Spiral Time theory

A reader sent in this interesting theory that Will and I thought warranted a post. I have posted the full text of the email below.

Namaste!

I have been following the Lost Blog for a couple of years now and I truly enjoy reading everyone’s comments and theories. Since it’s a popular site with hundreds of posts per episode, I mostly keep my thoughts to myself to save others the trouble of reading one more opinion that’s probably already expressed. Having said that, I would like to share how my boyfriend and I were able to patch things up in the increasingly intricate plot that Lost has been throwing at us. The theory below may have many holes, which is precisely the reason why I’d like to share – so that others can pick it apart and help us in our quest to understand what exactly is going on in the world of Lost…

Over dinner tonight, we got into a heated debate over the meaning of something Faraday revealed when we first confronted time travel: “it doesn’t matter what you do..” We tried to make sense out of how doing something differently in the past could not possibly change the course of events in the future. We think that it may be because instead of being just ‘parallel’, time also progresses in a ‘spiral’ – sort of like the double-helix! To put this in a tangible context, we took Eko’s brother’s small plane that ended up killing Boone as our event of reference…

As we know from the current season, John Locke lands at the bottom of the cliff that holds the drug-laden plane. We don’t know this for sure, but when Locke sees the plane in the past, it is likely that the thought of bringing the plane down crosses his mind in order to save Boone’s life in the future. That thought gets quickly wiped off by Richard’s bullet that leaves John Locke temporarily paralyzed in the leg. So, Locke never gets to bring the plane down himself – and Boone ends up dead as we know it in 2004.

Now, suppose John Locke succeeds in bringing the plane down and Boone never dies in 2004. That would mean that John’s actions do indeed determine what happens in the future. If so, then should John Locke ever travel back to a time where the plane is still hanging atop that cliff, he will likely leave it untouched, having no recollection of that plane ever harming anyone. Then, come 2004, the plane remains at the cliff and ends up killing Boone. Hence, time progresses in a parallel fashion that spirals towards one ‘vortex.’ In other words, “it really doesn’t matter what you do”…

Cycle back to a time when the plane is at the top of the cliff and you’ll have John Locke bring it down again to save Boone’s life in the future…

Boone will die in one time spiral and survive in the next.

The same theory can likewise be applied to Ethan’s birth that Sawyer and Juliet unknowingly facilitate in the current season (in 1974). At the time they save Ethan’s would-be-mom, they have no idea who she is pregnant with… Then the baby turns out to be Ethan, who penetrates into the group of our survivors in 2004 before getting killed. If Juliet and Sawyer get a chance to go back to 1974, knowing that Ethan is the baby in his mother’s womb, they may not choose to help her out when she is harassed by ‘the others’ – meaning, Ethan is never born and our survivors never meet him in 2004. If they ever go back to 1974, however, having never come across with Ethan, they will once again rescue his mom and facilitate his birth. And so on and so forth.

That’s our theory in a nutshell. I apologize in advance if this has already been brought up, or it makes no sense, or it’s incoherent…

We look forward to having fellow Losties pick it apart.

Best,
Zeynep & Mert.

Thoughts?

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63 Responses to Spiral Time theory

  1. Clint Tseng says:

    My approach to LOST’s view of time is that time isn’t a “real” concept. Time as we perceive it is merely a collection of instances.

    The reason Faraday says that you can’t “change” the past is because whatever you *think* the past is is the only past – there aren’t multiple versions of time. In the only version of the past, Locke climbed up the cliff and was shot. Simply because you’re aware of what the future holds doesn’t mean that you’re free from the basic rules of causality.

    I think his best summary was when he said “whatever happened, happened.” There is only one version of each instance of our universe, there is no “changing” going on because by the time the plane crashes in 2004 Locke has already climbed up the cliff in the past and was shot by Ethan. In other words, the atomic reason he wasn’t able to save Boone’s life wasn’t because the future couldn’t change – he couldn’t save Boone’s life because he was shot by Ethan.

    This is generally my view on time travel in general, and given what Damon/Carlton have said in the podcast, I think they feel the same. The only evidence to the contrary was Ms Hawking’s musings about saving peoples’ lives while talking to Desmond.

  2. Tony says:

    Interesting theory and not out of realm of possibility with this show.

    My only complaint is a technical one. Ethan was born in 1977. True, his mother was saved from the Hostiles in 1974, but he wasn’t born until 1977, once Sawyer and Juliet are fully immersed in the Dharma Initiative.

  3. sector7 says:

    If what happens cannot be changed, why go to the past in the first place? There would be no point. I think there has to be more to the story than that. So far, the story proves that some things can be changed. Charlie was not killed by lightning because Des prevented it. Ethan was born in Dharmatown because Sawyer intervened. Sawyer said “Faraday has some interesting theories about what we can and can’t change”. Keyword: “can”. The key to changing something is to try and account for the universe’s course correction. A course correction can be Charlie drowning, Ethan born in Dharmatown, or someone instantly remembering a past event due to time traveler action.

  4. Hammer says:

    I think course correction explains a lot on this show. When Dan said it doesn’t matter, it’s because it won’t matter…if Sawyer got Des to answer the door, it wouldn’t have helped.

    When Dan says what happened, happened is because the end result is gonna happen either way (course correction). This time he doesn’t stop Sawyer when Sawyer confronts the Hostiles which lead to Ethan eventually being born, it was just another way for it to happen.

    The Boone example is another. IF John was trying to change things so that Boone would survive, here comes the gunshot to stop it. Course correction. The very fact that John is unable to change things to save Boone seems to prove that you can’t do your own course correcting.

    Michael tried to kill himself…nice try…you haven’t delayed a bomb yet which saves a bunch of your friends. Course correction.

    So I guess agree with Clint Tseng in that there is no real change to destiny.

    Just my opinion.

  5. sector7 says:

    The show gives plenty of reasons for us to conclude that you can’t change what is meant to happen. And yet, there are contradictions. For example, why would Eloise need to go back and make sure Desmond doesn’t give Penny the ring? If it doesn’t matter, then why the need to go back and talk to Desmond at all? Why try to arrange for ANY event to play out a certain way if the universe will course correct it anyway? It would be pointless. An effort in futility. Lame, IMO. I mean, which path makes for a better tale, one where there’s no point to try and change anything because it will all happen a certain way regardless, or one where the characters’ efforts have meaning and they can shape their own destiny?

  6. Toeknee says:

    I think the theory presented by Zeynep & Mert is interesting, but on this show I don’t think it works that way. When they say, “suppose John Locke succeeds in bringing the plane down and Boone never dies in 2004”, that indeed is an interesting supposition, and it’s interesting to follow the ensuing chain (or spiral) of events. But the point of “whatever happened, happened” is that John Locke doesn’t succeed in bringing the plane down.

    And I don’t fully agree with Hammer and sector7 when they say that Ethan shooting at Locke is an example of “course correction”, to ensure the plane doesn’t get brought down. There’s no course to correct. It always happened that way. Locke time travelling to the day Yemi’s plane crashed doesn’t change anything. It always happened that way – Locke was always there, Ethan always shot him. Only one version of events took place. (and I believe that this is what Clint Tseng is saying in his post). Similarly, sector7’s and Hammer’s comments about Ethan being born because Sawyer intervened is correct, but that isn’t changing anything. Sawyer always intervened. There was never a version of that day where Sawyer did not intervene.

    To answer sector7’s question “why go back in the first place?”. … First of all, in many of the cases, it hasn’t been a conscious decision by the Losties to time travel. For example, when Locke, Sawyer, Juliet et al went back to 1954, they didn’t plan that, it just happened. And their visit to 1954 was essential to the story line in that Locke’s visit with Alpert put the seed in Alpert’s mind that Locke is destined to be their leader. Secondly, other than Faraday, the characters in the story didn’t understand the rules of TT, so even if they could make the decision to time travel to a certain time, they don’t realize that they can’t “change” anything – by time travelling, they’d be fulfilling their destiny, if you will.

    Also, I think it’s been clearly stated on the show that the rules of TT on this show don’t apply to Desmond. So to use Desmond’s experiences as evidence of the rules of TT is a mistake. (for example, saving Charlie from dying, suddenly remembering a past event).

    sector7 – when you say ‘Sawyer said “Faraday has some interesting theories about what we can and can’t change”. Keyword: “can”’, I believe you’re misunderstanding the statement. Faraday’s theory is that you can’t change anything, or, to use your Keyword, what you “can” change, is nothing.

    Hammer – Michael trying to kill himself. I don’t consider this course correction – it always happened this way. It is the island intervening because it wasn’t done with Michael, but it is not course correction because nothing changed. The only examples of course correction we’ve actually seen on this show were Desmond saving Charlie – Desmond had visions of Charlie dying, and if Desmond didn’t intervene, Charlie would have died. But because he didn’t die due to the lightning strike, the course was corrected so he’d die another way. There’s no evidence that anything else clearly was a course correction, although I suppose you could say that every single event in every character’s life is a course correction. For example, and a hypothetical, on October 3 2004, Boone woke up and decided to eat a mango right away, but he got distracted by Vincent running by, so instead of eating the mango right away, he ate it 5 minutes later. Is this course correction?

    Oh, and yes, this is all just my opinion. Even though it may seem like I’m shooting down people’s theories, really I’m not.

  7. mcotter says:

    i don’t know why everyone is so quick to assume that Ethan wasn’t meant to be born in Dharma town, i agree with Clint Tseng in assuming that Ethan always was born in Dharma ville and Sawyer infact did always help Annie.

    I get the whole course correction thing but I think that will be for small things, you won’t be able to change anything because a day later it will happen anyway, time is a powerful force that can’t be changed by anyone except desmond who we know is special.

    I believe that is the whole season 3 connection to the big picture, course correction, desmond and fate, the only (rather large) plot whole i can think of is Desmond saying he sees Claire on a helicopter with Aaron to get Charlie to except his fate, Charlie does but Claire doesn’t get on the helicopter Aaron does. Does Desmond really always see the correct future? Does time always work as it is supposed to?

    I think somehow the Losties will either escape the 70s and flash before the purge or die in it, but I don’t think that will occur into season 6, i think this is where the show will be now, escaping the Dharma before dying will be the climax (Hurley brought it up for the first time this week). If they escape I believe it may have something to do with Desmond and Widmore, if they die, it will all be full circle, their lives end when they are children in the real world and its very possible that a few of our Losties are Adam and Eve a theory that has been around for years.

    Desmond returning to change things though will be hugely important. I think the thing that needs changing will be to stop Ben who I believe will turn out to be the chief antagonist all along and perhaps help young Widmore, who we know he knows in the future.

    We also have to take into account the Comic-Con video which will have some relevence, the orchid one did, which speaks of saving the Dharma, only Desmond though I believe will be capable of doing this, see the drama that could unfold saving the Dharma and Widmore from Ben or all the Losties dying in the Purge.

    As earlier said though I think Ethan is where he always was and will grow up to befriend Ben and together with the help of Richard and Charles Widmore (who at that point will be the one getting instructions from Jacob and also not know that the Purge isn’t a good idea for him as Ben will then take charge and have him banished) will commit the purge and then life will go on as it always did, unless Desmond can return to the island and save everyone.

  8. Manny says:

    Since the beginning of this season, I have felt that I have a firm grasp of how the time travel is happening in the show. Let me attempt to put this into words (very hard to do) and see what you think.

    There are many time travel theories out there. LOST has decided to use the theory commonly known as “Pretzel Theory”. The way it works is this:

    Time is a string running in a linear fashion. However, imagine many circles intersecting the string of time. Events of time can be viewed as linear along the string, but the “traveling” can be viewed as circles cutting through the string, having no beginning and no end.

    A good LOST example to use is the existence of John and Richard’s compass. Looking at this object carefully, you realize the compass has no inception, nor destruction. Richard is given the compass by Locke in 1954, Locke is given the compass by Richard some time in the future. The compass exists in this circle that Locke travels on intersecting the linear string of time.

    Another good example is the rope stuck in the ground that Sawyer was holding on to. Sawyer discovers the well and is holding the rope. When the “flash” occurs, the rope gets stuck in the ground. But, Sawyer’s holding of the rope and leading to it being stuck in the ground is what will eventually lead to people building that well in the first place. therefore, the well was built because of Saywer holding the rope, an event which hadn’t occured yet in the linear string of time.

    The bottom line is the circles created by “time traveling” cause future events to effect the past, and past events to effect the future simultaneously. Richard wouldn’t know John in the future, if John didn’t introduce himself in the past, but he wouldn’t have done that if he didn’t know Richard from the future (never-ending pretzel).

    Therefore, there is only one version of time, nothing can be changed. Whatever has happened, happened. This is what Faraday meant: it doesn’t matter what you do because the linear string of time has already determined what you have done. What the oceanic 6 and the people left-behind do in the Dharma time now had already taken place when they orginally crashed on the Island.

    What will be interesting to see is the unique properties Desmond holds. What I stated above are the “rules” that Faraday was talking about, but for some reason these rules do not apply to Desmond. Potentially he can alter the timeline, which is where “Course-correction” comes into play. Charlie was supposed to die from the lightening bolt, that’s how time was supposed to go, but he changed that somehow. The “rules” don’t apply to him.

    I know it’s confusing as hell, but let me know what you think.

  9. Toeknee says:

    mccotter – good post. I like the idea of Desmond going back in time to save the younger Widmore, perhaps knowing that if he doesn’t save Widmore, Penny will never be born.

    Manny – I like your post too – that’s pretty much how I understand things. And yes, I don’t know how to make sense of the compass not having an inception or destruction, but I just accept that that is the way things work on Lost.

  10. Hammer says:

    Toeknee, once again you make great points…based on your theory that everything that happens has always happened. I don’t agree with that theory, but once I am proven wrong….your points will all be correct. :0)

  11. sector7 says:

    Toeknee, just to clarify… When I say “why go back in the first place?” I’m referrring to the story. In other words, why would anyone tell a story that involves time travel if the characters can’t change the future? IMO, to do so would make no sense. Second, Sawyer did refer to Dan’s theories, plural. I took that to imply that Dan has new, possibly different ideas now.
    Respectfully — sector7

  12. wallyp says:

    Ethan was obviously meant to be born.. the question is, would the events that led to him being born have been able to happen without Sawyer? Suppose that in a different life, the two hostiles both died in that spot a different way. Maybe one accidentally shot the other after hearing a noise in the bushes (a whisper?! maybe) and reacted, then Amy took off running back to Dharma camp alone.
    Maybe neither of them got shot and she was actually captured and then made it back to Dharma camp three months later somehow…in the long run it wouldn’t matter. Everything else would remain the same, except the fact that the losties are there.

    I think the same goes for Desmond back in Seaon 3. He is not an original player in this setting, but he is there due to whatever circumstances. He is still living his life, but ultimately his actions cannot have any lasting effect to the final outcome of their lives. maybe that means that if Charlie hadn’t signaled from the looking glass someone else would have? OR…
    A.Penny would have eventually found Desmond because…
    B. The freighter would have found the island anyway (didn’t they lock signals when the hatch exploded.)

    -Here only one thing would be different, Charlies legacy in the eyes of his peers. Which seems like the one thing that is variable in this situation.

    This brings to my mind the piece in season 2 when Desmond talks to Jack in his flashback sequence about the patient, and the next day she has a miraculous recovery. It would have happened one way or the other, because Jack had nothing to do with it… what changed (supposing it was a change) was the impact that it had on Jack. A combination of the girls recovery and his happenstance meeting with Desmond on the bleachers.

  13. Hammer says:

    [quote comment=”323980″]
    This brings to my mind the piece in season 2 when Desmond talks to Jack in his flashback sequence about the patient, and the next day she has a miraculous recovery. It would have happened one way or the other, because Jack had nothing to do with it… what changed (supposing it was a change) was the impact that it had on Jack. A combination of the girls recovery and his happenstance meeting with Desmond on the bleachers.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Made me think of when Des ran off from the broken computer. Jack stops him in the jungle and the convo ends with Des asking Jack about ‘the girl’, Jack crying says, “I married her.”

  14. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment=”323979″]Toeknee, just to clarify… When I say “why go back in the first place?” I’m referrring to the story. In other words, why would anyone tell a story that involves time travel if the characters can’t change the future? IMO, to do so would make no sense. Second, Sawyer did refer to Dan’s theories, plural. I took that to imply that Dan has new, possibly different ideas now.
    Respectfully — sector7[/quote]

    I wonder if the point will be that the rules don’t apply to Desmond, and Dharma is trying to find a way around the rules.

    Let’s say Daniel is correct and you can’t change things but Dharma is working on being able to change things. Dr. Chang commented that he hoped those watching the video about the upcoming purge that they couldn’t prevent it but he hoped that those in the future could. Widmore is working to be able to change the past, and using Desmond, because he thinks the island is his. Hawkings is working to make sure what happened, happened because she knows that once you can change the future all hell will break loose.

    Somehow Ellie gets Desmond to hide out in a monastary. Widmore sends in Penny to gain control. Ellie gets him not to propose. Widmore sends him out on a boat that ends up on the island. They both know that Desmond is key in changing things.

  15. Hammer says:

    [quote comment=”323991″]
    Let’s say Daniel is correct and you can’t change things but Dharma is working on being able to change things. Dr. Chang commented that he hoped those watching the video about the upcoming purge that they couldn’t prevent it but he hoped that those in the future could. Widmore is working to be able to change the past, and using Desmond, because he thinks the island is his. Hawkings is working to make sure what happened, happened because she knows that once you can change the future all hell will break loose.
    [/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    Isn’t that the kind of the whole point of the Valenzetti equation and the numbers? To try to change something to stop the end of the world? One of the ‘factors’ needs to change in order to stop ‘whatever happened, happened’?

  16. m@ says:

    Let me first say that I definitely agree with everyone saying that in some way, you must be able to change events in time, or else our story seems somewhat pointless.

    However….I am not sure what the implications of this thought may be. It is basically just a random ‘observation’ that I thought I would express and see if anyone can run with it in any way. It may have no relevance but I think it’s still interesting.

    I don’t know the best way to express this, but is it safe to say that basically all events in time are constantly occurring, or are infinitely happening ‘now’? Here’s how I think of it….Sawyer and his crew are living in the seventies while Jack and Katie and the rest of the six are simultaneously living in what we as a third party viewer consider ‘present time’ (obviously before they end up in the 70s also). Therefore, events from two separate time periods are happening at the same time (again, as viewed from a third party onlooker like us). Therefore, if events can be happening in ‘two separate instances of time’ (again, what we view as past, present, and future), then really anyone can be at any point in time living any certain event in time. Therefore, if anyone can be at any certain point in time while someone else (or even yourself) is in another point in time simultaneously, then all events in time are essentially happening at the same time, thus time is just one instant. (Theoretically, I could go back 1 billionth of a millisecond and my present self wouldn’t know, because I am in a different ‘time’ no matter how long or short that time span is. You can only be in the present, no matter when that present happens to be.) We can’t just assume that time starts and stops depending on where or should I say ‘when’ we choose to ‘be’, we have to assume that time is constantly occurring, and we may or may not jump in at certain points. (Another therefore) Therefore, ‘whatever happened, happened’ because all events happen (present) in one instant, throwing out all concepts of past, present, and future, because theoretically, all time is one present instant. Whew! I am not saying I ‘believe’ in this or anything, or even if I think it is important to our story, but I do find it quite interesting to consider, and perhaps some smarter minds than mine can play with this notion of time as one instant.

    One major loophole though is that the losties in 2004 have no memories of their time in the dharma initiative, clearly suggesting (almost demanding) a linearization in time.
    I tried writing a lot more about this…the loopholes I see and everything, but it started to make my head hurt, so i stopped… :)

  17. Circus Mom says:

    Hammer,
    Perhaps what happened is Desmond did change things causing the end of the world and changing the number would mean that Desmond could not change things.

    That is a bit poetic since Desmond inputed the numbers for 3 years.

  18. wallyp says:

    [quote comment=”324005″]Let me first say that I definitely agree with everyone saying that in some way, you must be able to change events in time, or else our story seems somewhat pointless.

    …events from two separate time periods are happening at the same time…

    One major loophole though is that the losties in 2004 have no memories of their time in the dharma initiative, clearly suggesting (almost demanding) a linearization in time.
    [/quote]

    Right? I looked at it at first as being like Ebineezer Scrooge. He is in the past but he cannot interact, and really he is in his bed.

    Here you can interact, but you are still in your bed. Only the bed is the island, and, well, WHH. I think you can get older while you are in the past. Time exists for every person individually.
    -The way that time travel would effect the outside world (if it could) would have to have a direct result on something happening within the island. Because you don’t physically go back in time, ever, outside the island.

    Say you go back in time on the island, the world around you is NOT the same outside of the island. You couldn’t get in the sub and leave the island in 1974 because outside the island you would not exist. (maybe a younger version exists somewhere, but that has nothing to do with the TT version thats on the island)

    What could possibly happen though (wild guess here,), is that you could tell someone what will happen- or see for yourself what will happen- leave in your own time (which in itself seems pretty difficult to do)- and use that knowledge somehow.

    -Also, dont forget that once you are off the island, you then have lingering effects…like switching brains with yourself in the past. Which for most is just something that happens before you die, but. not. everyone. (I think Locke must have done this at least once, because the five year old locke drew a picture of the smoke monster)

  19. Omar Kamel says:

    All this discussion of whether or not the past can be changed has left a line bouncing around in my head :)

    I can now imagine an end scene…

    Char a)
    “I know that’s how it happens, but I’m going to change it.”
    Char b)
    “But you can’t beat time.”
    Char a)
    “Don’t tell me what I can or can’t do!”

    See ;) ?

    It almost begs it.

  20. Omar Kamel says:

    As for the spiral theory, it’s actually quite cool, and gave my brain a nice tickle. However, I don’t like, on dramatic and aesthetic grounds – the implication that essentially the spiral means that time keeps flip-flopping between two states.

    The problem with the flip-flop caused by the spiral explanation is that yes, it can be seen to mean that Ethan (for example) was never born, but one spiral arm away, it can also be argued that Ethan had always been born. It doesn’t collapse at all, just keeps hovering between the two possibilities, making both just as ‘real’ or ‘likely’ as an end result. Oddly enough, this is how I think real life operates, to a great extent, but for stories, I find it’s not very satisfactory.

  21. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment=”323966″]

    Similarly, sector7’s and Hammer’s comments about Ethan being born because Sawyer intervened is correct, but that isn’t changing anything. Sawyer always intervened. There was never a version of that day where Sawyer did not intervene.
    [/quote]
    I am not sure I buy into that theory. I have a hard time understanding how Sawyer could be on the island the first time around or he always intervened. Just me though. Back to the question what came first the chicken or the egg?

    I think it’s a shame that such a fine show is wasting half of the season on time-travel. Not to say I don’t enjoy it but they need to clear up the confusion. I can understand why ratings are way down. Again JMO.

  22. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment=”323977″]Toeknee…I don’t agree with that theory[/quote]

    Hmph! There you go again, Hammer. Always shooting other people’s theories down! :)

  23. wingman says:

    As much as I love that theory(from a constitutional sense),I still keep drifting toward one reality…Once you time travel you are apart of the time continuum in whatever time you travel to, so how can anyone argue that you weren’t there before? If there is only one string of time in LOST’s reality, then how can it be argued that there was a time inwhich time travellers didn’t time travel?

  24. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment=”323979″]Toeknee, just to clarify… When I say “why go back in the first place?” I’m referrring to the story. In other words, why would anyone tell a story that involves time travel if the characters can’t change the future? IMO, to do so would make no sense. Second, Sawyer did refer to Dan’s theories, plural. I took that to imply that Dan has new, possibly different ideas now.
    Respectfully — sector7[/quote]
    Why go back? I don’t know – this is the story they’ve chosen to tell, and this is the way they’ve chosen to tell it. Ever since the first episode, this show hasn’t been about linear story-telling. Flashbacks were an essential part of the first 2 seasons or so. Then D&C chose to introduce flashforwards to fill in parts of the story, now they’re using time travel. Part of the intrigue of the show is fitting all the pieces together, trying to figure out the history of the island, the history of the Dharma Initiative, who is Jacob, etc etc. My guess is if they told the story chronologically, without flashbacks and time travel, the story would be much less interesting.

    Also, I don’t think the idea that the time travellers can’t change anything doesn’t make a difference. The time travelling Losties can still affect things – they are playing a crucial role in the Dharma Initiative, and Sawyer’s presence apparently did save Amy’s life, which in turn led to Ethan being born. But they aren’t changing any events that already happened, IMHO. There was no version of 1974 where Sawyer did not show up and rescue Amy from the Others. Sawyer, Juliet, Jin, and Miles were always part of the Dharma Initiative from 1974 to at least 1977.

  25. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment=”324037″][quote comment=”323966″]

    Similarly, sector7’s and Hammer’s comments about Ethan being born because Sawyer intervened is correct, but that isn’t changing anything. Sawyer always intervened. There was never a version of that day where Sawyer did not intervene.
    [/quote]
    I am not sure I buy into that theory. I have a hard time understanding how Sawyer could be on the island the first time around or he always intervened. Just me though. Back to the question what came first the chicken or the egg?

    I think it’s a shame that such a fine show is wasting half of the season on time-travel. Not to say I don’t enjoy it but they need to clear up the confusion. I can understand why ratings are way down. Again JMO.[/quote]
    _____________________________
    I don’t understand how it could be physically possible for Sawyer to be there either – I don’t understand how time travel could be possible. But I accept it as part of the fictional story that is Lost. And my interpretation of the rules is based on what Daniel has said, that they can’t change the past, whatever happened happened, etc. Amy never experienced that day without Sawyer saving her. If there was a version where Sawyer didn’t save her, then what happned? Was she killed, or kidnapped? Then there would be no Ethan, right? Then the situation changes into a spiral like is presented in the main message on this thread.

  26. wingman says:

    You know what I really think:

    ——————–{TIMELOOP}———————-
    (Normal time) Ben Linus (Normal Time)
    Tries To
    Cheat Time
    Find ways for mamas
    to have babies in
    a stalled time

    The loop exists from the first time someone presses that button until Desmond and Locke blow-up The Swan…The artificial timeloop isn’t it’s own reality, but rather a “pause” or “reboot” button…The course-correction is trying to stop this loop from occurring, but Ben via Richard knows that the future of the world//the island will end if time runs it’s course (because whatever happens happens)… Now I don’t know if it’s timeloop itself or Desmond or something else that’s the reason for the eventual endgame, but I do believe the timeloop is the only caveat to the structure of LOST’s time rules…Now since the timeloop exits I speculate that you can time-travel before it happens, after it happens and WITHIN THE CONFINES OF IT BEING PRESENT…I believe when Locke travels to the time where he sees the beechcraft crash, and Ethan later shoots him in the leg, BECAUSE HE IS IN A TIMELOOP, the Locke from the time where Boone is about to die feels pain in his leg because he’s near that TIMESPACE…If the consciousness can move through time (via Faraday’s theory) than perhaps the subconscious can aswell and give certain characters insights on events that have occurred within the loop…Maybe the only thing that can truly be changed within the string of time is the hiccup that stalls time from moving (The LOOP)…

  27. wingman says:

    Ben Linus Tries To Cheat Time-Find ways for mamas to have babies in a stalled time(is what I tried to convey), but somehow the text moved over…

  28. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment=”324046″] Flashbacks were an essential part of the first 2 seasons or so. Then D&C chose to introduce flashforwards to fill in parts of the story, now they’re using time travel. [/quote]

    FB was most of Season 3. The finale, we all remember Hoffs-Drawlers , was a FF. The other episode I am unsure of is 8, Flashes Before Your Eyes, with Desmond and Ms. Hawking. Was that conscious travel or physical travel?

    I guess my question is did that “happen, happen”, IYO? Not looking for an argument, just trying to understand.:)

  29. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment=”324050″] And my interpretation of the rules is based on what Daniel has said, that they can’t change the past, whatever happened happened, etc. Amy never experienced that day without Sawyer saving her.[/quote]
    What if Daniel is just not good at TT, at least not the end-all. Who REALLY built the Lamp Post? IF he does, than I might be convinced.:)

    I need a little more info to figure out the TT and understand it better, that’s all. What are Faraday’s credentials anyways and what did he do to poor Theresa?

  30. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment=”324053″]You know what I really think:

    ——————–{TIMELOOP}———————-
    (Normal time)

    Ben Linus

    (Normal Time)
    Tries To
    Cheat Time
    Find ways for mamas
    to have babies in
    a stalled time

    The loop exists from the first time someone presses that button until Desmond and Locke blow-up The Swan…The artificial timeloop isn’t it’s own reality, but rather a “pause” or “reboot” button…The course-correction is trying to stop this loop from occurring, but Ben via Richard knows that the future of the world//the island will end if time runs it’s course (because whatever happens happens)… Now I don’t know if it’s timeloop itself or Desmond or something else that’s the reason for the eventual endgame, but I do believe the timeloop is the only caveat to the structure of LOST’s time rules…Now since the timeloop exits I speculate that you can time-travel before it happens, after it happens and WITHIN THE CONFINES OF IT BEING PRESENT…I believe when Locke travels to the time where he sees the beechcraft crash, and Ethan later shoots him in the leg, BECAUSE HE IS IN A TIMELOOP, the Locke from the time where Boone is about to die feels pain in his leg because he’s near that TIMESPACE…If the consciousness can move through time (via Faraday’s theory) than perhaps the subconscious can aswell and give certain characters insights on events that have occurred within the loop…Maybe the only thing that can truly be changed within the string of time is the hiccup that stalls time from moving (The LOOP)…[/quote]
    I like it, I just hope it doesn’t consume Season 6.

    I am not that smart, obviously. I do not want to watch a show that might rattle my head for another season over TT and the understanding of their ( D&C ) interpretation of it. JMO.

    Get back to the good story-telling. If not, I might wish it was only 5 seasons, or more of the First 3. They are really rushing it.

  31. wingman says:

    [quote comment=”324099″][quote comment=”324053″]You know what I really think:

    ——————–{TIMELOOP}———————-
    (Normal time)

    Ben Linus

    (Normal Time)
    Tries To
    Cheat Time
    Find ways for mamas
    to have babies in
    a stalled time

    The loop exists from the first time someone presses that button until Desmond and Locke blow-up The Swan…The artificial timeloop isn’t it’s own reality, but rather a “pause” or “reboot” button…The course-correction is trying to stop this loop from occurring, but Ben via Richard knows that the future of the world//the island will end if time runs it’s course (because whatever happens happens)… Now I don’t know if it’s timeloop itself or Desmond or something else that’s the reason for the eventual endgame, but I do believe the timeloop is the only caveat to the structure of LOST’s time rules…Now since the timeloop exits I speculate that you can time-travel before it happens, after it happens and WITHIN THE CONFINES OF IT BEING PRESENT…I believe when Locke travels to the time where he sees the beechcraft crash, and Ethan later shoots him in the leg, BECAUSE HE IS IN A TIMELOOP, the Locke from the time where Boone is about to die feels pain in his leg because he’s near that TIMESPACE…If the consciousness can move through time (via Faraday’s theory) than perhaps the subconscious can aswell and give certain characters insights on events that have occurred within the loop…Maybe the only thing that can truly be changed within the string of time is the hiccup that stalls time from moving (The LOOP)…[/quote]
    I like it, I just hope it doesn’t consume Season 6.

    I am not that smart, obviously.

    I do not want to watch a show that might rattle my head for another season over TT and the understanding of their ( D&C ) interpretation of it. JMO.

    Get back to the good story-telling. If not, I might wish it was only 5 seasons, or more of the First 3. They are really rushing it.[/quote]
    —————

    Well if you’ve read some of my episode posts, I think I’ve said it loud and clear, that the end-date has ultimately killed the natural pace this show once had…You could have this whole season just on TT if it was a normal sized season (Unlike you I’d love that)…Just 23 eps left though..That’s somewhat maddening when you think about it…

    Use the timeloop to RENEGOTIATE with ABC! Atleast give us a 24 episode final season…

  32. hank vega says:

    Good post everyone. I was having a conversation the other day with some friends about the past. Many have stated here that the past cannot be changed. I disagree with that, mainly because when I looked at my past I feel is changing all the time. Well, not really. What is changing is the way I see it, the way I remember it, and the way I understand it. And that constant mutation of the past is what shape the present.

    That may have nothing to do with Lost, but the past is changing all the time in our lives.

    After all that, I just want to ask, does anybody has any theories about why the rules do not apply to Desmond? There must be a really good explanation to this, and it could be the biggest revelation of this season. Maybe Aaron is Desmond.

  33. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment=”324128″][q

    Well if you’ve read some of my episode posts, I think I’ve said it loud and clear, that the end-date has ultimately killed the natural pace this show once had[/quote]
    I did, I read everything you write. There is no need to repeat it. Just agreeing with you. You are not the first.

  34. hank vega says:

    [quote comment=”324149″][quote comment=”324128″][q

    Well if you’ve read some of my episode posts, I think I’ve said it loud and clear, that the end-date has ultimately killed the natural pace this show once had[/quote]
    I did, I read everything you write. There is no need to repeat it. Just agreeing with you. You are not the first.[/quote]
    ………………………………………………..

    Interesting. I didn’t like the pace it had before, with the filling episodes and all. This is my favorite season so far. So challenging, so uncomprehensible, and so f@#*n good.

  35. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment=”324083″][quote comment=”324046″] Flashbacks were an essential part of the first 2 seasons or so. Then D&C chose to introduce flashforwards to fill in parts of the story, now they’re using time travel. [/quote]

    FB was most of Season 3. The finale, we all remember Hoffs-Drawlers , was a FF. The other episode I am unsure of is 8, Flashes Before Your Eyes, with Desmond and Ms. Hawking. Was that conscious travel or physical travel?

    I guess my question is did that “happen, happen”, IYO? Not looking for an argument, just trying to understand.:)[/quote]
    ________________________________________
    In FBYE, that was consciousness time travel, not physical, and I think it did NOT happen that way the “first” time around, so Desmond did change the past. I think that because of what Ms. Hawking told Desmond, that he’s not supposed to buy the ring. I may be wrong, and it is certainly possible that the events in FBYE did actually happen the way we saw them happen the “first” time around (in other words, whatever happened, happened). But I tend to think that Desmond did change some minor details of the past. Regardless, Desmond changing the past does not contradict what Faraday has said, because Faraday has said that the rules don’t apply to Desmond.

    ======================================
    [quote comment=”324088″][quote comment=”324050″] And my interpretation of the rules is based on what Daniel has said, that they can’t change the past, whatever happened happened, etc. Amy never experienced that day without Sawyer saving her.[/quote]
    What if Daniel is just not good at TT, at least not the end-all. Who REALLY built the Lamp Post? IF he does, than I might be convinced.:)

    I need a little more info to figure out the TT and understand it better, that’s all. What are Faraday’s credentials anyways and what did he do to poor Theresa?[/quote]
    ______________________________________
    Well it’s certainly possible that Faraday has been wrong about all this, but I think that would be a big let down, if it turns out the main purpose of bringing that character into the story was to mislead the audience about the rules of TT. I think it makes perfect sense that D&C wanted to bring in some character who was supposedly an expert in TT, so they could use him to help the audience understand what’s going on, and to help the other characters quickly realize what is going on.. Imagine if all of the characters were clueless about the time travelling that has happened. First off, it might take them many many flashes worth of TT before they could figure out that they were actually time travelling. Secondly, they wouldn’t know that one of the rules is that you can’t change things, so it would take many instances of trying to change things and failing before they, and we, could figure out that is one of the rules. So instead of wasting several episodes showing us the characters trying to understand what is happening, they brought in an expert who could explain it to them (and us).

    Theresa – my guess is that as Faraday was learning about TT, he did experiments on her, and these experiments left her in a state similar to Minkowski’s state in “The Constant”, only for some reason Theresa hasn’t died yet.

  36. Hammer says:

    [quote comment=”324201″]
    Theresa – my guess is that as Faraday was learning about TT, he did experiments on her, and these experiments left her in a state similar to Minkowski’s state in “The Constant”, only for some reason Theresa hasn’t died yet.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Since Widmore is funding her care, maybe she is getting injections of a drug that is keeping her alive until Danny boy can come up with a way to help her.

  37. wallyp says:

    [quote comment=”324083″][quote comment=”324046″] Flashbacks were an essential part of the first 2 seasons or so. Then D&C chose to introduce flashforwards to fill in parts of the story, now they’re using time travel. [/quote]

    FB was most of Season 3. The finale, we all remember Hoffs-Drawlers , was a FF. The other episode I am unsure of is 8, Flashes Before Your Eyes, with Desmond and Ms. Hawking. Was that conscious travel or physical travel?

    I guess my question is did that “happen, happen”, IYO? Not looking for an argument, just trying to understand.:)[/quote]
    **************************
    Yeah, never been sure, but I feel like it is an important piece of the pie here. Up until this point a flashback was just a flashback…

    I have thought ever since this episode that the flashbacks are supposed to be exactly what the person is thinking/remembering at that moment. I’d say that Desmond is having vivid memories in this episode of the future. Like the hatch explosion changed his perception. Changed his place in time, or something… I have had this question ever since, are flashbacks part of the plot, not just as a story telling mechanism. In season four I tossed the idea around that flashfowards were other people gaining the ability to “remeber” the future also, and then they had the constant episode, which totally F’d me up.

    I don’t think we have seen Desmond physically time travel though. The closest he came was in the constant… -I would definately say that he made some changes in that episode. Even though there was nothing different about 1996 him passing out, because that always happened. I think I look at that now as being his own personal “open windows”

  38. RGS says:

    Toe and Manny I couldn’t agree more with your reasoning/explanations. My question is do we know for sure Desmond has affected events?

    I guess taking the show for its face would lead us to believe that he has the ability.

    Perhaps him attempting to save Charlie in the various ways that he attempted ALWAYS happened. He ALWAYS got his little visions and he always tried to save Charlie. That would be an interpretation that is consistent with what is happening.

  39. PJSander says:

    [quote comment=”324225″]Perhaps him attempting to save Charlie in the various ways that he attempted ALWAYS happened. He ALWAYS got his little visions and he always tried to save Charlie. That would be an interpretation that is consistent with what is happening.[/quote]

    Remember that Desmond had a vision of Claire and “the baby” getting into a helicopter. I still feel like we ARE going to see that. Maybe before there is another rescue, she (or someone else) has a(nother) baby. I just feel like that is going to play into this somehow. Or maybe in a spiral timeline?

    : ) P

  40. LostGrrl says:

    Damn! Where is today’s episode entry???

  41. wingman says:

    [quote comment=”324153″][quote comment=”324149″][quote comment=”324128″][q

    Well if you’ve read some of my episode posts, I think I’ve said it loud and clear, that the end-date has ultimately killed the natural pace this show once had[/quote]
    I did, I read everything you write. There is no need to repeat it. Just agreeing with you. You are not the first.[/quote]
    ………………………………………………..

    Interesting. I didn’t like the pace it had before, with the filling episodes and all. This is my favorite season so far. So challenging, so uncomprehensible, and so f@#*n good.[/quote]

    ———————————-

    That’s not what I mean at all Hank (or should I say Henry Vega? Yeah Hank’s my name too^^)…I’m not saying that I was happy about all the stalling and the filler episodes…I’m saying imagine having the S1-S3 pace, but instead of fillers and stalling, it would all be about the time travel, and Dharmaville, and the smoke monster, and Richard, etc., so on and so forth…I’m saying that the end-date killed any chance of being able to deeply explore the GOOD STUFF…When it was fillers and such it frustrated us, but now it would be great to have the old pace back where we have 3-5 episodes Dharmaville-centric, instead of maybe just 2…No time to savor with just 23 eps left…

  42. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment=”324153″][quote comment=”324149″][quote comment=”324128″][q

    Well if you’ve read some of my episode posts, I think I’ve said it loud and clear, that the end-date hasultimately killed the natural pace this show once had[/quote]
    I did, I read everything you write. There is no need to repeat it. Just agreeing with you. You are not the first.[/quote]
    ………………………………………………..

    Interesting. I didn’t like the pace it had before, with the filling episodes and all. This is my favorite season so far. So challenging, so uncomprehensible, and so f@#*n good.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    For me, the first Season was by far the best, and judging by the decline in viewer ship, alot of people feel the same. I am not sure which episodes I would consider “filler”, or even know what that term means. Which ones were filler for you?

    [quote comment=”324240″] with just 23 eps left…[/quote]

    7 episodes left this year but 8 hours, minus commercials, of programming. 16 episodes next year, and I presume S6E16 the series finale, will be 2 hours also. So I agree with you on the episode count with 2 two- hour finales.

  43. Twistedsisters says:

    [quote comment=”323947″]Interesting theory and not out of realm of possibility with this show.

    My only complaint is a technical one. Ethan was born in 1977. True, his mother was saved from the Hostiles in 1974, but he wasn’t born until 1977, once Sawyer and Juliet are fully immersed in the Dharma Initiative.[/quote]

    Your right Ethan is Anne’s second child. The child Sawyer saved would be 3 years old. I will have to go back and view this again but as I recall Juliet got the sub roster from Anne with her baby three years latter when Jack, Kate and Hurley arrived. That baby was younger then three year old.

  44. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment=”324269″][quote comment=”323947″]Interesting theory and not out of realm of possibility with this show.

    My only complaint is a technical one. Ethan was born in 1977. True, his mother was saved from the Hostiles in 1974, but he wasn’t born until 1977, once Sawyer and Juliet are fully immersed in the Dharma Initiative.[/quote]

    Your right Ethan is Anne’s second child. The child Sawyer saved would be 3 years old. I will have to go back and view this again but as I recall Juliet got the sub roster from Anne with her baby three years latter when Jack, Kate and Hurley arrived. That baby was younger then three year old.[/quote]
    ++++++++
    AMY wasn’t pregnant when Sawyer saved her. She had one baby, Ethan, in 1977. The theory being discussed is that AMY never would have been around to get pregnant in 1977 if Sawyer didn’t save her in 1974.

  45. Mateo says:

    Heres a thought,.. Adam & Eve end up being Sawyer & Julliet… I think Sawyer is over Kate

  46. PJSander says:

    [quote comment=”324269″][Your right Ethan is Anne’s second child. The child Sawyer saved would be 3 years old. I will have to go back and view this again but as I recall Juliet got the sub roster from Anne with her baby three years latter when Jack, Kate and Hurley arrived. That baby was younger then three year old.[/quote]

    A) the woman who was “saved” from the “hostiles” was Amy not Anne or Annie.

    B) Amy was NOT pregnant when Sawyer “saved” her – she did NOT have a baby in 1974 (or if she did, we certainly did not see it)

    C) Juliet got the submarine roster from Amy (and the *newborn* Ethan) in 1977

    HTH,
    : ) P

  47. Rita says:

    [quote comment=”324053″]You know what I really think:

    ——————–{TIMELOOP}———————-
    (Normal time)

    Ben Linus

    (Normal Time)
    Tries To
    Cheat Time
    Find ways for mamas
    to have babies in
    a stalled time

    The loop exists from the first time someone presses that button until Desmond and Locke blow-up The Swan…The artificial timeloop isn’t it’s own reality, but rather a “pause” or “reboot” button…The course-correction is trying to stop this loop from occurring, but Ben via Richard knows that the future of the world//the island will end if time runs it’s course (because whatever happens happens)… Now I don’t know if it’s timeloop itself or Desmond or something else that’s the reason for the eventual endgame, but I do believe the timeloop is the only caveat to the structure of LOST’s time rules…Now since the timeloop exits I speculate that you can time-travel before it happens, after it happens and WITHIN THE CONFINES OF IT BEING PRESENT…I believe when Locke travels to the time where he sees the beechcraft crash, and Ethan later shoots him in the leg, BECAUSE HE IS IN A TIMELOOP, the Locke from the time where Boone is about to die feels pain in his leg because he’s near that TIMESPACE…If the consciousness can move through time (via Faraday’s theory) than perhaps the subconscious can aswell and give certain characters insights on events that have occurred within the loop…Maybe the only thing that can truly be changed within the string of time is the hiccup that stalls time from moving (The LOOP)…[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    I really hope our characters are NOT trapped in an endless fatalistic time loop that they are doomed to repeat ad nauseum. No hope! We all need hope. That must be why the rules don’t apply to Desmond – he’s the one bringing hope that they can escape the loop.

  48. hank vega says:

    [quote comment=”324240″][quote comment=”324153″][quote comment=”324149″][quote comment=”324128″][q

    Well if you’ve read some of my episode posts, I think I’ve said it loud and clear, that the end-date has ultimately killed the natural pace this show once had[/quote]
    I did, I read everything you write. There is no need to repeat it. Just agreeing with you. You are not the first.[/quote]
    ………………………………………………..

    Interesting. I didn’t like the pace it had before, with the filling episodes and all. This is my favorite season so far. So challenging, so uncomprehensible, and so f@#*n good.[/quote]

    ———————————-

    That’s not what I mean at all Hank (or should I say Henry Vega? Yeah Hank’s my name too^^)…I’m not saying that I was happy about all the stalling and the filler episodes…I’m saying imagine having the S1-S3 pace, but instead of fillers and stalling, it would all be about the time travel, and Dharmaville, and the smoke monster, and Richard, etc., so on and so forth…I’m saying that the end-date killed any chance of being able to deeply explore the GOOD STUFF…When it was fillers and such it frustrated us, but now it would be great to have the old pace back where we have 3-5 episodes Dharmaville-centric, instead of maybe just 2…No time to savor with just 23 eps left…[/quote]

    ———————————————–
    Well, if think of the show as a whole, we are definitely reaching the climax, which is were things get crazy and let you reflect on them when the movie is over. You cannot have a mellow climax Wingman.

  49. wingman says:

    [quote comment=”324293″][quote comment=”324240″][quote comment=”324153″][quote comment=”324149″][quote comment=”324128″][q

    Well if you’ve read some of my episode posts, I think I’ve said it loud and clear, that the end-date has ultimately killed the natural pace this show once had[/quote]
    I did, I read everything you write. There is no need to repeat it. Just agreeing with you. You are not the first.[/quote]
    ………………………………………………..

    Interesting. I didn’t like the pace it had before, with the filling episodes and all. This is my favorite season so far. So challenging, so uncomprehensible, and so f@#*n good.[/quote]

    ———————————-

    That’s not what I mean at all Hank (or should I say Henry Vega? Yeah Hank’s my name too^^)…I’m not saying that I was happy about all the stalling and the filler episodes…I’m saying imagine having the S1-S3 pace, but instead of fillers and stalling, it would all be about the time travel, and Dharmaville, and the smoke monster, and Richard, etc., so on and so forth…I’m saying that the end-date killed any chance of being able to deeply explore the GOOD STUFF…When it was fillers and such it frustrated us, but now it would be great to have the old pace back where we have 3-5 episodes Dharmaville-centric, instead of maybe just 2…No time to savor with just 23 eps left…[/quote]

    ———————————————–
    Well, if think of the show as a whole, we are definitely reaching the climax, which is were things get crazy and let you reflect on them when the movie is over. You cannot have a mellow climax Wingman.[/quote]
    —————–

    I get what you’re saying, but it’s more or less a feeling of completeness, over a feeling of rushness…I feel like the story works better when it’s covered in depth, unconstrained by a final date…If you honestly believe 23 episodes is enuff to satisfy the the cast of characters and all the pertinent revelations, then that is what it is…No doubt it will (since it has too), but the extra 16 eps that we don’t have can easily be used now…

    @ Rita I don’t think things in the loop endlessly repeat, I just think the loop itself repeats keeping the island from progressing in time…

  50. Rita says:

    [quote comment=”324298″][quote comment=”324293″][quote comment=”324240″][quote comment=”324153″][quote comment=”324149″][quote comment=”324128″][q
    [/quote]
    [/quote]
    [/quote]
    [/quote]
    [/quote]
    @ Rita I don’t think things in the loop endlessly repeat, I just think the loop itself repeats keeping the island from progressing in time…[/quote]
    ___________________________________
    Explain please. I’m not sure there is a difference, if “what happened, happened” and “you can’t change anything” is true. In that case, everything in the loop would remain the same each time around? Or at least within the bounds of “course correction” – if I understand the proposed theories correctly?

  51. LizS says:

    re: The Loop–
    I like Wingman’s time-loop, but I don’t know that I understand it exactly. What I THINK he means is that the 108 minutes acted as a kind of stop-gap to hold off the ‘end of the world’ or some cataclysm–maybe giving Hawking or whoever time to figure out a permanent solution to our continued existence? Maybe? If that’s what’s the Big Picture arc of the show is?

    And maybe that’s why the infertility–because the Island was stuck in this 108 minute loop, no new humans could be conceived & born on the Island.

    And the reason our people are back in 77 is to create the ‘Incident’ which begins the 108 minute cycle? Or maybe the ‘Incident’ happens right before the Purge? Or the ‘Coming War’ has something to do with preventing/causing the Incident? Or preventing/causing the end of everything?

    A lotta questions!

    But as far as Time goes–I think it depends on what the Island actually is–it’s hinted that it has temporal importance, maybe as a stabilizing element–it goes here and there and does this and that and the world turns smoothly on its axis and things go along as they should.

    But if the Equation (and was that ever in the aired show?) does predict some final cataclysm, is it Fated that the world ends? Or is that what the whole Dharma is about? Preventing that? It hasn’t been stated on the show yet.

    Then there’s ‘whatever happened, happened’ which implies that Fated events cannot be changed, so if the numbers predict the end of things, how can anyone change that? Also, not stated on the show yet.

    Enter Desmond?

    And how do the other characters fit in with that? Do they come to see any of this, and take sides, and do great things? Is LOST about personal redemption, or about crazy other time-stuff? Or both?

    It’s a lot of ground to cover, and I hope that since so many intriguing ideas were raised, we get a chance to get some answers/resolutions.

    Best, Liz

  52. The Wrz says:

    If the time loop exists, Desmond is the only one who can change anything. Which is why Faraday chose to tell him to find his mother, because “the rules don’t apply” to Des.

  53. tsunami says:

    i feel ya. i makes sense

  54. wingman says:

    LizS I think your on it for the most part as I reformulate this thoery almost every episode^^…

    @Rita

    Think about it like this, when they push that button, which suppresses the electromagnetic energy, they are rebooting 1996 in 108 minute increments over and over again (I think it’s 96 if I’m not mistaken)…It’s not that the events are repeating it’s that the TIME is repeating (which is why I believe if Ben Linus finds a way for mamas to have babies he can just stall time to where it never reaches the endgame), but like I said I’m not quite sure if the events in the loop are repeating as much as the time is repeating…So when the eventual TTing begins and you travel back into looped timed the YOU that exists within this same timespace EVERWHERE can interact either subconsciously or consciously with the TT YOU…So to me the loop is more about the SPACE existing over and over again than the events…So it’s like you’re looping ’96 so you never get to ’97, but if you TT from ’97 to ’96, EVERYTHING YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED WITHIN THIS SPACE will be apart of your conscious or subconscious mind (Seeing the beechcraft originally crash, seeing Boone die, being healthy without paralysis–All of this is apart of your mental being the minute you land in the loop)…

    Desmond being exposed to quantum levels of electromagnatism though (@ ground zero no doubt) has given him an uber-consciousness because he experiences like 9 years in a matter of seconds…So unlike Locke and company who might gradually see weird things, or have weird experiences, Desmond has a far more heightened sense of time and events that have already took place…He probably has a $hitload of unlocked memories in his head, but just can’t recall them all…

    Obviously I’m missing one huge ingredient and some of this can be easily scrutinized, but I think I’m somewhere on the right path…

  55. tsunami says:

    yo babe. u r a genius. this fits perfectly to this episode. will u mary me.

  56. Toeknee says:

    After tonight’s episode (He’s Our You), I still believe my interpretations as expressed in earlier comments are correct – whatever happened happened, you can’t change the past, etc.

    However, if it turns out I’m wrong and history is changed, I’ll feel quite foolish for being gullible enough to buy into Daniel’s theories so completely. And depending on how the rest of the story plays out, I’ll be a bit disappointed in D&C for misleading us like that.

  57. wally p says:

    Desmond being exposed to quantum levels of electromagnatism though (@ ground zero no doubt) has given him an uber-consciousness because he experiences like 9 years in a matter of seconds…So unlike Locke and company who might gradually see weird things, or have weird experiences, Desmond has a far more heightened sense of time and events that have already took place…He probably has a $hitload of unlocked memories in his head, but just can’t recall them all…

    Obviously I’m missing one huge ingredient and some of this can be easily scrutinized, but I think I’m somewhere on the right path…[/quote]

    ******************************
    Yup. I like it.
    ********************************

  58. wally p says:

    [quote comment=”324366″]After tonight’s episode (He’s Our You), I still believe my interpretations as expressed in earlier comments are correct – whatever happened happened, you can’t change the past, etc.

    However, if it turns out I’m wrong and history is changed, I’ll feel quite foolish for being gullible enough to buy into Daniel’s theories so completely. And depending on how the rest of the story plays out, I’ll be a bit disappointed in D&C for misleading us like that.[/quote]

    Widmore changed the rules, are you dissapointed in him? Why couldn’t Alex die? Daniel is in 1977 for some reason, and NOW I say, because he followed the losties there, knowing they would go to ’77. As big as time travel has become, I seriously think that the hatch was the very beggining of it- and what we saw happen in a matter of days, had already effected YEARS otherwise. All you have to do is go back and follow Desmond to Faraday. Everything that we know NOW, is what all of our Hawkings, Widmores, Bens, Alperts etc. know to be true. Via Daniel Faraday, who most likely has his own agenda… it would only be right.

  59. GRAPaPAPA says:

    [quote comment=”323971″]Since the beginning of this season, I have felt that I have a firm grasp of how the time travel is happening in the show. Let me attempt to put this into words (very hard to do) and see what you think.

    There are many time travel theories out there. LOST has decided to use the theory commonly known as “Pretzel Theory”. The way it works is this:

    Time is a string running in a linear fashion. However, imagine many circles intersecting the string of time. Events of time can be viewed as linear along the string, but the “traveling” can be viewed as circles cutting through the string, having no beginning and no end.

    A good LOST example to use is the existence of John and Richard’s compass. Looking at this object carefully, you realize the compass has no inception, nor destruction. Richard is given the compass by Locke in 1954, Locke is given the compass by Richard some time in the future. The compass exists in this circle that Locke travels on intersecting the linear string of time.

    Another good example is the rope stuck in the ground that Sawyer was holding on to. Sawyer discovers the well and is holding the rope. When the “flash” occurs, the rope gets stuck in the ground. But, Sawyer’s holding of the rope and leading to it being stuck in the ground is what will eventually lead to people building that well in the first place. therefore, the well was built because of Saywer holding the rope, an event which hadn’t occured yet in the linear string of time.

    The bottom line is the circles created by “time traveling” cause future events to effect the past, and past events to effect the future simultaneously. Richard wouldn’t know John in the future, if John didn’t introduce himself in the past, but he wouldn’t have done that if he didn’t know Richard from the future (never-ending pretzel).

    Therefore, there is only one version of time, nothing can be changed. Whatever has happened, happened. This is what Faraday meant: it doesn’t matter what you do because the linear string of time has already determined what you have done. What the oceanic 6 and the people left-behind do in the Dharma time now had already taken place when they orginally crashed on the Island.

    What will be interesting to see is the unique properties Desmond holds. What I stated above are the “rules” that Faraday was talking about, but for some reason these rules do not apply to Desmond. Potentially he can alter the timeline, which is where “Course-correction” comes into play. Charlie was supposed to die from the lightening bolt, that’s how time was supposed to go, but he changed that somehow. The “rules” don’t apply to him.

    I know it’s confusing as hell, but let me know what you think.[/quote]

    EXACTLY! Your point about the compass and rope make my head hurt. I had previously given thought to the rope, but the compass…. how did said compass come to be? Has it exsisted forever… someone had to have physically made it right?

  60. LA says:

    Ok so most of the theories talk about whether you can or can not change the end result of a certain event, activity, life, etc. So that got me thinking that maybe it’s not about the end, but the journey (totally cliché I realize) but think about it; what does “purpose” mean if your destiny is predetermined and you can’t change anything (which I don’t believe in, it just doesn’t make sense and its depressing). But anyway let’s say you can’t change what happens so the point of life then, utilizing time travel if possible, is to change how that event comes about. Maybe it’s the experience of how you got to the same end result that you can change…things to think about.

  61. Jeff GBV says:

    response to The Spiral Theory. Unless the writers pull out another twist (LOL), then Farradays theory stands: whatever happened, happened. As we saw with Charlie, if the island wants u to die, you will. One way or another it will happen. Whether or not it happens the same way might not be relevant. It could be merely that certain ‘outcomes’ need to occur. In that breath, Sawyer killed Anthony Cooper instead of Locke killing him. Would that make Sawyer the special one who is to rule the people on the island? (On the other hand it was Ben who told Locke what he must do, and he is full of IT)

  62. Nate says:

    Sayid in 1974 cannot change “his” destiny – his timeline travels with him. Nothing he does can affect his existence (or anything that has happened in “his” life) because he is embedded in his own space-time. He can shoot Ben and Ben can die – This will cause events to unfold very differently in this time progression, but it won’t do anything for Sayid (or the other time travelers in the 1970s), he is on a different record – What has happened, has happened.

  63. Rick says:

    It seems to me that there are strict rules to the space time continuum but the exception to those rules might be Desmond for whatever reason. Chosen? He was allowed to break the rules for whatever reason. I also have a feeling that yes, whatever happened, happened and will happen, but I think Daniel Faraday figured out one way that you might be able to correct the course of time , one time only. Maybe if he exposes the islands energy to the energy from the hydrogen bomb, it might result in a force strong enough to slice through time and correct it’s course. Maybe.

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