Dead Is Dead

ben_s51.jpg

Given the conclusion of last week’s episode (the Locke “I’m back from the dead moment” as Ben wakes up) and the cryptic title of this episode, I cannot help but think of the irony of the situation. If Lost has taught us anything, it would be that dead is not necessarily dead. After last week’s episode we have a better understanding of the circumstances that lead Ben to the Hostiles, and hopefully this week will find out a good bit more about the pyramid, the smoke monster and exactly how Ben loses his innocence.

ABC’s Official Show Description

Spoiler Alert

“To atone for sins of the past, Ben must attempt to summon the smoke monster in order to be judged.”

This is the first episode description I can recall where the smoke monster is actually referenced directly – for that reason alone this is really one of the more important episodes of Season 5. The implications are vast, but I doubt tonight we find out exactly what the smoke monster is, there is still too much time left in the series for that! Based on the preview, it looks like we’ll get some additional story from Ben’s off-Island experiences with the Oceanic 6 – remember how beaten and bruised he was getting on Flight 316 – just how did that happen?

Dead is Dead Episode Preview

Sneak Peeks

Sneak Peek 1 | Sneak Peek 2

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638 Responses to Dead Is Dead

  1. wallyp says:

    I’m gonna go ahead and toss this idea in the hat, just for fun. What if Ben was beating the crap out of himself (“I’m kicking my ASS, got a problem?”)so that he could render himself unconcious and switch with himself circa 1977?
    New ep tonight, keeping myself open for any possibilities. I wanna see some 77 Widmore/Hawking (yeah Hawking, you know, Ellie… Faradays mom…)

  2. LostGuRu says:

    Hello all. I’m new to the blog here, but have been an avid reader for about 6 months now. I have seen every episode, and I’m in love with this amazing show. I have a little time, so I thought I would finally post something.
    ~*~*~*~*
    [quote comment="327993"]I’m gonna go ahead and toss this idea in the hat, just for fun. What if Ben was beating the crap out of himself (“I’m kicking my ASS, got a problem?”)so that he could render himself unconcious and switch with himself circa 1977?
    New ep tonight, keeping myself open for any possibilities. I wanna see some 77 Widmore/Hawking (yeah Hawking, you know, Ellie… Faradays mom…)[/quote]
    ~*~*~*~*~

    wallyp – I never thought about the posibility of Ben self inflicting…ver interesting. I think you could def be on to something there.
    As far as what I would like to see… I really hope we get to see anything/something about how the dead can be “living” again, and more on Ben’s backstory. Maybe we will finally get to see Faraday again… present age or his younger self. I miss that guy.

    I hope soon, very soon, that we can have more of an understanding of the temple/statue/smoke monster. These are what intrigue me the most.

    Ok, now it’s the waiting game until tonight. Till later!

  3. Jason says:

    Think we’ll get any insight as to where Farraday is on tonight’s episode?

  4. LostGuRu says:

    [quote comment="328000"]Think we’ll get any insight as to where Farraday is on tonight’s episode?[/quote]
    ~*~*~*~
    Right out of my mouth, lol.

    I really hope so Jason!

  5. LINS says:

    [quote comment="328001"][quote comment="328000"]Think we’ll get any insight as to where Farraday is on tonight’s episode?[/quote]
    ~*~*~*~
    Right out of my mouth, lol.

    I really hope so Jason![/quote]

    *******************
    I don’t think we’ll see good ole Dan tonight, it sounds like this episode will be more about Ben and Smokey. I hope we get to see what Ben meant last season about “the rules”, and what is so special about the temple…maybe we’ll even get to see Alex & Rousseau?

  6. hank vega says:

    Alex was not buried, so she could be wondering around. I like the idea of Ben going back to be judged. I still believe Ben is the good one here. What about John? He could have landed in the temple, and lost his innocence too. That could explain why he is so mysterious now.

    I think the smoke monster is either Alpert or Jacob.

  7. sector7 says:

    ‘Dead is Dead’. But John is not dead. He was dead. So dead is not dead, right. Why should whatever happened, happened be correct, but not dead is dead?

    If whatever happened, happened, then the characters in ’77 have no free will, and are merely filling in the time that already happened. That’s not very exciting to me.

  8. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328017"]‘Dead is Dead’. But John is not dead. He was dead. So dead is not dead, right. Why should whatever happened, happened be correct, but not dead is dead?

    If whatever happened, happened, then the characters in ’77 have no free will, and are merely filling in the time that already happened. That’s not very exciting to me.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Agreed.

  9. PJSander says:

    Last night, I listened to the latest audio podcast… in it D&C said that they had already written the Miles/Hurley and the Time Travel explanation scene before the first episode of the season aired. I believe that could be true.

    They ALSO said that they had already written the death episode for Nikki and Paulo before their “premier” episode even aired. I believe this directly contradicts other podcasts in which they told us that they wrote N&P IN because of the fans (who wanted to see more background characters), and also wrote them OUT because of the fans (because the fans didn’t like them).

    Things that make you want to say hmmmmm.

    I have said many times that I think N&P were there for a reason. I wonder…

    : ) P

  10. Ra says:

    Is Ben being judged because he came back after turning the FDW? Or his actions throughout his life of deceit and murder?
    He turned the FDW to save the Island and keep it hidden, but Christian then told Locke that he was the one that was supposed to move it and he also says “When did listening to Ben get you anywhere worth a damn”.
    I believe that the Island controls Apparitions like Christian, Echo’s brother, Rousseau’s crew because their dead bodies are on the Island and it uses them to play out the cards as needed. Are these manifestations controlled by Richard and The Others. Are The Others themselves some sort of spirits that use these bodies? Do the others answer to someone or something larger? IMO many of Richard’s scenes show a weakness in him like he answers to someone or something. Even in the most recent episode when some of the Others say something along the lines of “you shouldn’t do this without asking Elli, and if Charles finds out” and he replies with “I don’t answer to either of them”.
    Why would this random guy question Richard’s decision making if he is in charge. I just keep feeling like there is some hidden higher person up on the Other totem pole that Richard answers to. He just seems like he is always suprised.
    Also I feel like Ben is working for this higher Island power, one could argue that it’s Jacob but then why wouldn’t Richard know about him in the past if Jacobs the head honcho. Im officially rambling

  11. RGS says:

    [quote comment="328017"]‘Dead is Dead’. But John is not dead. He was dead. So dead is not dead, right. Why should whatever happened, happened be correct, but not dead is dead?

    If whatever happened, happened, then the characters in ’77 have no free will, and are merely filling in the time that already happened. That’s not very exciting to me.[/quote]

    That’s a good point about Dead is Dead vs. WHH.

    I would argue that the characters DO have free will. They are doing what they choose to do, it’s just that it has already happened. It’s almost no different from what is going on in our own daily lives, except it’s being shown to us in a story format. I think that is where the writer’s are headed with this ideology.

  12. Ken says:

    Christian arrives on the island dead and becomes Jacob. Now Locke arrives on the island (in Christian’s shoes) dead. Is he now Jacob, and if so what happens to Christian? Is he the new Ben and Ben the new Richard? Have they all been Jacob at one time, including Whitmore?
    Just looking for some ideas on this.

  13. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="328039"]Christian arrives on the island dead and becomes Jacob. Now Locke arrives on the island (in Christian’s shoes) dead. Is he now Jacob, and if so what happens to Christian? Is he the new Ben and Ben the new Richard? Have they all been Jacob at one time, including Whitmore?
    Just looking for some ideas on this.[/quote]
    ______________________________
    Christian said he was not Jacob in ‘Cabin Fever’.

  14. ShelbyDee says:

    I’ll walk down an absurd path. “Dead is dead” may be asking us to reconsider definitions. If Locke is dead now while he obviously appears to be living – then we should rethink what is “living”. Maybe “living” means being on the time line and having an effect on events whereas “dead” is outside the timeline with an indirect effect on events and an ability to move within time/space. Maybe Alpert is dead explaining his ability to move and his near precognition. Christian couldn’t touch Locke at the bottom of the well perhaps because Christian is dead and can’t directly interfere. Obviously he is giving information and advice which effects events, but maybe that’s where the course correction comes into play? Maybe the dead aren’t keeping to themselves in an attempt to course correct. I feel like I started rambling.

  15. Jay says:

    [quote comment="328019"][quote comment="328017"]‘Dead is Dead’. But John is not dead. He was dead. So dead is not dead, right. Why should whatever happened, happened be correct, but not dead is dead?

    If whatever happened, happened, then the characters in ’77 have no free will, and are merely filling in the time that already happened. That’s not very exciting to me.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Agreed.[/quote]
    But they had free will in 77 – they are just repeating the decisions they previously made.

  16. Rita says:

    [quote comment="328017"]‘Dead is Dead’. But John is not dead. He was dead. So dead is not dead, right. Why should whatever happened, happened be correct, but not dead is dead?

    If whatever happened, happened, then the characters in ’77 have no free will, and are merely filling in the time that already happened. That’s not very exciting to me.[/quote]
    ________________________________
    But they do have free will in the sense that they made the choices in the past (1st time around – if WHH). For example, if you film a day in your life and then watch it later – the YOU in the film can’t change anything, WHH, but you DID have free will at the time. Not a perfect example, I know, but if we think of WHH this way, it might help.

  17. Jay says:

    [quote comment="328040"][quote comment="328039"]Christian arrives on the island dead and becomes Jacob. Now Locke arrives on the island (in Christian’s shoes) dead. Is he now Jacob, and if so what happens to Christian? Is he the new Ben and Ben the new Richard? Have they all been Jacob at one time, including Whitmore?
    Just looking for some ideas on this.[/quote]
    ______________________________
    Christian said he was not Jacob in ‘Cabin Fever’.[/quote]
    ***
    Maybe he lied.

  18. Rita says:

    [quote comment="328051"][quote comment="328017"]‘Dead is Dead’. But John is not dead. He was dead. So dead is not dead, right. Why should whatever happened, happened be correct, but not dead is dead?

    If whatever happened, happened, then the characters in ’77 have no free will, and are merely filling in the time that already happened. That’s not very exciting to me.[/quote]
    ________________________________
    But they do have free will in the sense that they made the choices in the past (1st time around – if WHH). For example, if you film a day in your life and then watch it later – the YOU in the film can’t change anything, WHH, but you DID have free will at the time. Not a perfect example, I know, but if we think of WHH this way, it might help.[/quote]
    _______________________
    I meant to add that maybe we should be looking at these “past” events as flashbacks – to the original happenings. No different than watching someone’s backstory, of what happened BEFORE. I’m not sold on the loop theory just yet.

  19. sector7 says:

    So RGS, Rita, Jay: You are saying that whatever happened, did happen, however dead is not really dead? Why is it inconsistant?

  20. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328051"][quote comment="328017"]‘Dead is Dead’. But John is not dead. He was dead. So dead is not dead, right. Why should whatever happened, happened be correct, but not dead is dead?

    If whatever happened, happened, then the characters in ’77 have no free will, and are merely filling in the time that already happened. That’s not very exciting to me.[/quote]
    ________________________________
    But they do have free will in the sense that they made the choices in the past (1st time around – if WHH). For example, if you film a day in your life and then watch it later – the YOU in the film can’t change anything, WHH, but you DID have free will at the time. Not a perfect example, I know, but if we think of WHH this way, it might help.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    IF they had been in the 70’s before, then to me the difference is this time around they know they are time traveling, so are they doing what they did or are they varying?

  21. Ra says:

    I believe it is consistant. The past version like young Sayid cant die..cause he didnt. But the new version can. That being said, if the new version dies on the island…there is some supernatural or unexplained process with the island/others/egyptian theme that makes you somehow not dead…maybe the title “dead is dead”…could mean..that the way we think of dead…is dead…here is a new way to think of dead…maybe?

  22. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328017"]‘Dead is Dead’. But John is not dead. He was dead. So dead is not dead, right. Why should whatever happened, happened be correct, but not dead is dead?

    If whatever happened, happened, then the characters in ’77 have no free will, and are merely filling in the time that already happened. That’s not very exciting to me.[/quote]
    Excellent post. I completely agree. It’s almost as if they are having a little fun with us.

    Maybe they are referring to smokey and if smokey kills you Dead is Dead. No coming back from that one. Is the character of Ben going to meet his end?

  23. Ra says:

    or maybe “dead is dead” could be once you die…YOU…your soul and spirit are also gone…but the island uses the bodies to carry out is will…maybe it means dont be fooled..the christian shephard you see isnt christian shepherd…christian is dead…its the island/others?…kinda like Rousseau’s fiancee who turned evil

  24. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328052"][quote comment="328040"][quote comment="328039"]Christian arrives on the island dead and becomes Jacob. Now Locke arrives on the island (in Christian’s shoes) dead. Is he now Jacob, and if so what happens to Christian? Is he the new Ben and Ben the new Richard? Have they all been Jacob at one time, including Whitmore?
    Just looking for some ideas on this.[/quote]
    ______________________________
    Christian said he was not Jacob in ‘Cabin Fever’.[/quote]
    ***
    Maybe he lied.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Maybe, but I doubt it. Has he been known to lie? Does that fit with his character? IMO, CS or any other character we met is NOT Jacob.

  25. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328061"]the christian shephard you see isnt christian shepherd…[/quote]
    Could be, but the Locke we see appears to be Locke.

  26. Ra says:

    true true lost4ever…maybe hes special…or im just wrong

  27. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328062"][quote comment="328052"][quote comment="328040"][quote comment="328039"]Christian arrives on the island dead and becomes Jacob. Now Locke arrives on the island (in Christian’s shoes) dead. Is he now Jacob, and if so what happens to Christian? Is he the new Ben and Ben the new Richard? Have they all been Jacob at one time, including Whitmore?
    Just looking for some ideas on this.[/quote]
    ______________________________
    Christian said he was not Jacob in ‘Cabin Fever’.[/quote]
    ***
    Maybe he lied.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Maybe, but I doubt it. Has he been known to lie? Does that fit with his character? IMO, CS or any other character we met is NOT Jacob.[/quote]
    _____

    If Jacob is anybody, it’s Vincent. Speaking of dogs and islands(to myself of course)…I have another example of how everything reminds me of LOST!!

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2009/04/australian-cattle-dog-survives-for-months-alone-on-australian-island.html

  28. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="328056"][quote comment="328051"][quote comment="328017"]‘Dead is Dead’. But John is not dead. He was dead. So dead is not dead, right. Why should whatever happened, happened be correct, but not dead is dead?

    If whatever happened, happened, then the characters in ’77 have no free will, and are merely filling in the time that already happened. That’s not very exciting to me.[/quote]
    ________________________________
    But they do have free will in the sense that they made the choices in the past (1st time around – if WHH). For example, if you film a day in your life and then watch it later – the YOU in the film can’t change anything, WHH, but you DID have free will at the time. Not a perfect example, I know, but if we think of WHH this way, it might help.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    IF they had been in the 70’s before, then to me the difference is this time around they know they are time traveling, so are they doing what they did or are they varying?[/quote]
    __________________________
    I haven’t thought about it like this, but I get it. If the ’77 losties had already lived in ’77 back when ’77 came around the first time (before time travel) then what were they thinking at that point and how come they don’t remember ’77 from the first time? They couldn’t have been in ’77 the first time around because they had not time traveled yet. It’s like this: you have to go through ’77 without the losties the first time around so the losties can get to 2007 and time travel back to ’77. How could they be in ’77 without time traveling there?

  29. stupidmop says:

    I’m interested to see what’s going on with the Ajira 316 survivors. They have to follow up on Walt’s dream when he said that locke was surrounded by people that wanted to kill him.

  30. Sawyersstubblebeard says:

    1st time poster. One thought occurred to me thats probably not true but somewhat intrigues me. What if the 77 losties and what they did or did not do to Ben has something to do with Locke now being alive? The fact that what happened to little Ben in 77 caused 2008 Ben to not kill Locke. Just a weird thought, that doesn’t really flow with the normal things we’ve seen with dead people in the show.

  31. Sawyersstubblebeard says:

    1st time poster. One thought occurred to me thats probably not true but somewhat intrigues me. What if the 77 losties and what they did or did not do to Ben has something to do with Locke now being alive? The fact that what happened to little Ben in 77 caused 2008 Ben to not kill Locke. Just a weird thought, that doesn’t really flow with the normal things we’ve seen with dead people in the show.

  32. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328067"]
    I haven’t thought about it like this, but I get it. If the ’77 losties had already lived in ’77 back when ’77 came around the first time (before time travel) then what were they thinking at that point and how come they don’t remember ’77 from the first time? They couldn’t have been in ’77 the first time around because they had not time traveled yet. It’s like this: you have to go through ’77 without the losties the first time around so the losties can get to 2007 and time travel back to ’77. How could they be in ’77 without time traveling there?[/quote]
    That’s a lot of 77’s but I see what you are saying. Why would Sayid shoot Lil Ben the first time around if he didn’t experience all the things Ben did to him, right?

  33. Heidi says:

    I know this is off topic but can I just say, I am really disappointed in Lost lately. Usually I am excited about Wednesdays (pathetic I know) but I forgot today that it was even on. I feel like Lost is just not the same. Not only is it completely NOT believeable its stupid at times. I think about this up coming episode of “Ben summoning the ever so illusive smoke monster to judge him” just sounds ridiculous. Now I haven’t seen the episode yet (obviously) so maybe it will be better than I am hoping. And yes I am still going to continue to watch but I just feel its not what it used to be. I feel like they are running out of things to write about. Yes, its clever how a lot of things are tied in and the writers are definitely gifted. But I am so bummed out about it. Does anyone else feel this way? Just curious?
    Thanks!

  34. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328067"][quote comment="328056"][quote comment="328051"][quote comment="328017"]‘Dead is Dead’. But John is not dead. He was dead. So dead is not dead, right. Why should whatever happened, happened be correct, but not dead is dead?

    If whatever happened, happened, then the characters in ’77 have no free will, and are merely filling in the time that already happened. That’s not very exciting to me.[/quote]
    ________________________________
    But they do have free will in the sense that they made the choices in the past (1st time around – if WHH). For example, if you film a day in your life and then watch it later – the YOU in the film can’t change anything, WHH, but you DID have free will at the time. Not a perfect example, I know, but if we think of WHH this way, it might help.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    IF they had been in the 70’s before, then to me the difference is this time around they know they are time traveling, so are they doing what they did or are they varying?[/quote]
    __________________________
    I haven’t thought about it like this, but I get it. If the ’77 losties had already lived in ’77 back when ’77 came around the first time (before time travel) then what were they thinking at that point and how come they don’t remember ’77 from the first time? They couldn’t have been in ’77 the first time around because they had not time traveled yet. It’s like this: you have to go through ’77 without the losties the first time around so the losties can get to 2007 and time travel back to ’77. How could they be in ’77 without time traveling there?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    YES!!!! So my previous post…what ever happened, happened is different that what ever happened ALWAYS happened.

  35. LostGuRu says:

    [quote comment="328075"]I know this is off topic but can I just say, I am really disappointed in Lost lately. Usually I am excited about Wednesdays (pathetic I know) but I forgot today that it was even on. I feel like Lost is just not the same. Not only is it completely NOT believeable its stupid at times. I think about this up coming episode of “Ben summoning the ever so illusive smoke monster to judge him” just sounds ridiculous. Now I haven’t seen the episode yet (obviously) so maybe it will be better than I am hoping. And yes I am still going to continue to watch but I just feel its not what it used to be. I feel like they are running out of things to write about. Yes, its clever how a lot of things are tied in and the writers are definitely gifted. But I am so bummed out about it. Does anyone else feel this way? Just curious?
    Thanks![/quote]
    ~*~*~*~*~
    Heidi,

    I truely believe that the writers of the show know exactly what’s going to happen all the way to the finale. Yes, it’s true we actually have a deadline for seasons, maybe making for less “filler” episodes. I know alot of you out there think that there already filler episodes, including 2 weeks ago (which, IMO, was NOT filler what-so-ever), but I just know the writers can’t afford to just “lose” an episode due to filler.

    So, Heidi, I guess I kind of disagree with you in that I’m not bummed at all, in fact I always look forward to Wednesdays. Just keep an open mind and let the writers take us there. We have come so far. Somethings seem ridiculous, but everything has it’s purpose, we will all see! :-)

    till Later!

  36. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="328076"][quote comment="328067"][quote comment="328056"][quote comment="328051"][quote comment="328017"]
    YES!!!! So my previous post…what ever happened, happened is different that what ever happened ALWAYS happened.[/quote]
    ___________________________
    Got it. ;)

  37. LostGuRu says:

    I do have a question regarding the “Sneak Peak #2 above.

    Who are these people who have these clips of the episodes before it even airs? The poster on youtube said he has had it for months now.

    Just curious.

    Sorry for going off topic, but it still kind of refers to this coming episode. :-)

    till Later!

  38. dukes909 says:

    Heidi: I feel the same way. Maybe I’m wrong but I thought D&C said way back when that everything could be explained without resorting to some mumbo jumbo time travel / zombies / magic / nanobots etc etc. They seem to be plunking away at this list, and their constant references to “zombie season” in the podcasts make me think they’re having a laugh on us.

    One (unrelated) question though. So, Kate left the harbor, took Aaron to his grandmother, then came back to Jack & got on the plane the next day, right? Ok, so how did her hair go from being long, straight & nearly jet black (looked good, though) to being kinda short, frizzy & old island style brown again when Sawyer first sees her?? Petty, I know, but she looks like 2 different people.

  39. Rita says:

    [quote comment="328078"][quote comment="328075"]I know this is off topic but can I just say, I am really disappointed in Lost lately. Usually I am excited about Wednesdays (pathetic I know) but I forgot today that it was even on. I feel like Lost is just not the same. Not only is it completely NOT believeable its stupid at times. I think about this up coming episode of “Ben summoning the ever so illusive smoke monster to judge him” just sounds ridiculous. Now I haven’t seen the episode yet (obviously) so maybe it will be better than I am hoping. And yes I am still going to continue to watch but I just feel its not what it used to be. I feel like they are running out of things to write about. Yes, its clever how a lot of things are tied in and the writers are definitely gifted. But I am so bummed out about it. Does anyone else feel this way? Just curious?
    Thanks![/quote]
    ~*~*~*~*~
    Heidi,

    I truely believe that the writers of the show know exactly what’s going to happen all the way to the finale. Yes, it’s true we actually have a deadline for seasons, maybe making for less “filler” episodes. I know alot of you out there think that there already filler episodes, including 2 weeks ago (which, IMO, was NOT filler what-so-ever), but I just know the writers can’t afford to just “lose” an episode due to filler.

    So, Heidi, I guess I kind of disagree with you in that I’m not bummed at all, in fact I always look forward to Wednesdays. Just keep an open mind and let the writers take us there. We have come so far. Somethings seem ridiculous, but everything has it’s purpose, we will all see! :-)

    till Later![/quote]
    _____________________________________
    Heidi, I’m with LostGuRu on this one. I LOVE LOST!! Can’t help it. Keep an open mind – we don’t know if what the previews suggest will be ridiculous or not until we see it. Honestly, even if it IS ridiculous, I WILL LOVE IT! It is just a story and doesn’t HAVE to be more than that. It is interesting that first we all scream that we want answers, but when they start coming in, we call the episodes “filler”. Hang in there, I think it will be worth it. :)

  40. Ra says:

    To me Faraday is the key. Whatever he is off doing I believe he is the only one that can make this show not as crazy. If they give scientific explanations to the TT (i.e. Quantum Mechanics, Relativity, and Theoretical physics) then maybe it wont seem so NOT believable.

    I love the show and hope Lost is the seed that starts a new wave of TV just like it. Steering us away from Reality TV and toward an interaction between the show and the viewers. I love how this is a show that requires thinking, theories and discussion

  41. RGS says:

    [quote comment="328067"]
    I haven’t thought about it like this, but I get it. If the ’77 losties had already lived in ’77 back when ’77 came around the first time (before time travel) then what were they thinking at that point and how come they don’t remember ’77 from the first time? They couldn’t have been in ’77 the first time around because they had not time traveled yet. It’s like this: you have to go through ’77 without the losties the first time around so the losties can get to 2007 and time travel back to ’77. How could they be in ’77 without time traveling there?[/quote]

    Another way to look at it that may be helpful is to think of the island as an actual entity, or entirely separate world. We are looking at things from the perspective of the ISLAND. In the ISLAND’s time line, the 2004 Losties travelled back to ’77 and did their thing.

    From the perspective of the 2004 Losties, it was their second trip to the entity of the ISLAND, but first time being in 1977 ISLAND. To the 1977 Dharma folks, their take was that it was the first time those Losties appeared on the ISLAND.

    The ISLAND’s timeline would/could look something like:

    1000 BC: 4 toed Statue of____ built
    1502 AD: Black Rock lands (all times are guesses)

    1948: US Army Lands and starts tinkering around igniting battle between Others and them.

    1952: 6 TT Losties run into Widmore & Co., Locke goes and talks to Richard Alpert giving him a compass then disappearing right before their eyes.

    1954: H-Bomb buried on island

    1956: RA goes on a mission to confirm weird info given to him by Locke.

    1970: Dharma lands and begins experiments/other stuff Others decide to let them slide until they get too nosey.

    1971: War breaks out between Dharma and Others, truce is declared.

    1972: (POSSIBLE THEORY) Locke or Jacob tells RA that Dharma’s got to go.

    1973: Others really don’t want Dharma folk on ISLAND, begin plot to rid themselves of them by having RA approach young Ben, possibly other children?(just another random theory).

    1974: Sawyer & Co. land on ISLAND and save Ethan’s mother, interacts with RA, mention’s Locke again. This fires up RA and he makes another attempt to convince Locke through his HS teacher to check out Mittelos.

    1977: Rest of Losties appear on ISLAND, Sayid shoots Ben, Ben is handed over to RA.

    1977-1980: Dharma stations built, fully operational.

    1980: (Possible theory) Daniel Faraday causes ‘the incident.’

    1984: (Possible theory) Losties flash out of 1977 ISLAND, to 2007 ISLAND, shortly after Ajira crash.

    1987?: Rousseau’s team crashes on island, encounter Jin, Jin disappears before Rousseau’s eyes.

    1992: Purge happens?

    200X: Desmond lands on ISLAND begins pushing button.

    2004 Losties crash on ISLAND

    2004: Losties split, some leave ISLAND, some begin TT.

    2007: Losties that left return on Ajira flight splitting again to 1977 ISLAND, and 2007 ISLAND.

    2007: Something that happens in tonight’s episode

    2007: Ceasar and friends try to track down Locke (for some reason) and begin firing on him and other Losties in other rigger right before they disappear.

    Feel free to add other events.

  42. LostGuRu says:

    Right there with ya Ra.

    till Later!

  43. Willow says:

    [quote comment="328075"]I know this is off topic but can I just say, I am really disappointed in Lost lately. Usually I am excited about Wednesdays (pathetic I know) but I forgot today that it was even on. I feel like Lost is just not the same. Not only is it completely NOT believeable its stupid at times. I think about this up coming episode of “Ben summoning the ever so illusive smoke monster to judge him” just sounds ridiculous. Now I haven’t seen the episode yet (obviously) so maybe it will be better than I am hoping. And yes I am still going to continue to watch but I just feel its not what it used to be. I feel like they are running out of things to write about. Yes, its clever how a lot of things are tied in and the writers are definitely gifted. But I am so bummed out about it. Does anyone else feel this way? Just curious?
    Thanks![/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I do not feel that way at all. If you were trying to explain the smoke monster to someone who did not watch Lost, but just heard that description of this episode, it would really sound silly. I find the smoke monster terrifying and can’t wait to see it “judging” Ben. We really are getting a lot of answers now and maybe the answers are not going to be what everyone wants them to be, but I find Lost to be as brilliant as ever. I can’t wait for Wednesday nights. The first thought that crosses my mind on Wednesday mornings is that Lost is on tonight. My experience of Lost is that it is the best tv show I have watched, my all time favorite.

  44. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328081"]I do have a question regarding the “Sneak Peak #2 above.

    Who are these people who have these clips of the episodes before it even airs? The poster on youtube said he has had it for months now.

    Just curious.

    Sorry for going off topic, but it still kind of refers to this coming episode. :-)

    till Later![/quote]

    I am pretty sure that the “no spoiler” rule applies to the “sneak peak” videos (above) even though they are there. I know that LostGuRu didn’t mention things that happened specifically in the videos, so this isn’t about that – just wanted to put that out there so that those of us who want to avoid ALL spoilers don’t have to avoid this site, too!

    As to where people get these clips, I don’t know about the YouTube ones, but I know that ABC releases clips to the media early Wednesday.

    : ) P

  45. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="328056"][quote comment="328051"][quote comment="328017"]‘Dead is Dead’. But John is not dead. He was dead. So dead is not dead, right. Why should whatever happened, happened be correct, but not dead is dead?

    If whatever happened, happened, then the characters in ’77 have no free will, and are merely filling in the time that already happened. That’s not very exciting to me.[/quote]
    ________________________________
    But they do have free will in the sense that they made the choices in the past (1st time around – if WHH). For example, if you film a day in your life and then watch it later – the YOU in the film can’t change anything, WHH, but you DID have free will at the time. Not a perfect example, I know, but if we think of WHH this way, it might help.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    IF they had been in the 70’s before, then to me the difference is this time around they know they are time traveling, so are they doing what they did or are they varying?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    They, in the 70’s, always knew they were time traveling. Sawyer, in the 70’s, is always 35 years old and has always experienced his first 35 years of life. Sawyer, in 2004 can’t remember the 70’s because he is only 34 years old and hasn’t been to the 70’s yet. If there is a Sawyer in 2010 he will remember it all because he will be 40 years old and will have experienced all of it. It sort of takes 4 demionsional thinking.

  46. LostGrrl says:

    [quote comment="328082"] So, Kate left the harbor, took Aaron to his grandmother, then came back to Jack & got on the plane the next day, right? Ok, so how did her hair go from being long, straight & nearly jet black (looked good, though) to being kinda short, frizzy & old island style brown again when Sawyer first sees her?? Petty, I know, but she looks like 2 different people.[/quote]

    I think it’s a simple as… off island, she’s got a hair dryer, a flat iron, etc. and the time to do her hair. Then she gives up her kid, hits the sack with Jack, gets on an airplane (hair braided at that point, I recall), flashes out, and then lands in the water on the island, where her hair frizzes out on the VW bus ride to see Sawyer. And I’m not even a hairdresser!

  47. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328085"]To me Faraday is the key. Whatever he is off doing I believe he is the only one that can make this show not as crazy. If they give scientific explanations to the TT (i.e. Quantum Mechanics, Relativity, and Theoretical physics) then maybe it wont seem so NOT believable.

    I love the show and hope Lost is the seed that starts a new wave of TV just like it. Steering us away from Reality TV and toward an interaction between the show and the viewers. I love how this is a show that requires thinking, theories and discussion[/quote]
    _____

    I agree!!!!

  48. Tasha says:

    Comment 46

    LOL Funny!

  49. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328091"][quote comment="328081"]I do have a question regarding the “Sneak Peak #2 above.

    Who are these people who have these clips of the episodes before it even airs? The poster on youtube said he has had it for months now.

    Just curious.

    Sorry for going off topic, but it still kind of refers to this coming episode. :-)

    till Later![/quote]

    I am pretty sure that the “no spoiler” rule applies to the “sneak peak” videos (above) even though they are there. I know that LostGuRu didn’t mention things that happened specifically in the videos, so this isn’t about that – just wanted to put that out there so that those of us who want to avoid ALL spoilers don’t have to avoid this site, too!

    As to where people get these clips, I don’t know about the YouTube ones, but I know that ABC releases clips to the media early Wednesday.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Yes, discussing previews is a spoiler on this site (at least that’s how it used to be).

  50. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="328092"][quote comment="328056"][quote comment="328051"][quote comment="328017"]
    They, in the 70’s, always knew they were time traveling. Sawyer, in the 70’s, is always 35 years old and has always experienced his first 35 years of life. Sawyer, in 2004 can’t remember the 70’s because he is only 34 years old and hasn’t been to the 70’s yet. If there is a Sawyer in 2010 he will remember it all because he will be 40 years old and will have experienced all of it. It sort of takes 4 demionsional thinking.[/quote]
    _________________________________
    I disagree. You didn’t meet yourself 5 minutes ago. However, if at some point in the future you are able to travel back in time to this day 5 minutes ago you could meet yourself. It didn’t happen that way the first time around.

    This is the problem I have with whatever happened, ALWAYS happened. It’s that we all want to time travel to the past and change things for the better. A story that doesn’t allow that crushes that dream. To a certain degree, I want to go back while retaining my current memory so I won’t make the mistakes I’ve made, so I can invest in Microsoft, and maybe improve the world along the way.

  51. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328097"]To a certain degree, I want to go back while retaining my current memory so I won’t make the mistakes I’ve made, so I can invest in Microsoft, and maybe improve the world along the way.[/quote]

    ROFLOL.

    : ) P

  52. RGS says:

    [quote comment="328097"]
    I disagree. You didn’t meet yourself 5 minutes ago. However, if at some point in the future you are able to travel back in time to this day 5 minutes ago you could meet yourself. It didn’t happen that way the first time around.

    This is the problem I have with whatever happened, ALWAYS happened. It’s that we all want to time travel to the past and change things for the better. A story that doesn’t allow that crushes that dream. To a certain degree, I want to go back while retaining my current memory so I won’t make the mistakes I’ve made, so I can invest in Microsoft, and maybe improve the world along the way.[/quote]

    Maybe D&C stands for Dream Crushers, because they are also presenting the story as if characters did not have the desire to change something in the past (i.e. Sawyer’s comment to Juliette about seeing Kate again when delivering Claire’s baby) and it is something that should not happen (Marvin Candle’s panic about letting the two rabbits be too close).

    So while in your example you could meet your younger version, you would not be able to, either because THE ISLAND would not let you, or you wouldn’t have the desire to do so, or something else would prevent it. Moreover, the WHH folks would then say, “yeah you could’ve met yourself…but you didn’t…that’s just the way it went down.”

  53. RGS says:

    See what happens when one tinkers with something w/o fully understanding how to do it (see my last 1/2 regular 1/2 bold post). Just like revisiting yourself w/o fully understanding the consequences, you could end up ripping the flex capacitor.

  54. LostGuRu says:

    [quote comment="328096"][quote comment="328091"][quote comment="328081"]I do have a question regarding the “Sneak Peak #2 above.

    Who are these people who have these clips of the episodes before it even airs? The poster on youtube said he has had it for months now.

    Just curious.

    Sorry for going off topic, but it still kind of refers to this coming episode. :-)

    till Later![/quote]

    I am pretty sure that the “no spoiler” rule applies to the “sneak peak” videos (above) even though they are there. I know that LostGuRu didn’t mention things that happened specifically in the videos, so this isn’t about that – just wanted to put that out there so that those of us who want to avoid ALL spoilers don’t have to avoid this site, too!

    As to where people get these clips, I don’t know about the YouTube ones, but I know that ABC releases clips to the media early Wednesday.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Yes, discussing previews is a spoiler on this site (at least that’s how it used to be).[/quote]
    ~*~*~*~*~
    Thanks guys. Just to clarify though. I didn’t watch it, I was directed to the video and stopped it right away after i realized it was from tonight’s episode.

    I would never spoil anything for you all and even myself. :-)

    sorry if I gave the implication.

    till Later!

  55. LostGuRu says:

    Oh yeah!!
    5hr 20 min till tonights show!!!!!!

    I’m really excited!!(if you can’t tell)

    till Later!

  56. Ra says:

    I know I threw this out there already but I’d love to hear any/all thoughts on what exactly Ben is being judged for..is it because once Richard took him into the temple and made him one of them a certain set of rules may have been laid before him. Like once you leave the island you can never come back. Maybe thats why Ben had so much help off the Island from people like Jill the butcher and Elle. Maybe they too have left and are banished but still “one of them”?

  57. Ra says:

    or was it because hes just a bad dude and smokeys pissed?

  58. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="328104"]or was it because hes just a bad dude and smokeys pissed?[/quote]
    I think smokey hungry and has a cravin for a ben sandwich. Hold the onions please.

  59. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328103"]I know I threw this out there already but I’d love to hear any/all thoughts on what exactly Ben is being judged for..is it because once Richard took him into the temple and made him one of them a certain set of rules may have been laid before him. Like once you leave the island you can never come back. Maybe thats why Ben had so much help off the Island from people like Jill the butcher and Elle. Maybe they too have left and are banished but still “one of them”?[/quote]
    _____

    When did Ben say he was there to be judged?

  60. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="328106"][quote comment="328103"]I know I threw this out there already but I’d love to hear any/all thoughts on what exactly Ben is being judged for..is it because once Richard took him into the temple and made him one of them a certain set of rules may have been laid before him. Like once you leave the island you can never come back. Maybe thats why Ben had so much help off the Island from people like Jill the butcher and Elle. Maybe they too have left and are banished but still “one of them”?[/quote]
    _____

    When did Ben say he was there to be judged?[/quote]
    ___________________
    Officially he hasn’t yet.

  61. Ra says:

    in the promo he say “i came here to be judged”. I dont beleive thats a spoiler is it? I mean its on TV everyday. If it is I apologize.

  62. Ra says:

    I guess rule number 4 covers that. I didnt see it and I apologize. I wont let that happen again, but I still think thats no spoiler…I mean cmon..its one thing to try and find leaked answers but who doesnt stay tuned for scenes from the next lost…do you guys honestly change the channel when you see a lost commercial?…if so…props to you…sorry again

  63. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328108"]in the promo he say “i came here to be judged”. I dont beleive thats a spoiler is it? I mean its on TV everyday. If it is I apologize.[/quote]

    Yeah, it is a spoiler. Some of us manage to avoid all commercials, including the previews for the following week. I am going to stick my fingers in my ears, hum loudly and pretend I didn’t read that.

    I know you didn’t mean it, and appreciate the apology. Just saying, YES, it is a spoiler, so others don’t follow suit.

    : ) P

  64. Miraks says:

    Back after a two week break of no comments (had baby on the 27th and have a eighteen month old at home).

    Maybe the smoke monster is made up of the consciousness of the “elders” or prevoius leaders. Ben broke the rules by turning the wheel when he was not supposed to, and then returned to the island, which, once again, he was not supposed to do. In the mean time he killed Locke (for all purposes), and who knows whom else. Seeing that the island brought Locke back to life, Ben knows that he messed up. He now has to go in front of the elders, aka smokie, and be judged on whether he can remain on the island, or if he is to be exiled.

  65. Amber says:

    [quote comment="328073"][quote comment="328067"]
    I haven’t thought about it like this, but I get it. If the ’77 losties had already lived in ’77 back when ’77 came around the first time (before time travel) then what were they thinking at that point and how come they don’t remember ’77 from the first time? They couldn’t have been in ’77 the first time around because they had not time traveled yet. It’s like this: you have to go through ’77 without the losties the first time around so the losties can get to 2007 and time travel back to ’77. How could they be in ’77 without time traveling there?[/quote]
    That’s a lot of 77’s but I see what you are saying. Why would Sayid shoot Lil Ben the first time around if he didn’t experience all the things Ben did to him, right?[/quote]
    ——–
    lost4ever so are you saying they arent in a time loop? I just cant get my mind around the whatever happened happened thing! because of what you said right there! why would he shoot him the first time around for no reason. he had to experience all that ben did to him for him to have a reason to try and kill him. so there is a time loop??? but why wouldnt they remember doing this before? being in the 70’s before

  66. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328110"]I guess rule number 4 covers that. I didnt see it and I apologize. I wont let that happen again, but I still think thats no spoiler…I mean cmon..its one thing to try and find leaked answers but who doesnt stay tuned for scenes from the next lost…do you guys honestly change the channel when you see a lost commercial?..[/quote]
    I do. I learned my lesson last year, although rule number 4 is rarely followed because of all the new posters, like I was last year when I “broke the rule”.:)

  67. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328112"]Back after a two week break of no comments (had baby on the 27th and have a eighteen month old at home).
    [/quote]
    Welcome back and congrats!!

  68. Ra says:

    I dont know whos in charge of this site but isnt it alittle silly that its at the top if we are not sopposed to discuss it…thats kind of confusing for newcomers …wont happen again though…please dont red shirt me and sentance me to a frogurt death

  69. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328116"]I dont know whos in charge of this site but isnt it alittle silly that its at the top if we are not sopposed to discuss it…thats kind of confusing for newcomers …wont happen again though…please dont red shirt me and sentance me to a frogurt death[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    It’s cool. But if you look above the promos it says SPOILER ALERT…then the rules say don’t discuss preview. You can look at them if you want…just don’t talk about them.

  70. Mia says:

    Congrats Miraks on your new edition! I too have 2 young children. Ironically our baby was born on September 22nd!!!

  71. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328113"][quote comment="328073"][quote comment="328067"]
    I haven’t thought about it like this, but I get it. If the ’77 losties had already lived in ’77 back when ’77 came around the first time (before time travel) then what were they thinking at that point and how come they don’t remember ’77 from the first time? They couldn’t have been in ’77 the first time around because they had not time traveled yet. It’s like this: you have to go through ’77 without the losties the first time around so the losties can get to 2007 and time travel back to ’77. How could they be in ’77 without time traveling there?[/quote]
    That’s a lot of 77’s but I see what you are saying. Why would Sayid shoot Lil Ben the first time around if he didn’t experience all the things Ben did to him, right?[/quote]
    ——–
    lost4ever so are you saying they arent in a time loop? I just cant get my mind around the whatever happened happened thing! because of what you said right there! why would he shoot him the first time around for no reason. he had to experience all that ben did to him for him to have a reason to try and kill him. so there is a time loop??? but why wouldnt they remember doing this before? being in the 70’s before[/quote]
    I have no idea what I’m saying.:) I am on the side that thinks WHH but not WH, ACTUALLY happened. I can’t wrap my head around the IDEA of the first time around, so I guess I am not buying the time loop theory, at least not yet. It has confused me ever since it was posted on this blog a year or so ago.

  72. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="328116"]I dont know whos in charge of this site but isnt it alittle silly that its at the top if we are not sopposed to discuss it…thats kind of confusing for newcomers …wont happen again though…please dont red shirt me and sentance me to a frogurt death[/quote]
    _____________________
    Feel lucky you’re not the one that has to be judged before smokey.

  73. LostGrrl says:

    Hey – maybe Frogurt is Jacob! No stinking fire torch can stop him!

  74. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328112"] In the mean time he killed Locke (for all purposes), and who knows whom else. Seeing that the island brought Locke back to life, Ben knows that he messed up. He now has to go in front of the elders, aka smokie, and be judged on whether he can remain on the island, or if he is to be exiled.[/quote]
    Congrats Miraks.

    I remember when smokey first approached Eko, when he was with Charlie. I remember seeing the images that smokey flashed to him and they appeared to be events that happened to him during his life.

  75. Rita says:

    Congratulations Miraks! Funny, I always thought you were male. Guess not!! :)

  76. Adapa1 says:

    [quote comment="328017"]‘Dead is Dead’. But John is not dead. He was dead. So dead is not dead, right. Why should whatever happened, happened be correct, but not dead is dead?

    If whatever happened, happened, then the characters in ’77 have no free will, and are merely filling in the time that already happened. That’s not very exciting to me.[/quote]
    ******
    I’m goona have to agree with you there. I don’t think we’re supposed to take the episode titles too litterally. The past has proven for them to simply serve as good fuel for the fire. If we too take WHH literally it always rules out free will and we’re left with a good explantion for the 108 loop if you ask me….an attempt to keep whatever always happens from happening.

    This is mhy theory and I’m stickin to it…
    There are two methods of Time travel the conscious and the physical. I think the nosebleeds on both methods of Time Travel are do the proximity one has from the other version of himself AND the duration of consciousness in that version. Too long or too close leads to nosebleeds followed by death. Can’t have two versions of yourself in the 70’s right? Charlotte’s last words was a simple merging of consciousness with her younger self. If your future self dies in the past your consciousness is sent to that past version. Meaning charlotte’s mind went back to the kid version in the 70’s just as Desmonds would have been merged with his younger self had not Farraday saved him. Of course, if you do die and younger consciousness reboots itself into your younger version, you remember nothing.

    SO…I think that the others have the ability to unstick ones mind from time and send it to a past/future version of yourself …. OR *drum roll* another persons body or “Remember when we used to celebrate birthdays?”

    Once in the temple, Maybe Richard sends the Bens consciousness to the to the future version of Ben on the smaller island.

    I still say Jacobs consciousness was sent through time into John

    I think the end game numbers/incident scenario causes the death of all the losties who’s consciouness are all immediately sent back to the past which coarse corrects them all right back to flight 815 with recollection. Which means all they had to do was stay and the wouldn’t have ended up dying in the past. What we know of John and Charlottes past is certainly implies the possibilty of this.

    I think they should have kept pushing that button “Time travels a bitch” ;-)

    I ‘d also like to agree with the whole 108 minute time loop theory. The rules do not apply to Desmond because he was the ONLY person to arrive on the island DURING the time loop that wasn’t there before….AND who survived long enough to leave. Therefore he has the ability change the time line anytime before 2004

  77. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328118"]Congrats Miraks on your new edition! I too have 2 young children. Ironically our baby was born on September 22nd!!![/quote]
    ____

    You are so lucky!! I want a baby born on Sept. 22!! If it’s a boy I am naming him Aaron or Jacob!

  78. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328112"]Back after a two week break of no comments (had baby on the 27th and have a eighteen month old at home).

    quote]

    Gratz! You are gonna have your hands full! lol

  79. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328128"]You are so lucky!! I want a baby born on Sept. 22!! If it’s a boy I am naming him Aaron or Jacob![/quote]

    Congrats, Miraks! You picked a couple of good weeks to take time to be with the baby – it was a bit heated around here in your absence! LOL.

    Tasha, as long as you don’t name him Oceanic, or LOST, or Darlton, I think we’re good! LOL.

    Television and movies definitely shape the baby-naming process. Before Splash, there were no Madisons around. Until Days of Our Lives, no one had a Kayla. Until (the first) 90210, no one had a Brandon or Dylan. Nobody heard of Mallory or Chandler until Family Ties and Friends. I wonder how many Evangelines, Hurleys and Juliets there will be in Kindergarten in a few years!?

    : ) P

  80. Adapa1 says:

    So podcast is not spoiler?

  81. MoreLostThanYou says:

    Someone mentioned the island being critical of Ben perhaps for leaving. If that’s the case then RA is in trouble for leaving to pick up Juliette. Ethan already got his. All I can say is I hope so much light is shed on Ben tonite and I have a feeling he’ll come out on top. I really think he’s a good guy and believes in Locke’s importance. I remember thinking Locke couldn’t kill himself and return to the island because that may ruin his, call it “purity”. Anyways, GO BEN

  82. LINS says:

    [quote comment="328130"][quote comment="328128"]You are so lucky!! I want a baby born on Sept. 22!! If it’s a boy I am naming him Aaron or Jacob![/quote]

    Congrats, Miraks! You picked a couple of good weeks to take time to be with the baby – it was a bit heated around here in your absence! LOL.

    Tasha, as long as you don’t name him Oceanic, or LOST, or Darlton, I think we’re good! LOL.

    Television and movies definitely shape the baby-naming process. Before Splash, there were no Madisons around. Until Days of Our Lives, no one had a Kayla. Until (the first) 90210, no one had a Brandon or Dylan. Nobody heard of Mallory or Chandler until Family Ties and Friends. I wonder how many Evangelines, Hurleys and Juliets there will be in Kindergarten in a few years!?

    : ) P[/quote]

    ********************
    Congrats Miraks! I had my second in August, it certainly makes life more interesting!

    PJ, I’ll bet the top names in Kindergarten are Emma and Benjamin…Friends was a pretty popular show five or so years ago too, lots of little Emmas running around!

    In other news…I’m so excited to learn more about Ben tonight, maybe we will feel differently about him if we get to see how he “lost his innocence”…seems interesting that that is the term used, when we saw Rousseau’s husband post-Smokey he seemed pretty intent on killing his pregnant wife…does Smokey invoke that level of hostility in all it’s victims? Maybe they’re called Hostiles for a real reason!

  83. sector7 says:

    Congrats Miraks! My wife’s due date was April 4. Still no baby yet. I thought it would have happened today for sure (Murphy’s Law since Lost is on tonight). We’re naming him Elijah. Watch it happen during the ep tonight! Funny that my cousin had a baby several months ago and named him Ethan. I said, “why? Don’t you watch Lost?”

  84. Rita says:

    [quote comment="328137"]Congrats Miraks! My wife’s due date was April 4. Still no baby yet. I thought it would have happened today for sure (Murphy’s Law since Lost is on tonight). We’re naming him Elijah. Watch it happen during the ep tonight! Funny that my cousin had a baby several months ago and named him Ethan. I said, “why? Don’t you watch Lost?”[/quote]
    __________________________________
    Congrats to you too Sector7!! Here’s hoping it happens very soon for your wife’s sake. Elijah is a nice name.

  85. Adapa1 says:

    quote comment=”328130″][quote comment="328128"]
    Television and movies definitely shape the baby-naming process. Before Splash, there were no Madisons around. Until Days of Our Lives, no one had a Kayla. Until (the first) 90210, no one had a Brandon or Dylan. Nobody heard of Mallory or Chandler until Family Ties and Friends. I wonder how many Evangelines, Hurleys and Juliets there will be in Kindergarten in a few years!?

    : ) P[/quote]

    *****
    I just realized how old you bloggers are……. LOL!!!! I just had to take a stab. I mean you did bring up ‘Splash’. ;-)

  86. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328136"][quote comment="328130"][quote comment="328128"]You are so lucky!! I want a baby born on Sept. 22!! If it’s a boy I am naming him Aaron or Jacob![/quote]

    Congrats, Miraks! You picked a couple of good weeks to take time to be with the baby – it was a bit heated around here in your absence! LOL.

    Tasha, as long as you don’t name him Oceanic, or LOST, or Darlton, I think we’re good! LOL.

    : ) P[/quote]

    ********************

    PJ, I’ll bet the top names in Kindergarten are Emma and Benjamin…
    quote]

    ______

    Jacob and Aaron are pretty popular names as well. One of them was at the top of the list for boys last year. Lost came out the year my younger son ws born. I should have named him Aaron but instead went with peyton cause that was the year for Peyton Manning. Now everyone says it’s a girls name…whatever.

  87. LostieLou says:

    New to post.
    PJ, I love the Splash and Days references. I’ve used those two many times as prime examples of pop culture influencing baby names. While we’re at it…there were no Jennifers before Love Story.

    So, are we going to see Desmond beat up Ben tonight? Will we find out if Penny is alive/dead? I’m on the dead boat.

  88. RGS says:

    [quote comment="328134"]So podcast is not spoiler?[/quote]

    Maybe because the podcasts happen after the show has aired, where D&C are attempting to lead viewers in their agenda.

  89. JMills says:

    I have seen speculations that Lost is really a board type game being played by characters either unseen or on the show (ex. Ben and Widmore). God please don’t let that be true. The thought of it is almost as unbearable as the whole thing being a dream that one of the characters is having where they wake up at the conclusion…

  90. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328145"]I have seen speculations that Lost is really a board type game being played by characters either unseen or on the show (ex. Ben and Widmore). God please don’t let that be true. The thought of it is almost as unbearable as the whole thing being a dream that one of the characters is having where they wake up at the conclusion…[/quote]
    ______
    Wasn’t there a movie called Island or something where people were characters in a video game? It might have been a dream but sounds like I watched it one lol.

  91. katesFriend says:

    Tasha, I think you may be thinking of a movie called the Island that was a place where they kept copies of people in case they needed transplants, babies, etc.

    Two of the characters escaped and realized what was going on, but up until then, everyone was led to believe there had been a major catastrophe and they were the only living survivors. Ring any bells?

  92. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328151"]Tasha, I think you may be thinking of a movie called the Island that was a place where they kept copies of people in case they needed transplants, babies, etc.

    Two of the characters escaped and realized what was going on, but up until then, everyone was led to believe there had been a major catastrophe and they were the only living survivors. Ring any bells?[/quote]

    Yeah, I saw that. I liked it, but it was trashed by the critics. It came out a few years ago (2005 I think) and was set in 2019. Strangely, cars were flying, which seems absurd when we can’t fix the traffic problems we have on the streets now! LOL.

    Other than the title, I am not sure it relates to LOST though.

    : ) P

  93. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328134"]So podcast is not spoiler?[/quote]
    No, unless they are pre-hashing the next episode.

  94. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328155"][quote comment="328134"]So podcast is not spoiler?[/quote]
    No, unless they are pre-hashing the next episode.[/quote]

    * * * * *

    Right. It is okay to talk about stuff that is in a podcast (which is tacitly considered canon). If D&C discuss the upcoming episode (pre-hashing), that is verboten. Though in fairness, I think they are very good about not REALLY telling us anything important in that pre-hash! LOL

    : ) P

  95. Adapa1 says:

    Got it!!!! Thanks everyone ;-)

  96. Heidi says:

    Thanks for the input. Yes, I will continue to watch, and make my husband watch our daughter when Lost is on. Very responsible!

    I just have such a hard time watching things when they aren’t at all believeable. Yes, its okay to suspend reality for a bit, but I feel Lost has been doing that since Season 3. And yes, somethings still aren’t answered like I thought they were going to be. Empty promises from the writers. But hey I am still an avid fan, so I guess they succeeded with me.

  97. Rumblestilskin says:

    I think that Ra had a good idea in Comment #21.

    I think that that’s the most likely explanation for the title of tonight’s show.

    But!!!! I couldn’t feel more unlike Heidi from Comment # 33.

  98. Rumblestilskin says:

    Sorry Heidi :(

  99. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328159"]I just have such a hard time watching things when they aren’t at all believeable. Yes, its okay to suspend reality for a bit, but I feel Lost has been doing that since Season 3. And yes, somethings still aren’t answered like I thought they were going to be. Empty promises from the writers. But hey I am still an avid fan, so I guess they succeeded with me.[/quote]

    So the smoke monster, polar bear in the jungle, woman stranded on an island for sixteen years, visions of a walking dead man, a mysterious underground hatch where you have to push a button every 108 minutes, an old drug plane carrying the body of the brother of one of the survivors, a slave ship in the middle of the jungle, and all the characters having connections with other characters prior to the crash *was* believable?

    LOL.

    : ) P

  100. Flyboy says:

    LIES, LIES, and more LIES…. from Ben

    I don’t buy the judged by the smoke monster stuff. I don’t buy anything from Ben’s mouth… I think it is more of the usual manipulation from Ben. Why fall for it again? Locke is smarter this time, I hope!

    We shall see…..

    Dead is Dead, could be something different then what we think it is right now… lets wait for the show to finish and then we can have a better idea of what they meant by this title. At this time everything we say about the title is pure speculation.

  101. Adapa1 says:

    “I’m SSSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOO jealous of you spoiled eastcoasters who all get to watch LOST in 30 minutes.”

    *slams fist on desk*
    “Bllllast”
    ;-)

    I’m still at work anyways. ;-)

  102. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328180"]“I’m SSSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOO jealous of you spoiled eastcoasters who all get to watch LOST in 30 minutes.”

    *slams fist on desk*
    “Bllllast”
    ;-)

    I’m still at work anyways. ;-)[/quote]
    ______________

    15 minutes for me!! Yay!!!1

  103. Adapa1 says:

    [quote comment="328181"][quote comment="328180"]“I’m SSSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOO jealous of you spoiled eastcoasters who all get to watch LOST in 30 minutes.”

    *slams fist on desk*
    “Bllllast”
    ;-)

    I’m still at work anyways. ;-)[/quote]
    ______________

    15 minutes for me!! Yay!!!1[/quote]

    Oh thanks tasha…… poor a bit more salt in that cut there. lmao

  104. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328179"] At this time everything we say about the title is pure speculation.[/quote]
    That’s part of the fun.

  105. Rita says:

    When Ben says he broke the rules, I think he must mean that he killed Penny! I guess we’ll see in a minute, but the only other time he mentions the rules was when he said that Widmore killed Alex, and that was breaking the rules. !!!!!

  106. Hammer says:

    Well now we know why Widmore called him ‘boy’.

    Ben broke the rules…which rules? Killing innocent people on the frieghter to get revenge on Keamy? Killing Penny to get revenge on Widmore?

  107. Tasha says:

    WOW! You sure Charles isn’t Desmond’s dad??? LOL JK

  108. Hammer says:

    Okay…finally have to admit that Danielle was NOT an Other.

  109. Rita says:

    OOOOHHH Hammer, “if you hear whispers, run the other way”!!!!

  110. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328187"]WOW! You sure Charles isn’t Desmond’s dad??? LOL JK[/quote]
    For Penny and Lil charlie’s sake, I hope not.

  111. Halliwax says:

    Was that Charles or Tarzan?

    And now we know there are horses on the island

  112. Rita says:

    [quote comment="328193"]Was that Charles or Tarzan?

    And now we know there are horses on the island[/quote]
    ____________________________
    He sure backed down fast at the mention of Jacob!

  113. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328194"][quote comment="328193"]Was that Charles or Tarzan?

    And now we know there are horses on the island[/quote]
    ____________________________
    He sure backed down fast at the mention of Jacob![/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Twice

  114. Hammer says:

    Sooo….Widmore ages on the island, but Alpert…not so much.

  115. Halliwax says:

    Is it just me or did Charles visually age two decades in a little over one decade there?

  116. Tasha says:

    Like I said last week…these people are crazy. If I were Sun I would be in the Dharma looney bin right about now. Yet they all just carry on….LOL….Crazy

    I said that about Des because of Charle’s hair. I had to look twice.

  117. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328196"]Sooo….Widmore ages on the island, but Alpert…not so much.[/quote]
    Has Ben been living with the Others this whole time, 11 or 12 years? Wasn’t he in a Dharma suit when he killed his dad?

  118. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328197"]Is it just me or did Charles visually age two decades in a little over one decade there?[/quote]
    _________

    I just said that to my husband LOL.

  119. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328197"]Is it just me or did Charles visually age two decades in a little over one decade there?[/quote]

    He did. But the casting for the young Widmore (that spoke with BenBoy) was AMAZING.

    Alan Dale took over in the camp when BenTeen brought AlexBaby to him.

    : ) P

  120. Stymie says:

    So is breaking the rules, killing someone that was born on island?

  121. lost4ever says:

    It appears no wheel turning for Widmore.

  122. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328202"]So is breaking the rules, killing someone that was born on island?[/quote]
    Sounds like one of them along with pro-creating with an outsider.

  123. kimm says:

    [quote comment="328193"]Was that Charles or Tarzan?

    And now we know there are horses on the island[/quote]
    ——————————————————
    We knew that from when Locke Kate and Sayid met Mikhail. There was a horse outside, the stirrups were a giveaway that another person was there with him.

    :]

  124. RGS says:

    I’m not so sure that killing someone born on the island is a rule breaker. According to Widmore, the island wanted Alex to die. When she dies as a teen that could be the inevitable that Widmore mentions.

  125. Halliwax says:

    Alpert is a cyborg

  126. Rita says:

    So “dead is dead” is just another Ben lie – thought it might be. Boy is this a new Locke or what??!! I like this Locke.

  127. PJSander says:

    Teen Charles was Tom Connelly.

    Young Adult Charles was David S. Lee.
    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1605085/

    “Old” Charles is Alan Dale.

    : ) P

  128. RGS says:

    Was that one of the French men seeing Widmore off?

  129. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328206"]I’m not so sure that killing someone born on the island is a rule breaker. According to Widmore, the island wanted Alex to die. When she dies as a teen that could be the inevitable that Widmore mentions.[/quote]
    Good point and I like the new Locke reminds me of the old Locke.

  130. Tasha says:

    So far Ben is a good boy. He didn’t KILL Alex’s mom which he was supposed to do OR the baby. Charles is a jerk telling Ben to kill that baby…tsk..tsk..tsk. Waiting to see when Ben gets EVIL…..

  131. Halliwax says:

    Desmond ripped him a new one

  132. Rita says:

    Wow, we all called it! Desmond beat the snot out of Ben when he “tried” to kill Penny! Lots of answers tonight!

  133. PJSander says:

    Desmond and Penny LIVE! Desmond was the one to kick Ben’s butt! Whoo hoo!

    : ) P

  134. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328196"]Sooo….Widmore ages on the island, but Alpert…not so much.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    Widmore aged because he left the island often.

  135. Hammer says:

    I’m starting to think that breaking the rules is ‘leaving the island’ more so than killing folks.

  136. Stymie says:

    I’m starting to think that breaking the rules is ‘leaving the island’ more so than killing folks.

    Doesn’t Alpert leave the island all the time?Same with Mr. Friendly?

  137. Stymie says:

    Looks like Jacob can appear in different form. IMO Jacob was appearing as Alex.

  138. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328220"]I’m starting to think that breaking the rules is ‘leaving the island’ more so than killing folks.

    Doesn’t Alpert leave the island all the time?Same with Mr. Friendly?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    For the island…not for himself. Widmore left for selfish reasons and is why he was banished and couldn’t come back.

  139. Tasha says:

    That’s 2 episodes in a row I cried:(

  140. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328221"]Looks like Jacob can appear in different form. IMO Jacob was appearing as Alex.[/quote]
    That was smokey. Not sure if Jacob and smokey are the same.

  141. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328221"]Looks like Jacob can appear in different form. IMO Jacob was appearing as Alex.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Could be, but the Smoke monster was Alex…’if you don’t, I’ll hunt you down and kill you’…Smokey’s warning in return for repenting he gets to live if he follows the rules.

  142. Rumblestilskin says:

    Good call LINS :)

  143. Stymie says:

    Hammer
    Comment 138, posted 0 minutes ago – Quote and reply
    Stymie wrote:

    I’m starting to think that breaking the rules is ‘leaving the island’ more so than killing folks.

    Doesn’t Alpert leave the island all the time?Same with Mr. Friendly?

    ++++++++++++++
    For the island…not for himself. Widmore left for selfish reasons and is why he was banished and couldn’t come back.
    +++++++++++++++
    Need to figure out how to copy comments, but good point Hammer.

  144. !!! says:

    So fucking good

  145. Rumblestilskin says:

    LINS- From Comment #5

  146. Tasha says:

    If anyone says that was a filler episode….I’m gonna SCREAM! What was up with the Ajira survivors? What lies in the shadow of the statue???

  147. Vaughn K says:

    I have been saying it along, Ben only does what is best for the island and all the people he has killed has been a sacrifice the island demanded. He COULD have killed Rousseau and didnt. He COULD have killed Penny and didnt, he lowered the gun because they had a baby. Both of these happened after he was supposed to lose his innocense. The only thing he ever did wrong, was let Alex die and he was forgiven. Oh yea, and I knew all along that Ben knew Locke had to die and that is why he killed him. I dont think he is lying about that and the roles of Locke and Ben are officially reversed.

  148. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328222"][quote comment="328220"]I’m starting to think that breaking the rules is ‘leaving the island’ more so than killing folks.

    Doesn’t Alpert leave the island all the time?Same with Mr. Friendly?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    For the island…not for himself. Widmore left for selfish reasons and is why he was banished and couldn’t come back.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    That and/or having a daughter with an outsider.

  149. Rita says:

    So, it seems that Ilana and co. knew to be on this plane as well, and knew about the statue and “what is in the shadow” of it. It would seem that the guns were put on the plane by them – it this Widmore’s war that is coming?

  150. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328234"]So, it seems that Ilana and co. knew to be on this plane as well, and knew about the statue and “what is in the shadow” of it. It would seem that the guns were put on the plane by them – it this Widmore’s war that is coming?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    That’s how I took it…war/incident is on tap.

  151. RGS says:

    [quote comment="328232"]I have been saying it along, Ben only does what is best for the island and all the people he has killed has been a sacrifice the island demanded. He COULD have killed Rousseau and didnt. He COULD have killed Penny and didnt, he lowered the gun because they had a baby. Both of these happened after he was supposed to lose his innocense. The only thing he ever did wrong, was let Alex die and he was forgiven. Oh yea, and I knew all along that Ben knew Locke had to die and that is why he killed him. I dont think he is lying about that and the roles of Locke and Ben are officially reversed.[/quote]

    I think it’s closer to neither Ben or Widmore is in “the right.” How would you explain Ben’s cold blooded shooting of Ceaser? How about the Smoke Monster just told him that he was planning to kill Locke again? Wasn’t Ben planting the seeds of doubt in Ceasar’s mind to begin with?

    At the same time Widmore claimed that Alex was to die earlier, Ben chose to ignore the island’s wishes, (for selfish reasons?). Team Widmore took a blow today, but I definitely can’t see how in the world Ben has been doing good work. He may have a chance to redeem himself, but something is telling me he will revert back to his selfish ways.

  152. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328228"]Hammer
    Comment 138, posted 0 minutes ago – Quote and reply
    Stymie wrote:

    I’m starting to think that breaking the rules is ‘leaving the island’ more so than killing folks.

    Doesn’t Alpert leave the island all the time?Same with Mr. Friendly?

    ++++++++++++++
    For the island…not for himself. Widmore left for selfish reasons and is why he was banished and couldn’t come back.
    +++++++++++++++
    Need to figure out how to copy comments, but good point Hammer.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++++
    Click the quote and reply part of the person’s post…then type your ++++++++++++ after it, then type your reply.

    (And this guy graduated ahead of me…. LOL.)

  153. Tasha says:

    So I am guessing the statue is going to have a dog head…like what was on the wall in the temple….IMO…and smokey in the pic can be represented as what? A shadow?

  154. RGS says:

    So Widmore and Ellie likely don’t have Daniel Faraday.

  155. Vaughn K says:

    The only way i can explain Caesar is that the island demeanded it but just because he is doing everything for the island DOES NOT mean that it is good because the island sometimes demands things that might look bad but HAVE to happen. You know what I am saying? Just a hypothesis.

  156. RGS says:

    [quote comment="328238"]So I am guessing the statue is going to have a dog head…like what was on the wall in the temple….IMO…and smokey in the pic can be represented as what? A shadow?[/quote]

    Yeah so whoever said the statue was Anubis? Is very likely right.

  157. Rita says:

    [quote comment="328238"]So I am guessing the statue is going to have a dog head…like what was on the wall in the temple….IMO…and smokey in the pic can be represented as what? A shadow?[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    Did the smokie picture in the temple remind you of John’s 4 year old drawing of smokie?

  158. LuliB says:

    What WAS in the box that Ilana and co were trying to move?!

  159. Laura says:

    [quote comment="328231"]If anyone says that was a filler episode….I’m gonna SCREAM! What was up with the Ajira survivors? What lies in the shadow of the statue???[/quote]
    ————————————
    Yes! WTF? Are all of the other folks on the plane, like, the descendants of the ancient people who lived on the island in the loooooong ago past? Or what? Who ARE these people?? WTF!!!!????

  160. Hammer says:

    Okay, does this sound right?

    Widmore was a double agent of sorts. He went off island often and that when he became a funder of DHARMA, had them come to the island while he was there…and gets banished after the purge? No?

  161. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328232"] He COULD have killed Penny and didnt, he the lowered the gun because they had a baby[/quote]
    Not killing Penny wasn’t really by choice although he did lower the gun. Who knows had Des not intervened if he still would have done it.

  162. RGS says:

    Richard Alpert is as mysterious as ever. Why lie about Ben? Not aging. It’s nuts.

  163. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="328234"]So, it seems that Ilana and co. knew to be on this plane as well, and knew about the statue and “what is in the shadow” of it. It would seem that the guns were put on the plane by them – it this Widmore’s war that is coming?[/quote]
    ____________________
    I think so.

  164. Stymie says:

    [quote comment="328237"][quote comment="328228"]Hammer
    Comment 138, posted 0 minutes ago – Quote and reply
    Stymie wrote:

    I’m starting to think that breaking the rules is ‘leaving the island’ more so than killing folks.

    Doesn’t Alpert leave the island all the time?Same with Mr. Friendly?

    ++++++++++++++
    For the island…not for himself. Widmore left for selfish reasons and is why he was banished and couldn’t come back.
    +++++++++++++++
    Need to figure out how to copy comments, but good point Hammer.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++++
    Click the quote and reply part of the person’s post…then type your ++++++++++++ after it, then type your reply.

    (And this guy graduated ahead of me…. LOL.)[/quote]

    I must have missed the day the taught us to read the directions. :)

  165. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328242"][quote comment="328238"]So I am guessing the statue is going to have a dog head…like what was on the wall in the temple….IMO…and smokey in the pic can be represented as what? A shadow?[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    Did the smokie picture in the temple remind you of John’s 4 year old drawing of smokie?[/quote]
    ____

    No lol looks more like a dragon made with a zig zagged line….

  166. Rita says:

    [quote comment="328243"]What WAS in the box that Ilana and co were trying to move?![/quote]
    lots and lots of guns!

  167. RGS says:

    [quote comment="328245"]Okay, does this sound right?

    Widmore was a double agent of sorts. He went off island often and that when he became a funder of DHARMA, had them come to the island while he was there…and gets banished after the purge? No?[/quote]

    I think that it is possible, but the reason why Widmore went off the island may have been to exploit some of his findings and mysterious properties about the island. How else could he have built an empire?

  168. sector7 says:

    $20 says Ceasar isn’t dead.

  169. Rita says:

    [quote comment="328254"]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n3eH1jI8AZ8/Sd1YgQw89DI/AAAAAAAAPp0/uEd7fm2S-bY/s1600-h/512+glyphs+image.jpg

    Screenshot is up for everyone LOL[/quote]
    ____________________________
    Thanks Tasha! It still REMINDS me of John’s little boy drawing though. Just the way it is layed out, something about it.

  170. RGS says:

    Will we find out how Des survives the gun shot? Wasn’t Ben trying to kill Desmond with that shot, before he attempts to kill Penny?

  171. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328249"]
    I must have missed the day the taught us to read the directions. :)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    You forgot your ++++++++++++…BTW it was the day I copied off your test. :)

  172. Laura says:

    Re: Ben’s judgment: I do NOT think Ben was forgiven – that’s not how I saw it at all. Sounded to me like Smokey was super pissed at Ben, but *needs* him still for some reason – Smokey will be keeping an eye on Ben (“I’ll hunt you down…”) from now on. I don’t think Ben’s judgment is over.

  173. RGS says:

    Did D&C lie about the Temple wall being where Smokey originates from, or were they being “technical” by claiming it originates from a little deeper inside and underneath the Temple wall?

  174. PJSander says:

    Maybe Caesar *IS* dead because he is the only one on the plane that WASN’T there for a reason?

    I just don’t want Frank to die!

    So that screencap shows Smokey and Anubis (from my POV). Thank you, Tasha! So are we going to argue the 4TS again? I hope not!

    : ) P

  175. Rita says:

    [quote comment="328258"]Re: Ben’s judgment: I do NOT think Ben was forgiven – that’s not how I saw it at all. Sounded to me like Smokey was super pissed at Ben, but *needs* him still for some reason – Smokey will be keeping an eye on Ben (“I’ll hunt you down…”) from now on. I don’t think Ben’s judgment is over.[/quote]
    __________________________________
    Could be right – but Ben sure looked scared! (where’s his plan NOW!)

  176. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328246"][quote comment="328232"] He COULD have killed Penny and didnt, he the lowered the gun because they had a baby[/quote]
    Not killing Penny wasn’t really by choice although he did lower the gun. Who knows had Des not intervened if he still would have done it.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    It was the same scene as when he was supposed to kill Danielle.

    Looks like Ben just might be a ‘good’ guy after all, just willing to do ALMOST anything for the island.

  177. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328255"][quote comment="328254"]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n3eH1jI8AZ8/Sd1YgQw89DI/AAAAAAAAPp0/uEd7fm2S-bY/s1600-h/512+glyphs+image.jpg

    Screenshot is up for everyone LOL[/quote]
    ____________________________
    Thanks Tasha! It still REMINDS me of John’s little boy drawing though. Just the way it is layed out, something about it.[/quote]

    True. That’s got to be Anubis. Thing is….I am not sure if that is what the statue with 4 toes will be, but I don’t know. I also found this really cool article since you seem interested….

    http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/shadow.htm

  178. Vaughn K says:

    Thank you Hammer finally not everyone is attacking Ben. Hopefully it doesnt turn out I am all wrong and he is evil lol.

  179. LINS says:

    Wow, Michael Emerson is one heck of an actor!!

  180. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328263"][quote comment="328246"][quote comment="328232"] He COULD have killed Penny and didnt, he the lowered the gun because they had a baby[/quote]
    Not killing Penny wasn’t really by choice although he did lower the gun. Who knows had Des not intervened if he still would have done it.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    It was the same scene as when he was supposed to kill Danielle.

    Looks like Ben just might be a ‘good’ guy after all, just willing to do ALMOST anything for the island.[/quote]
    ____

    I thought he seemed good. Looks to me like Charle’s would have had someone else kill that baby if it weren’t ben. Charles is a jerk.

  181. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="328265"]Thank you Hammer finally not everyone is attacking Ben. Hopefully it doesnt turn out I am all wrong and he is evil lol.[/quote]
    __________________________
    Does the word ‘genocide’ mean anything to you?

  182. Hammer says:

    I don’t remember which gods we talked about, but I am thinking that the one(s) that hold souls until ‘approved’ to pass is involved…..whisperers are waiting for help now that the statue is destroyed…that god isn’t around or is being held captive (Jacob) and the whisperers are stuck.

  183. Vaughn K says:

    [quote comment="328268"][quote comment="328265"]Thank you Hammer finally not everyone is attacking Ben. Hopefully it doesnt turn out I am all wrong and he is evil lol.[/quote]
    __________________________
    Does the word ‘genocide’ mean anything to you?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    If you recall Ben was killing his father at the time which is wrong obviously im not saying its not but he may have deserved it. Ben did not kill all those people…he didnt release the gas and kill them…and the island may have wanted that to happen…once again im not saying Ben is a saint all I am saying is that everything he has done has been in the best interest of the island

  184. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328268"]
    Does the word ‘genocide’ mean anything to you?[/quote]

    Ben killed his father. He may have ORCHESTRATED the purge, but I still don’t believe he did it alone. And I believe that he did it because he thought it was what was necessary for the island.

    If Widmore, during his off island pursuits, funded DHARMA to exploit the island, then it may have been necessary to execute the purge.

    I’ve always believed that this show is all about the shades of gray and not about the black and white, evil and good. The only black and white on this island are the stones Jack found on in the caves.

    : ) P

  185. LuliB says:

    [quote comment="328234"]So, it seems that Ilana and co. knew to be on this plane as well, and knew about the statue and “what is in the shadow” of it. It would seem that the guns were put on the plane by them – it this Widmore’s war that is coming?[/quote]

    not sure why, but I feel as though the temple “is in the shadow of the statue”. My guess is that Ilana and co. have overheard, or picked up on some part of the saga, but are not Widmore related. I think they are like pirates, in for the bounty. Selfish people out to exploit the island. Ah, maybe they are Widmore related… not sure what the end game here is in the Widmore / Ben struggle. Both seem to line up with what the island wants at times… the struggle is between them, but I’m not sure the island particularly cares and uses each of them as it wants. They both helped Locke fulfill his destiny in different ways…

  186. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328270"][quote comment="328268"][quote comment="328265"]Thank you Hammer finally not everyone is attacking Ben. Hopefully it doesnt turn out I am all wrong and he is evil lol.[/quote]
    __________________________
    Does the word ‘genocide’ mean anything to you?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    If you recall Ben was killing his father at the time which is wrong obviously im not saying its not but he may have deserved it. Ben did not kill all those people…he didnt release the gas and kill them…and the island may have wanted that to happen…once again im not saying Ben is a saint all I am saying is that everything he has done has been in the best interest of the island[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    And now Smokey has confirmed his worst fear…that Locke is his replacement. But he will still do whatever the island wants….I assume the island is ‘good’.

  187. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328258"]Re: Ben’s judgment: I do NOT think Ben was forgiven – that’s not how I saw it at all. Sounded to me like Smokey was super pissed at Ben, but *needs* him still for some reason – Smokey will be keeping an eye on Ben (“I’ll hunt you down…”) from now on. I don’t think Ben’s judgment is over.[/quote]
    Just like Eko.

  188. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="328270"][quote comment="328268"][quote comment="328265"]Thank you Hammer finally not everyone is attacking Ben. Hopefully it doesnt turn out I am all wrong and he is evil lol.[/quote]
    __________________________
    Does the word ‘genocide’ mean anything to you?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    If you recall Ben was killing his father at the time which is wrong obviously im not saying its not but he may have deserved it. Ben did not kill all those people…he didnt release the gas and kill them…and the island may have wanted that to happen…once again im not saying Ben is a saint all I am saying is that everything he has done has been in the best interest of the island[/quote]
    ______________________________
    That’s like saying Hitler didn’t actually kill anyone.

  189. Hammer says:

    Darn…now that Caeser(the dog whisperer)is dead, we will never hear what Vincent has to say. LOL

  190. LINS says:

    [quote comment="328233"][quote comment="328222"][quote comment="328220"]I’m starting to think that breaking the rules is ‘leaving the island’ more so than killing folks.

    Doesn’t Alpert leave the island all the time?Same with Mr. Friendly?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    For the island…not for himself. Widmore left for selfish reasons and is why he was banished and couldn’t come back.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    That and/or having a daughter with an outsider.[/quote]

    *****************
    I think it all has to do with the motives, if he was leaving the island because he wanted to, not because he had to, that would be different. I think Alpert/Ethan/Tom all left the island to do island business, but perhaps Widmore had different, more selfish motives…

    I was SOOOO happy to see Des beat the crap out of Ben though, I was so worried Penny was going to die…oh my goodness!

    I like the new Locke, and it was nice to see young Ethan…but I can’t believe Danielle just sat there and let him take her baby, I’m sure I’ll get blasted for this, but gun or no gun, threats or no threats, I would have never let anyone take my baby! Maybe she was sick/crazy?

    Where do you think Ellie was tonight? Obviously Widmore was in charge, but what happened to Ellie? Seems like if she was supposed to still be there and be in charge with him, they would have shown her…perhaps she had already left the island with a little Faraday?

  191. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328275"][quote comment="328270"][quote comment="328268"][quote comment="328265"]Thank you Hammer finally not everyone is attacking Ben. Hopefully it doesnt turn out I am all wrong and he is evil lol.[/quote]
    __________________________
    Does the word ‘genocide’ mean anything to you?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    If you recall Ben was killing his father at the time which is wrong obviously im not saying its not but he may have deserved it. Ben did not kill all those people…he didnt release the gas and kill them…and the island may have wanted that to happen…once again im not saying Ben is a saint all I am saying is that everything he has done has been in the best interest of the island[/quote]
    ______________________________
    That’s like saying Hitler didn’t actually kill anyone.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    Just saying that IF Widmore has evil intentions…then the purge was NEEDED to stop the evil machine…thereby making Ben ‘good’.

  192. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328267"]
    I thought he seemed good. Looks to me like Charle’s would have had someone else kill that baby if it weren’t ben.
    [/quote]
    That reminded me of the time Ben wanted Locke to kill his father, Anthony Cooper.:)

  193. Halliwax says:

    [quote comment="328264"][quote comment="328255"][quote comment="328254"]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n3eH1jI8AZ8/Sd1YgQw89DI/AAAAAAAAPp0/uEd7fm2S-bY/s1600-h/512+glyphs+image.jpg

    Screenshot is up for everyone LOL[/quote]
    ____________________________
    Thanks Tasha! It still REMINDS me of John’s little boy drawing though. Just the way it is layed out, something about it.[/quote]

    True. That’s got to be Anubis. Thing is….I am not sure if that is what the statue with 4 toes will be, but I don’t know. I also found this really cool article since you seem interested….

    http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/shadow.htm%5B/quote%5D

    ++++++++++++++++++

    Too lazy to write a long explanation which has already been given in the LaFleur thread.. but I’ll go on record saying the statue is not Anubis and it’s someone on the show (male character).. if I’m wrong you can have me ‘judged’

  194. katesFriend says:

    I guess what is good or evil regarding the island is all a matter of perspective.

    One could look at Dharma/Widmore’s funding of Dharma as the “right” thing to do. If the island is so magnificent, wouldn’t the “right” thing be to use the island to help humanity? And keeping the island for only a small number of select few the “wrong” thing to do?

    I’m with PJ, no black/white, only gray.

  195. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328277"]

    Where do you think Ellie was tonight? Obviously Widmore was in charge, but what happened to Ellie? Seems like if she was supposed to still be there and be in charge with him, they would have shown her…perhaps she had already left the island with a little Faraday?[/quote]

    Helping Widmore build the Lamp Post?

  196. LuliB says:

    [quote comment="328279"][quote comment="328267"]
    I thought he seemed good. Looks to me like Charle’s would have had someone else kill that baby if it weren’t ben.
    [/quote]
    That reminded me of the time Ben wanted Locke to kill his father, Anthony Cooper.:)[/quote]

    ++++++++++++++
    yeah! In that case the island wanted him dead, and Locke found a way, but didn’t do it himself. With the baby, if the island really wanted baby Alex dead, when Ben gave the baby to Charles and said, here, YOU do it, then it could’ve been done. Ben did give over the power to get the deed done. So I read that at that time, the island didn’t want baby Alex dead.

  197. RGS says:

    Another thing with Ben is that he’s been flying by the seat of his pants, for quite awhile now. He seems to have clearly fallen out of favor with the island, since before he took it upon himself to move the island. So any actions he’s been doing, do not appear to be under the direction of the island, or Jacob, just what he thinks he “should” be doing.

    So he’s been on a murdering rampage, even planning to try to kill John again, according to the Island spokesperson, Alex. I don’t see how folks can support the notion that the things he is doing are for the sake of the island.

    Michael Emerson is a helluva actor. It’s crazy how viewing his scenes there can be so many interpretations of what he is saying. I guess if you believe he is “good” when you hear the stuff he says, you think it’s lies for the greater good. Then on the other hand folks hear the lies and we’re like, dude stop it!

    Widmore wanting Rousseau and Alex killed under the direction of island=bad. Ben wanting so and so to die under the direction of the island=good.

    Too funny.

  198. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328019"][quote comment="328017"]‘Dead is Dead’. But John is not dead. He was dead. So dead is not dead, right. Why should whatever happened, happened be correct, but not dead is dead?

    If whatever happened, happened, then the characters in ’77 have no free will, and are merely filling in the time that already happened. That’s not very exciting to me.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Agreed.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    Looking good Sector….liking the odds that WHH and D is D policies are meant to be broken.

  199. lost4ever says:

    Alpert and Ben can apparently speak to Jacob, can Widmore, I missed that part.

  200. LINS says:

    [quote comment="328282"][quote comment="328277"]

    Where do you think Ellie was tonight? Obviously Widmore was in charge, but what happened to Ellie? Seems like if she was supposed to still be there and be in charge with him, they would have shown her…perhaps she had already left the island with a little Faraday?[/quote]

    Helping Widmore build the Lamp Post?[/quote]

    ******************
    oooh, good point, forgot about that one!

  201. DocH says:

    So Ilana had some bubbas, and the bubbas had some guns, and they all look like they were on an intended mission as part of the anticipated Ajira crash. Whose mission? Hawking, Widmore, Paik? Someone else? Oh yeah, Ilana had Sayid. Maybe Sayid wasn’t headed for Guam. Maybe she had Sayid because she planned to recruit him “in-place” – as a warrior and island guide – to help her and the bubba’s accomplish their mission.

  202. Tasha says:

    Ok. Not to bring up the ancient stuff again but I am OBSESSED and I don’t care….

    It looked to me like Ben seemed a little surprised when he fell down in there. He had never seen this room before. Also, maybe it’s obvious to everyone and I am the one thinking about this, but that seemed more like a tomb…not a temple. So in my opinion, behind that wall he was looking at is the tomb of someone, the vent Smokey came out was from behind there. Also, I think now smokey is whoever is in that tomb’s SHADOW.

    Only part I am confused on is the water that Ben let out the drain at the passageway at his house…hmmmm. Off to think some more!

  203. Hammer says:

    Favorite line: When Ben said whatever is about to come out of the jungle he can’t control…and Locke popped out….and he was right without knowing it…he can no longer control Locke…per Smokey(Alex). LOL.

  204. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328289"]
    Only part I am confused on is the water that Ben let out the drain at the passageway at his house…hmmmm. Off to think some more![/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Yeah, I didn’t get the toiler flush either…I undertand why Smokey didn’t come out…it was to show that Ben is no longer in charge of anything and Locke is.

  205. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328288"]So Ilana had some bubbas, and the bubbas had some guns, and they all look like they were on an intended mission as part of the anticipated Ajira crash. Whose mission? Hawking, Widmore, Paik? Someone else? Oh yeah, Ilana had Sayid. Maybe Sayid wasn’t headed for Guam. Maybe she had Sayid because she planned to recruit him “in-place” – as a warrior and island guide – to help her and the bubba’s accomplish their mission.[/quote]
    Maybe once one of them flashes to the others time.

  206. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328280"]Too lazy to write a long explanation which has already been given in the LaFleur thread.. but I’ll go on record saying the statue is not Anubis and it’s someone on the show (male character).. if I’m wrong you can have me ‘judged’[/quote]

    Why can’t it be BOTH?

    : ) P

  207. Hammer says:

    Okay, so it seems that we know that Ben Temple experience didn’t make him forget his childhood…just the whole incident. He doesn’t remember the losties being DHARMA per his reaction to the photo (which makes me think NOW is the first time they were in the 70). It also seems that ‘loss of innocence’ hasn’t made him omnicient either.

    Still waiting for a good definition of loss of innocence.

  208. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328295"][quote comment="328280"]Too lazy to write a long explanation which has already been given in the LaFleur thread.. but I’ll go on record saying the statue is not Anubis and it’s someone on the show (male character).. if I’m wrong you can have me ‘judged’[/quote]

    Why can’t it be BOTH?

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Yes….like Jacob?

  209. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328145"]I have seen speculations that Lost is really a board type game being played by characters either unseen or on the show (ex. Ben and Widmore). God please don’t let that be true. The thought of it is almost as unbearable as the whole thing being a dream that one of the characters is having where they wake up at the conclusion…[/quote]
    Interesting that you mention that, and then in Ben’s old house we see the game Risk on a table. Risk, the battle for World Domination. Just like Ben and Widmore are battling for Island Domination.

  210. Hammer says:

    Bedtime for Bonzo.

    I think Smokey judged Ben the same as he judged Eko. Only Eko was killed because he did not repent, but said he did what he had to do to survive. See below.

    Ben showed he repented, was spared, but on condition.

    I believe Smokey manifests himself to someone that is dear to the judged person.

    EKO: I ask for no forgiveness, Father. For I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive.

    [Yemi lets his hand fall from the cross and Eko lowers it.]

    EKO: A small boy once asked me if I was a bad man. If I could answer him now, I would tell him that… when I was a young boy, I killed a man to save my brother’s life. I am not sorry for this. I am proud of this!

    [Eko drops to his knees in front of Yemi and spreads his arms out.]

    EKO: I did not ask for the life that I was given. But it was given, nonetheless. And with it… I did my best.

    [Yemi stares down into Eko's eyes. He looks angry.]

    YEMI: [Almost in disgust] You speak to me as if I were your brother.

    [Eko cringes back from him, scared and angry.]

    EKO: Who are you?

  211. DocH says:

    [quote comment="328291"]
    Yeah, I didn’t get the toiler flush either…[/quote]
    Just rechecked. Northern hemisphere – the toilet flush is counterclock. Clockwise in the Southern. The Smokey flush was straight down. there was a SLIGHT clockwise at the very end… but that looked like the crag in the side of the well made a slight influence. Speaking of well… we say alot of ‘the well’ earlier this season. Maybe that was smokey juice too. Reason to fill it in?

  212. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328190"]Okay…finally have to admit that Danielle was NOT an Other.[/quote]
    LOL after that scene I said to myself, I hope this will finally convince Hammer that Rousseau was not in cahoots with Ben!

  213. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328256"]Will we find out how Des survives the gun shot? Wasn’t Ben trying to kill Desmond with that shot, before he attempts to kill Penny?[/quote]
    My guess is a can of peas or something in the grocery bag blocked the bullet.

  214. Waththeheck says:

    About this box full of guns theory : don’t you think guns are now forbidden in planes ???

  215. Halliwax says:

    [quote comment="328297"][quote comment="328295"][quote comment="328280"]Too lazy to write a long explanation which has already been given in the LaFleur thread.. but I’ll go on record saying the statue is not Anubis and it’s someone on the show (male character).. if I’m wrong you can have me ‘judged’[/quote]

    Why can’t it be BOTH?

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Yes….like Jacob?[/quote]

    ++++++++++++++

    Because if a human had a face and snout of a dog.. it would no longer look human lol.. so it can’t be both unless Jacob literally is a dog/human which would be too wacky even for Lost standards.. and the 4TS is clearly not Anubis based on the lengthy locks of hair extending down its upper back.. Anubis is only represented with a dog head in reliefs and sculptures.. never with extensions of human hair

    personally i’m leaning towards Daniel Faraday being the 4TS after having travelled through time again

  216. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328302"][quote comment="328190"]Okay…finally have to admit that Danielle was NOT an Other.[/quote]
    LOL after that scene I said to myself, I hope this will finally convince Hammer that Rousseau was not in cahoots with Ben![/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    I know, I know…but I don’t hide. I was plain old wrong. LOL.

    They exlpained it well IMO too. Run if you hear whispers….that warning was taken seriously by Danielle and is how she survived.

  217. Paul says:

    What exactly did Alex say to ben in the temple sub floor. It was something like.

    “I know you are planning to kill _______” It sounded like John but then something after that. Like JohnK or JohnKing or something. Any illumination on this would be helpful.

  218. Vaughn K says:

    [quote comment="328303"][quote comment="328256"]Will we find out how Des survives the gun shot? Wasn’t Ben trying to kill Desmond with that shot, before he attempts to kill Penny?[/quote]
    My guess is a can of peas or something in the grocery bag blocked the bullet.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    the bullet to me kinda looked like it hit him in the shoulder…i dont think ben intended to kill desmond since he really didnt do anything to ben and ben didnt want to kill him so he just needed to stop him while he offed penny

  219. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328299"]
    Interesting that you mention that, and then in Ben’s old house we see the game Risk on a table. Risk, the battle for World Domination. Just like Ben and Widmore are battling for Island Domination.[/quote]

    I think Risk is what Hurley and Sawyer were playing just before Keamy et al showed up. I sort of remember Hurley holding Aaron on his knee while he played?

    : ) P

  220. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328305"][quote comment="328297"][quote comment="328295"][quote comment="328280"]Too lazy to write a long explanation which has already been given in the LaFleur thread.. but I’ll go on record saying the statue is not Anubis and it’s someone on the show (male character).. if I’m wrong you can have me ‘judged’[/quote]

    Why can’t it be BOTH?

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Yes….like Jacob?[/quote]

    ++++++++++++++

    Because if a human had a face and snout of a dog.. it would no longer look human lol.. so it can’t be both unless Jacob literally is a dog/human which would be too wacky even for Lost standards.. and the 4TS is clearly not Anubis based on the lengthy locks of hair extending down its upper back.. Anubis is only represented with a dog head in reliefs and sculptures.. never with extensions of human hair

    personally i’m leaning towards Daniel Faraday being the 4TS after having travelled through time again[/quote]
    +++++++++++++=
    I’ve said before that the first time we saw Jacob…his hair was styled to look like dog ears hanging down….crazy I know…just saying.

    Okay off to bed.

  221. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328300"]Bedtime for Bonzo.

    I think Smokey judged Ben the same as he judged Eko. Only Eko was killed because he did not repent, but said he did what he had to do to survive. See below.

    Ben showed he repented, was spared, but on condition.

    I believe Smokey manifests himself to someone that is dear to the judged person.

    EKO: I ask for no forgiveness, Father. For I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive.

    [Yemi lets his hand fall from the cross and Eko lowers it.]

    EKO: A small boy once asked me if I was a bad man. If I could answer him now, I would tell him that… when I was a young boy, I killed a man to save my brother’s life. I am not sorry for this. I am proud of this!

    [Eko drops to his knees in front of Yemi and spreads his arms out.]

    EKO: I did not ask for the life that I was given. But it was given, nonetheless. And with it… I did my best.

    [Yemi stares down into Eko's eyes. He looks angry.]

    YEMI: [Almost in disgust] You speak to me as if I were your brother.

    [Eko cringes back from him, scared and angry.]

    EKO: Who are you?[/quote]
    That was their second meeting. The first time Eko met smokey he saw the same thing Ben saw, certain time periods during his life, but I concur, Eko was not willing the second time they met, or he failed his mission and let the hatch explode. Maybe like what will happen to Ben if he tries to kill Locke.

  222. Amber says:

    Wow so that was actually pretty darn sad when ben was standing there with smokey surronding him.I wont lie it made me cry:( Then again I am on team Ben being the good guy. I mean of course in the real world Ben would be a bad guy and the stuff he is doing would be horrible! But this is a show about a magiacal island lol so he may just being doing the right thing for the island and if the island is good and he is doing the work for it then i guess he’s a good guy. I dont think Ben would have shot Penny even if Des hadnt stopped him. He obviously has a soft spot for the kids. Ok on to the next thing what the heck is with the other people from flight 316! You think maybe Ben knew that ceaser was working for widmore or whoever?

  223. Vaughn K says:

    [quote comment="328309"][quote comment="328299"]
    Interesting that you mention that, and then in Ben’s old house we see the game Risk on a table. Risk, the battle for World Domination. Just like Ben and Widmore are battling for Island Domination.[/quote]

    I think Risk is what Hurley and Sawyer were playing just before Keamy et al showed up. I sort of remember Hurley holding Aaron on his knee while he played?

    : ) P[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    yea they were playing right before locke and ben walked in so good detail to leave it all how it was from the producers lol nothing more…i dont think?

  224. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328285"][quote comment="328019"][quote comment="328017"]‘Dead is Dead’. But John is not dead. He was dead. So dead is not dead, right. Why should whatever happened, happened be correct, but not dead is dead?

    If whatever happened, happened, then the characters in ’77 have no free will, and are merely filling in the time that already happened. That’s not very exciting to me.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Agreed.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    Looking good Sector….liking the odds that WHH and D is D policies are meant to be broken.[/quote]
    ___________________________
    Disagreed.

    The Dead is Dead quote came from Ben, who has been known to lie. How many lies did he tell tonight? He said “dead is dead” right after he told Sun something like he has no idea how Locke came back to life, and then said something about being afraid of Locke. Similar to the speech he gave Caesar about Locke being crazy and dangerous.

    So I don’t think you can compare that to the WHH explanation we’ve been given over and over by Faraday, and then Miles, who presumably is repeating what Faraday told him.

  225. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328309"][quote comment="328299"]
    Interesting that you mention that, and then in Ben’s old house we see the game Risk on a table. Risk, the battle for World Domination. Just like Ben and Widmore are battling for Island Domination.[/quote]

    I think Risk is what Hurley and Sawyer were playing just before Keamy et al showed up. I sort of remember Hurley holding Aaron on his knee while he played?

    : ) P[/quote]
    __________________
    Ah, must be, because that was the last time anyone was living in that house.

  226. Waththeheck says:

    If you can’t change the past, do you think Charlie, who drown, is Desmond and Penny’s son ? That could explain why Des knew so precisely about Charlie’s different way to die ? Like psychic thing between generation… !

  227. Vaughn K says:

    Ben didnt necessarily lie about not knowing how locke came back to life he just said he was told it would happen he wasnt told how

  228. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328306"][quote comment="328302"][quote comment="328190"]Okay…finally have to admit that Danielle was NOT an Other.[/quote]
    LOL after that scene I said to myself, I hope this will finally convince Hammer that Rousseau was not in cahoots with Ben![/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    I know, I know…but I don’t hide. I was plain old wrong. LOL.

    They exlpained it well IMO too. Run if you hear whispers….that warning was taken seriously by Danielle and is how she survived.[/quote]
    _________________________
    You’re right, and I didn’t expect you to hide. I know you’ll admit when you’re, um, not exactly correct. (contrary to what some may think about you)

  229. Paul says:

    Does anyone have the transcript or know what Alex told Ben in the temple’s basement? That is the only thing bugging me about the episode last night.

  230. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328319"]Does anyone have the transcript or know what Alex told Ben in the temple’s basement? That is the only thing bugging me about the episode last night.[/quote]
    I was going to respond to your earlier post – I just went back to rewatch that scene. She said “I know you’re planning to kill John again”

  231. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328317"]Ben didnt necessarily lie about not knowing how locke came back to life he just said he was told it would happen he wasnt told how[/quote]
    OK I rewatched that scene too. Sun said to Ben, “You knew this would happen?” (about Locke coming back to life). Ben replied “I had no idea it would happen”. This contradicts what he said in the opening scene when he sees Locke for the first time, when he said “I imagined this could happen”.

  232. secretgarden says:

    Not that it has to do with the episode at all tonight, but I swear Locke looks l like he had surgery or some kind of face lift. He looks younger and more full.

    ;P

  233. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328300"]Bedtime for Bonzo.

    I think Smokey judged Ben the same as he judged Eko. Only Eko was killed because he did not repent, but said he did what he had to do to survive. See below.

    Ben showed he repented, was spared, but on condition.

    I believe Smokey manifests himself to someone that is dear to the judged person.

    [/quote]
    Good points – I agree with all this.

  234. Paul says:

    [quote comment="328320"][quote comment="328319"]Does anyone have the transcript or know what Alex told Ben in the temple’s basement? That is the only thing bugging me about the episode last night.[/quote]
    I was going to respond to your earlier post – I just went back to rewatch that scene. She said “I know you’re planning to kill John again”[/quote]
    Thanks, my girlfriend and I watched the episode and the speakers on her tv aren’t the clearest. Great episode!

  235. Toeknee says:

    In the scene where Ben brings baby Alex back to the Others’ camp, I thought I saw Ms. Klugh in the background.

  236. Waththeheck says:

    [quote comment="328322"]Not that it has to do with the episode at all tonight, but I swear Locke looks l like he had surgery or some kind of face lift. He looks younger and more full.

    ;P[/quote]

    I guess that’s what happens when you’re embalmed.

  237. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328314"]

    So I don’t think you can compare that to the WHH explanation we’ve been given over and over [/quote]
    Has he really given it that much? I remember him saying it after Charlotte had just died. He also told the TT losties something to that effect before he decided to knock on the hatch door. But it wasn’t clear what he really meant, at least to me and Carlton. That’s the impression I got from their latest podcast.

  238. Waththeheck says:

    I’m still hooked to what Ilana said when Lapitus came back about that shadow of the statue.
    Can it be just a code, or a more profound hidden meaning ? She might also have found some maps and statue drawings in ex-Ben’s office… ?

  239. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328326"]In the scene where Ben brings baby Alex back to the Others’ camp, I thought I saw Ms. Klugh in the background.[/quote]
    I thought I saw her too.

  240. Shadow says:

    [quote comment="328330"][quote comment="328326"]In the scene where Ben brings baby Alex back to the Others’ camp, I thought I saw Ms. Klugh in the background.[/quote]
    I thought I saw her too.[/quote]

    OK, refresh my memory. Who’s Ms. Klugh? I live on west coast and just finished watching. What an awesome episode!

  241. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328328"][quote comment="328314"]

    So I don’t think you can compare that to the WHH explanation we’ve been given over and over [/quote]
    Has he really given it that much? I remember him saying it after Charlotte had just died. He also told the TT losties something to that effect before he decided to knock on the hatch door. But it wasn’t clear what he really meant, at least to me and Carlton. That’s the impression I got from their latest podcast.[/quote]
    ________________________
    Well, in addition to the two scenes you mention, there was the one scene where Faraday compared time to a street. Then, in Namaste, Hurley suggests to Sawyer that they warn the DI folks about the upcoming purge, and Sawyer mentions Faraday’s theories about what you can and can’t do. And then there was Miles’ & Hurley’s conversation last week. So it has been mentioned several times.

    I still haven’t listened to that podcast, but based on what I’ve heard in past podcasts, and based on what PJ said in comment #9, I don’t know how literally you can take the things D&C say. So if Carlton says he’s confused, he may just be playing a part, in order to get Damon to cough up some answers, if that makes sense.

  242. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328251"][quote comment="328243"]What WAS in the box that Ilana and co were trying to move?![/quote]
    lots and lots of guns![/quote]
    _______________________________
    And so this apparently answers the question from earlier this season – who was in the boat shooting at Sawyer, Juliet, etc while they were in a boat and flashing from time to time.

  243. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328333"][quote comment="328328"][quote comment="328314"]

    So I don’t think you can compare that to the WHH explanation we’ve been given over and over [/quote]
    Has he really given it that much? I remember him saying it after Charlotte had just died. He also told the TT losties something to that effect before he decided to knock on the hatch door. But it wasn’t clear what he really meant, at least to me and Carlton. That’s the impression I got from their latest podcast.[/quote]
    ________________________
    Well, in addition to the two scenes you mention, there was the one scene where Faraday compared time to a street. Then, in Namaste, Hurley suggests to Sawyer that they warn the DI folks about the upcoming purge, and Sawyer mentions Faraday’s theories about what you can and can’t do. And then there was Miles’ & Hurley’s conversation last week. So it has been mentioned several times.

    I still haven’t listened to that podcast, but based on what I’ve heard in past podcasts, and based on what PJ said in comment #9, I don’t know how literally you can take the things D&C say. So if Carlton says he’s confused, he may just be playing a part, in order to get Damon to cough up some answers, if that makes sense.[/quote]
    TY for refreshing my memory. See I think the scene where Sawyer mentions there are Faraday’s theories about things we can and can’t do, contradict the theory WHH. Why would it matter what they do IF WHH?

  244. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328332"][quote comment="328330"][quote comment="328326"]In the scene where Ben brings baby Alex back to the Others’ camp, I thought I saw Ms. Klugh in the background.[/quote]
    I thought I saw her too.[/quote]

    OK, refresh my memory. Who’s Ms. Klugh? I live on west coast and just finished watching. What an awesome episode![/quote]
    +++++++++++
    Here you go. Hope this helps.

    http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Klugh

  245. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328334"][quote comment="328251"][quote comment="328243"]What WAS in the box that Ilana and co were trying to move?![/quote]
    lots and lots of guns![/quote]
    _______________________________
    And so this apparently answers the question from earlier this season – who was in the boat shooting at Sawyer, Juliet, etc while they were in a boat and flashing from time to time.[/quote]
    Right. Lapidus brought back the second boat to Hydra Island. Those 2 boats need to get back to The Big Island so the TT LOSTies can steal one and get shot at and Juliet in turn will injure someone chasing them.

  246. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328335"]
    TY for refreshing my memory. See I think the scene where Sawyer mentions there are Faraday’s theories about things we can and can’t do, contradict the theory WHH. Why would it matter what they do IF WHH?[/quote]
    This relates to the “free will” discussion earlier on this thread. I agree with the points RGS (#11), Jay (#15), and Rita (#16 and #18) made. The characters don’t know what their future holds, so, for example, it’s not like Sawyer knows that on a certain date in 1977 he woke up and had waffles for breakfast, so he just goes ahead and makes waffles on that day because he knows that’s what is supposed to happen. They are experiencing these years for the first time. They are still free to make decisions, and they do not know what the outcome of those decisions will be.

  247. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328337"][quote comment="328334"][quote comment="328251"][quote comment="328243"]What WAS in the box that Ilana and co were trying to move?![/quote]
    lots and lots of guns![/quote]
    _______________________________
    And so this apparently answers the question from earlier this season – who was in the boat shooting at Sawyer, Juliet, etc while they were in a boat and flashing from time to time.[/quote]
    Right. Lapidus brought back the second boat to Hydra Island.

    Those 2 boats need to get back to The Big Island so the TT LOSTies can steal one and get shot at and Juliet in turn will injure someone chasing them.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Oops, my mistake. They only need one boat to return because there is already one on the big island.

  248. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328337"][quote comment="328334"][quote comment="328251"][quote comment="328243"]What WAS in the box that Ilana and co were trying to move?![/quote]
    lots and lots of guns![/quote]
    _______________________________
    And so this apparently answers the question from earlier this season – who was in the boat shooting at Sawyer, Juliet, etc while they were in a boat and flashing from time to time.[/quote]
    Right. Lapidus brought back the second boat to Hydra Island.

    Those 2 boats need to get back to The Big Island so the TT LOSTies can steal one and get shot at and Juliet in turn will injure someone chasing them.[/quote]
    ____________________________
    Hey! No spoilers!! :)

    I can imagine the comments here after that episode airs – “we already knew that” “this was just a filler episode” etc etc

  249. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328338"][quote comment="328335"]
    TY for refreshing my memory. See I think the scene where Sawyer mentions there are Faraday’s theories about things we can and can’t do, contradict the theory WHH. Why would it matter what they do IF WHH?[/quote]
    This relates to the “free will” discussion earlier on this thread. I agree with the points RGS (#11), Jay (#15), and Rita (#16 and #18) made. The characters don’t know what their future holds, so, for example, it’s not like Sawyer knows that on a certain date in 1977 he woke up and had waffles for breakfast, so he just goes ahead and makes waffles on that day because he knows that’s what is supposed to happen. They are experiencing these years for the first time. They are still free to make decisions, and they do not know what the outcome of those decisions will be.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Gotcha there, but why does Daniel tell them there are limitations to their free will? What they can and can’t do? Maybe the next “filler” episode will answer that.:)

  250. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="328269"]I don’t remember which gods we talked about, but I am thinking that the one(s) that hold souls until ‘approved’ to pass is involved…..whisperers are waiting for help now that the statue is destroyed…that god isn’t around or is being held captive (Jacob) and the whisperers are stuck.[/quote]
    **********************
    I agree with this and said something similar earlier or on last weeks thread…I also really think this is going to be the importance of Miles…to comunicate with the Whisperers!
    -miss

  251. Bobola says:

    Finally; a great episode after a pretty bad one.

    I was on the edge of my seat tonight. Nice to get some questions answered instead of Hurley asking questions like a 9 year old. All Hurley really cares about is his comfort food anyway. Writers…Please, kill him off soon.

    I had to laugh too when that jerk on the beach got it from the gun Ben took from him. Checkmate.

    Nice to have a new female antagonist…wow, she looks pretty when she’s angry. Nice way to set up the next drama. Poor Pilot dude…really the airline food wasn’t that bad, neh?

    Yes, I do think these new Kayak Krazies are sent from either Widmore or Sun’s evil father. Maybe both.
    Widmore had a nice horse there; I didn’t even recognize him until he said his name to Ben in the tent.
    But new question; after getting banished how did he gather more money than God…did he dod a Madoff scam?

    I hope John is gonna stay in his position now as Island Guru and not get knocked back down again. But I’m hoping for a little pay back to his kidney thieving Father someday.

    So, Sayid is on the run with a gun and Sawyer is caught in the middle. Doc has his nuts cut off now, so to speak. Jin can order off the English menu now but only got a knuckle sandwich. Freckles free from shackles but forlorn and Smokey tersely shows some mercy.

    But how how how does Sun get back in time to see her hubby? Does she have to walk like an Egyptian?

    We’ve had one resurrection now but will there be more? I’d vote for a return of Patchy or that bad ass Mercenary…but the Lady who smacked the Pliot down may prove to be as nasty as any. Deadlier than the Male? (to recoin a phrase)

  252. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="328343"][quote comment="328269"]I don’t remember which gods we talked about, but I am thinking that the one(s) that hold souls until ‘approved’ to pass is involved…..whisperers are waiting for help now that the statue is destroyed…that god isn’t around or is being held captive (Jacob) and the whisperers are stuck.[/quote]
    **********************
    I agree with this and said something similar earlier or on last weeks thread…I also really think this is going to be the importance of Miles…to comunicate with the Whisperers!
    -miss[/quote]
    **************
    need to clarify…I didn’t say that i thought the statue was a god that holds the souls until approved to pass (i was actually in the camp that thought it might be related to fertiltiy and once it was destroyed they lost the ability to have children…and really taking a leap said wouldn’t it be funny if it was Juliette as she restored the ability to have kids) but i do agree that the souls are stuck and i think they are the whisperers!
    *********
    -Miss

  253. Miss lost says:

    My daughter has always wanted to watch lost and in the beginning I didn’t think she was old enough. Now she is 14 and her and I have watched a few past seasons together…two days ago we watched the season 3 episode where Eko was killed by smokey…after it was over my daughter said, “I think the smoke is like your judgement…you are shown some thing from your life and have to decide if you made the right decisions…” she had some other thoughts, but i was impressed with her reactions! She recognized that he was not sorry and so he was killed.

  254. JasonS says:

    Wow, what a seriously satisfying episode!

    Comment #46: Dukes909 and LostGirl – Haha, I remember thinking the same thing about Sayid’s hair. In the beginning of this season it is straightened, but after he gets tranquilized, its curly again! lol.

    Comment #114: Hammer – Yeah, in this episode its clear that Ben and Widmore were both aging. My guess is that Alpert is actually dead (perhaps he’s a left over from the Black Rock, or a founder of the others’ Utopian society) but that might explain why he can appear so suddenly, and why he doesn’t age. Similarly, I feel like Locke and Christian are dead (dead is dead afterall). It seems like certain souls can manifest themselves like they are flesh on/off the island. Even Charlie visits Hurley at Santa Rosa he claims, “I am dead, but I’m also here”. Why are they still around? Perhaps they died before they had a chance to be judged? Echo said before he died, “You’re all next”. Seems everyone will get judged when the time is right. Also really interesting from Season 1: When Locke was almost dragged under by smokey, he told Jack to let him go, that he’d be ok. I wonder what would’ve happened if Locke faced smokey then?

    Comment #185: PJ – I believe there was an episode in s03 or S04 where Ben defends himself on the purge. He said something like “I was just following orders”. I remember thinking at the time Widmore might have gave the order. Perhaps why he got banished (clearly at some point after the purge by tonight episode)?

    Comment #223: Amber – Yes, that was an intense scene, easily one of my faves of this season.

  255. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="328245"]Okay, does this sound right?

    Widmore was a double agent of sorts. He went off island often and that when he became a funder of DHARMA, had them come to the island while he was there…and gets banished after the purge? No?[/quote]
    ********
    so if Ben is with the group, the purge has happened right? But didn’t Rousseau have the baby in the 80’s and the purge happened in the 90’s? I like the idea of double agent though…spearheading DHARMA while off the island, getting “not one of us” pregnant, and who knows what else…
    -miss

  256. Scooter says:

    Wow. Fantastic.

    Questions:
    – When Ben told Danielle to run when she heard whispers… I can’t remember are the whispers a precursor to smokey showing up, or a warning of sorts like when Sayid/Shannon heard them before Shannon was shot?

    – If Llana et al always had a plan to go to war, why did they let Sun/Frank leave and let Ben and Locke do what they wanted for so long (until Caesar tried to stop them)? Llana’s whole aspect during the confrontation with Frank was one of her being changed and almost possessed. “What lies in the shadow of the statue” and “it’s time” so suddenly make me think something big happened while Frank, Ben, John, and Sun went to the main island.

  257. JasonS says:

    [quote comment="328313"][quote comment="328309"][quote comment="328299"]
    Interesting that you mention that, and then in Ben’s old house we see the game Risk on a table. Risk, the battle for World Domination. Just like Ben and Widmore are battling for Island Domination.[/quote]

    I think Risk is what Hurley and Sawyer were playing just before Keamy et al showed up. I sort of remember Hurley holding Aaron on his knee while he played?

    : ) P[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    yea they were playing right before locke and ben walked in so good detail to leave it all how it was from the producers lol nothing more…i dont think?[/quote]

    —-
    Excellent catch guys. I’m pretty sure that’s a good guess, production is just giving us the details we expect! Probably consistent with why the Dharmaville is so trashed now too… Keamy and his guys destroyed it at the end of Season 4. Claire was buried in rubble at one point!

  258. JasonS says:

    [quote comment="328244"][quote comment="328231"]If anyone says that was a filler episode….I’m gonna SCREAM! What was up with the Ajira survivors? What lies in the shadow of the statue???[/quote]
    ————————————
    Yes! WTF? Are all of the other folks on the plane, like, the descendants of the ancient people who lived on the island in the loooooong ago past? Or what? Who ARE these people?? WTF!!!!????[/quote]

    —-
    Definitely not a filler a episode, hahaha! The shadow of the statue line seemed too “fatey” to be coincidence (brings back memories: what did one snowman say to other the snowman…?) But I don’t get the impression the Ajira people have any idea why they’re supposed to be there. But I suppose they could be Whidmore people. Maybe they overheard Locke or Ben say this line before they left (Locke seems to know a lot about where to go)… and thought they’d quiz Lapidus with it?

  259. JasonS says:

    This is kind of unrelated to the main story, but anyone keep track of the little theme jingles they score for the show?

    So far I’ve only had one favorite: “Kate and Sawyer’s theme”. I think it played in the background in S03 when they hook up in the bear cages, and again in S04 right before Sawyer jumps off the helicopter.

    But I think I have a new fave now: “the island theme”. It’s a really low register piano and cello. Sounds chilling… but soo good! I think it’s first heard in in S05E05 “This place is death” when Locke, Sawyer et al come up on the Orchid… and again tonight with Locke and Ben come up on the temple.

  260. hank vega says:

    [quote comment="328231"]If anyone says that was a filler episode….I’m gonna SCREAM! What was up with the Ajira survivors? What lies in the shadow of the statue???[/quote]

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..

    That’s the password. Everybody who knows the password was hired by Widmore.

  261. hank vega says:

    [quote comment="328236"][quote comment="328232"]I have been saying it along, Ben only does what is best for the island and all the people he has killed has been a sacrifice the island demanded. He COULD have killed Rousseau and didnt. He COULD have killed Penny and didnt, he lowered the gun because they had a baby. Both of these happened after he was supposed to lose his innocense. The only thing he ever did wrong, was let Alex die and he was forgiven. Oh yea, and I knew all along that Ben knew Locke had to die and that is why he killed him. I dont think he is lying about that and the roles of Locke and Ben are officially reversed.[/quote]

    I think it’s closer to neither Ben or Widmore is in “the right.” How would you explain Ben’s cold blooded shooting of Ceaser? How about the Smoke Monster just told him that he was planning to kill Locke again? Wasn’t Ben planting the seeds of doubt in Ceasar’s mind to begin with?

    At the same time Widmore claimed that Alex was to die earlier, Ben chose to ignore the island’s wishes, (for selfish reasons?). Team Widmore took a blow today, but I definitely can’t see how in the world Ben has been doing good work. He may have a chance to redeem himself, but something is telling me he will revert back to his selfish ways.[/quote]

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Ben knew Caesar wss with Widmore. He was planting the seed to find out if Caesar had a gun.

    Why Widmore is starting a war against his own people? He is pure evil.

  262. LostJunkie says:

    This was by far the best episode of the season, and the best episode in a long time. Not only were questions answered, but they were done so with edge-of-your-seat anticipation. The scene at the harbor where Penny lives was just incredible. Every one of us had to be in fear that that was going to be the end for Penny, since right before that Ben told Sun (in present time) to tell Desmond that he’s sorry if she ever got back off the Island. I thought all my worst fears about Penny were going to come true, as I (and many of you) have been scared for Penny since the very first time we saw Ben bloodied at the harbor when he called Jack. Now that it appears Des and Penny ended up being OK, I wonder where that leaves him in the story. He doesn’t have to come back to the Island to try to avenge Penny’s death, so why would he come back? I don’t think it’s logical that he would try to hunt down Ben simply for TRYING to kill her…so we’ll just have to wait and see what his role on the show still is (I can’t imagine his role is finished).

    The scene with Ben and Smokey/Alex was unbelievable too. The tension at the moment where the smoke engulfs him was palpable. I really thought, at that moment, that it was possible that we could be seeing the end of Ben, because it certainly would have been a dramatic final moment. It’s also interesting how they have still made Ben’s purpose unclear for us. On the one hand, it seems that he knows Locke is now the one calling the shots, and Smokey/Alex have made that clear to him, but he STILL had ulterior motives in terms of wanting to kill Locke. I mean, will Ben REALLY be able to take a backseat to Locke?

    For me, Michael Emerson (Ben) and Terry O’Quinn (Locke) are the two best actors on the show, by far, and tonight’s episode was just exceptional. The way Locke now totally seems to know what the hell is going on with the Island could lend some credence to the theory that Locke is Jacob. Not saying that he is, but it’s possible. This was “Lost” again at its best–the actual drama was back.

    As for a couple of thoughts from some posts I’ve read…I don’t see how Widmore could’ve helped in building the Lamp Post. He’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, in his words, and if he built the Lamp Post then surely he would be able to find the Lamp Post and the Lamp Post tells you where the Island is, so…that theory is kaput. He obviously knows where Eloise Hawking is, since he sent Desmond there, but I think he must not know of the Lamp Post or that Hawking is connected to it. If he did, it would simply be illogical (he knows that Hawking is managing the Lamp Post but he can’t get back to the Island? No way!).

    About Comment 232, I think Ben is lying to Locke at the beginning of the episode when he tells Locke “I knew this would happen” and I think he’s teling the truth to Sun when he says “I had no idea it would happen.” At the beginning of the episode, he’s still under the impression he can run the show and says what he thinks will sound believable to Locke and what might be able to manipulate him further. To me he’s clearly surprised to see Locke alive by his initial reaction at the very moment he first sees Locke (and even Locke says this and recognizes this), and simply comes up with what he said in that conniving mind of his. But by the time he tells Sun “I had no idea…”, it’s been made clear to him by Locke’s actions that Locke is in control now, so he’s just telling Sun what he thinks. But yet, he still wants to kill Locke, according to Alex/Smokey.

    And nobody’s mentioned this…about the part where we see Widmore being exiled off the Island (about to be sent off on the sub). It’s mentioned that he had a daughter with “an outsider.” Presumably, Penny is that daughter. So, to me, that means Widmore and Penny’s mother conceived Penny off-Island, and we can put to rest the theory that Penny was born on the Island. Anybody think differently? Is the identity of Penny’s mother just an insignificant piece to the puzzle?

    Also, in the last episode we could infer that both Widmore and Ellie were on the Island at the time young Ben got shot by Sayid, in 1977. We know Widmore was there for at least a few years after that, up until he gets exiled, probably around 1984 or 1987 at the latest (I say that because if Widmore says he’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, that means “20 years ago” is the mid-1980’s.) So, I think this means Widmore had nothing to do with orchestrating the Purge; he had already left. And we didn’t see Ellie at all in this episode during the flashback scenes with Widmore, so we still don’t know when she left, and what her exact relationship to Widmore is.

    Ok, that’s all I have for now. What a great episode this was, I’m really pumped!

  263. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328366"]And nobody’s mentioned this…about the part where we see Widmore being exiled off the Island (about to be sent off on the sub). It’s mentioned that he had a daughter with “an outsider.” Presumably, Penny is that daughter. So, to me, that means Widmore and Penny’s mother conceived Penny off-Island, and we can put to rest the theory that Penny was born on the Island. Anybody think differently? Is the identity of Penny’s mother just an insignificant piece to the puzzle?[/quote]

    I am with you on Penny being the child conceived off island. Not sure if the mother will be important in the end.

    [quote comment="328366"]Also, in the last episode we could infer that both Widmore and Ellie were on the Island at the time young Ben got shot by Sayid, in 1977.[/quote]

    I didn’t necessarily infer that. In fact, the way that the redshirt said it, I felt as if possibly one were on and one were off. If this were the case, then Ellie may be have been long gone by the time Widmore was exiled.

    [quote comment="328366"]We know Widmore was there for at least a few years after that, up until he gets exiled, probably around 1984 or 1987 at the latest (I say that because if Widmore says he’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, that means “20 years ago” is the mid-1980’s.) So, I think this means Widmore had nothing to do with orchestrating the Purge; he had already left. [/quote]

    Agree with your suppositions. I will take it a step further and say that Widmore had nothing to do with ORGANIZING the purge, but more to do with CAUSING the purge – in that he was likely funding DHARMA and perhaps changed the nature of their “research” so he could use the islands powers for money-making schemes.

    : ) P

  264. Dakota says:

    [quote comment="328110"]I guess rule number 4 covers that. I didnt see it and I apologize. I wont let that happen again, but I still think thats no spoiler…I mean cmon..its one thing to try and find leaked answers but who doesnt stay tuned for scenes from the next lost…do you guys honestly change the channel when you see a lost commercial?…if so…props to you…sorry again[/quote]

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    This is an example of one of the few advantages of being an old person. I admit that I watch the promos, but by the following Wednesday I can’t remember what I saw. I just know I am totally psyched to see the new episode, but I will be damned if I know why!

  265. LostGrrl says:

    Okay, my feeling is that Locke is now like Christian. Christian was a mess while he was alive. Then he died. Then he was alive — on the island. And knew everything and acted as a guide.

    Locke was pretty much of a mess — weak, always following others. Then he died. Then he was alive on the island. And ever since he’s reappeared, he’s much more serene, confident, all-knowing. And definitely in charge. Has he touched anyone since he’s been back? I don’t think so, and neither does Christian when he appears.

    I think Locke may not be fully alive anymore, but in an “alive-state”, like Christian. Perhaps doing the work of Jacob/the island.

  266. Dakota says:

    [quote comment="328266"]Wow, Michael Emerson is one heck of an actor!![/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    He rocks! I can’t believe he has not won an Emmy for his role on Lost. There is no one else on TV that can touch him as an actor.

  267. namaste says:

    did ben go back to the island only to be judged by the smoke monster ? i dont believe it ..smothng else has to be the reason for him to go back

  268. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328384"]did ben go back to the island only to be judged by the smoke monster ? i dont believe it ..smothng else has to be the reason for him to go back[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    To run the island again…keep Widmore off the island…

  269. RGS says:

    [quote comment="328364"]
    Ben knew Caesar wss with Widmore. He was planting the seed to find out if Caesar had a gun.

    Why Widmore is starting a war against his own people? He is pure evil.[/quote]

    Not only do I not think Caesar was with Widmore, I do not think that Ben would think that at all. I also do not believe that Ilana is with Widmore, because she’s asking questions as opposed to following orders in the manner that Keamy did.

    I think Ilana is the third group of outsiders.

    Maybe that’s why the statue got destroyed, so that no one would be able to use the shadow to pinpoint whatever lies in it.

  270. Tasha says:

    I am not sure about the whole Ilana thing. Have to watch back. She reminds me of Rambini. Maybe something happened while he ws gone and the shadow/statue question was something that someone else said or something they read. I am not sure yet but I love hearing everyone’s theories!

  271. RGS says:

    [quote comment="328375"]

    We know Widmore was there for at least a few years after that, up until he gets exiled, probably around 1984 or 1987 at the latest (I say that because if Widmore says he’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, that means “20 years ago” is the mid-1980’s.) So, I think this means Widmore had nothing to do with orchestrating the Purge; he had already left.
    ***************
    Agree with your suppositions. I will take it a step further and say that Widmore had nothing to do with ORGANIZING the purge, but more to do with CAUSING the purge – in that he was likely funding DHARMA and perhaps changed the nature of their “research” so he could use the islands powers for money-making schemes.

    : ) P[/quote]

    I’m having time continuity issues again. Alex is about 5 years old on the swing, right b4 Ben goes to gloat to Widmore The Good. Alex was 17 years old (18 tops), at the time of her death in 2004. (Rousseau’s msg had been playing 17 years.)

    So 13 years from 2004 would make it 1991 when Widmore gets exiled. Not quite 20 years even loosely interpreted. Am I on the right track with that?

  272. Mia says:

    Another great episode that seemed to fly by! So this is what stuck out to me:

    1. Rousseau meets Ben around 1988 (that’s when she came to the island and Alex was born, right?) but doesn’t remember him when she caught him in the jungle in 2004 (just like not remember meeting Jin) – did her memory get wiped out?
    2. Ethan was with Ben in 1988 (purge happened in 1992?) – So Ethan was taken before the purge?
    3. The timeline seems off to me too – Widmore left when Alex was around 4-5 years old – she looked around that age? That would be around the year 1992/3 – time of the purge?
    4. The visions Ben had of Alex when he saw Smokey were kind of lame in my opinion
    5. I always said Ben is not evil and Widmore is – we shall see!

  273. Dakota says:

    LostJunkie Quote 263

    Also, in the last episode we could infer that both Widmore and Ellie were on the Island at the time young Ben got shot by Sayid, in 1977. We know Widmore was there for at least a few years after that, up until he gets exiled, probably around 1984 or 1987 at the latest (I say that because if Widmore says he’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, that means “20 years ago” is the mid-1980’s.) So, I think this means Widmore had nothing to do with orchestrating the Purge; he had already left. And we didn’t see Ellie at all in this episode during the flashback scenes with Widmore, so we still don’t know when she left, and what her exact relationship to Widmore is.

    Ok, that’s all I have for now. What a great episode this was, I’m really pumped![/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I am sure you all will correct me if I am wrong, but as for Whidmore having nothing to do with the purge as he had already left…
    The Others/Hostiles had already moved to Dharmaville when Whidmore was exhiled, so doesn’t that mean that the purge had already taken place?

  274. JZ says:

    [quote comment="328280"][quote comment="328264"][quote comment="328255"][quote comment="328254"]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n3eH1jI8AZ8/Sd1YgQw89DI/AAAAAAAAPp0/uEd7fm2S-bY/s1600-h/512+glyphs+image.jpg

    Screenshot is up for everyone LOL[/quote]
    ____________________________
    Thanks Tasha! It still REMINDS me of John’s little boy drawing though. Just the way it is layed out, something about it.[/quote]

    True. That’s got to be Anubis. Thing is….I am not sure if that is what the statue with 4 toes will be, but I don’t know. I also found this really cool article since you seem interested….

    http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/shadow.htm%5B/quote%5D

    ++++++++++++++++++

    Too lazy to write a long explanation which has already been given in the LaFleur thread.. but I’ll go on record saying the statue is not Anubis and it’s someone on the show (male character).. if I’m wrong you can have me ‘judged’[/quote]

    ++++++++++++
    First time poster and wanted to get this in here because I wanted to figure this out too….

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_B-eIPQ70kFo/SbPh7dVQjtI/AAAAAAAABAk/EQ_aLVOFAzE/s400/lost+statue.jpg

    Anyone want to analyze and shed some light while I construct my thoughts?

  275. Dakota says:

    Smokey “lives” under the Temple, right? I always thought the Temple was quite a distance from Dharmaville, but it appeared that the secret passage in Ben’s house may be part of the Temple (Hieroglyphics). So when he fell through to the passage way underneath the passage way he was traveling, he was at Smokey’s “lair”? It appeared so. That would mean the passage he was taking when he fell lead to the Temple? So, why when he sent Alex, Karl and Rousseau to seek safety did he not send them through this passage? Also, Dharma built the house that Ben lived in and located it at a secret passage entrance to the Temple, so whoever originally lived in that house would have had knowledge of the Temple? Guess that solidifies Whidmore’s backing of Dharma?

  276. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328389"][quote comment="328375"]

    We know Widmore was there for at least a few years after that, up until he gets exiled, probably around 1984 or 1987 at the latest (I say that because if Widmore says he’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, that means “20 years ago” is the mid-1980’s.) So, I think this means Widmore had nothing to do with orchestrating the Purge; he had already left.
    ***************
    Agree with your suppositions. I will take it a step further and say that Widmore had nothing to do with ORGANIZING the purge, but more to do with CAUSING the purge – in that he was likely funding DHARMA and perhaps changed the nature of their “research” so he could use the islands powers for money-making schemes.

    : ) P[/quote]

    I’m having time continuity issues again. Alex is about 5 years old on the swing, right b4 Ben goes to gloat to Widmore The Good. Alex was 17 years old (18 tops), at the time of her death in 2004. (Rousseau’s msg had been playing 17 years.)

    So 13 years from 2004 would make it 1991 when Widmore gets exiled. Not quite 20 years even loosely interpreted. Am I on the right track with that?[/quote]
    _____

    She may have been older than 5…maybe 6..or 7. Might have learned to talk slower because of lack of preschool…LOL

  277. RGS says:

    [quote comment="328391"]LostJunkie Quote 263

    Also, in the last episode we could infer that both Widmore and Ellie were on the Island at the time young Ben got shot by Sayid, in 1977. We know Widmore was there for at least a few years after that, up until he gets exiled, probably around 1984 or 1987 at the latest (I say that because if Widmore says he’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, that means “20 years ago” is the mid-1980’s.) So, I think this means Widmore had nothing to do with orchestrating the Purge; he had already left. And we didn’t see Ellie at all in this episode during the flashback scenes with Widmore, so we still don’t know when she left, and what her exact relationship to Widmore is.

    Ok, that’s all I have for now. What a great episode this was, I’m really pumped![/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I am sure you all will correct me if I am wrong, but as for Whidmore having nothing to do with the purge as he had already left…
    The Others/Hostiles had already moved to Dharmaville when Whidmore was exhiled, so doesn’t that mean that the purge had already taken place?[/quote]

    Yes, that is a good catch. If it turns out the Widmore funded Dharma in some way, then orchestrated the purge of his own folks to throw off Richard and the Others…then he is truly evil.

  278. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328391"]LostJunkie Quote 263

    quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I am sure you all will correct me if I am wrong, but as for Whidmore having nothing to do with the purge as he had already left…
    The Others/Hostiles had already moved to Dharmaville when Whidmore was exhiled, so doesn’t that mean that the purge had already taken place?[/quote]

    ___________

    I was thinking it was after the Purge. Ben seemed like a good daddy! LOL. I think I love Ben now. Maybe I have been drinking that Jungle Juice too much too.

  279. Dakota says:

    [quote comment="328393"]Smokey “lives” under the Temple, right? I always thought the Temple was quite a distance from Dharmaville, but it appeared that the secret passage in Ben’s house may be part of the Temple (Hieroglyphics). So when he fell through to the passage way underneath the passage way he was traveling, he was at Smokey’s “lair”? It appeared so. That would mean the passage he was taking when he fell lead to the Temple? So, why when he sent Alex, Karl and Rousseau to seek safety did he not send them through this passage? Also, Dharma built the house that Ben lived in and located it at a secret passage entrance to the Temple, so whoever originally lived in that house would have had knowledge of the Temple? Guess that solidifies Whidmore’s backing of Dharma?[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Never mind. (in my best Gilda Radner voice)
    I remembered just as I pushed the submit button that Ben and Locke traveled to the Temple site and entered through the “cave” that Rousseau’s team went down, not through the passage way in Ben’s house.

  280. Tasha says:

    SOOOOOO…Does this saying anything about Charles being the leader for 30 years? Is that confirmed now? Where is Duke? Sure he would love it! It seems he was right…maybe.

  281. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328394"][quote comment="328389"][quote comment="328375"]

    We know Widmore was there for at least a few years after that, up until he gets exiled, probably around 1984 or 1987 at the latest (I say that because if Widmore says he’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, that means “20 years ago” is the mid-1980’s.) So, I think this means Widmore had nothing to do with orchestrating the Purge; he had already left.
    ***************
    Agree with your suppositions. I will take it a step further and say that Widmore had nothing to do with ORGANIZING the purge, but more to do with CAUSING the purge – in that he was likely funding DHARMA and perhaps changed the nature of their “research” so he could use the islands powers for money-making schemes.

    : ) P[/quote]

    I’m having time continuity issues again. Alex is about 5 years old on the swing, right b4 Ben goes to gloat to Widmore The Good. Alex was 17 years old (18 tops), at the time of her death in 2004. (Rousseau’s msg had been playing 17 years.)

    So 13 years from 2004 would make it 1991 when Widmore gets exiled. Not quite 20 years even loosely interpreted. Am I on the right track with that?[/quote]
    _____

    She may have been older than 5…maybe 6..or 7. Might have learned to talk slower because of lack of preschool…LOL[/quote]
    _____

    Crap. I see where you are going…my bad. Definat6ely not 20 years unless there is time traveling going on. That’s another Ben’s Bullet Issue. That’s a kind of big error if they made that.

  282. Tasha says:

    IS the guy that tell’s Lapedus EDDIE? Guess just playing another part…or is it really him? He better die soon before he runs into Locke!

  283. Tasha says:

    NOPE not him!

  284. locke42 says:

    [quote comment="328039"]Christian arrives on the island dead and becomes Jacob. Now Locke arrives on the island (in Christian’s shoes) dead. Is he now Jacob, and if so what happens to Christian? Is he the new Ben and Ben the new Richard? Have they all been Jacob at one time, including Whitmore?
    Just looking for some ideas on this.[/quote]

    everyone who is on the island is there for a reason… no one just ended up on the island… christians dead must have some purpose… but he is def not jacob… and i dont think whitmore was ever jacob… rmr he was banished… im sure jacob wouldnt be someone who doesnt have control over his feelings… i think the island chooses ppl as puppets so tht it can deliver its msg…. john is alive.. i dont know how or why…

  285. LostSouls says:

    [quote comment="328264"][quote comment="328255"][quote comment="328254"]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n3eH1jI8AZ8/Sd1YgQw89DI/AAAAAAAAPp0/uEd7fm2S-bY/s1600-h/512+glyphs+image.jpg

    Screenshot is up for everyone LOL[/quote]
    ____________________________
    Thanks Tasha! It still REMINDS me of John’s little boy drawing though. Just the way it is layed out, something about it.[/quote]

    True. That’s got to be Anubis. Thing is….I am not sure if that is what the statue with 4 toes will be, but I don’t know. I also found this really cool article since you seem interested….

    http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/shadow.htm%5B/quote%5D
    __________________________________

    Smokey=Ammit OR Babi

    Island=Aru

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaru

  286. LINS says:

    [quote comment="328366"]As for a couple of thoughts from some posts I’ve read…I don’t see how Widmore could’ve helped in building the Lamp Post. He’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, in his words, and if he built the Lamp Post then surely he would be able to find the Lamp Post and the Lamp Post tells you where the Island is, so…that theory is kaput. He obviously knows where Eloise Hawking is, since he sent Desmond there, but I think he must not know of the Lamp Post or that Hawking is connected to it. If he did, it would simply be illogical (he knows that Hawking is managing the Lamp Post but he can’t get back to the Island? No way!).[/quote]

    I think Widmore knows about the Lamp Post and has been using it to find the island, but I think he believes that he really can’t go back, that he would be breaking the rules. I wish we had seen more about his banishment to understand really why he was leaving…I thought it would be a bigger deal than just getting escorted to the sub.

  287. woManfromtallahassee says:

    formerly flgrl but that name just came to me. No idea why I never thought of it before but I think I’ll stick with it unless that’s too confusing. :)

    Awesome episode!!!

    comment #185 (and others) – I think Ben’s killing of his dad is really a separate issue from the purge. The purge was done sort of anonymously and from a distance, but killing his dad was in his face, cold blooded murder. The purge may have been for the island’s sake, but killing his dad was just revenge for years of torture. Don’t think smokey would’ve liked that too much.

    Commend #239 – “What lies in the shadow of the statue?” sounds much more like a code phrase than an actual question. They are definitely some sort of secret group – widmore or otherwise.

    I watched most of this episode peeking through my fingers. Ben is good?! What?! Too weird.

  288. Skweez says:

    The phone call that Ben made to Widmore got me thinking.

    BEN: Doesn’t matter. What matters is I’m going back to the Island today.

    WIDMORE: The Island won’t let you come back, trust me. I’ve spent almost 20 years trying to return.

    BEN: Well, Charles, where you failed, I’m going to succeed… just as soon as I do one thing.

    I’m starting to believe that Widmore didn’t have a problem FINDING the ilsand, his problem was being ALLOWED to return. My theory is that the island only allows one “leader” to occupy it at a time. Therefore, in addition to Ben getting the vital info. from John, I think the other reason was that he knew he would have to kill the defacto leader in order to be granted access to the island. Also, I think that’s why he was so surprised to see John when he woke up. He knew that this meant the island had rejected him and that he had to be judged but there would be no more leader roles for him.

  289. woManfromtallahassee says:

    Also back to something I mentioned many episodes ago:

    It seems pretty clear that there’s a strong Egyptian influence for some reason and there has also been references to otherworldly things (e.g. The Little Prince and this whole dead/undead thing). I know it sounds crazy, but Egyptians and Aliens are completely related in my mind. Maybe it’s because I’ve watched so many shows where that sort of connection has been made, but that’s where I feel like we’re going. I just hope if that does happen, it doesn’t come off being too cheesy. Or maybe I’m completely wrong and they are all just zombies.

  290. Leslie says:

    [quote comment="328389"][quote comment="328375"]

    We know Widmore was there for at least a few years after that, up until he gets exiled, probably around 1984 or 1987 at the latest (I say that because if Widmore says he’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, that means “20 years ago” is the mid-1980’s.) So, I think this means Widmore had nothing to do with orchestrating the Purge; he had already left.
    ***************
    Agree with your suppositions. I will take it a step further and say that Widmore had nothing to do with ORGANIZING the purge, but more to do with CAUSING the purge – in that he was likely funding DHARMA and perhaps changed the nature of their “research” so he could use the islands powers for money-making schemes.

    : ) P[/quote]

    I’m having time continuity issues again. Alex is about 5 years old on the swing, right b4 Ben goes to gloat to Widmore The Good. Alex was 17 years old (18 tops), at the time of her death in 2004. (Rousseau’s msg had been playing 17 years.)

    So 13 years from 2004 would make it 1991 when Widmore gets exiled. Not quite 20 years even loosely interpreted. Am I on the right track with that?[/quote]

    I am totally with you on that. There has been a lot of talk about continuity errors and that one is so glaring, I can’t quite believe it, especially when that “20 years” has been stated at least twice by Ben and Widmore. I can almost swear that Alex was 16 when she was killed and yes “little Alex” was about 5 when Widmore was banished. So that would mean only eleven years had passed between Widmore being tossed out and Alex getting killed–even adding 3 years that the O6 have been gone–makes no sense. I also wonder where the heck all of Ben’s people are? I know they ran for safety when Keamy et. al. attacked the island, but wouldn’t it be safe to come back by now?

  291. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328366"]
    About Comment 232, I think Ben is lying to Locke at the beginning of the episode when he tells Locke “I knew this would happen” and I think he’s teling the truth to Sun when he says “I had no idea it would happen.” At the beginning of the episode, he’s still under the impression he can run the show and says what he thinks will sound believable to Locke and what might be able to manipulate him further. To me he’s clearly surprised to see Locke alive by his initial reaction at the very moment he first sees Locke (and even Locke says this and recognizes this), and simply comes up with what he said in that conniving mind of his. But by the time he tells Sun “I had no idea…”, it’s been made clear to him by Locke’s actions that Locke is in control now, so he’s just telling Sun what he thinks. But yet, he still wants to kill Locke, according to Alex/Smokey.
    [/quote]

    In general I agree with this, although I don’t think Ben is being completely honest with Sun. Just like he was trying to manipulate Locke in the earlier conversation, I believe he was manipulating Sun in that conversation. Remember that just a day or two prior, Sun made it known that she wanted to kill Ben. At this point, she is only “letting” him live because she needs him to help her find Jin. So by saying he’s afraid of Locke, Ben is trying to put the same fear into Sun, to turn her into his ally, so she might change her mind about killing him (Ben). (just like Ben did with Caesar earlier)

    Related to this, when Locke said something to Ben like, “how do you like asking questions you don’t know the answers to?”, and Ben replied “I don’t like it at all”, I think Ben was still manipulating Locke in that scene. Ben was acting as if he considered Locke his leader, and I think he was doing that as part of a plan to make Locke feel comfortable and overconfident in that position, and at the right opportunity he would try to take advantage of Locke’s complacency and kill Locke again. However, I’d think that after being screwed over by Ben several times, Locke would have learned never to trust him.

    But I do think, that after his encounter with Smokey/Alex, Ben will abandon his plans to kill Locke. He seemed genuinely humbled and remorseful.

    (and like others here have said, fantastic acting by Michael Emerson throughout)

  292. Hoof_Hearted says:

    I still would like to know where the hell Faraday is? Did he take the option to leave the island on the sub to continue his reasearch? Did he go loony and is wearing a straight jacket in a polar bear cage?

    I feel the smokey drawing done by a 5 year old Locke is more significant then anyone has stated considering that he would have no cognitive memories yet at the age of 5 so I don’t know where I’m going with this but I feel the fact thtat he had images in his head at 5 years old of the smokemonster shows he was born to with this purpose.

    The box that Llana and some of the other beach people are carrying reminded me of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom when they bring that giant chest to the temple and open it and it is like crazy spirits that get released and melt peoples faces (lol).

    I have more random thoughts to post but I’ll get back to it…

  293. Hoof_Hearted says:

    [quote comment="328272]
    not sure why, but I feel as though the temple “is in the shadow of the statue”. [/quote]

    I think somone else stated this but I have to say that I think there may be the posisbility that this is just code for identifying who is a part of teh same group.

    as in a number of these people (Llana, big guy with her) were recruited for some sort of a mission. By whome we have yet to find out.

    [quote comment="328366"] We know Widmore was there for at least a few years after that, up until he gets exiled, probably around 1984 or 1987 at the latest (I say that because if Widmore says he’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, that means “20 years ago” is the mid-1980’s.) So, I think this means Widmore had nothing to do with orchestrating the Purge; he had already left. [/quote]

    I believe this has already been stated as well but imo the purge alreeady had to happen as the others are living in the Dharma camp. This doesn’t really seem to be negotiable.

    I still would like to know where the hell Faraday is? Did he take the option to leave the island on the sub to continue his reasearch? Did he go loony and is wearing a straight jacket in a polar bear cage?

    I feel the smokey drawing done by a 5 year old Locke is more significant then anyone has stated considering that he would have no cognitive memories yet at the age of 5 so I don’t know where I’m going with this but I feel the fact thtat he had images in his head at 5 years old of the smokemonster shows he was born to with this purpose.

    The box that Llana and some of the other beach people are carrying reminded me of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom when they bring that giant chest to the temple and open it and it is like crazy spirits that get released and melt peoples faces (lol).

    I have more random thoughts to post but I’ll get back to it…

  294. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328429"]Also back to something I mentioned many episodes ago:

    It seems pretty clear that there’s a strong Egyptian influence for some reason and there has also been references to otherworldly things (e.g. The Little Prince and this whole dead/undead thing). I know it sounds crazy, but Egyptians and Aliens are completely related in my mind. Maybe it’s because I’ve watched so many shows where that sort of connection has been made, but that’s where I feel like we’re going. I just hope if that does happen, it doesn’t come off being too cheesy. Or maybe I’m completely wrong and they are all just zombies.[/quote]
    ___________________

    I agree with YOU LOL. I have always believed in the theory that the GODS WERE ALIENS. There is a show that airs on the History channel called Ancient Aliens. I have it recorded on my DVR. You should totally watch it!

  295. woManfromtallahassee says:

    [quote comment="328438"][quote comment="328429"]Also back to something I mentioned many episodes ago:

    It seems pretty clear that there’s a strong Egyptian influence for some reason and there has also been references to otherworldly things (e.g. The Little Prince and this whole dead/undead thing). I know it sounds crazy, but Egyptians and Aliens are completely related in my mind. Maybe it’s because I’ve watched so many shows where that sort of connection has been made, but that’s where I feel like we’re going. I just hope if that does happen, it doesn’t come off being too cheesy. Or maybe I’m completely wrong and they are all just zombies.[/quote]
    ___________________

    I agree with YOU LOL. I have always believed in the theory that the GODS WERE ALIENS. There is a show that airs on the History channel called Ancient Aliens. I have it recorded on my DVR. You should totally watch it![/quote]

    ****************

    I think I’ve clearly watched too many of those as it is! :)

  296. hank vega says:

    [quote comment="328305"][quote comment="328297"][quote comment="328295"][quote comment="328280"]Too lazy to write a long explanation which has already been given in the LaFleur thread.. but I’ll go on record saying the statue is not Anubis and it’s someone on the show (male character).. if I’m wrong you can have me ‘judged’[/quote]

    Why can’t it be BOTH?

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Yes….like Jacob?[/quote]

    ++++++++++++++

    Because if a human had a face and snout of a dog.. it would no longer look human lol.. so it can’t be both unless Jacob literally is a dog/human which would be too wacky even for Lost standards.. and the 4TS is clearly not Anubis based on the lengthy locks of hair extending down its upper back.. Anubis is only represented with a dog head in reliefs and sculptures.. never with extensions of human hair

    personally i’m leaning towards Daniel Faraday being the 4TS after having travelled through time again[/quote]

    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Faraday is going to loose a foot, but i don’t think he has 4 toes. Unless he gets diabetes along the way.

  297. Rumblestilskin says:

    Comment #185: PJ – I believe there was an episode in s03 or S04 where Ben defends himself on the purge. He said something like “I was just following orders”. I remember thinking at the time Widmore might have gave the order. Perhaps why he got banished (clearly at some point after the purge by tonight episode)?

    If Dharma were still in charge (of there area), then the others wouldn’t have had free access to the dock and submarine :)

  298. Rumblestilskin says:

    LostGrrl Said:
    Locke was pretty much of a mess — weak, always following others. Then he died. Then he was alive on the island. And ever since he’s reappeared, he’s much more serene, confident, all-knowing. And definitely in charge. Has he touched anyone since he’s been back? I don’t think so, and neither does Christian when he appears.

    ——————————–

    But he (Chrstian) was holding baby Aaron when Clair disappeared.

  299. hank vega says:

    [quote comment="328386"][quote comment="328364"]
    Ben knew Caesar wss with Widmore. He was planting the seed to find out if Caesar had a gun.

    Why Widmore is starting a war against his own people? He is pure evil.[/quote]

    Not only do I not think Caesar was with Widmore, I do not think that Ben would think that at all. I also do not believe that Ilana is with Widmore, because she’s asking questions as opposed to following orders in the manner that Keamy did.

    I think Ilana is the third group of outsiders.

    Maybe that’s why the statue got destroyed, so that no one would be able to use the shadow to pinpoint whatever lies in it.[/quote]

    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

    I don’t think they necessarily know they are working for Widmore, but it’s becoming clear that Widmore send them to “clear” the island. Widmore can only be back is everybody is dead. The idea of adding a third group of outsiders doesn’t make any sense at this point on the show.
    Still believe Illana was asking Frank for the password.

  300. hank vega says:

    [quote comment="328386"][quote comment="328364"]
    Ben knew Caesar wss with Widmore. He was planting the seed to find out if Caesar had a gun.

    Why Widmore is starting a war against his own people? He is pure evil.[/quote]

    Not only do I not think Caesar was with Widmore, I do not think that Ben would think that at all. I also do not believe that Ilana is with Widmore, because she’s asking questions as opposed to following orders in the manner that Keamy did.

    I think Ilana is the third group of outsiders.

    Maybe that’s why the statue got destroyed, so that no one would be able to use the shadow to pinpoint whatever lies in it.[/quote]

    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

    I don’t think they necessarily know they are working for Widmore, but it’s becoming clear that Widmore send them to “clear” the island. Widmore can only be back if everybody is dead. The idea of adding a third group of outsiders doesn’t make any sense at this point on the show.
    Still believe Illana was asking Frank for the password.

  301. hank vega says:

    Could Locke be the smoke monster now? The smoke monster didn’t appear until Locke was gone.

  302. Rumblestilskin says:

    Hank Vega said:
    Could Locke be the smoke monster now? The smoke monster didn’t appear until Locke was gone.

    ———————————-
    Good question. Also, when Ben thought that Smokie was going 2 come out of the jungle, Locke did.

  303. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="328408"][quote comment="328366"]As for a couple of thoughts from some posts I’ve read…I don’t see how Widmore could’ve helped in building the Lamp Post. He’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, in his words, and if he built the Lamp Post then surely he would be able to find the Lamp Post and the Lamp Post tells you where the Island is, so…that theory is kaput. He obviously knows where Eloise Hawking is, since he sent Desmond there, but I think he must not know of the Lamp Post or that Hawking is connected to it. If he did, it would simply be illogical (he knows that Hawking is managing the Lamp Post but he can’t get back to the Island? No way!).[/quote]

    I think Widmore knows about the Lamp Post and has been using it to find the island, but I think he believes that he really can’t go back, that he would be breaking the rules. I wish we had seen more about his banishment to understand really why he was leaving…I thought it would be a bigger deal than just getting escorted to the sub.[/quote]
    *********************
    Didn’t Widmore also say that Ben “tricked” him? Didn’t look like much of a trick in that scene…I am also having trouble with the timeline of Ben taking the baby, the purge and Widmore getting exiled! Anyone have a good explanation?
    -miss

  304. Rumblestilskin says:

    I was wondering the same thing.
    It didnt look like much of a trick 2 me either, and I remember Charles saying that 2 Locke.

  305. Tasha says:

    Thinking about the Purge and wanting Ben to be good….I was thinking that maybe the incident had something to do with Dharma becoming Zombies or they all got some disease which is why certain Dharma people left. Maybe the Natives and now ben are immune to it(because of jacob?). So he gasses everyone because they need to die before they make it to the outside world and spread it or something. So maybe Ben did it to protect humanity somehow. Just a thought. I just want Ben to be good LOL.

  306. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328469"]I was wondering the same thing.
    It didnt look like much of a trick 2 me either, and I remember Charles saying that 2 Locke.[/quote]
    My guess is there were certain events that preceded the actual departure scene that we saw, and those events are the “trick” Widmore mentioned. Hopefully we’ll see this in an upcoming episode.

  307. Ra says:

    So are we running away from the statue being Tarewet the fertility god of ancient egypt. The back view of the statue we see shows it holding 2 Ancs, one in each hand. Anubis and other ancient egyptian gods were always depicted only holding one. Tarewet holds 2. Also I agree with the fact that Anubis is really never depicted with long hair, and the ears on the statue we see aren’t pointy like Anubis. but…the picture in the Temple we see has got to be Anubis and it looks like hes feeding the smoke monster something…thoughts…

  308. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328469"]I was wondering the same thing.
    It didnt look like much of a trick 2 me either, and I remember Charles saying that 2 Locke.[/quote]
    ____________

    Didn’t somebody have a thoery that the island was in a different time than the outside world? COuldn’t somewhere in all this, when Charle’s leave’s the island he gets sent back in time or something? Maybe at some point, time on the island stopped completely, so even though in the outside world 20 years go by, on the island it has only been something else? Or am I completely out of my mind here?

    Charles can also one day go BACK to the island but like Jack and them, go back to a point in time a certain amount of years beforehand. Then get off, assuming our Losties get off again, but this time when he gets off the year is 1984.

    I don’t know just throwing some ideas out there that may be way out of line….

  309. Toeknee says:

    And didn’t Widmore have handcuffs on in that departure scene? I’d imagine we’ll get an explanation about that.

  310. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328478"]So are we running away from the statue being Tarewet the fertility god of ancient egypt. The back view of the statue we see shows it holding 2 Ancs, one in each hand. Anubis and other ancient egyptian gods were always depicted only holding one. Tarewet holds 2. Also I agree with the fact that Anubis is really never depicted with long hair, and the ears on the statue we see aren’t pointy like Anubis. but…the picture in the Temple we see has got to be Anubis and it looks like hes feeding the smoke monster something…thoughts…[/quote]
    _______

    I thought the same thing(feeding), or maybe it’s Anubis himself being judged. Not sure. I don’t think the statue is Anubis, but I know others agree it is. I think it’s someone else.

  311. Mr. $tuart says:

    The best part of this episode was when Ben strolled up to Ilana and her cronies all frienly asking if they needed help. The dorky smile and chipper demeanor hiding the fact that he knows exactly what they’re up to.

    I copied this comment from a review on tvsquad.com:

    “Speaking of Smokey, at least we know what it is now – flush the cave toilet and your reward is a visit from the floating smoke turd. OK, not really, but what was up with that summoning process?”

  312. Jim in Georgia says:

    I’m not one of Ben’s original fans, but I do like the way he set up Caesar.

  313. wallyp says:

    To me it looked like Widmore was trying to trick Ben into killing the baby, so that Ben would be exiled then and there. Widmore saw Ben as a threat from the start. Now I guess it took a few years to actually get widmore off the island, but I’m guessing he was a pretty bad guy all along and deserved it. (maybe not though, we haven’t seen him do anything significantly evil yet) Maybe the purge had something to do with leading widmore off the island. BUT it also appears that killing Alex would be how Ben was SUPPOSED to be exiled. Widmore said “It will happen eventually, and when it does…” right?

    -Frank Lapidus is totally an egyptian. And I’m still kicking around that Richard is the alien (or a god-but not all powerful or all knowing). I hope Frank Lapidus has a flashback episode soon. I think he will since he just got knocked out. However I think I’m gonna lean toward the password theory regarding “what lies in the shadow of the statue”.

    What does anyway? The wheel?

  314. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328478"]So are we running away from the statue being Tarewet the fertility god of ancient egypt. The back view of the statue we see shows it holding 2 Ancs, one in each hand. Anubis and other ancient egyptian gods were always depicted only holding one. Tarewet holds 2. Also I agree with the fact that Anubis is really never depicted with long hair, and the ears on the statue we see aren’t pointy like Anubis. but…the picture in the Temple we see has got to be Anubis and it looks like hes feeding the smoke monster something…thoughts…[/quote]

    Tawaret, it still could be.

    But if you want long hair, Anubis had it:

    http://www.egyptianmyths.net/anubis.htm

    : ) P

  315. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="328026"]Last night, I listened to the latest audio podcast… in it D&C said that they had already written the Miles/Hurley and the Time Travel explanation scene before the first episode of the season aired. I believe that could be true.

    They ALSO said that they had already written the death episode for Nikki and Paulo before their “premier” episode even aired. I believe this directly contradicts other podcasts in which they told us that they wrote N&P IN because of the fans (who wanted to see more background characters), and also wrote them OUT because of the fans (because the fans didn’t like them).

    Things that make you want to say hmmmmm.

    I have said many times that I think N&P were there for a reason. I wonder…

    : ) P[/quote]

    * * * * *

    D & C also commented that, after an episode is “in the can,” they staff sits down and watches it form the POV of a viewer. They didn’t like N & P all that much.

    8) Jim

  316. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="328085"]To me Faraday is the key. Whatever he is off doing I believe he is the only one that can make this show not as crazy. If they give scientific explanations to the TT (i.e. Quantum Mechanics, Relativity, and Theoretical physics) then maybe it wont seem so NOT believable.

    I love the show and hope Lost is the seed that starts a new wave of TV just like it. Steering us away from Reality TV and toward an interaction between the show and the viewers. I love how this is a show that requires thinking, theories and discussion[/quote]

    * * * * *

    Yes, please! Why are people intrigued by watching a celebirty(?) get smashed and fall down?

    8) Jim

  317. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328490"][quote comment="328478"]So are we running away from the statue being Tarewet the fertility god of ancient egypt. The back view of the statue we see shows it holding 2 Ancs, one in each hand. Anubis and other ancient egyptian gods were always depicted only holding one. Tarewet holds 2. Also I agree with the fact that Anubis is really never depicted with long hair, and the ears on the statue we see aren’t pointy like Anubis. but…the picture in the Temple we see has got to be Anubis and it looks like hes feeding the smoke monster something…thoughts…[/quote]

    Tawaret, it still could be.

    But if you want long hair, Anubis had it:

    http://www.egyptianmyths.net/anubis.htm

    : ) P[/quote]
    __________

    My problem is the ears. The hair doesn’t bother me. Just the ears….plus anubis is often seen holding some type of wand or staff or something….but anything can go on this show.

  318. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="328179"]LIES, LIES, and more LIES…. from Ben

    I don’t buy the judged by the smoke monster stuff. I don’t buy anything from Ben’s mouth… I think it is more of the usual manipulation from Ben. Why fall for it again? Locke is smarter this time, I hope!

    We shall see…..

    Dead is Dead, could be something different then what we think it is right now… lets wait for the show to finish and then we can have a better idea of what they meant by this title. At this time everything we say about the title is pure speculation.[/quote]

    * * * * *

    Ben said “Dead is dead” when talking to Sun about the Island’s power. A probable misquote: “The Island can heal, but dead is dead. This…”

    8) Jim

  319. JZ says:

    [quote comment="328478"]So are we running away from the statue being Tarewet the fertility god of ancient egypt. The back view of the statue we see shows it holding 2 Ancs, one in each hand. Anubis and other ancient egyptian gods were always depicted only holding one. Tarewet holds 2. Also I agree with the fact that Anubis is really never depicted with long hair, and the ears on the statue we see aren’t pointy like Anubis. but…the picture in the Temple we see has got to be Anubis and it looks like hes feeding the smoke monster something…thoughts…[/quote]

    is this referring to my earlier post? thanks if it is…if not i think my post is 275…but here is the link i provided there http://tle1lost.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/2009-03-05_155047_14194.jpg

    anyway…it DOES look like the carving in smokie’s home, that Anubis is giving him something. Do you also see the smaller looking object carved there? Looks kind of like a baby? Located in between them?

    One more thing about this-in the upper right corner an ankh is featured upside down and that the whole “picture” has snakes in it. I did some research and quoting “Black Man of the Nile and his Family” (page 362) states that the upside down ankh is a latin cross symbolizing sorrow (interesting that ben says he’s sorry to Alex)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh-Morpork -talks about a fictional city-state…the origin of the ankh gets interesting under the “Geography” & “History” part

    thoughts??

  320. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="328191"]OOOOHHH Hammer, “if you hear whispers, run the other way”!!!![/quote]

    * * * * *

    Was Ben offering Rousseau advice to protect herself or was he adding something to drive her over the edge?

    8) Jim

  321. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="328489"]To me it looked like Widmore was trying to trick Ben into killing the baby, so that Ben would be exiled then and there. Widmore saw Ben as a threat from the start. Now I guess it took a few years to actually get widmore off the island, but I’m guessing he was a pretty bad guy all along and deserved it. (maybe not though, we haven’t seen him do anything significantly evil yet) Maybe the purge had something to do with leading widmore off the island. BUT it also appears that killing Alex would be how Ben was SUPPOSED to be exiled. Widmore said “It will happen eventually, and when it does…” right?

    -Frank Lapidus is totally an egyptian. And I’m still kicking around that Richard is the alien (or a god-but not all powerful or all knowing). I hope Frank Lapidus has a flashback episode soon. I think he will since he just got knocked out. However I think I’m gonna lean toward the password theory regarding “what lies in the shadow of the statue”.

    What does anyway? The wheel?[/quote]
    *************************
    Widmore very well could have trying to trick Ben, not sure on that…as old as Penny is (she is older than Alex) Widmore would have already been a dad when he ordered Ben to kill the baby and Danielle. Maybe Jacob did tell Widmore that Ben had to kill Danielle and the baby because they were not killed while she was pregnant. Maybe Ben and Ethan were really still a part of Dharma at this time but trying to fulfill some sort of test to become a part of the others… I have to say that the young Widmore who talked to young Ben seemed nice and comforting when he talked to him.
    Not sure why the island or Jacob would want Danielle and her baby killed but maybe there was or will be an explanation.

  322. JZ says:

    [quote comment="328499"][quote comment="328478"]So are we running away from the statue being Tarewet the fertility god of ancient egypt. The back view of the statue we see shows it holding 2 Ancs, one in each hand. Anubis and other ancient egyptian gods were always depicted only holding one. Tarewet holds 2. Also I agree with the fact that Anubis is really never depicted with long hair, and the ears on the statue we see aren’t pointy like Anubis. but…the picture in the Temple we see has got to be Anubis and it looks like hes feeding the smoke monster something…thoughts…[/quote]

    is this referring to my earlier post? thanks if it is…if not i think my post is 275…but here is the link i provided there http://tle1lost.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/2009-03-05_155047_14194.jpg

    anyway…it DOES look like the carving in smokie’s home, that Anubis is giving him something. Do you also see the smaller looking object carved there? Looks kind of like a baby? Located in between them?

    One more thing about this-in the upper right corner an ankh is featured upside down and that the whole “picture” has snakes in it. I did some research and quoting “Black Man of the Nile and his Family” (page 362) states that the upside down ankh is a latin cross symbolizing sorrow (interesting that ben says he’s sorry to Alex)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh-Morpork -talks about a fictional city-state…the origin of the ankh gets interesting under the “Geography” & “History” part

    thoughts??[/quote]

    +++++++++

    also wanted to add that it’s interesting Ben said he’s sorry because we saw from his home that he had alot of egyptian figurines and that he read alot. Probably alot about heiroglypics considering all the markings his secret door and the rest of the island had…maybe he saw that in the upper right corner before smokey came and figured he HAD to say sorry???

  323. sector7 says:

    Ben: Where did John go?
    Sun: He said he had something to do.
    Ben: Did he say what it was?
    Sun: No, I didn’t ask.

    Can’t a guy take a dump in peace? Jeez.

  324. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328510"]Ben: Where did John go?
    Sun: He said he had something to do.
    Ben: Did he say what it was?
    Sun: No, I didn’t ask.

    Can’t a guy take a dump in peace? Jeez.[/quote]
    ______________-

    Funny he KNEW where to go. I think John knew that Ben was gonna live. I don’t think he was taking a dump…..so where WAS he?

    I also find it iteresting that he tells Sun he is the same John he has always been…or something along those lines. Hmmmmm

  325. Lar says:

    Just a thought here, but I can’t see Ben being so remorseful about shooting Des that he would make such a point of getting an apology back to him. We didn’t see the end of the Ben\Penny\Des scene, and I’m thinking Ben either does end up killing Penny, OR, given the two scenes last night where Ben showed a soft spot for kids, it might be more likely that he killed little Charlie, possible by accident. anyone feelin’ me on this?

  326. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328522"]Just a thought here, but I can’t see Ben being so remorseful about shooting Des that he would make such a point of getting an apology back to him. We didn’t see the end of the Ben\Penny\Des scene, and I’m thinking Ben either does end up killing Penny, OR, given the two scenes last night where Ben showed a soft spot for kids, it might be more likely that he killed little Charlie, possible by accident. anyone feelin’ me on this?[/quote]
    ______

    IMO, they showed us exactly what they wanted us to see. I think he was just truly sorry and didn’t realize they had a child. That’s just me. I think the mystery is solved, but again….I may be wrong.

  327. city of angels says:

    really good stuff from that LAtimes blog that merits discussion

    1. “Tonight, we fully expected to see the scoop on the temple, the monster and what happened to Penny, but who could have expected the revelation that Ilana and a few other passengers from the Ajira Airways flight were apparently Others all along (though of the exiled and ticked-off-about-it variety).

    The giveaway? Their code with one another: “What lies in the shadow of the statue?” The answer? We don’t know for sure yet. Though there are a few options. “Death” is my guess, but depending on the definition of “lies” it could also be “Ben.” How cutesy are the Others? Not very. I’m sticking with “Death.”

    2.
    Presumably that also clears up the question of whom the broken, four-toed statue depicts. It’s Anubis’ island, and Ben and Locke and even Widmore are merely visitors.

    Are Ilana and the rest of the crew REALLY exiled others?

  328. Bula says:

    [quote comment="328516"]I also find it iteresting that he tells Sun he is the same John he has always been…or something along those lines. Hmmmmm[/quote]

    That was just a simple gesture of reassurance to Sun with whom Locke has a history. Sun knows the island is powerful, it has done things to her that were supposed to be impossible. Locke is asking her to continue her faith.

  329. RGS says:

    [quote comment="328463"]
    I don’t think they necessarily know they are working for Widmore, but it’s becoming clear that Widmore send them to “clear” the island. Widmore can only be back if everybody is dead. The idea of adding a third group of outsiders doesn’t make any sense at this point on the show.
    Still believe Illana was asking Frank for the password.[/quote]

    Though I am not sold on it being a pass phrase, I do recognize it as a very plausible theory. My issue would then be, Widmore is sending another group, and these members do not know who comprises their own group, to the point where they need a passcode among themselves? Something doesn’t sit right with me simply because it is so difficult to even get to the island, and its a confined area…there are only so many people that are going to make it.

    In addition there are a lot of variables that go into that kind of plan because no one knows for sure if the plane is going to crash on the island.

    If they do introduce a third group, it won’t be something that we’ll need too much details about. It would be something we’d accept as a force that wants control of the island. Maybe part of the original force that Widmore fought against to protect.

  330. T says:

    [quote comment="328322"]Not that it has to do with the episode at all tonight, but I swear Locke looks l like he had surgery or some kind of face lift. He looks younger and more full.

    ;P[/quote]

    I was thinking the same thing. I think he looks buffer too. This could be signifying that he is now the leader.

    Also, there is a interesting similarity between John and Richard. There demeanor is very similar. Richard always seems to be the leader thou never taking that roll. John has that same silent strength.

    Maybe his younger look means he is getting younger. Maybe when Richard came to the island he was older too.

  331. sawyer says:

    why is ben so shocked to see locke alive he says the island has never done this before .. does he not know about christain shepard ?

  332. RGS says:

    We definitely need more on how Widmore got exiled. I mean that is just a weird turn of events. I am disappointed in the whole Rousseau explanation. I mean I don’t have any kids yet, and I’ve never witnessed a childbirth, but she delivers her own child…on a deserted island? On the one hand that makes her a tough SOB. Then on the other, she let’s Ben come into her tent with a cap gun, and march off with her child, the only person she knows on the island? Despite having a rifle right next to her bed?

    I guess it worked out for her in the end because she did reunite with Alex for the short time but sheesh, I’d like to think Ben wouldn’t have come out of that unscathed.

  333. dealer says:

    what the hell did ben say to alex?

  334. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="328243"]What WAS in the box that Ilana and co were trying to move?![/quote]

    * * * * *

    Ilana and several of the coach crowd from Ajira 316 are members of the new Dharma (not an acronym) initiative. The large metal case contains a new SONAR beacon (these people love the word SONAR, although they may actually be right this time.) to replace the one that had its circuits fried by the electromagnetic pulse when the Swan imploded.

    “What lies in the shadow of the statue?” The Temple, but only one certain days (one day?) of the year. I need a navigator here, but I think that day would vary with the latitude of the Island; so if it’s moving…, but never mind. The question is also a challenge with “The Temple” being the password and a statement of purpose.

    When the beacon is deployed, the new Dharma will be able to find the Island and send more people to take the Island away from the Others, they hope.

    That’s the war that’s coming.

    8) Jim

  335. JasonS says:

    [quote comment="328467"]Hank Vega said:
    Could Locke be the smoke monster now? The smoke monster didn’t appear until Locke was gone.

    ———————————-
    Good question. Also, when Ben thought that Smokie was going 2 come out of the jungle, Locke did.[/quote]

    —-
    Seems like a reasonable guess. If it’s possible that Locke and Christian are in the same state, some kind of manifestation of their soul, then you have more support. We’ve seen a lot of smoke references for Christian. He appeared out of nowhere in front of Michael before the boat blew up, he set off the “smoke alarm” in Jack’s office in LA, and we may have seen smokey in the background during Christian’s discussion with Sun/Lapidus.

    Also, being connected to smokey might have subconsciously lead Locke to the declivity beneath the temple wall. It was pretty weird that Locke knew to go under the temple. That statement seemed to even startle Ben a bit.

  336. LINS says:

    [quote comment="328522"]Just a thought here, but I can’t see Ben being so remorseful about shooting Des that he would make such a point of getting an apology back to him. We didn’t see the end of the Ben\Penny\Des scene, and I’m thinking Ben either does end up killing Penny, OR, given the two scenes last night where Ben showed a soft spot for kids, it might be more likely that he killed little Charlie, possible by accident. anyone feelin’ me on this?[/quote]

    I think he was trying to cover all his bases, in case Smokey was judging his every past sin…making it seem like he was sorry for what he had done, just in case? I think he probably felt like he should try to make up for anything he could on the way to see Smokey so maybe the island would think he was repentant?

  337. RGS says:

    [quote comment="328532"][quote comment="328463"]
    I don’t think they necessarily know they are working for Widmore, but it’s becoming clear that Widmore send them to “clear” the island. Widmore can only be back if everybody is dead. The idea of adding a third group of outsiders doesn’t make any sense at this point on the show.
    Still believe Illana was asking Frank for the password.
    [/quote]

    Ok, I get it now. It could be a group of Others who were exiled, and therefore they don’t know each other. Ok I’m feeling that idea. I’m still of course hoping they aren’t with Team Widmore.

  338. woManfromtallahassee says:

    We’ve seen a lot of smoke references for Christian. He appeared out of nowhere in front of Michael before the boat blew up, he set off the “smoke alarm” in Jack’s office in LA, and we may have seen smokey in the background during Christian’s discussion with Sun/Lapidus.

    ***************

    Is that true about the smoke alarms?! I don’t remember that at all, but it would be amazing to see it again.

  339. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="328289"]Ok. Not to bring up the ancient stuff again but I am OBSESSED and I don’t care….

    It looked to me like Ben seemed a little surprised when he fell down in there. He had never seen this room before. Also, maybe it’s obvious to everyone and I am the one thinking about this, but that seemed more like a tomb…not a temple. So in my opinion, behind that wall he was looking at is the tomb of someone, the vent Smokey came out was from behind there. Also, I think now smokey is whoever is in that tomb’s SHADOW.

    Only part I am confused on is the water that Ben let out the drain at the passageway at his house…hmmmm. Off to think some more![/quote]

    * * * * *

    I think Ben knows all about the Temple, but that he had never been down into that hole. “One simply does not go down there, m’dear.” *grin*

    It just occurred to me that the Monster can’t pass through water. Passing over water is a different question. Pulling up on the plug drains a communication tube down to…somewhere. This allows the human who the Monster recognizes to call it out to do its work. The drain closes automatically after a few seconds and a constant seep refills the bowl. Last thing I’d want is for the Monster to come visiting me in the middle of the night.

    8) Jim

  340. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="328304"]About this box full of guns theory : don’t you think guns are now forbidden in planes ???[/quote]

    * * * * *

    Ah, but not in the cargo hold. Personnally, I think they found them on Hydra.

    8) Jim

  341. JasonS says:

    [quote comment="328555"]We’ve seen a lot of smoke references for Christian. He appeared out of nowhere in front of Michael before the boat blew up, he set off the “smoke alarm” in Jack’s office in LA, and we may have seen smokey in the background during Christian’s discussion with Sun/Lapidus.

    ***************

    Is that true about the smoke alarms?! I don’t remember that at all, but it would be amazing to see it again.[/quote]

    —-

    Its in S04E10 – Something Nice Back Home.

  342. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="328339"][quote comment="328337"][quote comment="328334"][quote comment="328251"][quote comment="328243"]What WAS in the box that Ilana and co were trying to move?![/quote]
    lots and lots of guns![/quote]
    _______________________________
    And so this apparently answers the question from earlier this season – who was in the boat shooting at Sawyer, Juliet, etc while they were in a boat and flashing from time to time.[/quote]
    Right. Lapidus brought back the second boat to Hydra Island.

    Those 2 boats need to get back to The Big Island so the TT LOSTies can steal one and get shot at and Juliet in turn will injure someone chasing them.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Oops, my mistake. They only need one boat to return because there is already one on the big island.[/quote]

    * * * * *

    Let’s see…

    Total of three boats. Sun and Lapidus take number one. Ben and Locke take number two. Lapidus returns with number one.

    Ilana and crew take the metal box and load it on both boats (Huh?). They paddle up ot what was the beach camp, stopping for a few brews, and carry the box inland. While they’re gone, Locke and party come back to the beach camp and find the boats (and the Ajira bottle). Wouldn’t Ilana be surprised to see Locke dressed in field gear? Running gun battle ensues untils Locke and party shift out again.

    But where did they take the box?

    8) Jim

  343. steve says:

    I was thinking…

    What lies in the shadow of the statue.

    Literally, the shadow of the statue is smokey and what lies in smokey – Judgment !

  344. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="328389"][quote comment="328375"]

    We know Widmore was there for at least a few years after that, up until he gets exiled, probably around 1984 or 1987 at the latest (I say that because if Widmore says he’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, that means “20 years ago” is the mid-1980’s.) So, I think this means Widmore had nothing to do with orchestrating the Purge; he had already left.
    ***************
    Agree with your suppositions. I will take it a step further and say that Widmore had nothing to do with ORGANIZING the purge, but more to do with CAUSING the purge – in that he was likely funding DHARMA and perhaps changed the nature of their “research” so he could use the islands powers for money-making schemes.

    : ) P[/quote]

    I’m having time continuity issues again. Alex is about 5 years old on the swing, right b4 Ben goes to gloat to Widmore The Good. Alex was 17 years old (18 tops), at the time of her death in 2004. (Rousseau’s msg had been playing 17 years.)

    So 13 years from 2004 would make it 1991 when Widmore gets exiled. Not quite 20 years even loosely interpreted. Am I on the right track with that?[/quote]

    * * * * *

    It’s even worse, in one sense. Widmore wasn’t exiled until after the Others controlled the submarine. That’s after December 1992. But it gets better. Widmore is talking to Ben in 2008. So it’s sixteen years since exile. Maybe it feels like twenty.

    8) Jim

  345. RGS says:

    [quote comment="328569"][quote comment="328389"][quote comment="328375"]

    We know Widmore was there for at least a few years after that, up until he gets exiled, probably around 1984 or 1987 at the latest (I say that because if Widmore says he’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, that means “20 years ago” is the mid-1980’s.) So, I think this means Widmore had nothing to do with orchestrating the Purge; he had already left.
    ***************
    Agree with your suppositions. I will take it a step further and say that Widmore had nothing to do with ORGANIZING the purge, but more to do with CAUSING the purge – in that he was likely funding DHARMA and perhaps changed the nature of their “research” so he could use the islands powers for money-making schemes.

    : ) P[/quote]

    I’m having time continuity issues again. Alex is about 5 years old on the swing, right b4 Ben goes to gloat to Widmore The Good. Alex was 17 years old (18 tops), at the time of her death in 2004. (Rousseau’s msg had been playing 17 years.)

    So 13 years from 2004 would make it 1991 when Widmore gets exiled. Not quite 20 years even loosely interpreted. Am I on the right track with that?[/quote]

    * * * * *

    It’s even worse, in one sense. Widmore wasn’t exiled until after the Others controlled the submarine. That’s after December 1992. But it gets better. Widmore is talking to Ben in 2008. So it’s sixteen years since exile. Maybe it feels like twenty.

    8) Jim[/quote]

    Good points. Miles knew that Widmore had been searching for 20 years too though, and that was ’04.

  346. swizzle says:

    Illanna represents the DeGroots.

    She leads —– “Strike Force Ann Arbor”

  347. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328569"]
    It’s even worse, in one sense. Widmore wasn’t exiled until after the Others controlled the submarine. That’s after December 1992. But it gets better. Widmore is talking to Ben in 2008. So it’s sixteen years since exile. Maybe it feels like twenty.
    [/quote]

    Or, he spent several years in pre-exile on island(in the polar bear cages maybe) . He twenty years to get back, might have been back into POWER.

    : ) P

  348. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="328097"][quote comment="328092"][quote comment="328056"][quote comment="328051"][quote comment="328017"]
    They, in the 70’s, always knew they were time traveling. Sawyer, in the 70’s, is always 35 years old and has always experienced his first 35 years of life. Sawyer, in 2004 can’t remember the 70’s because he is only 34 years old and hasn’t been to the 70’s yet. If there is a Sawyer in 2010 he will remember it all because he will be 40 years old and will have experienced all of it. It sort of takes 4 demionsional thinking.[/quote]
    _________________________________
    I disagree. You didn’t meet yourself 5 minutes ago. However, if at some point in the future you are able to travel back in time to this day 5 minutes ago you could meet yourself. It didn’t happen that way the first time around.

    This is the problem I have with whatever happened, ALWAYS happened. It’s that we all want to time travel to the past and change things for the better. A story that doesn’t allow that crushes that dream. To a certain degree, I want to go back while retaining my current memory so I won’t make the mistakes I’ve made, so I can invest in Microsoft, and maybe improve the world along the way.[/quote]
    +++++++++
    I agree to disagree with you on this. We will find ut eventually, I hope.

  349. Hammer says:

    [quote comment=”328395[/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I am sure you all will correct me if I am wrong, but as for Whidmore having nothing to do with the purge as he had already left…
    The Others/Hostiles had already moved to Dharmaville when Whidmore was exhiled, so doesn’t that mean that the purge had already taken place?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    Yes, that is a good catch. If it turns out the Widmore funded Dharma in some way, then orchestrated the purge of his own folks to throw off Richard and the Others…then he is truly evil.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++++
    I took it as Widmore was leaving the island OFTEN not only because he has a baby with an ‘outsider’, but also was building an empire in the real world AND getting involved with DHARMA, helping build the Lamp Post, to exploit and take over the island. IMO, he was discovered as being involved with DHARMA sometime near the purge…may even have been why the purge happened. He was then banished and so far, the island won’t let him back. So now he has been trying to get other people there to do his bidding. His latest attempt is having folks follow the O6 back to island. His new crew know that there are several of them on 316, but don’t know each other until the pass code is asked. Frank isn’t part of the new crew…butt of the gun to the head.

  350. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328505"]
    Widmore very well could have trying to trick Ben, not sure on that…as old as Penny is (she is older than Alex) Widmore would have already been a dad when he ordered Ben to kill the baby and Danielle. [/quote]

    Penny had to have been a teenager when Alex was born. I would put her at mid 30’s in 2004, but even if she were late 20’s, she would have been at least 12 years older than Alex (at sixteen).

    : ) P

  351. LINS says:

    [quote comment="328564"]
    Let’s see…

    Total of three boats. Sun and Lapidus take number one. Ben and Locke take number two. Lapidus returns with number one.

    Ilana and crew take the metal box and load it on both boats (Huh?). They paddle up ot what was the beach camp, stopping for a few brews, and carry the box inland. While they’re gone, Locke and party come back to the beach camp and find the boats (and the Ajira bottle). Wouldn’t Ilana be surprised to see Locke dressed in field gear? Running gun battle ensues untils Locke and party shift out again.

    But where did they take the box?

    8) Jim[/quote]
    *********************
    I hope I deleted all the previous posts in this correctly, if not, sorry!

    So this happened before the old Locke left the island, correct? He was on the boat with Sawyer and Juliet when they were getting shot at by who we now can presume to be Ilana and co. I can’t remember how long it was after that until Locke turned the wheel and left, but the island was flashing through time still, right? Maybe that’s how Sun and Jin are able to be reunited? Who knows?

  352. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328566"]I was thinking…

    What lies in the shadow of the statue.

    Literally, the shadow of the statue is smokey and what lies in smokey – Judgment ![/quote]
    ____
    I was thinking more on those lines, but it can have multiple meanings….to some viewers, the obvious…to people like me it can also mean what you said. I am sure the actual answer will be something obvious.

  353. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="328527"]really good stuff from that LAtimes blog that merits discussion

    1. “Tonight, we fully expected to see the scoop on the temple, the monster and what happened to Penny, but who could have expected the revelation that Ilana and a few other passengers from the Ajira Airways flight were apparently Others all along (though of the exiled and ticked-off-about-it variety).

    The giveaway? Their code with one another: “What lies in the shadow of the statue?” The answer? We don’t know for sure yet. Though there are a few options. “Death” is my guess, but depending on the definition of “lies” it could also be “Ben.” How cutesy are the Others? Not very. I’m sticking with “Death.”

    2.
    Presumably that also clears up the question of whom the broken, four-toed statue depicts. It’s Anubis’ island, and Ben and Locke and even Widmore are merely visitors.

    Are Ilana and the rest of the crew REALLY exiled others?[/quote]
    ****************
    If they were don’t you think Ben would remember them or they would remember Ben? They seem to be younger than him…

  354. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328599"][quote comment="328527"]really good stuff from that LAtimes blog that merits discussion

    1. “Tonight, we fully expected to see the scoop on the temple, the monster and what happened to Penny, but who could have expected the revelation that Ilana and a few other passengers from the Ajira Airways flight were apparently Others all along (though of the exiled and ticked-off-about-it variety).

    The giveaway? Their code with one another: “What lies in the shadow of the statue?” The answer? We don’t know for sure yet. Though there are a few options. “Death” is my guess, but depending on the definition of “lies” it could also be “Ben.” How cutesy are the Others? Not very. I’m sticking with “Death.”

    2.
    Presumably that also clears up the question of whom the broken, four-toed statue depicts. It’s Anubis’ island, and Ben and Locke and even Widmore are merely visitors.

    Are Ilana and the rest of the crew REALLY exiled others?[/quote]
    ****************
    If they were don’t you think Ben would remember them or they would remember Ben? They seem to be younger than him…[/quote]
    ______

    They are the other “others.”

  355. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="328558"][quote comment="328304"]About this box full of guns theory : don’t you think guns are now forbidden in planes ???[/quote]

    * * * * *

    Ah, but not in the cargo hold. Personnally, I think they found them on Hydra.

    8) Jim[/quote]
    ***********
    i think the ammo was already on the island too. They seeme to be looking for something after the plane crashed…

  356. Frank says:

    What other “others”?

  357. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="328602"][quote comment="328558"][quote comment="328304"]About this box full of guns theory : don’t you think guns are now forbidden in planes ???[/quote]

    * * * * *

    Ah, but not in the cargo hold. Personnally, I think they found them on Hydra.

    8) Jim[/quote]
    ***********
    i think the ammo was already on the island too. They seeme to be looking for something after the plane crashed…[/quote]
    ______________________
    I think a conspiracy to have ‘agents’ onboard a plane that is headed for the island can include making sure a box full of guns makes it’s way into the cargo one way or another. Remember when Widmore had Sun detained at that one airport? Widmore has people everywhere. C’mon, you think he couldn’t arrange for the guns to be onboard? Please.

  358. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="328603"]What other “others”?[/quote]
    _________________________
    Is that like the other other white meat?

  359. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="328605"][quote comment="328602"][quote comment="328558"][quote comment="328304"]About this box full of guns theory : don’t you think guns are now forbidden in planes ???[/quote]

    * * * * *

    Ah, but not in the cargo hold. Personnally, I think they found them on Hydra.

    8) Jim[/quote]
    ***********
    i think the ammo was already on the island too. They seeme to be looking for something after the plane crashed…[/quote]
    ______________________
    I think a conspiracy to have ‘agents’ onboard a plane that is headed for the island can include making sure a box full of guns makes it’s way into the cargo one way or another. Remember when Widmore had Sun detained at that one airport? Widmore has people everywhere. C’mon, you think he couldn’t arrange for the guns to be onboard? Please.[/quote]
    ****************
    the fact that they can time travel, be judged by smokey, or get healed by the island…getting ammo on the plane would be childs play for this show…:)
    But imo someone knew there was ammo on the island and when the plane crashed they went to find it…maybe Sayid was taken hostage by llana because widmore he would go after ben…just a thought…also, maybe needed a code because they do not know each other but knew there were other agents on board to help wage the “war”…

  360. Frank says:

    [quote comment="328606"][quote comment="328603"]What other “others”?[/quote]
    _________________________
    Is that like the other other white meat?[/quote]

    ____

    They are pork people?

  361. Adapa1 says:

    I loved this episode. I am also impressed with the casting for Widmore.

    I’m still looking for a reason why Ben was rushing to be judged so much. Almost as if you have to pass smokie judgement in order to use so and so. If only we were shown what happens to little Ben in the temple if being there is the only thng he can’t remember?

  362. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="328610"]I loved this episode.

    I am also impressed with the casting for Widmore.

    I’m still looking for a reason why Ben was rushing to be judged so much. Almost as if you have to pass smokie judgement in order to use so and so. If only we were shown what happens to little Ben in the temple if being there is the only thng he can’t remember?[/quote]
    ____________________________
    Ben wants to be on the island. Might as well get the judgment thing out of the way right off the bat. Otherwise he’ll just be looking over his shoulder all the time.

    Little Ben remembers he doesn’t like his dad judging by the way he asked Charles, “Is my dad here?”. So I think the only thing he forgot is knowing Sayid and being shot by him.

  363. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="328609"][quote comment="328606"][quote comment="328603"]What other “others”?[/quote]
    _________________________
    Is that like the other other white meat?[/quote]

    ____

    They are pork people?[/quote]
    ___________
    Haven’t seen that Sonic commercial? It’s probably a local thing. Sorry.

  364. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328612"][quote comment="328610"]I loved this episode.

    I am also impressed with the casting for Widmore.

    I’m still looking for a reason why Ben was rushing to be judged so much. Almost as if you have to pass smokie judgement in order to use so and so. If only we were shown what happens to little Ben in the temple if being there is the only thng he can’t remember?[/quote]
    ____________________________
    Ben wants to be on the island. Might as well get the judgment thing out of the way right off the bat. Otherwise he’ll just be looking over his shoulder all the time.

    Little Ben remembers he doesn’t like his dad judging by the way he asked Charles, “Is my dad here?”. So I think the only thing he forgot is knowing Sayid and being shot by him.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    I didn’t think he was rushing to be judged at all. I think Locke rushed him more than anything. When he woke from his paddle-nap, IMO he was truly shocked to see John alive. He told the once gullible Locke about being judged and Locke took the reigns from there.

  365. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="328614"][quote comment="328612"][quote comment="328610"]I loved this episode.

    I am also impressed with the casting for Widmore.

    I’m still looking for a reason why Ben was rushing to be judged so much. Almost as if you have to pass smokie judgement in order to use so and so. If only we were shown what happens to little Ben in the temple if being there is the only thng he can’t remember?[/quote]
    ____________________________
    Ben wants to be on the island. Might as well get the judgment thing out of the way right off the bat. Otherwise he’ll just be looking over his shoulder all the time.

    Little Ben remembers he doesn’t like his dad judging by the way he asked Charles, “Is my dad here?”. So I think the only thing he forgot is knowing Sayid and being shot by him.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    I didn’t think he was rushing to be judged at all. I think Locke rushed him more than anything. When he woke from his paddle-nap, IMO he was truly shocked to see John alive. He told the once gullible Locke about being judged and Locke took the reigns from there.[/quote]
    __________________
    Good point. I agree.

  366. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328614"][quote comment="328612"][quote comment="328610"]I loved this episode.

    I am also impressed with the casting for Widmore.

    I’m still looking for a reason why Ben was rushing to be judged so much. Almost as if you have to pass smokie judgement in order to use so and so. If only we were shown what happens to little Ben in the temple if being there is the only thng he can’t remember?[/quote]
    ____________________________
    Ben wants to be on the island. Might as well get the judgment thing out of the way right off the bat. Otherwise he’ll just be looking over his shoulder all the time.

    Little Ben remembers he doesn’t like his dad judging by the way he asked Charles, “Is my dad here?”. So I think the only thing he forgot is knowing Sayid and being shot by him.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    I didn’t think he was rushing to be judged at all. I think Locke rushed him more than anything. When he woke from his paddle-nap, IMO he was truly shocked to see John alive. He told the once gullible Locke about being judged and Locke took the reigns from there.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    Adding to that, I think after unclogging the toilet and saying “I’ll be outside” was just a ploy. At least what he said was, does smokey speak English or Egyptian?

  367. sector7 says:

    [quote comment="328616"][quote comment="328614"][quote comment="328612"][quote comment="328610"]I loved this episode.

    I am also impressed with the casting for Widmore.

    I’m still looking for a reason why Ben was rushing to be judged so much. Almost as if you have to pass smokie judgement in order to use so and so. If only we were shown what happens to little Ben in the temple if being there is the only thng he can’t remember?[/quote]
    ____________________________
    Ben wants to be on the island. Might as well get the judgment thing out of the way right off the bat. Otherwise he’ll just be looking over his shoulder all the time.

    Little Ben remembers he doesn’t like his dad judging by the way he asked Charles, “Is my dad here?”. So I think the only thing he forgot is knowing Sayid and being shot by him.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    I didn’t think he was rushing to be judged at all. I think Locke rushed him more than anything. When he woke from his paddle-nap, IMO he was truly shocked to see John alive. He told the once gullible Locke about being judged and Locke took the reigns from there.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    Adding to that, I think after unclogging the toilet and saying “I’ll be outside” was just a ploy. At least what he said was, does smokey speak English or Egyptian?[/quote]
    ____________________________
    After seeing Smokey/Mean Bitch/Alex make Ben do a pants poop, I’d say English.

  368. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328564"][quote comment="328339"][quote comment="328337"][quote comment="328334"][quote comment="328251"][quote comment="328243"]What WAS in the box that Ilana and co were trying to move?![/quote]
    lots and lots of guns![/quote]
    _______________________________
    And so this apparently answers the question from earlier this season – who was in the boat shooting at Sawyer, Juliet, etc while they were in a boat and flashing from time to time.[/quote]
    Right. Lapidus brought back the second boat to Hydra Island.

    Those 2 boats need to get back to The Big Island so the TT LOSTies can steal one and get shot at and Juliet in turn will injure someone chasing them.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Oops, my mistake. They only need one boat to return because there is already one on the big island.[/quote]

    * * * * *

    Let’s see…

    Total of three boats. Sun and Lapidus take number one. Ben and Locke take number two. Lapidus returns with number one.

    Ilana and crew take the metal box and load it on both boats (Huh?). They paddle up ot what was the beach camp, stopping for a few brews, and carry the box inland. While they’re gone, Locke and party come back to the beach camp and find the boats (and the Ajira bottle). Wouldn’t Ilana be surprised to see Locke dressed in field gear? Running gun battle ensues untils Locke and party shift out again.

    But where did they take the box?

    8) Jim[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++++
    Been thinking about that more. When or TT losties stole the outrigger on TBI, there were 2 at beach camp, meaning Ilana and crew probably took the 2 along with Lapidus and the sonar/gun box. I like the sonar idea. The other outrigger would presumably still be docked where Ben and Locke left it.

  369. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328525"][quote comment="328522"]Just a thought here, but I can’t see Ben being so remorseful about shooting Des that he would make such a point of getting an apology back to him. We didn’t see the end of the Ben\Penny\Des scene, and I’m thinking Ben either does end up killing Penny, OR, given the two scenes last night where Ben showed a soft spot for kids, it might be more likely that he killed little Charlie, possible by accident. anyone feelin’ me on this?[/quote]
    ______

    IMO, they showed us exactly what they wanted us to see. I think he was just truly sorry and didn’t realize they had a child. That’s just me. I think the mystery is solved, but again….I may be wrong.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    I agree with Lar. I am not so sure Ben didn’t accomplish his mission.

  370. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328383"][quote comment="328266"]Wow, Michael Emerson is one heck of an actor!![/quote]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    He rocks! I can’t believe he has not won an Emmy for his role on Lost. There is no one else on TV that can touch him as an actor.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    I agree but IMO Dr. Walter Bishop is just as good.

  371. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328408"][quote comment="328366"]As for a couple of thoughts from some posts I’ve read…I don’t see how Widmore could’ve helped in building the Lamp Post. He’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, in his words, and if he built the Lamp Post then surely he would be able to find the Lamp Post and the Lamp Post tells you where the Island is, so…that theory is kaput. He obviously knows where Eloise Hawking is, since he sent Desmond there, but I think he must not know of the Lamp Post or that Hawking is connected to it. If he did, it would simply be illogical (he knows that Hawking is managing the Lamp Post but he can’t get back to the Island? No way!).[/quote]

    I think Widmore knows about the Lamp Post and has been using it to find the island, but I think he believes that he really can’t go back, that he would be breaking the rules. I wish we had seen more about his banishment to understand really why he was leaving…I thought it would be a bigger deal than just getting escorted to the sub.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    I think so too. Just because he knows about the Lamp Post doesn’t mean he knows how it works. That’s what Hawking is for. Maybe they had some kind of falling out and she won’t help him find the island because she knows he “broke the rules”.

    As others have suggested, I too hope there is going to be more to the whole banishment scene/explanation.

  372. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328554"][quote comment="328532"][quote comment="328463"]
    I don’t think they necessarily know they are working for Widmore, but it’s becoming clear that Widmore send them to “clear” the island. Widmore can only be back if everybody is dead. The idea of adding a third group of outsiders doesn’t make any sense at this point on the show.
    Still believe Illana was asking Frank for the password.
    [/quote]

    Ok, I get it now. It could be a group of Others who were exiled, and therefore they don’t know each other. Ok I’m feeling that idea. I’m still of course hoping they aren’t with Team Widmore.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    I guess if we see Abaddon recruiting them, we’ll have our answer. I do like JIG’s comment 336 and think there is something other than guns in that case.

  373. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328617"]
    After seeing Smokey/Mean Bitch/Alex make Ben do a pants poop, I’d say English.[/quote]
    Good point. She was hotter than ever.

  374. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="328113"][quote comment="328073"][quote comment="328067"]
    I haven’t thought about it like this, but I get it. If the ’77 losties had already lived in ’77 back when ’77 came around the first time (before time travel) then what were they thinking at that point and how come they don’t remember ’77 from the first time? They couldn’t have been in ’77 the first time around because they had not time traveled yet. It’s like this: you have to go through ’77 without the losties the first time around so the losties can get to 2007 and time travel back to ’77. How could they be in ’77 without time traveling there?[/quote]
    That’s a lot of 77’s but I see what you are saying. Why would Sayid shoot Lil Ben the first time around if he didn’t experience all the things Ben did to him, right?[/quote]
    ——–
    lost4ever so are you saying they arent in a time loop? I just cant get my mind around the whatever happened happened thing! because of what you said right there! why would he shoot him the first time around for no reason. he had to experience all that ben did to him for him to have a reason to try and kill him. so there is a time loop??? but why wouldnt they remember doing this before? being in the 70’s before[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    There is no second time around. Everything happened once, Sawyers group just live it in a different order.

  375. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="328288"]So Ilana had some bubbas, and the bubbas had some guns, and they all look like they were on an intended mission as part of the anticipated Ajira crash. Whose mission? Hawking, Widmore, Paik? Someone else? Oh yeah, Ilana had Sayid. Maybe Sayid wasn’t headed for Guam. Maybe she had Sayid because she planned to recruit him “in-place” – as a warrior and island guide – to help her and the bubba’s accomplish their mission.[/quote]
    +++++++
    Ilanas team work for Widmore. She had Sayid for killing the Econimist. One of Widmores crew.

    [quote comment="328390"]1. Rousseau meets Ben around 1988 (that’s when she came to the island and Alex was born, right?) but doesn’t remember him when she caught him in the jungle in 2004 (just like not remember meeting Jin) – did her memory get wiped out?
    [/quote]
    +++++++
    I think she does remember Ben. She takes him to Sayid and tells him he is one of the others. She has told Sayid the others whisper. Ben told her “if you hear whispers, run.”

    [quote comment="328566"]I was thinking…

    What lies in the shadow of the statue.

    Literally, the shadow of the statue is smokey and what lies in smokey – Judgment ![/quote]
    +++++++
    That is exactly where my thoughts went.

  376. Duke says:

    To those that think of me as arrogant or whatever other words were used last week I DO NOT CARE. I am not going anywhere so you can look forward to hearing from for the next year and a half.

    I like to play the role of devil’s advocate on hear until something is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. You can call me a man of science. I need more evidence to be convinced of things than some people do. If you don’t like it I am sorry for that but I think I bring up valid points whether you agree or not. Sometimes I can come across as a smartass but that is just me. I never intend any harm and have even started making the little symbols that people have informed me about to lightin my comments some so that people should know that I mean no harm. But just because you do not agree with my comments or the way they come across doesn’t mean they are wrong (although they might be). I like to use this blog because their are some smart insightful people on here that make me think about things in a different way. There aren’t any of my close friends who watch the show and are able to discuss it like the people who frequent this blog. Just to reiterate, I do not care if you think I am arrogant or mean or whatever just remember that everyone is on here because they LOVE the show and have a passion for understanding it. No two people are the same and we should all have a little more understanding of our differences and stop being so judgemental. Myself included.

  377. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328626"]

    [quote comment="328390"]1. Rousseau meets Ben around 1988 (that’s when she came to the island and Alex was born, right?) but doesn’t remember him when she caught him in the jungle in 2004 (just like not remember meeting Jin) – did her memory get wiped out?
    [/quote]
    +++++++
    I think she does remember Ben. She takes him to Sayid and tells him he is one of the others. She has told Sayid the others whisper. Ben told her “if you hear whispers, run.”
    [/quote]
    +++++++++++
    There was definitely some pieces missing in the episode. Ben getting caught in the net by Rosseaou, is one for example, maybe they will be in Ben’s next FB. Which should be his last.

    I am thinking more and more about the “rules”. Ben gave us possibly 2 examples of what “breaking” them are, apparently just after the purge when Widmore was banished in handcuffs.

    1. Leaving the island regularly.

    2. Having a daughter with an outsider.

    I am wondering how/if at all they relate to Ben saying Widmore “changed” the rules. There must be more rules, right?

  378. DocH says:

    [quote]
    About this box full of guns theory : don’t you think guns are now forbidden in planes ???[/quote]
    [quote]
    Ah, but not in the cargo hold. Personnally, I think they found them on Hydra.
    [/quote]
    True. Properly documented firearms may be shipped in approved containers on certain long haul carriers. Just one thing. NOT with ammo. So, unless Team Ilana planned to club folks with their rifles, they had to arrange for ammo somehow/somewhere. (ohhh. maybe they knew they needed extra paddles for the outrigger canoes.) And how the heck did Frank paddle that monster canoe through open seas all by his lonesome?

  379. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328630"]To those that think of me as arrogant or whatever other words were used last week I DO NOT CARE. I am not going anywhere so you can look forward to hearing from for the next year and a half.

    I like to play the role of devil’s advocate on hear until something is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. You can call me a man of science. I need more evidence to be convinced of things than some people do. If you don’t like it I am sorry for that but I think I bring up valid points whether you agree or not. Sometimes I can come across as a smartass but that is just me. I never intend any harm and have even started making the little symbols that people have informed me about to lightin my comments some so that people should know that I mean no harm. But just because you do not agree with my comments or the way they come across doesn’t mean they are wrong (although they might be). I like to use this blog because their are some smart insightful people on here that make me think about things in a different way. There aren’t any of my close friends who watch the show and are able to discuss it like the people who frequent this blog. Just to reiterate, I do not care if you think I am arrogant or mean or whatever just remember that everyone is on here because they LOVE the show and have a passion for understanding it. No two people are the same and we should all have a little more understanding of our differences and stop being so judgemental. Myself included.[/quote]
    Agreed. Please contribute. BTW, you forgot the :)

  380. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328637"][quote]
    About this box full of guns theory : don’t you think guns are now forbidden in planes ???[/quote]
    [quote]
    Ah, but not in the cargo hold. Personnally, I think they found them on Hydra.
    [/quote]
    True. Properly documented firearms may be shipped in approved containers on certain long haul carriers. Just one thing. NOT with ammo. So, unless Team Ilana planned to club folks with their rifles, they had to arrange for ammo somehow/somewhere. (ohhh. maybe they knew they needed extra paddles for the outrigger canoes.) And how the heck did Frank paddle that monster canoe through open seas all by his lonesome?[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Maybe Mikhail, Charlie, Greta or Bonnie helped Lapidus.:)

    We saw a gun locker in the Hydra surveillance room back in Season 3. I think Jack found it then found Kate and Sawyer in the bear cage. I am not sure if they were the same weapons Ilana and crew had. Not too familiar with weapon types. I think there was ammo in there as well.

  381. AustinTX says:

    Here’s a crazy theory.

    I think the island may be purgatory and is some type of gateway for both good and bad spirits.

    Faraday is probably jacob once he ‘dies’ later in life.

    just throwing it out there – the show does seem to have a christian undertone to it (if not blatent sometimes).

  382. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="328637"][quote]
    About this box full of guns theory : don’t you think guns are now forbidden in planes ???[/quote]
    [quote]
    Ah, but not in the cargo hold. Personnally, I think they found them on Hydra.
    [/quote]
    True. Properly documented firearms may be shipped in approved containers on certain long haul carriers. Just one thing. NOT with ammo. So, unless Team Ilana planned to club folks with their rifles, they had to arrange for ammo somehow/somewhere. (ohhh. maybe they knew they needed extra paddles for the outrigger canoes.) And how the heck did Frank paddle that monster canoe through open seas all by his lonesome?[/quote]
    +++++
    Frank big and strong, and bring Tarzan.

  383. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328609"][quote comment="328606"][quote comment="328603"]What other “others”?[/quote]
    _________________________
    Is that like the other other white meat?[/quote]

    ____

    They are pork people?[/quote]
    _______

    It was a joke. I Remember when Sawyer and them found the boats in the epsiode “the Little Prince?” He said “Who came in these? Other Others?”

  384. Flyboy says:

    Lies, Lies, and more Lies. I stand by my comment 100 from before this episode aired. Ben is a master manipulator and liar, he sprinkles just enough truth to make it believable. Ben knows that the smoke monster can judge you but he had no intention of going to be judged. He was planning on killing Locke as confirmed by Alex, who I think was just the smoke monster pretending to be Alex, at the end of the show.

    I have only read up to comment 281 so I apologize if I am repeating what someone has already said.

    * Ben is soft on kids. I think it fits with his background perfectly. He sees kids as innocent victims. He sees himself as an innocent victim when he was a kid so he can relate.

    * At the beginning of the ep. Ben asks to help Ilana and friends move the crate. At the end of the show it is confirmed that Ilana and friends have a mission with a box full of ammo. This has Widmore written all over it, from his warning of the coming war to the fact that lots of weapons and people who know how to use them is the same tactic he used before with the ferry (keamy, etc.) folks.

    * Ben taking the picture of him and Alex from the office is purely to cover his own butt in case Caesar finds it. Remember he just finished lying to Caesar about not remembering Lock from the plane so he puts the seeds of doubt that Locke might be from the island. It certainly would not bode well for Ben if Caesar were to find a picture of him and Alex in Ben’s office.

    * Ben only spares Danielle’s life after he finds out she has a baby (remember the whole soft for ‘innocent’ kids thing!). He even confirms this later when he tells Widmore that he never told him that she had a kid. Ben then tells Widmore to kill the baby himself if he claims that Jacob wanted it done. He then sprinkles more truth to Danielle about running the other way from the whispers so she will not go looking for Alex.

    * Ben kills Caesar because he does not need more problems along his manipulation trip to the big island. Locke told Caesar to take one of the boats and follow them if he wants. Remember, all along he is just lying and manipulating looking for his weasel opportunity to kill Locke, he has no intentions of going to be judged by smokey. When Caesar starts to expose Ben’s lies by asking him why he is going with Locke then Ben springs to action. Obviously the island did not tell Ben to kill Caesar, or attempt to kill Desmond for that matter along his way to shoot Penny.

    * Ben has a few pieces of the puzzle, but I do not believe that he sees the big picture. He can’t see the forrest for the trees. He is shifty, constantly changing his plan as necessary to manipulate and achieve HIS goals, NOT the ISLAND’S goals or Jacob’s for that matter. He is flying by the seat of his pants and clearly just wants to maintain control at all costs. That is precisely why his plan is constantly changing. Locke to Ben: “You just make friends everywhere you go…” (comment as to why he was beat up on the plane, why he was hit by an oar by Sun, etc.). Ben back to Locke: “friends can be more dangerous than enemies” …. True, because friends will eventually find out the truth and expose you for what you are… a manipulating liar.

    * Ben to Locke: “I shot Caesar because it was his gun and he was going to shoot you, consider that payback for killing you”. More BS! He needs Locke alive still because he doesn’t know what to do next. Just like when Locke was about to hang himself. Remember the excuse he gave Locke for why he tried to prevent him from killing himself: “You had critical info that would have died with you forever”. Same thing this time. He will spare Locke long enough till Locke will slip and tell him what to do next then he was planning on killing him again! Only this time Locke is purposefully vague with Ben because he is totally on to him!

    * IMO Widmore is clearly bad also. He is selfish and exploiting the situation just like Ben only for different reasons. Charles has a double life off the island where he has had a child with a woman off the island and he has obviously built a financial empire based on his island exploits. Ben, on the other hand, just wants control of the island because he is power hungry and thinks he is special. However, I believe that he is quickly seeing that he is not special at all…. Locke is clearly showing him that, and so is smokey.

    * Locke calls Ben out on being judged for ‘breaking the rules’ and quickly corrects Ben and says nope… you are being judged for killing your daughter. And it is clear that Ben does not believe he killed his daughter. He blames Widmore for that and his sole purpose for leaving the island was for revenge by killing Penny. I don’t believe his repent story to smokey and Alex. Clearly Alex has informed Ben that if he does not follow everything Locke says she will hunt him down and kill him. Even she does really believe him. By the way, I think Alex is just a manifestation of smokey. The rules probably require a second chance before you face your fate. Remember that Eko had the same experience with smokey the first time and then later Yemi appeared to him when he was to face his fate and die for not repenting. Yemi made a comment to Ecko: “you keep referring to me as your brother”… can you say smokey manifestation?

    * Twice Ben asks John smugly: “do you dissaprove of that?” in reference to things Ben did when he was a leader. One was at the office when Locke said that it seemed too ‘corporate’ for Ben to be leading from behind a desk, and the second time when John questions Ben on why they moved to the barracks after purging Dharma. Both times John seemed to think that those things would not be something the island or jacob wanted. Ben to Locke: “you don’t know what the island wants”. Locke back to Ben “are you sure about that Ben?”. Love it!!!!!!!!!!! Very interesting since Ben told Locke: “Jacob doesn’t like technology like you Locke” before they entered Jacob’s cabin. Even Ben realizes that Locke has a much deeper connection and is far more special than he.

    * When Sun shows Ben the picture of ’77 Ben acts surprised that they were in Dharma back then. I call bigtime BS on this. More manipulation by Ben. He clearly remembers that. The first thing he told Charles when he woke up after being healed was that he did not want to go back to hid Dad. I think he remembers everything EXCEPT Sayid shooting him.

    * Ben says “Dead is Dead” to Sun and that he is shocked that Locke is alive. He tells her that even on this magical island that can heal he has never seen anything like this. He evens says “Frankly Locke scares the hell out of me”. All this after telling Locke that he knew this would happen. BS and more BS. More of the usual from Ben. Charlie says he is dead but ‘here I am’ to Hurley. Alex appears alive along with Yemi and Locke after they were dead. Obviously there is something here. Maybe they are the whisperers who are stuck between life and death? I have some other ideas on this as well if anyone cares.

    * Even at the end when Ben is facing Alex he seems to cringe and cower for what he did while acting like he is sorry and that he is ashamed and then the second he realizes she is not there anymore he changes completely and appears to not have anymore remorse, not sad, just moves on….WEIRD! Does not appear to be someone who is genuinely sorry for what he has done. Maybe I am wrong and Ben will change his ways and be spared but I am certainly not holding my breath.

    Sorry for the long winded post but I have to go out of town and I wanted to get it out there…. lol
    Great comments so far. Love some of the theories on this board.

  385. Rita says:

    I was thinking that Ben really doesn’t know what Jacob wants and has been surviving (and fooling everyone) by his wits. Ben was being sarcastic to John when he asked him “when did you start knowing…”, but I feel that it was nevertheless a real question – just delivered in Ben’s arrogant manner. Locke is revealing Ben’s lack of REAL knowledge – questioning why did they move into Dharmaville, asking Ben if he is “sure about that” when told that he doesn’t have the slightest idea what the island wants”. Ben is being found out.

    I am thinking that perhaps this is what Widmore meant when he said that Ben “tricked him” into leaving the island. Could be that Ben TOLD him that Jacob wanted him banished – for some flimsy sounding reasons. Since then, Widmore discovered that Ben was NOT really “in the know” with Jacob, so he been trying to come back.

    So then, I’m thinking that Charles (and maybe others as well) have had their own Smokey Meetings, where they were told to toe the line “or else” – that would explain Charles COMPLETE demeanor change when told that “Jacob wants this…”. So, if Ben said “Jacob said you are to be banished”, Charles would not DARE to disobey.

    OK. Let the debunking begin :)

  386. JZ says:

    [quote comment="328643"]Here’s a crazy theory.

    I think the island may be purgatory and is some type of gateway for both good and bad spirits.

    Faraday is probably jacob once he ‘dies’ later in life.

    just throwing it out there – the show does seem to have a christian undertone to it (if not blatent sometimes).[/quote]

    ____________________________________

    i don’t know why but i love the idea that faraday may be jacob (i’ve been a really big fan of faraday’s character). he totally manipulates the idea for the Losties to believe that whatever happened, happened…thus causing them to try and stick to the story that they already know will happen.

    also, faraday is really really smart and with the exception of alpert and widmore we know they have been apart of the past, present and future of the island.

    while all this said, i can’t totally be convinced. clearly jacob is an entity we can’t really understand just yet. yet being the keyword.

    p.s. i love everyone else’s ideas, i have some as well but don’t have the best way to explain so i just read…i’ll post more one day :)

  387. Adapa1 says:

    [quote comment="328655"]Lies, Lies, and more Lies. ………

    ****
    Thank you. Everything you just said was golden.

    So If he wasn’t rushing to be judged( I’m with you on this) where was he going when Sun hit him in the head?

  388. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328661"][quote comment="328655"]Lies, Lies, and more Lies. ………

    ****
    Thank you.

    Everything you just said was golden.

    So If he wasn’t rushing to be judged( I’m with you on this) where was he going when Sun hit him in the head?[/quote]
    _____

    I think he was rushing to do something!

  389. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="328605"][quote comment="328602"][quote comment="328558"][quote comment="328304"]About this box full of guns theory : don’t you think guns are now forbidden in planes ???[/quote]

    * * * * *

    Ah, but not in the cargo hold. Personnally, I think they found them on Hydra.

    8) Jim[/quote]
    ***********
    i think the ammo was already on the island too. They seeme to be looking for something after the plane crashed…[/quote]
    ______________________
    I think a conspiracy to have ‘agents’ onboard a plane that is headed for the island can include making sure a box full of guns makes it’s way into the cargo one way or another. Remember when Widmore had Sun detained at that one airport? Widmore has people everywhere. C’mon, you think he couldn’t arrange for the guns to be onboard? Please.[/quote]

    * * * * *

    Yeah, That way you get to pick the weapons you want and have your people train with them. Every rifle is NOT the same.

    8) Jim

  390. Rita says:

    [quote comment="328661"][quote comment="328655"]Lies, Lies, and more Lies. ………

    ****
    Thank you.

    Everything you just said was golden.

    So If he wasn’t rushing to be judged( I’m with you on this) where was he going when Sun hit him in the head?[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    So. If Smokey is all about judgement, why was Ben never judged BEFORE now? When Ben summoned Smokey to get Keamy and co., why would it ONLY go after them and skip Ben (especially if the judgement was all about Alex)? It cant’ be that Ben was READY to be judged NOW (who is ever ready?) because Smokey has gone after plenty of people who would not have thought of themselves as READY.

  391. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328666"][quote comment="328661"][quote comment="328655"]Lies, Lies, and more Lies. ………

    ****
    Thank you.

    Everything you just said was golden.

    So If he wasn’t rushing to be judged( I’m with you on this) where was he going when Sun hit him in the head?[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    So. If Smokey is all about judgement, why was Ben never judged BEFORE now? When Ben summoned Smokey to get Keamy and co., why would it ONLY go after them and skip Ben (especially if the judgement was all about Alex)? It cant’ be that Ben was READY to be judged NOW (who is ever ready?) because Smokey has gone after plenty of people who would not have thought of themselves as READY.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    I think we’ve been told before that Smokey protects the island. It seems he has more than one job. Aslo judging can happen more than once. Eko was judged and left alone…likely because the island wasn’t done with him yet. Then when the island WAS done, he was judged again and chose not to repent.

    The island was probablly done with Ben, but since he repented…he was spared until he messes up again.

  392. JZ says:

    [quote comment="328668"][quote comment="328666"][quote comment="328661"][quote comment="328655"]Lies, Lies, and more Lies. ………

    ****
    Thank you.

    Everything you just said was golden.

    So If he wasn’t rushing to be judged( I’m with you on this) where was he going when Sun hit him in the head?[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    So. If Smokey is all about judgement, why was Ben never judged BEFORE now? When Ben summoned Smokey to get Keamy and co., why would it ONLY go after them and skip Ben (especially if the judgement was all about Alex)? It cant’ be that Ben was READY to be judged NOW (who is ever ready?) because Smokey has gone after plenty of people who would not have thought of themselves as READY.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    I think we’ve been told before that Smokey protects the island. It seems he has more than one job. Aslo judging can happen more than once. Eko was judged and left alone…likely because the island wasn’t done with him yet. Then when the island WAS done, he was judged again and chose not to repent.

    The island was probablly done with Ben, but since he repented…he was spared until he messes up again.[/quote]

    ++++++++++

    i was about to reply to rita’s post but hammer beat me to it. and i agree with hammer, but one question remains…why was one of rousseaus men taken? They didn’t seem to be an apparent threat right off the bat and i don’t think we’ve seen enough of their story to know that they broke a rule….

    thoughts?

  393. Rita says:

    [quote comment="328669"][quote comment="328668"][quote comment="328666"][quote comment="328661"][quote comment="328655"]Lies, Lies, and more Lies. ………

    ****
    Thank you.

    Everything you just said was golden.

    So If he wasn’t rushing to be judged( I’m with you on this) where was he going when Sun hit him in the head?[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    So. If Smokey is all about judgement, why was Ben never judged BEFORE now? When Ben summoned Smokey to get Keamy and co., why would it ONLY go after them and skip Ben (especially if the judgement was all about Alex)? It cant’ be that Ben was READY to be judged NOW (who is ever ready?) because Smokey has gone after plenty of people who would not have thought of themselves as READY.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    I think we’ve been told before that Smokey protects the island. It seems he has more than one job. Aslo judging can happen more than once. Eko was judged and left alone…likely because the island wasn’t done with him yet. Then when the island WAS done, he was judged again and chose not to repent.

    The island was probablly done with Ben, but since he repented…he was spared until he messes up again.[/quote]

    ++++++++++

    i was about to reply to rita’s post but hammer beat me to it. and i agree with hammer, but one question remains…why was one of rousseaus men taken? They didn’t seem to be an apparent threat right off the bat and i don’t think we’ve seen enough of their story to know that they broke a rule….

    thoughts?[/quote]
    ___________________________________
    exactly

  394. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328669"][quote comment="328668"][quote comment="328666"][quote comment="328661"][quote comment="328655"]Lies, Lies, and more Lies. ………

    ****
    Thank you.

    Everything you just said was golden.

    So If he wasn’t rushing to be judged( I’m with you on this) where was he going when Sun hit him in the head?[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    So. If Smokey is all about judgement, why was Ben never judged BEFORE now? When Ben summoned Smokey to get Keamy and co., why would it ONLY go after them and skip Ben (especially if the judgement was all about Alex)? It cant’ be that Ben was READY to be judged NOW (who is ever ready?) because Smokey has gone after plenty of people who would not have thought of themselves as READY.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    I think we’ve been told before that Smokey protects the island. It seems he has more than one job. Aslo judging can happen more than once. Eko was judged and left alone…likely because the island wasn’t done with him yet. Then when the island WAS done, he was judged again and chose not to repent.

    The island was probablly done with Ben, but since he repented…he was spared until he messes up again.[/quote]

    ++++++++++

    i was about to reply to rita’s post but hammer beat me to it. and i agree with hammer, but one question remains…why was one of rousseaus men taken? They didn’t seem to be an apparent threat right off the bat and i don’t think we’ve seen enough of their story to know that they broke a rule….

    thoughts?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++=
    Smokey is def. mysterious in why he kills. The first pilot was just sitting in his capt’s chair doing nothing…Keamy’s group managed to get away too. He dragged Locke at one point but let go…why?

  395. Rita says:

    [quote comment="328670"][quote comment="328669"][quote comment="328668"][quote comment="328666"][quote comment="328661"][quote comment="328655"]Lies, Lies, and more Lies. ………

    ****
    Thank you.

    Everything you just said was golden.

    So If he wasn’t rushing to be judged( I’m with you on this) where was he going when Sun hit him in the head?[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    So. If Smokey is all about judgement, why was Ben never judged BEFORE now? When Ben summoned Smokey to get Keamy and co., why would it ONLY go after them and skip Ben (especially if the judgement was all about Alex)? It cant’ be that Ben was READY to be judged NOW (who is ever ready?) because Smokey has gone after plenty of people who would not have thought of themselves as READY.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    I think we’ve been told before that Smokey protects the island. It seems he has more than one job. Aslo judging can happen more than once. Eko was judged and left alone…likely because the island wasn’t done with him yet. Then when the island WAS done, he was judged again and chose not to repent.

    The island was probablly done with Ben, but since he repented…he was spared until he messes up again.[/quote]

    ++++++++++

    i was about to reply to rita’s post but hammer beat me to it. and i agree with hammer, but one question remains…why was one of rousseaus men taken? They didn’t seem to be an apparent threat right off the bat and i don’t think we’ve seen enough of their story to know that they broke a rule….

    thoughts?[/quote]
    ___________________________________
    exactly[/quote]
    I mean, SOME people (the 815 pilot, Montand, others) got SMOKIED right off – kill first, ask questions later. However, I do agree that some people likely have had their own Smokey sessions (see my post 387) which enables Smokey to stay in control because no one DARES to disobey Smokey :)

  396. JZ says:

    One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention…please help!

    When Locke and Ben make it to the Barracks to Ben could summon the monster (Sun and Lapidus are there)…Didn’t anyone notice the orientation/registrations sign hanging there?!?!

    I know the last time we saw the Barracks was when Keamey and his man destroyed it, but there were def none of those signs at the point in time….

    I’m thinking Sun, Lapidus, Ben and Locke are in an alternate TT while the other Losties went to 1977. Maybe the others never took over the Barracks after the purge (kind of like how Locke implied to Ben that maybe Jacob/island didn’t want that to happen)…maybe these four are meant to finish out the duties of ’77 Losties….

    thoughts?

  397. JZ says:

    [quote comment="328672"][quote comment="328670"][quote comment="328669"][quote comment="328668"][quote comment="328666"][quote comment="328661"][quote comment="328655"]Lies, Lies, and more Lies. ………

    ****
    Thank you.

    Everything you just said was golden.

    So If he wasn’t rushing to be judged( I’m with you on this) where was he going when Sun hit him in the head?[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    So. If Smokey is all about judgement, why was Ben never judged BEFORE now? When Ben summoned Smokey to get Keamy and co., why would it ONLY go after them and skip Ben (especially if the judgement was all about Alex)? It cant’ be that Ben was READY to be judged NOW (who is ever ready?) because Smokey has gone after plenty of people who would not have thought of themselves as READY.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    I think we’ve been told before that Smokey protects the island. It seems he has more than one job. Aslo judging can happen more than once. Eko was judged and left alone…likely because the island wasn’t done with him yet. Then when the island WAS done, he was judged again and chose not to repent.

    The island was probablly done with Ben, but since he repented…he was spared until he messes up again.[/quote]

    ++++++++++

    i was about to reply to rita’s post but hammer beat me to it. and i agree with hammer, but one question remains…why was one of rousseaus men taken? They didn’t seem to be an apparent threat right off the bat and i don’t think we’ve seen enough of their story to know that they broke a rule….

    thoughts?[/quote]
    ___________________________________
    exactly[/quote]
    I mean, SOME people (the 815 pilot, Montand, others) got SMOKIED right off – kill first, ask questions later. However, I do agree that some people likely have had their own Smokey sessions (see my post 387) which enables Smokey to stay in control because no one DARES to disobey Smokey :)[/quote]

    +++++++++++++

    this is true too…maybe he was acting as the security and then the questions later are the judgement session….i dig it :)

  398. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328672"][quote comment="328670"][quote comment="328669"][quote comment="328668"][quote comment="328666"][quote comment="328661"][quote comment="328655"]___________________________________
    exactly[/quote]
    I mean, SOME people (the 815 pilot, Montand, others) got SMOKIED right off – kill first, ask questions later. However, I do agree that some people likely have had their own Smokey sessions (see my post 387) which enables Smokey to stay in control because no one DARES to disobey Smokey :)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    Hmmmm….confounding. I guess we’ll have to wait to get more info on Smokey’s motives.

  399. AustinTX says:

    smokey might be a combination of all the ‘bad’ people who have passed on the island and jacob could be a combination of all the ‘good’ people that have passed away on the island.

    it would all be in the Eye of The Beholder as to what they see in the smoke or the cabin.

  400. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="328656"]I was thinking that Ben really doesn’t know what Jacob wants and has been surviving (and fooling everyone) by his wits. Ben was being sarcastic to John when he asked him “when did you start knowing…”, but I feel that it was nevertheless a real question – just delivered in Ben’s arrogant manner. Locke is revealing Ben’s lack of REAL knowledge – questioning why did they move into Dharmaville, asking Ben if he is “sure about that” when told that he doesn’t have the slightest idea what the island wants”. Ben is being found out.

    I am thinking that perhaps this is what Widmore meant when he said that Ben “tricked him” into leaving the island. Could be that Ben TOLD him that Jacob wanted him banished – for some flimsy sounding reasons. Since then, Widmore discovered that Ben was NOT really “in the know” with Jacob, so he been trying to come back.

    So then, I’m thinking that Charles (and maybe others as well) have had their own Smokey Meetings, where they were told to toe the line “or else” – that would explain Charles COMPLETE demeanor change when told that “Jacob wants this…”. So, if Ben said “Jacob said you are to be banished”, Charles would not DARE to disobey.

    OK. Let the debunking begin :)[/quote]

    * * * * *

    Was Widmore shackled only for the sub ride?

    8) Jim

  401. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328656"]I was thinking that Ben really doesn’t know what Jacob wants and has been surviving (and fooling everyone) by his wits….

    ….OK. Let the debunking begin :)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Okay…the scene where we first ‘saw’ jacob…Ben is talking to him…makes Jacob angry…cabin shakes, etc. To me, Jacob WAS talking to Ben. Ben is ‘shocked’ to find out Locke heard the words ‘help me’ directed at Locke.

    I think Ben saying Locke has no idea what the island wants was another ‘test’ to see if Locke is the next chosen one.

  402. jasmine says:

    the whole concept of smokey really bothers me because it doesn’t consistently do the same thing. didnt it kill a pilot of the first flight 847, ben used it to kill the guys that killed his daughter, it “judged” ben and eko, juliet and kate hid from it at one point,etc. smokey does seem to be able to manifest itself as different things or people. the example of alex, eko’s brother, maybe even the horse that kate saw in the first season, maybe as walt, etc. it just makes it hard to figure out what is really happening sometimes and what is smokey. if christian is smokey manifesting itself possibly, couldn’t what we see as locke also be a manifestation of smokey? after all, ben was only “judged” by smokey after “locke” left for a moment and when “locke” returned smokey “left”.

  403. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328681"]the whole concept of smokey really bothers me because it doesn’t consistently do the same thing. didnt it kill a pilot of the first flight 847, ben used it to kill the guys that killed his daughter, it “judged” ben and eko, juliet and kate hid from it at one point,etc. smokey does seem to be able to manifest itself as different things or people. the example of alex, eko’s brother, maybe even the horse that kate saw in the first season, maybe as walt, etc. it just makes it hard to figure out what is really happening sometimes and what is smokey. if christian is smokey manifesting itself possibly, couldn’t what we see as locke also be a manifestation of smokey?

    after all, ben was only “judged” by smokey after “locke” left for a moment and when “locke” returned smokey “left”.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++=
    Well, I guess you could look at it like this…If Smokey=security…then everything he does is a decision that best fits the security of the island. If that is his motivation and WE don’t know what the island needs to happen but he does…then maybe his actions are actually consistent.

  404. JZ says:

    [quote comment="328673"]One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention…please help!

    When Locke and Ben make it to the Barracks to Ben could summon the monster (Sun and Lapidus are there)…Didn’t anyone notice the orientation/registrations sign hanging there?!?!

    I know the last time we saw the Barracks was when Keamey and his man destroyed it, but there were def none of those signs at the point in time….

    I’m thinking Sun, Lapidus, Ben and Locke are in an alternate TT while the other Losties went to 1977. Maybe the others never took over the Barracks after the purge (kind of like how Locke implied to Ben that maybe Jacob/island didn’t want that to happen)…maybe these four are meant to finish out the duties of ’77 Losties….

    thoughts?[/quote]

    ++++++++++

    i post this just a short bit ago and re-watched this scene to gain some more insight…

    it’s been slightly debunked because when ben walks into his house the risk game is still on the table that hurley and whoever was playing right before keamey’s men got there plus alex’s room was there and all of ben’s stuff….

    BUT!!!! the “Processing sign is still hanging once this scene opens….

    still thoughts from anyone?

  405. Hammer says:

    I was just thinking about how I don’t think Caesar was a Widmore plant. If he was, he wouldn’t have had to go find a gun, he would have known about the case and the secret code word to get ‘his’ gun from the case…no?

    I think he was just acting like Jack did, trying to take charge and find out what the heck is happeneing on this goofy island…only he stumbled across the Others much quicker and when they (Ben) had whole lot less patience for someone trying to ‘take charge’.

  406. justathought says:

    I am new here, and not really into the lost theory stuff, so to be honest i didnt read all above. With that said, has it occured to anyone that Elloise Hawking IS Penny’s mother, and that in fact makes Dan Faraday her half brother? Just a though

  407. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328684"][quote comment="328673"]One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention…please help!

    When Locke and Ben make it to the Barracks to Ben could summon the monster (Sun and Lapidus are there)…Didn’t anyone notice the orientation/registrations sign hanging there?!?!

    I know the last time we saw the Barracks was when Keamey and his man destroyed it, but there were def none of those signs at the point in time….

    I’m thinking Sun, Lapidus, Ben and Locke are in an alternate TT while the other Losties went to 1977. Maybe the others never took over the Barracks after the purge (kind of like how Locke implied to Ben that maybe Jacob/island didn’t want that to happen)…maybe these four are meant to finish out the duties of ’77 Losties….

    thoughts?[/quote]

    ++++++++++

    i post this just a short bit ago and re-watched this scene to gain some more insight…

    it’s been slightly debunked because when ben walks into his house the risk game is still on the table that hurley and whoever was playing right before keamey’s men got there plus alex’s room was there and all of ben’s stuff….

    BUT!!!! the “Processing sign is still hanging once this scene opens….

    still thoughts from anyone?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++=
    Still processing this in my head…is the sign indoors or outside?

  408. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328686"]I am new here, and not really into the lost theory stuff, so to be honest i didnt read all above. With that said, has it occured to anyone that Elloise Hawking IS Penny’s mother, and that in fact makes Dan Faraday her half brother? Just a though[/quote]
    +++++++++++++=
    Yep, it has occured to anyone. :)

    If THAT got you to check out this blog…you should get to reading, ’cause there is tons more interesting stuff than that going on here.

  409. JZ says:

    [quote comment="328687"][quote comment="328684"][quote comment="328673"]One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention…please help!

    When Locke and Ben make it to the Barracks to Ben could summon the monster (Sun and Lapidus are there)…Didn’t anyone notice the orientation/registrations sign hanging there?!?!

    I know the last time we saw the Barracks was when Keamey and his man destroyed it, but there were def none of those signs at the point in time….

    I’m thinking Sun, Lapidus, Ben and Locke are in an alternate TT while the other Losties went to 1977. Maybe the others never took over the Barracks after the purge (kind of like how Locke implied to Ben that maybe Jacob/island didn’t want that to happen)…maybe these four are meant to finish out the duties of ’77 Losties….

    thoughts?[/quote]

    ++++++++++

    i post this just a short bit ago and re-watched this scene to gain some more insight…

    it’s been slightly debunked because when ben walks into his house the risk game is still on the table that hurley and whoever was playing right before keamey’s men got there plus alex’s room was there and all of ben’s stuff….

    BUT!!!! the “Processing sign is still hanging once this scene opens….

    still thoughts from anyone?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++=
    Still processing this in my head…is the sign indoors or outside?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    it’s swinging on the outside of one of the barracks as soon as this scene opens…and the environment looks as if it was ambushed…seems more graphic than just the gassing of the original purge…i think dharma folk were purged but maybe in a different way and then the others did not take over…maybe because now LOCKE is the leader???

  410. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328690"][quote comment="328687"][quote comment="328684"][quote comment="328673"]One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention…please help!

    When Locke and Ben make it to the Barracks to Ben could summon the monster (Sun and Lapidus are there)…Didn’t anyone notice the orientation/registrations sign hanging there?!?!

    I know the last time we saw the Barracks was when Keamey and his man destroyed it, but there were def none of those signs at the point in time….

    I’m thinking Sun, Lapidus, Ben and Locke are in an alternate TT while the other Losties went to 1977. Maybe the others never took over the Barracks after the purge (kind of like how Locke implied to Ben that maybe Jacob/island didn’t want that to happen)…maybe these four are meant to finish out the duties of ’77 Losties….

    thoughts?[/quote]

    ++++++++++

    i post this just a short bit ago and re-watched this scene to gain some more insight…

    it’s been slightly debunked because when ben walks into his house the risk game is still on the table that hurley and whoever was playing right before keamey’s men got there plus alex’s room was there and all of ben’s stuff….

    BUT!!!! the “Processing sign is still hanging once this scene opens….

    still thoughts from anyone?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++=
    Still processing this in my head…is the sign indoors or outside?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    it’s swinging on the outside of one of the barracks as soon as this scene opens…and the environment looks as if it was ambushed…seems more graphic than just the gassing of the original purge…i think dharma folk were purged but maybe in a different way and then the others did not take over…maybe because now LOCKE is the leader???[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    Ahh, I’m following ya. Locke mentioned that he didn’t think it seemed like the island would want the Others to live in Dharmaville. Jacob doesn’t like technology. Course correction to get rid of DHARAMITES in a different way but same result.

    I can buy it.

  411. steve says:

    [quote comment="328597"][quote comment="328566"]I was thinking…

    What lies in the shadow of the statue.

    Literally, the shadow of the statue is smokey and what lies in smokey – Judgment ![/quote]
    ____
    I was thinking more on those lines, but it can have multiple meanings….to some viewers, the obvious…to people like me it can also mean what you said. I am sure the actual answer will be something obvious.[/quote]

    My first thaught was the answer could be “Benjamin Linus”… He lies everwhere all the time. While funny , perhaps not.

  412. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328686"]I am new here, and not really into the lost theory stuff, so to be honest i didnt read all above. With that said, has it occured to anyone that Elloise Hawking IS Penny’s mother, and that in fact makes Dan Faraday her half brother? Just a though[/quote]

    Hi, JaT,

    Not going to fault you, because every one of us has been where you are at some point… SO excited about your own theory that you are off to check the web and see if someone else has thought of it.

    So excited, that you couldn’t possibly read all the posts, you just have to put your theory out there.

    Yeah, we were all there once, so not gonna stomp and holler at you for not “following the blog rules” but fair warning… your theories will gain a lot more credence when you show others who are posting the same courtesy and read their posts.

    To answer your question, yes, we’ve tossed that idea around. Some agree, some do not, some aren’t sure. There are lots of other interesting things floating around, so pull up a chair and stay a while….

    : ) P

  413. JZ says:

    ^^^again in addition to this….which kind of debunks…the scene where the others are at the barracks right before widmore gets booted from the island….

    But i promise you that “processing sign” is swinging in that scene…i can’t get over that

  414. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328694"]^^^again in addition to this….which kind of debunks…the scene where the others are at the barracks right before widmore gets booted from the island….

    But i promise you that “processing sign” is swinging in that scene…i can’t get over that[/quote]

    The sign is swinging when Christian meets Lapidus and Sun. The same sign is swinging when Locke and Ben show up. Is that the sign you are talking about?

    If so, I think that you need to keep in mind that for three years New Otherton camp was abandoned. The inside of rooms would remain much as they were left, but the outside was open to the elements, where wind and rain (and Smokey) can wreak havoc. I think the sign was probably always there, but because it was hanging properly, we didn’t notice it. Or not. *g*

    : ) P

  415. lola says:

    i think Widmore left AFTER the purge due to the fact that Ben was pushing a roughly 5-6 year old Alex on a swingset in Dharmavlle and Richard just casually strolls up to him to let him know Charles was leaving. Also they, meaning the others, seem to now be in control of the sub, which once belonged to Dharma and have been for awhile since Charles comes and goes as he pleases. Also a young Ethan, who was born into Dharma is with Ben when he goes to kill Danielle. SO….either Ethan and Ben are sneaking off to the others or they are now completely with the others.
    btw-we saw the others, Widmore and Ellie on the island in the 50’s-how did they get there?

    regarding comment 147-don’t forget that Ben still had the intention to try to off John again as he wanted Ceasar to believe that John was a crazy man already on island. Whether this makes Ben good, evil, or just jealous I don’t know

    I’m over Ileana already. Get rid of her. Obvioulsy the 316 survivors have a major purpose yet to be revealed. But she reminds me of Ana Lucia who I couldn’t stand either.

    Excellent dialogue b/w Ben and John. My favorite line was when John said to Ben that him ruling behind a desk just seemed so corporate.

    They would have to eff up the ending of LOST pretty bad for me to really care. I’m so entangled, it really doesn’t matter but I do hope they pull it off. Are the writers really going as deep as some of the viewers are? They already admitted they screwed up the whole Charlotte’s age issue…

  416. Nickb says:

    Hurley is the guys voice repeating the #’s over the broadcast heard in the South Pacific by the 2 dudes, one who got supposedly cursed and the other who in the looney bin says them all the time during connect 4 games; With that said Danielle and her French comrades hear this broadcast and come to the island; Hurley doesn’t realize it yet but his life and those #’s are going to come full circle (He wins the lotto with them in 2002 or so?, sometime soon he send out a call through the radio tower in 1977-it is going to blow his mind or is it!!! It has got to be him giving those #’s over that radio broadcast….Thoughts anyone?

  417. lola says:

    [quote comment="328655"]Lies, Lies, and more Lies. I stand by my comment 100 from before this episode how.

    * When Sun shows Ben the picture of ’77 Ben acts surprised that they were in Dharma back then. I call bigtime BS on this. More manipulation by Ben. He clearly remembers that. The first thing he told Charles when he woke up after being healed was that he did not want to go back to hid Dad. I think he remembers everything EXCEPT Sayid shooting him.

    i pretty much agree w/ everything in your post except this part. I’m not sure on this. Someone else stated earlier that they felt that maybe this was the O6ers FIRST time in the 70’s. I don’t feel like we were ever given a hint that Ben had some recognition of them unless you take account the comment “you remind him of her” and you feel like this refers to Ben remembering Juliet as herself. I’m going to go back and watch the episode where Ben as Henry Gale, first “meets” Sayid before he tortures him. I recall Ben’s eyes getting big when he sees him, but was this recognition or fear?

  418. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328671"]
    Smokey is def. mysterious in why he kills. The first pilot was just sitting in his capt’s chair doing nothing…Keamy’s group managed to get away too. He dragged Locke at one point but let go…why?[/quote]
    Like Jimmy Walker used to say, DY-NO-MITE.

  419. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328655"]
    I have only read up to comment 281 so I apologize if I am repeating what someone has already said.

    Sorry for the long winded post but I have to go out of town and I wanted to get it out there…. lol
    [/quote]
    You summed up the posts before the one you posted pretty well.

  420. lola says:

    [quote comment="328698"]Hurley is the guys voice repeating the #’s over the broadcast heard in the South Pacific by the 2 dudes, one who got supposedly cursed and the other who in the looney bin says them all the time during connect 4 games; With that said Danielle and her French comrades hear this broadcast and come to the island; Hurley doesn’t realize it yet but his life and those #’s are going to come full circle (He wins the lotto with them in 2002 or so?, sometime soon he send out a call through the radio tower in 1977-it is going to blow his mind or is it!!! It has got to be him giving those #’s over that radio broadcast….Thoughts anyone?[/quote]
    ————————–

    wait-i’m confused. i remember the dude in the psycho ward that repeats the #’s, but what broadcast are you referring to? The one before 316 crashed?

  421. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328705"][quote comment="328698"]Hurley is the guys voice repeating the #’s over the broadcast heard in the South Pacific by the 2 dudes, one who got supposedly cursed and the other who in the looney bin says them all the time during connect 4 games; With that said Danielle and her French comrades hear this broadcast and come to the island; Hurley doesn’t realize it yet but his life and those #’s are going to come full circle (He wins the lotto with them in 2002 or so?, sometime soon he send out a call through the radio tower in 1977-it is going to blow his mind or is it!!! It has got to be him giving those #’s over that radio broadcast….Thoughts anyone?[/quote]
    ————————–

    wait-i’m confused. i remember the dude in the psycho ward that repeats the #’s, but what broadcast are you referring to? The one before 316 crashed?[/quote]
    Rosseaou and her crew first heard the numbers on a radio transmission, which she later changed for a distress signal.

  422. Shadow says:

    [quote comment="328680"][quote comment="328656"]I was thinking that Ben really doesn’t know what Jacob wants and has been surviving (and fooling everyone) by his wits….

    ….OK. Let the debunking begin :)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    Okay…the scene where we first ‘saw’ jacob…Ben is talking to him…makes Jacob angry…cabin shakes, etc. To me, Jacob WAS talking to Ben. Ben is ‘shocked’ to find out Locke heard the words ‘help me’ directed at Locke.

    I think Ben saying Locke has no idea what the island wants was another ‘test’ to see if Locke is the next chosen one.[/quote]

    Wow, I had forgotten about Jacob saying “Help me” to Locke. Seems like that was such a long time ago. What did he mean by that? I’m sure its been discussed before, but I’ve only been on this blog for a couple of weeks.

  423. Shadow says:

    Ilana told Sayid that she was hired to take him to Guam where the family of the guy he shot on the golf course lives and wants to deal with him. How would she have known that Sayid killed that guy on the golf course? from Widmore? That’s why I think she must be working for him.
    Any thoughts?

  424. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328708"][quote comment="328705"][quote comment="328698"]Hurley is the guys voice repeating the #’s over the broadcast heard in the South Pacific by the 2 dudes, one who got supposedly cursed and the other who in the looney bin says them all the time during connect 4 games; With that said Danielle and her French comrades hear this broadcast and come to the island; Hurley doesn’t realize it yet but his life and those #’s are going to come full circle (He wins the lotto with them in 2002 or so?, sometime soon he send out a call through the radio tower in 1977-it is going to blow his mind or is it!!! It has got to be him giving those #’s over that radio broadcast….Thoughts anyone?[/quote]
    ————————–

    wait-i’m confused. i remember the dude in the psycho ward that repeats the #’s, but what broadcast are you referring to? The one before 316 crashed?[/quote]
    +++++++++
    Rosseaou and her crew first heard the numbers on a radio transmission, which she later changed for a distress signal.[/quote]

    Sorry for not clarifying better. The distress signal was the one our LOSTies heard in the Pilot episode, the numbers were playing over and over on it before Danielle changed it. It was heard by Sam Toomey and Leonard Simms around 1988.

    http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Numbers

  425. Nickb says:

    [quote comment="328708"][quote comment="328705"][quote comment="328698"]Hurley is the guys voice repeating the #’s over the broadcast heard in the South Pacific by the 2 dudes, one who got supposedly cursed and the other who in the looney bin says them all the time during connect 4 games; With that said Danielle and her French comrades hear this broadcast and come to the island; Hurley doesn’t realize it yet but his life and those #’s are going to come full circle (He wins the lotto with them in 2002 or so?, sometime soon he send out a call through the radio tower in 1977-it is going to blow his mind or is it!!! It has got to be him giving those #’s over that radio broadcast….Thoughts anyone?[/quote]
    ————————–

    wait-i’m confused. i remember the dude in the psycho ward that repeats the #’s, but what broadcast are you referring to? The one before 316 crashed?[/quote]
    Rosseaou and her crew first heard the numbers on a radio transmission, which she later changed for a distress signal.[/quote]

    -Right!, That signal Rousseaou heard was the #’s in 1988 and they came after picking them up on radio transmission
    That same signal was heard by 2 Navy guys in stationed at a listening post in the South Pacific; one guy being Hurley’s Connect 4 playing partner (he asked him where he got the #’s from after winning the lottery and he told him from (name I can’t remember) but that due was in the Navy with Connect 4 guy)
    .Hurley went to see about this guy and went to Australia to see about these #’s he thought was cursed; there in Australia he finds out about the #’s and the guy who lived with his wife in miles away from people so noone would be harmed by his supposed curse of the #’s-remember the jelly bean counting story she told?!!!
    .You see now that Hurley is in 1977, he will either be told to send out that radio transmission with those #’s or something will happen where he broadcast those darn #’s thru the islands radio tower—–and these events will follow……whatever happened…happened right!!

    Events:
    1977 Hurley broadcast #’s
    1978, 1979-South Pacific Stationed Navy Guy hears them
    1980’s sometime-Navy guy uses the #’s at a Fair to win jelly bean counting contest-CURSED!
    1980’s sometime-His Navy buddy goes NUTS end up in the psych ward repeating those #’s while playing board and children’s games
    1988-Rosseaou and Team hear this broadcast and come looking following that signal while on research vessel (this causes all sorts of stuff once they land)
    2002-Hurley hears The #’s while playing connect 4 with Looney Guy
    2002-Hurley plays those #’s and wins lottery!
    Hurley thinks he’s cursed since bad stuff keeps happening
    2004-Hurley asks Looney guy where he got the #’s; he gets upset and says “you shouldn’t have played them; you opened the box?” CRAZY!!
    2004-Hurley goes to Australia to look for the guy in the Navy who worked with Looney Bin guy
    Hurley finds his wife; she tells him about the beans
    NEXT DAY-Hurley gets on flight and the plane crashes on Island-
    THE STORY THEN KEEPs going….
    Hear french broadcast, find French lady, find tower, find the original recording was of #’s from the french lady, Hurley spas out because these #’s are popping up everywhere….

    But in my theory somewhere here soon; Hurley is going to transmit that Broadcast

    I don’t know why yet; but it brings him full circle back to the Island in the First place…
    In the 70’s he said those #’s on radio; and eventually those #’s got him back to that Island through course corrections and all and he is now back at the moment when he will tape that transmission.

    It is a lot of stuff; hopefully doesn’t seem like rambling but I just got a feeling his voice is saying those #’s. It makes sense; it was his purpose!

  426. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328710"]Ilana told Sayid that she was hired to take him to Guam where the family of the guy he shot on the golf course lives and wants to deal with him. How would she have known that Sayid killed that guy on the golf course? from Widmore? That’s why I think she must be working for him.
    Any thoughts?[/quote]
    ++++++++
    Yeah that’s kind of weird. So far we have seen Ben involved with getting Jack, Kate, and Locke on the plane. Did we see he was involved with Hurley or Sun? I assume he was as I thought he did Sayid. But maybe not, if Ilana does work for Widmore, maybe Widmore got Sayid on the plane. Thanks for confusing me.:)

  427. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="328714"][
    In the 70’s he said those #’s on radio; and eventually those #’s got him back to that Island through course corrections and all and he is now back at the moment when he will tape that transmission.
    [/quote]
    I love the theory. What kind of situation would Hurley have to be in to say those numbers again?

  428. Nickb says:

    [quote comment="328716"][quote comment="328714"][
    In the 70’s he said those #’s on radio; and eventually those #’s got him back to that Island through course corrections and all and he is now back at the moment when he will tape that transmission.
    [/quote]
    I love the theory. What kind of situation would Hurley have to be in to say those numbers again?[/quote]

    I wish I knew!!!Thats the fun part and what blows a hole in the theory…

    Possible Situations- He makes broadcast so future people know the computer code to stop meltdown. (Best Possible)-Stop Incendent!
    .He is giving out Longitude and Latitude for Island-To have someone arrive?
    .He is telling himself to play those #’s in the lottery in the future or not!

    There are a large # of reasons, if it comes to fruition that he did broadcast the #’s (which someone does at some point)…then the writers will have to have a great reason/situation for him to do so….because remember Hurley will know the strife and things to come from doing this!!!! But is may have been his destiny all along!!

    Got to hit the hay!!! TGIF!!!

  429. Nickb says:

    [quote comment="328716"][quote comment="328714"][
    In the 70’s he said those #’s on radio; and eventually those #’s got him back to that Island through course corrections and all and he is now back at the moment when he will tape that transmission.
    [/quote]
    I love the theory. What kind of situation would Hurley have to be in to say those numbers again?[/quote]

    I wish I knew!!!Thats the fun part and what blows a hole in the theory…

    Possible Situations- He makes broadcast so future people know the computer code to stop meltdown. (Best Possible)-Stop Incendent!
    .He is giving out Longitude and Latitude for Island-To have someone arrive?
    .He is telling himself to play those #’s in the lottery in the future or not!

    There are a large # of reasons, if it comes to fruition that he did broadcast the #’s (which someone does at some point)…then the writers will have to have a great reason/situation for him to do so….because remember Hurley will know the strife and things to come from doing this!!!! But it may have been his destiny all along!!

    Got to hit the hay!!! TGIF!!!

  430. Nickb says:

    [quote comment="328716"][quote comment="328714"][
    In the 70’s he said those #’s on radio; and eventually those #’s got him back to that Island through course corrections and all and he is now back at the moment when he will tape that transmission.
    [/quote]
    I love the theory. What kind of situation would Hurley have to be in to say those numbers again?[/quote]

    I wish I knew!!!Thats the fun part and what blows a hole in the theory…

    Possible Situations- He makes broadcast so future people know the computer code to stop meltdown. (Best Possible)-Stop Incendent!
    .He is giving out Longitude and Latitude for Island-To have someone arrive?
    .He is telling himself to play those #’s in the lottery in the future or not!

    There are a large # of reasons, if it comes to fruition that he did broadcast the #’s (which someone does at some point)…then the writers will have to have a great reason/situation for him to do so….because remember Hurley will know the strife and things to come from doing this!!!! But it may have been his destiny all along!!

    Got to hit the hay!!! TGIF!!!

  431. Nickb says:

    [quote comment="328716"][quote comment="328714"][
    In the 70’s he said those #’s on radio; and eventually those #’s got him back to that Island through course corrections and all and he is now back at the moment when he will tape that transmission.
    [/quote]
    I love the theory. What kind of situation would Hurley have to be in to say those numbers again?[/quote]

    Valenzetti Equation!!

    I just googled my theory and saw it is shared and discussed by many other viewers, but the timeline is what has people thinking about it now we know they are in the 70’s. He broadcast the answer to the Equation!

  432. Shadow says:

    [quote comment="328715"][quote comment="328710"]Ilana told Sayid that she was hired to take him to Guam where the family of the guy he shot on the golf course lives and wants to deal with him. How would she have known that Sayid killed that guy on the golf course? from Widmore? That’s why I think she must be working for him.
    Any thoughts?[/quote]
    ++++++++
    Yeah that’s kind of weird. So far we have seen Ben involved with getting Jack, Kate, and Locke on the plane. Did we see he was involved with Hurley or Sun? I assume he was as I thought he did Sayid. But maybe not, if Ilana does work for Widmore, maybe Widmore got Sayid on the plane. Thanks for confusing me.:)[/quote]

    Hey lostforever, Ben did convince Sun to go, because he told her that Jin was alive, and that’s why she got on the plane. As for Hurley, he sure tried to get Hurley. You’re right though…how exactly was Hurley convinced to go? I think Widmore knew Sayid was a killing machine, and maybe he was supposed to help Ilana and co. with “the war”?
    OK, and then I thought, when Charlie kept appearing to Hurley, did he want him to go back, or am I just making that up?

  433. LostJunkie says:

    I do think we are going to see Hurley and the Numbers being reinforced into the show soon, because Hurley hasn’t been doing jack sh*t for a while on this show, let’s face it. He hasn’t added much to the story for a while, other than being annoying (although he at least got some funny lines in his dialogue with Miles about WHH). At least before, Hurley was entertaining us and being funny, at the very least. Aside from the WHH discussion, he hasn’t even been doing that lately.

    I also agree with the poster who likened Ilana to Ana Lucia. I couldn’t stand Ana Lucia and I’m sure I’m going to despise Ilana too. Not that this is bad for the show…Michelle Rodriguez obviously played her part well. I just didn’t like her character at all on the show.

  434. LostJunkie says:

    Just realized that I started a sentence by saying “at least” and ended it with saying “at the very least.” Talk about redundant! =)

  435. RGS says:

    [quote comment="328714"] Hurley is the guys voice repeating the #’s over the broadcast heard in the South Pacific by the 2 dudes, one who got supposedly cursed and the other who in the looney bin says them all the time during connect 4 games;

    It makes sense; it was his purpose! [/quote]

    This is great stuff! Nice!

  436. marco says:

    LostJunkie wrote:

    Also, in the last episode we could infer that both Widmore and Ellie were on the Island at the time young Ben got shot by Sayid, in 1977. We know Widmore was there for at least a few years after that, up until he gets exiled, probably around 1984 or 1987 at the latest (I say that because if Widmore says he’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, that means “20 years ago” is the mid-1980’s.) So, I think this means Widmore had nothing to do with orchestrating the Purge; he had already left. And we didn’t see Ellie at all in this episode during the flashback scenes with Widmore, so we still don’t know when she left, and what her exact relationship to Widmore is.

    ————-

    What’s curious about this is that Ben is pushing Alex on a swing in the Dharma compound in 1987 and the others are using the Dharma sub too. So that would be post purge. Which does’nt add up with Horaces statement that leads us to believe the purge happened in early 90s

  437. ycran says:

    What’s up with Ceasar getting shot??!! I thought he was going to be a character of more importance; but then again this is Lost so he might not be dead after all.
    I don’t really like any of the Ajira survivors, I know is too early and they haven’t had any real exposure but I still think they’re a bunch of wannabes; I hope they all get killed by smokey.
    Ilana is just as annoying as Ana Lucia was!

  438. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328619"][quote comment="328525"][quote comment="328522"]Just a thought here, but I can’t see Ben being so remorseful about shooting Des that he would make such a point of getting an apology back to him. We didn’t see the end of the Ben\Penny\Des scene, and I’m thinking Ben either does end up killing Penny, OR, given the two scenes last night where Ben showed a soft spot for kids, it might be more likely that he killed little Charlie, possible by accident. anyone feelin’ me on this?[/quote]
    ______

    IMO, they showed us exactly what they wanted us to see. I think he was just truly sorry and didn’t realize they had a child. That’s just me. I think the mystery is solved, but again….I may be wrong.[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    I agree with Lar. I am not so sure Ben didn’t accomplish his mission.[/quote]
    __________________________
    I agree with Tasha. Remember that Ben’s gun went flying into the water as Desmond was beating him up. And just the way the scene ended, with Ben spewing blood into the water, I think that issue is closed.

    As far as Ben telling Sun to tell desmond he’s sorry, I think the writers threw that bit in there to foreshadow the scene at the marina, and to keep up guessing as to what he meant. And as the scene in the marina developed, with Charlie coming up on the deck, it was pretty suspenseful scene, We thought there was a distinct possibility that Penny or Charlie would be killed, because of Ben’s “apology”. I think that the scene would have been a little less suspenseful if Ben hadn’t apologized.

    And there’s the additional likelihood, which someone here has already mentioned, that once Ben saw little Charlie, he had a change of heart, and this goes along with the overall theme of Ben having a soft spot for kids, and that is the reason for his apology, in the context of the story.

  439. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328772"]What’s curious about this is that Ben is pushing Alex on a swing in the Dharma compound in 1987 and the others are using the Dharma sub too. So that would be post purge. Which does’nt add up with Horaces statement that leads us to believe the purge happened in early 90s[/quote]

    Alex was sixteen (or so) when she died in 2004. That puts her birth in 1988 or so. She could not have been on a swing in 1987.

    I said this back in 349, but wasn’t very clear. Trying again…

    I posited that when Widmore says he has been trying to get “back” for twenty years, he really meant, “back into POWER” instead. Perhaps he was “in exile” for several years before he was actually banished from the island. So let’s say that he’s been leaving the island to go procreate, as well as possibly fund, and re-direct DHARMA to take advantage of the island. In the mid-80’s, perhaps Alpert finds out and confines him to the polar bear cages until they figure out what to do. Maybe they orchestrate the purge in 1992, and finally ex-communicate Widmore after that, possibly 1993 or 1994, based on Alex’s age on the day that Widmore is put on the sub.

    : ) P

  440. Heidi says:

    okay I know this is late, but been busy. Missed some of Lost what happened when Ilana (sp?) told Frank to tie him up he’s coming with us? I was in and out of this episode due to trying to get my daughter ready for bed. So what happened in a nutshell during this part? I saw Ben shoot Caesar with the shot gun and them loading up the guns, but I heard something about the statue. As in the 4 toed statue? pls explain. Thanks!

  441. steve says:

    While thinking about judgment and owning up to ones transgressions, I thought about metaphorically facing demons, and had the following ideas.

    TOTAL RECALL MEETS NURSE RATCHET THEORY — > What if none of what we are seeing is reality? Similar to the events in the movie Total Recall. Our character(s) is living an alternate reality generated for them with implanted memories and characters to guide them through a maze of events and decisions. All of these things are being observed and manipulated to test a theory that who we are is determined, and can be modified by, our environment. Each subject is their own control, and the observers are replaying situations to their subjects with certain roles and circumstances, that are altered from one trial to the next, in order to elicit a change in response. Much like in a deprogramming from a cult or an addiction, subjects are taught or trained to behave differently, only on the “Island” they are not only drug addicts, but perhaps they suffer mental/emotional anomalies that are being corrected through behavioral training. Note the constant references to medication, and the Hydra facility for re-programming. Hydra has many heads.
    In this scenario, the plane never existed, but is rather is a symbol of going from one state of mind to another – a trip per say. The island is no island, but rather a symbol of a place that there is no easy escape from thus the subject must adapt to and deal with his/her environment. The change of environment would facilitate a way of leaving behind ones previous way of thinking and entering into a new way of thinking. The situations and events are a way to save one’s own world, from self destructive ways, one day at a time, or every 108 minutes at a time. Being FOUND would not be completed simply through deprogramming, so the subjects are placed on a journey which they have to trust and believe in themselves in order to find purpose in their lives. They are LOST from themselves, and must be reconnected with a sense of value and purpose in order to emerge from the experience to find they are whole and fixed.

    May not fit all scenarios, but maybe thought provoking.

  442. wallyp says:

    [quote comment="328778"][quote comment="328772"]What’s curious about this is that Ben is pushing Alex on a swing in the Dharma compound in 1987 and the others are using the Dharma sub too. So that would be post purge. Which does’nt add up with Horaces statement that leads us to believe the purge happened in early 90s[/quote]

    Alex was sixteen (or so) when she died in 2004. That puts her birth in 1988 or so. She could not have been on a swing in 1987.

    I said this back in 349, but wasn’t very clear. Trying again…

    I posited that when Widmore says he has been trying to get “back” for twenty years, he really meant, “back into POWER” instead. Perhaps he was “in exile” for several years before he was actually banished from the island. So let’s say that he’s been leaving the island to go procreate, as well as possibly fund, and re-direct DHARMA to take advantage of the island.

    In the mid-80’s, perhaps Alpert finds out and confines him to the polar bear cages until they figure out what to do. Maybe they orchestrate the purge in 1992, and finally ex-communicate Widmore after that, possibly 1993 or 1994, based on Alex’s age on the day that Widmore is put on the sub.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ********************************

    I think it is something like this. I think its similar to the way Ben has been treated all along. I’m starting to think that Christian has taken Bens role on the island. Ben didn’t know it yet, but he was out of power as soon as Christian landed on the island… hence him getting the tumor. He has been being “judged” all along, and all the while sticking close to Locke. Similar to Ben and Widmore before. (maybe Grampa Ray was the secret fill in leader at that point?) John Locke has been being briefed basically on how to be a replacement. Ben turning the wheel was to escape final judgement, but he realized while off island that there was no escape and he would have to face it eventually.

    I think its interesting how they show a few different sides to Ben in this ep. He has his evil manipulative side, but he does have his sensitive moments also (corse that could be just him trying to show it to the smokey), and he also has a constant need to prove his worth-even to John Locke while he’s still actually working against him. The final scene with him and John doesn’t prove to me that Ben will be able to change his ways, and perhaps we will see the smokey devour him eventually. (Its too late for him to just get sent home on a sub-he effed up real bad by turning that wheel) PS-I wonder if they had that scene with Alex in the cave in mind when they originally cast her, that was her best five seconds on the show.

  443. wallyp says:

    [quote comment="328730"]I do think we are going to see Hurley and the Numbers being reinforced into the show soon, because Hurley hasn’t been doing jack sh*t for a while on this show, let’s face it. He hasn’t added much to the story for a while, other than being annoying (although he at least got some funny lines in his dialogue with Miles about WHH). At least before, Hurley was entertaining us and being funny, at the very least. Aside from the WHH discussion, he hasn’t even been doing that lately.

    I also agree with the poster who likened Ilana to Ana Lucia. I couldn’t stand Ana Lucia and I’m sure I’m going to despise Ilana too. Not that this is bad for the show…Michelle Rodriguez obviously played her part well. I just didn’t like her character at all on the show.[/quote]

    My first thought about Lllana was that she was Ana Lucias sister.

  444. JZ says:

    [quote comment="328695"][quote comment="328694"]^^^again in addition to this….which kind of debunks…the scene where the others are at the barracks right before widmore gets booted from the island….

    But i promise you that “processing sign” is swinging in that scene…i can’t get over that[/quote]

    The sign is swinging when Christian meets Lapidus and Sun. The same sign is swinging when Locke and Ben show up. Is that the sign you are talking about?

    If so, I think that you need to keep in mind that for three years New Otherton camp was abandoned. The inside of rooms would remain much as they were left, but the outside was open to the elements, where wind and rain (and Smokey) can wreak havoc. I think the sign was probably always there, but because it was hanging properly, we didn’t notice it. Or not. *g*

    : ) P[/quote]

    ********
    thanks for adding to this…maybe this wasn’t as clear as the earlier post…i didn’t “quote and reply” to those….

    and i totally get the fact that they haven’t been there for 3 years, BUT the others were pretty civilized over there and really made the Barracks their home. They were smart, too. It didn’t make sense for me that the sign was left up simply because they didn’t have time to take it down. I dunno, just can’t get over it…refer to post #412 for a better explanation i started with…my apologies for not keeping it in one thread.

    Thanks for everyone who had insight :)

  445. JZ says:

    [quote comment="328806"][quote comment="328730"]I do think we are going to see Hurley and the Numbers being reinforced into the show soon, because Hurley hasn’t been doing jack sh*t for a while on this show, let’s face it. He hasn’t added much to the story for a while, other than being annoying (although he at least got some funny lines in his dialogue with Miles about WHH). At least before, Hurley was entertaining us and being funny, at the very least. Aside from the WHH discussion, he hasn’t even been doing that lately.

    I also agree with the poster who likened Ilana to Ana Lucia. I couldn’t stand Ana Lucia and I’m sure I’m going to despise Ilana too. Not that this is bad for the show…Michelle Rodriguez obviously played her part well. I just didn’t like her character at all on the show.[/quote]

    My first thought about Lllana was that she was Ana Lucias sister.[/quote]

    *************************

    I hated Ana too! And Ilana is already annoying too! That connection is very strange…i think she actually looks like Ana’s mom…maybe a twin sister???

  446. Locke is Jacob says:

    Great Episode, the Smoke Monster a.k.a the “mirror of karma” around Ben was cheesy but still a great ep. Speaking of Ben, I agree with Flyboy, he has been, is and always will be full of it. He tells people exactly what they want to hear and he doesn’t give out any info he doesn’t need to.

    With that being said, I agree with all the Egyptian references through the show and on this blog, but a lot of things lately have reminded me more of The Tibetan Book of the Dead.

    This might have been discussed in previous thread but when you get a minute, Wikipedia the word Samsara. While your there, type in Buddhism and look at the “Wheel of Life / Dharma”…look familiar??? Also, the The Four Noble Truths might also shed light to what some of these character are experiencing.

    The writes have always indicated the characters are not in purgatory, have they confirmed they aren’t in some state of Samsara???

    P.S. I know some of these terms are related to both Buddhist and Hindu belief, please correct me if I’m wrong about anything.

    Thoughts?

  447. JZ says:

    [quote comment="328811"]Great Episode, the Smoke Monster a.k.a the “mirror of karma” around Ben was cheesy but still a great ep. Speaking of Ben, I agree with Flyboy, he has been, is and always will be full of it. He tells people exactly what they want to hear and he doesn’t give out any info he doesn’t need to.

    With that being said, I agree with all the Egyptian references through the show and on this blog, but a lot of things lately have reminded me more of The Tibetan Book of the Dead.

    This might have been discussed in previous thread but when you get a minute, Wikipedia the word Samsara. While your there, type in Buddhism and look at the “Wheel of Life / Dharma”…look familiar??? Also, the The Four Noble Truths might also shed light to what some of these character are experiencing.

    The writes have always indicated the characters are not in purgatory, have they confirmed they aren’t in some state of Samsara???

    P.S. I know some of these terms are related to both Buddhist and Hindu belief, please correct me if I’m wrong about anything.

    Thoughts?[/quote]

    *****

    I thought of the idea of re-incarnation as a theory that ties into Lost. I also think it is only happening for some characters…like Ben and Locke…but really didn’t have a good explanation for it…i can see it working in some way though

  448. JZ says:

    [quote comment="328812"][quote comment="328811"]Great Episode, the Smoke Monster a.k.a the “mirror of karma” around Ben was cheesy but still a great ep. Speaking of Ben, I agree with Flyboy, he has been, is and always will be full of it. He tells people exactly what they want to hear and he doesn’t give out any info he doesn’t need to.

    With that being said, I agree with all the Egyptian references through the show and on this blog, but a lot of things lately have reminded me more of The Tibetan Book of the Dead.

    This might have been discussed in previous thread but when you get a minute, Wikipedia the word Samsara. While your there, type in Buddhism and look at the “Wheel of Life / Dharma”…look familiar??? Also, the The Four Noble Truths might also shed light to what some of these character are experiencing.

    The writes have always indicated the characters are not in purgatory, have they confirmed they aren’t in some state of Samsara???

    P.S. I know some of these terms are related to both Buddhist and Hindu belief, please correct me if I’m wrong about anything.

    Thoughts?[/quote]

    *****

    I thought of the idea of re-incarnation as a theory that ties into Lost. I also think it is only happening for some characters…like Ben and Locke…but really didn’t have a good explanation for it…i can see it working in some way though[/quote]

    **************

    reincarnation or some kind of re-birth

  449. lost_dude says:

    Hello, i’m new here and may be it’s not a fresh idea.

    Is it possible that Ajira survivors are now suffering some kind of mental disease, like french expedition before them? so they just shoot themselves, like rousseau’s team.

    Another thing about this Disease theory is that on the beach Lapidus meets the guy, who shouts that Illana and others are now in control and they behaving very strange. And they weren’t behaving in any way strange before that ep.

    And another implication of this ‘mental disease’ – could it be possible that Purge is not what it seems, and Dharma people just killed one another, as a result of a Virus we’re heard so much.

    The great chest Ajira survivors moving everywhere looks like a real pandora box! and why they take it to the boats, in Lapidus return scene?

  450. Rita says:

    I’ve been wondering about the runway – since it turned out to be in fact a runway – “Jacob” saw the need for it and so directed the people to build it, right? For what? For Widmore’s “war”? For Ilana and co. to come, and do what? If it is in fact Widmore’s group with the guns, it is interesting that it was Ben’s group that built the runway.

  451. Circus Mom says:

    I rewatched too and here is what I got.

    I think Locke did the thing with the shoes to remind us who’s they were.

    I think they found the guns in the Hydra. I think the crate is holding Widmores body. Widmore sent Dexmond to Mrs. Hawdings because he knew whe was trying to send the O6 back and he wanted to follow them. Ilana and Co. are there to bring his body to the temple to be healed.

    Ben protects innocents. Children are innocents. Ben lost his innocence when RA took him into the temple. The rule Widmore broke is he killed a true innocent, Alex.

    April 10, 2009 2:26

  452. Mateo says:

    I dont have time to read all of the above comments so forgive me if this theory was already said…
    I believe the John Locke that was killed by Ben is dead. The Locke we are watching now is a Locke from another time, switched during the flash. After Locke “came back to life” he somehow knows a lot more all of the sudden, I think Ben is right, “dead is dead” ,… time will tell

  453. RGS says:

    [quote comment="328834"]I rewatched too and here is what I got.

    I think Locke did the thing with the shoes to remind us who’s they were.

    I think they found the guns in the Hydra. I think the crate is holding Widmores body. Widmore sent Dexmond to Mrs. Hawdings because he knew whe was trying to send the O6 back and he wanted to follow them. Ilana and Co. are there to bring his body to the temple to be healed.

    Ben protects innocents. Children are innocents. Ben lost his innocence when RA took him into the temple. The rule Widmore broke is he killed a true innocent, Alex.

    April 10, 2009 2:26[/quote]

    As an official spokesperson for Team Widmore, we do not like the theory that such a prestigious gentleman of honor, and former leader on this island, is travelling cooped up in a metal crate. Moreover, we do not believe Widmore is dead, if in fact that is what you are alternatively intimating.

    I also disagree slightly with Ben protecting innocents, as I’m not sure what Ceasar did to catch a hot one to the chest.

    Finally, IMO I’m not sure if Ben is actually referring to an actual rule, or what he believes to be a rule, when he made his statement. Widmore already stated that Alex would eventually die if it was the will of the ISLAND.

  454. Heidi says:

    question:

    Why don’t you think Christian had contacted Jack at all? I know eventually they will meet up again, possible next season around the ending I am guessing. Perhaps makes a bigger story line? Thoughts anyone!???

  455. Ken says:

    [quote comment="328710"]Ilana told Sayid that she was hired to take him to Guam where the family of the guy he shot on the golf course lives and wants to deal with him. How would she have known that Sayid killed that guy on the golf course? from Widmore? That’s why I think she must be working for him.
    Any thoughts?[/quote]

    I don’t think it would be to much of a stretch that Ben ratted him out. He’s trying to get everyone back to the island. Ben might have even hired her, told her where he was and was adamant about her and Sayid getting on the Algeria flight. There’s no reason to believe that she had any direct contact with the family and Ben could easily have posed as them over the phone or through some other intermediary.

  456. Duke says:

    [quote comment="328245"]Okay, does this sound right?

    Widmore was a double agent of sorts. He went off island often and that when he became a funder of DHARMA, had them come to the island while he was there…and gets banished after the purge? No?[/quote]
    _____________________________
    Yeah, Hammer AFTER THE PURGE!!! Some 38 years after we first met him which would coincide with his statement about helping protect the island for OVER 3 decades. 1954 probably wasn’t his first year there either. Maybe Widmore is more truthful than Ben.

  457. Duke says:

    [quote comment="328263"][quote comment="328246"][quote comment="328232"] He COULD have killed Penny and didnt, he the lowered the gun because they had a baby[/quote]
    Not killing Penny wasn’t really by choice although he did lower the gun. Who knows had Des not intervened if he still would have done it.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    It was the same scene as when he was supposed to kill Danielle.

    Looks like Ben just might be a ‘good’ guy after all, just willing to do ALMOST anything for the island.[/quote]
    ___________________________________________
    Just because he is doing what he does for the island doesn’t make him good. Hitler also thought what he was doing was for the greater good. I do not think anyone would consider him to be good.

    Killing Penny wasn’t FOR the island. IT was for revenge. Not really understanding your coments this week Hammer something wrong. You sick or something? Not really on top of your game.

  458. LuliB says:

    just throwing this out there…

    Two things keep sticking in my mind when we talk about timelines:
    1) Desmond waking up and “reliving” different events and things having the same outcome with Charlie after turning the failsafe key
    and
    2)Faraday referring to his notebook to see if he had ” been here before” or something to that effect. I may be wrong, but it seemed as though he was writing himself notes to keep himself straight.

    Both with Desmond and Faraday we also had the idea of “constants” to contend with. It seems to me that their time-jumping was different and a lot less linear than our oceanic 6 losties jumping back to 77. Not sure where I’m going with this, but it just seems that their time jumping was different by nature than this back-in-time jag that the ’77ers are in.

    also, I’m a long time lurker, posting for the first time on this episode. Love reading through the comments.

  459. JasonS says:

    [quote comment="328832"]I’ve been wondering about the runway – since it turned out to be in fact a runway – “Jacob” saw the need for it and so directed the people to build it, right? For what? For Widmore’s “war”? For Ilana and co. to come, and do what? If it is in fact Widmore’s group with the guns, it is interesting that it was Ben’s group that built the runway.[/quote]

    —-

    That’s an interesting question. If in turns out Ilana and co are part of Widmore’s team, then perhaps it just suggests that Jacob is more concerned with the O6 to return to the island. In S04 Widmore’s team arrived on the island, but the island managed to keep Widmore himself off. Based on the developments, it seems that the coming “war” will be between the people who want to protect the island (Oceanic ppl, Others, Ben and Locke) and those that want to exploit it (Widmore?). Based on the Widmore flashbacks in this episode, I’ve started to feel doubt about whether Widmore could even talk to Jacob (he was always without words at the mention of his name). In any case, I think that the price of letting Ilana and co onto the island was small with respect to getting the O6 back.

    I think there needs to be more light shed on the relationship between Widmore-Hawking-Ben. Its not really clear what side Hawking is on. Widmore knew exactly where to find her and lived with her on the island, but its not clear exactly how or why she left the island. When Ben found her in the Lighthouse, she seemed to want to help him at the same time. Got any theories on how she fits in?

  460. Duke says:

    [quote comment="328280"][quote comment="328264"][quote comment="328255"][quote comment="328254"]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n3eH1jI8AZ8/Sd1YgQw89DI/AAAAAAAAPp0/uEd7fm2S-bY/s1600-h/512+glyphs+image.jpg

    Screenshot is up for everyone LOL[/quote]
    ____________________________
    Thanks Tasha! It still REMINDS me of John’s little boy drawing though. Just the way it is layed out, something about it.[/quote]

    True. That’s got to be Anubis. Thing is….I am not sure if that is what the statue with 4 toes will be, but I don’t know. I also found this really cool article since you seem interested….

    http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/shadow.htm%5B/quote%5D

    ++++++++++++++++++

    Too lazy to write a long explanation which has already been given in the LaFleur thread.. but I’ll go on record saying the statue is not Anubis and it’s someone on the show (male character).. if I’m wrong you can have me ‘judged’[/quote]
    _______________________________
    You are wrong. The statue cannot be of someone on the show. It has a greater purpose and meaning behind it than that. Come on man stop dreamin!

  461. JasonS says:

    [quote comment="328849"]question:

    Why don’t you think Christian had contacted Jack at all? I know eventually they will meet up again, possible next season around the ending I am guessing. Perhaps makes a bigger story line? Thoughts anyone!???[/quote]

    —-
    This may be overly simplistic, but perhaps because Jack just wasn’t ready yet. It wasn’t until this season where he finally admitted he was going to try to stop fixing things (to Kate in kitchen after little Ben was shot). Not sure if he needs to become a man of faith, but he at least needs to be a little in touch with that side to understand the island.

    I think you’re right, its definitely part of a bigger story, and probably a really good one. :)

  462. Ken says:

    With all this talk of time travel, I think one question that hasn’t been addressed, is when in time are the passengers of flt 316 in relation to the island’s time line? The “Others” had been living in the Dharma barracks up until Ben turned the wheel, but when Sun, Lapidus, Locke and Ben are at the barracks, they’ve obviously been in disrepair for some time.

    When Sawyer and the rest of the gang are jumping through time and get to their old camp, that camp is also a mess and obviously no one has been living there for some time. I think it’s pretty obvious who was chasing them in the boats, shooting at them when they took the canoe (Remember the Algeria water bottle in the bottom of the boat? And now the passengers of 316 have guns). So my question is, “When are Ben, Locke, Sun, Lapidus and the rest of the surviovrs of Algeria flt. 316?

  463. Rita says:

    [quote comment="328834"]I think they found the guns in the Hydra. I think the crate is holding Widmore’s body. Widmore sent Desmond to Mrs. Hawkings because he knew she was trying to send the O6 back and he wanted to follow them. Ilana and Co. are there to bring his body to the temple to be healed.
    [/quote]
    _____________________________________
    Had to give this some thought because on the surface, I like it. Here’s the problem though – The other two coffins (Locke and C Shepherd) found their own way to healing, the island did not require that they be BROUGHT anywhere. Locke flashed out of the plane and Shepherd fell out of the wreckage (may/may not have flashed) and both landed in/near water and went on their merry ways. If Widmore is in the crate, he is most likely still dead and won’t be revived. That can’t be because he still has more of a roll in our story.

  464. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328849"]question:

    Why don’t you think Christian had contacted Jack at all? I know eventually they will meet up again, possible next season around the ending I am guessing. Perhaps makes a bigger story line? Thoughts anyone!???[/quote]

    Christian DID contact Jack. In the lobby of his office, he was there when Jack heard the beep of the smoke detector (which sounded like the warning beep of the computer in the Swan station). Though it SEEMS like a long time ago, it was in “Jack time” only a few months (or even weeks) before A316.

    If you mean, why hasn’t Christian contacted Jack ON the island, I suspect that won’t happen until season 6 when there can be a big happy family reunion between Clair and Jack and Christian. Just speculating…

    : ) P

  465. JasonS says:

    [quote comment="328853"]just throwing this out there…

    Two things keep sticking in my mind when we talk about timelines:
    1) Desmond waking up and “reliving” different events and things having the same outcome with Charlie after turning the failsafe key
    and
    2)Faraday referring to his notebook to see if he had ” been here before” or something to that effect. I may be wrong, but it seemed as though he was writing himself notes to keep himself straight.

    Both with Desmond and Faraday we also had the idea of “constants” to contend with. It seems to me that their time-jumping was different and a lot less linear than our oceanic 6 losties jumping back to 77. Not sure where I’m going with this, but it just seems that their time jumping was different by nature than this back-in-time jag that the ’77ers are in.

    also, I’m a long time lurker, posting for the first time on this episode. Love reading through the comments.[/quote]

    —-

    Perhaps it has to do with the nature of the events. It looks like “constant” based time travel involved high doses of electomagnetism. In this form, they could only travel to a previous version of themselves. “wheel” based time travel physically transports mind and body, not necessarily into your personal timeline. But there are connections between the two. It seemed like Charlotte was the only person during “wheel” based travel that also may have experienced traveling back to a younger version of herself just before she died.

    I’ve also been thinking a lot about Faraday’s notebook. I almost feel like he got it from a future version of himself (perhaps he’s writing it where ever he is now). He probably read it once not understanding any of it. But as events start to happen though, the notes start to become familiar. What do you think?

  466. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328834"]I think they found the guns in the Hydra. I think the crate is holding Widmores body. Widmore sent Dexmond to Mrs. Hawdings because he knew whe was trying to send the O6 back and he wanted to follow them. Ilana and Co. are there to bring his body to the temple to be healed.[/quote]

    That crate was REALLY big – if Widmore is in there, he brought his own bed, a crate of McCutcheons, the journal of the Black Rock and three of his closest friends! LOL.

    As for the weapons, sure there are regulations about what you can bring on a plane, even in the cargo hold, but this is WIDMORE, the man who had Sun pulled off a flight to LA so he could chastise her in his own little interrogation room in the airport. Someone with that clout can put a crate of anything he WANTS on a plane. Not that he did, just saying he COULD.

    : ) P

  467. JasonS says:

    [quote comment="328869"][quote comment="328834"]I think they found the guns in the Hydra. I think the crate is holding Widmores body. Widmore sent Dexmond to Mrs. Hawdings because he knew whe was trying to send the O6 back and he wanted to follow them. Ilana and Co. are there to bring his body to the temple to be healed.[/quote]

    That crate was REALLY big – if Widmore is in there, he brought his own bed, a crate of McCutcheons, the journal of the Black Rock and three of his closest friends! LOL.

    As for the weapons, sure there are regulations about what you can bring on a plane, even in the cargo hold, but this is WIDMORE, the man who had Sun pulled off a flight to LA so he could chastise her in his own little interrogation room in the airport. Someone with that clout can put a crate of anything he WANTS on a plane. Not that he did, just saying he COULD.

    : ) P[/quote]

    —-
    LOL, I almost hope its true just to see the minibar setup in there. :) Out of anyone, he’s the man to pull it off. He probably owns Ajira Airways for all we know (thus he hired back Lapidus too?). I think the issue has more to do with continuity. Ben calls Widmore on the day of the flight to tell him he’s going back to the island. At this point it seemed like Widmore was still in England (he was coming out of his office). But that could’ve been an office in LA I suppose.

  468. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="328726"][quote comment="328715"][quote comment="328710"]Ilana told Sayid that she was hired to take him to Guam where the family of the guy he shot on the golf course lives and wants to deal with him. How would she have known that Sayid killed that guy on the golf course? from Widmore? That’s why I think she must be working for him.
    Any thoughts?[/quote]
    ++++++++
    Yeah that’s kind of weird. So far we have seen Ben involved with getting Jack, Kate, and Locke on the plane. Did we see he was involved with Hurley or Sun? I assume he was as I thought he did Sayid. But maybe not, if Ilana does work for Widmore, maybe Widmore got Sayid on the plane. Thanks for confusing me.:)[/quote]

    Hey lostforever, Ben did convince Sun to go, because he told her that Jin was alive, and that’s why she got on the plane. As for Hurley, he sure tried to get Hurley. You’re right though…how exactly was Hurley convinced to go? I think Widmore knew Sayid was a killing machine, and maybe he was supposed to help Ilana and co. with “the war”?
    OK, and then I thought, when Charlie kept appearing to Hurley, did he want him to go back, or am I just making that up?[/quote]

    * * * * *

    We know that Hurley “saw Charlie” three times (convenience store, interrogation room and lawn of the asylum) and that they spoke once (at the asylum). I think they probably spoke again afterward. Curiously, we never saw Charlie die; when that commo room on the Looking Glass flooded, it had to trap a bubble of air at the top. Charlie said, “I am dead. But I’m also here.” He also said, “And now you have to do something. But you’re hiding from it.”

    What did Hurley have to do? Bring a guitar? Recite the numbers? Regardless, Hurley’s there because Charlie called him back.

    8) Jim

  469. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="328778"][quote comment="328772"]What’s curious about this is that Ben is pushing Alex on a swing in the Dharma compound in 1987 and the others are using the Dharma sub too. So that would be post purge. Which does’nt add up with Horaces statement that leads us to believe the purge happened in early 90s[/quote]

    Alex was sixteen (or so) when she died in 2004. That puts her birth in 1988 or so. She could not have been on a swing in 1987.

    I said this back in 349, but wasn’t very clear. Trying again…

    I posited that when Widmore says he has been trying to get “back” for twenty years, he really meant, “back into POWER” instead. Perhaps he was “in exile” for several years before he was actually banished from the island. So let’s say that he’s been leaving the island to go procreate, as well as possibly fund, and re-direct DHARMA to take advantage of the island.

    In the mid-80’s, perhaps Alpert finds out and confines him to the polar bear cages until they figure out what to do. Maybe they orchestrate the purge in 1992, and finally ex-communicate Widmore after that, possibly 1993 or 1994, based on Alex’s age on the day that Widmore is put on the sub.

    : ) P[/quote]

    * * * * *

    I probably sound like a broken record, here and on the LP, but when a character says something like “twenty years,” he or she is not counting down to the day, anymore than we real people do.

    8) Jim

  470. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="328834"]I rewatched too and here is what I got.

    I think Locke did the thing with the shoes to remind us who’s they were.

    I think they found the guns in the Hydra. I think the crate is holding Widmores body. Widmore sent Dexmond to Mrs. Hawdings because he knew whe was trying to send the O6 back and he wanted to follow them. Ilana and Co. are there to bring his body to the temple to be healed.

    Ben protects innocents. Children are innocents. Ben lost his innocence when RA took him into the temple. The rule Widmore broke is he killed a true innocent, Alex.

    April 10, 2009 2:26[/quote]

    * * * * *

    How do we know that Locke knows whose shoes he’s wearing? I think he only knows they’re not his.

    Simple answer? They’re dress shoes. He took them and the socks off and put them in a bag so the wouldn’t get filled up with sand or get wet. He had taken them off before, on the beach.

    8) Jim

  471. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328880"]I probably sound like a broken record, here and on the LP, but when a character says something like “twenty years,” he or she is not counting down to the day, anymore than we real people do.[/quote]

    I agree with you JiG, and always have said the same thing. However, I don’t think ANYONE would say that 1992 (purge time) to 2004 (when Miles said it) or 2007 (when Widmore said it) is twenty years. So I was simply trying to figure out a way that Widmore could have been trying to get back to the island for “twenty years” and for it to make sense.

    : ) P

  472. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="328884"][quote comment="328834"]I rewatched too and here is what I got.

    I think Locke did the thing with the shoes to remind us who’s they were.

    I think they found the guns in the Hydra. I think the crate is holding Widmores body. Widmore sent Dexmond to Mrs. Hawdings because he knew whe was trying to send the O6 back and he wanted to follow them. Ilana and Co. are there to bring his body to the temple to be healed.

    Ben protects innocents. Children are innocents. Ben lost his innocence when RA took him into the temple. The rule Widmore broke is he killed a true innocent, Alex.

    April 10, 2009 2:26[/quote]

    * * * * *

    How do we know that Locke knows whose shoes he’s wearing? I think he only knows they’re not his.

    Simple answer? They’re dress shoes. He took them and the socks off and put them in a bag so the wouldn’t get filled up with sand or get wet. He had taken them off before, on the beach.

    8) Jim[/quote]
    ++++
    Locke wasn’t reminding us who’s shoes they were. The writers were. But taking off dress shoes makes sense too.

  473. Circus Mom says:

    I’ve been exhiled. I can’t find TLI. I’m on someone elses computer.

  474. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328891"]I’ve been exhiled. I can’t find TLI. I’m on someone elses computer.[/quote]

    You know who can help you? Ben F Cavier! 546

    : ) P

  475. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="328856"][quote comment="328280"][quote comment="328264"][quote comment="328255"][quote comment="328254"]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n3eH1jI8AZ8/Sd1YgQw89DI/AAAAAAAAPp0/uEd7fm2S-bY/s1600-h/512+glyphs+image.jpg

    Screenshot is up for everyone LOL[/quote]
    ____________________________
    Thanks Tasha! It still REMINDS me of John’s little boy drawing though. Just the way it is layed out, something about it.[/quote]

    True. That’s got to be Anubis. Thing is….I am not sure if that is what the statue with 4 toes will be, but I don’t know. I also found this really cool article since you seem interested….

    http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/shadow.htm%5B/quote%5D

    ++++++++++++++++++

    Too lazy to write a long explanation which has already been given in the LaFleur thread.. but I’ll go on record saying the statue is not Anubis and it’s someone on the show (male character).. if I’m wrong you can have me ‘judged’[/quote]
    _______________________________
    You are wrong. The statue cannot be of someone on the show. It has a greater purpose and meaning behind it than that. Come on man stop dreamin![/quote]

    * * * * *

    The fact that the statue is of (or maybe appears to be of) someone on the show would not mean it has no purpose or meaning.

    8) Jim

  476. cherry-Miss.Awesome says:

    OMG-Was My reaction to this episode. This episode was bit of a nail bitter (one of those episode that i slept with my lamp on 7 tried not to dream about lost lol)

    My thoughts on this episode was that the writers did a good job.Im feeling that they are starting to bring back that raw emotion that we felt in season 1&2. I have many thoughts on the lost characters through out this episode I will start out with Ben and so on let me know what ya think if im wrong let me know if i repeated anyone soory theres so many blogs i wasnt able to reas all of them just the most recent ones.

    Ben&Desmond thought : while reading lospedia today i stumbled across refrences to Stephen King books and the specific one is called Dead Zone this week episode dead is dead(refrence)in the book there are incrediable similarites to Desmond and the main character In the book after the main charcter leave seclusion like desmond and finds his lover again in or case penny he is shot dead but we dont really know what happened to desmond after he beats up ben and we dont know how ben go out of the water(did ben get out of the water then shot desmond or did we miss the gun shoot wounds for the first shot they may have landed desmond into the hospital perhapts that is why ben tells john and sun to apologize to desmond if he dosent make it out? just a thought.

    Another thought i had is that why doesnt the smoke monster ever go to the beach and just lurks in the jungle?

    I also have a wizard of oz comparison thought
    *is Walt dorthy and did henry gale come to save him?
    *or is locke dorthy being that he was given shoes . that was perhaphs taken a way from the wicked witches sister in or case jacks father and because of that there has to be the wicked with of the west wich im thinking may be ben who is trying to steal the metaphoric ruby slippers from locke and richard a. or witmore may be the good witch of the north?

    far fetched i know but thats my thoughts had so much more about this episode but dont want to bore u guyz with no more.Thankx

    Mrs.Awesome ,yup i am :)

  477. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328900"]we dont really know what happened to desmond after he beats up ben and we dont know how ben go out of the water(did ben get out of the water then shot desmond or did we miss the gun shoot wounds for the first shot they may have landed desmond into the hospital perhapts that is why ben tells john and sun to apologize to desmond if he dosent make it out? just a thought.[/quote]

    Desmond suffered no bullet wound from the gunshot that we SAW. I watched and rewatched. The shot explodes the milk and knocks him DOWN, but does not hit him. (My guess is it hit a can of Kahana Lima Beans.)

    I think (rather I HOPE) that Ben is apologizing to Desmond for even THINKING about killing Penny and hurting him. I think that Ben finally realizes that the vengeance he wanted was wrong.

    : ) P

  478. wingman says:

    I can die now with no regrets^^…I finally know what the monster is (or do I?)…That might have been the best episode ever…I also loved the fact that my theory from back in season2 was somewhat validated that the monster was a systematic collection of memories that can manifest itself into whatever exists in it’s bank…This episode also clears up Mr. Eko’s death which was also a treat…But the biggest treat this episode was one Mr. Benjamin Linus…

    Ben is simply an amazing character on every level…He never stops, he always takes it to the next extreme, to the next breaking point…Everytime it seems like Locke evens the field he just erases that advantage and takes it to the next vantage point (Like killing Ceaser when he had manipulated him to stop Locke–The amazingness of that moment goes without words)…In the end though even Ben’s master manipulation skills (which he even used on Widmore as a young man by trying to force him to kill that baby), is humbled in comparison to the power of the monster…Even at that point of clear fear and desperation, HE STILL was thinking about scenarios inwhich he could kill Locke!! Even after being judged by the monster!! The man just has a default ability to not let anyone box him in, even in this current situation inwhich he had no hope…I know he will be haunted by the words of Alex, but I still believe that man will play a final card in the end…He just has an insatiable desire to be that final chesspiece and I still think he will somehow…

    Ben will be subdued for atleast the rest of this season and it should be nice to see the relationship between him and Locke, because they are essentially each others best friend in a wicked way…Locke having the knowledge and Ben having to be submissive will be awesome to watch for now…However in the end, when push comes to shove, I still expect Ben to be Ben, which is an utterly epic and amazing character…

    The dope thing about Ben is that as manipulative and enigmatic as he appears, there are moments when you can see the child-like honesty and purity in his character (Like right before he was gonna kill Penny or when explaining to Sun how scared of Locke he really was)…That mofo is driven by so many things, but his areas of grey standout amongst the black and white…Make no mistakes I won’t glorify the atrocities he has committed, but just as a discussion in character dynamics, this guy is a BEAST!!

  479. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="328715"][quote comment="328710"]Ilana told Sayid that she was hired to take him to Guam where the family of the guy he shot on the golf course lives and wants to deal with him. How would she have known that Sayid killed that guy on the golf course? from Widmore? That’s why I think she must be working for him.
    Any thoughts?[/quote]
    ++++++++
    Yeah that’s kind of weird. So far we have seen Ben involved with getting Jack, Kate, and Locke on the plane. Did we see he was involved with Hurley or Sun? I assume he was as I thought he did Sayid. But maybe not, if Ilana does work for Widmore, maybe Widmore got Sayid on the plane. Thanks for confusing me.:)[/quote]
    +++++++
    I thing Ben wanted to get Sayid on the plane but couldn’t. He looked genuanly supprised to see Sayid in the Airport.

  480. Rumblestilskin says:

    FlyBoy Said:

    * Twice Ben asks John smugly: “do you dissaprove of that?” in reference to things Ben did when he was a leader. One was at the office when Locke said that it seemed too ‘corporate’ for Ben to be leading from behind a desk, and the second time when John questions Ben on why they moved to the barracks after purging Dharma. Both times John seemed to think that those things would not be something the island or jacob wanted. Ben to Locke: “you don’t know what the island wants”. Locke back to Ben “are you sure about that Ben?”. Love it!!!!!!!!!!! Very interesting since Ben told Locke: “Jacob doesn’t like technology like you Locke” before they entered Jacob’s cabin. Even Ben realizes that Locke has a much deeper connection and is far more special than he.
    ———————————————-
    I also remember, on the episode where Locke blows up the sub, He’s in Ben’s house, and he tells Ben that if he(Ben) had any idea what this island wants, that he wouldnt be keeping leftovers in the fridge.

    I think your right on with your comment.

  481. LostJunkie says:

    Circus Mom (comment 482), you’re right on target in your belief that Ben and Sayid are both genuinely surprised to see each other when they board Flight 316. So it’s pretty clear to me that Ben didn’t hire Ilana. I think the theory that she’s on Team Widmore makes a lot of sense, and I like the idea that Widmore could own Ajira Airways.

  482. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328811"]Great Episode, the Smoke Monster a.k.a the “mirror of karma” around Ben was cheesy but still a great ep. Speaking of Ben, I agree with Flyboy, he has been, is and always will be full of it. He tells people exactly what they want to hear and he doesn’t give out any info he doesn’t need to.

    With that being said, I agree with all the Egyptian references through the show and on this blog, but a lot of things lately have reminded me more of The Tibetan Book of the Dead.

    This might have been discussed in previous thread but when you get a minute, Wikipedia the word Samsara. While your there, type in Buddhism and look at the “Wheel of Life / Dharma”…look familiar??? Also, the The Four Noble Truths might also shed light to what some of these character are experiencing.

    The writes have always indicated the characters are not in purgatory, have they confirmed they aren’t in some state of Samsara???

    P.S. I know some of these terms are related to both Buddhist and Hindu belief, please correct me if I’m wrong about anything.

    Thoughts?[/quote]
    ________

    I have been researching the Wheel of Time/Life and Wheel of the Bible. Don’t forget what many say…..The story of Buddhism might be said to have begun with a loss of innocence. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know I know exactly what you are talking about. LOL

  483. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328818"]Hello, i’m new here and may be it’s not a fresh idea.

    Is it possible that Ajira survivors are now suffering some kind of mental disease, like french expedition before them? so they just shoot themselves, like rousseau’s team.

    Another thing about this Disease theory is that on the beach Lapidus meets the guy, who shouts that Illana and others are now in control and they behaving very strange. And they weren’t behaving in any way strange before that ep.

    And another implication of this ‘mental disease’ – could it be possible that Purge is not what it seems, and Dharma people just killed one another, as a result of a Virus we’re heard so much.

    The great chest Ajira survivors moving everywhere looks like a real pandora box! and why they take it to the boats, in Lapidus return scene?[/quote]
    _________

    I really like your theory. Maybe they were enlightened and now have a bigger mission. Not sure it’s a disease, but they are either brainwashed or possessed. Something just doesn’t quite add up to me and yours makes the most sense TO ME at the moment.

  484. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328856"][quote comment="328280"][quote comment="328264"][quote comment="328255"][quote comment="328254"]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n3eH1jI8AZ8/Sd1YgQw89DI/AAAAAAAAPp0/uEd7fm2S-bY/s1600-h/512+glyphs+image.jpg

    Screenshot is up for everyone LOL[/quote]
    ____________________________
    Thanks Tasha! It still REMINDS me of John’s little boy drawing though. Just the way it is layed out, something about it.[/quote]

    True. That’s got to be Anubis. Thing is….I am not sure if that is what the statue with 4 toes will be, but I don’t know. I also found this really cool article since you seem interested….

    http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/shadow.htm%5B/quote%5D

    ++++++++++++++++++

    Too lazy to write a long explanation which has already been given in the LaFleur thread.. but I’ll go on record saying the statue is not Anubis and it’s someone on the show (male character).. if I’m wrong you can have me ‘judged’[/quote]
    _______________________________
    You are wrong. The statue cannot be of someone on the show. It has a greater purpose and meaning behind it than that. Come on man stop dreamin![/quote]
    ___________________________________

    I think the statue is of someone else, whether it’s a God or person on the island, ONLY because they showed us Anubis on the wall this week. I think that is why we didn’t get to see the front of it. It hasn’t been that many episodes since we saw it and if it was Anubis they would have just showed us. Even if we saw Anubis(the statue) it wouldn’t have changed anything about what we saw this week. I don’t know how to put what I am thinking down, but we got to see Anubis on the wall, so why not the statue? It has to be something more shocking than that. JMO.

  485. Duke says:

    [quote comment="328329"]I’m still hooked to what Ilana said when Lapitus came back about that shadow of the statue.
    Can it be just a code, or a more profound hidden meaning ? She might also have found some maps and statue drawings in ex-Ben’s office… ?[/quote]
    _____________________________
    Desmond also had a code phrase when someone new showed up to the hatch. Could Ilana also be part of something and uses the riddle to see who else she can trusts?

  486. alex says:

    so the writers went on strike, perhaps the viewers should! This series is too frustrating, and if things don’t conclude and explain themselves I ‘ll feel so cheated – I’ll want all that time back!

  487. alex says:

    so the writers went on strike, perhaps the viewers should! This series is too frustrating, and if things don’t conclude and explain themselves I ‘ll feel so cheated – I’ll want all that time back!

  488. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328701"][quote comment="328671"]
    Smokey is def. mysterious in why he kills. The first pilot was just sitting in his capt’s chair doing nothing…Keamy’s group managed to get away too. He dragged Locke at one point but let go…why?[/quote]
    Like Jimmy Walker used to say, DY-NO-MITE.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Oh yea…but what about the rest? LOL

  489. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328852"][quote comment="328263"][quote comment="328246"][quote comment="328232"] He COULD have killed Penny and didnt, he the lowered the gun because they had a baby[/quote]
    Not killing Penny wasn’t really by choice although he did lower the gun. Who knows had Des not intervened if he still would have done it.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    It was the same scene as when he was supposed to kill Danielle.

    Looks like Ben just might be a ‘good’ guy after all, just willing to do ALMOST anything for the island.[/quote]
    ___________________________________________
    Just because he is doing what he does for the island doesn’t make him good. Hitler also thought what he was doing was for the greater good. I do not think anyone would consider him to be good.

    Killing Penny wasn’t FOR the island. IT was for revenge. Not really understanding your coments this week Hammer something wrong. You sick or something? Not really on top of your game.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++=
    Hitler would have killed whether there was a child or not, Ben backed down both times…he didn’t kill Penny…just wanted to, realized he shouldn’t and got a butt whoopin.

  490. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328940"]I think the statue is of someone else, whether it’s a God or person on the island, ONLY because they showed us Anubis on the wall this week. I think that is why we didn’t get to see the front of it. It hasn’t been that many episodes since we saw it and if it was Anubis they would have just showed us. Even if we saw Anubis(the statue) it wouldn’t have changed anything about what we saw this week. I don’t know how to put what I am thinking down, but we got to see Anubis on the wall, so why not the statue? It has to be something more shocking than that. JMO.[/quote]

    My thoughts are that it is the island’s VERSION of Anubis or Tawaret, but with four toes and more human features. I still stand behind the idea that it will be Juliet’s face. It is definitely her back, possibly Kate’s, but I like Juliet because of the tie to Tawaret’s being the goddess of pregnancy and childbirth. I think THAT would be pretty *shocking*, don’t you?

    : ) P

  491. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328965"][quote comment="328940"]I think the statue is of someone else, whether it’s a God or person on the island, ONLY because they showed us Anubis on the wall this week. I think that is why we didn’t get to see the front of it. It hasn’t been that many episodes since we saw it and if it was Anubis they would have just showed us. Even if we saw Anubis(the statue) it wouldn’t have changed anything about what we saw this week. I don’t know how to put what I am thinking down, but we got to see Anubis on the wall, so why not the statue? It has to be something more shocking than that. JMO.[/quote]

    My thoughts are that it is the island’s VERSION of Anubis or Tawaret, but with four toes and more human features. I still stand behind the idea that it will be Juliet’s face. It is definitely her back, possibly Kate’s, but I like Juliet because of the tie to Tawaret’s being the goddess of pregnancy and childbirth. I think THAT would be pretty *shocking*, don’t you?

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++
    As much as you think it’s female…I think it’s male…I’m sticking with RA. :)

  492. PJSander says:

    For those who think that the carvings on the temple wall were similar to LockeBoy’s drawing of Smokey, I disagree. I took a better look at both and the only real similarity is that a version of Smokey appears in both.

    Here is LockeBoy’s drawing:

    http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/d/d6/LockeDrawingSmokey.jpg

    And here is the temple wall:

    http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/4/4b/RaMonster.jpg

    FWIW, the symbol at the bottom between Anubis and Smokey is either “water” or the letter “n”. For the eye in the middle, I could not find a direct translation – but there is “the eye of horus” which represents fractions, but doesn’t really look like that eye. It could also be the symbol for “day or time” inside the symbol for mouth.

    : ) P

  493. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="328965"][quote comment="328940"]I think the statue is of someone else, whether it’s a God or person on the island, ONLY because they showed us Anubis on the wall this week. I think that is why we didn’t get to see the front of it. It hasn’t been that many episodes since we saw it and if it was Anubis they would have just showed us. Even if we saw Anubis(the statue) it wouldn’t have changed anything about what we saw this week. I don’t know how to put what I am thinking down, but we got to see Anubis on the wall, so why not the statue? It has to be something more shocking than that. JMO.[/quote]

    My thoughts are that it is the island’s VERSION of Anubis or Tawaret, but with four toes and more human features. I still stand behind the idea that it will be Juliet’s face. It is definitely her back, possibly Kate’s, but I like Juliet because of the tie to Tawaret’s being the goddess of pregnancy and childbirth. I think THAT would be pretty *shocking*, don’t you?

    : ) P[/quote]
    ____________

    I will buy that. Not shocking to all of us of course but pretty shocking LOL. I

  494. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328898"][quote comment="328856"][quote comment="328280"][quote comment="328264"][quote comment="328255"][quote comment="328254"]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n3eH1jI8AZ8/Sd1YgQw89DI/AAAAAAAAPp0/uEd7fm2S-bY/s1600-h/512+glyphs+image.jpg

    [/quote]
    ____________________________
    [/quote]

    [/quote]

    ++++++++++++++++++

    Too lazy to write a long explanation which has already been given in the LaFleur thread.. but I’ll go on record saying the statue is not Anubis and it’s someone on the show (male character).. if I’m wrong you can have me ‘judged’[/quote]
    _______________________________
    You are wrong. The statue cannot be of someone on the show. It has a greater purpose and meaning behind it than that. Come on man stop dreamin![/quote]

    * * * * *

    The fact that the statue is of (or maybe appears to be of) someone on the show would not mean it has no purpose or meaning.

    8) Jim[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++=
    I agree Jim, to me…if it’s a character on the show…it would have huge implications and meaning.

  495. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328847"]I dont have time to read all of the above comments so forgive me if this theory was already said…
    [/quote]
    A little friendly advice – if you don’t take the time to read what everyone else wrote, why should anyone take the time to read what you wrote?

    At the very least, you should search this page using some keywords from your theory – use CTRL-F to open up a search dialog box.

  496. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="328865"][quote comment="328853"]

    I’ve also been thinking a lot about Faraday’s notebook. I almost feel like he got it from a future version of himself (perhaps he’s writing it where ever he is now). He probably read it once not understanding any of it. But as events start to happen though, the notes start to become familiar. What do you think?[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    I agree he either got it from a future or past self during a TT he doesn’t remember. I posted about this before…just don’t remember which thread at the moment.

  497. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328858"]With all this talk of time travel, I think one question that hasn’t been addressed, is when in time are the passengers of flt 316 in relation to the island’s time line? The “Others” had been living in the Dharma barracks up until Ben turned the wheel, but when Sun, Lapidus, Locke and Ben are at the barracks, they’ve obviously been in disrepair for some time.

    When Sawyer and the rest of the gang are jumping through time and get to their old camp, that camp is also a mess and obviously no one has been living there for some time. I think it’s pretty obvious who was chasing them in the boats, shooting at them when they took the canoe (Remember the Algeria water bottle in the bottom of the boat? And now the passengers of 316 have guns). So my question is, “When are Ben, Locke, Sun, Lapidus and the rest of the surviovrs of Algeria flt. 316?[/quote]
    I think the assumption (at lesat my assumption) has been that they are in the present, which in the storyline of the show is early 2008. In other words, they landed on Hydra Isand on the same day or the day after they took off from LA. But that hasn’t been proven in any way.

  498. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328858"]With all this talk of time travel, I think one question that hasn’t been addressed, is when in time are the passengers of flt 316 in relation to the island’s time line? The “Others” had been living in the Dharma barracks up until Ben turned the wheel, but when Sun, Lapidus, Locke and Ben are at the barracks, they’ve obviously been in disrepair for some time.[/quote]

    While we don’t know if it is time consistent with the “real time” take off of A316, it is at least AROUND that time since we saw the “thirty years earlier” pop up on screen and we know that Sawyer et al are in 1977.

    : ) P

  499. John says:

    Before this episode, I always thought there was one guy that was good and one that was evil between Charles and Ben, but it went back and forth so many times it was a mystery which was which. However, I am now convinced after the last episode that its neither, and that their vendetta with each is not as deep as I thought; just two people who really don’t like each other.

  500. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328878"]
    We know that Hurley “saw Charlie” three times (convenience store, interrogation room and lawn of the asylum) and that they spoke once (at the asylum). I think they probably spoke again afterward. Curiously, we never saw Charlie die; when that commo room on the Looking Glass flooded, it had to trap a bubble of air at the top. Charlie said, “I am dead. But I’m also here.” ….

    8) Jim[/quote]
    I think PJ stole Jim in Georgia’s handle.

    FWIW, I don’t think there’s anyway Charlie survived that. And if he did, it would really cheapen that whole storyline through the last few episodes of season 3.

  501. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="328995"]
    I think PJ stole Jim in Georgia’s handle.

    FWIW, I don’t think there’s anyway Charlie survived that. And if he did, it would really cheapen that whole storyline through the last few episodes of season 3.[/quote]

    ROFLOL. I thought the same thing! Glad to see there is someone else who thinks Charlie should/could have survived.

    I don’t know how it would cheapen the storyline, honestly. It was based on Charlie’s death. If he did survive, that would only be a good thing *g*.

    : ) P

  502. Rita says:

    [quote comment="328996"][quote comment="328995"]
    I think PJ stole Jim in Georgia’s handle.

    FWIW, I don’t think there’s anyway Charlie survived that. And if he did, it would really cheapen that whole storyline through the last few episodes of season 3.[/quote]

    ROFLOL. I thought the same thing! Glad to see there is someone else who thinks Charlie should/could have survived.

    I don’t know how it would cheapen the storyline, honestly. It was based on Charlie’s death. If he did survive, that would only be a good thing *g*.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ______________________________________
    Um, PJ and Jim, we DID see Charlie do the dead man’s float. Sorry. :(

  503. Toeknee says:

    [quote comment="328996"][quote comment="328995"]
    I think PJ stole Jim in Georgia’s handle.

    FWIW, I don’t think there’s anyway Charlie survived that. And if he did, it would really cheapen that whole storyline through the last few episodes of season 3.[/quote]

    ROFLOL. I thought the same thing! Glad to see there is someone else who thinks Charlie should/could have survived.

    I don’t know how it would cheapen the storyline, honestly. It was based on Charlie’s death. If he did survive, that would only be a good thing *g*.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ______________________

    I guess I’m thinking that it would invalidate all the emotions we experienced in season 3 and early season 4. The suspense of whether or not Desmond would be able to continue saving Charlie. Ms. Hawking’s statements about course correction, and Desmond repeating that theory to Charlie. The bittersweetness of Greatest Hits. The bravery Charlie exhibits in ultimately sacrificing himself. The sadness of his death, and of Claire learning of his death. I don’t know, to me it would feel like a bit of a cheat if it turns out he didn’t die.

    Also, upon future viewings, all of those episodes leading up to Charlies death would lose a little something, I think. I mean, when i rewatch the MASH episode where Henry Blake dies, I tear up every time, and I’ve probably seen that about 108 times. I’d imagine I would have the same reaction in re-watching Lost and Charlie’s death scene. But if it turns out Charlie didn’t die, those episodes won’t have the same emotional resonance. JMO.

  504. SilvanaFr says:

    first time poster so be kind guys! after reading all of your posts – i do read them all-i see no one mentioned that when ben walked into rousseau’s tent she said “you were the one who infected US” or something like that… she didn’t said “infected THEM”, wich should mean she has something as well? i don’t know what you think, but it kind of got my attention, and i’d love to hear what you all think since you have such interestig theories!

    also, i see a lot of pepople still have some issues with the WHH thing, i read somewhere a really cool ans simple explanation…. it’s not a loop, it’s a pretzel… if you draw a straight line that represents time as it is, in a linear fashion, and aboveit you draw a pretzel or something like it wich represents the losties timeline… it’s not forward, it goes back and forth, so while the losties are going through it, they could end up either in the past, or the future if our point of reference is the straight line, but it will always be present for them, ergo, WHH. Not sure i’m making myself clear…. but who is when it comes to LOST right?

  505. Shadow says:

    [quote comment="328850"][quote comment="328710"]Ilana told Sayid that she was hired to take him to Guam where the family of the guy he shot on the golf course lives and wants to deal with him. How would she have known that Sayid killed that guy on the golf course? from Widmore? That’s why I think she must be working for him.
    Any thoughts?[/quote]

    I don’t think it would be to much of a stretch that Ben ratted him out. He’s trying to get everyone back to the island. Ben might have even hired her, told her where he was and was adamant about her and Sayid getting on the Algeria flight. There’s no reason to believe that she had any direct contact with the family and Ben could easily have posed as them over the phone or through some other intermediary.[/quote]

    But, Ilana clearly came to the island for a purpose under someone’s orders.

  506. Halliwax says:

    [quote comment="328856"][quote comment="328280"][quote comment="328264"][quote comment="328255"][quote comment="328254"]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n3eH1jI8AZ8/Sd1YgQw89DI/AAAAAAAAPp0/uEd7fm2S-bY/s1600-h/512+glyphs+image.jpg

    Screenshot is up for everyone LOL[/quote]
    ____________________________
    Thanks Tasha! It still REMINDS me of John’s little boy drawing though. Just the way it is layed out, something about it.[/quote]

    True. That’s got to be Anubis. Thing is….I am not sure if that is what the statue with 4 toes will be, but I don’t know. I also found this really cool article since you seem interested….

    http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/shadow.htm%5B/quote%5D

    ++++++++++++++++++

    Too lazy to write a long explanation which has already been given in the LaFleur thread.. but I’ll go on record saying the statue is not Anubis and it’s someone on the show (male character).. if I’m wrong you can have me ‘judged’[/quote]
    _______________________________
    You are wrong. The statue cannot be of someone on the show. It has a greater purpose and meaning behind it than that. Come on man stop dreamin![/quote]

    +++++++++++++++++++++

    Duke – You’re entitled to that opinion and you may be right… but I’m going to disagree for now and direct you to the LaFleur thread posts 215 and 444 to be specific to shed some light on the topic as I see it for yourself and anyone else interested.

    PJ – I saw that you think the 4TS is female.. I’m 100% sure it’s not.. females were depicted with modesty in ancient Egypt.. fully clothed.. males were depicted in knee high skirts as the statue is.. if females were depicted topless.. it would still be with an ankle long skirt rather than the short one characteristic of males or our statue.. if you go back in historical perspective to the predynastic times then you could find females depicted fully nude but the quality of sculpting was much more archaic and the sculptures themselves were no bigger than an action figure

    Hammer – it very well may be Alpert.. I think you have yourself another runway.. I’m going to jump on your bandwagon while still riding the Faraday for 4TS 2010 (AD and BC) bandwagon simultaneously

    I read some posts earlier that noted the presence of hieroglyphics in Ben’s chamber, Smokey’s lair, etc… just want to clarify that those were NOT hieroglyphics as written by the ancient Egyptians during the Old, Middle, and New Kingdoms (during which they worshipped the gods and goddesses of which Anubis was one).. in fact they are symbols from a form of Egyptian language predating the pharaonic periods and the advent of hieroglyphics as we know them.. so this tells us that the civilization that inhabited the island predates even egyptian civilization.. in other words the ancestors of both civilizations are one and the same (and no they’re not aliens for whomever brought that up – please don’t that really insults the historical/archaeological/modern day Egyptian community as a whole – and their’s no way in he** the producers would take the show in that direction because this isn’t Indiana Jones 4).. I’m fairly certain D&C wanted us to catch this to build up more island mythos.. not something the casual viewer would pick up on however (I do want to add that this creates a historal inconsistency because the Egyptian inhabitants of the 4th millennium BC predynastic period did not possess advanced stoneworking techniques and tools, profound geometric understanding, or the requisite willing manpower to create a well sculpted statue of those proportions – but who cares its just a tv show)

  507. Rita says:

    Halliwax, it is wonderful to have someone of your expertise to shed some light here for the rest of us – thank you! I never would have caught that Ben’s tunnel markings were not hieroglyphs but actually older than that. Again thank you!
    I am thinking that the island is most likely criss-crossed with similar tunnels that all eventually lead to the Temple. Maybe even Ben doesn’t know that, or as someone else suggested, he would have sent Alex, Danielle, and Karl THAT way to safety rather than send them into harm’s (Keamy’s) way.

  508. Jay says:

    [quote comment="329067"]Halliwax, it is wonderful to have someone of your expertise to shed some light here for the rest of us – thank you! I never would have caught that Ben’s tunnel markings were not hieroglyphs but actually older than that. Again thank you!
    I am thinking that the island is most likely criss-crossed with similar tunnels that all eventually lead to the Temple. Maybe even Ben doesn’t know that, or as someone else suggested, he would have sent Alex, Danielle, and Karl THAT way to safety rather than send them into harm’s (Keamy’s) way.[/quote]
    ***
    -Why does Dharma use the “pre-egyptian” symbols if they are so old- remember the 108 minute countdown clock? How does Dharma fit into this usage?

    -Is the temple also “pre-egyptian” architecture or another culture we will recognize?

    -Why did the ancient others (thousands of years ago) build the wall to hide the temple from prying eyes (according to Ben): how crowded was the island? Or was it part of the mainland and later broke away?

    -It may be coincidence but the show occurred on the second night of Passover which records the story of the Jews escaping eygpt with all of the associated plagues (killing of the 1st born?) And Ben, standing in the swirling black smoke, provided associations with the movie “The Ten Commandments – at least to my wife and I.” Is this more linkage to Biblical myths – I come back to the names Aaron and Jacob for starters.

    Just random thoughts as I watches the episode. Comments welcome.

  509. Rita says:

    [quote comment="329074"][quote comment="329067"]Halliwax, it is wonderful to have someone of your expertise to shed some light here for the rest of us – thank you! I never would have caught that Ben’s tunnel markings were not hieroglyphs but actually older than that. Again thank you!
    I am thinking that the island is most likely criss-crossed with similar tunnels that all eventually lead to the Temple. Maybe even Ben doesn’t know that, or as someone else suggested, he would have sent Alex, Danielle, and Karl THAT way to safety rather than send them into harm’s (Keamy’s) way.[/quote]
    ***
    -Why does Dharma use the “pre-egyptian” symbols if they are so old- remember the 108 minute countdown clock? How does Dharma fit into this usage?
    [/quote]
    ___________________________________
    I don’t think that Dharma “used” the Pre-Egyptian symbols – I don’t think Dharma actually built anything but the pre-fab houses and the stations. The tunnels were likely already there and were just tapped into by Dharma but probably never fulled explored (as evidenced by Ben’s seeming unfamiliarity with his surroundings at his “judgeing”)

  510. Rita says:

    [quote comment="329079"][quote comment="329074"][quote comment="329067"] [/quote]
    ***
    -Why does Dharma use the “pre-egyptian” symbols if they are so old- remember the 108 minute countdown clock? How does Dharma fit into this usage?
    [/quote]
    ___________________________________
    [/quote]
    Wait, I gottcha now – the symbols on the count down clock. Halliwax are these Pre-Egyptian as well? Maybe these symbols are present at different points/places on the island, and are being used (as in copied) by Dharma to reference these places, without actually referring to their original meanings.

  511. Halliwax says:

    [quote comment="329081"][quote comment="329079"][quote comment="329074"][quote comment="329067"] [/quote]
    ***
    -Why does Dharma use the “pre-egyptian” symbols if they are so old- remember the 108 minute countdown clock? How does Dharma fit into this usage?
    [/quote]
    ___________________________________
    [/quote]
    Wait, I gottcha now – the symbols on the count down clock. Halliwax are these Pre-Egyptian as well? Maybe these symbols are present at different points/places on the island, and are being used (as in copied) by Dharma to reference these places, without actually referring to their original meanings.[/quote]

    +++++++++++++

    The countdown clock symbols are hieroglyphs rather than the earlier form of language we see in smokey’s lair.. it seems like Dharma adopted certain island elements for their own usage if they in fact did create the 108 min device

  512. Halliwax says:

    [quote comment="329074"][quote comment="329067"]Halliwax, it is wonderful to have someone of your expertise to shed some light here for the rest of us – thank you! I never would have caught that Ben’s tunnel markings were not hieroglyphs but actually older than that. Again thank you!
    I am thinking that the island is most likely criss-crossed with similar tunnels that all eventually lead to the Temple. Maybe even Ben doesn’t know that, or as someone else suggested, he would have sent Alex, Danielle, and Karl THAT way to safety rather than send them into harm’s (Keamy’s) way.[/quote]
    ***
    -Why does Dharma use the “pre-egyptian” symbols if they are so old- remember the 108 minute countdown clock? How does Dharma fit into this usage?

    -Is the temple also “pre-egyptian” architecture or another culture we will recognize?

    -Why did the ancient others (thousands of years ago) build the wall to hide the temple from prying eyes (according to Ben): how crowded was the island? Or was it part of the mainland and later broke away?

    -It may be coincidence but the show occurred on the second night of Passover which records the story of the Jews escaping eygpt with all of the associated plagues (killing of the 1st born?) And Ben, standing in the swirling black smoke, provided associations with the movie “The Ten Commandments – at least to my wife and I.” Is this more linkage to Biblical myths – I come back to the names Aaron and Jacob for starters.

    Just random thoughts as I watches the episode. Comments welcome.[/quote]

    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    Jay – they haven’t really given us a view of the temple yet.. only the wall/barrier outside of it.. so we can’t say yet what civilization the architecture mimics.. but I’m sure it will be Egyptian.. who knows it may be a pyramid.. how crazy would that be.. or it may be a temple similar to the one at Abu Simbel, Egypt which Ramses II built for himself and his favorite wife Nefertari.. beautiful awe inspiring work of art and engineering.. believe me it’s jaw dropping when you see it.. I wouldn’t be shocked if they made the temple something similar to that but with someone we know represented by the statues

  513. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="329074"][quote comment="329067"]Halliwax, it is wonderful to have someone of your expertise to shed some light here for the rest of us – thank you! I never would have caught that Ben’s tunnel markings were not hieroglyphs but actually older than that. Again thank you!
    I am thinking that the island is most likely criss-crossed with similar tunnels that all eventually lead to the Temple. Maybe even Ben doesn’t know that, or as someone else suggested, he would have sent Alex, Danielle, and Karl THAT way to safety rather than send them into harm’s (Keamy’s) way.[/quote]
    ***
    -Why does Dharma use the “pre-egyptian” symbols if they are so old- remember the 108 minute countdown clock? How does Dharma fit into this usage?

    -Is the temple also “pre-egyptian” architecture or another culture we will recognize?

    -Why did the ancient others (thousands of years ago) build the wall to hide the temple from prying eyes (according to Ben): how crowded was the island? Or was it part of the mainland and later broke away?

    -It may be coincidence but the show occurred on the second night of Passover which records the story of the Jews escaping eygpt with all of the associated plagues (killing of the 1st born?) And Ben, standing in the swirling black smoke, provided associations with the movie “The Ten Commandments – at least to my wife and I.” Is this more linkage to Biblical myths – I come back to the names Aaron and Jacob for starters.

    Just random thoughts as I watches the episode. Comments welcome.[/quote]
    ______

    It kind of leads to the book of Abraham…..IMO

  514. wally p says:

    [quote comment="329003"]first time poster so be kind guys! after reading all of your posts – i do read them all-i see no one mentioned that when ben walked into rousseau’s tent she said “you were the one who infected US” or something like that… she didn’t said “infected THEM”, wich should mean she has something as well? i don’t know what you think, but it kind of got my attention, and i’d love to hear what you all think since you have such interestig theories!

    also, i see a lot of pepople still have some issues with the WHH thing, i read somewhere a really cool ans simple explanation…. it’s not a loop, it’s a pretzel… if you draw a straight line that represents time as it is, in a linear fashion, and aboveit you draw a pretzel or something like it wich represents the losties timeline… it’s not forward, it goes back and forth, so while the losties are going through it, they could end up either in the past, or the future if our point of reference is the straight line, but it will always be present for them, ergo, WHH. Not sure i’m making myself clear…. but who is when it comes to LOST right?[/quote]

    simple answers are the best. After rewatching the WHH episode I realized that MIles said that no matter where they are, whatever happened in the past OR the future has already happened… after Ben turned the wheel. Its like once the wheel is turned anyone on the island goes to a point in time AFTER their lives (maybe even after mankind) and becomes part of your aforementioned pretzyl. Allowing them to be anywhere. The island puts people where the island see’s them fit. (but only since they were there when the wheel spun. before the wheel spun it could have been someone else in that place) yes, no?

    Remember Widmore said he had been having crazy dreams -lately- to Ben. maybe a result of the wheel.

    Halliwax- Thank you for calling out the alien theory. I didn’t like it much myself, but it did happen in Indiana Jones 4. I dont think Richard ALpert is really an Alien, lke with a spaceship and stuff. Other worldly may be a better term. Liked the egyptian stuff too.

    Again, still going with Shadow of the statue being code, but is it possible that they are looking for one person that is supposed to know this answer? (Richard?) I still want Frank Lapidus to be an egyptian. His first appearance in the 316 ep made me think he was likened to Richard somehow. Now Llanas crew is taking him…>>>

  515. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="328997"][quote comment="328996"][quote comment="328995"]
    I think PJ stole Jim in Georgia’s handle.

    FWIW, I don’t think there’s anyway Charlie survived that. And if he did, it would really cheapen that whole storyline through the last few episodes of season 3.[/quote]

    ROFLOL. I thought the same thing! Glad to see there is someone else who thinks Charlie should/could have survived.

    I don’t know how it would cheapen the storyline, honestly. It was based on Charlie’s death. If he did survive, that would only be a good thing *g*.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ______________________________________
    Um, PJ and Jim, we DID see Charlie do the dead man’s float. Sorry. :([/quote]

    * * * * *

    Last thing I remember seeing is him crossing himself (backwards). Cut — more or less — to Desmond saying, “Charlie’s dead!”

    Charlie and Montand are going to play a classical duet of “You All Everybody” for the assembled Others — No, not really

    8) Jim

  516. Rita says:

    [quote comment="329120"][quote comment="328997"][quote comment="328996"][quote comment="328995"]
    I think PJ stole Jim in Georgia’s handle.

    FWIW, I don’t think there’s anyway Charlie survived that. And if he did, it would really cheapen that whole storyline through the last few episodes of season 3.[/quote]

    ROFLOL. I thought the same thing! Glad to see there is someone else who thinks Charlie should/could have survived.

    I don’t know how it would cheapen the storyline, honestly. It was based on Charlie’s death. If he did survive, that would only be a good thing *g*.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ______________________________________
    Um, PJ and Jim, we DID see Charlie do the dead man’s float. Sorry. :([/quote]

    * * * * *

    Last thing I remember seeing is him crossing himself (backwards). Cut — more or less — to Desmond saying, “Charlie’s dead!”

    Charlie and Montand are going to play a classical duet of “You All Everybody” for the assembled Others — No, not really

    8) Jim[/quote]
    _________________________________
    I rewatched the “death scene” again :) He truly is seen floating dead after giving up some big bubbles. I’m afraid there is just no hope at all (sorry PJ!!) :)

  517. Gen 24:6 says:

    What if the “pointy ears” on the statue are not ears at all but the back side of a crown. The flat square is not on top of the head but the top front of the crown. The pointy part that we can see seems too high and too far back to be ears. Very common for egyptians to wear head dress/crowns.
    What about the conflict between the god set(represented by canine type animals; also considred dark/stormy/chaos) and horus the son of Osisris and Isis
    Also – Study the book of Genisis and look at the conflict between Jacob and Esau. Esau was a rugged, outdoors man, while Jacob was more of a mommas boy. Jacob tricked Esau out of his inheritance. Esau also left his home land to marry a woman against his families wishes.
    Finally, Jacob was the “father” of the 12 tribes of Isreal with his last son named Benjamin whose mother died while giving birth.

  518. Rita says:

    [quote comment="329133"]What if the “pointy ears” on the statue are not ears at all but the back side of a crown. The flat square is not on top of the head but the top front of the crown. The pointy part that we can see seems too high and too far back to be ears. Very common for egyptians to wear head dress/crowns.
    What about the conflict between the god set(represented by canine type animals; also considred dark/stormy/chaos) and horus the son of Osisris and Isis
    Also – Study the book of Genisis and look at the conflict between Jacob and Esau. Esau was a rugged, outdoors man, while Jacob was more of a mommas boy. Jacob tricked Esau out of his inheritance. Esau also left his home land to marry a woman against his families wishes.
    Finally, Jacob was the “father” of the 12 tribes of Isreal with his last son named Benjamin whose mother died while giving birth.[/quote]
    __________________________________-
    Interesting name – Gen 24:6 = “no, you must never take my son there”. I think you are on to something here.

  519. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="329015"]PJ – I saw that you think the 4TS is female.. I’m 100% sure it’s not.. females were depicted with modesty in ancient Egypt.. fully clothed.. males were depicted in knee high skirts as the statue is.. if females were depicted topless.. it would still be with an ankle long skirt rather than the short one characteristic of males or our statue.. if you go back in historical perspective to the predynastic times then you could find females depicted fully nude but the quality of sculpting was much more archaic and the sculptures themselves were no bigger than an action figure
    [/quote]

    I believe you, but I don’t agree with you. You see, *I* don’t think that our 4TS was built in a pre-Egyptian civilization. I think our 4TS was built to HONOR said civilization and in doing so, they chose their own model for the god/goddess. IMO, the back of the 4TS is one scrawny teenage boy if it is male.

    [quote comment="329015"]
    I read some posts earlier that noted the presence of hieroglyphics in Ben’s chamber, Smokey’s lair, etc… just want to clarify that those were NOT hieroglyphics as written by the ancient Egyptians during the Old, Middle, and New Kingdoms (during which they worshipped the gods and goddesses of which Anubis was one).. in fact they are symbols from a form of Egyptian language predating the pharaonic periods and the advent of hieroglyphics as we know them.. so this tells us that the civilization that inhabited the island predates even egyptian civilization.. in other words the ancestors of both civilizations are one and the same[/quote]

    If you look at the wall of the temple carefully, there are more than one kind of symbol. Different “fonts” if you will – some carved delicately, and some with a heavy hand. I believe that these carvings were also made more recently then you are suggesting, perhaps by different factions over the generations of “Others” since whenever.

    : ) P

  520. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="329123"]
    I rewatched the “death scene” again :) He truly is seen floating dead after giving up some big bubbles. I’m afraid there is just no hope at all (sorry PJ!!) :)[/quote]

    I am reticent to say this again (apologies to those who are sick of it), but since it has been brought UP again….

    Science says that there would be LARGE bubble of air in the hatch above the porthole. Charlie wouldn’t know this, so he would assume that he is going to die. He WENT there to die, after all. He made the sign of the cross, let out his remaining air and floated upward to die… only to discover that pocket of air where he could breathe normally for a period of time. Since we know he had the lung capacity to swim DOWN to the Looking Glass, there is a reason to believe that with a good deep breath, he could easily have swum (aided by natural buoyancy) to the surface.

    I fully recognize that Charlie’s survival at this point would not likely move the story forward. If his character were to have been reintroduced, it ought to have been by the end of season four.

    Regardless, science says he didn’t die.

    : ) P

  521. Circus Mom says:

    OK, so after an hour of research on caskets and their dimentions, etc. I am still going with Widmore, in his casket, is in the silver crate. Ilana & Co. are taking him to the temple. If I’m proven wrong, then OK, but I’m sticking with my theory.

    See what Lost has me doing, I’m now prepared to plan my internment one day. Everything is available from a plastic or cardboard (for creamation) box to a elaborate wooden or fiberglass monstrosity.

  522. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="329143"]OK, so after an hour of research on caskets and their dimentions, etc. I am still going with Widmore, in his casket, is in the silver crate. Ilana & Co. are taking him to the temple. If I’m proven wrong, then OK, but I’m sticking with my theory.

    [/quote]
    +++++++++++
    FWIW, CM…I LOVE this theory…and hope your are correct.

  523. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="329067"]Halliwax, it is wonderful to have someone of your expertise to shed some light here for the rest of us – thank you! I never would have caught that Ben’s tunnel markings were not hieroglyphs but actually older than that. Again thank you!
    [/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    I too appreciate it Halliwax.

    Seems to support the way the Others operated before Ben. They always seemed to sort of ‘morph’ into whatever the latest invaders were, taking on their clothing and weapons,etc.

    Maybe some ancient Egyptians got pulled onto the island in some way….etc, etc.

  524. Gen 24:6 says:

    [quote comment="329146"][quote comment="329067"]Halliwax, it is wonderful to have someone of your expertise to shed some light here for the rest of us – thank you! I never would have caught that Ben’s tunnel markings were not hieroglyphs but actually older than that. Again thank you!
    [/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    I too appreciate it Halliwax.

    Seems to support the way the Others operated before Ben. They always seemed to sort of ‘morph’ into whatever the latest invaders were, taking on their clothing and weapons,etc.

    Maybe some ancient Egyptians got pulled onto the island in some way….etc, etc.[/quote]

  525. Gen 24:6 says:

    That reminds me of Roman warfare; the Roman legion would take on the characteristics of thier opponents – tended to weaken their strengths.
    The way Charles came riding in on horseback, reminded me of a Roman soldier
    Remember Juliet spoke Latin, said she learned it from the others.
    Also the hierchy of command, soldier type units etc in the other community reminded me of Romanesque.
    Remember Egypt was an intregral part of the Roman Empire throughout history.
    Richard – egyptian???
    Charles – Roman??
    Just throwin it out there

  526. Mr $tuart says:

    I’m watching The Ten Commandments on ABC. The Passover scene, where the Angel of Death (appearing like a cloud of black smoke) goes through Egypt killing the first born son of every home not marked with sheep’s blood. It reminded me of Lost. Lost does have tons of Biblical references.

  527. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="329142"]
    Regardless, science says he didn’t die.
    [/quote]
    No, but Charlie, himself, SAID he was dead.

  528. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="329157"][quote comment="329146"][quote comment="329067"]Halliwax, it is wonderful to have someone of your expertise to shed some light here for the rest of us – thank you! I never would have caught that Ben’s tunnel markings were not hieroglyphs but actually older than that. Again thank you!
    [/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    I too appreciate it Halliwax.

    Seems to support the way the Others operated before Ben. They always seemed to sort of ‘morph’ into whatever the latest invaders were, taking on their clothing and weapons,etc.

    Maybe some ancient Egyptians got pulled onto the island in some way….etc, etc.[/quote][/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    I also look forward to hearing what you have to say on the subject Halliwax. I am very ignorant when it comes to that seeing as I have no background on the matter. Very interesting that the culture pre-dates ancient Egypt, but that makes perfect sense to me and where I think they are heading.

  529. Shadow says:

    If the statue is of someone we know, like Juliette, or Richard Alpert, wouldn’t the Losties freak out when they saw it? How many times have they seen the statue that we know of? They don’t seem to pay much attention to it really. Of course that could just be how the producers want it at this point, but I was just thinking. How weird would it be if Juliette saw a statue of herself?
    I don’t know…no one need comment. Its late, and it was just a thought that popped into my head.

  530. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="329177"]If the statue is of someone we know, like Juliette, or Richard Alpert, wouldn’t the Losties freak out when they saw it? How many times have they seen the statue that we know of? They don’t seem to pay much attention to it really. Of course that could just be how the producers want it at this point, but I was just thinking. How weird would it be if Juliette saw a statue of herself?
    I don’t know…no one need comment. Its late, and it was just a thought that popped into my head.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    As far as we know, they have only seen it twice…the first time was only one foot left of the destroyed statue and the second time, only from the back before they ‘skipped again’. So it seems that NONE of our Losties have seen the face yet.

  531. DIana says:

    I finally got through all comments. The only thing that really stands out at me from this ep is locke’s shoes. They made it a point to show locke taking off the shoes while talking to ben before getting on the outrigger. Once they got on the other island, he put them back on. Why make it a point to show that? Yeah he probably took them off so he would’nt get them wet but he’s back on the island wouldn’t he need more comfortable shoes anyway. Its like he knows the shoes are important. I think he probably went to go meet christian out in the jungle when sun told ben locke had to go do something. This is how he knew where to take ben. Any thoughts?

  532. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="329225"]I finally got through all comments. The only thing that really stands out at me from this ep is locke’s shoes. They made it a point to show locke taking off the shoes while talking to ben before getting on the outrigger. Once they got on the other island, he put them back on. Why make it a point to show that? Yeah he probably took them off so he would’nt get them wet but he’s back on the island wouldn’t he need more comfortable shoes anyway. Its like he knows the shoes are important. I think he probably went to go meet christian out in the jungle when sun told ben locke had to go do something. This is how he knew where to take ben. Any thoughts?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    I’ve been holding off the shoes thing. Mostly because someone else brought it up. When I watched the first time, it seemed odd they keep showing him taking them off and on. Also, they ARE important IMO. They are what was used to make the proxy. They were in the possesion of Gpa Ray (who I think we will see again). And there was that whole big deal about the white shoes…IDK.

    I am pretty sure that Locke is now regularly conversing with likes of CS and/or whisperers.

  533. Hammer says:

    Happy Easter to all that celebrate it.

    Happy Sunday to the rest of you. :)

  534. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="329234"]Happy Easter to all that celebrate it.

    Happy Sunday to the rest of you. :)[/quote]

    Gees, Hammer, what if I don’t recognize Sunday either! LOL. Same to you, and to all.

    As to the biblical references, I agree, there are many. There are also references to many world religions, past cultures and world literature. All I can say is that D&C and the writing and producing teams are filled with some super-smart dudes (and dudettes). Seriously.

    P

  535. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="329232"][quote comment="329225"]I finally got through all comments. The only thing that really stands out at me from this ep is locke’s shoes. They made it a point to show locke taking off the shoes while talking to ben before getting on the outrigger. Once they got on the other island, he put them back on. Why make it a point to show that? Yeah he probably took them off so he would’nt get them wet but he’s back on the island wouldn’t he need more comfortable shoes anyway. Its like he knows the shoes are important. I think he probably went to go meet christian out in the jungle when sun told ben locke had to go do something. This is how he knew where to take ben. Any thoughts?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    I’ve been holding off the shoes thing. Mostly because someone else brought it up. When I watched the first time, it seemed odd they keep showing him taking them off and on. Also, they ARE important IMO. They are what was used to make the proxy. They were in the possesion of Gpa Ray (who I think we will see again). And there was that whole big deal about the white shoes…IDK.

    I am pretty sure that Locke is now regularly conversing with likes of CS and/or whisperers.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++
    When I was watching S3E20 “The Man Behind The Curtain” on the WB last night, I noticed that when Richard and the hostiles met up with Ben in the barracks, none of them were wearing shoes.

  536. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="329203"][quote comment="329177"]If the statue is of someone we know, like Juliette, or Richard Alpert, wouldn’t the Losties freak out when they saw it? How many times have they seen the statue that we know of? They don’t seem to pay much attention to it really. Of course that could just be how the producers want it at this point, but I was just thinking. How weird would it be if Juliette saw a statue of herself?
    I don’t know…no one need comment. Its late, and it was just a thought that popped into my head.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    As far as we know, they have only seen it twice…the first time was only one foot left of the destroyed statue and the second time, only from the back before they ‘skipped again’. So it seems that NONE of our Losties have seen the face yet.[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    Right and Jin was the only one to see it both times.

  537. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="329133"]
    Also – Study the book of Genisis and look at the conflict between Jacob and Esau. Esau was a rugged, outdoors man, while Jacob was more of a mommas boy. Jacob tricked Esau out of his inheritance. Esau also left his home land to marry a woman against his families wishes.
    Finally, Jacob was the “father” of the 12 tribes of Isreal with his last son named Benjamin whose mother died while giving birth.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Thanks for the rehash on the Biblical reference. This has been brought up numerous times over the past 2 seasons.

  538. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="329143"]OK, so after an hour of research on caskets and their dimentions, etc. I am still going with Widmore, in his casket, is in the silver crate. Ilana & Co. are taking him to the temple. If I’m proven wrong, then OK, but I’m sticking with my theory.

    See what Lost has me doing, I’m now prepared to plan my internment one day. Everything is available from a plastic or cardboard (for creamation) box to a elaborate wooden or fiberglass monstrosity.[/quote]
    I don’t get it. Why would they need to bring Widmore to the temple?

  539. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="329174"]
    No, but Charlie, himself, SAID he was dead.[/quote]

    And he then said, “but I am also here.”

    I posited originally that he said, “I am dead,” because he was supposed to be dead and because he knew Hurley thought he was dead.

    No matter. Dead or alive, Charlie is not on the show. *sigh*

    : ) P

  540. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="329266"]

    No matter. Dead or alive, Charlie is not on the show. *sigh*

    : ) P[/quote]
    Thank God. He was very annoying.:)

    I remember what he said and find his choice of words very interesting. He wasn’t SUPPOSED to be dead, he is and told Hurley that. “I AM dead, but I am also here”. He didn’t say alive, he said here.

  541. hlcfym says:

    [quote comment="328426"]The phone call that Ben made to Widmore got me thinking.

    BEN: Doesn’t matter. What matters is I’m going back to the Island today.

    WIDMORE: The Island won’t let you come back, trust me. I’ve spent almost 20 years trying to return.

    BEN: Well, Charles, where you failed, I’m going to succeed… just as soon as I do one thing.

    I’m starting to believe that Widmore didn’t have a problem FINDING the ilsand, his problem was being ALLOWED to return. My theory is that the island only allows one “leader” to occupy it at a time. Therefore, in addition to Ben getting the vital info. from John, I think the other reason was that he knew he would have to kill the defacto leader in order to be granted access to the island. Also, I think that’s why he was so surprised to see John when he woke up. He knew that this meant the island had rejected him and that he had to be judged but there would be no more leader roles for him.[/quote]

    ************************************
    I love that theory

  542. JasonS says:

    Here’s hopefully something new for everyone, if not just a wide summary of events followed by rampant speculation.

    The conversation revisiting the statue in this thread got me thinking about a couple of things, how it got destroyed in the first place and how the Losties might ever get a chance to see its face. It would have to still exist, and they ideally need to be in the ocean facing it. So if this were to happen, they would also need to flash back far into the past.

    If the coming war is meant to protect the island, perhaps it is actually meant to prevent everything post-temple society from ever happening? After all, it is all of these events have ultimately led to the breakdown of the Utopian way of life on the island. That means: no H-bomb showing up in the 50s, no Dharma Initiative (and no Ben?), no baby-birthing problems, no Oceanic 6, no destroyed statue of deity, etc.

    Of course there’s the argument that whatever happened happened, i.e. you can’t change the past. However, just because you can’t change an event doesn’t mean you can’t change or avoid an entire time line. (Reference: Flyboy, “Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham”, comment #222). I don’t know if this image is published anywhere, but there is a brief glimpse of a “space-time” sketch that Caesar looks at in Ben’s files in “The Life and Death of JB” which suggests multiple time lines (including real and imaginary) might exist between different events (freeze frame roughly 2 min into episode). Is there more to time travel theory than WHH? My guess is yes.

    While I don’t agree with everything Al Trautwig says in his videos (Al’s blog is linked to by the creators of this blog on the main page), I’ve been sold on his theory that this is a game of sorts between Widmore and Ben. These two are at work trying to change this doomsday time line described by the Valenzetti Eqn (i.e. numbers). Since we don’t know how Widmore came to be on the island yet, we can’t say who the “good” side is. Both claim to have the islands best interests in mind. However, Ben is known to be a dishonest, diabolical, immature, “corporate” egomaniac and a killer. Widmore on the other hand, had extra-island affair and built a massive financial empire.

    Ok, let’s say the next time skip that unifies Losties ’77 with Losties ’07 puts them in the far past with full statue and all. What if the far past is the setting of the “upcoming” war (Reference: Duke and VaughnK, “LaFleur”, comment #168, and several others on that thread), including Ajira people and their mysterious crate? What if saving the island means a war to prevent this timeline from ever happening, and protecting the innocence of the island?

    I just hope this can inspire some fresh thoughts in all of you. Happy Easter.

  543. DocH says:

    [quote]
    I don’t get it. Why would they need to bring Widmore to the temple?
    [/quote]
    widmore broke the rules, like Ben. He needs to face his judge – Smokey. But he is not in the box on Hydra.

  544. DocH says:

    [quote]
    I don’t get it. Why would they need to bring Widmore to the temple?
    [/quote]
    widmore broke the rules, like Ben. He needs to face his judge – Smokey. But he is not in the box on Hydra.

  545. Lost Horizon says:

    Maybe the island is the Garden of Eden and the four-toed statue is the “cheribum” that guards against entrance into the garden? Maybe inside the temple is the tree of knowledge of good and evil and that’s how he “lost his innocence?” Maybe the smoke monster is the “flaming sword” described in Genesis also described as a protector of the tree?

    It might explain their immortality because once you eat from from the tree of life you have immortality.

    Has this theory already been discussed before?

    I’m sorry if this has been discussed in previous threads (I have three small children and don’t have the time or energy to read old threads…sorry).

  546. Lost Horizon says:

    Well, after I made that post I did a quick Internet search of Lost and the Garden of Eden. It’s clear that I’m not the only one with this theory.

  547. Rita says:

    [quote comment="329404"]Well, after I made that post I did a quick Internet search of Lost and the Garden of Eden. It’s clear that I’m not the only one with this theory.[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    I think it is worth looking at again, with all the new information we have. I like where you are going with this.

  548. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="329264"][quote comment="329143"]OK, so after an hour of research on caskets and their dimentions, etc. I am still going with Widmore, in his casket, is in the silver crate. Ilana & Co. are taking him to the temple. If I’m proven wrong, then OK, but I’m sticking with my theory.

    See what Lost has me doing, I’m now prepared to plan my internment one day. Everything is available from a plastic or cardboard (for creamation) box to a elaborate wooden or fiberglass monstrosity.[/quote]
    I don’t get it. Why would they need to bring Widmore to the temple?[/quote]
    ++++++++
    The temple is where they took Ben to heal and where Locke took Ben to get judged. It is more of a gut feeling than something based on evidance. I just don’t buy guns in the crate so I thought of what else it could be.

    I’ll wait and see what comes out.

  549. Lost Horizon says:

    [quote comment="329409"][quote comment="329404"]Well, after I made that post I did a quick Internet search of Lost and the Garden of Eden. It’s clear that I’m not the only one with this theory.[/quote]
    ____________________________________
    I think it is worth looking at again, with all the new information we have. I like where you are going with this.[/quote]

    ________________________________

    Please excuse the length of this, but it’s an excerpt from a wikipedia explanation of the fall of man:

    “The Fall of Man (also called “The Story of the Fall” or “The Fall”) is the story in the book of Genesis in the Torah (Old Testament) of when Adam and Eve, in God’s eyes, lost their innocence. Genesis says that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge even after God told them it was not allowed. Adam and Eve lost their innocence and were thrown out of the Garden of Eden, where the Tree of Knowledge was. In Christian religion, all of man lost their innocence because Adam and Eve disobeyed God and had to be punished, so man can now tell good from bad and life from death.”

    Okay…

    So this is just a theory…

    According to the Bible if you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil …. you lose your innocence.

    If you eat from the Tree of Life you live forever. The cherubim and the flaming sword were placed in the Garden of Eden so that Adam and Eve who partook of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil would not be allowed to partake of the Tree of Life. God did wanted to give them an opportunity to repent. Because they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (TKGE) they transgressed or sinned. If they ate from the Tree of Life before they repented then they would live forever in sin and not be able to return to God’s presence.

    So my theory is that Richard has partaken of the Tree of Life and is immortal. He took Ben into the Temple which protects the two trees and had him partake of the fruits of one or both of these trees. That’s why he “lost his innocence” and “is will always be one of us.”

    Maybe the hostiles are really just a group of people that have partaken of the Tree of Life or the TKGE?

    Maybe the reason why Ben keeps getting beat up but not killed is because he has partaken of the Tree of Life and is immortal?

    I’m sure a lot of you remember the references to Adam and Eve in the episode where Jack and Kate (I think) find the fresh water inland and find the skeletons of two bodies.

    If this is the Garden of Eden then I can see why it needs to be protected.

    Also, in the Bible Adam and Eve are banished from the Garden for sin. Widmore broke the rules (sinned) and was also bannished.

    Like I said before I think the four-toed statue could be the cherubim and the smoke monster could be the flaming sword that were both placed in the garden by God to protect the tree of life and the Garden of Eden.

    Now Adam and Eve needed the help of Jesus Christ in order to repent. Jesus is sometimes referred to as the Good Shepherd. Maybe “Christian Shepherd” (or Jack) character is a motif for Jesus? These kinds of motifs are used frequently in movies. While neither Jack or Christian are perfect maybe the writers are using them in that way.

  550. andre gr says:

    Does anyone know what is the name of Ben’s and Widmore’s mutual friend (the name of Penelope’s boat)?

    Just curious why it hasn’t be revealed yet and if it has any significance to the whole story.

  551. Barbaros says:

    to andre gr;

    The boat name is Our Mutual Friend.It is a book name which Desmond had. Desmond save this book for his bad times.Book Writer is Charles Dickens.

  552. Rita says:

    [quote comment="329416"][quote comment="329409"][quote comment="329404"][/quote]
    [/quote]
    So this is just a theory…

    According to the Bible if you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil …. you lose your innocence.

    If you eat from the Tree of Life you live forever. The cherubim and the flaming sword were placed in the Garden of Eden so that Adam and Eve who partook of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil would not be allowed to partake of the Tree of Life. God did wanted to give them an opportunity to repent. Because they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (TKGE) they transgressed or sinned. If they ate from the Tree of Life before they repented then they would live forever in sin and not be able to return to God’s presence.

    So my theory is that Richard has partaken of the Tree of Life and is immortal. He took Ben into the Temple which protects the two trees and had him partake of the fruits of one or both of these trees. That’s why he “lost his innocence” and “is will always be one of us.”

    Maybe the hostiles are really just a group of people that have partaken of the Tree of Life or the TKGE?

    Maybe the reason why Ben keeps getting beat up but not killed is because he has partaken of the Tree of Life and is immortal?

    I’m sure a lot of you remember the references to Adam and Eve in the episode where Jack and Kate (I think) find the fresh water inland and find the skeletons of two bodies.

    If this is the Garden of Eden then I can see why it needs to be protected.

    Also, in the Bible Adam and Eve are banished from the Garden for sin. Widmore broke the rules (sinned) and was also bannished.

    Like I said before I think the four-toed statue could be the cherubim and the smoke monster could be the flaming sword that were both placed in the garden by God to protect the tree of life and the Garden of Eden.

    Now Adam and Eve needed the help of Jesus Christ in order to repent. Jesus is sometimes referred to as the Good Shepherd. Maybe “Christian Shepherd” (or Jack) character is a motif for Jesus? These kinds of motifs are used frequently in movies.

    While neither Jack or Christian are perfect maybe the writers are using them in that way.[/quote]
    _____________________________________
    I’m liking this theory more and more.

  553. Rita says:

    [quote comment="329449"][quote comment="329416"][quote comment="329409"][quote comment="329404"][/quote]
    [/quote]
    So this is just a theory…

    Maybe the hostiles are really just a group of people that have partaken of the Tree of Life or the TKGE?
    [/quote]
    _____________________________________
    I’m liking this theory more and more.[/quote]
    ____________
    I think this would explain A LOT of what has been going on, though not just the Biblical version, but a sort of combining of several different religion’s stories with the Garden of Eden being the center peice.

  554. Lost Horizon says:

    [quote comment="329453"][quote comment="329449"][quote comment="329416"][quote comment="329409"][quote comment="329404"][/quote]
    [/quote]
    So this is just a theory…

    Maybe the hostiles are really just a group of people that have partaken of the Tree of Life or the TKGE?
    [/quote]
    _____________________________________
    I’m liking this theory more and more.[/quote]
    ____________
    I think this would explain A LOT of what has been going on, though not just the Biblical version, but a sort of combining of several different religion’s stories with the Garden of Eden being the center peice.[/quote]

    _____________________
    The part I can’t figure into this Garden of Eden theory is the time travel and the frozen donkey wheel.

    Maybe the donkey wheel is the steering wheel to Noah’s ark? lol

  555. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="328864"][quote comment="328849"]question:

    Why don’t you think Christian had contacted Jack at all? I know eventually they will meet up again, possible next season around the ending I am guessing. Perhaps makes a bigger story line? Thoughts anyone!???[/quote]

    Christian DID contact Jack. In the lobby of his office, he was there when Jack heard the beep of the smoke detector (which sounded like the warning beep of the computer in the Swan station). Though it SEEMS like a long time ago, it was in “Jack time” only a few months (or even weeks) before A316.

    If you mean, why hasn’t Christian contacted Jack ON the island, I suspect that won’t happen until season 6 when there can be a big happy family reunion between Clair and Jack and Christian. Just speculating…

    : ) P[/quote]
    *************
    When Jack was being held captive by the others in hopes that he would perform the surgery on Ben, His fathers voice can be heard over the intercom…he is somewhat talking to Jack…he tells him to “let it go” or something along those lines…i think this is actually a big part of who Jack is…he becomes obsessed about things and he needs answers and needs to feel he can fix the problem. We have seen how out of control his life has really been up until now…now he is just trying to let go and let things be…
    -Miss

  556. Miss lost says:

    I think Circus mom once said one of the reasons she enjoys Lost is because she loves all sorts of puzzles and this is just like that…one giant puzzle that we are slowly getting all of the pieces to and when we get another piece of the puzzle it either reaffirms what we thought the picture was or we see it in a different light. Anyway, I too love a good mystery or a good puzzle. I host a big murder mystery party every year and i also write the story and set up the clues all over town for the players of the game to find. When I am looking for interesting clues that are not to obvious but do help lead the players in the right direction it is amazing what research does for me…I think the same thing is true for the writers of this show. They know what the story is and how they want it to end…now they research all these different religions, myths, and historical events to find what they need to fit their story line. The great thing is that just like my mysteries, one guest will get a clue and think one way and another guest will think a completely different thing. So for example, the statue that has all of us mystified and debating who or what it is…this is exactly what they wanted. It could potentially be a specific god who really did exist and can be researched or it could be a combination of many different ideals that they needed to fit for their storyline…it could be RA or Juliette…it is a made up story and it will be whatever or whoever they need it to be to fit their storyline…regardless…it is a fun ride and has been wonderfully thought provoking and I love reading what many of you think and love trying to figure it out myself. I can’t believe how many nights i have had stupid dreams or have sat up running different theories through my head…even if some things seem farfetched, i still love LOST for its complexity and I can’t wait until we get that last puzzle piece and have that final aha moment ( i hope I have the aha moment). It will be sad when it is all over, but it has been a fun ride so far…
    -miss

  557. steve says:

    Thinking about DID, and pondered the flight manifest from 815. Hurley went through the manifest for the names of those that were in the group. They assumed that the taillies were dead, and so were any others that were on the manifest, but not present. In this way Hurley accounts for all but Ethan. What if some of the people on the manifest were not dead, but foomed to another time on the island, say way back in time. Not all passengers are actually accounted for. Just food for thought

  558. Flyboy says:

    [quote comment="328700"][quote comment="328655"]Lies, Lies, and more Lies. I stand by my comment 100 from before this episode how.

    * When Sun shows Ben the picture of ’77 Ben acts surprised that they were in Dharma back then. I call bigtime BS on this…….

    i pretty much agree w/ everything in your post except this part. I’m not sure on this. Someone else stated earlier that they felt that maybe this was the O6ers FIRST time in the 70’s. I don’t feel like we were ever given a hint that Ben had some recognition of them unless you take account the comment “you remind him of her” and you feel like this refers to Ben remembering Juliet as herself. I’m going to go back and watch the episode where Ben as Henry Gale, first “meets” Sayid before he tortures him. I recall Ben’s eyes getting big when he sees him, but was this recognition or fear?[/quote]

    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    You will see…… this is my ‘runway’ moment lol. Ben asked ‘who gave you this picture’? How did he know that someone gave them that pic? They never said anything about that before Ben asks the question. Believe me…. Ben knows… that explains alot about past experiences that we have already seen on the island. Remember…. Ben only sees pieces of the puzzle… NOT the whole puzzle.

  559. JZ says:

    [quote comment="329478"][quote comment="328700"][quote comment="328655"]Lies, Lies, and more Lies. I stand by my comment 100 from before this episode how.

    * When Sun shows Ben the picture of ’77 Ben acts surprised that they were in Dharma back then. I call bigtime BS on this…….

    i pretty much agree w/ everything in your post except this part. I’m not sure on this. Someone else stated earlier that they felt that maybe this was the O6ers FIRST time in the 70’s. I don’t feel like we were ever given a hint that Ben had some recognition of them unless you take account the comment “you remind him of her” and you feel like this refers to Ben remembering Juliet as herself. I’m going to go back and watch the episode where Ben as Henry Gale, first “meets” Sayid before he tortures him. I recall Ben’s eyes getting big when he sees him, but was this recognition or fear?[/quote]

    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    You will see…… this is my ‘runway’ moment lol. Ben asked ‘who gave you this picture’? How did he know that someone gave them that pic? They never said anything about that before Ben asks the question. Believe me…. Ben knows… that explains alot about past experiences that we have already seen on the island. Remember…. Ben only sees pieces of the puzzle… NOT the whole puzzle.[/quote]

    *************************

    I agree with this theory because Lost makes you think of the small details or subject areas that the writers don’t spend alot of time on…and then 3 episodes or even a whole season later, that little detail will come back to be something very significant.

  560. Rita says:

    [quote comment="329458"][quote comment="329453"][quote comment="329449"][quote comment="329416"][quote comment="329409"][quote comment="329404"][/quote]
    [/quote]
    So this is just a theory…

    Maybe the hostiles are really just a group of people that have partaken of the Tree of Life or the TKGE?
    [/quote]
    _____________________________________
    I’m liking this theory more and more.[/quote]
    ____________
    I think this would explain A LOT of what has been going on, though not just the Biblical version, but a sort of combining of several different religion’s stories with the Garden of Eden being the center peice.[/quote]

    _____________________
    The part I can’t figure into this Garden of Eden theory is the time travel and the frozen donkey wheel.

    Maybe the donkey wheel is the steering wheel to Noah’s ark? lol[/quote]
    ________________________________________
    Well, clearly they aren’t just sticking with the Biblical account of things! I like this theory because it doesn’t involve aliens among other things, but a science and history based accounting – the story of a VERY early/ancient people.

  561. Circus Mom says:

    [quote comment="329474"]I think Circus mom once said one of the reasons she enjoys Lost is because she loves all sorts of puzzles and this is just like that…one giant puzzle that we are slowly getting all of the pieces to and when we get another piece of the puzzle it either reaffirms what we thought the picture was or we see it in a different light. Anyway, I too love a good mystery or a good puzzle. I host a big murder mystery party every year and i also write the story and set up the clues all over town for the players of the game to find. When I am looking for interesting clues that are not to obvious but do help lead the players in the right direction it is amazing what research does for me…I think the same thing is true for the writers of this show. They know what the story is and how they want it to end…now they research all these different religions, myths, and historical events to find what they need to fit their story line. The great thing is that just like my mysteries, one guest will get a clue and think one way and another guest will think a completely different thing. So for example, the statue that has all of us mystified and debating who or what it is…this is exactly what they wanted. It could potentially be a specific god who really did exist and can be researched or it could be a combination of many different ideals that they needed to fit for their storyline…it could be RA or Juliette…it is a made up story and it will be whatever or whoever they need it to be to fit their storyline…regardless…it is a fun ride and has been wonderfully thought provoking and I love reading what many of you think and love trying to figure it out myself. I can’t believe how many nights i have had stupid dreams or have sat up running different theories through my head…even if some things seem farfetched, i still love LOST for its complexity and I can’t wait until we get that last puzzle piece and have that final aha moment ( i hope I have the aha moment). It will be sad when it is all over, but it has been a fun ride so far…
    -miss[/quote]
    Althouth I will be sad when Lost is over I think that further research into things connected with Lost and re-watching could keep me going for a couple more years. I have yet to read any of the books mentioned and am now ready to read a bunch of Norse and Egyptian history amoung other things. All relating to Lost.

  562. Flyboy says:

    [quote comment="328811"]
    ………..
    This might have been discussed in previous thread but when you get a minute, Wikipedia the word Samsara. While your there, type in Buddhism and look at the “Wheel of Life / Dharma”…look familiar??? Also, the The Four Noble Truths might also shed light to what some of these character are experiencing.

    The writes have always indicated the characters are not in purgatory, have they confirmed they aren’t in some state of Samsara???…….
    [/quote]

    ‘Locke is Jacob’….
    I think you are onto something with the above post. I did the Wikipedia searches and I still have more to read. I think it will take me some time to digest everything and start to make the connections. Thank you for the insight. I don’t think I would have seen that one coming.

    I agree 100% with ‘Miss lost’ comment 559 above. I truly believe that this show is based on many of the connections that we have made (physics, buddhism, bible connections, etc.). I also think that they looked for theses things to help explain their story. In conclusion, not one of our theories will be completely correct, in the end we will all have individually found pieces to build the puzzle. That is precisely why I love this blog. The insight is amazing. Many things I did not catch have been pointed out to me that help me hone my theory and sometimes even scrap parts of my theory.

  563. Duke says:

    [quote comment="328366"]This was by far the best episode of the season, and the best episode in a long time. Not only were questions answered, but they were done so with edge-of-your-seat anticipation. The scene at the harbor where Penny lives was just incredible. Every one of us had to be in fear that that was going to be the end for Penny, since right before that Ben told Sun (in present time) to tell Desmond that he’s sorry if she ever got back off the Island. I thought all my worst fears about Penny were going to come true, as I (and many of you) have been scared for Penny since the very first time we saw Ben bloodied at the harbor when he called Jack. Now that it appears Des and Penny ended up being OK, I wonder where that leaves him in the story. He doesn’t have to come back to the Island to try to avenge Penny’s death, so why would he come back? I don’t think it’s logical that he would try to hunt down Ben simply for TRYING to kill her…so we’ll just have to wait and see what his role on the show still is (I can’t imagine his role is finished).

    The scene with Ben and Smokey/Alex was unbelievable too. The tension at the moment where the smoke engulfs him was palpable. I really thought, at that moment, that it was possible that we could be seeing the end of Ben, because it certainly would have been a dramatic final moment. It’s also interesting how they have still made Ben’s purpose unclear for us. On the one hand, it seems that he knows Locke is now the one calling the shots, and Smokey/Alex have made that clear to him, but he STILL had ulterior motives in terms of wanting to kill Locke. I mean, will Ben REALLY be able to take a backseat to Locke?

    For me, Michael Emerson (Ben) and Terry O’Quinn (Locke) are the two best actors on the show, by far, and tonight’s episode was just exceptional. The way Locke now totally seems to know what the hell is going on with the Island could lend some credence to the theory that Locke is Jacob. Not saying that he is, but it’s possible. This was “Lost” again at its best–the actual drama was back.

    As for a couple of thoughts from some posts I’ve read…I don’t see how Widmore could’ve helped in building the Lamp Post. He’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, in his words, and if he built the Lamp Post then surely he would be able to find the Lamp Post and the Lamp Post tells you where the Island is, so…that theory is kaput. He obviously knows where Eloise Hawking is, since he sent Desmond there, but I think he must not know of the Lamp Post or that Hawking is connected to it. If he did, it would simply be illogical (he knows that Hawking is managing the Lamp Post but he can’t get back to the Island? No way!).

    About Comment 232, I think Ben is lying to Locke at the beginning of the episode when he tells Locke “I knew this would happen” and I think he’s teling the truth to Sun when he says “I had no idea it would happen.” At the beginning of the episode, he’s still under the impression he can run the show and says what he thinks will sound believable to Locke and what might be able to manipulate him further. To me he’s clearly surprised to see Locke alive by his initial reaction at the very moment he first sees Locke (and even Locke says this and recognizes this), and simply comes up with what he said in that conniving mind of his. But by the time he tells Sun “I had no idea…”, it’s been made clear to him by Locke’s actions that Locke is in control now, so he’s just telling Sun what he thinks. But yet, he still wants to kill Locke, according to Alex/Smokey.

    And nobody’s mentioned this…about the part where we see Widmore being exiled off the Island (about to be sent off on the sub). It’s mentioned that he had a daughter with “an outsider.” Presumably, Penny is that daughter. So, to me, that means Widmore and Penny’s mother conceived Penny off-Island, and we can put to rest the theory that Penny was born on the Island. Anybody think differently? Is the identity of Penny’s mother just an insignificant piece to the puzzle?

    Also, in the last episode we could infer that both Widmore and Ellie were on the Island at the time young Ben got shot by Sayid, in 1977. We know Widmore was there for at least a few years after that, up until he gets exiled, probably around 1984 or 1987 at the latest (I say that because if Widmore says he’s been trying to get back to the Island for 20 years, that means “20 years ago” is the mid-1980’s.) So, I think this means Widmore had nothing to do with orchestrating the Purge; he had already left. And we didn’t see Ellie at all in this episode during the flashback scenes with Widmore, so we still don’t know when she left, and what her exact relationship to Widmore is.

    Ok, that’s all I have for now. What a great episode this was, I’m really pumped![/quote]
    _______________________________
    Widmore was there for at least 38 years. 1954-1992 when the purge happened according to Horace telling Locke he has been dead for 12 years when Locke was looking for Jacob’s cabin. 38 years based on 1954 being the first year (which maybe he was there before then).

  564. Duke says:

    [quote comment="328390"]Another great episode that seemed to fly by! So this is what stuck out to me:

    1. Rousseau meets Ben around 1988 (that’s when she came to the island and Alex was born, right?) but doesn’t remember him when she caught him in the jungle in 2004 (just like not remember meeting Jin) – did her memory get wiped out?
    2. Ethan was with Ben in 1988 (purge happened in 1992?) – So Ethan was taken before the purge?
    3. The timeline seems off to me too – Widmore left when Alex was around 4-5 years old – she looked around that age? That would be around the year 1992/3 – time of the purge?
    4. The visions Ben had of Alex when he saw Smokey were kind of lame in my opinion
    5. I always said Ben is not evil and Widmore is – we shall see![/quote]
    _________________________________
    Number 1- She met Ben while he was stealing her daughter in the middle of the night. Not enough light to get a good look. IMO.

    Number 3- The purge had to have already happened if Richard, Ben and Alex were playing on the swing set and Ben was using the sub. Dharma was already wiped out when Widmore gets exiled.

    NUmber 5- Widmore may turn out to be evil but there is NO WAY anyone can catagorize Ben as good. Look at what he has done for crying out loud.

  565. Lost Horizon says:

    [quote comment="329481"][quote comment="329458"][quote comment="329453"][quote comment="329449"][quote comment="329416"][quote comment="329409"][quote comment="329404"][/quote]
    [/quote]
    So this is just a theory…

    Maybe the hostiles are really just a group of people that have partaken of the Tree of Life or the TKGE?
    [/quote]
    _____________________________________
    I’m liking this theory more and more.[/quote]
    ____________
    I think this would explain A LOT of what has been going on, though not just the Biblical version, but a sort of combining of several different religion’s stories with the Garden of Eden being the center peice.[/quote]

    _____________________
    The part I can’t figure into this Garden of Eden theory is the time travel and the frozen donkey wheel.

    Maybe the donkey wheel is the steering wheel to Noah’s ark? lol[/quote]
    ________________________________________
    Well, clearly they aren’t just sticking with the Biblical account of things! I like this theory because it doesn’t involve aliens among other things, but a science and history based accounting – the story of a VERY early/ancient people.[/quote]

    ______________________________________

    It will be interesting to see if it’s right.

  566. lola says:

    [quote comment="328977"]For those who think that the carvings on the temple wall were similar to LockeBoy’s drawing of Smokey, I disagree. I took a better look at both and the only real similarity is that a version of Smokey appears in both.

    Here is LockeBoy’s drawing:

    http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/d/d6/LockeDrawingSmokey.jpg

    And here is the temple wall:

    http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/4/4b/RaMonster.jpg

    FWIW, the symbol at the bottom between Anubis and Smokey is either “water” or the letter “n”. For the eye in the middle, I could not find a direct translation – but there is “the eye of horus” which represents fractions, but doesn’t really look like that eye. It could also be the symbol for “day or time” inside the symbol for mouth.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ——————————————-

    just a side note-interesting how the man in Lockeboy’s drawing is bald-no hair drawn on stick figure

  567. lola says:

    [quote comment="329117"][quote
    Remember Widmore said he had been having crazy dreams -lately- to Ben.

    __________________________________________
    refresh my memory, when did this conversation take place? when ben went to widmore’s home?

  568. lola says:

    [quote comment="328977"]For those who think that the carvings on the temple wall were similar to LockeBoy’s drawing of Smokey, I disagree. I took a better look at both and the only real similarity is that a version of Smokey appears in both.

    Here is LockeBoy’s drawing:

    http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/d/d6/LockeDrawingSmokey.jpg

    And here is the temple wall:

    http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/4/4b/RaMonster.jpg

    FWIW, the symbol at the bottom between Anubis and Smokey is either “water” or the letter “n”.
    : ) P[/quote]
    ——————————————

    looks like a snake to me

  569. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="329482"][quote comment="329474"]I think Circus mom once said one of the reasons she enjoys Lost is because she loves all sorts of puzzles and this is just like that…one giant puzzle that we are slowly getting all of the pieces to and when we get another piece of the puzzle it either reaffirms what we thought the picture was or we see it in a different light. Anyway, I too love a good mystery or a good puzzle. I host a big murder mystery party every year and i also write the story and set up the clues all over town for the players of the game to find. When I am looking for interesting clues that are not to obvious but do help lead the players in the right direction it is amazing what research does for me…I think the same thing is true for the writers of this show. They know what the story is and how they want it to end…now they research all these different religions, myths, and historical events to find what they need to fit their story line. The great thing is that just like my mysteries, one guest will get a clue and think one way and another guest will think a completely different thing. So for example, the statue that has all of us mystified and debating who or what it is…this is exactly what they wanted. It could potentially be a specific god who really did exist and can be researched or it could be a combination of many different ideals that they needed to fit for their storyline…it could be RA or Juliette…it is a made up story and it will be whatever or whoever they need it to be to fit their storyline…regardless…it is a fun ride and has been wonderfully thought provoking and I love reading what many of you think and love trying to figure it out myself. I can’t believe how many nights i have had stupid dreams or have sat up running different theories through my head…even if some things seem farfetched, i still love LOST for its complexity and I can’t wait until we get that last puzzle piece and have that final aha moment ( i hope I have the aha moment). It will be sad when it is all over, but it has been a fun ride so far…
    -miss[/quote]
    Althouth I will be sad when Lost is over I think that further research into things connected with Lost and re-watching could keep me going for a couple more years. I have yet to read any of the books mentioned and am now ready to read a bunch of Norse and Egyptian history amoung other things. All relating to Lost.[/quote]

    * * * * *

    Somehow, this is what TV ought to be: Entertaining, thought provoking, educational (ooh, nasty word). Instead we get sitcoms with laugh tracks so loud you can’t hear the dialog and The Donald. Sigh.

    8) Jim

  570. wingman says:

    I’ve read about 300 posts now and it seems as if a few people think Ben was telling Locke the truth when he first saw him, yet he was lying to Sun when he said “Dead is Dead”, and that John was scaring him to death by being alive…I took it the complete opposite, that he was lying to Locke to save face when he first saw him, and telling the absolute truth when talking later to Sun…I know Ben could talk a blindman into passing a DMV vision test, but if you’ve watched his character closely, while it’s not easy to see when he’s LYING, it’s much easier to see when he’s telling the truth…When Ben tells the truth (or some aspect of real truth) he comes off as award and boy like (Alla when Juliet confronted him in the kitchen about her sister, or when he was apologizing to Penny when he was about to kill her, or when he was talking to Sun this episode)…I felt like what he told to Sun was like the truest $hit he’d ever said on the show period…Don’t know if the temple “innocence” mind-raping erased him seeing his mom in the jungle that time, but if it did it even furthers my view that he really thinks Dead IS Dead! And when he’s really telling the truth he shows that boyish, almost immature side of his personality…

  571. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="329518"]I’ve read about 300 posts now and it seems as if a few people think Ben was telling Locke the truth when he first saw him, yet he was lying to Sun when he said “Dead is Dead”, and that John was scaring him to death by being alive…I took it the complete opposite, that he was lying to Locke to save face when he first saw him, and telling the absolute truth when talking later to Sun…I know Ben could talk a blindman into passing a DMV vision test, but if you’ve watched his character closely, while it’s not easy to see when he’s LYING, it’s much easier to see when he’s telling the truth…When Ben tells the truth (or some aspect of real truth) he comes off as award and boy like (Alla when Juliet confronted him in the kitchen about her sister, or when he was apologizing to Penny when he was about to kill her, or when he was talking to Sun this episode)…I felt like what he told to Sun was like the truest $hit he’d ever said on the show period…Don’t know if the temple “innocence” mind-raping erased him seeing his mom in the jungle that time, but if it did it even furthers my view that he really thinks Dead IS Dead! And when he’s really telling the truth he shows that boyish, almost immature side of his personality…[/quote]

    I see what you’re saying here and understand, but don’t agree. I think that Ben was at his “Henry Gale” best when he was talking to Caesar about how crazy Locke was. As far as I am concerned, Ben’s NEXT best Henry Gale impression was when he was talking to Sun about Locke.

    (When I say Henry Gale – I mean the way he was acting in the Swan hatch when Locke and Jack were talking to him while he was eating cereal.)

    : ) P

  572. Tarzan says:

    LOST for Dummies – by Tarzan

    All quiet Tarzan corner of jungle this week.

    Not see science peoples – not see native peoples.

    Tarzan do hear strange thing though.

    Sound like giant flushing noise below island.

    Later Tarzan hear strange voices with no faces talk quietly.

    Tarzan think they say thing about getting right man, right job… to reach into island toilet and undo clog.

    Tarzan not know what this mean… voices laughing when they say this.

    Tarzan do many busy work this week, after long year make much hard work.

    Do not understand science peoples rules on hard island work.

    Tarzan catch five fish every day, climb tree get three coconut every day, search jungle to find fresh mango every day.

    Science peoples make island rules they call tax.

    Tarzan must share fish, coconut and mango, that Tarzan himself find, with island science peoples, even though science peoples not get off backside and go find fish, coconut and mango themself.

    Tarzan catch five fish, must give two fish. Tarzan catch six fish, must give three fish. Tarzan do all work for extra fish… that Tarzan never taste.

    Not get Tarzan wrong. Tarzan gladly share fish with hungry friends that try find fish and not have luck. Tarzan just not want share fish with lazy science peoples that sit island teepee all day, smoke island herbs, then live jungle just hug jungle trees.

    This week make Tarzan most mad. After share fish, coconut and mango all year, science peoples say Tarzan not share enough. Now Tarzan must give all that Tarzan find this week, or Tarzan go to science prison.

    Tarzan think he side with Native Chief Richard Alpert next time Island God leave island leadership open for taking. Not care which side make best issue on “island warming” – Tarzan cold now – just loin cloth. Not want cold island where White Ice Bear want make meal Tarzan.

  573. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="329493"][quote comment="328977"]For those who think that the carvings on the temple wall were similar to LockeBoy’s drawing of Smokey, I disagree. I took a better look at both and the only real similarity is that a version of Smokey appears in both.

    Here is LockeBoy’s drawing:

    http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/d/d6/LockeDrawingSmokey.jpg

    And here is the temple wall:

    http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/4/4b/RaMonster.jpg

    FWIW, the symbol at the bottom between Anubis and Smokey is either “water” or the letter “n”.
    : ) P[/quote]
    ——————————————

    looks like a snake to me[/quote]

    * * * * *

    I think it’s intended to look like the Monster. You could argue that it looks like a Slinky. I think we have to remember the the Lockeboy product was drawn by…a boy.

    8) Jim

  574. Duke says:

    [quote comment="328536"]why is ben so shocked to see locke alive he says the island has never done this before .. does he not know about christain shepard ?[/quote]
    _____________________________
    Only certain people are shown Christian. Locke is seen by everyone. I believe there are two different entities. Christian actually being dead and carrying out Jacob’s work and Locke actually being alive again to complete his mission. Whether that is to be the actual leader or not is yet to be determined.

  575. Hammer says:

    LOL Tarzan…don’t fret. The island stimulus package should take effect in about 15 yrs (assuming nobody turns the FDW) and once the volcano blows, the cfc’s will ‘heat’ up the area. ;)

  576. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="329530"]Only certain people are shown Christian. Locke is seen by everyone. I believe there are two different entities. Christian actually being dead and carrying out Jacob’s work and Locke actually being alive again to complete his mission. Whether that is to be the actual leader or not is yet to be determined.[/quote]

    I think only certain people have SEEN Christian, but I don’t think that means that no one else can see him. I think it means he hasn’t chosen to show himself to any others.

    : ) P

  577. Gen 24:6 says:

    Re: wheel and old testament
    Ezekiel 1:15; this is old testament prophecy so there is a lot of stuff

    Also don’t forget the snake in the garden of eden story, lots of snakes on smokeys walls.

    And Adam and Eves children Cain and Able – God favored Able, Cain became jealous and killed able, Cain was forced to wander the earth
    Widmore is Cain?? he killed someone (Able – Jacob???) so he is forced to “wander the earth”

  578. Jim in Georgia says:

    [quote comment="329490"][quote comment="329117"][quote
    Remember Widmore said he had been having crazy dreams -lately- to Ben.

    __________________________________________
    refresh my memory, when did this conversation take place? when ben went to widmore’s home?[/quote]

    * * * * *

    Ben went to London and lied his way past the doorman at Widmore’s condominium. When he got into Widmore’s bedroom, Widmore said he had started keeping a bottle of scotch by the bed when the nightmares started.

    8) Jim

  579. Tasha says:

    So I watched the episode again and talked it out with people I know and we noticed some things. Ok. I DO read the comments on this blog but some convrsations get foggy so please don’t hold that against me if I am repeating something.

    When Ben said he would be outside after summoning Smokey, did anyone think it was odd that Locke was gone and came back after a bit, KNOWING exactly where to go? ( I know that has been discussed.) Adding to that though, he also made a comment about how he didn’t want to miss it. (Ben getting judged.) So did he miss it? Funny how he disappears right after Ben falls in the room, then reappears right after it’s all over. I just WONDER if Locke IS Smokey. I wonder if he “missed” it or if he was there and got to see it.

    Also, I am wondering if maybe, just MAYBE that the speculations on Richard being Jacob could be true. Sometimes in history, leaders have been known to pose as the second hand man. Richard has always looked to be the next in line. Could it be that these so called “leaders”…Charles, Locke, Ben….only think they are the leader? So if anything were to happen, RA will always be there. The leaders will come and go but in reality RA IS the leader and never has to do anything. That is why he needs people to speak on his behalf. Nobody is really allowed to know who he really is. When he tells Charles, Jacob wanted him to save Ben, WHEN was that? Was Jacob whispering in his ear “save him,” and we just didn’t hear it? Ben plays stupid alot, so maybe the ones that believe he lied in this whole episode will see my view for a sec. Just because Richard acts dumb about time traveling in 1954 and seems to not know who Sawyer is in 1974 doesn’t necessary mean he isn’t just playing the part. When Locke says “Jacob” sent me, it could have caught him off guard because he IS Jacob.

    I know I am just rambling and alot of this has already been said, but it was just on my mind and wanted to put it in my words. I now will sit here and ponder some more about why in the world Sun is there and where in the world CS/RA went:)

    A little late on here but hope everyone had a nice Easter!!

  580. Jayne says:

    Jayne still think Tarzan funny man.

    Jayne told by Hostile family member that Jayne stupid, in so many words.

    Hostile family member ask Jayne to leave Island.

    Jayne not interested in war with “Hostiles”, so Jayne turn FDW and leave.

    Jayne go to Other Island.

    Jayne meet “Other Other’s.”

    “Other Other’s” really nice to Jayne. Offer Jungle Punch and papaya salad, and not care Jayne spell name with “y.”

    Jayne really like Jungle Punch and papaya salad.

    Jungle Punch make Jayne silly, and try to open secret hatch with wrong numbers on Sholazar Basin.

    Jayne just broke epic axe, instead.

    Jayne copy and paste Tarzan Clever Wit to “Other Other’s” Island.

    Jayne promises she give Tarzan credit for Clever Wit.

    “Other Other’s” hail Jayne for sharing Tarzan Clever Wit.

    “Other Other’s” build statue in Jayne’s honor and now call Island, Jaynestown.

    Jayne have FIVE toes!

    “Other Other’s” think Jayne statue is better than “Hostile’s” statue because “Other Other’s” statue have 5 toes.

    Jayne never thought Big Toe was all that important.

    Jayne knows better now.

    “Other Other’s” ask Jayne to kidnap Tarzan from Little and Big Island and bring to Jaynestown.

    Jayne laugh at “Other Other’s.”

    “Other Other’s” offer to help Jayne snatch Tarzan and use big metal fish to get away.

    “Other Other’s” promise Jayne get to drive big metal fish.

    Jayne had to think about it.

    Jayne think stealing is bad.

    Jayne try to explain to “Other Other’s” that Tarzan swing on 2 vines at once, while eying “yellow-haired goddess, Juliet.”

    Jayne think Tarzan busy man.

    “Other Other’s “ don’t care.

    Jayne just stop by to say “goodbye” and promise not to take Tarzan.

    Jayne still luv Tarzan.

    Jayne thank everyone for fun time!

    Jayne thank Tarzan for Jungle Juice and mangoes, and not sacrifice Jayne to big, black cannabis cloud.

  581. neofunk says:

    The next episode is some like it Hoth.So maybe smokie is the egyptian moon God Thoth whom RA
    appointed when he retired from the earth to rule , ordering him to keep a register of those who were there, and to mete out just punishments to them. Thoth became the representation of Ra in the afterlife, seen at the judgement of the dead in the ‘Halls of the Double Ma’at’.Believed to be the author of the spells in the Book of the Dead, he was a helper (and punisher) of the deceased as they try to enter the underworld. As voice of the sun-god Ra, he carried the utchat, or Eye of Ra, the symbol of Ra’s ubiquitous power.Remember Locke saying he looked into the eye of the Island when he saw smokie or that smokie was the eye.Just throwing it out there.

  582. wingman says:

    [quote comment="329521"][quote comment="329518"]I’ve read about 300 posts now and it seems as if a few people think Ben was telling Locke the truth when he first saw him, yet he was lying to Sun when he said “Dead is Dead”, and that John was scaring him to death by being alive…I took it the complete opposite, that he was lying to Locke to save face when he first saw him, and telling the absolute truth when talking later to Sun…I know Ben could talk a blindman into passing a DMV vision test, but if you’ve watched his character closely, while it’s not easy to see when he’s LYING, it’s much easier to see when he’s telling the truth…When Ben tells the truth (or some aspect of real truth) he comes off as award and boy like (Alla when Juliet confronted him in the kitchen about her sister, or when he was apologizing to Penny when he was about to kill her, or when he was talking to Sun this episode)…I felt like what he told to Sun was like the truest $hit he’d ever said on the show period…Don’t know if the temple “innocence” mind-raping erased him seeing his mom in the jungle that time, but if it did it even furthers my view that he really thinks Dead IS Dead! And when he’s really telling the truth he shows that boyish, almost immature side of his personality…[/quote]

    I see what you’re saying here and understand, but don’t agree. I think that Ben was at his “Henry Gale” best when he was talking to Caesar about how crazy Locke was. As far as I am concerned, Ben’s NEXT best Henry Gale impression was when he was talking to Sun about Locke.

    (When I say Henry Gale – I mean the way he was acting in the Swan hatch when Locke and Jack were talking to him while he was eating cereal.)

    : ) P[/quote]
    —————————

    Hmmm, we’ll see, however I don’t agree that what I’m talking about is close to his Henry Gale-ism…I don’t wanna come off as smug or anything (God knows we have enuff of that here^^), but I just gotta rely on my own perspective here…I watched and re-watched so many Ben scenes (as his scenes are usually the cream of the crop) and I think I’ve pin-pointed how he acts when he’s telling the truth…He’s extremely awkward, boyish, and defensive when he’s telling the truth IMO…

    When he’s calculating he can be brash, timid, overwrought, etc.,…The way he manipulated Ceaser isn’t what I mean, that’s classic manipulative Ben…Or when he’s smiling at Ilana while taking a sip outta his bottle, that’s classic manipulation Ben…Pushing Widmore into killing the baby, that’s the origin of classic manipulative Ben…The weird looks, the crazy upping of the ante, all classic manipulative Ben, but as I’ve watched him over the years, when he’s telling the truth, his natural, awkward personality takes over…I felt like that was indeed the case when talking to Sun, he was really damn scared…The way he acted toward Juliet when he cooked dinner for her, and when she badgered him about her sister,..The way he talked to Penny Geekishly: “Hi I’m Benjamin Linus…”

    When he thought he really saw Alex, he breaks out of that hardcore super manipulative mode and his real personality peeks thru…When he awoke to see Locke that was classic “Man from Tallahassee” Ben right there IMO, but his more awkward and defensive personality is his real one; his Henry Gale is far more measured to me…I just think whenever he’s telling the truth (or some real form of it)his inner geek-kid spills out, and I think I’m at a point where i clearly see it now…That’s not to say his other manipulative sides don’t fool me alot still, but I’m wondering if anyone else has picked up on this…

  583. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="329565"]I felt like that was indeed the case when talking to Sun, he was really damn scared…The way he acted toward Juliet when he cooked dinner for her, and when she badgered him about her sister,..The way he talked to Penny Geekishly: “Hi I’m Benjamin Linus…”
    [/quote]

    Clearly, you’ve done your homework here. And it goes without saying, (but I must say it again anyway) Michael Emerson is one amazingly talented actor.

    However, I am not sure all the studying in the WORLD is going to help us figure out when Ben is lying versus when he isn’t, based just on the way ME delivers the lines. You know why? I am pretty sure even Michael Emerson doesn’t know when Ben is lying. I am not sure even the DIRECTOR knows when Ben is lying. So it isn’t as if one or both of them can think, “Okay, Ben is sort of telling the truth here, so deliver the line like this.”

    JMO.

    : ) P

  584. neofunk says:

    Totally agree with you wingman when he said i will miss you John he ment it he did not expect to see him again.And I get what you are saying bout that almost innocent look when he is teling the truth or near enough the truth anyway.I don’t think he was going to be judged till john called his bluff though he was hoping smokie whom maybe the god Thoth was going to kill John.He is just trying to wing it now

  585. JasonS says:

    [quote comment="329564"]The next episode is some like it Hoth.So maybe smokie is the egyptian moon God Thoth whom RA
    appointed when he retired from the earth to rule , ordering him to keep a register of those who were there, and to mete out just punishments to them. Thoth became the representation of Ra in the afterlife, seen at the judgement of the dead in the ‘Halls of the Double Ma’at’.Believed to be the author of the spells in the Book of the Dead, he was a helper (and punisher) of the deceased as they try to enter the underworld. As voice of the sun-god Ra, he carried the utchat, or Eye of Ra, the symbol of Ra’s ubiquitous power.Remember Locke saying he looked into the eye of the Island when he saw smokie or that smokie was the eye.Just throwing it out there.[/quote]

    —–

    Excellent theory…

  586. Jayne says:

    Island tax make Jayne angry too.

    Jayne also angry at Main Land Leader for wasting main land funds on pirates.

    Jayne want to send evil, bug-eyed man in to kill pirates.

    Jayne should recruit Rambino because pirates may have mini-pirates and bug-eyed man not evil enough to do job.

    Wait…Jayne on wrong Island!

    Jayne go back to Jungle Punch and Papaya Salad.

  587. Jayne says:

    Jayne slow tonight.

    Jayne go back to Jaynestown and realize what Tarzan say.

    Jayne hope Tarzan not go to science people prison.

    Jayne hug Tarzan and say, “Sorry.”

    Jayne spend too much time with evil, bug-eyed man.

    So, Jayne lie when she say she leave!

    Jayne just worry about Tarzan.

    Jayne hide in secret tree to not start war with “Hostiles” and until sure Tarzan OK.

  588. Hoof_Hearted says:

    Did anyone else notice the chest that Llana and Co were carrying had some of the ‘numbers’ on it? AA823

  589. Rumblestilskin says:

    Neofunk wrote:

    “The next episode is some like it Hoth.So maybe smokie is the egyptian moon God Thoth whom RA
    appointed when he retired from the earth to rule , ordering him to keep a register of those who were there, and to mete out just punishments to them.”
    ———————————-

    I think that the next episode will take place on the snow planet “Hoth” from The Empire Strikes Back.

    -Or at least, if it has to do with being cold, I will concider myself to have called it : )

  590. JZ says:

    [quote comment="329650"]Neofunk wrote:

    “The next episode is some like it Hoth.So maybe smokie is the egyptian moon God Thoth whom RA
    appointed when he retired from the earth to rule , ordering him to keep a register of those who were there, and to mete out just punishments to them.”
    ———————————-

    I think that the next episode will take place on the snow planet “Hoth” from The Empire Strikes Back.

    -Or at least, if it has to do with being cold, I will concider myself to have called it : )[/quote]

    _____________________________

    maybe we will find out why the polar bears are there?!?!

  591. neofunk says:

    Well I wont know till this Sunday being from Ireland which is infuriating having to stay away from the blog till then Rumplestilskin but maybe your right and that the force is strong in this episode lol

  592. Formulost says:

    Now that we kinda are getting to know what the smoke moster is, what is the one mystery you need solved before the end of season five? Vote on it with your fellow Losties at Hollywood.com!

  593. Formulost says:

    Now that we kinda are getting to know what the smoke moster is, what is the one mystery you need solved before the end of season five? Vote on it with your fellow Losties at Hollywood.com!

  594. wingman says:

    @PJSander[quote comment="329566"][quote comment="329565"]I felt like that was indeed the case when talking to Sun, he was really damn scared…The way he acted toward Juliet when he cooked dinner for her, and when she badgered him about her sister,..The way he talked to Penny Geekishly: “Hi I’m Benjamin Linus…”
    [/quote]

    Clearly, you’ve done your homework here. And it goes without saying, (but I must say it again anyway) Michael Emerson is one amazingly talented actor.

    However, I am not sure all the studying in the WORLD is going to help us figure out when Ben is lying versus when he isn’t, based just on the way ME delivers the lines. You know why? I am pretty sure even Michael Emerson doesn’t know when Ben is lying. I am not sure even the DIRECTOR knows when Ben is lying. So it isn’t as if one or both of them can think, “Okay, Ben is sort of telling the truth here, so deliver the line like this.”

    JMO.

    : ) P[/quote]

    ————————————–

    I think it’s deeper than that…Obviously Emerson is a great actor (WTH else is he in? I need to watch it), but it seems to me those moments I am describing are pretty poignant. ..As in they exist on their own tangent…I think it’s fair to think that the directors, along with Emerson, collaborate on certain moods and atmosphere on delivering certain lines (Even if the actor may not know where it’s ULTIMATLEY going)…As Emerson has crafted this character over the years I’ve seen TOO MUCH of his default personality that’s so different from his measured and tactical manipulative personality…I think a clear distinction exists…Not to say I’m more right than the next guy, but the stark contrast between his manipulation side and true personality is really evident if you watch closely (Because it’s the only time when he doesn’t have his “$hit together” so to speak)…Ben is super prepared for almost any and every situation, but when he’s not that when that awkward boy-like personality comes into play (Like when he brought Juliet to see Goodwin and told her she was his, when she confronts him in the kitchen about her sister, his initial reaction when Locke tells everyone he and Ben are going to see Jacob, when Widmore chides him about gloating this episode, etc.) The common thread I’ve found is that when he’s not ON (which means his super manipulation mode) his default persona is almost shy, coy, awkward, aloof, fearful…In these moments I feel like that’s when he’s telling the truth or being truthful in-terms of his expression….I really think he was more scared of John than of the smoke monster as evidenced by his comments to Sun…

  595. Mateo says:

    Enough talk about Charlie, he is dead, the writers confirmed it. Lets move on to much more relevant stuff…

  596. neofunk says:

    wingman Micheal Emerson was also very good in the first Saw movie can’t believe he ain’t in more movies

  597. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="329661"]Enough talk about Charlie, he is dead, the writers confirmed it. Lets move on to much more relevant stuff…[/quote]

    Great idea, Mateo. What is your suggestion?

    : ) P

  598. wingman says:

    [quote comment="329667"]wingman Micheal Emerson was also very good in the first Saw movie can’t believe he ain’t in more movies[/quote]
    Micheal Emerson is jigsaw? Never saw SAW movies^^….He’s gotta be in other stuff though…He needs his own HBO psycho show…

  599. Lost Horizon says:

    [quote comment="329548"]Re: wheel and old testament
    Ezekiel 1:15; this is old testament prophecy so there is a lot of stuff

    Also don’t forget the snake in the garden of eden story, lots of snakes on smokeys walls.

    And Adam and Eves children Cain and Able – God favored Able, Cain became jealous and killed able, Cain was forced to wander the earth
    Widmore is Cain?? he killed someone (Able – Jacob???) so he is forced to “wander the earth”[/quote]
    __—

    I was thinking the same thing.

  600. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="329659"]

    I think it’s deeper than that…Obviously Emerson is a great actor (WTH else is he in? I need to watch it)…[/quote]

    He was the bad guy in the first Robicop:-) Just watched it on late, late night TV…

  601. Miraks says:

    Question- when did Widmore ever say that he was the leader for thirty years?
    Here is the conversation:

    WIDMORE: … I was afraid Benjamin might fool you into leaving the Island, as he did with me. I was their leader.

    LOCKE: The Others?

    WIDMORE: They’re not the “Others” to me. They’re my people. We protected the Island peacefully for more than three decades. But then I was exiled… by him… just as you were.

    To me this just means that at some point he was the leader, not necessarily for the whole thirty years. He was already protecting the island when he was 17 and first met Locke, but he was clearly not the leader at that time. IMO we do NOT know how long he was the leade- maybe just a year or so…

  602. wingman says:

    [quote comment="329673"][quote comment="329659"]

    I think it’s deeper than that…Obviously Emerson is a great actor (WTH else is he in? I need to watch it)…[/quote]

    He was the bad guy in the first Robicop:-) Just watched it on late, late night TV…[/quote]

    LMAO, don’t BS a BSer…The badguy from Robocop 1 is the dad from That 70’s show…

  603. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="329661"]Enough talk about Charlie, he is dead, the writers confirmed it.[/quote]

    I don’t remember that “the writers confirmed” Charlie’s death, but it might also be that I didn’t WANT to hear the confirmation.

    If they DID confirm Charlie’s death, I will point out that they also confirmed that the show was not about time travel, so I have learned to take what they say with a grain of salt.

    I am more that willing to “move on” with more relevant stuff, but I am still waiting for a suggestion! LOL

    : ) P

  604. PJSander says:

    Michael Emerson’s CV:
    (Courtesy of IMDB)

    LOST (60 episodes, 2006 – 2009)
    The Legend of Zorro (2005) …. Harrigan
    “The Inside” …. Marty Manning (1 episode, 2005)
    29th and Gay (2005) …. Gorilla
    Straight-Jacket (2004) …. Victor
    “Law & Order: Special Victims Unit” …. Allan Shaye (1 episode, 2004)
    Saw (2004) …. Zep Hindle
    “Whoopi” …. F. Thomas Erickson (1 episode, 2003)
    “Skin” …. Scarpelli (1 episode, 2003)
    “Without a Trace” …. Stuart Wesmar (1 episode, 2003)
    “The X Files” …. Oliver Martin (1 episode, 2002)
    Unfaithful (2002) …. Josh
    “Law & Order: Criminal Intent” …. Gerry Rankin (1 episode, 2002)
    The Laramie Project (2002) …. Reverend
    Sounds from a Town I Love (2001) (TV)
    “The Education of Max Bickford” (1 episode, 2001)
    “The Practice” …. William Hinks (6 episodes, 2000-2001)
    “The District” (1 episode, 2000)
    For Love of the Game (1999) …. Gallery Doorman
    Playing by Heart (1998) …. Bosco
    Grace & Glorie (1998) (TV) …. Arnold Dudley
    The Impostors (1998) …. Burtom’s Assistant
    The Journey (1997) …. Michael
    Orpheus Descending (1990) (TV) …. Clown

    : ) P

  605. neofunk says:

    Miraks, Michael Emerson was not in Robocop the main bad guy in that was the father in the 70’s show

  606. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="329563"]Jayne still think Tarzan funny man.

    Jungle Punch make Jayne silly, and try to open secret hatch with wrong numbers on Sholazar Basin.

    quote]

    ____________________________

    Seems like you and I may have some things in common besides LOST. LOL

  607. Fast Eddie S says:

    [quote comment="329564"]The next episode is some like it Hoth.So maybe smokie is the egyptian moon God Thoth whom RA
    appointed when he retired from the earth to rule , ordering him to keep a register of those who were there, and to mete out just punishments to them. Thoth became the representation of Ra in the afterlife, seen at the judgement of the dead in the ‘Halls of the Double Ma’at’.Believed to be the author of the spells in the Book of the Dead, he was a helper (and punisher) of the deceased as they try to enter the underworld. As voice of the sun-god Ra, he carried the utchat, or Eye of Ra, the symbol of Ra’s ubiquitous power.Remember Locke saying he looked into the eye of the Island when he saw smokie or that smokie was the eye.Just throwing it out there.[/quote]
    ***
    Interesting. I don’t recall ever seeing the moon over the island.

  608. Jayne says:

    [quote comment="329681"][quote comment="329563"]Jayne still think Tarzan funny man.

    Jungle Punch make Jayne silly, and try to open secret hatch with wrong numbers on Sholazar Basin.

    quote]

    ____________________________

    Seems like you and I may have some things in common besides LOST. LOL[/quote]

    ,,,
    Jayne find video to share: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP34H5u6L7w

    Jayne have to kill “hydras” all around hatch Island! =D

  609. Hammer says:

    [quote comment=”329684
    Jayne have to kill “hydras” all around hatch Island! =D[/quote]
    Hmmmmm….watching over my cyber shoulder.

  610. Duke says:

    [quote comment="329543"][quote comment="329530"]Only certain people are shown Christian. Locke is seen by everyone. I believe there are two different entities. Christian actually being dead and carrying out Jacob’s work and Locke actually being alive again to complete his mission. Whether that is to be the actual leader or not is yet to be determined.[/quote]

    I think only certain people have SEEN Christian, but I don’t think that means that no one else can see him. I think it means he hasn’t chosen to show himself to any others.

    : ) P[/quote]
    __________________________
    Agreed. My point being that Locke is seen by everyone whereas Christian is not at least not at this point.

  611. Duke says:

    [quote comment="328963"][quote comment="328852"][quote comment="328263"][quote comment="328246"][quote comment="328232"] He COULD have killed Penny and didnt, he the lowered the gun because they had a baby[/quote]
    Not killing Penny wasn’t really by choice although he did lower the gun. Who knows had Des not intervened if he still would have done it.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    It was the same scene as when he was supposed to kill Danielle.

    Looks like Ben just might be a ‘good’ guy after all, just willing to do ALMOST anything for the island.[/quote]
    ___________________________________________
    Just because he is doing what he does for the island doesn’t make him good. Hitler also thought what he was doing was for the greater good. I do not think anyone would consider him to be good.

    Killing Penny wasn’t FOR the island. IT was for revenge. Not really understanding your coments this week Hammer something wrong. You sick or something? Not really on top of your game.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++=
    Hitler would have killed whether there was a child or not, Ben backed down both times…he didn’t kill Penny…just wanted to, realized he shouldn’t and got a butt whoopin.[/quote]
    _______________________________
    Ok, Hammer, I give up. Hitler was worse than Ben. Ben should knighted, sainted and made a sir for al the wonderful things he has done for humanity. So just because he didn’t follow thru and kill the children makes him good? Your argument doesn’t hold up. Not going thru with killing because of the kids doesn’t make up for all the other horrible things he’s done. I am sure that in Ben’s mind everything he is doing or has done is justified for whatever reason but that doesn’t change the fact that he does some horible things. The end (whatever that may be) doesn’t justify the means. IMO.

  612. LINS says:

    [quote comment="329679"]Michael Emerson’s CV:
    (Courtesy of IMDB)

    “The Practice” …. William Hinks (6 episodes, 2000-2001)

    : ) P[/quote]

    That one totally creeped me out, I had nightmares for weeks after that!

  613. Shadow says:

    Can’t wait for tomorrow. From the previews, it looks like it could be a really awesome episode…love Miles. And wouldn’t it be nice to get some major questions answered? I guess we’ll see.

  614. hank vega says:

    I made it to comment 443. I would have to quit my life to read all of them. Anyway, I just want to say that the four toes statue match the feet Faraday is missing in the season five poster. Coincidence? I don’t think so.

  615. steve says:

    [quote comment="329694"][quote comment="328963"][quote comment="328852"][quote comment="328263"][quote comment="328246"][quote comment="328232"] He COULD have killed Penny and didnt, he the lowered the gun because they had a baby[/quote]
    Not killing Penny wasn’t really by choice although he did lower the gun. Who knows had Des not intervened if he still would have done it.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    It was the same scene as when he was supposed to kill Danielle.

    Looks like Ben just might be a ‘good’ guy after all, just willing to do ALMOST anything for the island.[/quote]
    ___________________________________________
    Just because he is doing what he does for the island doesn’t make him good. Hitler also thought what he was doing was for the greater good. I do not think anyone would consider him to be good.

    Killing Penny wasn’t FOR the island. IT was for revenge. Not really understanding your coments this week Hammer something wrong. You sick or something? Not really on top of your game.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++=
    Hitler would have killed whether there was a child or not, Ben backed down both times…he didn’t kill Penny…just wanted to, realized he shouldn’t and got a butt whoopin.[/quote]
    _______________________________
    Ok, Hammer, I give up. Hitler was worse than Ben. Ben should knighted, sainted and made a sir for al the wonderful things he has done for humanity. So just because he didn’t follow thru and kill the children makes him good? Your argument doesn’t hold up. Not going thru with killing because of the kids doesn’t make up for all the other horrible things he’s done. I am sure that in Ben’s mind everything he is doing or has done is justified for whatever reason but that doesn’t change the fact that he does some horible things. The end (whatever that may be) doesn’t justify the means. IMO.[/quote]

    I see your point, but there could be another way of looking at Ben’s actions to date. What if the end Ben is working for is the salvation of the planet? Ben could have been doing “Horrible things” to truly Horrible people that were bringing about the end of the world. I will have to reserve judgment on Ben, because sometimes the ends do justify the means. Remember in life there is always collateral damage, the real obligation of heroes is to minimize that damage and achieve the goal.

    On Another topic, does anyone find it hard to buy Locke as a leader of men. This guy, may be a “Man of faith”, but he sure whines a lot about what to do.

  616. Circus Mom says:

    Food for thought.

    Anagram

    Lie Smoke I Thoth
    Lei Smoke I Thoth

  617. LINS says:

    I agree that we shoudl reserve judgement on Ben…I think his character is much like Snape from Harry Potter, and we won’t know until the end whether or not he is really good or evil. I think the fact that we come here to discuss that very question (pretty much every week) is a credit to the writers and producers of this show, who are obviously very talented and for now, I am just enjoying seeing what Ben is going to do each week and trying to figure out what his true intentions are…my vote is that he is good…but he certainly has done some bad things…but like I said, I think we’ll just have to wait and see :)

  618. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="329741"][quote comment="329694"][quote comment="328963"][quote comment="328852"][quote comment="328263"][quote comment="328246"][quote comment="328232"] He COULD have killed Penny and didnt, he the lowered the gun because they had a baby[/quote]
    Not killing Penny wasn’t really by choice although he did lower the gun. Who knows had Des not intervened if he still would have done it.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    It was the same scene as when he was supposed to kill Danielle.

    Looks like Ben just might be a ‘good’ guy after all, just willing to do ALMOST anything for the island.[/quote]
    ___________________________________________
    Just because he is doing what he does for the island doesn’t make him good. Hitler also thought what he was doing was for the greater good. I do not think anyone would consider him to be good.

    Killing Penny wasn’t FOR the island. IT was for revenge. Not really understanding your coments this week Hammer something wrong. You sick or something? Not really on top of your game.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++=
    Hitler would have killed whether there was a child or not, Ben backed down both times…he didn’t kill Penny…just wanted to, realized he shouldn’t and got a butt whoopin.[/quote]
    _______________________________
    Ok, Hammer, I give up. Hitler was worse than Ben. Ben should knighted, sainted and made a sir for al the wonderful things he has done for humanity. So just because he didn’t follow thru and kill the children makes him good? Your argument doesn’t hold up. Not going thru with killing because of the kids doesn’t make up for all the other horrible things he’s done. I am sure that in Ben’s mind everything he is doing or has done is justified for whatever reason but that doesn’t change the fact that he does some horible things. The end (whatever that may be) doesn’t justify the means. IMO.[/quote]

    I see your point, but there could be another way of looking at Ben’s actions to date. What if the end Ben is working for is the salvation of the planet? Ben could have been doing “Horrible things” to truly Horrible people that were bringing about the end of the world. I will have to reserve judgment on Ben, because sometimes the ends do justify the means. Remember in life there is always collateral damage, the real obligation of heroes is to minimize that damage and achieve the goal.

    quote]
    ________________
    I believe that Ben only kills for the greater good as well. He is trying to prtoect the island but one mystery to me is WHY the island needs protecting. I know he says Charles wants to exploit it, but even so. This island is pretty important in my eyes and I really need that answered LOL. Hopefully tonight!!!

  619. Tasha says:

    Sorry, I mispelled Protect.

    Steve, I meant to say something about Locke. I don’t find it hard to believe only because I suspected something like this since season 1. All leaders I think question themselves at times and I think this mysterious leader role snuck up on Locke. He has always wanted to find his purpose and like we have seen with ben, there is alot more to being leader on this island than meets the eye. Very mythical things going on here. Locke is one of my fav characters because I am definatley a woman of faith. I am happy for him right now. He had some pretty horrible things happen to him. I have always been a firm believer that when bad things happen to someone, it is a test. Our lives are full of tests, some harder than others, but always preparing us for something more. He had to go thru all that bad, become a stronger person, and figure out who he really was, which in my eyes, he was lost. Live with no regrets and never change anything because all those obstacles and mistakes made you who you are today.

    WHOA I need to shut up. I am rambling and going off topic. I am just really stoked about tonight!

  620. PJSander says:

    Something both LINS and Tasha said reminded me of a point I think is pertinent.

    There are, in my mind, four kinds of people:

    Those who TRY to do well and do so.

    Those who TRY to do well and do harm.

    Those who TRY to do harm and do so.

    Those who TRY to do harm and fail.

    I think most people fall into one of the first two categories. I believe there are many people in history who truly felt they were doing the RIGHT thing when they committed heinous acts. Any act of violence done in the name of a god, for instance.

    I think those that fall into the latter two categories are usually somewhat unhinged (Charles Manson).

    It remains to be seen in which category our main characters belong.

    : ) P

  621. steve says:

    [quote comment="329742"]Food for thought.

    Anagram

    Lie Smoke I Thoth
    Lei Smoke I Thoth[/quote]

    ********************
    Other Anagrams

    Mikes hot hot lie
    L is the Time Hook
    The Elitism Hook
    The smokie thoil

  622. Flyboy says:

    Speaking of ‘Creepy’ and ‘Charlie Manson’ did anyone catch Faraday playing Manson? Whoa! That was creepy! I think he played Manson better than Manson himself could have done.

  623. JZ says:

    [quote comment="329753"]Speaking of ‘Creepy’ and ‘Charlie Manson’ did anyone catch Faraday playing Manson? Whoa! That was creepy! I think he played Manson better than Manson himself could have done.[/quote]

    ******************

    what episode is that in? we haven’t seen him in a while :(

  624. Rita says:

    Lost Horizon and Gen 24:6, I just had a thought along the “Garden of Eden” theory line, Maybe all the Others have “eaten from the tree of life” and/or “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” – and having a baby with someone who has not, (as did Charles) gives the baby some/all of these same characteristics. Maybe ALL of our LOSTies are offspring of Others and need to be back on the island in order to contain the immortality and knowledge to the island. If that is the case, Penny would have to come to the island too. Just an idea.

  625. Duke says:

    [quote comment="329711"]I made it to comment 443. I would have to quit my life to read all of them. Anyway, I just want to say that the four toes statue match the feet Faraday is missing in the season five poster. Coincidence? I don’t think so.[/quote]
    _____________________________
    He is missing his FEET not just one toe! I do believe that the statute has at least one foot but I am sure someone will disagree.

  626. Duke says:

    [quote comment="329747"][quote comment="329741"][quote comment="329694"][quote comment="328963"][quote comment="328852"][quote comment="328263"][quote comment="328246"][quote comment="328232"] He COULD have killed Penny and didnt, he the lowered the gun because they had a baby[/quote]
    Not killing Penny wasn’t really by choice although he did lower the gun. Who knows had Des not intervened if he still would have done it.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    It was the same scene as when he was supposed to kill Danielle.

    Looks like Ben just might be a ‘good’ guy after all, just willing to do ALMOST anything for the island.[/quote]
    ___________________________________________
    Just because he is doing what he does for the island doesn’t make him good. Hitler also thought what he was doing was for the greater good. I do not think anyone would consider him to be good.

    Killing Penny wasn’t FOR the island. IT was for revenge. Not really understanding your coments this week Hammer something wrong. You sick or something? Not really on top of your game.[/quote]
    +++++++++++++=
    Hitler would have killed whether there was a child or not, Ben backed down both times…he didn’t kill Penny…just wanted to, realized he shouldn’t and got a butt whoopin.[/quote]
    _______________________________
    Ok, Hammer, I give up. Hitler was worse than Ben. Ben should knighted, sainted and made a sir for al the wonderful things he has done for humanity. So just because he didn’t follow thru and kill the children makes him good? Your argument doesn’t hold up. Not going thru with killing because of the kids doesn’t make up for all the other horrible things he’s done. I am sure that in Ben’s mind everything he is doing or has done is justified for whatever reason but that doesn’t change the fact that he does some horible things. The end (whatever that may be) doesn’t justify the means. IMO.[/quote]

    I see your point, but there could be another way of looking at Ben’s actions to date. What if the end Ben is working for is the salvation of the planet? Ben could have been doing “Horrible things” to truly Horrible people that were bringing about the end of the world. I will have to reserve judgment on Ben, because sometimes the ends do justify the means. Remember in life there is always collateral damage, the real obligation of heroes is to minimize that damage and achieve the goal.

    quote]
    ________________
    I believe that Ben only kills for the greater good as well. He is trying to prtoect the island but one mystery to me is WHY the island needs protecting. I know he says Charles wants to exploit it, but even so. This island is pretty important in my eyes and I really need that answered LOL. Hopefully tonight!!![/quote]
    _______________________________
    The greater good for who? The island, it’s leaders? I only was pointing the opposite of what people were saying. At this point he is bad, IMO, because everything he has done has directly benefitted him and we do not know the other reasoning behind what he has done. Yeah, he says Jacob wanted this or I didn’t order the purge but the one thing that can be said about Ben that nobody can oppose is that he is a master at manipulation and lying to get people to do what he wants them to do. I think it was Alex who said to someone that he (Ben) gets people to do things and makes them believe that it was their idea. For example, Locke blowing up the submarine. Not Locke’s idea but Ben played him to carry out the act to prevent Jack and Juliette from leaving.

  627. wingman says:

    [quote comment="329745"]I agree that we shoudl reserve judgement on Ben…I think his character is much like Snape from Harry Potter, and we won’t know until the end whether or not he is really good or evil. I think the fact that we come here to discuss that very question (pretty much every week) is a credit to the writers and producers of this show, who are obviously very talented and for now, I am just enjoying seeing what Ben is going to do each week and trying to figure out what his true intentions are…my vote is that he is good…but he certainly has done some bad things…but like I said, I think we’ll just have to wait and see :)[/quote]

    ————————————

    Geeeez louise (Not to single you out LINS, but)…Look, Ben is an awesome CHARACTER…As a CHARACTER, he has one of the best crafted roles in all of television if not media in general, but some of you need to separate the feelings you have for him as a character and the feelings you have for Ben as a person if he existed today…The man is malicious and premeditated in what he has to do…Just because he shows a good side of his personality doesn’t mean the darker side doesn’t exist…You think Jefferey Dahmer or [insert famous psycho-killer] didn’t help an old lady cross the street, or gave candy to a baby ONCE before they did their jacked-up $hit?? Even if you do believe the argument he’s inherently good, it doesn’t wipe the board of all his ACTIONS…This man tried to murder John twice and was planning on a 3rd time even after the monster judged him!! He strangled John to death with his own hands the second time, gave Ceaser hot iron to the chest as a throwaway pawn is some “kitchen-sink” plan to kill John yet again, shot Desmond in the chest and murdered him (from his perspective) just because he was there, but because he’s got a soft spot for kids he’s a good and decent guy?? BTW all this is discussed JUST IN THIS EPISODE (Lets not go thru the laundry list again of all the innocent people he just killed on the freighter, or via his Dharma days, etc.)….

    After talking to Richard, John was reinforced on the task of having to kill his father, but even if the island wanted him to do it, as a person he didn’t have that in him to take human life so easily (Yet that’s who the island wants to lead it presumably)….I don’t need to reserve judgment, Ben is a monster, he may be a monster ultimately on the side of good, but he’s still a monster…The fact that he does maintain a certain level of civility and intellectuality despite his murderous ways makes him such an interesting character, but make no mistakes he’s has done more than enuff to be viewed as ‘BAD”…The more I hear people so casually stick up for him, the more I think some of these people do bad things in the real world and just rationalize to themselves on how they really aren’t bad…

    Ben = BAD =ULTIMATLEY GOOD = STILL PRETTY BAD

  628. bolddeceiver says:

    And there’s the additional likelihood, which someone here has already mentioned, that once Ben saw little Charlie, he had a change of heart, and this goes along with the overall theme of Ben having a soft spot for kids, and that is the reason for his apology, in the context of the story.[/quote]

    Ben’s childhood has led him to have a soft spot for not only kids but mothers as well. This was reinforced twice in this ep. w/ Danielle and Penny. Interesting that the characters seem to be reliving the same event in different timelines.

  629. bolddeceiver says:

    oops first paragraph should have been a quote

  630. Miraks says:

    [quote comment="329776"][quote comment="329745"]I agree that we shoudl reserve judgement on Ben…I think his character is much like Snape from Harry Potter, and we won’t know until the end whether or not he is really good or evil. I think the fact that we come here to discuss that very question (pretty much every week) is a credit to the writers and producers of this show, who are obviously very talented and for now, I am just enjoying seeing what Ben is going to do each week and trying to figure out what his true intentions are…my vote is that he is good…but he certainly has done some bad things…but like I said, I think we’ll just have to wait and see :)[/quote]

    ————————————

    Geeeez louise (Not to single you out LINS, but)…Look, Ben is an awesome CHARACTER…As a CHARACTER, he has one of the best crafted roles in all of television if not media in general, but some of you need to separate the feelings you have for him as a character and the feelings you have for Ben as a person if he existed today…The man is malicious and premeditated in what he has to do…Just because he shows a good side of his personality doesn’t mean the darker side doesn’t exist…You think Jefferey Dahmer or [insert famous psycho-killer] didn’t help an old lady cross the street, or gave candy to a baby ONCE before they did their jacked-up $hit?? Even if you do believe the argument he’s inherently good, it doesn’t wipe the board of all his ACTIONS…This man tried to murder John twice and was planning on a 3rd time even after the monster judged him!! He strangled John to death with his own hands the second time, gave Ceaser hot iron to the chest as a throwaway pawn is some “kitchen-sink” plan to kill John yet again, shot Desmond in the chest and murdered him (from his perspective) just because he was there, but because he’s got a soft spot for kids he’s a good and decent guy?? BTW all this is discussed JUST IN THIS EPISODE (Lets not go thru the laundry list again of all the innocent people he just killed on the freighter, or via his Dharma days, etc.)….

    After talking to Richard, John was reinforced on the task of having to kill his father, but even if the island wanted him to do it, as a person he didn’t have that in him to take human life so easily (Yet that’s who the island wants to lead it presumably)….I don’t need to reserve judgment, Ben is a monster, he may be a monster ultimately on the side of good, but he’s still a monster…The fact that he does maintain a certain level of civility and intellectuality despite his murderous ways makes him such an interesting character, but make no mistakes he’s has done more than enuff to be viewed as ‘BAD”…The more I hear people so casually stick up for him, the more I think some of these people do bad things in the real world and just rationalize to themselves on how they really aren’t bad…

    Ben = BAD =ULTIMATLEY GOOD = STILL PRETTY BAD[/quote]
    _____________________

    Locke- killed Naomi in cold blood (for the good of the island), may not have killed his dad himself, but his dad would not have been killed if he had not DELIBARETLY caused his death

    Sawyer- shot Tom after he surrendered in cold blood (b/c he “didn’t believe him”), killed Locke’s dad

    Jack- let Jin, Sayid, and Bernard be killed- at least that is what he thought- on the way to the radio tower (for the good of the other Losti