The guy in shadow says: “Because of Gunther and you, I am plagued by diseases but I will share my pain.”

One of the “power dudes” says: “We understand how you feel. What we did a half century ago was bad, and what they have done to you since then is beyond any sort of pardon.”

The guy in shadow says: “But someone has to pay for this.”

Hmm…wonder what it all means…

-LostLauren :-p

————————————

Geeeez louise (Not to single you out LINS, but)…Look, Ben is an awesome CHARACTER…As a CHARACTER, he has one of the best crafted roles in all of television if not media in general, but some of you need to separate the feelings you have for him as a character and the feelings you have for Ben as a person if he existed today…The man is malicious and premeditated in what he has to do…Just because he shows a good side of his personality doesn’t mean the darker side doesn’t exist…You think Jefferey Dahmer or [insert famous psycho-killer] didn’t help an old lady cross the street, or gave candy to a baby ONCE before they did their jacked-up $hit?? Even if you do believe the argument he’s inherently good, it doesn’t wipe the board of all his ACTIONS…This man tried to murder John twice and was planning on a 3rd time even after the monster judged him!! He strangled John to death with his own hands the second time, gave Ceaser hot iron to the chest as a throwaway pawn is some “kitchen-sink” plan to kill John yet again, shot Desmond in the chest and murdered him (from his perspective) just because he was there, but because he’s got a soft spot for kids he’s a good and decent guy?? BTW all this is discussed JUST IN THIS EPISODE (Lets not go thru the laundry list again of all the innocent people he just killed on the freighter, or via his Dharma days, etc.)….

After talking to Richard, John was reinforced on the task of having to kill his father, but even if the island wanted him to do it, as a person he didn’t have that in him to take human life so easily (Yet that’s who the island wants to lead it presumably)….I don’t need to reserve judgment, Ben is a monster, he may be a monster ultimately on the side of good, but he’s still a monster…The fact that he does maintain a certain level of civility and intellectuality despite his murderous ways makes him such an interesting character, but make no mistakes he’s has done more than enuff to be viewed as ‘BAD”…The more I hear people so casually stick up for him, the more I think some of these people do bad things in the real world and just rationalize to themselves on how they really aren’t bad…

Ben = BAD =ULTIMATLEY GOOD = STILL PRETTY BAD[/quote]
_____________________

Locke- killed Naomi in cold blood (for the good of the island), may not have killed his dad himself, but his dad would not have been killed if he had not DELIBARETLY caused his death

Sawyer- shot Tom after he surrendered in cold blood (b/c he “didn’t believe him”), killed Locke’s dad

Jack- let Jin, Sayid, and Bernard be killed- at least that is what he thought- on the way to the radio tower (for the good of the other Losties), was willing to let boy Ben die

Kate- murdered more than once

Sayid- killer and torturer

Jin- killed and threatened for his father in law…..

You can’t necessarily just point to Ben and say- he is bad because he killed people, unless you also condemn all our other main characters.[/quote]
——————————–

I don’t mind a strawman argument everyone once and a while, but we’re talking about Ben specifically….More notably in this episode…I’m not suggesting that other characters haven’t done bad things, I’m saying the litany of premeditated malice conducted by one Benjimen Linus supersedes that of other characters…this guy is a systematic killer…Whether it be with his own hands or from his “corporate” suite where he delegates…None of those other characters have even close to the track record Ben has when it comes to dishing out murder…Additionally his mentality is that of a person who treats life as fleeting and marginal by most standards…

Locke:”You just killed everyone on that freighter…”

Ben: “So”

Ajira Jack: “What’s going to happen to all these people on the plane?”

Ben: “Who cares…”

His entire mentality feeds into the premise of his person….

Again I love Ben as a character…Often times I’ll find myself grinning hard, and pumping my fist in the air when he makes a statement or manipulation that I find awesome…He is GOOD CHARACTER, but to pretend like he is equally a GOOD PERSON would be like walking out of a chemical factory praising the smell as if it were roses….All you people who wanna hold on to the premise that dear old Ben is actually a good guy, go right ahead, but I won’t let the inevitability of his ultimate goodness cloud the actuality of his actions…Ben calling Sayid a killer, is the pot calling the kettle smoke monster black…While he does have a definite side of sympathy, the preponderance of the evidence is very much against his GOODGUY wool over your eyes…

————————————

Geeeez louise (Not to single you out LINS, but)…Look, Ben is an awesome CHARACTER…As a CHARACTER, he has one of the best crafted roles in all of television if not media in general, but some of you need to separate the feelings you have for him as a character and the feelings you have for Ben as a person if he existed today…The man is malicious and premeditated in what he has to do…Just because he shows a good side of his personality doesn’t mean the darker side doesn’t exist…You think Jefferey Dahmer or [insert famous psycho-killer] didn’t help an old lady cross the street, or gave candy to a baby ONCE before they did their jacked-up $hit?? Even if you do believe the argument he’s inherently good, it doesn’t wipe the board of all his ACTIONS…This man tried to murder John twice and was planning on a 3rd time even after the monster judged him!! He strangled John to death with his own hands the second time, gave Ceaser hot iron to the chest as a throwaway pawn is some “kitchen-sink” plan to kill John yet again, shot Desmond in the chest and murdered him (from his perspective) just because he was there, but because he’s got a soft spot for kids he’s a good and decent guy?? BTW all this is discussed JUST IN THIS EPISODE (Lets not go thru the laundry list again of all the innocent people he just killed on the freighter, or via his Dharma days, etc.)….

After talking to Richard, John was reinforced on the task of having to kill his father, but even if the island wanted him to do it, as a person he didn’t have that in him to take human life so easily (Yet that’s who the island wants to lead it presumably)….I don’t need to reserve judgment, Ben is a monster, he may be a monster ultimately on the side of good, but he’s still a monster…The fact that he does maintain a certain level of civility and intellectuality despite his murderous ways makes him such an interesting character, but make no mistakes he’s has done more than enuff to be viewed as ‘BAD”…The more I hear people so casually stick up for him, the more I think some of these people do bad things in the real world and just rationalize to themselves on how they really aren’t bad…

Ben = BAD =ULTIMATLEY GOOD = STILL PRETTY BAD[/quote]
_____________________

Locke- killed Naomi in cold blood (for the good of the island), may not have killed his dad himself, but his dad would not have been killed if he had not DELIBARETLY caused his death

Sawyer- shot Tom after he surrendered in cold blood (b/c he “didn’t believe him”), killed Locke’s dad

Jack- let Jin, Sayid, and Bernard be killed- at least that is what he thought- on the way to the radio tower (for the good of the other Losties), was willing to let boy Ben die

Kate- murdered more than once

Sayid- killer and torturer

Jin- killed and threatened for his father in law…..

You can’t necessarily just point to Ben and say- he is bad because he killed people, unless you also condemn all our other main characters.

Ben’s childhood has led him to have a soft spot for not only kids but mothers as well. This was reinforced twice in this ep. w/ Danielle and Penny. Interesting that the characters seem to be reliving the same event in different timelines.

————————————

Geeeez louise (Not to single you out LINS, but)…Look, Ben is an awesome CHARACTER…As a CHARACTER, he has one of the best crafted roles in all of television if not media in general, but some of you need to separate the feelings you have for him as a character and the feelings you have for Ben as a person if he existed today…The man is malicious and premeditated in what he has to do…Just because he shows a good side of his personality doesn’t mean the darker side doesn’t exist…You think Jefferey Dahmer or [insert famous psycho-killer] didn’t help an old lady cross the street, or gave candy to a baby ONCE before they did their jacked-up $hit?? Even if you do believe the argument he’s inherently good, it doesn’t wipe the board of all his ACTIONS…This man tried to murder John twice and was planning on a 3rd time even after the monster judged him!! He strangled John to death with his own hands the second time, gave Ceaser hot iron to the chest as a throwaway pawn is some “kitchen-sink” plan to kill John yet again, shot Desmond in the chest and murdered him (from his perspective) just because he was there, but because he’s got a soft spot for kids he’s a good and decent guy?? BTW all this is discussed JUST IN THIS EPISODE (Lets not go thru the laundry list again of all the innocent people he just killed on the freighter, or via his Dharma days, etc.)….

After talking to Richard, John was reinforced on the task of having to kill his father, but even if the island wanted him to do it, as a person he didn’t have that in him to take human life so easily (Yet that’s who the island wants to lead it presumably)….I don’t need to reserve judgment, Ben is a monster, he may be a monster ultimately on the side of good, but he’s still a monster…The fact that he does maintain a certain level of civility and intellectuality despite his murderous ways makes him such an interesting character, but make no mistakes he’s has done more than enuff to be viewed as ‘BAD”…The more I hear people so casually stick up for him, the more I think some of these people do bad things in the real world and just rationalize to themselves on how they really aren’t bad…

Ben = BAD =ULTIMATLEY GOOD = STILL PRETTY BAD

Looks like Ben just might be a ‘good’ guy after all, just willing to do ALMOST anything for the island.[/quote]
___________________________________________
Just because he is doing what he does for the island doesn’t make him good. Hitler also thought what he was doing was for the greater good. I do not think anyone would consider him to be good.

Killing Penny wasn’t FOR the island. IT was for revenge. Not really understanding your coments this week Hammer something wrong. You sick or something? Not really on top of your game.[/quote]
+++++++++++++=
Hitler would have killed whether there was a child or not, Ben backed down both times…he didn’t kill Penny…just wanted to, realized he shouldn’t and got a butt whoopin.[/quote]
_______________________________
Ok, Hammer, I give up. Hitler was worse than Ben. Ben should knighted, sainted and made a sir for al the wonderful things he has done for humanity. So just because he didn’t follow thru and kill the children makes him good? Your argument doesn’t hold up. Not going thru with killing because of the kids doesn’t make up for all the other horrible things he’s done. I am sure that in Ben’s mind everything he is doing or has done is justified for whatever reason but that doesn’t change the fact that he does some horible things. The end (whatever that may be) doesn’t justify the means. IMO.[/quote]

I see your point, but there could be another way of looking at Ben’s actions to date. What if the end Ben is working for is the salvation of the planet? Ben could have been doing “Horrible things” to truly Horrible people that were bringing about the end of the world. I will have to reserve judgment on Ben, because sometimes the ends do justify the means. Remember in life there is always collateral damage, the real obligation of heroes is to minimize that damage and achieve the goal.

quote]
________________
I believe that Ben only kills for the greater good as well. He is trying to prtoect the island but one mystery to me is WHY the island needs protecting. I know he says Charles wants to exploit it, but even so. This island is pretty important in my eyes and I really need that answered LOL. Hopefully tonight!!![/quote]
_______________________________
The greater good for who? The island, it’s leaders? I only was pointing the opposite of what people were saying. At this point he is bad, IMO, because everything he has done has directly benefitted him and we do not know the other reasoning behind what he has done. Yeah, he says Jacob wanted this or I didn’t order the purge but the one thing that can be said about Ben that nobody can oppose is that he is a master at manipulation and lying to get people to do what he wants them to do. I think it was Alex who said to someone that he (Ben) gets people to do things and makes them believe that it was their idea. For example, Locke blowing up the submarine. Not Locke’s idea but Ben played him to carry out the act to prevent Jack and Juliette from leaving.