime says:

    [quote comment="316468"][quote comment="316452"][quote comment="316434"]For all of my adoring fans waiting for my bedtime for Bonzo thought…..ha….I almost go that out without laughing…..I’m an idiot…anyway:

    The Life mag had this at the top: Color Pictures of Hydrogen Test
    Dave Beck, former boss of goons emerges as labor’s new strong man.

    Then as he flips through there is a picture of Creature from the black lagoon carrying a woman.

    Then a Hanes underwear ad.

    The paper he was looking at had circles with lines running between them….some lines said Real Time, some said Space Time and some said Imaginary Time. There was also an Event A and and Event B referenced.[/quote]
    What station was Caeser in where he found that?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    I don’t know….close enough to walk to from the beach/runway. :)[/quote]
    #################################################

    He was in the Hydra station office

  256. flgrl says:

    [quote comment="316564"]Another pondering thought. Why did they have to tell us about Helen being dead? It started with Abaddon asking Locke if he wanted to find anyone ELSE, then they story ‘went there’…hmmm.[/quote]

    *****

    I think it was to show that John had absolutely no connections to anyone off the island and that now he could let go of those thoughts and focus on what he was meant to do.

  257. duke says:

    [quote comment="316469"][quote comment="316466"][quote comment="316454"]
    He didn’t say that specially. He said something to the effects of he was banished by Ben from the island. This leads me to believe that Penny being somewhere around her mid thirties would have to have been born/conceived on the island since Ben presumaly did not take power until his late teens early twenties.[/quote]
    So you are assuming that she was born on the island and it wasn’t ACTUALLY confirmed. WHEW! I only walked out of the room for a minute and thought I missed that. You know what happens when you assume?[/quote]

    IMO the math kinda makes sense. Penny isn’t that young. No way! Not sure if that is confirmed but even if ben is ten years older than her….still. I wonder when exactly Charles was banished.[/quote]
    Widmore said he was their leader for over 30 years. He was 17 when he met Locke in 1954. If he took leadership within about five years from that point it would have been in 1958-1959. 30 years from this would make it 1988-1989. The purge happened in, I believe, 1992 which would fit the timeline since he said OVER thirty years. Possibly the leader when young Ben met Alpert. Ben helps them purge the Dharma initiative then works to get their leader, who I guess is Widmore, banished so that he can move into that spot. Penny is at least 30 years old which would put her into being conceived and/or born on the island. This is only a guess but the math would make sense.

  258. jaime says:

    [quote comment="316543"][quote comment="316434"]The Life mag had this at the top: Color Pictures of Hydrogen Test
    Dave Beck, former boss of goons emerges as labor’s new strong man.
    [/quote]
    FWIW, he was real and puts the time frame of the mag. in the late 50’s.
    [/quote]
    *******************************************
    The date on the bottom corner of that page reads. “The Awesome Fireball” April 19th 1954

  259. duke says:

    [quote comment="316463"][quote comment="316460"][/quote]
    Walt has been shown to have been special. He shows up to shannon all wet and convinces locke to get out of the dharma pit. It isn’t far fetched that he would know that.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    And yet not know that where his dad is….

    Those appearances were apparitions IMO.[/quote]
    He also, we presume, made the bird fly into the window at his mom’s house and the polar bear appear just after he was reading the comic. He does have some kind of special ability. You have to admit that at least.

  260. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316561"]I take back my previous comment. When Sawyer and them found the dugout boats it was at their camp and their camp was there, but abandoned, so they are either in the future or the present. [/quote]

    I think Sawyer et al were in the future.

    My theory is that the A316 crashed in early 2008. In scenes that have not yet occurred on the air, they will find the abandoned O815’ers camp and use it (and trash it) and leave an Ajira Airways bottle in an outrigger.

    Sawyer et al flash to sometime AFTER that, take one of the outriggers and try to get to the Orchid.

    That doesn’t mean, btw, that the people who were SHOOTING at Sawyer et al were A316’ers. There were THREE outriggers on the little island. The “pilot” and a woman took off in one, leaving two on the little island. Somehow, two outriggers ended up at the camp. They might both have come from the little island, or one might have been the “pilot” and woman’s.

    Sawyer et al took one from the abandoned camp, but the one that was shooting at them didn’t have to be the “other one” from the abandoned camp. Hope that made sense.

    : ) P

  261. Hammer says:

    Oh another one. It seemed like Abaddon was supposed to stop Locke from dying….similar to Des trying to stop Charlie from dying….but….even Abaddon knew that Locke was going back ‘no matter what you did or what you do’…and seemed resigned to knowing that Locke was going to have to die to go back per Alpert.

  262. jaime says:

    [quote comment="316565"][quote comment="316562"]Jack, Kate and Hurley flashed to Dharma time. All the people on 316 are in the future. When Ceaser is looking through the Hydra files there is a piece of paper right out of Daniel Faraday’s notebook that he is looking at.

    http://www.docarzt.com/lost/lost-easter-eggs/when-and-where-are-the-316rs/

    What do you think?[/quote]

    Well we know that Daniel always carries that notebook with him when he “travels.” (“If anything happens, Desmond Hume will be my constant” – which reminds me, that might be another reason WHY he knocked on the hatch door and talked to Desmond.)

    So maybe sometime in the 70’s when he has infiltrated DI, he copies that paper into his notebook?

    : ) P[/quote]
    ******************************************

    Great thought PJ

  263. duke says:

    [quote comment="316467"][quote comment="316454"][quote comment="316450"][quote comment="316446"]
    I also think it was confirmed that Penny was born/conceived on the island. At least in my interpretation of what Widmore said. Also I would guess that Widmore was with Alpert when Ben was younger and somehow involved in the purge because Ben did not take power until after this occurred.[/quote]

    I am not saying that you are wrong, but would like you to please clarify what you mean. When did Widmore say anything about Penny having been born on the island?

    : ) P[/quote]
    He didn’t say that specially. He said something to the effects of he was banished by Ben from the island. This leads me to believe that Penny being somewhere around her mid thirties would have to have been born/conceived on the island since Ben presumaly did not take power until his late teens early twenties.[/quote]

    BEN WAS 30! I also think that is a good catch. Now how could she forget that?[/quote]
    When was it confirmed that Ben was 30. Is then when you think he took over?

  264. jaime says:

    [quote comment="316549"]What about this Ceasar character and the woman with him. He went right to the file cabinet and took materials about the island and found the secreted shot gun. And hid this from the woman. Her name escapes me.

    Yes it is the small island.

    He is one of Widmores plants. Was he the guy at the checkin desk who spoke to Jack and sat in the front section with the 6?[/quote]

    **********************************************

    That’s what i was thinking. He grabs a big ol shotgun and puts it in his bag. Ileana asks him what it was and he hands her the flashlight. Either he is working for someone and has a “mission” or he is feeling the need of protection.

  265. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="316558"]

    But as long as we are picking apart scenes… (this bugged me last week and I forgot to mention it) Ben called Jack and asked him to pick up Locke’s body at “Simon’s Butcher Shop.” We heard EVERY word of BOTH sides of the conversation and neither man mentioned the woman who would be at the butcher shop. Yet, the first words out of Jack’s mouth when the butcher shop door is opened are “Are you Jill?” Now to me, THAT is careless writing, because there is no scene that we didn’t see!

    : ) P[/quote]

    Good call PJ. I’ll have to go back and rewatch that scene too.

    Now, just to show that I’m not always finding fault with the writers, I will say that I really liked the juxtaposition of the scene with Jack and Locke, and the scene with Ben and Locke. First we have Jack telling Locke, “It’s not fate, it’s probability” that brought Locke to Jack’s hospital, and Jack telling Locke “You think you’re special but you’re not”. Then there’s the scene with Ben saying “You don’t know how special you are, John.”

    Also, I liked how John telling Jack about Christian marked the turning point for Jack – at that point he started to become a “man of faith”. Prior to that, any time he had a vision of Christian, he thought he was just imagining it. And every time he and Locke had a conversation about faith in the island, Jack thought Locke was crazy. But after this final conversation, Jack realizes that if John claimed to have seen Christian, and knew his name, that just maybe there was something special about the island. And then he starts flying Oceanic between LA and Sydney (as we learned in the S3 finale, and was then mentioned by Ben last night), hoping to land on the island, and ultimately agrees to work with Ben to get back to the island.

  266. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316570"][quote comment="316463"][quote comment="316460"][/quote]
    Walt has been shown to have been special. He shows up to shannon all wet and convinces locke to get out of the dharma pit. It isn’t far fetched that he would know that.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    And yet not know that where his dad is….

    Those appearances were apparitions IMO.[/quote]
    He also, we presume, made the bird fly into the window at his mom’s house and the polar bear appear just after he was reading the comic. He does have some kind of special ability. You have to admit that at least.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    Yes he does. I beleive it to be telekinesis as opposed to mind reading.

    Telekinesis or PsychokinesisThe influence of mind upon matter, as the use of mental ‘power’ to move or distort an object.

    The Others’ book club reads Carrie, by Stephen King, which is about a teenager with psychokinetic abilities. In “Special”, Walt felt ignored by his mother and stepfatherwhile trying to tell them about an exotic bird he was reading about at the time, and shortly thereafter, a bird of that species flew directly into a nearby window. Walt also has an uncanny ability to affect the roll of his dice in playing backgammon with Hurley, and he perfectly guides the knife to its target when practicing with Locke, simply by envisioning it hitting the target. A polar bear appears after Walt reads Hurley’s comic book, which features a polar bear.

  267. duke says:

    [quote comment="316475"][quote comment="316462"][quote comment="316461"][quote comment="316459"] You seem smarter than that. [/quote]
    Wow…..[/quote]
    That was a compliment or it was meant to be anyway. No offense intended.[/quote]

    * * * * * * *

    Yeah, not so much. That was what is called a back-handed compliment. Whether or not you intended it, that’s how I see it. By saying, “I thought you were smarter than that,” you come across as saying, “I thought you were smart, but BOY was I wrong!”

    Because it is very difficult to “read” people’s intentions, electronic media has the capacity to muddy up the personal space. I try to always add grins *g* or LOL’s to show that what I am saying is intended to be funny or silly. It helps to make up for the lack of facial expressions or voice timbre that is lost in a post.

    : ) P[/quote]
    Thanks. I will keep that in mind. I was just saying that the whole runway idea SEEMS preposterous to me and from what I’ve read from hammer it SEEMS that he is smarter/more inciteful to buy into it. Watch the scene again and tell me Juliet isn’t being overly sarcastic.

  268. duke says:

    [quote comment="316475"][quote comment="316462"][quote comment="316461"][quote comment="316459"] You seem smarter than that. [/quote]
    Wow…..[/quote]
    That was a compliment or it was meant to be anyway. No offense intended.[/quote]

    * * * * * * *

    Yeah, not so much. That was what is called a back-handed compliment. Whether or not you intended it, that’s how I see it. By saying, “I thought you were smarter than that,” you come across as saying, “I thought you were smart, but BOY was I wrong!”

    Because it is very difficult to “read” people’s intentions, electronic media has the capacity to muddy up the personal space. I try to always add grins *g* or LOL’s to show that what I am saying is intended to be funny or silly. It helps to make up for the lack of facial expressions or voice timbre that is lost in a post.

    : ) P[/quote]
    Thanks. I will keep that in mind. I was just saying that the whole runway idea SEEMS preposterous to me and from what I’ve read from hammer it SEEMS that he is smarter/more inciteful to buy into it. Watch the scene again and tell me Juliet isn’t being overly sarcastic. lol.

  269. Mia says:

    Can somebody help me? How did John know about Eloise? Did I miss something?

  270. duke says:

    Anybody have any ideas/incites into the picture Hurley was painting? They seemed to linger on it for sometime which leads me to believe that it meant something. I haven’t come to any conclusions about yet but would love others input.

  271. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316575"]

    **********************************************

    That’s what i was thinking. He grabs a big ol shotgun and puts it in his bag. Ileana asks him what it was and he hands her the flashlight. Either he is working for someone and has a “mission” or he is feeling the need of protection.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    Reminded me of Jack hiding the guns in S1.

  272. shellonius funk says:

    hammer…
    i don’t think there is a makeshift runway YET if they landed there in the [now/new] 70s.

  273. Mia says:

    Also, regarding Penny being born on the island, I wrote this comment in the “316” thread:

    I don’t know if this was discussed before but any thoughts about Penny being on the island in the 70s? I recall it being mentioned that Charles Widmore has been looking for the island for ~20 years. If he found it in 2004, then that would mean he got off the island in ~1984. Therefore he could have been living on the island from ~1954 to ~1984. That would put Penny on the island during that time (since she is obviously older than 20). Does this make sense? Of course Widmore could have been able to leave the island at that time too and have Penny off the island. Maybe we’ll see a young Penny soon as an Other??? Possibly being born?

  274. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="316463"]
    Those appearances were apparitions IMO.[/quote]
    I don’t think those were apparitions/manifestations. Walt was interacting with the other kids coming out of the school. And Abaddon acknowledged that Locke had no luck in trying to get him to go to the island. So I get the sense it was the real Walt.

  275. jaime says:

    [quote comment="316580"]Can somebody help me? How did John know about Eloise? Did I miss something?[/quote]
    *************************************************

    Christian told Locke about her before he turned the wheel

  276. jaime says:

    [quote comment="316581"]Anybody have any ideas/incites into the picture Hurley was painting? They seemed to linger on it for sometime which leads me to believe that it meant something. I haven’t come to any conclusions about yet but would love others input.[/quote]
    *****************************************************

    Egypt, the Sphinx…any past mentions of Egypt in any of the last seasons?

  277. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316579"] Watch the scene again and tell me Juliet isn’t being overly sarcastic. lol.[/quote]
    ____________

    duke, I appreciate the compliment.

    Here is my last attempt to explain why I thought of this theory. The last line that Juliet says it the important one……

    **The Others appeared to be constructing a runway or landing strip on Hydra Island by clearing a straight path of vegetation and rocks. The exact purpose of the runway is unknown; the only thing we have definitively seen it used for is hard labor. Juliet claimed that she did not know the purpose of the runway, but offered one (probably tongue-in-cheek) possibility: (“Through the Looking Glass”)

    “ SAWYER: So, when you pulled us out of those polar bear cages and put us on the chain gang, what the hell you have us breaking all those rocks for anyway?
    JULIET: We were building a runway.
    SAWYER: Runway, for what?
    JULIET: [Turns to him] The aliens.
    [She smirks]
    JULIET: I don’t know what for, do you think they told me everything?

  278. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316587"][quote comment="316581"]Anybody have any ideas/incites into the picture Hurley was painting? They seemed to linger on it for sometime which leads me to believe that it meant something. I haven’t come to any conclusions about yet but would love others input.[/quote]
    *****************************************************

    Egypt, the Sphinx…any past mentions of Egypt in any of the last seasons?[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    All of the hyroglyphs.

  279. jaime says:

    [quote comment="316587"][quote comment="316581"]Anybody have any ideas/incites into the picture Hurley was painting? They seemed to linger on it for sometime which leads me to believe that it meant something. I haven’t come to any conclusions about yet but would love others input.[/quote]
    *****************************************************

    Egypt, the Sphinx…any past mentions of Egypt in any of the last seasons?[/quote]
    ************************************************8

    This scene made me laugh out loud. How funny was it when Hurley said “don’t look but we are being watched” and the immediately John looks over and there’s Abbadon leaning on the car. Very comedic but with a dramatic tone.

  280. duke says:

    [quote comment="316502"]Roads… Where we’re going we don’t need Roads. Or Runways. But I think the runway was being built for flight 316 and whether it was finished or not, I think the plane used it. Maybe they ran off the runway??? Hurley couldn’t have known about every passenger considering he didn’t know about the tailies at the time and what about all of those people still strapped in their seats underwater. Remember when that loser Paulo was looking for the diamonds? I’m so gald he’s dead…[/quote]
    If the plane used the “runway” then it started and ended at the end of it. It was to close to the beach/ocean for the plane to use it. They seemed far away form the beach/ocean when they were working. I am on record as saying they did not finish the runway because they were not building a runway. They only broke rocks for a day or two. You would need a lot more materials and equipment (steamrollers, concrete, concrete truck) to make a runway big enough for a freakin plane especially a plane the size of 316.

  281. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316583"]hammer…
    i don’t think there is a makeshift runway YET if they landed there in the [now/new] 70s.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    True, but I don’t think they landed in the 70’s per earlier conversation.

  282. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316585"][quote comment="316463"]
    Those appearances were apparitions IMO.[/quote]
    I don’t think those were apparitions/manifestations. Walt was interacting with the other kids coming out of the school. And Abaddon acknowledged that Locke had no luck in trying to get him to go to the island. So I get the sense it was the real Walt.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    We were talking about earlier seasons….not last night.

  283. duke says:

    [quote comment="316525"][quote comment="316503"]Let me shed some more light on how I’m thinking….

    I believe about 100 days or so passed for the o6 between the crash of 815 and their rescue, however, in the off island real time line about 3 years passed.

    Maybe the o6 were not supposed to leave because some of them died somewhere between 2001 and 2004 in the real time line off the island. However, on the island time line they were not dead yet because they had not reached the year 2004 yet (remember only 100 days or so had gone by). This would mean that if they left the island and came back to the real time line passed a time when they were supposed to be dead (in this case the year 2004) that would create a time paradox.

    Now they all have to go back to course correct.[/quote]
    I disagree with this. I think enough evidence has been given in past seasons to show that the date on the island (prior to Ben turning FDW) is the same as the date off island. Think of Ben telling Jack the Red Sox won the World Series (which occurred in October 2004), and then Lapidus confirming it. And the news coverage of their rescue didn’t mention 3 years time had elapsed. And the 2004 calendar that was on the freighter. And in “the Constant”, Desmond calls Penny on Dec 24, 2004. And…. I’ll stop there.[/quote]
    Also, the paper that Widmore showed Locke was for January 14th or 24th of 2005. Just to back up what you are saying toeknee.

  284. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316591"][quote comment="316502"]Roads… Where we’re going we don’t need Roads. Or Runways. But I think the runway was being built for flight 316 and whether it was finished or not, I think the plane used it. Maybe they ran off the runway??? Hurley couldn’t have known about every passenger considering he didn’t know about the tailies at the time and what about all of those people still strapped in their seats underwater. Remember when that loser Paulo was looking for the diamonds? I’m so gald he’s dead…[/quote]
    If the plane used the “runway” then it started and ended at the end of it. It was to close to the beach/ocean for the plane to use it. They seemed far away form the beach/ocean when they were working. I am on record as saying they did not finish the runway because they were not building a runway. They only broke rocks for a day or two. You would need a lot more materials and equipment (steamrollers, concrete, concrete truck) to make a runway big enough for a freakin plane especially a plane the size of 316.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    I hear you, but you have assumed that ONLY Sawyer and Kate were building it. I assumed that they were forced to HELP build it. And I will give you that the plane missed it….I’m done with this….I apologize for taking up the space.

  285. duke says:

    [quote comment="316534"]This whole “Jeremy Bentham” thing bothers me. A few comments above mentioned this, like Hammer (177) and PJ (209). We saw the entirety of each conversation Locke had with Walt, Hurley and Jack, and if I remember correctly, not once did Locke refer to himself as Jeremy Bentham, so how did any of them know that was his name? Maybe I’m being too critical, but this sort of ruins the whole “Jeremy Bentham” alias sub-plot.

    Similarly, in a recent episode, when Ben gave Sun Jin’s ring, Ben said Locke gave it to him. And Sun said something like, why didn’t Locke give it to me himself. This implies that Locke visited Sun as well. But that wasn’t shown last night. So, did he or didn’t he visit her? And if not, why would she say,”why didn’t Locke give it to me himself?” Again, maybe I’m being too picky, but it seems like the writers are taking some liberties with the overall continuity just for the sake of an individual scene or episode.[/quote]
    He told Sayid that if he changes his mind he would be staying at some hotel under the Jeremy Bentham. Just pointing out that he did tell someone.

  286. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="316593"][quote comment="316585"][quote comment="316463"]
    Those appearances were apparitions IMO.[/quote]
    I don’t think those were apparitions/manifestations. Walt was interacting with the other kids coming out of the school. And Abaddon acknowledged that Locke had no luck in trying to get him to go to the island. So I get the sense it was the real Walt.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    We were talking about earlier seasons….not last night.[/quote]
    ______________________________
    duh, sorry. I’ll try to keep up…..

  287. jaime says:

    I’ve never been one of the Kate haters but she pissed me off in last nights ep. She was ruthless when she was talking to John. “Look how far you’ve come” Damn

  288. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316591"]If the plane used the “runway” then it started and ended at the end of it. It was to close to the beach/ocean for the plane to use it. They seemed far away form the beach/ocean when they were working. I am on record as saying they did not finish the runway because they were not building a runway. They only broke rocks for a day or two. You would need a lot more materials and equipment (steamrollers, concrete, concrete truck) to make a runway big enough for a freakin plane especially a plane the size of 316.[/quote]

    Kate and Sawyer only broke rocks for a few days. I don’t think that work detail was created JUST for them! There were a LOT of worker bees around during that time. I am not saying that it really was a runway, one way or the other, but I think that if your only reason for thinking it was not is that K&S were only working for a couple of days, there is a flaw in the logic. Fundamentally, I am in the group that believes there are very FEW “throwaway” lines in this show. If that runway wasn’t meant for A316, it was meant to be used at SOME TIME.

    I think Juliet’s sarcasm was rooted in, “I don’t know, Bub, they don’t tell me much more than they tell you!” I forgot about the alien comment. Oh gees, maybe there IS an alien factor in this whole thing! LOL.

    : ) P

  289. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316568"]
    Widmore said he was their leader for over 30 years. He was 17 when he met Locke in 1954. If he took leadership within about five years from that point it would have been in 1958-1959. 30 years from this would make it 1988-1989. The purge happened in, I believe, 1992 which would fit the timeline since he said OVER thirty years. Possibly the leader when young Ben met Alpert. Ben helps them purge the Dharma initiative then works to get their leader, who I guess is Widmore, banished so that he can move into that spot. Penny is at least 30 years old which would put her into being conceived and/or born on the island. This is only a guess but the math would make sense.[/quote]
    Yes, the math would make sense. Then you are assuming he NEVER left the island. When was it stated that the leader couldn’t leave the island? If you believe Widmore is Dharma, don’t you think he would have a hand in building the Lamp Post?

  290. duke says:

    [quote comment="316547"][quote comment="316544"]Here’s what I got out of the episode, and Im pretty sure this is how its going to play out as well:

    Everyone on the plane is flashed back to early Dharma time sometime in the 70’s. That would explain the long canoe type boats on the shore. The Aijyrians and Ben and all them probably take the boats to the main island. The water bottle that was found in the boats on the shore of the main island earlier this season had Aijyrian writing on it (from the plane), so we know that they are all in the 70’s (cuz thats about when they were when the losties found those boats previously). Now I’m assuming that everyone (the losties) that was on the island after Locke turned the wheel is stuck in the 70’s, and we know they are there for 3 years in outside time… so who knows how long theyve been there in island time… but obviously long enough for Faraday and Jin to infiltrate Dharma and get jobs.
    [/quote]
    Sorry but I have a hole to poke in this one.

    There are SEVERAL time flashES that happened AFTER they were shot at in the dugout boat…and then they ended up in the 70’s after several more violent time flashes that ended up killing Charlotte. Those boats with the water bottle are most definately not in the 70’s.[/quote]
    I agree Hammer. They found the boats at their trashed camp which would not have been in the 70’s.

  291. Hammer says:

    I take it back….I’m not done.

    I don’t know how to link a picture so:

    Go to lostpedia and search ‘Runway’….scroll down to the birdseye view of the runway from the deleted scene from the S3 DVD.

    Kind looks a little (A LOT) like the scene last night with a plane laying right next to it.

  292. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316596"]

    He told Sayid that if he changes his mind he would be staying at some hotel under the Jeremy Bentham. Just pointing out that he did tell someone.[/quote]
    Comment 235. Can we please not have a repeat of last week where the book question was answered at least 5 times. The first rule of the blog, listed below:

    Read all comments before commenting. If something has already been said, there is no need to say it again.

  293. flgrl says:

    [quote comment="316589"][quote comment="316587"][quote comment="316581"]Anybody have any ideas/incites into the picture Hurley was painting? They seemed to linger on it for sometime which leads me to believe that it meant something. I haven’t come to any conclusions about yet but would love others input.[/quote]
    *****************************************************

    Egypt, the Sphinx…any past mentions of Egypt in any of the last seasons?[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    All of the hyroglyphs.[/quote]

    ******

    Also, if we’re jumping on the alien stuff – there has always been discussions that the pyramids et al, were created by aliens. Plus, Tunisia isn’t terribly far from Egypt.

  294. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="316596"][quote comment="316534"]This whole “Jeremy Bentham” thing bothers me. A few comments above mentioned this, like Hammer (177) and PJ (209). We saw the entirety of each conversation Locke had with Walt, Hurley and Jack, and if I remember correctly, not once did Locke refer to himself as Jeremy Bentham, so how did any of them know that was his name? Maybe I’m being too critical, but this sort of ruins the whole “Jeremy Bentham” alias sub-plot.

    Similarly, in a recent episode, when Ben gave Sun Jin’s ring, Ben said Locke gave it to him. And Sun said something like, why didn’t Locke give it to me himself. This implies that Locke visited Sun as well. But that wasn’t shown last night. So, did he or didn’t he visit her? And if not, why would she say,”why didn’t Locke give it to me himself?” Again, maybe I’m being too picky, but it seems like the writers are taking some liberties with the overall continuity just for the sake of an individual scene or episode.[/quote]
    He told Sayid that if he changes his mind he would be staying at some hotel under the Jeremy Bentham. Just pointing out that he did tell someone.[/quote]
    ________________________________
    Agreed – see comments 235/236. Also, reluctantly, I kinda sorta took back my complaint that Jack shouldn’t have known that name (in #247)

  295. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316581"]Anybody have any ideas/incites into the picture Hurley was painting? They seemed to linger on it for sometime which leads me to believe that it meant something. I haven’t come to any conclusions about yet but would love others input.[/quote]

    See Tasha’s comment 210.

    I think Tasha has a good point. The most famous of Sphinx statues, the Great Sphinx, is supine. Less common are the upright Sphinx carvings. Our four-toed statue might be what’s left of one.

    See this:

    : ) P

  296. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316602"]I take it back….I’m not done.

    I don’t know how to link a picture so:

    Go to lostpedia and search ‘Runway’….scroll down to the birdseye view of the runway from the deleted scene from the S3 DVD.

    Kind looks a little (A LOT) like the scene last night with a plane laying right next to it.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Also, if in fact the runway was not complete. One might deduce that is why the plane is laying next to it…for that reason. :)

  297. Abaddon says:

    Hear me out people….. i thot at first that all the O6 were in the 70’s, but then i thot about how that woman (caesers partner) mentioned that the pilot and a woman took off in one of those boats. i have reason to believe that it was lapidus and sun in that boat because as far as we know, they’re the only 2 who have been on the island b4 and they know each other. maybe sun came all this way just to be separated from jin by 30 years. Another theory i had was that Widmore came to visit hurley and told him that he needed to be on that plane. finally, i think that when our “friend” ben, who has been doing everything to “keep our friends safe”, isnt speaking about Jack during his little speech at the church about ST Thomas. i think Jack believes in Locke now because of what he said about his father and needs no further proof that Locke is special. i think Ben still refuses to believe Locke is more special than he is and that he is destined to rule the island not john. he already tried to kill john once and failed, this time he actually killed Locke and now thinks that Lockes time is up. when ben wakes up and sees Locke… he will be truly astonished as well as angry but he’ll hide it underneath his creepy Benness. more later

  298. duke says:

    [quote comment="316595"][quote comment="316591"][quote comment="316502"]Roads… Where we’re going we don’t need Roads. Or Runways. But I think the runway was being built for flight 316 and whether it was finished or not, I think the plane used it. Maybe they ran off the runway??? Hurley couldn’t have known about every passenger considering he didn’t know about the tailies at the time and what about all of those people still strapped in their seats underwater. Remember when that loser Paulo was looking for the diamonds? I’m so gald he’s dead…[/quote]
    If the plane used the “runway” then it started and ended at the end of it. It was to close to the beach/ocean for the plane to use it. They seemed far away form the beach/ocean when they were working. I am on record as saying they did not finish the runway because they were not building a runway. They only broke rocks for a day or two. You would need a lot more materials and equipment (steamrollers, concrete, concrete truck) to make a runway big enough for a freakin plane especially a plane the size of 316.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    I hear you, but you have assumed that ONLY Sawyer and Kate were building it. I assumed that they were forced to HELP build it. And I will give you that the plane missed it….I’m done with this….I apologize for taking up the space.[/quote]
    I am done too. But it sure is a good time. Passionate people on here.

  299. duke says:

    [quote comment="316600"][quote comment="316568"]
    Widmore said he was their leader for over 30 years. He was 17 when he met Locke in 1954. If he took leadership within about five years from that point it would have been in 1958-1959. 30 years from this would make it 1988-1989. The purge happened in, I believe, 1992 which would fit the timeline since he said OVER thirty years. Possibly the leader when young Ben met Alpert. Ben helps them purge the Dharma initiative then works to get their leader, who I guess is Widmore, banished so that he can move into that spot. Penny is at least 30 years old which would put her into being conceived and/or born on the island. This is only a guess but the math would make sense.[/quote]
    Yes, the math would make sense. Then you are assuming he NEVER left the island. When was it stated that the leader couldn’t leave the island? If you believe Widmore is Dharma, don’t you think he would have a hand in building the Lamp Post?[/quote]
    I am not saying widmore is dharma. he was working with Alpert in the 1950’s.

  300. Skweez says:

    [quote comment="316558"][quote comment="316534"]We saw the entirety of each conversation Locke had with Walt, Hurley and Jack, and if I remember correctly, not once did Locke refer to himself as Jeremy Bentham, so how did any of them know that was his name? Maybe I’m being too critical, but this sort of ruins the whole “Jeremy Bentham” alias sub-plot.

    Similarly, in a recent episode, when Ben gave Sun Jin’s ring, Ben said Locke gave it to him. And Sun said something like, why didn’t Locke give it to me himself. This implies that Locke visited Sun as well. But that wasn’t shown last night. So, did he or didn’t he visit her? And if not, why would she say,”why didn’t Locke give it to me himself?” Again, maybe I’m being too picky, but it seems like the writers are taking some liberties with the overall continuity just for the sake of an individual scene or episode.[/quote]

    I don’t think you are being too picky OR too critical. By know, D&C and the writers KNOW that we LOSTaholics parse every utterance and screencap every frame of film. So, either they are getting CARELESS (which I have a hard time believing) or there is more for us to see.

    But as long as we are picking apart scenes… (this bugged me last week and I forgot to mention it) Ben called Jack and asked him to pick up Locke’s body at “Simon’s Butcher Shop.” We heard EVERY word of BOTH sides of the conversation and neither man mentioned the woman who would be at the butcher shop. Yet, the first words out of Jack’s mouth when the butcher shop door is opened are “Are you Jill?” Now to me, THAT is careless writing, because there is no scene that we didn’t see!

    : ) P[/quote]

    ********************

    PJ, I was going to write the same thing. I thought it was odd that no one commented about this last week. Definitely some continuity issues.

  301. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316611"][quote comment="316600"][quote comment="316568"]
    Widmore said he was their leader for over 30 years. He was 17 when he met Locke in 1954. If he took leadership within about five years from that point it would have been in 1958-1959. 30 years from this would make it 1988-1989. The purge happened in, I believe, 1992 which would fit the timeline since he said OVER thirty years. Possibly the leader when young Ben met Alpert. Ben helps them purge the Dharma initiative then works to get their leader, who I guess is Widmore, banished so that he can move into that spot. Penny is at least 30 years old which would put her into being conceived and/or born on the island. This is only a guess but the math would make sense.[/quote]
    Yes, the math would make sense. Then you are assuming he NEVER left the island. When was it stated that the leader couldn’t leave the island? If you believe Widmore is Dharma, don’t you think he would have a hand in building the Lamp Post?[/quote]
    I am not saying widmore is dharma. he was working with Alpert in the 1950’s.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    There is no doubt that Widmore is connected to DHARMA. It’s possible that DHARMA was originally independent of Widmore and used the Lamp Post to find the island, then needed funding to get there and that’s when Widmore became the financier….win, win.

  302. ESB says:

    i for one really liked last night’s episode. no questions but a few comments:

    1-while he seemed somewhat stronger in last nights episode, i STILL think Locke is just a pawn…

    2-i STILL think Ben is a BAD guy and now i think he actually was just using the O6 to get back on the island…he knew the only way he could back to the island was to be on the same plane…and i’m not sure why he killed Locke, but i don’t think he was going to until Locke mentioned Ms. Hawking…either way, we can now add to Ben’s list of ‘good deeds’ killing Abbaddon (shooting him in the back no less)and then killing him, Killing Locke and the very real possibility that he has killed Penny and/or baby Charlie also…haha -yeah, this guy is a SAINT…;)

    3-i disagree with an earlier post that said this episode wasn’t good and not necessary…i for one have always wanted to know what Locke was up to as Jeremy Bentham

    sorry for any repeated ideas or comments in my post…i got to 150-something and wanted to type out my thoughts…will read the rest of the posts throughout the day…;)

  303. Skweez says:

    When Locke and Widmore had the conversation about Widmore sending a freighter full of mercs to kill everyone on the island, Widmore said that he had to remove Ben. He wanted to do this in order for the “right” side to win the war. I don’t think this was referring to the purge. I think there may be a third party, military maybe, that will be joining the party.

  304. Abaddon says:

    Hammer
    Comment 302, posted 7 minutes ago – Quote and reply
    There is no doubt that Widmore is connected to DHARMA. It’s possible that DHARMA was originally independent of Widmore and used the Lamp Post to find the island, then needed funding to get there and that’s when Widmore became the financier….win, win.
    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????
    Hammer if there was a pro lost blog league, u toeknee and old Pjsander would be the elite. but i have one question for u….. with u saying he became their financier, i have one issue, if Widmore were telling the truth about ruling the island for 3 decades and our friend Dukes timeline interpretation is correct, Widmore would have been ordering the “hostiles” attacks on the Dharma. second, if he were funding the DI which he was attacking from the island, y would he allow the purge?

  305. ESB says:

    one more thought – i know everybody here thinks Widmore is the real bad guy here, and i KNOW he’s no saint…(breaking his other-buddy’s neck, the whole Keamy thing) and he probably will turn out to be the bad guy in the end…but ponder this…the person who keeps saying Widmore is the big baddy is Ben…and Ben lies about EVERYTHING…hmm…;)

  306. Skweez says:

    [quote comment="316613"][quote comment="316611"][quote comment="316600"][quote comment="316568"]
    Widmore said he was their leader for over 30 years. He was 17 when he met Locke in 1954. If he took leadership within about five years from that point it would have been in 1958-1959. 30 years from this would make it 1988-1989. The purge happened in, I believe, 1992 which would fit the timeline since he said OVER thirty years. Possibly the leader when young Ben met Alpert. Ben helps them purge the Dharma initiative then works to get their leader, who I guess is Widmore, banished so that he can move into that spot. Penny is at least 30 years old which would put her into being conceived and/or born on the island. This is only a guess but the math would make sense.[/quote]
    Yes, the math would make sense. Then you are assuming he NEVER left the island. When was it stated that the leader couldn’t leave the island? If you believe Widmore is Dharma, don’t you think he would have a hand in building the Lamp Post?[/quote]
    I am not saying widmore is dharma. he was working with Alpert in the 1950’s.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    There is no doubt that Widmore is connected to DHARMA. It’s possible that DHARMA was originally independent of Widmore and used the Lamp Post to find the island, then needed funding to get there and that’s when Widmore became the financier….win, win.[/quote]

    **************************

    Hammer, if Widmore is the Dharma financier, why didn’t he know about the lamp post? And if he did know about the lamp post, why would he be looking for the island for 20 years?

  307. duke says:

    [quote comment="316613"][quote comment="316611"][quote comment="316600"][quote comment="316568"]
    Widmore said he was their leader for over 30 years. He was 17 when he met Locke in 1954. If he took leadership within about five years from that point it would have been in 1958-1959. 30 years from this would make it 1988-1989. The purge happened in, I believe, 1992 which would fit the timeline since he said OVER thirty years. Possibly the leader when young Ben met Alpert. Ben helps them purge the Dharma initiative then works to get their leader, who I guess is Widmore, banished so that he can move into that spot. Penny is at least 30 years old which would put her into being conceived and/or born on the island. This is only a guess but the math would make sense.[/quote]
    Yes, the math would make sense. Then you are assuming he NEVER left the island. When was it stated that the leader couldn’t leave the island? If you believe Widmore is Dharma, don’t you think he would have a hand in building the Lamp Post?[/quote]
    I am not saying widmore is dharma. he was working with Alpert in the 1950’s.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    There is no doubt that Widmore is connected to DHARMA. It’s possible that DHARMA was originally independent of Widmore and used the Lamp Post to find the island, then needed funding to get there and that’s when Widmore became the financier….win, win.[/quote]
    Widmore was working with Alpert (ie the others). John called them this and he said they weren’t others to him they were his people. I cannot recall any metion of a connection to Dharma.

  308. Flyer says:

    [quote comment="316536"][quote comment="316363"]

    Big reveal, though, was the fact that Widmore remembered something in “photoshopped” history… or at least he pretended he did.

    : ) P[/quote]
    I don’t think that was a “photoshopped” memory. I think John Locke’s encounter with the young Widmore in 1954 always happened, and Widmore has always remembered it. If what Abaddon said is true, and Widmore did send Abaddon to tell Locke about the walkabout, Widmore has been keeping tabs on Locke since at least 2004, and quite likely since before then.[/quote]

    *********

    No offense taken about the earlier posts shooting down my theories Toeknee. I am here to engage in conversation so I think it is good that you disagreed, but please expand.

    If there are no multiple timelines than how do you explain the above quote. How could Locke appear in his adult body back in 1954 to Widmore before he was even born and then you are saying that it was not a ‘photoshopped’ memory? In other words Widmore has remembered this all along? Something is not adding up.

  309. duke says:

    Post 308 continued. I said he DID leave the island but it wasn’t until much later than everyone has speculated about. he was their leader for over thirty years. I took this to mean that he was not the leader in 1954, took post sometime after this and lead for 30 some odd years. He left the island between 1988-1992. I would guess closer to 1992.

  310. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316616"]Hammer
    Comment 302, posted 7 minutes ago – Quote and reply
    There is no doubt that Widmore is connected to DHARMA. It’s possible that DHARMA was originally independent of Widmore and used the Lamp Post to find the island, then needed funding to get there and that’s when Widmore became the financier….win, win.
    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????
    Hammer if there was a pro lost blog league, u toeknee and old Pjsander would be the elite. but i have one question for u….. with u saying he became their financier, i have one issue, if Widmore were telling the truth about ruling the island for 3 decades and our friend Dukes timeline interpretation is correct, Widmore would have been ordering the “hostiles” attacks on the Dharma. second, if he were funding the DI which he was attacking from the island, y would he allow the purge?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    I’m sure about time lines, especially now that we have time travel. But we know for certain that Widmore and Paik financed DHARMA at some point. He may have been anti DHARMA until his exile, then used them to try to get back, then Ben’s group succeeded with the purge (that doesn’t mean the Widmore allowed it).

    Or, maybe the ‘him’ that exiled Widmore wasn’t Ben…maybe ‘him’ is Jacob…and used DHARMA to get back to island until the purge happened?

  311. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316618"]Hammer, if Widmore is the Dharma financier, why didn’t he know about the lamp post? And if he did know about the lamp post, why would he be looking for the island for 20 years?[/quote]

    I don’t have an opinion about Widmore being the bucks behind DHARMA, but it is possible that Widmore has financed DHARMA and still doesn’t know about the Lamppost.

    If DHARMA were the “other side” when Widmore was on the island, the Widmore would have been “against” the DI while on the island. Perhaps when he is exiled, he figures out that the best way BACK to the island is to work with “the enemy” which is DHARMA and the best way in the door is with his wallet. If the Lamppost was created while he was still on the island, it may be that the DI takes his money without giving him all the information.

    We still need to figure out where Ellie/Mrs. Hawking fits in to all of this.

    I like the idea that a third party is coming and that Ben and Widmore may have to unite against a common enemy.

    : ) P

  312. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316621"]Post 308 continued. I said he DID leave the island but it wasn’t until much later than everyone has speculated about. he was their leader for over thirty years. I took this to mean that he was not the leader in 1954, took post sometime after this and lead for 30 some odd years. He left the island between 1988-1992. I would guess closer to 1992.[/quote]

    Perhaps Widmore was exiled because he was against the idea of the purge?

    : ) P

  313. duke says:

    [quote comment="316622"][quote comment="316616"]Hammer
    Comment 302, posted 7 minutes ago – Quote and reply
    There is no doubt that Widmore is connected to DHARMA. It’s possible that DHARMA was originally independent of Widmore and used the Lamp Post to find the island, then needed funding to get there and that’s when Widmore became the financier….win, win.
    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????
    Hammer if there was a pro lost blog league, u toeknee and old Pjsander would be the elite. but i have one question for u….. with u saying he became their financier, i have one issue, if Widmore were telling the truth about ruling the island for 3 decades and our friend Dukes timeline interpretation is correct, Widmore would have been ordering the “hostiles” attacks on the Dharma. second, if he were funding the DI which he was attacking from the island, y would he allow the purge?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    I’m sure about time lines, especially now that we have time travel. But we know for certain that Widmore and Paik financed DHARMA at some point. He may have been anti DHARMA until his exile, then used them to try to get back, then Ben’s group succeeded with the purge (that doesn’t mean the Widmore allowed it).

    Or, maybe the ‘him’ that exiled Widmore wasn’t Ben…maybe ‘him’ is Jacob…and used DHARMA to get back to island until the purge happened?[/quote]
    How do we know that Widmore and Paik financied Dharma? I do not recall any mention of this and I know that if it is out there Hammer will be able to prove it to me. But I would fall into Widmore financing them when he returned from the island because I presume that they were there when he was exiled. Therefore, believing that he knew he could try to use them to get back since they found it once.

  314. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316619"] John called them this and he said they weren’t others to him they were his people. I cannot recall any metion of a connection to Dharma.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Here are the connections:

    Bad TwinThe novel “Bad Twin” heavily features the Widmore family, with private investigator Paul Artisan hired to find Zander Widmore by his twin brother Cliff Widmore. The book at times mentions some interesting facts about the company, as well as its connections to The Hanso Foundation and Paik Heavy Industries.

    The Hanso Foundation is an organization founded by Alvar Hanso, aiming to “reach out to a better tomorrow” by researching ways to preserve human life and promote well-being. It was established approximately around the 1960s, with Alvar oddly moving from a successful background in munitions selling and weapons armament to becoming a philanthropic entrepreneur. Among other projects, the Foundation also financed the DHARMA Initiative.

    In the ARG The Lost Experience, Paik Heavy Industries had a sinister connection to the Hanso Foundation.

    Sooooo, Widmore = DHARMA.

  315. birdwatcher says:

    Doesn’t it seem like Widmore did know about the lamp post? He gave Desmond the address to the church Eloise Hawking was at. Did he just think she was hanging out at the church? He must have known it was there. I wonder if he knew about the lamp post – how was he looking for the island – or maybe the lamppost is how he was looking for it and because of the “windows” the next one to open wasn’t until 2004?

  316. Flyer says:

    [quote comment="316525"][quote comment="316503"]Let me shed some more light on how I’m thinking….

    I believe about 100 days or so passed for the o6 between the crash of 815 and their rescue, however, in the off island real time line about 3 years passed.

    Maybe the o6 were not supposed to leave because some of them died somewhere between 2001 and 2004 in the real time line off the island. However, on the island time line they were not dead yet because they had not reached the year 2004 yet (remember only 100 days or so had gone by). This would mean that if they left the island and came back to the real time line passed a time when they were supposed to be dead (in this case the year 2004) that would create a time paradox.

    Now they all have to go back to course correct.[/quote]
    I disagree with this. I think enough evidence has been given in past seasons to show that the date on the island (prior to Ben turning FDW) is the same as the date off island. Think of Ben telling Jack the Red Sox won the World Series (which occurred in October 2004), and then Lapidus confirming it. And the news coverage of their rescue didn’t mention 3 years time had elapsed. And the 2004 calendar that was on the freighter. And in “the Constant”, Desmond calls Penny on Dec 24, 2004. And…. I’ll stop there.[/quote]

    I respectfully disagree. They have never shown the date on the island. They only say how many days have passed since the crash. If they were marooned on the island for only about 100 days than how is it that the rest of the world is in 2004? The freighter left the real world so ofcourse the calendar would reflect the real world date. Ben knows and told Jack that the Red Sox won because Ben has been off the island and back. That does not mean that island time is the same as real world time. They were rescued in 2004 and they crashed in 2001 that would be about 3 years, or do you disagree with the dates of the crash and rescue? Desmond calls Penny thinking he is in another time. He only recognizes that it is 2004 by looking at the calendar and his flashes.

    Contrary to what you have said I believe that the opposite has been shown with time. I believe Faraday has shown numerous times that island time is not in synch with the rest of the world… the rocket experiment, the dead doctor washing up on the shore, and the time difference for islanders vs. Desmond and Sayid on the helicopter getting to the freighter.

    Either their are multiple timelines or time can loop like the time loop theory.

  317. Mia says:

    I noticed a discrepancy, whether intentional or not…..In the scene where Ben talks to Jack at the funeral home, Ben asked Jack if Locke visited him and asked him if Locke told him that Ben was off the island. Jack responded yes (and that was about a month ago). In last night’s episode, their conversation did not include anything about Ben. And we saw the entire scene. Maybe Locke visited Jack again? Maybe Jack was lying to Ben? Maybe this was an error on the writer’s part – which I highly doubt…

  318. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316624"][quote comment="316621"]Post 308 continued. I said he DID leave the island but it wasn’t until much later than everyone has speculated about. he was their leader for over thirty years. I took this to mean that he was not the leader in 1954, took post sometime after this and lead for 30 some odd years. He left the island between 1988-1992. I would guess closer to 1992.[/quote]

    Perhaps Widmore was exiled because he was against the idea of the purge?

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    There’s a good thought.

  319. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="316628"]

    They were rescued in 2004 and they crashed in 2001 that would be about 3 years, or do you disagree with the dates of the crash and rescue?

    [/quote]
    Yes, I disagree with this. The date of the crash is Sept 22, 2004. I believe that was more or less proven in Season 3, the episode where Juliet was trying to get Ben to let her leave the island, and Ben showed Juliet video of her sister and nephew. That video included a newspaper with that date on it.

  320. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316628"]They were rescued in 2004 and they crashed in 2001 that would be about 3 years, or do you disagree with the dates of the crash and rescue? [/quote]

    Nope. The Oceanic crash was 9/22/2004 – same day as the series premiered.

    : ) P

  321. Flyer says:

    [quote comment="316539"][quote comment="316503"]Let me shed some more light on how I’m thinking….[/quote]

    You either drank lots of coffee before all of those posts, or you’re a night owl. Either way, all these theories are making my head ache.

    The most interesting of your theories is that Jack flashed to the scene of the original crash. Hmmm…[/quote]

    *************

    night owl…lol

  322. Halliwax says:

    Flyer,

    The crash happened in 2004 not 2001

  323. Mia says:

    Duke, I still think Widmore left the island around 1984 based on Mile’s comment to Charlotte that Widmore has been looking for the island for around 20 years. If he found it in 2004, that would mean he left around 1984 and was looking for it since.

    Has it ever been stated when the purge took place?

  324. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="316620"][quote comment="316536"][quote comment="316363"]

    Big reveal, though, was the fact that Widmore remembered something in “photoshopped” history… or at least he pretended he did.

    : ) P[/quote]
    I don’t think that was a “photoshopped” memory. I think John Locke’s encounter with the young Widmore in 1954 always happened, and Widmore has always remembered it. If what Abaddon said is true, and Widmore did send Abaddon to tell Locke about the walkabout, Widmore has been keeping tabs on Locke since at least 2004, and quite likely since before then.[/quote]

    *********

    No offense taken about the earlier posts shooting down my theories Toeknee. I am here to engage in conversation so I think it is good that you disagreed, but please expand.

    If there are no multiple timelines than how do you explain the above quote. How could Locke appear in his adult body back in 1954 to Widmore before he was even born and then you are saying that it was not a ‘photoshopped’ memory? In other words Widmore has remembered this all along? Something is not adding up.[/quote]
    ______________________________
    I’m going by what I believe we have been told by Faraday, Ms. Hawking, and D&C over the last year or so. There is only one timeline, and you cannot change history. When Locke appeared in his adult body in 1954, he was time travelling. And there was never a version of 1954 where the 2004 Locke did not show up for a few hours and meet Richard and Widmore. It always happened. He didn’t change history. So ever since then, that event would be part of Widmore’s memory.

    There was a lot of discussion about this in the threads for the last few episodes that you could read, if you’re masochistic, I mean interested.

  325. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316302"][quote comment="316292"] Remember we did see him snap the neck of his “army” buddy when that guy agreed to take Locke et al to their camp.[/quote]
    Yes, and isn’t he responsible for the killing of Ben’s “daughter”. At least that is what Ben thinks.[/quote]

    ************************************

    one could argue that Ben is just as responsible for Alex getting killed as Widmore…but i tend to think that Keamy would’ve killed her either way, so my guess is that Keamy is more responsible for that then Widmore or Ben…

  326. pete says:

    well here we go again few answers more questions.first; ben and widmore dont like each other so if hawking knows widmore well enough for him to have her address why would she tolerate ben in the church?and why wouldent he get on that plane to go to the island.second; widmore told locke in tunsia (modern day carthage)he was the leader of the others but when we saw him meet locke richard seemed more the leader.

  327. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316352"]Before you all get excited. I think John killing himself would ban him from being leader. Ben had to kill him….[/quote]

    ****************************************

    even if this is true, there are certainly ‘nicer’ ways to kill somebody, haha ;)

  328. pete says:

    third;ben was kissing lockes ass untill he found about hawking then he changed and killed him.fourth;does ben know locke will be ressurected and take it out on him.fifth;sixth ;seventh so many questions so few episodes left

  329. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316639"][quote comment="316352"]Before you all get excited. I think John killing himself would ban him from being leader. Ben had to kill him….[/quote]

    ****************************************

    even if this is true, there are certainly ‘nicer’ ways to kill somebody, haha ;)[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Agreed…but waves are rocking the boat again…Ben bad…Ben good…Ben bad…

  330. Mia says:

    How about this – Widmore is playing everyone. He knows Ben is going follow Locke and Abbadon (killing Abbadon was too easy). He knows Ben will kill Locke. He knows Ben will go find Eloise. He’s using Locke and Ben to get all O6 back. Why? Maybe he wants Ben to go back to keep Penny safe. Maybe he needs Locke and the O6 back to do some course correction to help him control the island again? This show is driving me nuts!

  331. Abaddon says:

    okay…. now that i’ve strung up a large debate, im gonna take a side step to much different theory. This theory i speak of is about our Hydrogen Bomb. Nuclear bombs (in this case the “Jughead” H-Bomb) give off massive waves of electromagnetic energy when detonated. Obviously the others took Faradays warning to heart so they burried said bomb im guessing about 1 to 200 feet below the ground or however far the swan was underneath. our friends from the DI knew that the island had extraordinary concentrations of electromagnetic energy so big that the miss use of such proportions could cause massive damage. So, I believe the DI were setting up a station similar to the orchid where the swan was. whether thats what they were doing or not its irrelevant because when they were digging they found our unstable bomb. The DI reburried it in reinforced concrete and even put those steel bars over that concrete space to further prevent someone to even think about digging through there. Finally im getting to my point. When the DI hit the bomb, more and more electromagnetic energy was drawn into the bomb making the bomb that much more destructive. The DI had to quickly come up with a system to prevent more electromagnetic energy build up with or around the bomb which we see is our computer that needs to enter 4 8 15 16 23 42 every 108 minutes. if said computer is not pushed,All the electromagnetic energy on the island (btw, the island is special because of it immense electromagnetic energy) will be drawn to the bomb and once its all there the H- Bomb which is already big enough to wipe out the island no sweat, will be amplified to a destruction level that could essentially destroy the world. But we have our fail safe which i think would release all the energy from the bomb, rendering the bomb completely inert, but also kill anyone within the immediate area because the energy release and radiation discharge from the bomb. I have no doubt that was hard to follow but if u do understand then you will see that this lofty theory is possible…..More later.

  332. Mike says:

    Kate has been a real jerk the last two episodes. First with refusing that jack even mention aaron (which was even worse considering they started making out after jack consented),then with giving Locke all that lip about being a loser which is why he wants to go back. Poor Locke, everyone seems to be against or manipulating him (who knows about whitmore)(just like the kids dream about being surrounded by people that wanted to hurt him).

  333. Abaddon says:

    #
    [Unread Comment]
    Mia
    Comment 331, posted 1 minute ago – Quote and reply

    How about this – Widmore is playing everyone. He knows Ben is going follow Locke and Abbadon (killing Abbadon was too easy). He knows Ben will kill Locke. He knows Ben will go find Eloise. He’s using Locke and Ben to get all O6 back. Why? Maybe he wants Ben to go back to keep Penny safe. Maybe he needs Locke and the O6 back to do some course correction to help him control the island again? This show is driving me nuts!
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I think if he knew what Ben was doing, he would have immediately sent some of his goons to follow desmonde back to penny to make sure that she is safe. He knows what ben is up to but if he knew that penny was going with Des to where Ben was he would never let Ben get close to Penny

  334. pete says:

    where is mittlewerk and this virus, is this bens off island connection and the imminent war to come

  335. pete says:

    where is mittlewerk and this virus, is this bens off island connection and the imminent war to come

  336. pete says:

    wondering where mittlewerk and the virus are is this bens connection off island? SADDENED THE HANSO SITE HAS NOT BEEN UPDATED

  337. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316490"]How did Walt know Locke’s alias? He never told him he had one and he called him John several times during the conversation……just saying.[/quote]

    What do you mean Walt knows John only as John why would he refer to him as another name??? Also I am going with not a runway. It looked like the plane was surrounded by a buncha trees. ANYWAY WTF IS BEN GOOD OR BAD!?!?[/quote]

    **************************************

    haha, well let’s see…he’s murdered a whole bunch of people and manipulates every one he can and lies every time he opens his mouth…oh and let’s not forget that he had all the children from flight 815 kidnapped…oh yeah, and kept Juliette on the island against her will for what, 3 years longer than she wanted to be there…then there’s the whole ‘who cares?’ when asked about the possible deaths of everyone on the freighter and everyone on 316…and having a lawyer threaten to take Aaron away from Kate…hmmm, sure sounds like a good guy to me…;)

    haha, we might all have to face that there might not be any real good guys on this show…;)

  338. Flyer says:

    [quote comment="316631"][quote comment="316628"]

    They were rescued in 2004 and they crashed in 2001 that would be about 3 years, or do you disagree with the dates of the crash and rescue?

    [/quote]
    Yes, I disagree with this. The date of the crash is Sept 22, 2004. I believe that was more or less proven in Season 3, the episode where Juliet was trying to get Ben to let her leave the island, and Ben showed Juliet video of her sister and nephew. That video included a newspaper with that date on it.[/quote]

    **********

    Thank you Toeknee. I was wrong on the date of the crash and you are 100% correct. I still think that time on the island is different than time in the real world as per the rocket, washed up doctor from freighter, and the time it takes the heli to fly to the freighter from the islanders perspective and from those on the heli.

    According to those events time on the island is either slower or delayed and detached from time in the real world.

    Maybe time on the island has become detached from real world time due to some side effect of the necessary course corrections that have been referenced by Hawking. Daniel has also said that it was ‘getting worse’. Maybe the war has to happen, a course correction of sort, and if not successfull then some dire consequences will occur for time.

  339. ShelbyDee says:

    [quote comment="316487"][quote comment="316486"]It was for the aliens! See for yourself!! LOL. J/K

    http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/57c52403c7c0cf85be68044fe99eff58%5B/quote%5D

    ++++++++++++++++=
    I’m pretty sure that it’s not an alien, but the Creature From The Black Lagoon. It’s a sea monster.[/quote]

    ===================
    If I remember the casting correctly, in the book club episode where the older woman knocks on Juliet’s door and they briefly discuss the inability of Ethan to fix the plumbing… that woman was the actress that the Creature from the Black Lagoon is carrying. It’s a great inside joke/circular reference if my memory holds up.

  340. Flyer says:

    [quote comment="316636"][quote comment="316620"][quote comment="316536"][quote comment="316363"]

    Big reveal, though, was the fact that Widmore remembered something in “photoshopped” history… or at least he pretended he did.

    : ) P[/quote]
    I don’t think that was a “photoshopped” memory. I think John Locke’s encounter with the young Widmore in 1954 always happened, and Widmore has always remembered it. If what Abaddon said is true, and Widmore did send Abaddon to tell Locke about the walkabout, Widmore has been keeping tabs on Locke since at least 2004, and quite likely since before then.[/quote]

    *********

    No offense taken about the earlier posts shooting down my theories Toeknee. I am here to engage in conversation so I think it is good that you disagreed, but please expand.

    If there are no multiple timelines than how do you explain the above quote. How could Locke appear in his adult body back in 1954 to Widmore before he was even born and then you are saying that it was not a ‘photoshopped’ memory? In other words Widmore has remembered this all along? Something is not adding up.[/quote]
    ______________________________
    I’m going by what I believe we have been told by Faraday, Ms. Hawking, and D&C over the last year or so. There is only one timeline, and you cannot change history. When Locke appeared in his adult body in 1954, he was time travelling. And there was never a version of 1954 where the 2004 Locke did not show up for a few hours and meet Richard and Widmore. It always happened. He didn’t change history. So ever since then, that event would be part of Widmore’s memory.

    There was a lot of discussion about this in the threads for the last few episodes that you could read, if you’re masochistic, I mean interested.[/quote]

    *************************

    How could Locke show up before he was born. That would be a time paradox and I specificly remember D&C saying that they were not going to have time paradoxes…I am confused?

  341. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316456"][quote comment="316451"]+++++++++++++++++
    When I rewatched the scene, they are walking down….what looks like to me….the unfinished runway just to the left of the plane….there is no doubt in my mind that is the runway they were trying to build.[/quote]
    Let go of the runway idea. They never finished it. They only worked a couple of days and the the stuff with Ben’s surgery and Jack getting them set free took place. You have to let go of this Hammer.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Ummmmm….no.[/quote]

    ********************************

    not to mention, there is no way for anyone to know if they finished it or not…we have no idea how close they were to finishing it or not, and if they kept on working on it after the whole Jack/Ben/Sawyer/Kate/Juliette stuff…i’m not saying necessarily that i believe it was a runway, i’ll wait until i watch it again without the distraction of a 2 1/2 year old…but there are absolutely no proof one way or the other that the runway was or was not completed…it also might be that the word runway was being used loosely and that they just cleared some space similar to a runway because someone knew a plane was going to crash-land…we just don’t really know yet, do we?

  342. JenA says:

    I’m sorry if this has been mentioned, there are just too many posts to read through.

    If Widmore left the island around 1984 (30 years from when he met Locke in “Jughead” episode)and he met a women and they conceived a child. That would make Penny less than 20 years old at the time of the Oceanic crash in 2004. There is no way that Penny is only 20 at that time. Lospedia does not have a brithdate for her. So does this mean that Penny was born on the island. Or I suppose she could be adopted or a step daughter of Widmore. I guess that would be the convenient answer.

  343. Circus Mom says:

    Widmore said Ben tricked him off the island but when he said I was exilied by HIM I thought he meant Jacob or Christion, not Ben. Locke said “Ben wasn’t there when I left.” Ben also turned the wheele the first time so Locke could stay.

    This epi lead us to Widmore good, Ben bad but I think we were being manipulated.

  344. Circus Mom says:

    PJ, I think Widmore remembers meeting Locke in 1952 because it happened to Locke in 3004 and he mentions it in 2007. Still fits with the photoshop theory.

  345. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316657"][quote comment="316456"][quote comment="316451"]+++++++++++++++++
    When I rewatched the scene, they are walking down….what looks like to me….the unfinished runway just to the left of the plane….there is no doubt in my mind that is the runway they were trying to build.[/quote]
    Let go of the runway idea. They never finished it. They only worked a couple of days and the the stuff with Ben’s surgery and Jack getting them set free took place. You have to let go of this Hammer.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Ummmmm….no.[/quote]

    ********************************

    not to mention, there is no way for anyone to know if they finished it or not…we have no idea how close they were to finishing it or not, and if they kept on working on it after the whole Jack/Ben/Sawyer/Kate/Juliette stuff…i’m not saying necessarily that i believe it was a runway, i’ll wait until i watch it again without the distraction of a 2 1/2 year old…but there are absolutely no proof one way or the other that the runway was or was not completed…it also might be that the word runway was being used loosely and that they just cleared some space similar to a runway because someone knew a plane was going to crash-land…we just don’t really know yet, do we?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    Yeah, I’m not hung up on it being finished. But feel strongly that it was being built for this purpose…finished or not…and looking at the photo I mentioned earlier and comparing it to the scene with the plane….same place…IMO.

  346. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="316655"]
    If I remember the casting correctly, in the book club episode where the older woman knocks on Juliet’s door and they briefly discuss the inability of Ethan to fix the plumbing… that woman was the actress that the Creature from the Black Lagoon is carrying. It’s a great inside joke/circular reference if my memory holds up.[/quote]
    Really!? That’s a pretty cool little tidbit of trivia!

  347. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="316427"][quote comment="316419"][quote comment="316414"]
    Ben knows that in order to get back to the island, he has to follow Ms. Hawkings rules, which include Locke going back. But he also knows that if you disobey Jacob, you fall out of favor with him. I think Ben is trying to prove to Jacob that he’s still the chosen one. Or at the very least, show Alpert that he can’t be “ousted”. I think he knows how bad Alpert wants Locke to be the leader.[/quote]

    I don’t think Jacob would reconcile with Ben. Ben has done something to make Jacob a captive in that cabin. That’s why Locke examined that dust that was around the cabin, I think that has something to do with Jacob’s restriction. Also Jacob did ask Locke to “Help me!” Then Ben made his first attempt to murder Locke.[/quote]

    ************************

    Good point. If Ben has been able to keep Jacob captive some kind of way, maybe Jacob is a non issue. Ben just wants to do things his way. He’s a selfish, sociapathic, killer. I don’t like Ben, I don’t like Locke and I wish someone would off Hurley! Whew! It felt good to get that out![/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    If anything happens to Hurley I’m blaming you! LOL

  348. Mike says:

    Benjamin…Judas…Hmmmm

  349. Mia says:

    If Widmore has been watching the O6 to make sure they are safe, then who did that girl that Sayid was hooking up with (that tried to kill him) work for? She actually tried to kill him with bullets unlike the men later on with Hurley who used darts. Who’s good who’s bad? Who to believe? I like how someone said on a previous post that it would be nice if we could just always take what’s being said as the truth!

  350. duke says:

    [quote comment="316626"][quote comment="316619"] John called them this and he said they weren’t others to him they were his people. I cannot recall any metion of a connection to Dharma.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Here are the connections:

    Bad TwinThe novel “Bad Twin” heavily features the Widmore family, with private investigator Paul Artisan hired to find Zander Widmore by his twin brother Cliff Widmore. The book at times mentions some interesting facts about the company, as well as its connections to The Hanso Foundation and Paik Heavy Industries.

    The Hanso Foundation is an organization founded by Alvar Hanso, aiming to “reach out to a better tomorrow” by researching ways to preserve human life and promote well-being. It was established approximately around the 1960s, with Alvar oddly moving from a successful background in munitions selling and weapons armament to becoming a philanthropic entrepreneur. Among other projects, the Foundation also financed the DHARMA Initiative.

    In the ARG The Lost Experience, Paik Heavy Industries had a sinister connection to the Hanso Foundation.

    Sooooo, Widmore = DHARMA.[/quote]
    Thanks for the info……but if we are to believe that Widmore led the others, which he stated they were his people not Dharma but the others, for over thirty years you would have to think he did notr take over until sometime after 1954 when he was 17years old. If he too over say in 1957 and led them (the others) for over 30 years the earliest he could have been exiled would be 1987. Which falls into the my notion that Penny was conceived and/or born on the island. Also Widmore would have known about Dharma because he was on the island at the time they began their work but they may not have necessarily been aware of him (others being sneaky and knowing the island so well able to hide. Therefore, he built up his wealth and used the Dharma Initiative to assist him in finding/getting back to the island. This is all based on believing in what Widmore said to Locke last night and doing the math.

  351. Fara-dayo says:

    Hey, I had to leave the episode for a bit and I completely missed something.

    How did Locke know about Eloise Hawking? Thank you for the answer in advance someone.

  352. duke says:

    [quote comment="316631"][quote comment="316628"]

    They were rescued in 2004 and they crashed in 2001 that would be about 3 years, or do you disagree with the dates of the crash and rescue?

    [/quote]
    Yes, I disagree with this. The date of the crash is Sept 22, 2004. I believe that was more or less proven in Season 3, the episode where Juliet was trying to get Ben to let her leave the island, and Ben showed Juliet video of her sister and nephew. That video included a newspaper with that date on it.[/quote]
    As I stated before Widmore shows Locke a newspaper with the date January 14 or 24th 2005. They crashed in Sept. and were rescued in January. Desmond phoned his constant on Christmas eve 2004. If my math is correct they would have crashed the chopper about January 8th and made it back to the news conference about a week later so the paper probably was dated january 14th.

  353. duke says:

    continue post 353………..they probably spent a day or two on Penny’s boat then made it to the shore we have seen and contacted some people who made the transport back on the cargo plane. Why would you think they crashed in 2001? Flyer

  354. Flyboy says:

    I think some of the religion and philosophy stuff is meant to throw us off course and detract us from the real deal. I think we are missing a big piece. The space time continuum is skipping, flashing or whatever else you want to call it (multiple timelines, time loops, etc). The space time continuum problems are getting worse as Daniel has referenced before. Is all this distraction about good and evil, or who is who in this ‘war’ really just a diversion. Could it be that neither side is good or evil and simply put both sides just want to manipulate the island for their own purposes. The real problem is that while all this bickering and war stuff is going on, everyone including the audience and the losties are missing the point. The space time continuum may be heading towards a tear that could end the universe as we know it. Maybe that is why Faraday is there in the first place.
    Maybe Hawking knows something about this also. I think all the course corrections are causing the time on the island and in the real world to keep escalating towards being further and further apart from each other and ultimately if that is not fixed then it could completely tear apart.

  355. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316660"]PJ, I think Widmore remembers meeting Locke in 1952 because it happened to Locke in 3004 and he mentions it in 2007. Still fits with the photoshop theory.[/quote]

    Assuming that 3004 is a typo *bg* and not that you are talking about time traveling nearly a thousand years into the future…

    BRILLIANT! Widmore SAYS he remembers him as if he remembered him from 1954, but he had a “new” memory very recently, just as Desmond had the “new” memory of Daniel three years later. That said, the “photoshop” memory theory holds. Yay!

    : ) P

  356. Mia says:

    I think Widmore’s took over as leader of the others shortly after Locke and company flashed to 1954. I think Ellie probably told him about Daniel’s comment on “time travel” and used that as a catalyst somehow (?) to become leader (especially with Daniel and company disappearing in front of everyone’s eyes).

  357. duke says:

    [quote comment="316635"]Duke, I still think Widmore left the island around 1984 based on Mile’s comment to Charlotte that Widmore has been looking for the island for around 20 years. If he found it in 2004, that would mean he left around 1984 and was looking for it since.

    Has it ever been stated when the purge took place?[/quote]
    The purge had to take place in 1988 or early 1989. Ben stole Alex shortly after she was born and Rous was way preggers when we saw her a few episodes back. If what Widmore said was true it was apparent that he was not in charge in 1954. Richard was. Him becoming leader at 17 years old seems awfully early to me so I added a few (3 to 4) years I will give it to you that he could have left earlier than what I have stated but I did not take what Mile’s said to be an EXACT amount of time. Like when you say it’s 2:30 but the actual time is 2:25. Even if he left as early as 1984-1985 Penny would still have been conceived/born on the island.

  358. Flyboy says:

    [quote comment="316670"][quote comment="316631"][quote comment="316628"]

    They were rescued in 2004 and they crashed in 2001 that would be about 3 years, or do you disagree with the dates of the crash and rescue?

    [/quote]
    Yes, I disagree with this. The date of the crash is Sept 22, 2004. I believe that was more or less proven in Season 3, the episode where Juliet was trying to get Ben to let her leave the island, and Ben showed Juliet video of her sister and nephew. That video included a newspaper with that date on it.[/quote]
    As I stated before Widmore shows Locke a newspaper with the date January 14 or 24th 2005. They crashed in Sept. and were rescued in January. Desmond phoned his constant on Christmas eve 2004. If my math is correct they would have crashed the chopper about January 8th and made it back to the news conference about a week later so the paper probably was dated january 14th.[/quote]

    ********

    Sorry that was a brain fart about 2001. I already admitted I was wrong about 2001 on a previous post. But that does not change the fact that time differences between island time and real time exist. Reference the Faraday rocket, freighter doctor washing up on beach before he actually died, and the time it took the heli to travel from the island to the freighter.

    Faraday has also said after the doctor washed up on the beach that it is getting ‘worse’.

  359. Mia says:

    JenA – see comment 274

  360. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316667"]Thanks for the info……but if we are to believe that Widmore led the others, which he stated they were his people not Dharma but the others, for over thirty years you would have to think he did notr take over until sometime after 1954 when he was 17years old. If he too over say in 1957 and led them (the others) for over 30 years the earliest he could have been exiled would be 1987. Which falls into the my notion that Penny was conceived and/or born on the island. Also Widmore would have known about Dharma because he was on the island at the time they began their work but they may not have necessarily been aware of him (others being sneaky and knowing the island so well able to hide. Therefore, he built up his wealth and used the Dharma Initiative to assist him in finding/getting back to the island. This is all based on believing in what Widmore said to Locke last night and doing the math.[/quote]
    WIDMORE: Because that’s the exit. I was afraid Benjamin might fool you into leaving the Island, like he did with me. I was their leader.
    +++++++++++++++++

    Okay, he said he was their leader AND he said ‘we’ protected the islan for 30 years…he didn’t say he was the leader for 30 years…he may have just been a leader for part of that 30 years.

    WIDMORE: Because that’s the exit. I was afraid Benjamin might fool you into leaving the Island, like he did with me. I was their leader.

    LOCKE: The Others?

    WIDMORE: They’re not the “Others” to me. They’re my people. We protected the island peacefully for more than three decades. But then I was exiled by him… just as you were.

  361. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316591"][quote comment="316502"]Roads… Where we’re going we don’t need Roads. Or Runways. But I think the runway was being built for flight 316 and whether it was finished or not, I think the plane used it. Maybe they ran off the runway??? Hurley couldn’t have known about every passenger considering he didn’t know about the tailies at the time and what about all of those people still strapped in their seats underwater. Remember when that loser Paulo was looking for the diamonds? I’m so gald he’s dead…[/quote]
    If the plane used the “runway” then it started and ended at the end of it. It was to close to the beach/ocean for the plane to use it. They seemed far away form the beach/ocean when they were working. I am on record as saying they did not finish the runway because they were not building a runway. They only broke rocks for a day or two. You would need a lot more materials and equipment (steamrollers, concrete, concrete truck) to make a runway big enough for a freakin plane especially a plane the size of 316.[/quote]

    *****************************

    i actually think i agree with you but two points about your logic…

    1- Kate and Sawyer only worked on it for a few days…we have no idea how long anyone else may have been working on it…before or after we were ‘told’ about it…

    2- we also have no idea if Juliette/the others were using the word ‘runway’ literally or figuratively….were they trying to build an actual Airport specification runway? or just clear some space for an easier crash landing? did they know that the plane was going to be a big one? if it was never completed, how much did they complete? we don’t know the answers to any of these questions…

    like i said, i probably agree with you Duke, but i don’t necessarily agree with the logic your using…and i do agree with Hammer, that i think that word was used for a reason…;)

  362. shellonius funk says:

    hammer…and friends….

    if they didn’t land in the 70s (as suggested by jin/dharma), when did they land?

    i confess…i’m only on comment 170.

  363. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316682"]hammer…and friends….

    if they didn’t land in the 70s (as suggested by jin/dharma), when did they land?

    i confess…i’m only on comment 170.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    Jack, Kate, Hugo time travelled off the plane to the 70’s. The plane landed on the Hydra in a different time (maybe…and likely the present island time).

  364. Miraks says:

    Here are my two cents;
    1. Gotta go with the no run-way side. I think Juliette was being sarcastic when she mentioned it.

    2. Agree that Widmore said he helped protect the island for over 30 years, NOT that he was the leader for 30 years. My guess would be he left the island when he was about 30. That would make it about 1970- just in time to send Dharma there a year or two later.

    3. I agree with those who think Widmore was NOT talking about Ben, bit Alpert or Jacob when he said “he” tricked him into leaving.

    4. Ben killing Locke does not make him a bad guy. Locke HAD to die. Ben just post-poned his death by five minutes by intervening in the first place. I found it interesting that he did kill him though RIGHT AFTER Locke mentioned Hawkin- the “you can’t change what is meant to happen” advocate. I’m pretty sure she would have told Ben “you can save him from killing himself, but he still has to die”.

  365. duke says:

    [quote comment="316678"][quote comment="316670"][quote comment="316631"][quote comment="316628"]

    They were rescued in 2004 and they crashed in 2001 that would be about 3 years, or do you disagree with the dates of the crash and rescue?

    [/quote]
    Yes, I disagree with this. The date of the crash is Sept 22, 2004. I believe that was more or less proven in Season 3, the episode where Juliet was trying to get Ben to let her leave the island, and Ben showed Juliet video of her sister and nephew. That video included a newspaper with that date on it.[/quote]
    As I stated before Widmore shows Locke a newspaper with the date January 14 or 24th 2005. They crashed in Sept. and were rescued in January. Desmond phoned his constant on Christmas eve 2004. If my math is correct they would have crashed the chopper about January 8th and made it back to the news conference about a week later so the paper probably was dated january 14th.[/quote]

    ********

    Sorry that was a brain fart about 2001. I already admitted I was wrong about 2001 on a previous post. But that does not change the fact that time differences between island time and real time exist. Reference the Faraday rocket, freighter doctor washing up on beach before he actually died, and the time it took the heli to travel from the island to the freighter.

    Faraday has also said after the doctor washed up on the beach that it is getting ‘worse’.[/quote]
    There are obvious time differences. O6 being gone 3 years and the look on Locke’s face because it hadn’t been nearly that long for him. Only 4 days since he travelled to 1954 to meet Widmore so the whole time they were skipping could only have been between 4-7 days. This means that I was right about the amount of time varying between flashers and O6.

  366. shellonius funk says:

    nevermind…i’m gettin’ there :-)

  367. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316684"]
    4. Ben killing Locke does not make him a bad guy. [/quote]

    ******************************************

    haha, i agree…i think that everything Ben has done in addition to killing Locke makes him a bad dude…at least i know i wouldn’t feel very safe hanging out with him…;)

    this is probably a little off base, but if you believe in the ‘symbolism’ of the show and the ‘symbolic acts’ that are committed by the characters to give some insite into the people that they are…then forget for a moment that it is Abaddon and Widmore that we are talking about and think about this:

    Ben shoots -in the back- and kills a man on last nights episode while that man is putting a wheel chair into the trunk of a car…i think the writers may have been trying to say something about the kind of man Ben is by the ‘symbolism’ of this act…at the very least it suggests he’s a coward of the first order..;) i also wonder why Ben would choose that particular time to kill Abaddon…could it be to keep Abaddon from telling Locke something else about Helen and the circumstances surrounding her death? hmm, who knows…i’m just thinking out loud…;)

  368. PJSander says:

    From LOSTpedia:

    The exact year that Purge occurred was not mentioned during Ben’s flashback in “The Man Behind the Curtain”; however, Horace Goodspeed told Locke in a dream that he had been dead for twelve years. Assuming that this is correct, it places the Purge in 1992.

    : ) P

  369. ESB says:

    haha, if Ben is supposed to be a good guy, i think i might be rooting for the bad guys…

    regardless, the actor (Michael Emerson, i think) is a genius…;)

  370. shellonius funk says:

    what if they plane landed after ’88 [rousseau's arrival] and before the purge ['92] and all of our oceanic folks are actually on the same time line?

    i’m thinking that the runway was active back in the day and just became overgrown, needing the LOSTies to fix it up in ’04.

    the screen cap from season 3’s deleted scenes shows the runway as a dirt strip….no rocks…and there were clearly rocks on it last night.

  371. i need answers says:

    I would assume that all of the O6 flashed out of the plane…this includes Frank because he was just as exposed to this time travel situation as anyone else…making the copilot have to make a emergency landing on an unfinished runway on the small island…copilot could quite possible be Widmore or some other plant…Jacks Gramps..lol…if you watch the scene where Jack wants to talk to the pilot-Frank…when frank comes out of the cockpit he is very cautious not to show us the room..he kind of slivers out and shuts the door…Maybe Widmore and Elle got exiled from the island together..maybe she was pregnant with Faraday..or even Penny!?…im reachin now…Ben is without a doubt power hungry and bad….ps..any thoughts on when Vincent pops up again…I bet hes comin soon..haha

  372. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316690"]what if they plane landed after ’88 [rousseau's arrival] and before the purge ['92] and all of our oceanic folks are actually on the same time line?

    i’m thinking that the runway was active back in the day and just became overgrown, needing the LOSTies to fix it up in ’04.

    the screen cap from season 3’s deleted scenes shows the runway as a dirt strip….no rocks…and there were clearly rocks on it last night.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    I wonder….if they are all on the same time now…why did they get flashed out of the plane?

    Love your runway idea. ;)

  373. Mia says:

    Yes Duke, I think we both agree Penny must have been born on the island. And yes, Rousseau arrived in 1988. If the purge happened in 1992 (based on PJs post from LOSTpedia) then where was Rousseau during the purge? I recall this being mentioned on a previous thread. And who led the Others after Widmore left and prior to Ben (post purge)? Also, since the mothers are so willing to leave their children (Claire, Sun, Kate)….I bet Rousseau leaves or gives up Alex rather than Alex being taken from her as it has been thought.

  374. Flyboy says:

    [quote comment="316685"][quote comment="316678"][quote comment="316670"][quote comment="316631"][quote comment="316628"]

    They were rescued in 2004 and they crashed in 2001 that would be about 3 years, or do you disagree with the dates of the crash and rescue?

    [/quote]
    Yes, I disagree with this. The date of the crash is Sept 22, 2004. I believe that was more or less proven in Season 3, the episode where Juliet was trying to get Ben to let her leave the island, and Ben showed Juliet video of her sister and nephew. That video included a newspaper with that date on it.[/quote]
    As I stated before Widmore shows Locke a newspaper with the date January 14 or 24th 2005. They crashed in Sept. and were rescued in January. Desmond phoned his constant on Christmas eve 2004. If my math is correct they would have crashed the chopper about January 8th and made it back to the news conference about a week later so the paper probably was dated january 14th.[/quote]

    ********

    Sorry that was a brain fart about 2001. I already admitted I was wrong about 2001 on a previous post. But that does not change the fact that time differences between island time and real time exist. Reference the Faraday rocket, freighter doctor washing up on beach before he actually died, and the time it took the heli to travel from the island to the freighter.

    Faraday has also said after the doctor washed up on the beach that it is getting ‘worse’.[/quote]
    There are obvious time differences. O6 being gone 3 years and the look on Locke’s face because it hadn’t been nearly that long for him. Only 4 days since he travelled to 1954 to meet Widmore so the whole time they were skipping could only have been between 4-7 days. This means that I was right about the amount of time varying between flashers and O6.[/quote]

    *********************************

    Thank you I agree 100%. Reference post 355 to see what my theory is.

  375. jaime says:

    [quote comment="316668"]Hey, I had to leave the episode for a bit and I completely missed something.

    How did Locke know about Eloise Hawking? Thank you for the answer in advance someone.[/quote]
    *************************************************8
    Comment 276

  376. shellonius funk says:

    what if sayid and sun are on the hydra? what if sun was the lady who took of with the pilot?

    that’s it…i gotta watch it again…even if i AM at work… :-p

  377. 4815162342 says:

    [quote comment="316534"]This whole “Jeremy Bentham” thing bothers me. A few comments above mentioned this, like Hammer (177) and PJ (209). We saw the entirety of each conversation Locke had with Walt, Hurley and Jack, and if I remember correctly, not once did Locke refer to himself as Jeremy Bentham, so how did any of them know that was his name? Maybe I’m being too critical, but this sort of ruins the whole “Jeremy Bentham” alias sub-plot.

    Similarly, in a recent episode, when Ben gave Sun Jin’s ring, Ben said Locke gave it to him. And Sun said something like, why didn’t Locke give it to me himself. This implies that Locke visited Sun as well. But that wasn’t shown last night. So, did he or didn’t he visit her? And if not, why would she say,”why didn’t Locke give it to me himself?” Again, maybe I’m being too picky, but it seems like the writers are taking some liberties with the overall continuity just for the sake of an individual scene or episode.

    Perhaps, Sun was asking, “Why didn’t he come see me, and give me the ring.” Ben answers “I don’t know.” Ben knows the reason is because he killed Locke before he got the chance.

    As far as the Bentham name. He told Sayid his alias. Jack would have that information from his hospital chart from the identification he would have on him. Hurley seemed unsure of his name when he asked Sayid, and then said “I need to get a cool spy name.”

  378. Miraks says:

    If we are realy going to harp on small issues…
    As far as Hurley knowing that John was using the name Jeremy Bentham, I’m sure there was a sign-in sheet for visitors at the facility he was at. He could have looked at it afterwards..?

  379. Mia says:

    There is definitely a time gap between when we saw Locke and Jack at the hospital and when Locke actually died. Something happened during that time that will fill in some holes. Jack did tell Ben at the funeral home that it was a month ago that he saw John. Wonder what happened during that time – we have yet to see…

  380. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316696"]what if sayid and sun are on the hydra? what if sun was the lady who took of with the pilot?

    that’s it…i gotta watch it again…even if i AM at work… :-p[/quote]

    *************************

    i had kind of assumed that ‘the pilot took off with some lady’ meant Lapidus and Sun, going to the big island to look for Jin and the missing O6…;)

  381. FFam5 says:

    [quote comment="316698"]If we are realy going to harp on small issues…
    As far as Hurley knowing that John was using the name Jeremy Bentham, I’m sure there was a sign-in sheet for visitors at the facility he was at. He could have looked at it afterwards..?[/quote]

    ***

    Didn’t JB/JL have a Vistor Tag on when he saw Hurley?

  382. Mia says:

    >>JACK: Did you know that Locke killed himself?

    >>BEN: No. No, I didn’t.

    Ben wasn’t lying (technically) – he did not know Locke killed himself because he killed him!

    But I still wonder why Jack was surprised when he was told by Eloise that Locke committed suicide. Sayid knew that Locke did (based on his conversation with Hurley). How did Sayid know?

  383. ShelbyDee says:

    [quote comment="316691"][quote comment="316690"]what if they plane landed after ’88 [rousseau's arrival] and before the purge ['92] and all of our oceanic folks are actually on the same time line?

    i’m thinking that the runway was active back in the day and just became overgrown, needing the LOSTies to fix it up in ’04.

    the screen cap from season 3’s deleted scenes shows the runway as a dirt strip….no rocks…and there were clearly rocks on it last night.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    I wonder….if they are all on the same time now…why did they get flashed out of the plane?

    Love your runway idea. ;)[/quote]

    +++++++++++++++
    This is also confusing me. I assumed watching it last night that the entire plane was back in the 1970s. Thinking about it now, the Hydra did appear to be in some disuse and during the 70s it would have been up and running. In any case, assuming I’m wrong (and I always do) if the survivors separated in time with the O6 going to the 70s and the other survivors staying in present time, why wouldn’t Frank and Locke have moved with Kate/Hurley/Jack? Miles and Charlotte stayed with Sawyer & Co during all of their time jumps. It just seems they are all on the same ride. I can see Ben not being part of the club; he wasn’t exactly invited and I think he’s sneaking in on the coattails of the O6 who had to go back.

    I digress a bit – you asked why they would flash out if there is no difference in the time they landed in. Maybe the island is ensuring their survival, or placing them geographically where they need to be. Some people have suggested that Jack may have flashed out of the Oceanic flight since he had no memory of crashing – why him and no one else then? Same reason now?

    Speaking of being placed geographically – how did Jin know they were there? If the plane is on the other island, and the Dharma people saw the crash, shouldn’t they be over there?

    I loved this episode, but I’m really confused.

    And I’ll commit myself: I think Ben is supremely evil. The look he gave Locke when he found out Jin was alive told me that Ben now knew how to get Sun – on his own. The reveal about Hawking told Ben that someone else was figuring out the problem of how to get back. His work was now done for him. He didn’t need Locke any more and could eliminate the threat. I don’t think he was helping Locke to meet his destiny. I think he was brutal. Locke’s death also gave him an opportunity to be a hero by finishing Locke’s work. Something I suspect Hawking was willing to believe. To Locke “I’ll really miss you.” Only because Locke was so easy to manipulate. Locke has been the gift that keeps on giving for Ben. It’s clear Ben wants the island, but can anyone say why? It seems like he and Widmore want it for the same reason – to protect it? to control it?

    And who killed Sayid’s wife? Why Widmore? I’m rambling now.

  384. Skweez says:

    Ben knows that Jacob/Christian would have told Locke how to get back to the island. After watching the episode again, it seems that Ben was going to “help” recruit the O6 in an effort to find out how to get back to the island. I don’t think Ben expected to find out so soon and once he had that info, he decided, the suicide thing looked like a good way to cover it up.

  385. Frank says:

    Ben killed Locke because he is the “devil” and he doesn’t want to be replaced by a moral character on the island…Ben said “I’ll miss you” which IMO means that he meant to kill him thinking he’ll be gone forever…I bet Ben will be surprised when he awakens and Locke is there

  386. BaileyLovesLost says:

    I agree with Hammer on the runway thing. Remember in Season 4, Miles, Charlotte and Daniel asked Lapidus where the helicopter crashed and Lapidus said he landed it, not crashed it because he is a good pilot? I don’t think the plane crashed, I think it landed and I think it landed on a runway.

  387. jaime says:

    [quote comment="316698"]If we are realy going to harp on small issues…
    As far as Hurley knowing that John was using the name Jeremy Bentham, I’m sure there was a sign-in sheet for visitors at the facility he was at. He could have looked at it afterwards..?[/quote]
    ***************************************************

    When Locke sat down with Hurley he was wearing a name tag that said Jeremy Bentham

  388. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316710"]I agree with Hammer on the runway thing. Remember in Season 4, Miles, Charlotte and Daniel asked Lapidus where the helicopter crashed and Lapidus said he landed it, not crashed it because he is a good pilot? I don’t think the plane crashed, I think it landed and I think it landed on a runway.[/quote]

    Here’s the thing… we just DON’T KNOW! For all we know, there is a secret DHARMA runway bridge that comes up out of the water when a plane approaches from the right direction and is due to fly on the right heading through the “window” at the right time. This special secret bridge then goes back down under the water after the plane lands safely. If Frank “knows” more than he say he does, he might have been LOOKING for it!

    Sound ridiculous? So do smoke monsters, polar bears in the jungle, time traveling, consciousness traveling, taller “ghost” Walt, whisperers, Others, not one but possibly two secret societies of people who are outwardly trying to better the world but may have nefarious gains in mind, a slave ship in the middle of the jungle, a button that requires being pushed once every 108 minutes, two people from two different continents, who share not only a secret father but the EXACT same plane ride, a set of six numbers that show up in three different places in the same man’s life, and fifty odd people who rarely use the bathroom, never talk about crazy things that happen to them, never fight over the last pair of sunglasses, never shave any parts of their body and never got sunburned over the course of more than 100 days.

    While I enjoy disecting plot lines and comparing theories, I think we have to accept that there comes a point when we have to suspend belief for some of the ideas. Because when it gets right down to it, I don’t know that ANYONE should have survived the O815 crash in the FIRST place!

    : ) P

  389. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="316706"]Ben knows that Jacob/Christian would have told Locke how to get back to the island. After watching the episode again, it seems that Ben was going to “help” recruit the O6 in an effort to find out how to get back to the island. I don’t think Ben expected to find out so soon and once he had that info, he decided, the suicide thing looked like a good way to cover it up.[/quote]
    Ben also knows that Locke was told that EVERYONE has to return and would have taken the island/ Jacob/ Alpert by their word. Ben follows what the island wants/ needs to the “t” and does not modify based on his own whims. But Locke, in typical Locke fashion, had already decide that he would not bother with trying to get Sun. Yes, I believe that once Ben heard about Hawkins he realized there was a way back to the island without the help of Locke, BUT I also think that he knew that the only way to get all 06 back was if he could act without Locke’s interference. IT IS BEN who gets everyone on the plane (whether they are there willingly or not), something I don’t think Locke would have ever accomplished. Even if he had worked with Ben, Locke would have been all against getting Sun and/ or forcing people on.
    PS: I know we have not seen Aaron on the plane, but I’m pretty sure he’ll turn up pretty quickly.

  390. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316705"]Ben killed Locke because he is the “devil” and he doesn’t want to be replaced by a moral character on the island…Ben said “I’ll miss you” which IMO means that he meant to kill him thinking he’ll be gone forever…I bet Ben will be surprised when he awakens and Locke is there[/quote]

    ************************************

    yes, i agree with this…;)

  391. jaime says:

    [quote comment="316696"]what if sayid and sun are on the hydra? what if sun was the lady who took of with the pilot?

    that’s it…i gotta watch it again…even if i AM at work… :-p[/quote]
    *********************************************

    I think Sun is for sure “the lady” that’s with Frank. Could it be possible that she has fallen out of favor with the island by “working” with Widmore and there for her journey back to Jin with not be quick and easy. She must work for it and redeem herself. It may be her reason for not flashing back with Kate, Jack, and Hurley. What would be Sayids reasons though. Maybe simply because he was handcuffed to Illana.

  392. sector7 says:

    Why the hell does it matter who is right about whether they landed on the freaking runway or not? It’s bad enough I have to read 400 posts, 1 day after the dang show. I wish Ben would come kill me right now.

  393. sector7 says:

    As far as Hurley knowing John was going by Bentham: There was a scene with Hurley and Sayid where Hurley says “Why are you calling him Bentham?” So whether Hurley knew prior to that is irrelevant. Sayid spelled it out for him.

  394. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316742"]Why the hell does it matter who is right about whether they landed on the freaking runway or not? It’s bad enough I have to read 400 posts, 1 day after the dang show. I wish Ben would come kill me right now.[/quote]

    *****************************

    haha, GREAT point…it’s just something to talk about…but when you get down to it why the hell does any of it matter enough to discuss? ;)

  395. Christie says:

    1) I don’t think anyone has mentioned this, but I think Sayid was in the background near the campfire when Locke is first confronted by Caesar. So, it doesn’t appear that he flashed off the plane. He doesn’t appear to be handcuffed either, though.

    2) I agree with Hammer about the runway. And I think Lapidus landed the plane and not a co-pilot because Lapidus landed the helicopter safely when everyone expected it to crash.

    3) Richard was very condescending to Widmore in the 1954 scene. Any thoughts on how he would have become their leader? Richard said they choose their leaders at a very young age, so it seems like he would have known if Widmore was going to become their leader and treated him accordingly. It makes me wonder if Widmore “protected the island” for more 30 years with the Others, but then became the leader of Dharma.

    4)I noticed that Jack inexplicitly knew Jill’s name, too, as others on this board have mentioned. There seem to be too many “continuity” errors for them all to be mistakes in the show’s production. I am more inclined to think we are seeing clips from parallel universes (but I really have no idea what is going on.)

    5) Finally, I have to say, if this is the last we see of Walt, I will be EXTREMELY disappointed! They have to explain why Walt is special or the show loses all credibility in my opinion. I personally think Michael needs to come back too, but I am resigned to the fact that probably won’t happen.

  396. zimaguy says:

    Heres a new thought to ponder
    What if when Lockes cast comes of his foot he has FOUR TOES !!!

  397. ESB says:

    [quote comment="316761"]Heres a new thought to ponder
    What if when Lockes cast comes of his foot he has FOUR TOES !!![/quote]

    *************************

    AWESOME! i hope that’s what happens…;)

  398. Tasker says:

    [quote comment="316245"][quote comment="316215"]Another thing…. When Jack first appeared in the pilot episode he didn’t remember the crash but Kate did.[/quote]
    —-
    How about this? Jack did jump off of the bridge and commit suicide (think about Locke) when we saw him standing there. Jack has been dead this whole time. He is in the coffin. His return to the island is the real story (think about purgatory). His fathers’ shoes, from his grand-dad, are what his mother wanted him to wear in the coffin. Those shoes are how Jack connects with his father in the after-life. The island is not an island. It is heaven (or hell), and the only way to determine which it is, is HOW you got there.

    That, or they ALL died when Oceanic 815 crashed. Now the task is to determine who goes where (hell or heaven).[/quote]
    ———————-
    D&C said it’s not purgatory.

  399. Tasker says:

    [quote comment="316401"]Widmore and Ben are NOT working together. When Locke tells Ben about Hawking, he realizes that he has to kill Locke, because he’s probably already been there to manipulate her.

    ————
    Which is why he’s nervous when he sees Desmond there… Figures Des might blow his “cover” or whatever lies he’s given to Hawking, the cartoon turtle.

  400. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316742"] It’s bad enough I have to read 400 posts, 1 day after the dang show.[/quote]
    Cut out all the repeating of answers and it really is only about 100.:) Whenever I read “AS I stated earlier…”, I skip right over it. If you stated something earlier, why do you feel the need to state it again?

    LOSTBLOG TIP #1: For all the newbies out there, You can condense the “QUOTES and REPLY”. Just make sure you include the beginning ( qoute comment ) with the brackets, and the ending ( /qoute ) with the brackets. Maybe that would condense the blog a little.

    DISCLAIMER: The term newbie is in no way intended to be offensive. The author of this tip is not responsible for mistakes on the posting.

  401. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="316591"][quote comment="316502"]Roads… Where we’re going we don’t need Roads. Or Runways. But I think the runway was being built for flight 316 and whether it was finished or not, I think the plane used it. Maybe they ran off the runway??? Hurley couldn’t have known about every passenger considering he didn’t know about the tailies at the time and what about all of those people still strapped in their seats underwater. Remember when that loser Paulo was looking for the diamonds? I’m so gald he’s dead…[/quote]
    If the plane used the “runway” then it started and ended at the end of it. It was to close to the beach/ocean for the plane to use it. They seemed far away form the beach/ocean when they were working. I am on record as saying they did not finish the runway because they were not building a runway. They only broke rocks for a day or two. You would need a lot more materials and equipment (steamrollers, concrete, concrete truck) to make a runway big enough for a freakin plane especially a plane the size of 316.[/quote]
    ++++++++
    Yeah, well maiby Ben got a steamroller out of the magic box. It could happen.

  402. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316754"]

    3) Richard was very condescending to Widmore in the 1954 scene. Any thoughts on how he would have become their leader? Richard said they choose their leaders at a very young age, so it seems like he would have known if Widmore was going to become their leader and treated him accordingly. It makes me wonder if Widmore “protected the island” for more 30 years with the Others, but then became the leader of Dharma.

    [/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Something I don’t remember anyone bringing up…there is a very slim, outside chance….that Widmore lied about being leader. Maybe he went straight from loose cannon to exile?

  403. duke says:

    [quote comment="316684"]Here are my two cents;
    1. Gotta go with the no run-way side. I think Juliette was being sarcastic when she mentioned it.

    2. Agree that Widmore said he helped protect the island for over 30 years, NOT that he was the leader for 30 years. My guess would be he left the island when he was about 30. That would make it about 1970- just in time to send Dharma there a year or two later.

    3. I agree with those who think Widmore was NOT talking about Ben, bit Alpert or Jacob when he said “he” tricked him into leaving.

    4. Ben killing Locke does not make him a bad guy. Locke HAD to die. Ben just post-poned his death by five minutes by intervening in the first place. I found it interesting that he did kill him though RIGHT AFTER Locke mentioned Hawkin- the “you can’t change what is meant to happen” advocate. I’m pretty sure she would have told Ben “you can save him from killing himself, but he still has to die”.[/quote]
    Number 2-I just assumed that he could not have helped to protect the island as a child. That he had to be 17-20 years old before he could actually help.

  404. ShelbyDee says:

    Observations from a second time around:
    1. The stuff in the Hydra station actually looks pretty clean with a lot of personal effects like someone actively works there. Maybe they are all in the 70s. There is actually nothing stated which clearly identifies the date.
    2. What motivated Sayid to leave Santo Domingo and break Hurley out of Santa Rosa?
    3. “I help people get to where they need to” says Abbadon. This certainly includes Charlotte, Miles, and Faraday who he told Naomi to take to the island. It clearly wasn’t their skills but there relationship to the island that qualified them for the team.
    4. “He’s gotten big” says Abbadon of Walt. So when did Abbadon know Walt as a smaller kid? I’m thinking he must have had a hand in getting Walt to the island in the first place.
    5. The bag with John Locke’s suicide kit: Angels Hardware.
    6. Ben cleans up the Locke murder scene with rubber gloves and some kind of disinfectant. We’ve got to admire a guy who comes prepared!

    I thought it was interesting on a second viewing to look at each O6 survivor’s excuse as to why he/she wouldn’t return: Sayid says he won’t be manipulated. Kate says if you have love you wouldn’t go back. Jack says that self importance is delusional. Hurley talks about safety and hides. For Locke ultimately, he lets his belief that he cannot lead and is a failure, take him to his death and away, he believes, from returning to the island. Not that I’m a Wizard of Oz junky – but this is reminding me a lot -if Kate only had a heart, if Hurley only had courage, if Jack only self confidence, etc. These elements surly fall into that broader redemeption theme. They must get over the flaws and become heroic. I suspect John has been duped for the last time and has come full circle with his rebirth. [Then again, I think he's already freaking people out with the "I died/he killed me" talk. Sometimes I just want to reach thru the screen and shake him!] I haven’t read Ulysses, but I’ll bet there are a lot of thematic similarities.

  405. duke says:

    [quote comment="316702"]>>JACK: Did you know that Locke killed himself?

    >>BEN: No. No, I didn’t.

    Ben wasn’t lying (technically) – he did not know Locke killed himself because he killed him!

    But I still wonder why Jack was surprised when he was told by Eloise that Locke committed suicide. Sayid knew that Locke did (based on his conversation with Hurley). How did Sayid know?[/quote]
    I think that the article in the paper that Jack read in the flashforward said something about the police investigating it to see if it was a suicide.

  406. duke says:

    [quote comment="316710"]I agree with Hammer on the runway thing. Remember in Season 4, Miles, Charlotte and Daniel asked Lapidus where the helicopter crashed and Lapidus said he landed it, not crashed it because he is a good pilot? I don’t think the plane crashed, I think it landed and I think it landed on a runway.[/quote]
    He landed the helicopter in an open grassy area. You would need a HUGE runway to land that big of a plane. I am just not convinced that they even were building a runway.

  407. duke says:

    [quote comment="316742"]Why the hell does it matter who is right about whether they landed on the freaking runway or not? It’s bad enough I have to read 400 posts, 1 day after the dang show. I wish Ben would come kill me right now.[/quote]
    I wish he would too.

  408. duke says:

    sorry LMAO

  409. Mary says:

    Locke had to die to get back to the island just as Christian had to die to get back. Locke is now literally filling Christian’s shoes.

    I don’t think Ben was ever chosen to lead – that’s why he participted in the gassing. He’s always scheming – but not necessarily in the know. I think he didn’t know what would happen when Jack, etc. left the island. He offed Locke ‘cuz he knew he had to die. (Wasn’t there some mention of a resurrection early in the episode wrt Jack?)

    Widmore may be a good guy and the mercinary crazy from somewhere else.

  410. adapa1 says:

    i beleive so as well

    [quote comment="316560"][quote comment="316556"][quote comment="316548"][quote comment="316541"][quote comment="316540"]

    from lostpedia….

    SAYID: Why do you really need to go back? Is it just because you have nowhere else to go?

    LOCKE: If you change your mind, I’ll be staying under the name “Jeremy Bentham” in L.A. at the Westerfield Hotel[/quote]
    Right, that’s why I didn’t mention Sayid. Nor Kate, because some of that conversation took place off-screen. But for Walt, Hurley, and Jack, we saw the entire conversation. “JB” didn’t come up. How did they know?[/quote]

    ~~~~~

    sorry bout that.. not enough coffee.. yet.

    but, since JB was brought into Jacks hospital, it is/was possible that he had the passport we see in his hotel room under Jins ring with him?

    that would explain how Jack had known his name… who could have told Hurley.

    but Walt??? did Walt ever say Bentham?[/quote]
    __________________________
    Back in the season 4 finale, when Walt went to see Hurley at Santa Rosa, he referred to Bentham. So at that point they supposedly both knew that name.

    Your comment about Jack made me think further about this – probably when Locke was brought to the hospital, the ambulance or hospital staff came across the passport, so they would identify him as Jeremy Bentham.

    But that name wouldn’t mean anything to Jack, if he saw it on some list of the hospital’s patients. So I guess we’re to assume that somehow Jack saw Locke being wheeled around the hospital.

    That would be quite a coincidence, but I suppose that’s what happened. (Like Locke was saying, it was fate). Then, inside Locke’s hospital room Jack either found his passport, or his chart which would have “Jeremy Bentham” on it. So, OK, I’ll take back that part of my critique. But I still don’t see how Hurley and Walt knew the name.[/quote]

    Walt’s knowledge of the alias can be explained by Walt’s special powers. Hurley could have known from his conversation with Walt or from one of the many dead people who tend to visit him on a daily basis. They do seem to tell him things he needs to know…

    The Jill the butcher thing could be careless writing…[/quote]

  411. adapa1 says:

    [quote comment="316559"]I am wondering if Hawking was exiled along with Widmore.[/quote]
    I’m thinkig she was …. and that Jaccob had something to do wirth it since it was Jacob that first lead ben to power

    my first post

  412. adapa1 says:

    My first post here, but have been following you guys for a while. I’m gonna have to go along with Hammer on several issues. Fist and foremost….

    1.Eloise and widmore exiled together

    2. Is is too crazy to call “relations” between Widmore and Eloise? An if not can penny and Daniel be related…and does it even matter.

    3. Eloise and Widmore are exiled by Jacob himself..or jacob ordered Ben to do so.

    4.Ceasar is certainly working with Ben.

    5. *uck Ben (lol)

    6. I”ve been thinking for awhile now that Johns relation to the Island is just as old as Richards… and I swear that statue of the old four toed being is Richard. I wanna ask if its possible for John to have been born on the island in another timeline but cant really grasp it now.. There is something..somehow jacob=john-Aaron. (some one help me!! lol))

    7. There is no reason for me to assume that Widmore is not top be trusted before Ben after what we…just saw.

  413. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="316747"][quote comment="316742"]Why the hell does it matter who is right about whether they landed on the freaking runway or not? It’s bad enough I have to read 400 posts, 1 day after the dang show. I wish Ben would come kill me right now.[/quote]

    *****************************

    haha, GREAT point…it’s just something to talk about…but when you get down to it why the hell does any of it matter enough to discuss? ;)[/quote]
    _______________________________

    One thing that is significant is how John appears to be “fully alive” again and not “dead-alive” like what happened to Christian. This also makes me wonder about how Ben’s mom appeared on the island and did not die there and was not even taken there after death. Seems like alot of inconsistancy with how that works.

    Aaannnd, I want to go on record as saying BOTH Widmore and Ben are evil. There are too many examples for me to list. The only “good guys” are the losties. Ben chose to turn the FDW for one reason only — to find and kill Penny.

    Oh yeah, and there MUST be another way to leave the island other than the FDW. Do you think Richard and Tom exploded the wall at the Orchid every time to go down and turn the wheel in order to travel back and forth? No way.

  414. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="316804"]sorry LMAO[/quote]
    One good laugh deserves another.

  415. VERY-LOST says:

    Yes he does. I beleive it to be telekinesis as opposed to mind reading.

    Telekinesis or PsychokinesisThe influence of mind upon matter, as the use of mental ‘power’ to move or distort an object.

    The Others’ book club reads Carrie, by Stephen King, which is about a teenager with psychokinetic abilities. In “Special”, Walt felt ignored by his mother and stepfatherwhile trying to tell them about an exotic bird he was reading about at the time, and shortly thereafter, a bird of that species flew directly into a nearby window. Walt also has an uncanny ability to affect the roll of his dice in playing backgammon with Hurley, and he perfectly guides the knife to its target when practicing with Locke, simply by envisioning it hitting the target. A polar bear appears after Walt reads Hurley’s comic book, which features a polar bear.[/quote]

    ********************************************
    Telekinesis? Even thought Locke is the “Chosen One” or “Savior”…are you saying that Walt & Locke share the same abilities? Remember Locke bringing his “dad” Anthony Cooper to the island?

    Its a good theory, just confused as heck.

  416. Skippy says:

    Best Lost site ever! I’d be honored if the collective used some of my observations for kindling. I have 2 little guys to chase all day and haven’t the sleep/time to construct theories but I dearly love some of yours…
    1. Anybody notice the strawberry blonde woman who was the last to board 316 (we just see the back of her head)?
    2. Could Ben have been an original passenger on 815?
    3. Hurley’s painting included the Sphinx, whose feet have 4 toes.
    4. Was there a non-cliffhanger reason why none of the O6 would say John Locke’s name in “There’s No Place Like Home”? They all seemed to dismiss him in “Life and Death of JB”but acted totally spooked about him last season.

  417. Bobola says:

    [quote comment="316492"]And I didn’t know Hurley was an artist! He was drawing a Sphinx which I am now reading up on. Some statues stand tall. Not sure about the sandals but they definitely have four toes! Why was Hurley drawing that? Please nobody give me a DUH answer cause I am a little slow tonight![/quote]
    ———-
    Yes some sphinxes do sit up but Hurley looked like he was doing a version of the one at Giza in Egypt.
    But it looked al ot like a famous Brit artist’s version I’ve seen before…Hurley seems more into comics so odd that he is painting in a more sophisticated way; doesn’t make sense.
    Good call though….maybe the island statue is a sphinx.
    God, one more scene with Hurley doing his 12 year old act and I’m going to the island with a crate of Twinkies and eat them all in front ot him and not share. Then he’ll really whine and I will laugh. I hate Hurley.

  418. Skippy says:

    Oops – sorry Tasha. I didn’t realize you’d made the point about Sphinx toes.
    =D

  419. RGS says:

    My 2 cents on the runway is similar to sector’s. What big role does the runway play? If the island is constantly moving and you have to come in at a certain heading during a certain time, isn’t it useless to build a static runway? Unless you’re assuming that Ben, who appears unconscious, could, not only see the future, but in his unconscious state, could determine exactly what heading to come in on that the runway should be built?

    I’m not going to comment on the Ben is evil thing anymore. Folks want to see what they want to see. I would appreciate a SRTR4K after the theories explaining why he must do what he does in the way that he does.

    One other thing that folks may need to realize, is that we are but what, maybe 2-3 thousand fans of the show, and there are millions. So the stuff we dissect and see, is not necessarily seen by most folks. So there will be sloppy writing (like Jack saying Locke visited him a month ago, when it only happened a day ago, or Jack claiming he’d been flying all these routes hoping to crash on the island, when they very likely got on the plane within a week of Locke’s death…that whole timeline is jacked up in my opinion) and we know there are tons of throwaway lines/moments, because there is simply not enough time to answer all the questions raised.

  420. Abaddon says:

    only thing ive seen photoshopped in lost, is that jank picture of hawking and the friar or priest…. worst photo i’ve ever seen. looks like a prison photo and a happy old lady.

  421. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316794"]
    Something I don’t remember anyone bringing up…there is a very slim, outside chance….that Widmore lied about being leader. Maybe he went straight from loose cannon to exile?[/quote]
    Best “theory” yet, what ever that means.:)

    I see a lot of posters saying “we assume this” and “this had to happen”…it sounds like the latest is “Widmore said this, so it MUST be true.”

    Slim chance, Hammer, how about NO chance. He was LEADER of the island, and therefore, by nature, Widmore has lied.

    Any LEADER has to protect his people, and their beliefs. JMO.

  422. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316848"]like Jack saying Locke visited him a month ago, when it only happened a day ago, or Jack claiming he’d been flying all these routes hoping to crash on the island, when they very likely got on the plane within a week of Locke’s death…that whole timeline is jacked up in my opinion[/quote]

    I think we need to keep in mind that things on this show don’t happen in the order we see them. Just to look at Jack’s timeline since the rescue – from LAST season:

    What we’ve seen:
    1) Press conference 01/2005

    2) Christian’s memorial service – Jack says “ten months ago” so this is about six months after the rescue or 07/2005

    3) Goes to Hurley’s birthday, unknown date but PRIOR to October 24, 2005

    4) After Hurley is arrested and sent back to Santa Rosa, Jack visits him there and they play HORSE.

    5) Jack goes to Kate’s trial (Aaron is a toddler – so roughly two years after rescue) 01/2007

    6) Jack goes BACK to visit Hurley, in his room this time. “You’re not supposed to raise him, Jack.”

    7) Christian visits Jack in the lobby of the medical building (where the beeping smoke detector sounds like the button warning in the hatch). Jack asks his doctor friend for an Rx. Jack and Kate are engaged.

    8) Jack catches Kate on the phone with “Noreen.” Has a fight about Aaron not even being RELATED to Kate.

    9) Bearded Jack is on the plane, sees the obituary, calls Kate, attempts to jump off bridge.

    10) Goes to Hoffs/Drawler the first time.

    11) Steals drugs from the hospital and say, “Go get my father and if he is more drunk than I am…” (paraphrasing of course).

    12) Jack is drunk and high and sitting on the floor among maps and other detritus. Calls Kate again.

    13) Meets Kate at the airport, “I am SICK of lying. We made a mistake.” Kate mentions “three years trying to forget” so likely around 01/2008.

    14) Jack and Ben are at Hoffs/Drawler (for the big Locke reveal).

    So based on the above, which is the order in which things happened LAST season, we have to extrapolate WHEN the stuff we’ve seen THIS season happened WITHIN the timeline above. Just because we saw Locke visit everyone in 48 minutes, doesn’t mean he did it quickly at all.

    For example, between 7 and 8 above, Walt visits Hurley at Santa Rosa. He tells Hurley that Bentham came to see him. We know that Locke visited Sayid first and then Walt, and then went to the hospital and saw Jack. Jack starts falling apart after 8 and possibly after 7 (assuming that the beard indicates poor emotional health – obviously not in all cases, but definitely in Jack’s case! LOL).

    We know that after number 8, Ben goes to Locke and tells him that Jack has started flying to Sydney. We know that Jack told Kate he had “been flying” on the golden pass which leads us to believe he has done it several times.

    So what this very long winded post is trying to express is that it wasn’t a matter of one or two days between the time that Locke arrived in Tunisia and when he saw Jack. And it was more than just a few days between the time that he first saw Jack and when he killed himself.

    : ) P

  423. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316833"]My first post here.[/quote]
    Really? Looks like your third. JK:) Namaste and Good Luck.

    For help on QUOTING AND REPLYING see post 401.

  424. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="316835"]
    This also makes me wonder about how Ben’s mom appeared on the island and did not die there and was not even taken there after death.

    The only “good guys” are the losties.

    Ben chose to turn the FDW for one reason only — to find and kill Penny.

    Oh yeah, and there MUST be another way to leave the island other than the FDW. Do you think Richard and Tom exploded the wall at the Orchid every time to go down and turn the wheel in order to travel back and forth? No way.[/quote]
    Excellent points.
    First, we do not know if Ben’s Mom was ever brought to the island or not. Maybe SHE was in a casket, on a plane, at one point in time. Think about that one.:)

    Second, are the remaining LOSTies really that “good”? I think more than half of them have taken someones life, but I could be wrong.

    I completely agree with your last two points. Ben looks to be definitely on a mission to kill Penny. There was also a way, probably for AT LEAST 50 years to travel to and from the island, we just haven’t seen it yet.

  425. JOHN 316 says:

    Fricken EXCELLENT epesodie!!!

  426. RGS says:

    PJ Re: 423
    You stated bearded Jack is on the plane flying to Sydney, is it your belief that the flight he gets after Locke visits him is not the first one?

    When bearded Jack goes to the funeral parlor to visit Locke for the first time, how long do you think Locke had been lying in state?

    When Ben kills Locke I don’t think the funeral parlor would hold a body for weeks at a time while Jack grows a beard, and subsequently shaves the beard by the time they are in the church.

    I know you are kinda guestimating with your timeline, but you have Jack visiting the funeral parlor for the first time, BEFORE the Locke reveal, when it seems that it would be the opposite because he breaks into the basement.

    I don’t think that Locke visited everyone in an extremely short time frame, but starting from when he visits Jack, there are quite a few things that happen, that seem a little inconsistent.

  427. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316920"]PJ Re: 423
    You stated bearded Jack is on the plane flying to Sydney, is it your belief that the flight he gets after Locke visits him is not the first one?[/quote]

    I do believe that yes. For several reasons. The first is that Jack told Kate he “had been flying” using the golden pass. That leads me to believe that it has happened several times. Plus, the flight WE SEE him on, he is HOLDING John’s obituary. Ben told Locke (yes, before he died) that Jack was on a plane right then. The flight that we see him on had to occur long enough AFTER Locke’s death that the paper could print the obituary.

    [quote comment="316920"]When bearded Jack goes to the funeral parlor to visit Locke for the first time, how long do you think Locke had been lying in state?
    [/quote]

    Typically visitation is going to be three days to a week after the death.

    [quote comment="316920"]When Ben kills Locke I don’t think the funeral parlor would hold a body for weeks at a time while Jack grows a beard, and subsequently shaves the beard by the time they are in the church.
    [/quote]

    Not sure what one has to do with the other. “Cleanshaven” Jack sees Locke in the hospital and starts (or continues) the downward spiral. Begins late night phone calls to Kate, and transPacific flights hoping to crash. Meanwhile Locke starts his own personal downward spiral. Attempts suicide, is killed by Ben. Jack continues flying, sees the obituary. Visits the funeral parlor during the day and finds out no one showed up for visitation. Calls Kate, meets Kate, almost jumps off bridge. Breaks INTO funeral parlor, sees Locke, and BEN steals the corpse. Locke’s body is already embalmed, he ain’t gonna start stinkin’ up the place!

    [quote comment="316920"]I know you are kinda guestimating with your timeline, but you have Jack visiting the funeral parlor for the first time, BEFORE the Locke reveal, when it seems that it would be the opposite because he breaks into the basement.[/quote]

    My timeline for everything that happened last season is correct. In the S4 extras, they had a reel of all of Season 4’s flashforwards in chronological order.

    [quote comment="316920"]I don’t think that Locke visited everyone in an extremely short time frame, but starting from when he visits Jack, there are quite a few things that happen, that seem a little inconsistent.[/quote]

    Not sure what else is inconsistent, but if you can be specific, I will try to explain my theory on it more clearly.

    : ) P

  428. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="316987"]I do believe that yes. For several reasons. The first is that Jack told Kate he “had been flying” using the golden pass. That leads me to believe that it has happened several times. Plus, the flight WE SEE him on, he is HOLDING John’s obituary. Ben told Locke (yes, before he died) that Jack was on a plane right then. The flight that we see him on had to occur long enough AFTER Locke’s death that the paper could print the obituary.[/quote]

    Following up on my own post…LOL.

    From the transcript of “Through the Looking Glass” S3E22:

    JACK: I’ve been flying a lot.

    KATE: What?

    JACK: Yeah that golden pass that they gave us. I, I’ve been using it. Every Friday night I, I fly from LA to Tokyo or, Singapore, Sydney. [Laughs] And then I, I get off and I, have a drink, and then I fly home.

    If Jack’s seeing Locke at the hospital was the catalyst for him to start flying, then that is a good indication of the idea that Jack and Locke saw each other several WEEKS prior to Locke’s death.

    : ) P

  429. sector7 says:

    As for the time between John’s car accident and his murder, aren’t the car accident cuts and bruises gone when we see him and Ben in the room with the extension cord? That means Jack had a few weeks to grow a beard.

  430. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316845"]Best Lost site ever! I’d be honored if the collective used some of my observations for kindling. I have 2 little guys to chase all day and haven’t the sleep/time to construct theories but I dearly love some of yours…
    1. Anybody notice the strawberry blonde woman who was the last to board 316 (we just see the back of her head)?
    2. Could Ben have been an original passenger on 815?
    3. Hurley’s painting included the Sphinx, whose feet have 4 toes.
    4. Was there a non-cliffhanger reason why none of the O6 would say John Locke’s name in “There’s No Place Like Home”? They all seemed to dismiss him in “Life and Death of JB”but acted totally spooked about him last season.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    I’ll stab at 2 and 4.

    Ben watched 815 break apart and crash from New Otherton…so no.

    I took it as BECAUSE they were ‘spooked’ by him is WHY the dismissed him later.

  431. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316842"]Yes he does. I beleive it to be telekinesis as opposed to mind reading.

    Telekinesis or PsychokinesisThe influence of mind upon matter, as the use of mental ‘power’ to move or distort an object.

    The Others’ book club reads Carrie, by Stephen King, which is about a teenager with psychokinetic abilities. In “Special”, Walt felt ignored by his mother and stepfatherwhile trying to tell them about an exotic bird he was reading about at the time, and shortly thereafter, a bird of that species flew directly into a nearby window. Walt also has an uncanny ability to affect the roll of his dice in playing backgammon with Hurley, and he perfectly guides the knife to its target when practicing with Locke, simply by envisioning it hitting the target. A polar bear appears after Walt reads Hurley’s comic book, which features a polar bear.[/quote]

    ********************************************
    Telekinesis? Even thought Locke is the “Chosen One” or “Savior”…are you saying that Walt & Locke share the same abilities? Remember Locke bringing his “dad” Anthony Cooper to the island?

    Its a good theory, just confused as heck.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++=
    Well no, because I don’t think that Locke actually brought Cooper to the island. Ben did that, he lied to Locke. It was part of the plan to prove to the Others that Locke was not their new leader…..IMO.

  432. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316835"]Oh yeah, and there MUST be another way to leave the island other than the FDW. Do you think Richard and Tom exploded the wall at the Orchid every time to go down and turn the wheel in order to travel back and forth? No way.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    I think you are correct. And IMO we have some proof. Michael and Walt left on a motor boat, DHARMA (and later the Others) on the submarine, the O6 on a helicopter….

  433. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="317007"][quote comment="316835"]Oh yeah, and there MUST be another way to leave the island other than the FDW. Do you think Richard and Tom exploded the wall at the Orchid every time to go down and turn the wheel in order to travel back and forth? No way.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    I think you are correct. And IMO we have some proof. Michael and Walt left on a motor boat, DHARMA (and later the Others) on the submarine, the O6 on a helicopter….[/quote]
    ___________________
    Yes, but I’m thinking about something we haven’t seen or heard of. Like another “window” somewhere on the island.

  434. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="316848"]… isn’t it useless to build a static runway? Unless you’re assuming that Ben, who appears unconscious, could, not only see the future, but in his unconscious state, could determine exactly what heading to come in on that the runway should be built?
    [/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    Not going to comment on the r– –y. LOL

    But, there was a theory that someone and I brought up not too long ago pertaining to the Whisperers (if you can believe THAT). What if everytime Ben ‘had a plan’ is because the Whisperers were telling him what is going on? Maybe they told him about the r– –y?

  435. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="317009"]
    ___________________
    Yes, but I’m thinking about something we haven’t seen or heard of. Like another “window” somewhere on the island.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Gotcha, my guess is that you already have your answer….the ‘current’ bearings are the ‘windows’…IMO

  436. Skippy says:

    [quote comment="317003"][quote comment="316845"]
    1. Anybody notice the strawberry blonde woman who was the last to board 316 (we just see the back of her head)?
    2. Could Ben have been an original passenger on 815?
    3. Hurley’s painting included the Sphinx, whose feet have 4 toes.
    4. Was there a non-cliffhanger reason why none of the O6 would say John Locke’s name in “There’s No Place Like Home”? They all seemed to dismiss him in “Life and Death of JB”but acted totally spooked about him last season.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    I’ll stab at 2 and 4.

    Ben watched 815 break apart and crash from New Otherton…so no.

    I took it as BECAUSE they were ‘spooked’ by him is WHY the dismissed him later.[/quote]
    =======
    Good grief – sorry about that Ben question – badly sleep-deprived here. Re: 06 spooked by Locke, it seemed that they dismissed him first, when he visited each of them, then later (S4) each spoke of him with furious intensity and insisted on using his alias…
    Thanks for addressing my questions, Hammer. I’ll try to prevent more mental slop. =)

  437. jaime says:

    A few things i read on Lostpedia (non-canon) that i found interesting.

    One of the maps (possibly Daniel’s)that Caesar found in the Hydra had hieroglyphs on it that appear to read “Northward travel” and “Time of kings/ancients”.

    Hurley is seen painting a picture presumably of the Great Sphinx of Giza in Egypt. Interestingly enough, the word “sphinx” derives from Greek and translates as “strangler,” alluding to Ben’s future strangling of Locke.

    The room where Caesar was looking through the papers was Ben’s office at the Hydra Dharma station. In a deleted scene of Season 3 Ben can be seen working in this room.

  438. Missy says:

    In response to #405 – There are many Wizard of Oz connections to be drawn. In addition to what you mentioned – the underlying theme is that you “shouldn’t look any further than your own backyard” which could be taken to mean that they shouldn’t have left the island in the first place. Their place is on the island. Which leads me to ask: do you think they can melt Ben? Just kidding ( :

    I haven’t seen any mention about the maps in the hydra room that Cesar found. One looked like Rousseau’s old map of the island that Sayid took from her. Another one reminded me of the blue prints of Goodspeed/Jacob’s cabin and how it moves through space and time. I’d like to see a screen cap – I paused it on DVR, but it’d be nice to get an up close look. I think there’s more to it than just him finding these, especially since we got a nice look at the later one.

    I can’t say for sure if Widmore is evil now or not – he did make a good point that he hasn’t tried to kill John, like Ben has – twice over now. Or if Widmore was Darma. There were Widmore-manufactured food in the hatch…also I recently re-watched the episode where Susan (Walt’s mom) dies as they replay episodes on the G4 channel. She has Darma written all over her. Her house in Australia even had the Darma octagon built throughout it. And she died suddenly of a “blood disorder” – which has to be something more than meets the eye. And she told Michael back in the day that she wanted to live on a boat…odd. Which all leads me to believe that this isn’t the last we’ve seen of Susan, Michael or Walt.

  439. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="317020"]

    I can’t say for sure if Widmore is evil now or not – quote]
    ______________________________
    What about sending a boatload of killers to kill tens of innocent people on the island? Those were orders given to Keamy directly from Widmore. Then there’s the video of Widmore holding someone “hostage-style” in the video Ben showed John… I don’t see any doubt about this.

  440. RGS says:

    PJ here are the issues I’d like clarification on.

    Locke is told he needs to find Ms. Hawkings because she will help them all go back. So for the month he spends lamenting away, he never goes to see the one person who is supposed to help him get the players to go back to the island?

    Ben then murders Locke. Let’s forget about the amount of time it would take for an obit. to appear in the paper, because it is TV, Jack reads it and then attempts suicide. Saves woman and child, and is denied the opportunity to do their surgery the next day. Gets frustrated and then drives to the viewing where no one shows. Tries to get Kate to attend the funeral.

    He returns to the funeral parlor, the tv show reveals it’s Locke. Talks with Ben. Ben has to have talked with Hawkings, because 1) that was the impetus of his murdering of Locke 2) even if you don’t want to believe Ben the Benelovent, could do such a thing for no good reason, he is definitely aware that ALL of them have to go back, even the dead Locke.

    They steal the body. Next morning Ben tells Jack the plan, go pack his bags, and meet up in 6 hours, oh by the way, you’re never coming back.

    Meanwhile Sayid is breaking Hurley out of the Mental Hospital, because Locke has just committed suicide 2 days ago. All of the highjinx ensue with Sayid, Kate tailing the attorney, Jack and company meeting with Hawkings, Jack visiting his G-pa at the old folks home, getting some nookie from Kate, and picking up Locke’s body from Jill da Butcher. All of this happens in an extremely tight time frame, No?

  441. Missy says:

    True, true sector7. Good points. I’m always hesitant to commit to who I think is good and bad – but Keamy was pure evil and sent by Widmore.

    Did anyone notice the parallel in the crashes of 816 and 316 – Christian standing in the water with a suit and John mirroring that same thing. Also the way that Cesar and Illana seemed to jump in and take control of the situation similar to how Kate and Jack did in their situation.

  442. dealer says:

    after the episode, really after ben killed john i realized that they are two oppistes. one is the pretender while other is the real deal. john thinks he’s a loser but isn’t meanwhile ben is trying so hard to be not a loser like his father but at the end he’s a loser. he’s trying to outsmart destiny, change the course of history (that he either ignores or does not know like the others do) but he can’t. he keeps trying and trying to change his fate and who he is, just a spectator not a real player.

    it seems that ben is one of those wrinkles in time and is totally ignored by people with power (jacob, christian, richard alpert)…he’s nothing more than a benign pimple to them.

    kinda going real fast isn’t it?

  443. Christie says:

    [quote comment="316794"][quote comment="316754"]

    3) Richard was very condescending to Widmore in the 1954 scene. Any thoughts on how he would have become their leader? Richard said they choose their leaders at a very young age, so it seems like he would have known if Widmore was going to become their leader and treated him accordingly. It makes me wonder if Widmore “protected the island” for more 30 years with the Others, but then became the leader of Dharma.

    [/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Something I don’t remember anyone bringing up…there is a very slim, outside chance….that Widmore lied about being leader. Maybe he went straight from loose cannon to exile?[/quote]

    +++++++++++++

    I agree that Widmore could be lying about being the leader, but he had a conversation with Ben in a previous season where he said something like “Everything you have you took from me” or something about Ben stealing the island from him. It seemed like he was telling Ben that the island was his before it was Ben’s.

  444. dealer says:

    richard, jacob and christian all three OMG!!! father, son and holy ghost!

    i was going to say that they pretty much don’t meddle (like god)…and they’re letting ben and widmore fight it out…i think ben could be one of the three and richard could be one of the angels…

  445. gmta leah says:

    [quote comment="316742"]Why the hell does it matter who is right about whether they landed on the freaking runway or not? It’s bad enough I have to read 400 posts, 1 day after the dang show. I wish Ben would come kill me right now.[/quote]
    ///////////////
    i agree .400 post all about the same subject. when you read four houndred posts one after the other ,you see how repetative they all are !its a pity we cant interject at the source, instead of putting quotes in time after time !

  446. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="317027"][quote comment="316794"][quote comment="316754"]

    3) Richard was very condescending to Widmore in the 1954 scene. Any thoughts on how he would have become their leader? Richard said they choose their leaders at a very young age, so it seems like he would have known if Widmore was going to become their leader and treated him accordingly. It makes me wonder if Widmore “protected the island” for more 30 years with the Others, but then became the leader of Dharma.

    [/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Something I don’t remember anyone bringing up…there is a very slim, outside chance….that Widmore lied about being leader. Maybe he went straight from loose cannon to exile?[/quote]

    +++++++++++++

    I agree that Widmore could be lying about being the leader, but he had a conversation with Ben in a previous season where he said something like “Everything you have you took from me” or something about Ben stealing the island from him. It seemed like he was telling Ben that the island was his before it was Ben’s.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++++
    True enough, he said that. IMO, leaders of evil empires always think things are theirs and they are fighting to get what was taken from them. I still wonder if the Ben and Widmore fight are good vs. evil or if they are on the same side fighting for leadership. It almost seems like the island’s dilema is that they need a leader for unification….so it can fight off the evil yet to come….just a theory.

  447. gmta leah says:

    [quote comment="317009"][quote comment="317007"][quote comment="316835"]Oh yeah, and there MUST be another way to leave the island other than the FDW. Do you think Richard and Tom exploded the wall at the Orchid every time to go down and turn the wheel in order to travel back and forth? No way.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    I think you are correct. And IMO we have some proof. Michael and Walt left on a motor boat, DHARMA (and later the Others) on the submarine, the O6 on a helicopter….[/quote]
    ___________________
    Yes, but I’m thinking about something we haven’t seen or heard of. Like another “window” somewhere on the island.[/quote]
    /////////////////////
    you mean the little magic box room /cupboard where locke s father appeared in?

  448. shellonius funk says:

    i think that there were def. a couple of weeks between locke’s stay at jack’s hospital and locke’s “suicide.”
    the short beard was enough proof for me; they could’ve EASILY put a shitty fake beard on jack like they always have, but they chose not to for a reason.
    thinking it all happened in a couple of days is as silly as thinking that locke went from tunisia to santo domingo in the length of one episode.
    plus locke mentioning christian in the hospital probably planted the seed for him seeing him (in hallucinations?) in a later episode at the hospital.

    i LOVE the idea about the sphynx….i said on last week’s blog that i think the island is a portal to carthage…which is current day tunisia…and they sphynx ties in with that. AND with richard’s eyeliner :-p

  449. duke says:

    Have been thinking of about the title (LOST) and DHARMA. Anytime they are on the screen they both appear in capital letters. Like the title at the beginning and end of each episode and during the reruns with the extra info at the bottom of the screen (for DHARMA). Could each letter represent a word. L iving O utside S pace and T ime for LOST but I cannot come up with anything for DHARMA. Haven’t seen this discussed anywhere before and would love some feedback.

  450. shellonius funk says:

    i think that there were def. a couple of weeks between locke’s stay at jack’s hospital and locke’s “suicide.”
    the short beard was enough proof for me; they could’ve EASILY put a shitty fake beard on jack like they always have, but they chose not to for a reason.
    thinking it all happened in a couple of days is as silly as thinking that locke went from tunisia to santo domingo in the length of one episode.
    plus locke mentioning christian in the hospital probably planted the seed for him seeing him (in hallucinations?) in a later episode at the hospital.

    i LOVE the idea about the sphynx….i said on last week’s blog that i think the island is a portal to carthage…which is current day tunisia…and they sphynx ties in with that. AND with richard’s eyeliner :-p
    but on wiki’s carthage page, there is mentioned a HANNO MAGNUS….magnus hanso, anyone??!
    magnus means “the great”, and “de groot” means “the great” as well.
    which brings me to 1985: that’s the date on the blast door map that says “AH/MDG incident.”
    alvar hanso/magnus de groot?
    i dunno…i could be making it work for my theory’s sake, but isn’t that how we roll?!
    speaking of that year/time frame, that would likely be when widmore left…he’d been in control of the island for 30 years, and he had been away for 20.
    the blast door map lists 1984 as “Suspected shutdown date.”

  451. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="317035"][quote comment="317009"][quote comment="317007"][quote comment="316835"]Oh yeah, and there MUST be another way to leave the island other than the FDW. Do you think Richard and Tom exploded the wall at the Orchid every time to go down and turn the wheel in order to travel back and forth? No way.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    I think you are correct. And IMO we have some proof. Michael and Walt left on a motor boat, DHARMA (and later the Others) on the submarine, the O6 on a helicopter….[/quote]
    ___________________
    Yes, but I’m thinking about something we haven’t seen or heard of. Like another “window” somewhere on the island.[/quote]
    /////////////////////
    you mean the little magic box room /cupboard where locke s father appeared in?[/quote]
    ______________________
    Not exactly. I think the magic box is a metaphor, as many here do and as Ben has already stated. I’m thinking some other device, similar to what we saw in the Orchid, where a traveler enters while someone else sits at a control panel to send them to another pocket of electromagnetic energy. In theory, one could travel from the island to the Lamp Post this way.

  452. Rita says:

    Whew! I thought I might never get through all 452 posts so I could respond and add a couple of ideas! Just a couple of things:

    1) Last week I said that no way could Ben kill Penny/baby Charlie – we just wouldn’t stand for it. I am no longer so sure about that. I am thinking Ben is capable of ANYTHING.

    2) I’m thinking (sorry I don’t remember everyone who thought this) that Eloise was NOT exiled along with Widmore. She seems to be working for “The Island” still, as a sort of “Away Mission” of sorts – coordinating things on the main land. Probably is responsible for the Dharma food drops. Definitely available for whatever comes up (Desmond time traveling, etc.).

    3) Speaking of Widmore, I am thinking that when he says he is/was “their leader”, and they weren’t Others to him, they were “his people” – he sounded like Locke. Perhaps, he was “made leader” like Locke was, but was exiled shortly afterward – like Locke – and never REALLY functioned as leader (Does anyone? Isn’t Richard always pulling the real strings?) and feels cheated and is therefore trying do something about it. Doesn’t seem that HE is really trying to personally go back.

    OK, that’s enough to start with! Let the refutations begin!

  453. agentLOST says:

    [quote comment="316435"]Also, one other thing, I thought that once you turned the FDW you could never return to the island. So how did Locke and Ben end up back there?[/quote]

    _________________________________________________________

    It was a lie Ben told Locke last season. He said Locke needed to stay on the island and be the leader. Lying Ben.

  454. Rita says:

    OK, another thought:
    I was thinking, during all the “runway” debate (don’t worry, not bringing it back up!) that the island isn’t actually visable from the air is it? I mean, if a pilot were looking down, and saw an unknown island, wouldn’t he wonder what THAT place was? Why it wasn’t on any map? Why, when he flew over the same spot next flight, that it wasn’t there anymore? If he were flying over a “window” where the island might conceivably be visable, then wouldn’t the plane crash -every time – like this would be a pretty routine occurance?
    What I’m trying to say, is that runway or no runway, it doesn’t seem likely that any pilot would be able to AIM for a particular landing spot while the plane is shaking/flashing/people disappearing/people getting thrown about. It seems more likely that the pilot (Frank or co-pilot) had to go for what he thought would be a water landing out in the middle of the ocean, and just ended up on mystery island. If he ended up in a place that someone (through time travel?) had already forseen, then a “runway” might have been cleared to help more people survive. Just a thought.

    Along the same lines, I’ve always wondered (well, since Jughead anyway) HOW the army was able to send in soldiers, wave after wave, attempting to take care of Jughead. HOW did Jughead get there, but more importantly, how did the soldiers not only get there, but how did the NEXT soldiers get there, etc.? Was the island not hidden then? Was it visable in the past and not moving about? Doesn’t seem likely, so there must be another explanation – what is it?

  455. jaime says:

    [quote comment="317037"]Have been thinking of about the title (LOST) and DHARMA. Anytime they are on the screen they both appear in capital letters. Like the title at the beginning and end of each episode and during the reruns with the extra info at the bottom of the screen (for DHARMA). Could each letter represent a word. L iving O utside S pace and T ime for LOST but I cannot come up with anything for DHARMA. Haven’t seen this discussed anywhere before and would love some feedback.[/quote]

    *****************************************
    The DHARMA (Department of Heuristics And Research on Material Applications) Initiative

  456. BaileyLovesLost says:

    Couldn’t all of the Losties have flashed out of the O815 flight? For the plane crashing, our main characters didn’t have too many injuries. We never saw how each survived the flight. Like Jack landing on his back in the jungle under tall trees and only having a few cuts and bruises. Maybe all of the Ajira 315 Losties were whisked out of the plane to make it on the island safely, but the regular passengers are still in the same time period as the Losties? Jack, Kate and Hurley (and most likely Sun and Sayid) being in the 1970’s while the rest of the passengers are in the current day is too confusing for me. When Ben moved the island and it started time traveling, the island disappeared. So how could the island be in two places at once – 1970’s (where the Losties end up) and present day (where the regular Ajiran passengers end up)?

    Even though we get more answers each week, I feel like I get more confused!

  457. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317022"]Locke is told he needs to find Ms. Hawkings because she will help them all go back. So for the month he spends lamenting away, he never goes to see the one person who is supposed to help him get the players to go back to the island?
    [/quote]

    It seems like you disagree with the timeline because we haven’t seen what happens in between the bits we’ve seen. IMO, Locke possibly returns to see a couple of the O6’ers. Regardless, he may feel he has to go see Mrs. Hawking with all his sacrificial lambs in hand. It would be unlike him to go whining around the church saying, “What if I can’t get them all?” like Ben did.

    [quote comment="317022"]Meanwhile Sayid is breaking Hurley out of the Mental Hospital, because Locke has just committed suicide 2 days ago. All of the highjinx ensue with Sayid, Kate tailing the attorney, Jack and company meeting with Hawkings, Jack visiting his G-pa at the old folks home, getting some nookie from Kate, and picking up Locke’s body from Jill da Butcher. All of this happens in an extremely tight time frame, No?[/quote]

    Yes, I believe all of this paragraph happens within a few days. We know that most of it happens after Mrs. Hawkings gives Ben the “70 hour” window.

    : ) P

  458. Rita says:

    Yet another thought! :)
    When Walt was speaking to John, he mentioned having dreams about Locke. From LOST transcripts:

    WALT: I’ve been having dreams about you. You were on the Island, wearing a suit, and there are people all around you. They wanted to hurt you, John.

    LOCKE: Good thing they’re just dreams.

    Sounds like “prophecy” to me since this is really what happened to Locke after the 316 crash. Well, for now, the island and the suit part. The everyone wanting to hurt him part will no doubt be next. More evidence of Walt’s “specialness”. We will see more of Walt, as evidenced by this exchange.

  459. shellonius funk says:

    because the runway has come up again:

    http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Runway

  460. shellonius funk says:

    another runway shot:

    either before it became run-down and in need of repair, or (god forbid!) in the future/post 2004 when it has been completed.
    i’m hoping it will be late 80s….and in the same time with our remaining O6ers. post-rousseau, and pre-purge.

  461. shellonius funk says:

    that last link of mine didn’t work for me. it’s a screen cap of the other night.
    maybe this one will work.

    http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1469-5.html

  462. Rita says:

    [quote comment="317044"][quote comment="316435"]Also, one other thing, I thought that once you turned the FDW you could never return to the island. So how did Locke and Ben end up back there?[/quote]

    _________________________________________________________

    It was a lie Ben told Locke last season. He said Locke needed to stay on the island and be the leader. Lying Ben.[/quote]
    _____________________________
    PERHAPS … Ben knew (after Locke told him) that ALL the LOSTies had to go back – but he himself was not likely to get to go back with them, unless he took matters into his own hands. He killed Locke, after finding out about Hawkings, so he could go see her himself, probably telling her that Widmore sent him, or that Jacob said everyone had to go back, words she needed to hear in order to take the next steps (which she would have done with Locke if HE had come instead). This way, he could find out about the plane and put himself on it. He might not have been party to the info otherwise.

  463. Rita says:

    [quote comment="316778"][quote comment="316742"] It’s bad enough I have to read 400 posts, 1 day after the dang show.[/quote]
    Cut out all the repeating of answers and it really is only about 100.:) Whenever I read “AS I stated earlier…”, I skip right over it. If you stated something earlier, why do you feel the need to state it again?

    LOSTBLOG TIP #1: For all the newbies out there, You can condense the “QUOTES and REPLY”. Just make sure you include the beginning ( qoute comment ) with the brackets, and the ending ( /qoute ) with the brackets.

    Maybe that would condense the blog a little.

    DISCLAIMER: The term newbie is in no way intended to be offensive. The author of this tip is not responsible for mistakes on the posting.[/quote]
    __________________________________
    2nd Blogging tip: As a special courtesy, PLEASE draw a line, like you see above my post, when adding to a re-post. If you don’t, it is difficult to tell where one poster ends, and the new post begins, as only the first post comes up as shadow. Your ideas will get better attention and debate if they aren’t so difficult to sort out of a long block of text. Many of you are already doing this, so THANK YOU!!!

    3rd blogging tip: If you REALLY just have to post your idea without being able to read ALL the comments, then do a search for keywords (ctrl and F on your computer, and when the little screen pops up, enter your search words), and you will be able to see right away whether or not anyone else has said the same thing, or already replied to the post you are about to reply to. Just an idea, but it would make reading the posts flow a bit more smoothly.
    Thanks, and keep the theories flowing! LOVE THIS BLOG!!!

  464. ESB says:

    [quote comment="317044"][quote comment="316435"]Also, one other thing, I thought that once you turned the FDW you could never return to the island. So how did Locke and Ben end up back there?[/quote]

    _________________________________________________________

    It was a lie Ben told Locke last season. He said Locke needed to stay on the island and be the leader. Lying Ben.[/quote]

    **********************************

    haha, good rule of thumb…if Ben says it, then you can probably consider it a lie…at best, a partial truth…;)

  465. Rita says:

    [quote comment="317060"][quote comment="317044"][quote comment="316435"]Also, one other thing, I thought that once you turned the FDW you could never return to the island. So how did Locke and Ben end up back there?[/quote]

    _________________________________________________________

    It was a lie Ben told Locke last season. He said Locke needed to stay on the island and be the leader. Lying Ben.[/quote]

    **********************************

    haha, good rule of thumb…if Ben says it, then you can probably consider it a lie…at best, a partial truth…;)[/quote]
    ___________________________________
    Whatever else Ben is, he’s DANGEROUS!!!

  466. Pterradon says:

    I noticed a small thing that I think is just a continuity error, but I want to mention it just in case. When Locke writes his suicide note, the word “believed” is one continuous word. When Jack reads the suicide note, the word “believed” has a break in it so that it reads “be” “lieved”. They are two different notes, but I can’t figure out if it means anything.

  467. Skweez says:

    [quote comment="317045"]OK, another thought:
    I was thinking, during all the “runway” debate (don’t worry, not bringing it back up!) that the island isn’t actually visable from the air is it? I mean, if a pilot were looking down, and saw an unknown island, wouldn’t he wonder what THAT place was? Why it wasn’t on any map? Why, when he flew over the same spot next flight, that it wasn’t there anymore? If he were flying over a “window” where the island might conceivably be visable, then wouldn’t the plane crash -every time – like this would be a pretty routine occurance?
    What I’m trying to say, is that runway or no runway, it doesn’t seem likely that any pilot would be able to AIM for a particular landing spot while the plane is shaking/flashing/people disappearing/people getting thrown about. It seems more likely that the pilot (Frank or co-pilot) had to go for what he thought would be a water landing out in the middle of the ocean, and just ended up on mystery island. If he ended up in a place that someone (through time travel?) had already forseen, then a “runway” might have been cleared to help more people survive. Just a thought.

    Along the same lines, I’ve always wondered (well, since Jughead anyway) HOW the army was able to send in soldiers, wave after wave, attempting to take care of Jughead. HOW did Jughead get there, but more importantly, how did the soldiers not only get there, but how did the NEXT soldiers get there, etc.? Was the island not hidden then? Was it visable in the past and not moving about? Doesn’t seem likely, so there must be another explanation – what is it?[/quote]

    *****************************

    Rita, I think the “war” that Widmore mentions is with the military. The pic in the Lamp Post was “top secret”. The “help me” from Jacob to Locke was not about Ben but about fighting the “war”.

  468. Skweez says:

    Now, here’s what I find strange. Jacob/Christian tells Locke that he has to “move” the island. We know from what Hawking’s said in last week’s episode, that the island is always moving. If that is true, which I think it is, why would the island have to be “moved”? Also, why didn’t Christian/Jacob tell Locke HOW to move the island. When Locke falls down the well, Christian tells him that Ben wasn’t supposed to turn the FDW. But if he didn’t, the flashes wouldn’t have happenned and he wouldn’t have met up with Guyliner to get the instructions to bring the O6 back. And let’s say that Locke somehow figured out how to “move” the island or he did get instructions from Jacon/Christian, he would have ended up in Tunisia with no mission and no idea how to get back. Any thoughts?

  469. gmta leah says:

    For anyone wondering what the time difference is on/off island, 1 day on island is equal to 10.13 days off island.So 108 days equals 1095days equals 3 years.

  470. gmta leah says:

    [quote comment="317145"]For anyone wondering what the time difference is on/off island, 1 day on island is equal to 10.13 days off island.So 108 days equals 1095days equals 3 years.[/quote]
    //////////////////
    approx….

  471. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317145"]For anyone wondering what the time difference is on/off island, 1 day on island is equal to 10.13 days off island.So 108 days equals 1095days equals 3 years.[/quote]

    Do you mind sharing your SOURCE for those numbers? Because to me, they don’t make any sense at ALL.

    O815 left Sydney 9/22/2004 and crashed. O6 were rescued 108 days later in January 2005, OFF ISLAND TIME. Ben turned the FDW and arrived in Tunisia in October 2005. EVEN IF the FDW didn’t throw him ahead ten months, there is no way to make that 108 days into three years.

    : ) P

  472. gmta leah says:

    [quote comment="317149"][quote comment="317145"]For anyone wondering what the time difference is on/off island, 1 day on island is equal to 10.13 days off island.So 108 days equals 1095days equals 3 years.[/quote]

    Do you mind sharing your SOURCE for those numbers? Because to me, they don’t make any sense at ALL.

    O815 left Sydney 9/22/2004 and crashed. O6 were rescued 108 days later in January 2005, OFF ISLAND TIME. Ben turned the FDW and arrived in Tunisia in October 2005. EVEN IF the FDW didn’t throw him ahead ten months, there is no way to make that 108 days into three years.

    : ) P[/quote]
    The 06 were on the island 108 days .yes?
    Had three years passed since they crashed (off island)?

  473. gmta leah says:

    [quote comment="316628"][quote comment="316525"][quote comment="316503"]Let me shed some more light on how I’m thinking….

    I believe about 100 days or so passed for the o6 between the crash of 815 and their rescue, however, in the off island real time line about 3 years passed.

    Maybe the o6 were not supposed to leave because some of them died somewhere between 2001 and 2004 in the real time line off the island. However, on the island time line they were not dead yet because they had not reached the year 2004 yet (remember only 100 days or so had gone by). This would mean that if they left the island and came back to the real time line passed a time when they were supposed to be dead (in this case the year 2004) that would create a time paradox.

    Now they all have to go back to course correct.[/quote]
    I disagree with this. I think enough evidence has been given in past seasons to show that the date on the island (prior to Ben turning FDW) is the same as the date off island. Think of Ben telling Jack the Red Sox won the World Series (which occurred in October 2004), and then Lapidus confirming it. And the news coverage of their rescue didn’t mention 3 years time had elapsed. And the 2004 calendar that was on the freighter. And in “the Constant”, Desmond calls Penny on Dec 24, 2004. And…. I’ll stop there.[/quote]

    I respectfully disagree. They have never shown the date on the island. They only say how many days have passed since the crash. If they were marooned on the island for only about 100 days than how is it that the rest of the world is in 2004? The freighter left the real world so ofcourse the calendar would reflect the real world date. Ben knows and told Jack that the Red Sox won because Ben has been off the island and back. That does not mean that island time is the same as real world time. They were rescued in 2004 and they crashed in 2001 that would be about 3 years, or do you disagree with the dates of the crash and rescue? Desmond calls Penny thinking he is in another time. He only recognizes that it is 2004 by looking at the calendar and his flashes.

    Contrary to what you have said I believe that the opposite has been shown with time. I believe Faraday has shown numerous times that island time is not in synch with the rest of the world… the rocket experiment, the dead doctor washing up on the shore, and the time difference for islanders vs. Desmond and Sayid on the helicopter getting to the freighter.

    Either their are multiple timelines or time can loop like the time loop theory.[/quote]
    I WORKED IT OUT FROM THIS POST,RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY.sorry about shouting.as you know i have always believed island time different than real time.

  474. Rita says:

    [quote comment="317141"]Now, here’s what I find strange. Jacob/Christian tells Locke that he has to “move” the island. We know from what Hawking’s said in last week’s episode, that the island is always moving. If that is true, which I think it is, why would the island have to be “moved”? Also, why didn’t Christian/Jacob tell Locke HOW to move the island. When Locke falls down the well, Christian tells him that Ben wasn’t supposed to turn the FDW. But if he didn’t, the flashes wouldn’t have happenned and he wouldn’t have met up with Guyliner to get the instructions to bring the O6 back. And let’s say that Locke somehow figured out how to “move” the island or he did get instructions from Jacon/Christian, he would have ended up in Tunisia with no mission and no idea how to get back. Any thoughts?[/quote]
    ___________________________________
    Possibly, if you are truly the leader, you should just already know.
    Skweez, I don’t understand your reply to my comment 469 – it doesn’t seem to relate to anything that I actually asked. Am I misunderstanding you?

  475. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317151"]The 06 were on the island 108 days .yes?
    Had three years passed since they crashed (off island)?[/quote]

    No. See post 321 which directly refutes post 317 upon which your post 471 is based. There is an inherent danger in basing theories upon information which comes from other theories upon which there is no factual basis. (In this case, “factual” means canon from LOST and not, in fact, “fact” since this is, in fact, a fictional show.)

    LOL.

    : ) P

  476. LizS says:

    Well, quite the episode! I don’t know if you need my 2cents, but hey, when has that ever stopped me!!

    re: Ben/Widmore–gosh, that was a terrible scene with Ben killing Locke!!

    I think it had to be premeditated, as others have discussed–and it looked to me that Ben was surprised by John’s knowledge of Hawking, but not necessarily surprised about Hawking herself. There have been a few of those–surprise to Ben moments. The Master Manipulator doesn’t know all the connections–but he is still able to act quickly and take advantage of every changing circumstance.

    We just don’t know (yet) what his end game is. You can make a case for all sorts of good/bad theories based on evidence in the show–but I can’t get past the fact that Ben committed fratricide. Yes, daddy was not very nice to him, but I choose to believe that you can solve (most) problems without resorting to murder!

    As for Widmore, as we meet him as a young man, the first 5 minutes, he’s killing one of his own. And, OK, maybe he’s mellowed a bit, and MAYBE includes John Locke in the US of the US v. THEM of his personal equations, but if you’re in the THEM, I’m thinking he’s not going to have a problem eliminating you.

    Although, he did send Desmond (manipulate) off to the island, not kill him, to get rid of him. Still, given the death rate there, maybe he had a good hope of the outcome. ; )

    IMO, Locke is being played by both. Let him REALLY be the leader, and knock Ben and Widdy’s heads together and make them play nice!

  477. Flyboy says:

    [quote comment="317145"]For anyone wondering what the time difference is on/off island, 1 day on island is equal to 10.13 days off island.So 108 days equals 1095days equals 3 years.[/quote]

    ******************

    I think the time difference on the island is not a constant. I think it was something small (hours and minutes) for a long time and somehow now it is growing farther and wider apart from the real world possibly heading for a tear in the space time continuum. The main question is: why is it getting worse and what has to be done to correct it? Could it be the hatch being blown up or some other event like the rescue of the O6 which Locke and others have constantly said should not have happened.

    Clearly the time difference is getting worse according to Faraday’s (physicist, scientist, etc.) observations and comments.

  478. Flyboy says:

    [quote comment="317236"]

    IMO, Locke is being played by both. Let him REALLY be the leader, and knock Ben and Widdy’s heads together and make them play nice![/quote]

    *************

    I couldn’t agree more. Lock is in the process of learning his life’s lesson which seems to be to stop getting manipulated by everyone. I think Locke seems very different now since the ‘resurrection’. He seems much more content and confident. He seems like he finally knows that he IS SPECIAL.

  479. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="316534"]

    Similarly, in a recent episode, when Ben gave Sun Jin’s ring, Ben said Locke gave it to him. And Sun said something like, why didn’t Locke give it to me himself. This implies that Locke visited Sun as well. [/quote]

    I took it to mean “why didn’t Locke come and visit me and give me that message.”

  480. Flyboy says:

    I believe that Locke is going to play an important role in the end game of this show. For a while I thought he would simply be a character that just gets manipulated over and over till his death occurred. Then I realized that he clearly is special and will have some crucial part in all of this. He doesn’t appear to just be a man who is constantly fighting self doubt of whether or not he is special anymore. He now appears to be someone who KNOWS he is special.

  481. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="317045"]

    Along the same lines, I’ve always wondered (well, since Jughead anyway) HOW the army was able to send in soldiers, wave after wave, attempting to take care of Jughead. HOW did Jughead get there, but more importantly, how did the soldiers not only get there, but how did the NEXT soldiers get there, etc.? Was the island not hidden then? Was it visable in the past and not moving about? Doesn’t seem likely, so there must be another explanation – what is it?[/quote]
    I think there was only one grou of soldiers that made it to the island. The others thought our TT losties were more American soldiers but they wern’t.

  482. Flyboy says:

    Also, no one has mentioned this yet.

    The fact that Locke remembers his death and that all the other characters on the show can see him is very significant.

    It signifies that all these other dead people that we have been wondering about could also be real and not just apparitions.

    Charlie – Hurley saw him, but so did the other guy at the psych ward.

    Christian – Jack saw him, but so did Locke and Claire.

    What does this tell us?

    I’m not sure…. still working on it.

  483. Circus Mom says:

    I beleive that Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid and Sun are all in the 70’s together. They flashed out of the plane to the 70’s because they were supposed to be with the other losties. I don’t think Jack flashed out of the first plane. Someone would have probably said something about it and the island wasn’t skipping then. I will concede that if he had been there before (perhaps born there) and if there was a 30 minute time diff. then he could have flashed.

    I don’t think Frank flashed, perhaps because he wasn’t on 815 so he wasn’t tied to them. This would also mean that he wasn’t born on the island like Charlotte and Miles, and perhaps Daniel.

    Thinking aboout Frank. I really beleive Sun is in the 70’s so who is with Frank? Hawking, Penny, Cindy, Rachel, Sarah, Carol, Diane, Cassidy or someone new? The redhead who got on the plane between Hurley and Ben? She could be Annie or Charlotte’s sister.

    Frank has the manifest, he memorized the manifest from 815. He was excited to find out Juliette wasn’t on 815 and called her a naitive (I beleive).

    Was Frank on the island before? Was Frank banned from flying 815 because he was a drunk or did he become a drunk because he was banned.

    I think Frank is very inportant to the story right now. Want to know what is up with him. Who is her working for? What does he know about the island and how.

  484. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="317060"][quote comment="317044"][quote comment="316435"]Also, one other thing, I thought that once you turned the FDW you could never return to the island. So how did Locke and Ben end up back there?[/quote]

    _________________________________________________________

    It was a lie Ben told Locke last season. He said Locke needed to stay on the island and be the leader. Lying Ben.[/quote]

    **********************************

    haha, good rule of thumb…if Ben says it, then you can probably consider it a lie…at best, a partial truth…;)[/quote]
    ______________

    I’m not so sure Ben was deliberatly lying. I am a little confused here.
    First, when Locke came out of Jacob’s cabin and Ben asked him what Jacob wanted them to do, Locke said “He wants US to move the island”.
    Second- But, later Christian tells Locke that Ben was NOT supposed to move the island- Locke was.
    So, did Jacob tell Locke “I want YOU to move the island” and Locke just took it to mean that it could either be him OR Ben moving it? Or did Locke lie to Ben about what Jacob said?

  485. Rita says:

    [quote comment="317276"][quote comment="317060"][quote comment="317044"][quote comment="316435"]Also, one other thing, I thought that once you turned the FDW you could never return to the island. So how did Locke and Ben end up back there?[/quote]

    _________________________________________________________

    It was a lie Ben told Locke last season. He said Locke needed to stay on the island and be the leader. Lying Ben.[/quote]

    **********************************

    haha, good rule of thumb…if Ben says it, then you can probably consider it a lie…at best, a partial truth…;)[/quote]
    ______________

    I’m not so sure Ben was deliberatly lying. I am a little confused here.
    First, when Locke came out of Jacob’s cabin and Ben asked him what Jacob wanted them to do, Locke said “He wants US to move the island”.
    Second- But, later Christian tells Locke that Ben was NOT supposed to move the island- Locke was.
    So, did Jacob tell Locke “I want YOU to move the island” and Locke just took it to mean that it could either be him OR Ben moving it? Or did Locke lie to Ben about what Jacob said?[/quote]
    _______________________________________
    From LOST scripts:

    Locke: I’m coming with you.
    Ben: No you’re not.
    Locke: Jacob told me what to do.
    Ben: He told you what to do, not how to do it. He wants me to suffer the consequences.
    Locke: What consequences?
    Ben: Whoever moves the island, can never return

    I take this as Locke KNEW HE was suppose to move the island but he let Ben talk him into HIS plan. Ben said he always has a plan. He knew this was his ticket off the island so he could go after Widmore’s daughter (Penny or another daughter?). Possibly the “…can never return” part was a lie, his manipulation, because it would make him sound noble to Locke.

  486. RGS says:

    Great catch Rita @487, I was looking for that.

    Time difference on the island are NOT constant, they are random and unpredictable. That is what Faraday established early on. When he talks about something getting worse he is referencing the dramatic flashes that were occurring.

    The flight crashed in 2004 not 2001.

    To the extent that island time differs from real time, it is not something that can be extrapolated with any consistency.

    GMTA, in this past episode, Locke tells Widmore that it had been 4 days since he saw him in his camp, yet at least 50 years had passed, how do you resolve that discrepancy?

  487. RGS says:

    Why also when Locke has been told by Widmore, that he’ll do everything in his power to help him get the O6 back, does he not push “2-3” on his int’l phone, instead of lamenting away?

    You guys were probably right about Libby being a Widmore plant to get Desmond the boat to race across the world.

    I’m not quite ready to claim that Widmore is good, but I’m definitely leaning toward lesser of the two evils…far lesser. I’m thinking Locke will be the replacement leader, replacing Widmore and Ben. The impending war Widmore references is either with US military, or the war between Widmore and Ben, but I’m not thinking Widmore wants to get back on the island. I think he’s been protecting it from the outside, and just wanted Ben removed.

  488. RGS says:

    Ok PJ, I was standing on my coffee table, re-watching the episode in HD, with my Xbox controller wrapped around my neck, inching my way toward the edge of the table about to jump off, emotional because I felt I failed in totally convincing you of my earlier point. As I rewatched the murder scene I realized why I thought the flight Ben mentioned was Jack’s first flight.

    Sure Ben says, “whatever you said to him worked” and the average viewer would think Ben meant he was referencing a conversation between Locke and Jack that happened that night, but I’m not dealing with an average viewer…I’m dealing with viewers with analytical skills that rival some of the top scholars of our time (our LOST time that is.

    Anyway, so there I was, about to jump, when it hit me…riddle me this… The CUTS on John’s face from the car crash are still very much in the early stages of healing (surely your HD set is revealing this). Meaning that he RECENTLY got out of the hospital. It would not take a month for cuts to heal, and they certainly would be much further along than where they are before he is murdered by Ben.

    Therefore it is my opinion that it was not a month that had passed between Locke and Jack’s encounter, rather a day or two, and then Ben murders Locke and then maybe on Jack’s next flight he reads the obituary. All that to say, there is a continuity error in the show. (In my Ace Ventura Pet Detective When Nature Calls voice and mannerism) “Damn I’m good!!! Can you feel-that, can-you-feel-it? Captain-Compost?”

  489. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="317289"]Ok PJ, I was standing on my coffee table, re-watching the episode in HD, with my Xbox controller wrapped around my neck, inching my way toward the edge of the table about to jump off, emotional because I felt I failed in totally convincing you of my earlier point. As I rewatched the murder scene I realized why I thought the flight Ben mentioned was Jack’s first flight.

    Sure Ben says, “whatever you said to him worked” and the average viewer would think Ben meant he was referencing a conversation between Locke and Jack that happened that night, but I’m not dealing with an average viewer…I’m dealing with viewers with analytical skills that rival some of the top scholars of our time (our LOST time that is.

    Anyway, so there I was, about to jump, when it hit me…riddle me this… The CUTS on John’s face from the car crash are still very much in the early stages of healing (surely your HD set is revealing this). Meaning that he RECENTLY got out of the hospital. It would not take a month for cuts to heal, and they certainly would be much further along than where they are before he is murdered by Ben.

    Therefore it is my opinion that it was not a month that had passed between Locke and Jack’s encounter, rather a day or two, and then Ben murders Locke and then maybe on Jack’s next flight he reads the obituary. All that to say, there is a continuity error in the show. (In my Ace Ventura Pet Detective When Nature Calls voice and mannerism) “Damn I’m good!!! Can you feel-that, can-you-feel-it? Captain-Compost?”[/quote]
    You are also all assuming that Locke’s body was found right after he was killed. Who found him, he had no-one in his life. He could have hung there for a extended time before the smell got to the neighbors.

  490. RGS says:

    Interesting point Circus but in S4E13:

    HURLEY: And why would I go anywhere with you? I haven’t seen you in, like, forever.
    SAYID: Because circumstances have changed.
    HURLEY: What circumstances?
    [Sayid takes a step closer to the table.]
    SAYID: Bentham’s dead.
    [This causes Hurley to look back up at Sayid.]
    HURLEY: What?
    SAYID: Two days ago.
    HURLEY: What happened?
    SAYID: They said it was suicide.

    In my mind this exchange shows that Bentham was killed two days ago, not body found two days ago, but it is classic semi-ambiguous Lost language.

  491. RGS says:

    [quote comment="317295"]Interesting point Circus but in S4E13:

    HURLEY: And why would I go anywhere with you? I haven’t seen you in, like, forever.
    SAYID: Because circumstances have changed.
    HURLEY: What circumstances?
    [Sayid takes a step closer to the table.]
    SAYID: Bentham’s dead.
    [This causes Hurley to look back up at Sayid.]
    HURLEY: What?
    SAYID: Two days ago.
    HURLEY: What happened?
    SAYID: They said it was suicide.

    In my mind this exchange shows that Bentham was killed two days ago, not body found two days ago, but it is classic semi-ambiguous Lost language.[/quote]

    Oh yeah, he would have been found rather quickly since he was staying at a hotel…the Westerfield Hotel.

  492. DocH says:

    re: Linus & Widmore

    Alpert is their connection to the ‘roots’ of the island. Widmore was with the island and under Alpert when we saw him. At some point in his 30 year stint on the island he was elevated to a leadership position. Linus has been with the island for decades. He started under Alpert and was elevated to a leadership position, like Widmore. What we think we know is that Widmore was exiled. Ben hasn’t been officially exiled. But Locke being chosen suggests that Linus is on the outs. Linus is still closely tied to Alpert and the mission they have. Widmore is not. So if we are saying pro-Alpert and pro-island is the lesser of two evils, then Widmore is the greater of two evils… being exiled and all.

  493. RGS says:

    [quote comment="317301"]re: Linus & Widmore

    Alpert is their connection to the ‘roots’ of the island. Widmore was with the island and under Alpert when we saw him. At some point in his 30 year stint on the island he was elevated to a leadership position. Linus has been with the island for decades. He started under Alpert and was elevated to a leadership position, like Widmore. What we think we know is that Widmore was exiled. Ben hasn’t been officially exiled. But Locke being chosen suggests that Linus is on the outs. Linus is still closely tied to Alpert and the mission they have. Widmore is not. So if we are saying pro-Alpert and pro-island is the lesser of two evils, then Widmore is the greater of two evils… being exiled and all.[/quote]

    That is a logical take, however I would disagree that Linus is closely tied to Alpert and the current mission that they have. My reasoning is that Ben has got some kind of hold on Jacob. Alternatively, Alpert has already expressed to John that they want him to be their leader, which would then remove Ben from the close ties.

    Finally, IF Ben tricked Widmore into leaving, he could conceivably have tricked Alpert into believing something negative about Widmore, thus Alpert would not have questioned the need to remove Widmore. If he has some kind of hold on Jacob he could pull it off easier.

  494. Circus Mom says:

    Just had a great laugh. Watching a horrible movie called Copperhead (2008) on SciFi. They are about to lock the women and children in the bank vault to protect them from the swarm of snakes. As they head to the bank the bank manager says, “The combination is 15-16-23-42.”

    Just for extra laughs, when I checked IMDB I read the goofs which said,

    When the cowboys go into the barn and discover all the horses are dead (killed by the snakes) they hear a commotion in the saloon and all run back out into the street. When they leave, a “dead” horse lifts its head up and looks around,

    Lost is everywhere.

  495. intolost says:

    Whoa!!! Okay, I cannot watch this episode again!

    Thoughts:

    *Okay, Ben has been a complete liar this entire series!

    *Why was Ben obviously shocked yet gleeful to learn that Jin is still alive? I suppose to use him to get Sun to do whatever he wants.

    *Ben, Widmore, Alpert, Hawking…all evil and in cahoots—it’s all just a big, nasty mind game on the losties so nobody knows the truth and everybody is too scared to talk.

    *building a “landing strip”—BS—you obviously have to crash–what are they building?

    *Hmmm….same plane, some crashed, some “transported”? Hmmmm….Well, then why didn’t we meet more original 815 losties that “transported”? Will we this season????

    *Glad to see Ben messed up from the crash!

    *Where did the outrigger canoes come from? I forgot.

    *Cesar & chick—-Obviously Widmore plants.

    *the lamppost—aaaahhhh–Narnia, of course!!!

    *I want to know what Sayid knows about Ben! There’s some real important stuff there, I’m sure.

    *Where and who the heck is Jacob?????

    *More Rousseau!

    *More Dr. Candle! Where’s Dr. Candle? I’m convinced that Candle is a huge connection here as he was head of Dharma! Is Candle Jacob?

    *Darn it! Where’s Charlie? : ( You all, everybody! Just kidding.

  496. intolost says:

    Oh, yeah. Did we previously meet Locke’s Helen? I can’t remember.

  497. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="317305"]Oh, yeah. Did we previously meet Locke’s Helen? I can’t remember.[/quote]
    Peggy Bundy

  498. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="317289"]
    Therefore it is my opinion that it was not a month that had passed between Locke and Jack’s encounter, rather a day or two, and then Ben murders Locke and then maybe on Jack’s next flight he reads the obituary. All that to say, there is a continuity error in the show. (In my Ace Ventura Pet Detective When Nature Calls voice and mannerism) “Damn I’m good!!! Can you feel-that, can-you-feel-it? Captain-Compost?”[/quote]
    Nice catch on the continuity error. But we know it was a month, not a day or 2.

    From S4E13

    BEN: When did you speak to him?

    JACK: (Inhales deeply) About a month ago.

  499. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="317311"][quote comment="317305"]Oh, yeah. Did we previously meet Locke’s Helen? I can’t remember.[/quote]
    Peggy Bundy[/quote]
    +++++++++++==
    You just made me shoot Diet Dr. Pepper out of my nose. LOL.

  500. Jay says:

    My recent, random thoughts (for what little these musings are worth):

    -The island was formerly known as Atlantis or Lemuria/Mu
    -Some believe that Lemuria was inhabited by “extraterrestrials”
    -Many ancient civilizations (Egypt, Greece, etc) were thought to be influenced by Atlantis/Lemuria
    -The temple and hieroglyphics throughout the show support this ancient premise
    -The frozen donkey wheel was originally built to be pulled by donkeys
    -The island’s first vanishing led to the Atlantis disappearance mythology
    -Richard Alpert and Jacob are original denizens of the island
    -Widmore and Ben are both evil and neither is really concerned about what is best for the island
    -Widmore and Ben are the skeletons in the cave
    -The coming war may or may not be between Ben and Widmore
    -Widmore was never leader of the others
    -Ms Hawking is the young women with the rifle on the island during “jughead”
    -Ms. Hawking is Daniel Faraday’s mom
    -Widmore is Faraday’s dad
    -Faraday is Penny’s brother or half brother
    -Ben had kept Jacob “locked” in the cabin: Ben had somehow taken control and the island is doing what it can to protect itself from Ben
    -The donkey wheel is only one way off the island: Ben has another portal somewhere in the secret room under his house- it does not lead to Tunisia
    -Abbaddon (The Destroyer, etc) will be back

  501. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317289"]Ok PJ, I was standing on my coffee table, re-watching the episode in HD, with my Xbox controller wrapped around my neck, inching my way toward the edge of the table about to jump off, emotional because I felt I failed in totally convincing you of my earlier point. As I rewatched the murder scene I realized why I thought the flight Ben mentioned was Jack’s first flight.[/quote]

    Okay, after I stopped laughing, because you have a GREAT sense of humor, I thought, gees, maybe my logic is faulty? RGS has a point. But wait, there HAS to be a reason I felt so strongly about this. So I did some more research.

    Then I found the part in the script that supports my point. Then I read to the END of the posts to see if anyone else had responded to you (because I am a rule follower, you know) and answered. I see that Lost4ever had already found that part of the script from “There’s No Place Like Home.” L4E didn’t include a line that I found equally compelling, so I will list it here (it follows the exchange L4E listed above – in the same conversation):

    BEN: Yes, I heard that you’ve been flying on passenger planes… hoping that you’d crash. It’s dark, Jack, very dark.

    I hope that you’ll put the Xbox controller away, RGS. It might be painful, and I am pretty sure the island won’t LET you die. *g*

    : ) P

  502. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="317410"]
    -Widmore and Ben are the skeletons in the cave
    [/quote]
    So is Ben the female skeleton then?

    From S1E6

    LOCKE: Clearly. But, who were these men?

    JACK: Actually, one of them is female.

    LOCKE: Our very own Adam and Eve.

  503. intolost says:

    Peggy Bundy???

  504. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="317418"]Peggy Bundy???[/quote]
    The role of Helen was played by the actress Katey Sagal who appeared in 2 different LOST episodes. She will always be Peggy Bundy to me, as that is where I first saw her. Married with Children.

    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005408/

  505. Jay says:

    Jay wrote:
    -Widmore and Ben are the skeletons in the cave
    So is Ben the female skeleton then?
    From S1E6
    LOCKE: Clearly. But, who were these men?
    JACK: Actually, one of them is female.
    LOCKE: Our very own Adam and Eve.
    *** ok. Oops. What if Jack didn’t do well in skeletal anatomy… Oh well.

  506. babsala says:

    Four Toes

    I tried to read through all of the posts, whew. Did anyone see how many toes Locke had when they did the shot of the cast and his foot? I could only see four, but it went by so fast.

  507. duke says:

    [quote comment="317287"]Great catch Rita @487, I was looking for that.

    Time difference on the island are NOT constant, they are random and unpredictable. That is what Faraday established early on. When he talks about something getting worse he is referencing the dramatic flashes that were occurring.

    The flight crashed in 2004 not 2001.

    To the extent that island time differs from real time, it is not something that can be extrapolated with any consistency.

    GMTA, in this past episode, Locke tells Widmore that it had been 4 days since he saw him in his camp, yet at least 50 years had passed, how do you resolve that discrepancy?[/quote]
    TIME TRAVEL explains the discrepency. The time differences are apparent but my guess is that they have gotten worse since the FDW was off its axis.

  508. DocH says:

    [quote comment="317423"] What if Jack didn’t do well in skeletal anatomy…[/quote]
    I am going suggest that he may have done alright in ‘skeletal anatonmy’… seeing how he is highly regarded for ‘spinal’ surgery. I could be wrong, but isn’t the spine the part of the skeleton that connects all of the parts of the skeleton together?

  509. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317248"]
    I think the time difference on the island is not a constant. I think it was something small (hours and minutes) for a long time and somehow now it is growing farther and wider apart from the real world possibly heading for a tear in the space time continuum. The main question is: why is it getting worse and what has to be done to correct it? Could it be the hatch being blown up or some other event like the rescue of the O6 which Locke and others have constantly said should not have happened.

    Clearly the time difference is getting worse according to Faraday’s (physicist, scientist, etc.) observations and comments.[/quote]

    Are you talking about the “flashes” where the RLOSTies are time traveling? The flashes were occurring more FREQUENTLY toward the end of S5E5 (This Place is Death), but the time to which they were traveling wasn’t consistent.

    From LOSTpedia:

    Flash 1: 2001 or 2002
    Flash 2: After January 2005
    Flash 3: 2001 or 2002
    Flash 4: Late 1954
    Flash 5: November 1, 2004 (Aaron’s birthday)
    Flash 6: after January 2008 (presumably after the A316 crash)
    Flash 7: November 1988
    Flash 8: Early 1989
    Flash 9: unknown
    Flash 10: unknown
    Flash 11: unknown
    Flash 12: after the Orchid was destroyed
    Flash 13: between when the well was built and when the Orchid was built
    Flash 14: before the well was drilled
    Flash 15: presumably DHARMA time

    If you are talking about the disparity between island time and off island time BEFORE the time flashes (ie. the rocket and the dead doctor), then why do you think they are getting worse?

    : ) P

  510. LostJunkie says:

    Just to preface my comments, I started watching the show last summer on DVD, and within 3 weeks I was up to speed before the premiere of Season 5 in January. One night I watched about 15 hours in a row until the next day–only Lost could do that! While I am not sure the show has been as compelling this season, at least we are getting some answers and I suspect it is going to get REALLY good, and soon. Here are some of my observations…

    I agree with an earlier person that alluded to much of this being “a game” or a mind-test, and that certain people could be working in concert with one another, like Widmore, Ben, Hawking, etc. They test Locke to see if he will kill his own father; they test Kate/Sawyer when they put them in the cages, knowing romance could result. They test Kate/Jack to see what they would do when Sawyer was about to get killed (remember Kate screaming out in tears “they’re gonna kill Sawyer!”). Those are just some examples that immediately came to my mind, and even last episode, both Widmore AND Ben are playing mind-games with Locke, it could be argued…how does Locke know which man to believe? They both tell him similar things, like he’s special, they want to help him get back to the Island, etc. He could have reason to trust Widmore, who tells him he hasn’t tried to kill him. He has reason to trust Ben, because Widmore was the guy who sent the freighter to basically wipe out the Island. There is definitely an element of mind-testing on this show in my opinion. I’ve heard people say Locke is just a pawn, but I think the argument could be made that many of them have been used as pawns.

    I agree that Ben without question has some sort of a hold on Jacob. When they went to Jacob’s cabin in that eerie scene, Jacob certainly appears to be in distress and needs help, asking Locke directly for it. With Ben right there, you just get the sense that Jacob needs Locke to do something to “release” him. And then, of course, Ben is the one to move the Island, which could have screwed everything up. Maybe if Locke kills Ben, that will release Jacob. Who knows.

    Speaking of Jacob, I think it’s highly interesting that Ben was willing to have Locke learn of Jacob and even go to his cabin, but the mere mention of Hawking’s name visibly upsets Ben. The clear implication is that Locke knew too much, that he wasn’t supposed to have knowledge of Hawking. Maybe if Locke got to Hawking, Ben was fearful that Locke could gain the knowledge as to how to release Jacob, or something even more profound. Ben has been using Locke, but when he found out Locke knew of Hawking’s existence, Ben had to eliminate him because that represented a serious threat to everything Ben is trying to do. It’s going to be a great moment when Ben sees that Locke is now undead!

    Ben, while brilliant in terms of his manipulative leadership, I don’t believe is the “special” person that the Others want to lead the Island, even though he was their leader. Locke was paralyzed, and once he got to the Island he wasn’t. He was dead, and he got back to the Island and wasn’t. Ben, in contrast, developed the cancer that would have killed him if not for Jack, while on the Island. Or, even if Ben had gotten the cancer off-Island, he still wasn’t cured once he got back to the Island. And that’s significant because Rose, after all, apparently was cured of her cancer from being on the Island.

    There has to be a coming explanation before the end of the series about the connection between Locke and Walt. This does not have the feel of simply a nice simple friendship between a fatherly older guy and a young kid. They are both constantly being called “special”, and Walt seems to treat Locke with a reverence almost immediately. Walt we know also can apparently see the future. This is like Desmond, but in contrast, Desmond is not told he’s special; in fact, Desmond is always being told he is the exact opposite, a quitter and a loser.

    I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Claire, and I don’t think Walt’s role on the show is done, either. It would be too convenient for the writers to just move on without Walt, given that he was on the plane before and that so many of the other 815 passengers went back. He has to have a role somehow to how this all plays out.

    Miles has definitely been on the Island before, as evidenced by his nosebleed occurring sooner than Sawyer and Juliet’s. Who is he connected to? Is he related to the DHARMA bigwig scientist we see in the Orientation tapes? Or, could he actually be that guy?

    Charlotte had of course been on the Island before, and my theory on how she knows Korean is that Jin taught it to her in the 70’s when he became a DHARMA worker and Charlotte was little.

    I think Locke, Jack, and Walt are all candidates to end up being the Island’s leader. Locke and Walt are “special”, and Jack is Christian Shephard’s son, after all. And Christian seemingly is acting as a helper of the Island.

    In terms of Kate likely being pregnant, I have an interesting theory. I wonder if she will have the baby on the Island like Claire did, but during the 1970’s, and I wonder if this child is somebody we know from the present-day time (2004-2008) on the Island or maybe off of it.

    I don’t think Penny is dead. This doesn’t make sense to me for the following reasons. We see Ben bloodied and beaten up from the marina pay-phone calling Jack. If he had killed Penny, there’s no way Penny would have put up SUCH a fight to injure Ben in that way. No way. He would have shown up with a gun and coldly killed her. And some have speculated that he did kill Penny and then Ben got beaten up by Desmond. NO WAY! If Desmond was close enough to Ben to rough him up that much from seeing his wife (and possibly his child) dead, he would have killed Ben. Period. No way he would have stopped with just a beating. I think what makes the most sense is that Sayid beat him up, because he had warned Ben that if he saw him again “it would be unpleasant”. I also don’t think the writers would have gone that route, as it would basically invalidate everything Desmond went through in order to reunite with Penny. I hope I’m right on this one, because Des and Penny share the most pure love on this show.

    Finally, I wonder if some of the people that we’ve seen die could come back somehow. I know Faraday said that you can’t change the past in terms of the space-time continuum, but could it be that that’s not true? I could envision a big reveal at the end of the season or next season where we see Charlie alive, for example. That wouldn’t shock me. Although with this show, nothing would!

    That’s all I got for now, folks. This is a great blog and some of you all really are smart cookies when it comes to Lost! I look forward to next week’s show to see what y’all think.

  511. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317508"]I don’t think Penny is dead. This doesn’t make sense to me for the following reasons. We see Ben bloodied and beaten up from the marina pay-phone calling Jack. If he had killed Penny, there’s no way Penny would have put up SUCH a fight to injure Ben in that way. No way. He would have shown up with a gun and coldly killed her. And some have speculated that he did kill Penny and then Ben got beaten up by Desmond. NO WAY! If Desmond was close enough to Ben to rough him up that much from seeing his wife (and possibly his child) dead, he would have killed Ben. Period. No way he would have stopped with just a beating. I think what makes the most sense is that Sayid beat him up, because he had warned Ben that if he saw him again “it would be unpleasant”. I also don’t think the writers would have gone that route, as it would basically invalidate everything Desmond went through in order to reunite with Penny. I hope I’m right on this one, because Des and Penny share the most pure love on this show.[/quote]

    I agree. When I saw Ben all bloodied, I immediately thought it was a run-in with Sayid. It could well be that Sayid sought out Desmond, or vice-versa and that Ben INTENDED to kill Penny and Sayid stood in the way, but I just don’t see Ben being successful. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that the reason Sayid stopped working for Ben was Widmore-related (not necessarily, but possibly a Widmore relative).

    : ) P

  512. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="317508"]
    They are both constantly being called “special”, and Walt seems to treat Locke with a reverence almost immediately. Walt we know also can apparently see the future. This is like Desmond, but in contrast, Desmond is not told he’s special; in fact, Desmond is always being told he is the exact opposite, a quitter and a loser.
    [/quote]

    I agree, Locke and Walt both appear to be “special”, after all, it was the title of Walt’s first backstory, S1E14. I thibk Desmond may also be special, as Faraday told him in the season 5 premier.

  513. LostJunkie says:

    In thinking a little more, I am starting to think that Widmore really does intend no harm to Locke. I don’t know how he feels about the other characters, but in the last episode we learned that Abaddon works for Widmore, and Abaddon is responsible for Locke going to Australia to try to go on the walkabout in the first place. Thus, Widmore WANTED Locke to make it to the island. And he must have known Locke was “special”, or would be cured of his paralysis, or both. So why would he want to harm Locke once he got off the island, or now that he’s back on it? This lends credence to the theory that Ben and Widmore are NOT on the same side, since Ben has attempted to kill Locke on more than one occasion.

    And I have a question about Flight 815. On the one hand, it seems possible that the sole reason that it crashed was because Desmond didn’t input the numbers into the computer in time at the Hatch on that fateful day. They seem to allude to that being the reason before Desmond turns the fail-safe key (he discovers it while looking through all the printouts right before that fateful moment where Locke destroys the computer, I think). But this seems to contradict something like Abaddon getting Locke to go to Australia–he (and Widmore) must have KNOWN the flight would end up on the Island. There’s no way it’s coincidence. And we know that Hawking pretty much knows where the Island is at all times, or it seemed that way 2 episodes ago. So couldn’t Hawking have known that 815 would have had a “window” over the Island similar to what she describes for Flight 316? But this begs another question: if Widmore knew Locke would make it to the Island, why then does he not know where the Island is at that time, since Hawking knows? Remember, he’s been looking for it for 20 years, and that doesn’t change until Desmond turns the fail-safe key. This seems to suggest that in some way, Hawking is not 100% in concert with Widmore, even though Widmore knows where Hawking is. And this leads to another question: with all of Widmore’s money, all his ability to track anybody he wants to, are we supposed to believe that Widmore knows where Hawking is, yet he doesn’t know that she is secretly operating the Lamp Post station beneath the church? I find that very hard to believe. What do you all think?

  514. Rita says:

    [quote comment="317410"]
    -The island was formerly known as Atlantis or Lemuria/Mu
    -Some believe that Lemuria was inhabited by “extraterrestrials”
    -Many ancient civilizations (Egypt, Greece, etc) were thought to be influenced by Atlantis/Lemuria
    -The temple and hieroglyphics throughout the show support this ancient premise

    -The island’s first vanishing led to the Atlantis disappearance mythology
    -Richard Alpert and Jacob are original denizens of the island

    [/quote]
    ______________________________________
    Not saying I think you are right, but having muled it over a bit, I think that if you WERE right, it might make some kind of sense. For example, all the searching for “special” children might be the “island” searching for the descendants of the original “Atlantians” – they test them, and watch them over time, to see if they are “special”, meaning truly the descendants. They reveal very little information to them, because if they really ARE the descendants, they would aready KNOW (like with Locke). Again, not saying I believe this, just exploring options.

  515. Frank says:

    Very interesting comments about a very interesting episode.

    This episode, especially Jeremy’s and Jack’s conversation, echoed SE1,SE2, and SE4 finales as John is always telling Jack about the island, what it is, why it’s special, why they have to go back. And finally, Ben gets Jack to abandon his doubt (wait until Jack sees John alive again).

    One thought triggered by rewatch of SE2 finale (Live Together, Die Alone)that sort of ties into this latest ep: Penny knows about the island all along. She has her men looking for electromagnetic anomolies. I know she’s looking for Desmond but how does she know he’s on the island? There’s more of her story to come (she is not dead).

  516. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="317248"][quote comment="317145"]For anyone wondering what the time difference is on/off island, 1 day on island is equal to 10.13 days off island.So 108 days equals 1095days equals 3 years.[/quote]

    ******************

    I think the time difference on the island is not a constant. I think it was something small (hours and minutes) for a long time and somehow now it is growing farther and wider apart from the real world possibly heading for a tear in the space time continuum. The main question is: why is it getting worse and what has to be done to correct it? Could it be the hatch being blown up or some other event like the rescue of the O6 which Locke and others have constantly said should not have happened.

    Clearly the time difference is getting worse according to Faraday’s (physicist, scientist, etc.) observations and comments.[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    Let’s look at what we know from observing, eh? Time losties spent on island was 108 days. Outside world experienced approximately the same time during that span. Evidence of Michael and his conversation with his mom. Evidence of the time referenced during the O6 press conference (if you are unsure, watch the eps.)

    The time difference only comes into play when you travel within the “bubble” that surrounds the island. Evidence of the Dan rocket experiment. Evidence of the doctor floating to shore.

    That narrows it down don’t you think? I don’t think we need to discuss the difference between on-island and off-island time anymore.

  517. sector7 says:

    God you people run the smallest detail about some hair-brained continuity error into the ground and use 20 posts to do it. Let it go… The show will be ok. Just let it go…

  518. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="317259"]Also, no one has mentioned this yet.

    The fact that Locke remembers his death and that all the other characters on the show can see him is very significant.

    It signifies that all these other dead people that we have been wondering about could also be real and not just apparitions.

    Charlie – Hurley saw him, but so did the other guy at the psych ward.

    Christian – Jack saw him, but so did Locke and Claire.

    What does this tell us?

    I’m not sure…. still working on it.[/quote]
    _____________________________________________
    You’re busted Flyguy — this is what I was talking about in post 414.

  519. sector7 says:

    Maybe it had to get to this point, but I can’t imagine anyone would believe anything Ben says from here on out.

  520. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317623"]God you people run the smallest detail about some hair-brained continuity error into the ground and use 20 posts to do it. Let it go… The show will be ok. Just let it go…[/quote]

    I think that disecting plot details is one of the POINTS of this blog, sector7. I recognize that you are probably weary of having to read over 500 blog posts, but please don’t take your weariness out on us! We’re all slogging through the posts, the difference is that some of us are doing it every few hours rather than trying to catch up all at once.

    Unless Jacob/Christian/Captain Eyeliner/Ben is holding you hostage in room 23 playing loud frenetic music, putting special goggles on and forcing you to read this, you don’t HAVE to come to this blog! LOL

    I agree that it can be frustrating when things are repeated ad nauseum. Hang in there, though. There are some really nice juicy theories coming out of these posts! It is often worth all the effort to read. *g*

    : ) P

  521. gmta leah says:

    [quote comment="317149"][quote comment="317145"]For anyone wondering what the time difference is on/off island, 1 day on island is equal to 10.13 days off island.So 108 days equals 1095days equals 3 years.[/quote]

    Do you mind sharing your SOURCE for those numbers? Because to me, they don’t make any sense at ALL.

    O815 left Sydney 9/22/2004 and crashed. O6 were rescued 108 days later in January 2005, OFF ISLAND TIME. Ben turned the FDW and arrived in Tunisia in October 2005. EVEN IF the FDW didn’t throw him ahead ten months, there is no way to make that 108 days into three years.

    : ) P[/quote]
    /////////////////////
    Bentham returned in dec 2007
    Why did jack tell locke/ bentham in the hospital that christian died in australia three years ago ?yet widmore told locke that the o6 had been back three years ?
    christian died in 2004 and 06 were rescued in 2005? …..Maybe just maybe i may have got my calculations arse upwards …it could be the Narnia hint.
    And yes sector7 ,i do think we need to discuss time differences some more . cos some of us only watched the blogs current episode last night , so im sorry if you tire of it. but after reading 500 plus posts ,just to catch up , (and thats before we watched the show ) you could maybe humour us a while longer ,eh?

  522. Skippy says:

    Cassidy (Sawyer’s duped ex) is another possible caretaker for Aaron. Maybe Kate fulfilled the promise she made Sawyer in the helo while simultaneously gaining Aaron protection? A little stretch, I know…Clare’s mom may be the more likely caretaker.
    Am just now watching Season 1 – WHY did the writers get rid of Charlie?! I know the story line from S2+, have read all the posts, but agree with some of you that he was one of the best and most invested actors on this show. So since John was resurrected, why not Charlie?

  523. londonboy says:

    It may not mean anything, but how did Widmore know that Ben had already tried to kill Locke?

    This is the mass burial pit shooting, right? Sun wasn’t part of the party Locke told his tall Walt story to and she’s the only one I can think of that would have told Widmore of an event happening on the island that only Ben and Locke were involved with?

    Does he have another source of info? Was this a writer’s flub? Or am I missing something?

    Loved that Hurley is more freaked out by seeing live people now that ghosts. And was it me, or did it not look like he was going to dismiss out of hand him going back to the island, like everyone else had done? He just didn’t think Locke would be able to convince everyone else.

    Whatever Ben’s motives for killing Locke, and however much he must have known that taking Locke’s body might have a purpose, he didn’t know about Christian’s shoes.

    The conversation with Jack on the plane in 316 seemed to indicate more to me that Ben realises or thinks Hawkings does not know he killed Locke. If there is an issue of sin that Locke couldn’t be allowed to die that way, Hawkings does not appear to know it, or she lied to Jack for some reason.

  524. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="317641"][quote comment="317149"][quote comment="317145"]For anyone wondering what the time difference is on/off island, 1 day on island is equal to 10.13 days off island.So 108 days equals 1095days equals 3 years.[/quote]

    Do you mind sharing your SOURCE for those numbers? Because to me, they don’t make any sense at ALL.

    O815 left Sydney 9/22/2004 and crashed. O6 were rescued 108 days later in January 2005, OFF ISLAND TIME. Ben turned the FDW and arrived in Tunisia in October 2005. EVEN IF the FDW didn’t throw him ahead ten months, there is no way to make that 108 days into three years.

    : ) P[/quote]
    /////////////////////
    Bentham returned in dec 2007
    Why did jack tell locke/ bentham in the hospital that christian died in australia three years ago ?yet widmore told locke that the o6 had been back three years ?
    christian died in 2004 and 06 were rescued in 2005? …..Maybe just maybe i may have got my calculations arse upwards …it could be the Narnia hint.
    And yes sector7 ,i do think we need to discuss time differences some more . cos some of us only watched the blogs current episode last night , so im sorry if you tire of it. but after reading 500 plus posts ,just to catch up , (and thats before we watched the show ) you could maybe humour us a while longer ,eh?[/quote]
    ___________________________________
    Did you read comment 518? What evidence can you site to contradict my findings?

  525. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="317638"][quote comment="317623"]God you people run the smallest detail about some hair-brained continuity error into the ground and use 20 posts to do it. Let it go… The show will be ok. Just let it go…[/quote]

    I think that disecting plot details is one of the POINTS of this blog, sector7. I recognize that you are probably weary of having to read over 500 blog posts, but please don’t take your weariness out on us! We’re all slogging through the posts, the difference is that some of us are doing it every few hours rather than trying to catch up all at once.

    Unless Jacob/Christian/Captain Eyeliner/Ben is holding you hostage in room 23 playing loud frenetic music, putting special goggles on and forcing you to read this, you don’t HAVE to come to this blog! LOL

    I agree that it can be frustrating when things are repeated ad nauseum. Hang in there, though. There are some really nice juicy theories coming out of these posts! It is often worth all the effort to read. *g*

    : ) P[/quote]
    _________________________________
    Agreed.

  526. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="317536"] I find that very hard to believe. What do you all think?[/quote]
    I think you have a lot of questions that have been brought up before that no one has the answers to, just tehories. What is yours?

  527. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="317621"][
    Let’s look at what we know from observing, eh? Time losties spent on island was 108 days.

    That narrows it down don’t you think? I don’t think we need to discuss the difference between on-island and off-island time anymore.[/quote]

    The LOSTies actually only spent 100 days on the island. The island was moved on day 100, they spent a week or so on Penny’s boat before the rescue. I completely agree with you though, the time difference is in the TRAVEL to and from the island. in fact, I thought it was pretty obvious from the experiements and Faraday’s explanation, last year.

  528. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="317658"][quote comment="317621"][
    Let’s look at what we know from observing, eh? Time losties spent on island was 108 days.

    That narrows it down don’t you think? I don’t think we need to discuss the difference between on-island and off-island time anymore.[/quote]

    The LOSTies actually only spent 100 days on the island. The island was moved on day 100, they spent a week or so on Penny’s boat before the rescue. I completely agree with you though, the time difference is in the TRAVEL to and from the island. in fact, I thought it was pretty obvious from the experiements and Faraday’s explanation, last year.[/quote]
    ________________________________________
    And yet, “a “dead” horse lifts its head up and looks around”…

  529. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="317615"]
    One thought triggered by rewatch of SE2 finale (Live Together, Die Alone)that sort of ties into this latest ep: Penny knows about the island all along. She has her men looking for electromagnetic anomolies. I know she’s looking for Desmond but how does she know he’s on the island? There’s more of her story to come (she is not dead).[/quote]
    I saw that too again on the WB. Although, I do not think she is dead, they could still tell the “more of her story” even if she was.:)
    IMO, she knows many things about her father and his past that we are unaware of. The island being one.

  530. gmta leah says:

    [quote comment="317435"][quote comment="317287"]Great catch Rita @487, I was looking for that.

    Time difference on the island are NOT constant, they are random and unpredictable. That is what Faraday established early on. When he talks about something getting worse he is referencing the dramatic flashes that were occurring.

    The flight crashed in 2004 not 2001.

    To the extent that island time differs from real time, it is not something that can be extrapolated with any consistency.

    GMTA, in this past episode, Locke tells Widmore that it had been 4 days since he saw him in his camp, yet at least 50 years had passed, how do you resolve that discrepancy?[/quote]
    TIME TRAVEL explains the discrepency. The time differences are apparent but my guess is that they have gotten worse since the FDW was off its axis.[/quote]
    ////////////////////
    ok. here s how i worked every thing out . Perhaps then every one can interpret it themselves and see where im going wrong.
    108 mins into 24 hours =13.3 times

    widmore met locke in middle of 1953=53.5
    divided by four days =13.333 years

    13.333 times 108 days =1439.96
    there is more but i dont want to continue if its wrong.
    1day =24 hours =1440 mins[r]????

  531. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="317508"]
    Speaking of Jacob, I think it’s highly interesting that Ben was willing to have Locke learn of Jacob and even go to his cabin, but the mere mention of Hawking’s name visibly upsets Ben. The clear implication is that Locke knew too much, that he wasn’t supposed to have knowledge of Hawking. Maybe if Locke got to Hawking, Ben was fearful that Locke could gain the knowledge as to how to release Jacob, or something even more profound. Ben has been using Locke, but when he found out Locke knew of Hawking’s existence, Ben had to eliminate him because that represented a serious threat to everything Ben is trying to do. It’s going to be a great moment when Ben sees that Locke is now undead!

    Miles has definitely been on the Island before, as evidenced by his nosebleed occurring sooner than Sawyer and Juliet’s. Who is he connected to? Is he related to the DHARMA bigwig scientist we see in the Orientation tapes? Or, could he actually be that guy?

    Charlotte had of course been on the Island before, and my theory on how she knows Korean is that Jin taught it to her in the 70’s when he became a DHARMA worker and Charlotte was little.

    In terms of Kate likely being pregnant, I have an interesting theory. I wonder if she will have the baby on the Island like Claire did, but during the 1970’s, and I wonder if this child is somebody we know from the present-day time (2004-2008) on the Island or maybe off of it.
    [/quote]
    I wonder if Ben didn’t know about Mrs. Hawking being involved until John mentioned her. If he did trick her off the island they may not have been in touch. When he heard (from John) that she was alive and knew how to get back to the island he contacted her. He may have told her that Jacob sent him in order to get her to work with him.

    We’ve discussed, and many of us beleive, that Miles is the baby that Marvin Candle/Dr. Chang was taking care of in the opening of SE5. Miles is his son.

    I love the suggestion that Jin taught Charlotte Korean in the 70’s. It makes so much sense. Also intrigues by the idaa of Kate being the mother of someone we already know.

    Good question as to how did Penny know Desmond was on the island. Will think on that one.

  532. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="317666"]
    And yet, “a “dead” horse lifts its head up and looks around”…[/quote]
    Are you referring to the horse Kate saw because that was “undead” at least that is what was said in a podcast.:)

    If you are referring to “beating a dead horse”, you continued the convo and added your 2 cents, I figured I would do the same. And also straighten up some facts. Time losties spent on island was 108 days.
    . That was incorrect.:)

  533. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="317508"]Speaking of Jacob, I think it’s highly interesting that Ben was willing to have Locke learn of Jacob and even go to his cabin, but the mere mention of Hawking’s name visibly upsets Ben. The clear implication is that Locke knew too much, that he wasn’t supposed to have knowledge of Hawking. Maybe if Locke got to Hawking, Ben was fearful that Locke could gain the knowledge as to how to release Jacob, or something even more profound. Ben has been using Locke, but when he found out Locke knew of Hawking’s existence, Ben had to eliminate him because that represented a serious threat to everything Ben is trying to do. It’s going to be a great moment when Ben sees that Locke is now undead!
    [/quote]

    I don’t think Ben was upset that Locke knew about Hawkin in that sense. It seemed to me that Ben got upset because HE had NOT known about Hawkin being in LA. Maybe SHE was the key to getting back and Ben had thought he needed Locke in order to find her. He did and thus no longer needed Locke ALIVE- still needed him though.

  534. Circus Mom says:

    The dead horse lifting his head comes from a comment I made about a bad movie called Copperhead where the safe combo is 15-16-23-42 and a production error results in a dead horse lifting his head up.

  535. Miraks says:

    Going back to the scene last week when Ben explains to Jack the story of the doubting Thomas. Just a reminder- Thomas did not believe that Christ had risen even when many people confirmed it, not even when he saw Jesus with his own eyes. Only after litelary sticking his fingers into Christ’s wound did he believe. It seems to me that was what we call foreshadowing in a big way. Any guesses who the island’s “Thomas” will be? Jack? How about the “risen one”? Locke? Christian?

  536. Ingo says:

    He ends up in Tusina. That is where the gate is. Withmore helps him get back to USA. Ben kills him.

  537. Circus Mom says:

    Late 1970’s”Orientation” Unknown date

    Something happens to Helen that leads to her being angry for the next 20 years, until she meets John Locke.

    The above is from Lostpedia. Since we just saw Helen’s grave, and the losties are in the 70’s I think Helen will be on the island working for Dharma. Perhaps she is Penny’s mother?

  538. jaime says:

    [quote comment="317676"][quote comment="317508"]
    Speaking of Jacob, I think it’s highly interesting

    Good question as to how did Penny know Desmond was on the island. Will think on that one.[/quote]
    **************************************************
    Soon after Desmond crashed on the island, Penny began searching for him. At some point, she managed to learn about the island, but the extent of her knowledge, and where it came from, is unknown.
    Three years after Desmond’s disappearance, after the discharge and the detection of an electromagnetic anomaly by the two Portuguese-speaking men at the listening station, Penny was notified by telephone at 3:05 a.m., her local time, that they “found it.”
    After Charlie turned off the signal jam at The Looking Glass, a button lit up telling Charlie there was an incoming transmission. He pressed the button, and Penny appeared on-screen, but her response to Charlie’s question if she was “on the boat” was “What boat?” When Charlie clarified and mentioned Naomi, Penny seemed confused and replied, “I am not on a boat; who, who’s Naomi?” As she asked how he got this frequency, she heard Charlie shout for Desmond.
    On Christmas Eve 2004, Desmond, on the freighter, phoned Penny at her London flat. She tried to tell him she knew about the island, and she vowed she would find him.
    Due to that phone call, Penny was able to trace it to an area in the South Pacific where the Island was before it was moved.
    I think it was this phone conversation she had with with Desmond, she was able to track his location to the area near the Island, aboard the Searcher.

  539. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317674"]
    ok. here s how i worked every thing out . Perhaps then every one can interpret it themselves and see where im going wrong.
    108 mins into 24 hours =13.3 times

    widmore met locke in middle of 1953=53.5
    divided by four days =13.333 years

    13.333 times 108 days =1439.96
    there is more but i dont want to continue if its wrong.
    1day =24 hours =1440 mins[r]????[/quote]

    First, it seems like you are finding patterns by making the puzzle pieces fit.

    Second, it was 195*4* not 1953.

    [quote comment="317641"]Bentham returned in dec 2007
    Why did jack tell locke/ bentham in the hospital that christian died in australia three years ago ?yet widmore told locke that the o6 had been back three years ?[/quote]

    Christian Shepherd died in presumably mid September 2004.

    Flight O815 crashed September 22, 2004.

    The survivors were on the island 100 days.

    They were rescued 108 days after the crash, in January 2005.

    In Locke’s perspective, he turned the FDW “four days” later – still early January 2005. He “landed” in late 2007.

    When Jack and Widmore are talking to Locke, they are both saying “three years” but neither means precisely 365 x 3 DAYS ago. Three years is a “round” number. If today, someone asked me when my aunt died, I would say “four years” ago. I wouldn’t say, “four years, three months and eight days” ago.

    HTH,
    : ) P

  540. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317695"]Late 1970’s”Orientation” Unknown date

    Something happens to Helen that leads to her being angry for the next 20 years, until she meets John Locke.

    The above is from Lostpedia. Since we just saw Helen’s grave, and the losties are in the 70’s I think Helen will be on the island working for Dharma. Perhaps she is Penny’s mother?[/quote]

    Or depending on the date, Charlotte’s?
    Annie’s?

    I like it!

    : ) P

  541. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="317699"][quote comment="317676"][quote comment="317508"]
    Speaking of Jacob, I think it’s highly interesting

    Good question as to how did Penny know Desmond was on the island. Will think on that one.[/quote]
    **************************************************
    Soon after Desmond crashed on the island, Penny began searching for him. At some point, she managed to learn about the island, but the extent of her knowledge, and where it came from, is unknown.
    Three years after Desmond’s disappearance, after the discharge and the detection of an electromagnetic anomaly by the two Portuguese-speaking men at the listening station, Penny was notified by telephone at 3:05 a.m., her local time, that they “found it.”
    After Charlie turned off the signal jam at The Looking Glass, a button lit up telling Charlie there was an incoming transmission. He pressed the button, and Penny appeared on-screen, but her response to Charlie’s question if she was “on the boat” was “What boat?” When Charlie clarified and mentioned Naomi, Penny seemed confused and replied, “I am not on a boat; who, who’s Naomi?” As she asked how he got this frequency, she heard Charlie shout for Desmond.
    On Christmas Eve 2004, Desmond, on the freighter, phoned Penny at her London flat. She tried to tell him she knew about the island, and she vowed she would find him.
    Due to that phone call, Penny was able to trace it to an area in the South Pacific where the Island was before it was moved.
    I think it was this phone conversation she had with with Desmond, she was able to track his location to the area near the Island, aboard the Searcher.[/quote]
    ___________
    You just told me all the things I already know. I want to know how Penny found out Desmond was on the island and what she knows about the island.

  542. jaime says:

    [quote comment="317704"][quote comment="317699"][quote comment="317676"][quote comment="317508"]
    Speaking of Jacob, I think it’s highly interesting

    Good question as to how did Penny know Desmond was on the island. Will think on that one.[/quote]
    **************************************************
    Soon after Desmond crashed on the island, Penny began searching for him. At some point, she managed to learn about the island, but the extent of her knowledge, and where it came from, is unknown.
    Three years after Desmond’s disappearance, after the discharge and the detection of an electromagnetic anomaly by the two Portuguese-speaking men at the listening station, Penny was notified by telephone at 3:05 a.m., her local time, that they “found it.”
    After Charlie turned off the signal jam at The Looking Glass, a button lit up telling Charlie there was an incoming transmission. He pressed the button, and Penny appeared on-screen, but her response to Charlie’s question if she was “on the boat” was “What boat?” When Charlie clarified and mentioned Naomi, Penny seemed confused and replied, “I am not on a boat; who, who’s Naomi?” As she asked how he got this frequency, she heard Charlie shout for Desmond.
    On Christmas Eve 2004, Desmond, on the freighter, phoned Penny at her London flat. She tried to tell him she knew about the island, and she vowed she would find him.
    Due to that phone call, Penny was able to trace it to an area in the South Pacific where the Island was before it was moved.
    I think it was this phone conversation she had with with Desmond, she was able to track his location to the area near the Island, aboard the Searcher.[/quote]
    ___________
    You just told me all the things I already know. I want to know how Penny found out Desmond was on the island and what she knows about the island.[/quote]
    ********************************************

    Well, well, well…alrighty then. Maybe Libby, Widmore put a tracking device on the Elizabeth and she found out about it.

  543. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317704"]
    You just told me all the things I already know. I want to know how Penny found out Desmond was on the island and what she knows about the island.[/quote]

    If you want THEORIES, I have one… Perhaps Penny knew that Desmond was lost while on her father’s race. She was angry with her father for not actively looking for Desmond (though he was) and went rifling through his things to find some clues as to where he was last spotted. She came across all kinds of research about the island and put 2+2 together. She used Daddy’s money and resources to mount her own search.

    I also like Jaime’s idea that there was some kind of tracking device on the Elizabeth.

    : ) P

  544. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="317674"][quote comment="317435"][quote comment="317287"]Great catch Rita @487, I was looking for that.

    Time difference on the island are NOT constant, they are random and unpredictable. That is what Faraday established early on. When he talks about something getting worse he is referencing the dramatic flashes that were occurring.

    The flight crashed in 2004 not 2001.

    To the extent that island time differs from real time, it is not something that can be extrapolated with any consistency.

    GMTA, in this past episode, Locke tells Widmore that it had been 4 days since he saw him in his camp, yet at least 50 years had passed, how do you resolve that discrepancy?[/quote]
    TIME TRAVEL explains the discrepency. The time differences are apparent but my guess is that they have gotten worse since the FDW was off its axis.[/quote]
    ////////////////////
    ok. here s how i worked every thing out . Perhaps then every one can interpret it themselves and see where im going wrong.
    108 mins into 24 hours =13.3 times

    widmore met locke in middle of 1953=53.5
    divided by four days =13.333 years

    13.333 times 108 days =1439.96
    there is more but i dont want to continue if its wrong.
    1day =24 hours =1440 mins[r]????[/quote]
    _________________________________________
    You’re not understanding what’s been shown. There’s no reason to relate 108 min. to 24 hours (the first calculation you’re making). What is your reason for doing that?

  545. duke says:

    [quote comment="317641"][quote comment="317149"][quote comment="317145"]For anyone wondering what the time difference is on/off island, 1 day on island is equal to 10.13 days off island.So 108 days equals 1095days equals 3 years.[/quote]

    Do you mind sharing your SOURCE for those numbers? Because to me, they don’t make any sense at ALL.

    O815 left Sydney 9/22/2004 and crashed. O6 were rescued 108 days later in January 2005, OFF ISLAND TIME. Ben turned the FDW and arrived in Tunisia in October 2005. EVEN IF the FDW didn’t throw him ahead ten months, there is no way to make that 108 days into three years.

    : ) P[/quote]
    /////////////////////
    Bentham returned in dec 2007
    Why did jack tell locke/ bentham in the hospital that christian died in australia three years ago ?yet widmore told locke that the o6 had been back three years ?
    christian died in 2004 and 06 were rescued in 2005? …..Maybe just maybe i may have got my calculations arse upwards …it could be the Narnia hint.
    And yes sector7 ,i do think we need to discuss time differences some more . cos some of us only watched the blogs current episode last night , so im sorry if you tire of it. but after reading 500 plus posts ,just to catch up , (and thats before we watched the show ) you could maybe humour us a while longer ,eh?[/quote]
    ___________________________________

    I took Jack’s statement of his father dying 3 years ago to be an approximate time when he died. The confusion seems to be from Locke’s timeline point of view. They crashed in September 2004 and by the date of the paper Widmore shows Locke they were rescued around January 14 2005. When we see Locke, off the island, It is three years later. Probably sometime in late 2008. It seems obvious to me that the O6 have been off island about three years but the time travelling island was only 4-7 days long. They did not spend three years time travelling. THe time travelling further complicated the natural course of time as we know it.

  546. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="317710"][quote comment="317704"]
    You just told me all the things I already know. I want to know how Penny found out Desmond was on the island and what she knows about the island.[/quote]

    If you want THEORIES, I have one… Perhaps Penny knew that Desmond was lost while on her father’s race. She was angry with her father for not actively looking for Desmond (though he was) and went rifling through his things to find some clues as to where he was last spotted. She came across all kinds of research about the island and put 2+2 together. She used Daddy’s money and resources to mount her own search.

    I also like Jaime’s idea that there was some kind of tracking device on the Elizabeth.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ______________________

    Desmond called Penny and told her he was on an island when he went back in time.

  547. gmta leah says:

    [quote comment="317700"][quote comment="317674"]
    ok. here s how i worked every thing out . Perhaps then every one can interpret it themselves and see where im going wrong.
    108 mins into 24 hours =13.3 times

    widmore met locke in middle of 1953=53.5
    divided by four days =13.333 years

    13.333 times 108 days =1439.96
    there is more but i dont want to continue if its wrong.
    1day =24 hours =1440 mins[r]????[/quote]

    First, it seems like you are finding patterns by making the puzzle pieces fit.

    Second, it was 195*4* not 1953.

    [quote comment="317641"]Bentham returned in dec 2007
    Why did jack tell locke/ bentham in the hospital that christian died in australia three years ago ?yet widmore told locke that the o6 had been back three years ?[/quote]

    Christian Shepherd died in presumably mid September 2004.

    Flight O815 crashed September 22, 2004.

    The survivors were on the island 100 days.

    They were rescued 108 days after the crash, in January 2005.

    In Locke’s perspective, he turned the FDW “four days” later – still early January 2005. He “landed” in late 2007.

    When Jack and Widmore are talking to Locke, they are both saying “three years” but neither means precisely 365 x 3 DAYS ago. Three years is a “round” number. If today, someone asked me when my aunt died, I would say “four years” ago. I wouldn’t say, “four years, three months and eight days” ago.

    HTH,
    : ) P[/quote]
    1954 to 2007 is 53 years

  548. sector7 says:

    gmta leah wrote: 1954 to 2007 is 53 years

    _____________________________________
    Still wondering why you are making a relation to 108 min. and 24 hrs.?

  549. Jay says:

    Jay wrote:

    What if Jack didn’t do well in skeletal anatomy…

    I am going suggest that he may have done alright in ’skeletal anatonmy’… seeing how he is highly regarded for ’spinal’ surgery. I could be wrong, but isn’t the spine the part of the skeleton that connects all of the parts of the skeleton together?

    ***

    I was joking.

  550. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="317714"][quote comment="317710"][quote comment="317704"]
    You just told me all the things I already know. I want to know how Penny found out Desmond was on the island and what she knows about the island.[/quote]

    If you want THEORIES, I have one… Perhaps Penny knew that Desmond was lost while on her father’s race. She was angry with her father for not actively looking for Desmond (though he was) and went rifling through his things to find some clues as to where he was last spotted. She came across all kinds of research about the island and put 2+2 together. She used Daddy’s money and resources to mount her own search.

    I also like Jaime’s idea that there was some kind of tracking device on the Elizabeth.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ______________________

    Desmond called Penny and told her he was on an island when he went back in time.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Someone will have to apply the time traveling ‘always happened’ theory to this one. She was looking for the island before Des’s time traveling episode. The guys in the listening post saw the discharge when he turned the key…which was before the helicopter flight that started his TD.

  551. gmta leah says:

    When i first saw ben after the crash [316] it seemed odd . do ya think the wounds he sustained were self inflicted ?like he had got them before the flight ? to make it look like he was a survivour? after all locke did not see ben on the plane prior ?

  552. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="317714"][quote comment="317710"][quote comment="317704"]
    You just told me all the things I already know. I want to know how Penny found out Desmond was on the island and what she knows about the island.[/quote]

    If you want THEORIES, I have one… Perhaps Penny knew that Desmond was lost while on her father’s race. She was angry with her father for not actively looking for Desmond (though he was) and went rifling through his things to find some clues as to where he was last spotted. She came across all kinds of research about the island and put 2+2 together. She used Daddy’s money and resources to mount her own search.

    I also like Jaime’s idea that there was some kind of tracking device on the Elizabeth.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ______________________

    Desmond called Penny and told her he was on an island when he went back in time.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    What if Mommy Hawking helped her?

  553. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="317720"]When i first saw ben after the crash [316] it seemed odd . do ya think the wounds he sustained were self inflicted ?like he had got them before the flight ? to make it look like he was a survivour? after all locke did not see ben on the plane prior ?[/quote]
    Locke did not see anyone- he was in a coffin and dead.

  554. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317714"]Desmond called Penny and told her he was on an island when he went back in time.[/quote]

    Not really. He was IN 2004, consciousness traveling back to 1996. In “real” time, he called Penny on Christmas Eve, 2004. She was already looking for him prior to that (when the Looking Glass hatch signal was broken a few days earlier, she was on that signal because she was already looking for him).

    : ) P

  555. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317719"]Someone will have to apply the time traveling ‘always happened’ theory to this one. She was looking for the island before Des’s time traveling episode. The guys in the listening post saw the discharge when he turned the key…which was before the helicopter flight that started his TD.[/quote]

    Well no. She was looking for Desmond before Christmas eve, 2004. There wasn’t time traveling involved here. See post 556.

    : ) P

  556. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317719"]
    Someone will have to apply the time traveling ‘always happened’ theory to this one. She was looking for the island before Des’s time traveling episode. The guys in the listening post saw the discharge when he turned the key…which was before the helicopter flight that started his TD.[/quote]

    I think I made it more confusing just then, sorry. What I mean is that I don’t think time traveling had anything to DO with Penny looking for Des. There is a reason she is looking for him, but I don’t think we have been shown it yet.

    : ) P

  557. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="317725"][quote comment="317719"]Someone will have to apply the time traveling ‘always happened’ theory to this one. She was looking for the island before Des’s time traveling episode. The guys in the listening post saw the discharge when he turned the key…which was before the helicopter flight that started his TD.[/quote]

    Well no. She was looking for Desmond before Christmas eve, 2004. There wasn’t time traveling involved here. See post 556.

    : ) P[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    I agree..that’s what I said…she was looking BEFORE the time travel thing. :)

    I was hoping that Miraks or other folks that back the theory of ‘it always happened’ could explain how this would fit in with his concious time travel.

  558. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="317727"][quote comment="317725"][quote comment="317719"]Someone will have to apply the time traveling ‘always happened’ theory to this one. She was looking for the island before Des’s time traveling episode. The guys in the listening post saw the discharge when he turned the key…which was before the helicopter flight that started his TD.[/quote]

    Well no. She was looking for Desmond before Christmas eve, 2004. There wasn’t time traveling involved here. See post 556.

    : ) P[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    I agree..that’s what I said…she was looking BEFORE the time travel thing. :)

    I was hoping that Miraks or other folks that back the theory of ‘it always happened’ could explain how this would fit in with his concious time travel.[/quote]
    +++++++
    Actually, I forgot to add the part I wanted explained by ‘it always happened’. Des’ concious went to 96 and he told her to answer the call in 8 years (2004). When the call is made and she answered, she said she knew about the island and had been looking for him for 3 years and was now knows she ‘isn’t crazy’. So 5 years after he tells her to answer the call she begins the search.

  559. LizS says:

    [quote comment="317508"]
    I agree with an earlier person that alluded to much of this being “a game” or a mind-test, and that certain people could be working in concert with one another, like Widmore, Ben, Hawking, etc. They test Locke to see if he will kill his own father; they test Kate/Sawyer when they put them in the cages, knowing romance could result. They test Kate/Jack to see what they would do when Sawyer was about to get killed (remember Kate screaming out in tears “they’re gonna kill Sawyer!”). Those are just some examples that immediately came to my mind, and even last episode, both Widmore AND Ben are playing mind-games with Locke, it could be argued…how does Locke know which man to believe? They both tell him similar things, like he’s special, they want to help him get back to the Island, etc. He could have reason to trust Widmore, who tells him he hasn’t tried to kill him. He has reason to trust Ben, because Widmore was the guy who sent the freighter to basically wipe out the Island. There is definitely an element of mind-testing on this show in my opinion. I’ve heard people say Locke is just a pawn, but I think the argument could be made that many of them have been used as pawns.[/quote]
    You make a lot of interesting points, lostJunkie, re: the TESTING aspects, and it makes me ask, To What End? Do we know what they’re testing for? Our heroes obviously had a hard time passing–or have they passed now? In the beginning, the Others rejected them big time, so what changed? Who assessed who and decided, now that they left, oh, dayam, we were wrong, we want them back!

    If we go back to Jack, willing to sacrifice his happiness with Kate, his freedom, by making Kate & Sawyer’s freedom a condition for completing the op on Ben–hey, noble behavior by most standards, wouldn’t you say? It kinda won him Juliet’s attention. Is that the test that made him valuable to the Island?

    As for the TEST of John Locke killing his dad–now, who, hmm, had a similar ‘test’ thrown at them, and did the actual deed? Or does the fact that John manipulated Sawyer into it count as squeamishly pawning the job off on someone else but still getting it done? The result being what counted?

    And, I probably said this before, but it still bothers me, what’s up with folks ‘testing’ people by seeing how willing they are to kill their pappa? Do you REALLY want to be a member of that club? Do you really want to lead those violence-prone individuals? Yeah, life can be harsh, but the goal doesn’t seem to be, let’s make a world where we can all live together in peace and harmony.

    Which, still puts me back at John walking out of the jungle, throwing a knife into Naomi, without a freaking blink.

    Yeah, that’s special all right.

    There is an old, old tradition of The King Is Dead, Long Live the King, where to ascend certain thrones, you had to kill the current owner of said…chair in the cottage in the woods???

    Poor Jacob sounds like he is ready to give up that invisible throne–aim your machete in the right direction, Johnny boy!

    Well, maybe I’m being harsh and the show is moving away from that–as it might seem given the death and revival of John Locke.

    Are we in the sacrifice for the ‘good’ of all mode? Or sacrificing to some Island God whose criteria are, and may always be, mysterious?

    Jury’s out!
    Best, Liz

  560. LostJunkie says:

    I don’t think Ben did not know about Hawking when Locke mentions it. To me, the reaction in his face was one of “he isn’t supposed to know that”, rather than “I have never heard of this person.” Also, if Ben hadn’t even known about Hawking, I don’t think he would have eliminated Locke that quickly; maybe Locke would have had further info. that Ben would’ve wanted to know. So I think it was a case where Locke demonstrated that he knew too much and had to be eliminated, in Ben’s mind.

  561. LizS says:

    [quote comment="317536"]In thinking a little more, I am starting to think that Widmore really does intend no harm to Locke. I don’t know how he feels about the other characters, but in the last episode we learned that Abaddon works for Widmore, and Abaddon is responsible for Locke going to Australia to try to go on the walkabout in the first place. Thus, Widmore WANTED Locke to make it to the island. And he must have known Locke was “special”, or would be cured of his paralysis, or both. So why would he want to harm Locke once he got off the island, or now that he’s back on it? This lends credence to the theory that Ben and Widmore are NOT on the same side, since Ben has attempted to kill Locke on more than one occasion.
    [/quote]
    Yah, I think you’re right on that–because there was almost a kind of reverence to Widmore’s conversation with Locke, because he’d met him all that time ago, and maybe even interfered to make John’s initial trip possible, because he KNEW John would get there. Like that encounter when he was a young man made some kind of life-altering impact on him.

    But, I’m still not liking him for a good guy. Exactly.

    And if Eloise Hawking is Ellie from JUGHEAD, and Ben knew Widmore from the Island, chances are he knew Ellie back then as well. So what’s the connections/emotion/baggage between all three of them? Are they the Jack/Kate/Sawyer of the past?

    Depending on the stakes involved–if it’s the end of the world everyone’s trying to avoid, even people who hate each other might work together for a time to stop that.

    Liz

  562. LizS says:

    [quote comment="317730"][quote comment="317727"][quote comment="317725"][quote comment="317719"]Someone will have to apply the time traveling ‘always happened’ theory to this one. She was looking for the island before Des’s time traveling episode. The guys in the listening post saw the discharge when he turned the key…which was before the helicopter flight that started his TD.[/quote]

    Well no. She was looking for Desmond before Christmas eve, 2004. There wasn’t time traveling involved here. See post 556.

    : ) P[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    I agree..that’s what I said…she was looking BEFORE the time travel thing. :)

    I was hoping that Miraks or other folks that back the theory of ‘it always happened’ could explain how this would fit in with his concious time travel.[/quote]
    +++++++
    Actually, I forgot to add the part I wanted explained by ‘it always happened’. Des’ concious went to 96 and he told her to answer the call in 8 years (2004). When the call is made and she answered, she said she knew about the island and had been looking for him for 3 years and was now knows she ‘isn’t crazy’. So 5 years after he tells her to answer the call she begins the search.[/quote]
    ——————————
    By that I figured that since he was lost at sea, she’s been looking for him–the 3 years he’s been on the island. Tho she doubted the fact that he would call her Cmas04, but still, loving him, had the crazy thought he might. Which had to be crazy, since he’s been lost at sea. But he does call, so what he told her 8 years ago is now fulfilled. The it always happened for that. Even though he basically just did it.
    –Liz

  563. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="317730"][quote comment="317727"][quote comment="317725"][quote comment="317719"]Someone will have to apply the time traveling ‘always happened’ theory to this one. She was looking for the island before Des’s time traveling episode. The guys in the listening post saw the discharge when he turned the key…which was before the helicopter flight that started his TD.[/quote]

    Well no. She was looking for Desmond before Christmas eve, 2004. There wasn’t time traveling involved here. See post 556.

    : ) P[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    I agree..that’s what I said…she was looking BEFORE the time travel thing. :)

    I was hoping that Miraks or other folks that back the theory of ‘it always happened’ could explain how this would fit in with his concious time travel.[/quote]
    +++++++
    Actually, I forgot to add the part I wanted explained by ‘it always happened’. Des’ concious went to 96 and he told her to answer the call in 8 years (2004). When the call is made and she answered, she said she knew about the island and had been looking for him for 3 years and was now knows she ‘isn’t crazy’. So 5 years after he tells her to answer the call she begins the search.[/quote]
    _________________
    Not sure if this will suffice, but I’ll take a crack at it.

    First, a disclaimer: The “It always happened” rule as implied by Faraday was only stated with regards to physical time travel, the likes of which we’re seeing this season. He never stated it applied to consciousness time travelling. Also, Faraday said something about the rules not applying to Desmond. So even if the “it always happened”/”can’t change the past” rule does apply to consciousness time travelling, it doesn’t apply to Desmond’s consciousness time travelling.

    Also, a correction: In the Constant, it is Desmond’s 1996 consciousness that is doing the time travelling to 2004, not the other way around. When Des visits Penny in 1996 to ask her for her phone number, it’s his 1996 consciousness doing that, and that consciousness knows nothing about the island, so he didn’t tell her about the island. So that isn’t why Penny is searching for the island. I don’t remember all of my Penny/Desmond history, but in 1996, Penny wanted nothing more to do with Desmond, and then by 2001 she was engaged to someone else. At that time Des went off on the solo boat race, thinking if he won that, Widmore would think more highly of him, and would allow him to marry Penny. Penny knew of his plan to do all that, so when he never returned from that race, she probably got worried and started the search. Yes, that was 5 years after his 1996 conscionsness time travelling experience, but prior to that he wasn’t missing, so there was no need to search for him in the south pacific. (although in “Live together Die Alone”, they indicate that Penny had to search for Desmond in 2001 to track him down in LA)

    So, I guess I’m thinking that yes, that 1996 converstation between Des and Penny may possibly have always happened. Between the date of that conversation and Dec 24, 2004, Penny and Des had little contact with each other, so there was never a time when Penny could have brought up that strange vow he made to call her on a random date 8 years into the future.

    (hopefully that answers your question, Hammer; I may have misunderstood it)

  564. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="317737"]I don’t think Ben did not know about Hawking when Locke mentions it. To me, the reaction in his face was one of “he isn’t supposed to know that”, rather than “I have never heard of this person.” Also, if Ben hadn’t even known about Hawking, I don’t think he would have eliminated Locke that quickly; maybe Locke would have had further info. that Ben would’ve wanted to know. So I think it was a case where Locke demonstrated that he knew too much and had to be eliminated, in Ben’s mind.[/quote]
    I did not mean he had never heard of Hawkin before, I just don’t think Ben knew that she was in LA. In fact, I believe that had Ben known where to find Hawkin, he would not have stopped Locke from jumping off that table in the first place.

  565. Miraks says:

    Ok, here is my take on the Desmond/ Penny thing.
    -Des and Penny dating, painting apartment 1995 or 1996
    -Des falls, wakes up with 2004 consciousness
    -spends next few days confused (predicting outcome of soccer game, etc.)
    -WE DO NOT KNOW IF HE MENTIONED HIS STRANGE “DREAM” TO PENNY IN THOSE DAYS
    -They break up
    -Des comes to see her to tell her he will call her in eight years
    -she finds him, he goes on a SAILING race that her father is sponsoring
    -Des gets lost
    -Penny knows A- Des got lost sailing on a race her father picked the course for B- Des had told her about strange experience (the future phone call and possibly about a strange island
    -Penny adds 2 and 2 together, probably confronts dad about what he knows of strange islands, starts looking for said island and Desmond

  566. Skippy says:

    Redheaded Annie.
    Redheaded Charlotte.
    Redheaded dolls leading Jack to Christian’s casket in “White Rabbit.”
    Redheaded woman boards 316’s Business Class.
    Woman who runs off with Frank after 316 crash will be …Redheaded Annie.

  567. Skippy says:

    Also, Redheaded Libby gave Des the boat.
    Redheaded Emily gave birth to John Locke.
    Redheads, often treated a ‘weird’ or ‘other.’
    Redheads are a leitmotif.

  568. Skippy says:

    Also, Redheaded Libby gave Des the boat.
    Redheaded Emily gave birth to John Locke.
    Redheads, often treated as ‘weird’ or ‘other.’
    Redheads are a leitmotif.

  569. Circus Mom says:

    Thanks all for theories on how Penny knew about island. I need to process.

  570. wallyp says:

    Finally made it to the end! Kept me occupied all week! Now I’m gonna spin…

    Widmore and Ellie are brother and sister… watch the way they interact in the Jughead episode. “Shut up Ellie.” thats not an abusive boyfriend shut up, its a bro and sis shut up… perhaps the Widmore blood was no longer wanted on the island.

    Ben is like a double agent, with a double agenda always. He works under Richard Alpert, but I’m guessing he was put in that spot by way of Witmore to begin with, who also at some point came up with his own agenda (i.e secretly ran Dharma initiative at the same time he lead the others, hence, exiled, but left his plant behind- Ben…) Ben has since sort of screwed over Whitmore, yet, cant completely screw him over, because they both need each other… even though they hate each others guts and would equally rather see each other dead. Which can’t seem to happen, because, I’ll guess, they know how and when each other really die by way of fuzzy flashbacks in their head that are actually from the future. *Could it be possible that everyone is from the future, they just have false memories of growing up in the present world?*

    Faraday was “raised by another” but it is the fuzzy memories of his mother Ellie that inspire him to time travel in the first place- picked up on right quick by old uncle Charles, who seems to be rather in the dark about how that actually works.

    Flash moments have been occuring throughout many of these peoples lives, whether it be themselves flashing in conscience, or someone else interacting with them in conscience. Something needs to spark these interactions… Time led Penny to the island by way of the hatch, but time always knew that Des would miss hitting the button on 9/22/04… some ancient race knew that before they even built the four toed statue… the same way that they could tell when it rained or that Des would reveal the right amount of info to Penny in 1996. Energy pockets don’t just connect places on the earth, they connect places in time also… and probably peoples conciousness.

    Des: Faradays mother is dead.
    Penny: You LIE! It’s Eloise Hawking… you told me that already… it just hasn’t happened yet.

    Dig? These are my theories and I’m sticking to them, until this weeks episode blows them all to bits…

    P.S. Ellie Whitmore from 1954 needs to smack me around some. It’s supposed to happen.

  571. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317887"]P.S. Ellie Whitmore from 1954 needs to smack me around some. It’s supposed to happen.[/quote]

    She was pretty cute, eh?

    I agree with most of what you’ve said wallyp. Particularly the part about Ellie and Charles being siblings. It makes much more sense to me that if Eloise Hawking IS Daniel’s mother, then Daniel is Penny’s cousin. To my knowledge, we have not seen Daniel interact with Penny. That might be significant.

    : ) P

  572. londonboy says:

    Lots of confusion for me over what Widmore says. As mentioned before, he knows Ben tried to kill Locke on the island somehow. Then he assumes that Ben also manipulated Locke into leaving the island and Locke has to correct him – but didn’t Locke arrive at the exit after Ben? Hadn’t Ben visited Widmore by this point?

    Does this mean anything?

    Another thing I can’t remember – were the CCTV cameras at the exit when Ben arrived there?

  573. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="317889"]
    Another thing I can’t remember – were the CCTV cameras at the exit when Ben arrived there?[/quote]
    I don’t think they showed us, but the fact that men came riding up and Ben had to overtake them with his baton is a ‘clue’ that they ‘may’ have been there, IMO.

  574. londonboy says:

    Hi Hammer,

    Thanks. That’s what I thought. In which case, whenever Ben visited Widmore, he should have seen him leave in 2005, a few years before Locke arrived. Why would he think Ben tricked Locke or was he just fishing?

  575. wallyp says:

    [quote comment="317889"]Lots of confusion for me over what Widmore says. As mentioned before, he knows Ben tried to kill Locke on the island somehow. Then he assumes that Ben also manipulated Locke into leaving the island and Locke has to correct him – but didn’t Locke arrive at the exit after Ben? Hadn’t Ben visited Widmore by this point?

    Does this mean anything?

    Another thing I can’t remember – were the CCTV cameras at the exit when Ben arrived there?[/quote]

    I dont remember the cameras being there at that point, but Ben WAS prepared to do some head cracking, which I think was because he knew the spot was watched by Widmore. Think maybe those two guys on horseback were coming for John Locke then,… so now cameras are there so that this type of mistake doesn’t happen twice…

    I think we are also supposed to see that Ben and Charles Widmore don’t know everything. Neither one of them seemed to be aware of the reasoning behind Locke dying…

    also I think that Ben and Witmore keep in contact frequently… they are (somewhat) enemies, but they rely on each others moves. Thats where we get this talk about you changed “the rules” and whatnot. There is an agreed conduct between the two on how they do things.

    Some things get brushed over between Ben and Widmore. Ben only went to see him personally because he had Alex killed, and now he was going to kill Penny. Widmore totally knows everything about the lampost, and probably gave Eloise the ok to let Ben in on the deal, provided he got all of his 06’rs together. Therefore, he doesn’t really care if Ben tried to kill Locke or did kill Locke or whatever. He needs his plants to get on the island.

  576. Skweez says:

    [quote comment="317157"][quote comment="317141"]Now, here’s what I find strange. Jacob/Christian tells Locke that he has to “move” the island. We know from what Hawking’s said in last week’s episode, that the island is always moving. If that is true, which I think it is, why would the island have to be “moved”? Also, why didn’t Christian/Jacob tell Locke HOW to move the island. When Locke falls down the well, Christian tells him that Ben wasn’t supposed to turn the FDW. But if he didn’t, the flashes wouldn’t have happenned and he wouldn’t have met up with Guyliner to get the instructions to bring the O6 back. And let’s say that Locke somehow figured out how to “move” the island or he did get instructions from Jacon/Christian, he would have ended up in Tunisia with no mission and no idea how to get back. Any thoughts?[/quote]
    ___________________________________
    Possibly, if you are truly the leader, you should just already know.
    Skweez, I don’t understand your reply to my comment 469 – it doesn’t seem to relate to anything that I actually asked. Am I misunderstanding you?[/quote]

    ******************

    It relates to the fact that the military had found the island on more than one occasion. I’m think the “war” will be between them and whoever is on the island at the time.

  577. duke says:

    They need to give me concrete evidence that Hawking is Daniel’s mother. I am guessing that she is not. At least not his biological mother anyway. Her reaction to Desmond did not convince me that she is, in fact, his mother.

  578. wallyp says:

    [quote comment="317897"]They need to give me concrete evidence that Hawking is Daniel’s mother. I am guessing that she is not. At least not his biological mother anyway. Her reaction to Desmond did not convince me that she is, in fact, his mother.[/quote]

    I wondered at first if the whole “go see my mother” was a ploy to get Des under Eloise’s radar again. Either Whitmore just decided that then when HE sent him there, or Faraday was supposed to lead Des to her (I dont want to believe that Faraday is a bad guy, but you never know)…

    There really isn’t any evidence that says that Eloise is who he was talking about or not, he just says mother. Widmore could have twisted it… but Faraday after all, works for Widmore…

    he named the mouse Eloise, I think because the name symbolized time travel to him. Not because it was his mothers name…

    he also represents time travel to her too, since he told her in 1954 that he’s from the future. so in that respect, I could see that being the connection…(she takes care of him when he’s little-tells him that one day he’ll travel through time…) this is explained later to him by Charles Whidmore as, “she’s your real mother”

    (its all long winded answers today for me, sorry…)

  579. Circus Mom says:

    I wike WallyP’s thought about Ben. Widmore brought Ben to the island (through Dharma?) and ben turned on him and joined the others. It makes a good parrellel between Ben and Widmoore. Widmore leaves others to start/join Dharma, Ben leaves Dharma to join others.

    This could explain why they can’t kill each other. When Juliette killed Danny and was sent to trial it was because there arn’t allowed to kill each other. Once a other, always a other?

  580. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="317899"][quote comment="317897"]They need to give me concrete evidence that Hawking is Daniel’s mother. I am guessing that she is not. At least not his biological mother anyway. Her reaction to Desmond did not convince me that she is, in fact, his mother.[/quote]

    I wondered at first if the whole “go see my mother” was a ploy to get Des under Eloise’s radar again. Either Whitmore just decided that then when HE sent him there, or Faraday was supposed to lead Des to her (I dont want to believe that Faraday is a bad guy, but you never know)…

    There really isn’t any evidence that says that Eloise is who he was talking about or not, he just says mother. Widmore could have twisted it… but Faraday after all, works for Widmore…

    he named the mouse Eloise, I think because the name symbolized time travel to him. Not because it was his mothers name…

    he also represents time travel to her too, since he told her in 1954 that he’s from the future. so in that respect, I could see that being the connection…(she takes care of him when he’s little-tells him that one day he’ll travel through time…) this is explained later to him by Charles Whidmore as, “she’s your real mother”

    (its all long winded answers today for me, sorry…)[/quote]
    I think it was rather obvious by the convo that took place.

    DESMOND: [Sighs, scoffs] I came here to deliver a message. [To Eloise] Daniel Faraday–your son–sent me here. He wanted me to tell you that he and all the people on the Island need your help. He said that only you could help them. He didn’t say Jack. He didn’t say Sun. He didn’t say Ben. He said you.

    ELOISE: But I am helping, dear.

    It’s the reply that is confirmation. But, I AM helping. Not really that hard to figure out.

  581. jaime says:

    [quote comment="317888"][quote comment="317887"][/quote]

    I agree with most of what you’ve said wallyp. Particularly the part about Ellie and Charles being siblings. It makes much more sense to me that if Eloise Hawking IS Daniel’s mother, then Daniel is Penny’s cousin. To my knowledge, we have not seen Daniel interact with Penny. That might be significant.

    : ) P[/quote]
    *****************************************

    I really like this theory.

  582. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317903"]I wike WallyP’s thought about Ben. Widmore brought Ben to the island (through Dharma?) and ben turned on him and joined the others. It makes a good parrellel between Ben and Widmoore. Widmore leaves others to start/join Dharma, Ben leaves Dharma to join others.[/quote]

    I had an a-ha moment. Did Horace arrange for Roger Linus to get the job because it would bring Ben to the island? Were Horace and Olivia driving along that road because someone KNEW that Emily Linus would give birth to that special baby in that place on that day?

    : ) P

  583. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="317903"]I wike WallyP’s thought about Ben. Widmore brought Ben to the island (through Dharma?) and ben turned on him and joined the others. It makes a good parrellel between Ben and Widmoore. Widmore leaves others to start/join Dharma, Ben leaves Dharma to join others.

    This could explain why they can’t kill each other. When Juliette killed Danny and was sent to trial it was because there arn’t allowed to kill each other. Once a other, always a other?[/quote]
    But if Widmore was part of Dharma at that time, than he had already been exiled. Dharma was fighting AGAINST the natives of which Widmore was a part. Therefore if he brought Ben over through Dharma, Ben could not have been the one to exile him.

  584. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317904"]
    I think it was rather obvious by the convo that took place.

    DESMOND: [Sighs, scoffs] I came here to deliver a message. [To Eloise] Daniel Faraday–your son–sent me here. He wanted me to tell you that he and all the people on the Island need your help. He said that only you could help them. He didn’t say Jack. He didn’t say Sun. He didn’t say Ben. He said you.

    ELOISE: But I am helping, dear.

    It’s the reply that is confirmation. But, I AM helping. Not really that hard to figure out.[/quote]

    Well, to be fair, in the world of LOST, what is unsaid is often as significant as what is said. She said, “I AM helping, dear.” To me, that was an answer to, “He said you,” not to, “Daniel Faraday, your son…”

    I am not saying that you are wrong, simply that I don’t believe her response is confirmation enough. It seems as if we are REALLY meant to believe Mrs. Hawking is Daniel’s mother, they’ve been feeding us clues since the first night.

    : ) P

  585. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="317910"]

    Well, to be fair, in the world of LOST, what is unsaid is often as significant as what is said. She said, “I AM helping, dear.” To me, that was an answer to, “He said you,” not to, “Daniel Faraday, your son…”

    : ) P[/quote]
    Exactly. He said it twice. “your son” and just to Hammer the point down, he said “you” at the end. No one can help him but Faraday’s mother, “you”.

  586. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="317914"][quote comment="317910"]

    Well, to be fair, in the world of LOST, what is unsaid is often as significant as what is said. She said, “I AM helping, dear.” To me, that was an answer to, “He said you,” not to, “Daniel Faraday, your son…”

    : ) P[/quote]
    Exactly. He said it twice. “your son” and just to Hammer the point down, he said “you” at the end. No one can help him but Faraday’s mother, “you”.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    In my best Butt-Head voice: “uuuhuh, you said Hammer, uuuhuh…”

  587. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317914"]Exactly. He said it twice. “your son” and just to Hammer the point down, he said “you” at the end. No one can help him but Faraday’s mother, “you”.[/quote]

    LOL. I guess this will be an agree to disagree point! You see her answer as a confirmation that she is Daniel’s mother. I see her answer that she is the one helping.

    Imagine a similar scenario, only instead of Mrs. Hawking, it is Ben and instead of Desmond, it is Jack. Of course, we KNOW that Daniel isn’t Ben’s son, but just pretend that Jack thinks he is, and read it through:

    JACK: [Sighs, scoffs] I came here to deliver a message. [To Ben] Daniel Faraday–your son–sent me here. He wanted me to tell you that he and all the people on the Island need your help. He said that only you could help them. He didn’t say [Desmond]. He didn’t say Sun. He didn’t say Ben. He said you.

    BEN: But I am helping, Jack.

    This is exactly the kind of thing that Ben would say, and we would ALL know that he wasn’t telling the complete truth, even if Jack thought it was.

    My point is that just because it SEEMS like Mrs. Hawking is confirming that Daniel is her son, doesn’t mean she actually is.

    No worries, L4E. Like I said, she may well BE his mother, I just don’t think we’ve seen it “proven” yet is all. I suspect we will very soon!

    : ) P

  588. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="317908"][quote comment="317903"]I wike WallyP’s thought about Ben. Widmore brought Ben to the island (through Dharma?) and ben turned on him and joined the others. It makes a good parrellel between Ben and Widmoore. Widmore leaves others to start/join Dharma, Ben leaves Dharma to join others.

    This could explain why they can’t kill each other. When Juliette killed Danny and was sent to trial it was because there arn’t allowed to kill each other. Once a other, always a other?[/quote]
    But if Widmore was part of Dharma at that time, than he had already been exiled. Dharma was fighting AGAINST the natives of which Widmore was a part. Therefore if he brought Ben over through Dharma, Ben could not have been the one to exile him.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    That is true. I never beleived Ben was the one to exhile him. Ben may have tricked him into leaving but he was exhiled by HIM. My guess is Alpert, Christian or Jacob. See posts 311 and 344.

    Widmore said to Locke, “I wondered if Ben tricked you into leaving like he did to me.” and “I was exhiled by HIM.” Not exact quotes, can’t find them while at work but Widmore never said it was Ben who exhiled him.

  589. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="317917"]

    No worries, L4E. Like I said, she may well BE his mother, I just don’t think we’ve seen it “proven” yet is all. I suspect we will very soon!

    : ) P[/quote]
    No worries here either PJ. I realize it would probably take Faraday’s actual birth to confirm it for some bloggers.:) And that might not even be enough. I can hear it already, what if she was just the surrogate…

  590. wallyp says:

    [quote comment="317919"][quote comment="317908"][quote comment="317903"]I wike WallyP’s thought about Ben. Widmore brought Ben to the island (through Dharma?) and ben turned on him and joined the others. It makes a good parrellel between Ben and Widmoore. Widmore leaves others to start/join Dharma, Ben leaves Dharma to join others.

    This could explain why they can’t kill each other. When Juliette killed Danny and was sent to trial it was because there arn’t allowed to kill each other. Once a other, always a other?[/quote]
    But if Widmore was part of Dharma at that time, than he had already been exiled. Dharma was fighting AGAINST the natives of which Widmore was a part. Therefore if he brought Ben over through Dharma, Ben could not have been the one to exile him.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    That is true. I never beleived Ben was the one to exhile him. Ben may have tricked him into leaving but he was exhiled by HIM. My guess is Alpert, Christian or Jacob. See posts 311 and 344.

    Widmore said to Locke, “I wondered if Ben tricked you into leaving like he did to me.” and “I was exhiled by HIM.” Not exact quotes, can’t find them while at work but Widmore never said it was Ben who exhiled him.[/quote]

    Widmore could have started Dharma while he was still an Other. I don’t see why he couldn’t have, if he had the same power as a leader as Ben has, to leave as he pleases. It also would make for a good reason for him to be exiled after thirty years, … bringing in outside people that could bring harm to the island…

  591. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="317917"][quote comment="317914"]Exactly. He said it twice. “your son” and just to Hammer the point down, he said “you” at the end. No one can help him but Faraday’s mother, “you”.[/quote]

    LOL. I guess this will be an agree to disagree point! You see her answer as a confirmation that she is Daniel’s mother. I see her answer that she is the one helping.

    Imagine a similar scenario, only instead of Mrs. Hawking, it is Ben and instead of Desmond, it is Jack. Of course, we KNOW that Daniel isn’t Ben’s son, but just pretend that Jack thinks he is, and read it through:

    JACK: [Sighs, scoffs] I came here to deliver a message. [To Ben] Daniel Faraday–your son–sent me here. He wanted me to tell you that he and all the people on the Island need your help. He said that only you could help them. He didn’t say [Desmond]. He didn’t say Sun. He didn’t say Ben. He said you.

    BEN: But I am helping, Jack.

    This is exactly the kind of thing that Ben would say, and we would ALL know that he wasn’t telling the complete truth, even if Jack thought it was.

    My point is that just because it SEEMS like Mrs. Hawking is confirming that Daniel is her son, doesn’t mean she actually is.

    No worries, L4E. Like I said, she may well BE his mother, I just don’t think we’ve seen it “proven” yet is all. I suspect we will very soon!

    : ) P[/quote]
    _______________________________
    Well, there’s also the preceding conversation between Desmond and Widmore. Des asked (demanded?) Widmore to tell him where he can find Daniel Faraday’s mother. Widmore gave him the address of the church where Ms. Hawking was working.

    So I think taking these two scenes together pretty much firms up the theory that Ms Hawking is Faraday’s mother. However, I too would like to see more “concrete” proof that this is the case, and I’m sure we’ll eventually get it, probably in a scene showing the two of them together, and perhaps in a flashback type of reveal.

  592. Skweez says:

    It seems that an assumption has been made that Abadon has been working for Widmore all along. Could it be possible that he’s a freelance person for hire? He made the comment, “I help people get to where they need to get to, John. That’s what I do for Mr. Widmore”. To me, that sounds like him getting people to where they need to be is his specialty, and right now he’s helping Widmore.

    If he was working for Widmore when he told Locke to go on the walkabout, then I am totally confused as to the explanation given for the plane coming down as pointed out in a previous comment.

    Also, I know that when Ben and Locke spoke, Ben said that he was an extremely dangerous man working for Widmore. But, that doesn’t mean that he’s always worked for Widmore, does it?

  593. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="317919"]
    Widmore said to Locke, “I wondered if Ben tricked you into leaving like he did to me.” and “I was exhiled by HIM.” Not exact quotes, can’t find them while at work but Widmore never said it was Ben who exhiled him.[/quote]
    Here you go CM.

    WIDMORE: Well, that’s the exit. I was afraid Benjamin might fool you into leaving the Island, as he did with me. I was their leader.

    LOCKE: The Others?

    WIDMORE: They’re not the “Others” to me. They’re my people. We protected the Island peacefully for more than three decades. But then I was exiled… by him… just as you were.

    This is what he told to Ben in S4E9, when Ben crept into his room, like a rat.:)

    WIDMORE: I know who you are, boy. What you are. I know that everything you have you took from me. So… Once again I ask you: Why are you here?

    and

    WIDMORE: That island’s mine, Benjamin. It always was. It will be again.

    He said then It ALWAYS was, I wonder what he meant by that?

  594. wallyp says:

    ….Widmore could have started Dharma while he was still an Other. I don’t see why he couldn’t have, if he had the same power as a leader as Ben has, to leave as he pleases. It also would make for a good reason for him to be exiled after thirty years, … bringing in outside people that could bring harm to the island…

  595. wallyp says:

    [quote comment="317925"]….Widmore could have started Dharma while he was still an Other. I don’t see why he couldn’t have, if he had the same power as a leader as Ben has, to leave as he pleases. It also would make for a good reason for him to be exiled after thirty years, … bringing in outside people that could bring harm to the island…[/quote]

    never mind. …595

  596. WinnipegWinnies says:

    someone up here suggested that Ethan Rom is the son of mz Hawking. when she left the island she found her way to Canada (ehhh?). not in exile, but as a conscientious objecter. explains why ETHAN ROM is MORE THAN anyone suspected.

  597. Skweez says:

    After Abaddon died in this episode, I was upset that we didn’t find out what he meant by, “…And then when you and me run into each other again… you’ll owe me one”. Now I’m starting to think he meant that he would take a bullet for him, which would allow him to “get away” and “end up” in the hospital with Jack, which ends up being the turning point for Jack.

  598. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="317928"]After Abaddon died in this episode, I was upset that we didn’t find out what he meant by, “…And then when you and me run into each other again… you’ll owe me one”. Now I’m starting to think he meant that he would take a bullet for him, which would allow him to “get away” and “end up” in the hospital with Jack, which ends up being the turning point for Jack.[/quote]
    When he said “you’ll owe me” I thought Locke owed him the favor for sending him on the walkabout, but you could be right. He could have been referring to the “next time we meet”, and saving his life, then you will owe me one.

  599. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="317927"]ETHAN ROM is MORE THAN anyone suspected.[/quote]
    ETHAN ROM = OTHER MAN

  600. Tarzan says:

    LOST for Dummies – by Tarzan

    Tarzan no find rest after swim small island.

    Large shiny metal bird make nest on Tarzan beach.

    Many people crawl belly of shiny metal bird.
    One man, shiny head, crawl from water like droppings from metal bird.

    People make fire on Tarzan beach, take mango from Tarzan tree.

    People take canoe from Tarzan used canoe lot, no ask use.

    One man hide sawed-off fire stick from others.

    There go Tarzan neighborhood.

    Tarzan think swim big island soon, leave canoe for shiny bird people.

    Tarzan take chance big island god and big island smoke monster.

    Tarzan do see old face, man with bug eye name Ben.

    Ben know small island well.

    If he here, he have good reason – big plan.

    Tarzan no make theory, Tarzan make haste, swim away.

  601. LostJunkie says:

    Hawking is clearly Faraday’s mother, let’s put that one to rest right now. Besides the already pointed-out facts, here’s another: Daniel says that she looks “familiar” when he encounters her in 1954. It’s a clear implication that it’s a younger version of his mother.

  602. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317937"]Hawking is clearly Faraday’s mother, let’s put that one to rest right now. Besides the already pointed-out facts, here’s another: Daniel says that she looks “familiar” when he encounters her in 1954. It’s a clear implication that it’s a younger version of his mother.[/quote]

    It is an implication, yes. You are right. The “already pointed-out facts” however, are NOT facts. They are supposition. Plausibly accurate supposition, but NOT fact.

    It drives me NUTS as many times as people ask the group to put X to rest! LOL. This blog is a place to discuss ideas, articulate theories, debate plot points. So while some people are tired of reading about runways, Daniel’s mother *g*, how long Locke lived after turning the FDW, and many other debatable issues, there are others of us for whom the discussion is still current. So to all those who have had enough of the debates… If you don’t LIKE reading it, please just skip it over, or come back Wednesday night at 10:02pm! No big deal, right? *G*

    : ) P

  603. Rita says:

    [quote comment="317937"]Hawking is clearly Faraday’s mother, let’s put that one to rest right now. Besides the already pointed-out facts, here’s another: Daniel says that she looks “familiar” when he encounters her in 1954. It’s a clear implication that it’s a younger version of his mother.[/quote]
    __________________________________
    We the obsessed have to remember that the casual viewer doesn’t find everything to be “too obvious” to be true. I was talking with a friend who watches LOST every week, and likes it but doesn’t obsess over it (like we all do) – she was SHOCKED to find out that Mrs. Hawking was Faraday’s mom. She asked me if I saw it coming and of course I had (as we all did). Anyway, sometimes things that are obvious are just true, and not hints at things the casual viewer would NEVER figure out.

    Doesn’t it seem sometimes like we are all watching a different show? We all get such very different things out of it, even though we all just watched the same thing. I think that when it is over, we still won’t be able to agree on what happened. :)

  604. duke says:

    [quote comment="317904"][quote comment="317899"][quote comment="317897"]They need to give me concrete evidence that Hawking is Daniel’s mother. I am guessing that she is not. At least not his biological mother anyway. Her reaction to Desmond did not convince me that she is, in fact, his mother.[/quote]

    I wondered at first if the whole “go see my mother” was a ploy to get Des under Eloise’s radar again. Either Whitmore just decided that then when HE sent him there, or Faraday was supposed to lead Des to her (I dont want to believe that Faraday is a bad guy, but you never know)…

    There really isn’t any evidence that says that Eloise is who he was talking about or not, he just says mother. Widmore could have twisted it… but Faraday after all, works for Widmore…

    he named the mouse Eloise, I think because the name symbolized time travel to him. Not because it was his mothers name…

    he also represents time travel to her too, since he told her in 1954 that he’s from the future. so in that respect, I could see that being the connection…(she takes care of him when he’s little-tells him that one day he’ll travel through time…) this is explained later to him by Charles Whidmore as, “she’s your real mother”

    (its all long winded answers today for me, sorry…)[/quote]
    I think it was rather obvious by the convo that took place.

    DESMOND: [Sighs, scoffs] I came here to deliver a message. [To Eloise] Daniel Faraday–your son–sent me here. He wanted me to tell you that he and all the people on the Island need your help. He said that only you could help them. He didn’t say Jack. He didn’t say Sun. He didn’t say Ben. He said you.

    ELOISE: But I am helping, dear.

    It’s the reply that is confirmation. But, I AM helping. Not really that hard to figure out.[/quote]
    not confirmation enough for me in this show anyways.

  605. Anko says:

    Has anyone seen the lost season 2 dvd box set extras?
    In Phase 3: Conclusion: Lost Connections there is a person connected to Jack, Claire, and Chirstian. When the figure apperes the ‘t.v.’ has static and you can not tell the age nor gender.
    Because of the connections i was thinking it might be Claire’s mum. Do you guys think this is possible, and if not who could it be?

  606. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="317945"]Has anyone seen the lost season 2 dvd box set extras?
    In Phase 3: Conclusion: Lost Connections there is a person connected to Jack, Claire, and Chirstian. When the figure apperes the ‘t.v.’ has static and you can not tell the age nor gender.
    Because of the connections i was thinking it might be Claire’s mum. Do you guys think this is possible, and if not who could it be?[/quote]
    I’d guess Aaron, since we didn’t know Christian was Claire’s father at that time.

  607. duke says:

    [quote comment="317914"][quote comment="317910"]

    Well, to be fair, in the world of LOST, what is unsaid is often as significant as what is said. She said, “I AM helping, dear.” To me, that was an answer to, “He said you,” not to, “Daniel Faraday, your son…”

    : ) P[/quote]
    Exactly. He said it twice. “your son” and just to Hammer the point down, he said “you” at the end. No one can help him but Faraday’s mother, “you”.[/quote]
    ________________________________

    He made the assumption that the first lady he saw was Daniel’s mother. Then she replied but I am helping dear which could be interpreted as no need for Daniel’s mother to help because I am Helping dear. Widmore has never wanted Desmond and Penny together. He doesn’t think that Desmond is WORTHY. Why would that opinion change all of a sudden. In his past conversations with Desmond, Widmore seemed to DESPISE him not just dislike him. Why would Widmore give out the information to Daniel’s mother so easily. Also why hasn’t Widmore been able to find the island he has been searching for for over 20 years when he has to know what Hawking is up to. IT should have been easier for him to find if he knew of her. HE maybe couldn’t use the lamppost to get back but it would give him an idea of where it was going to be thereby allowing him to find it sooner. I assume he was ble to find it because they turned the fail safe key allowing the electromagnetism to make the island visible to get it’s location. He could have easily used the pendulum to chart where the island was going to be sometime over the past 20 years. Money can get you anything and Widmore is LOADED.

    I may be wrong but they have pushed Hawking as Daniel’s mother WAY TOO EASILY for me just to believe without more evidence. All we have now is an inconclusive But I am helping dear which just isn’t enough for me given Desmond and WIdmore’s past hatred for each other.

  608. duke says:

    [quote comment="317920"][quote comment="317917"]

    No worries, L4E. Like I said, she may well BE his mother, I just don’t think we’ve seen it “proven” yet is all. I suspect we will very soon!

    : ) P[/quote]
    No worries here either PJ. I realize it would probably take Faraday’s actual birth to confirm it for some bloggers.:) And that might not even be enough. I can hear it already, what if she was just the surrogate…[/quote]
    ________________________________

    That is very SNARKY! I just said that it wasn’t enough for me to believe and I may even be wrong but there is no need for you to get smart*ss about it. It was WAY TOO OBVIOUS is my point. NOthing in this show so far has been this obvious which is one of the reasons I have doubts about it.

  609. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317950"]That is very SNARKY! I just said that it wasn’t enough for me to believe and I may even be wrong but there is no need for you to get smart*ss about it. It was WAY TOO OBVIOUS is my point. NOthing in this show so far has been this obvious which is one of the reasons I have doubts about it.[/quote]

    duke, duke… it’s OKAY. Remember last week when we discussed how sometimes things are interpreted differently than they are intended and that one way to SHOW humor as the intent is to add symbols? Like *g* (for grin) or LOL.

    If you look at lost4ever’s reply…

    [quote comment="317920"]No worries here either PJ. I realize it would probably take Faraday’s actual birth to confirm it for some bloggers.:) And that might not even be enough. I can hear it already, what if she was just the surrogate…[/quote]

    L4E SPECIFICALLY put a smiley face in to show that it was a joke.
    :)

    So I don’t think the response was intended as snarky at all!

    : ) P

  610. Rita says:

    [quote comment="317896"][quote comment="317157"][quote comment="317141"]Now, here’s what I find strange. Jacob/Christian tells Locke that he has to “move” the island. We know from what Hawking’s said in last week’s episode, that the island is always moving. If that is true, which I think it is, why would the island have to be “moved”? Also, why didn’t Christian/Jacob tell Locke HOW to move the island. When Locke falls down the well, Christian tells him that Ben wasn’t supposed to turn the FDW. But if he didn’t, the flashes wouldn’t have happenned and he wouldn’t have met up with Guyliner to get the instructions to bring the O6 back. And let’s say that Locke somehow figured out how to “move” the island or he did get instructions from Jacon/Christian, he would have ended up in Tunisia with no mission and no idea how to get back. Any thoughts?[/quote]
    ___________________________________
    Possibly, if you are truly the leader, you should just already know.
    Skweez, I don’t understand your reply to my comment 469 – it doesn’t seem to relate to anything that I actually asked. Am I misunderstanding you?[/quote]

    ******************

    It relates to the fact that the military had found the island on more than one occasion. I’m think the “war” will be between them and whoever is on the island at the time.[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    OK, but my question is that if the island is so difficult to find that even Dharma can’t find it without the Lampost, and Widmore has spent 20 years looking for it, HOW DID THE ARMY FIND IT? And not just once either.

  611. DocH says:

    [quote comment="317973] OK, but my question is that if the island is so difficult to find that even Dharma can’t find it without the Lampost, and Widmore has spent 20 years looking for it, HOW DID THE ARMY FIND IT? And not just once either.[/quote]
    – – – –
    IMO, way back when, it wasn’t that hard to find. IMO, that was back before all of the nifty stuff was built on the island – to control how and when to hide the island. IMO.

  612. duke says:

    [quote comment="317952"][quote comment="317950"]That is very SNARKY! I just said that it wasn’t enough for me to believe and I may even be wrong but there is no need for you to get smart*ss about it. It was WAY TOO OBVIOUS is my point. NOthing in this show so far has been this obvious which is one of the reasons I have doubts about it.[/quote]

    duke, duke… it’s OKAY. Remember last week when we discussed how sometimes things are interpreted differently than they are intended and that one way to SHOW humor as the intent is to add symbols? Like *g* (for grin) or LOL.

    If you look at lost4ever’s reply…

    [quote comment="317920"]No worries here either PJ. I realize it would probably take Faraday’s actual birth to confirm it for some bloggers.:) And that might not even be enough. I can hear it already, what if she was just the surrogate…[/quote]

    L4E SPECIFICALLY put a smiley face in to show that it was a joke.
    :)

    So I don’t think the response was intended as snarky at all!

    : ) P[/quote]
    __________________________________________
    You are right but I am not familiar with the little symbols and such. I did remember we had this convo. but felt REALLY upset when I read the comments. I was just pointing out a thought that will probably be wrong but I, as of right now, have doubts about Hawking being Faraday’s mother and I thought I would comment about it.

  613. Flyboy says:

    [quote comment="317621"][quote comment="317248"][quote comment="317145"]

    The time difference only comes into play when you travel within the “bubble” that surrounds the island. Evidence of the Dan rocket experiment. Evidence of the doctor floating to shore.

    That narrows it down don’t you think? I don’t think we need to discuss the difference between on-island and off-island time anymore.[/quote]

    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    This is in ref to the above… (posts 511 and 518)

    I think I am being misunderstood. Initially my theory wasn’t as well thought out and I already apologized for my statement earlier regarding the time that has passed on the island (in days) compared to the time passed off the island (in days). I stand corrected and agree that both are about 108 days. However, I believe that this does not change the fact that I am on to something here. What it is exactly is hard to say….

    Let me try to explain this in a different way.

    We can all agree that time on the island as far as the year that the people are in can and in fact is very different many times than the year that time is in off the island. Example … Jack, Kate and Hurley are somewhere in the 70’s most likely on the island, however if they were to get off the island they would be somewhere in in the 2000’s.

    We can also all agree that the time to travel on to or off the island is changing or appears different to the people that are on the island vs. those that are off the island.

    Examples…

    1. Rocket to island in Faraday’s experiment.
    (rocket time for trip length was about 36 min.s
    less than the amount of time that passed on
    Faraday’s watch on the island)

    2. The helicopter trip from island to freighter.
    (Actual journey time for Sayid, Desmond, and
    Frank was about 20 to 30 minutes yet many hours
    passed for those on island wondering if they
    made it to the freighter and why it was taking
    so long)

    3. Dead doctor from freighter washing up on island.
    (When Faraday called to see what happened to the
    Doctor the freighter folks said nothing. He was
    still alive on freighter when is dead body was
    already on the island. He wasn’t killed on the
    freighter till later and it should have taken
    even more time for his dead body to float to
    the island)

    NOW….

    Faraday says that time is relative when asked by island folks for an explanation. Relative to what?

    According to Einstein’s theory of relativity time is relative to the observer’s frame of reference. I will spare you the long version…. In other words this theory says that the faster you travel through space (distance) the slower you travel through time. Theoretically time would stand still if you were on a spaceship and achieved a speed equivalent to the speed of light (the fastest possible speed in our universe).

    Now some good questions to ponder in relation to the above discussion.

    1. Can dead people appear alive only in a past time when they were actually alive… I think not. I think they can clearly travel to the past and future pre their birth or post their death as long as they initiate there journey to that time while they are still alive….
    (in other words, christian may have died prior to the 816 crash but if he time traveled to the island before his death than he can appear alive. I also think he would appear alive to all, not just an apparition to Jack or Claire or Locke.)

    2. Now, if you agree with the above then how would we avoid a time paradox from happening when a dead person appears alive and could interact with people in a time pre their birth or post their death? (I believe that this happens through the course corrections that have been mentioned. If so, then could these course corrections be the cause of the dilation issues of traveling to and from the island and how?)

    When we find out what year or when 315 crashed on the Hydra island this might shed light on what happened with 816. Did they takeoff at a certain time than crash in the past, did they crash in the future, or did they crash in real time? I believe this will help answer many questions in my mind regarding the way Jack appeared in the forest during the 816 crash. Could it be that Jack died in the crash and simply time traveled to the island prior to his death for some sort of course correction purpose.

    Anyways, I hope I have clarified that a little. It just seems very odd to me that Jack did not end up on the beach and that he opened his eyes in a very similar way to the flash after the 315 crash. I know many will argue ‘what about the bruises or cuts’ but I think that could be easily explained when they shed some light on where and what was going on with Jack prior to the flash. I believe that we have not yet seen that portion of the story.

    Thanks to everyone on here for the amazing insights.

  614. Skweez says:

    [quote comment="317973"][quote comment="317896"][quote comment="317157"][quote comment="317141"]Now, here’s what I find strange. Jacob/Christian tells Locke that he has to “move” the island. We know from what Hawking’s said in last week’s episode, that the island is always moving. If that is true, which I think it is, why would the island have to be “moved”? Also, why didn’t Christian/Jacob tell Locke HOW to move the island. When Locke falls down the well, Christian tells him that Ben wasn’t supposed to turn the FDW. But if he didn’t, the flashes wouldn’t have happenned and he wouldn’t have met up with Guyliner to get the instructions to bring the O6 back. And let’s say that Locke somehow figured out how to “move” the island or he did get instructions from Jacon/Christian, he would have ended up in Tunisia with no mission and no idea how to get back. Any thoughts?[/quote]
    ___________________________________
    Possibly, if you are truly the leader, you should just already know.
    Skweez, I don’t understand your reply to my comment 469 – it doesn’t seem to relate to anything that I actually asked. Am I misunderstanding you?[/quote]

    ******************

    It relates to the fact that the military had found the island on more than one occasion. I’m think the “war” will be between them and whoever is on the island at the time.[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    OK, but my question is that if the island is so difficult to find that even Dharma can’t find it without the Lampost, and Widmore has spent 20 years looking for it, HOW DID THE ARMY FIND IT? And not just once either.[/quote]

    *************************

    That is THE question at hand. How did they find it? The pic in the Lamp Post had the following printed on it: 9/23/54 – US Army – OP 264 – Top Secret – Eyes Only. It seems to me that the military found the island and may have been looking for it ever since.

  615. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="317985"]You are right but I am not familiar with the little symbols and such. I did remember we had this convo. but felt REALLY upset when I read the comments. I was just pointing out a thought that will probably be wrong but I, as of right now, have doubts about Hawking being Faraday’s mother and I thought I would comment about it.[/quote]

    That’s fair, duke. FWIW, lost4ever was quoting MY reply when answering. L4E didn’t quote or mention your posts or any other. It’s all good. *g*

    FFR (for future reference):
    :) or : ) denotes a smiling face (put your left ear to your left shoulder and you will see it). There are many others like it.

    LOL – denotes Laugh Out Loud

    *g* – denotes a grin as does a g inside the triangle brackets (above the comma and the period on the keyboard), but those symbols don’t work on this blog.

    HTH,
    : ) P

  616. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="318016"]That is THE question at hand. How did they find it? The pic in the Lamp Post had the following printed on it: 9/23/54 – US Army – OP 264 – Top Secret – Eyes Only. It seems to me that the military found the island and may have been looking for it ever since.[/quote]

    I agree with DocH. I think that UNTIL the army found the island, it was just one of millions of uncharted islands. I suspect that until then, whoever (Others, hostiles, DHARMA) was there remained peacefully unbothered by the outside world. IMO, once the Army found it and they charted it, the island had to be “hidden” by whatever means necessary.

    : ) P

  617. neofunk says:

    Does Jack know that Christian was Claire’s father or does any of the other characters know?

  618. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="318033"]Does Jack know that Christian was Claire’s father or does any of the other characters know?[/quote]

    Yes, Claire’s mother told him at Christian’s memorial service. Kate appeared to have overheard the conversation.

    : ) P

  619. DocH says:

    burppp. Nyet. Kate and Aaron were WELL clear of Jack’s conversation with Claire’s mom when he got the news. Kate gave NO indication (at the memorial) that she had overheard the conversation. If she knows, she learned it later, probably from Jack.

  620. neofunk says:

    Thanks for that Pjsander must have missed that episode must get the boxsets this week an go tru anything i missed.But shouldn’t Jack really have been thinking that so many of his realitives have been drawn to the island father, brother, nephew was more than mere coincidence and all on the same plane that happened to crash and happened to survive to a rational intelligent mind was a mathematical improbability.But then again for a doctor he does semm a bit dim lol

  621. neofunk says:

    Meant half sister there brain is a bit fried after reading all these posts but then again since the time travelling has brought a whole new level of complexity to the and I defo think it has always happened theory to be correct wel except for Desmond.Especially with Abaddon bringing Locke “To where he needed to be” cause Whitmore knew that was they way it always happened and probably manipulated the rest of the losties to be on that plane cause he also knew them from 70’s period of the islands history and from Faraday bringing him back information maybe we will see abaddon pulling strings to get others to the island.

  622. gmta leah says:

    [quote comment="317722"][quote comment="317720"]When i first saw ben after the crash [316] it seemed odd . do ya think the wounds he sustained were self inflicted ?like he had got them before the flight ? to make it look like he was a survivour? after all locke did not see ben on the plane prior ?[/quote]
    Locke did not see anyone- he was in a coffin and dead.[/quote]
    /////////////////////
    smart arse

  623. Rita says:

    [quote comment="318027"][quote comment="318016"]That is THE question at hand. How did they find it? The pic in the Lamp Post had the following printed on it: 9/23/54 – US Army – OP 264 – Top Secret – Eyes Only. It seems to me that the military found the island and may have been looking for it ever since.[/quote]

    I agree with DocH. I think that UNTIL the army found the island, it was just one of millions of uncharted islands. I suspect that until then, whoever (Others, hostiles, DHARMA) was there remained peacefully unbothered by the outside world. IMO, once the Army found it and they charted it, the island had to be “hidden” by whatever means necessary.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ______________________________________
    Thanks but I’m not sure I can buy that yet. What about the Black Rock? The island must have been moving all along – or the ship couldn’t have ended up on the middle of the island. I think its properties have ALWAYS been evident – or why WOULD the army bother to keep looking for it (if they are)?

  624. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="318035"]burppp. Nyet. Kate and Aaron were WELL clear of Jack’s conversation with Claire’s mom when he got the news. Kate gave NO indication (at the memorial) that she had overheard the conversation. If she knows, she learned it later, probably from Jack.[/quote]

    LOL. Well, see, DocH, that’s why I used the word “APPEARED” in my response:

    [quote comment="318034"]Yes, Claire’s mother told him at Christian’s memorial service. Kate appeared to have overheard the conversation.[/quote]

    Because I remember this being a really big point of contention on the blog when the episode aired and I didn’t think we needed to rehash it. Some people felt she HAD overheard the conversation, others felt she had no clue! *bg*

    LOL.

    : ) P

  625. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="318056"]
    Thanks but I’m not sure I can buy that yet. What about the Black Rock? The island must have been moving all along – or the ship couldn’t have ended up on the middle of the island. I think its properties have ALWAYS been evident – or why WOULD the army bother to keep looking for it (if they are)?[/quote]

    Well in fairness, I never said it wasn’t moving, I said it wasn’t hidden. As far as the Black Rock, I revert to the idea I had (as others did) from before we knew the island moved… tidal wave?

    : ) P

  626. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="318056"]I think its properties have ALWAYS been evident – or why WOULD the army bother to keep looking for it (if they are)?[/quote]

    *IF* the Army is still looking for it, perhaps it is because when they arrived in the 1950’s they DISCOVERED the island’s unusual properties. I think maybe our definitions of “always” are different.

    [quote comment="318027"]I think that UNTIL the army found the island, it was just one of millions of uncharted islands.[/quote]

    The properties have ALWAYS been evident to those who were on the island, but when the Army found it, was when the properties became evident to outsiders.

    I think I am suffering from the DTs because I still have 11.5 hours to wait until LOST! *g*

    : ) P

  627. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="318005"][quote comment="317621"][quote comment="317248"][quote comment="317145"]

    The time difference only comes into play when you travel within the “bubble” that surrounds the island. Evidence of the Dan rocket experiment. Evidence of the doctor floating to shore.

    That narrows it down don’t you think? I don’t think we need to discuss the difference between on-island and off-island time anymore.[/quote]

    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    This is in ref to the above… (posts 511 and 518)

    Jack, Kate and Hurley are somewhere in the 70’s most likely on the island, however if they were to get off the island they would be somewhere in in the 2000’s.

    I will spare you the long version….

    Could it be that Jack died in the crash and simply time traveled to the island prior to his death for some sort of course correction purpose.

    Anyways, I hope I have clarified that a little.[/quote]
    _______________________________
    “if they were to get off the island they would be somewhere in in the 2000’s” — Sorry, but you are totally guessing here. There is no evidence to support this claim.

    “I will spare you the long version….” — Nope, wrong again.

    I now believe that ANYTHING we see as a time-travel paradox, is explained away by the writers simply claiming “course correction”.

    As far as the connection regarding Jack appearing in the same fashion after both plane crashes: I think this was a writing strategy for entertainment purposes, and coincidence within the story.

  628. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="318064"][quote comment="318035"]burppp. Nyet. Kate and Aaron were WELL clear of Jack’s conversation with Claire’s mom when he got the news. Kate gave NO indication (at the memorial) that she had overheard the conversation. If she knows, she learned it later, probably from Jack.[/quote]

    LOL. Well, see, DocH, that’s why I used the word “APPEARED” in my response:

    [quote comment="318034"]Yes, Claire’s mother told him at Christian’s memorial service. Kate appeared to have overheard the conversation.[/quote]

    Because I remember this being a really big point of contention on the blog when the episode aired and I didn’t think we needed to rehash it. Some people felt she HAD overheard the conversation, others felt she had no clue! *bg*

    LOL.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++

    I side with PJ on this one. Kate was only about 15 feet away and I think she heard everything.