The Story of the Oceanic Six

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With what essentially represents a one week hiatus, tonight we get a Season 5 (and general Lost) recap with The Story of the Oceanic Six. It will be all downhill from here given where the show left off last week – Sawyer’s plan unraveling and the injection of our third mysterious group (“What lies in the shadow of the statue?”), so embrace the hiatus and let’s hope that Season 5 finishes off as strong as it has been up to this point.

Episode Promo

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198 Responses to The Story of the Oceanic Six

  1. Jason says:

    Anyone know if this is a one or two hour thing tonight?

  2. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="330970"]Anyone know if this is a one or two hour thing tonight?[/quote]

    Just one hour (and two minutes).

    : ) P

  3. Jason says:

    [quote comment="330973"][quote comment="330970"]Anyone know if this is a one or two hour thing tonight?[/quote]

    Just one hour (and two minutes).

    : ) P[/quote]
    _______________________________
    Ok, thanks!

  4. intolost says:

    So, how many more new episodes of Season 5 are left?

  5. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="330976"]So, how many more new episodes of Season 5 are left?[/quote]

    Three more episodes, four more hours (not including tonight’s retrospective).

    : ) P

  6. stupidmop says:

    I saw a commercial today that said we will see their story in an all new way. Does that mean we are getting new scenes?

  7. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="330981"]I saw a commercial today that said we will see their story in an all new way. Does that mean we are getting new scenes?[/quote]

    The ABC Press release is worded in such a way that it would seem we will see some new scenes. Perhaps footage that was shot, but edited for time?

    : ) P

  8. Jamie says:

    I am almost certain when they say ‘a whole new way,’ they are referring to a way in which they play every old Oceanic 6 scene, in order, perhaps with Michael Emerson making some creepy comments.

  9. Ra says:

    what would be really cool is if they showed it from Richard and the other point of view…how they are viewing everything thats going on…but that would be an episode..not a recap…would be really cool though…but i guess the reason they are so intriguing is because they are so mysterious

  10. lola says:

    [quote comment="330977"][quote comment="330976"]So, how many more new episodes of Season 5 are left?[/quote]

    Three more episodes, four more hours (not including tonight’s retrospective).

    : ) P[/quote]
    ————————————-

    r u sure about that? i thought there was no show next week, then a 1 hour episode following week, then 2 hour finale

  11. Hammer says:

    lola, what is left are epidsodes 14, 15 and 16/17 are the finale.

  12. lola says:

    [quote comment="331004"]lola, what is left are epidsodes 14, 15 and 16/17 are the finale.[/quote]
    ————————–
    SWEET-i wish it would go all summer

  13. Mrs.Awesome says:

    Dont get it…. so is this going to be an episode or a hole bunch of clips and bonus footage mingled together to form a larger mess than this season I mean love lost to death but come on it the first time that im totaly crazii confusedddddd.

  14. Rita says:

    Well, whatever it is we are getting tonight, I’m still geeked for it. Bring it on!!! *g*

  15. LINS says:

    Maybe they will show what we have seen so far for each person, but in a recap that shows the actual timeline, so we can stop guessing what happened when since they left the island and came back…?

  16. Tasha says:

    I am so excited about tonight. I think they are going to show us things that are so obvious and we missed all along. I don’t know. My son has to go to batting cages with his baseball team and I am trying to get out of it because I am more excited about this than the episodes. It’s gonna be GREAT. I can feel it!

  17. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331031"]Well, whatever it is we are getting tonight, I’m still geeked for it. Bring it on!!! *g*[/quote]

    LOL. Geeking in line right behind you!

    [quote comment="331036"]Maybe they will show what we have seen so far for each person, but in a recap that shows the actual timeline, so we can stop guessing what happened when since they left the island and came back…?[/quote]

    Their last “clip show” (the first hour of the season) was anything BUT. We were given a lot of clues, and I hope this will do the same.

    [quote comment="331042"]I am so excited about tonight. I think they are going to show us things that are so obvious and we missed all along. [/quote]

    Hear hear!

    : ) P

  18. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="331058"][quote comment="331031"]Well, whatever it is we are getting tonight, I’m still geeked for it. Bring it on!!! *g*[/quote]

    LOL. Geeking in line right behind you!

    [quote comment="331036"]Maybe they will show what we have seen so far for each person, but in a recap that shows the actual timeline, so we can stop guessing what happened when since they left the island and came back…?[/quote]

    Their last “clip show” (the first hour of the season) was anything BUT. We were given a lot of clues, and I hope this will do the same.

    [quote comment="331042"]I am so excited about tonight. I think they are going to show us things that are so obvious and we missed all along. [/quote]

    Hear hear!

    : ) P[/quote]
    ******************

    I hope we get some other insight as well…since we somewhat know the story of the O6, I think we are getting some new info or we are going to see it through someone elses’ perspective…maybe someone keeping their eye on the o6…Ben? eloise? Widmore?
    -miss

  19. Cherry-missAWESOME says:

    CANT Wait less than one hour and we gonna lostin’ …. dont know what to expect

  20. Cherry-missAWESOME says:

    CANT Wait less than one hour and we gonna be lostin’ …. dont know what to expect

  21. steve says:

    when this season ends I guess I will actually have do some work at work… Bummer!!

  22. ShelbyDee says:

    Have you guys seen the “bonus footage” on the dvd set with the mockumentary on the O6? Do you think they are airing that tonight? The narrator is speculating that the crash was some kind of hoax and presents a bunch of evidence.

  23. steve says:

    So far just a recap. I hope we get something new

  24. da caz says:

    What a bummer!!!! Why even show this???

  25. iowakid says:

    So far I am thinking what a waste of what few hours that are left. I agree with several of the posters that I was thinking it would be looking at the O6 from the angle of Widmer or Mrs Hawkins. But so far I dont think I have anything new. Maybe this last half hour will be better, I can only hope

  26. JZ says:

    the only thing that i caught (which was new for me personally, let me know if this was mentioned before) was that when Ben woke up in Tunisia after he turned the wheel you can see the jacket he is wearing has the name “halliwax” on it….thought it was interesting.

  27. steve says:

    The narrator did confirm that Ben actually went 10 months into the future from January 2005 on island time, and Lodke went 3 years to 2008.

  28. Beth says:

    This episode would have been more interesting if it had been narrated by one of the characters. Or, alternatively, this could have just been used as an “extra” bonus hour before the finale since it served as a recap of the whole season. As it aired, it seemed to disrupt the flow of the story arc.

  29. steve says:

    waste of an hour

  30. Ronnie B. says:

    Why do this? If i knew it was gonna be like this i could of just watched my DVR and not wasted this hour!!!! Next week better rock!!!!!

  31. Ronnie B. says:

    [quote comment="331084"]CANT Wait less than one hour and we gonna lostin’ …. dont know what to expect[/quote]

    So did it meet your expectations!!!!! I think not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  32. Rita says:

    I guess I have to say I was a bit disappointed – nothing new at all. They did confirm that Hawking is Faraday’s mom, but I already thought that. Where were the mysteries revealed that they hinted at???

  33. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331112"]This episode would have been more interesting if it had been narrated by one of the characters. [/quote]

    I think it was. I believe it was Nestor Carbonell’s voice. He plays Captain Eyeliner (Richard Alpert).

    : ) P

  34. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331116"]I guess I have to say I was a bit disappointed – nothing new at all. They did confirm that Hawking is Faraday’s mom, but I already thought that. Where were the mysteries revealed that they hinted at???[/quote]

    I guess those were hints for the casual viewer. Other than Hawking as Faraday’s mum, the timeline for the wheel turns, and the phone call Kate had during her dream, we got nothing new.

    I still think Grampa Ray is going to play a part since we saw him again. If he weren’t a part of the future of the show, they would have left him out of the recap. IMO.

    : ) P

  35. steve says:

    E guess it beets having an idle week. I just wish it had been billed as a recap and nothing more.

  36. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331121"]E guess it beets having an idle week. I just wish it had been billed as a recap and nothing more.[/quote]

    Or an Idol week (as in American Idol). LOL.

    : ) P

  37. LINS says:

    I had forgotten that Ben saw the footage of Sayid on the news talking about Nadia’s death the day he went to hotel and found out how far into the future he had moved. So he really couldn’t have been responsible for her death, could he? Am I missing something?

  38. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331128"]I had forgotten that Ben saw the footage of Sayid on the news talking about Nadia’s death the day he went to hotel and found out how far into the future he had moved. So he really couldn’t have been responsible for her death, could he? Am I missing something?[/quote]

    Could Ben have been responsible for Nadia’s death? Probably not directly (although it is possible “Gabriel” or “Jeffrey” might have I suppose). However, it is also possible that the “Widmore is responsible” is entirely fabricated as well.

    : ) P

  39. LINS says:

    Man, they really brought out all the tear jerker moments tonight!

  40. steve says:

    [quote comment="331129"][quote comment="331128"]I had forgotten that Ben saw the footage of Sayid on the news talking about Nadia’s death the day he went to hotel and found out how far into the future he had moved. So he really couldn’t have been responsible for her death, could he? Am I missing something?[/quote]

    Could Ben have been responsible for Nadia’s death? Probably not directly (although it is possible “Gabriel” or “Jeffrey” might have I suppose). However, it is also possible that the “Widmore is responsible” is entirely fabricated as well.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ********************************

    I remember Ben asking Kill at the butcher shop if Gabriel and Jeffery were in position, or something like that, did we find out who they were?

  41. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331134"]I remember Ben asking Kill at the butcher shop if Gabriel and Jeffery were in position, or something like that, did we find out who they were?[/quote]

    Nope, not yet. Maybe they work at Agostini and Norton. Maybe they are with Bram and Ilana. Maybe we’ll never know! LOL

    : ) P

  42. steve says:

    that was Jill not Kill. Sorry.

  43. LINS says:

    If Widmore knew exactly where Hawking was in L.A., why would he have such trouble finding the island? She had no trouble telling Ben and the others how and when to get there, I mean, that couldn’t have been the first time that the island was visible and reachable since Widmore left? It doesn’t make sense to me…

  44. LINS says:

    I still laughed when Hurley threw the hot pocket…funny every time!!

    Did anyone else notice how Ilana NEVER answers a question? I’m starting to think she might work for Ben…

  45. lola says:

    why couldn’t we have at least 5 min of new footage?

    here is something i thought of tho-we know that rose and bernard were flashing around also, so maybe they were taking shelter in the cave, the “incident” happens possibly in 2007 thanks to Ilana and friends, somehow affecting the folks in 1977, Rose and Bernard die in 1977, they become Adam&Eve-i don’t recall now who exactly found the bones in 2004, but even if it was Rose, so what, b/c miles saw himself as a baby; therefore Rose could check out her own bones.

  46. lola says:

    [quote comment="331129"][quote comment="331128"]I had forgotten that Ben saw the footage of Sayid on the news talking about Nadia’s death the day he went to hotel and found out how far into the future he had moved. So he really couldn’t have been responsible for her death, could he? Am I missing something?[/quote]

    Could Ben have been responsible for Nadia’s death? Probably not directly (although it is possible “Gabriel” or “Jeffrey” might have I suppose). However, it is also possible that the “Widmore is responsible” is entirely fabricated as well.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ——————————-

    i was thinking about nadia’s death too, the only thing is ben gets transported to tunisia, makes his way to town, and happens to see sayid on tv, after nadia was already dead. maybe he wasn’t responsible for her death, but he still could have lied to sayid about widmore being responsible so to convince him to start taking revenge

  47. lola says:

    [quote comment="331141"]I still laughed when Hurley threw the hot pocket…funny every time!!

    ——————————
    that was funny! especially the look on ben’s face like ” wtf was that hurley?”

  48. LINS says:

    [quote comment="331145"][quote comment="331129"][quote comment="331128"]I had forgotten that Ben saw the footage of Sayid on the news talking about Nadia’s death the day he went to hotel and found out how far into the future he had moved. So he really couldn’t have been responsible for her death, could he? Am I missing something?[/quote]

    Could Ben have been responsible for Nadia’s death? Probably not directly (although it is possible “Gabriel” or “Jeffrey” might have I suppose). However, it is also possible that the “Widmore is responsible” is entirely fabricated as well.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ——————————-

    i was thinking about nadia’s death too, the only thing is ben gets transported to tunisia, makes his way to town, and happens to see sayid on tv, after nadia was already dead. maybe he wasn’t responsible for her death, but he still could have lied to sayid about widmore being responsible so to convince him to start taking revenge[/quote]

    **********************
    Oh yes, I agree that he could (and probably did) lie about it being caused by Widmore, but there had been some talk in the past on this blog that Ben had been responsible for her death and I really don’t see how that could be possible…I don’t even think he could have coordinated it, the crash obviously happened before he showed up at the hotel and I don’t think he had a cell phone on him out in the Tunisian desert to call his cronies to murder Nadia who he wouldn’t even have known was Sayid’s wife!

  49. steve says:

    the recap did remind me of one thing that I did not get. Hurley is really upset about lying, but he is totally fine with running over that guy on th beach with a VW bus.

  50. bolddeceiver says:

    Ok so the recap gave me some new thoughts about Jack. Is it cool to post theories here or is that considered spoilerish?

  51. stupidmop says:

    Am I the only one that just saw new scenes? Or did I totally miss a few episodes? (not likely but we do have lost parties here so I may have been a little tipsy the first time I watched them)

  52. Shadow says:

    OK,so I know I’m totally beating a dead horse or whatever the saying is, BUT, I’m going to go back to the fact that John was told to bring the O6 back to stop the time flashes. The narator siad it tonight. He said that Richard Alpert told John to bring them all back to “stop the time flashes”. But just turning the wheel did that. So did Alpert lie to John? Did he want them all back on the island for some other reason? I know Wingman already tried to explain this to me before, but it still bugs me.

  53. Jessica says:

    This episode was a waste to all Lost Fans! We know what the hell is going on already. Quit wasting our time and start answering more questions!!!!

  54. Tasha says:

    [quote comment="331042"]I am so excited about tonight. I think they are going to show us things that are so obvious and we missed all along. I don’t know. My son has to go to batting cages with his baseball team and I am trying to get out of it because I am more excited about this than the episodes. It’s gonna be GREAT. I can feel it![/quote]
    ___________________________

    Um, I am turning the FDW and just forget I wrote any of this LOL.

    I don’t know about it being totally bad. At least we got to watch it straight thru. We didn’t have all the jumping around like we did when we watched the episodes. It was always jumping. Here we got to see it without all the flashing around from here and there and this year and that year. I wouldn’t say it was horrible. Just expected alot more out of it.

    I am more confused than ever.

    What my question is, if someone could please try to explain, is even if Ben DID jump forward 10 months, what exactly does that mean? I KNOW what everyone is saying, so does that just mean for 10 months he didn’t exist or what? Was he flying thru a hole at that time? I get the “going back in time.” I just don’t understand where he existed those 10 months. I already can picture the responses I am going to get to this question, but I don’t know if anyone REALLY gets what I am asking…..I mean with Locke we don’t even know the time he was actually in when he flashed, or do we. Ben flashing just seems different to me. Something doesn’t add up….

  55. Frozen Donkey Jack says:

    this was actually cool as it gave a chronological timeline, kinda. eloise hawking was arch. had to peep carefully to see if there were any reveals on the lamppost station i missed. not really, a lot of stuff is open for later interpretation, that’s probably purposeful. she did say that’s how DI found the island and showed a 1954 military photo. all that means is dharma arrived after 1954, which we already knew. we dont know if the clever fellow who built is was dan, but he stepped into one of the dharma stations (when charlotte was still alive) and stepped out a little while later. we dont know if he went somewhen else, but he might have time travel dialed in by now…

  56. Frozen Donkey Jack says:

    oh and ten months passed between ben turning the wheel and landing in tunisia but not for him. remember widmore’s 53 years was only 4 days for locke.

  57. Rita says:

    [quote comment="331152"]Ok so the recap gave me some new thoughts about Jack. Is it cool to post theories here or is that considered spoilerish?[/quote]
    _______________________________________
    Theories are always welcome – lets have it!

  58. Steve says:

    The thing that bothers me about the flashing through time is the location Jack ends up in after he flashes. Twice now he has ended up on his back in the middle of a bamboo forest. He was not with the crash of 815. Hurley, Kate, and Sayid experience this as well after 316. maybe Jack has been on the island before and he comes back on 815. They O4 end up in entry points much like the Tunisia Dessert is an Exit point. Any thoughts?

  59. Jason says:

    [quote comment="331195"]The thing that bothers me about the flashing through time is the location Jack ends up in after he flashes. Twice now he has ended up on his back in the middle of a bamboo forest. He was not with the crash of 815. Hurley, Kate, and Sayid experience this as well after 316. maybe Jack has been on the island before and he comes back on 815. They O4 end up in entry points much like the Tunisia Dessert is an Exit point. Any thoughts?[/quote]
    __________________________________
    I’m with you. It’s really strange that Jack is lying in the middle of the jungle, away from the crash during the pilot episode. I think there is definitely something significant about that.

  60. Cindy says:

    I don’t know about anyone else, but I missed the entire episode because it was being broadcast in SPANISH!!! What’s up with that?!

  61. bolddeceiver says:

    Thought alot about Jack during the recap and developed some theories as a result.

    1. I think Jack flashed to the Island during the Oceanic crash. This explains his distance from the wreck and his inability to remember the crash. He doesn’t remember b/c he wasn’t there.

    2. After Kate said to Jack “I’ve always been with you,” on Penny’s boat I began to believe that they are Adam and Eve. Just seems like that line means more than meets the eye.

    3. He walks among us but is not one of us. Is Jack somehow an other? Think about the conversation Claire had with the psychic. The exact quote is:

    “It can’t be another. You mustn’t allow another to raise your baby.”

    But what if it was broken up this way?

    “It can’t be an other. You mustn’t allow an other to raise your baby.”

    The island doesn’t seem to have a problem with anyone else raising Aaron as long as its not Jack. I know this is far-fetched and probably way off base, but that’s why its a theory.

    Thats all I got for now. I know some of these thoughts have probably been brought up here b4. If I am repeating my apologies. (Consider it a recap.)

  62. LINS says:

    [quote comment="331159"]OK,so I know I’m totally beating a dead horse or whatever the saying is, BUT, I’m going to go back to the fact that John was told to bring the O6 back to stop the time flashes. The narator siad it tonight. He said that Richard Alpert told John to bring them all back to “stop the time flashes”. But just turning the wheel did that. So did Alpert lie to John? Did he want them all back on the island for some other reason? I know Wingman already tried to explain this to me before, but it still bugs me.[/quote]

    I guess technically the last time John turned the wheel, they flashed to the 70’s and now they’re stuck so maybe bringing them back will help get them out of the 70’s and back to “real time”. I don’t know…

  63. steve says:

    Shadow Wrote:
    OK,so I know I’m totally beating a dead horse or whatever the saying is, BUT, I’m going to go back to the fact that John was told to bring the O6 back to stop the time flashes. The narator siad it tonight. He said that Richard Alpert told John to bring them all back to “stop the time flashes”. But just turning the wheel did that. So did Alpert lie to John?

    ****************************************

    I don’t remember John being told that he had to bring the O6 back to “Stop the flashes”. I remember that he was told that he had bring them back to save everyone they left behind. Richard tells john that he must die in order to get them to come back.

    Did I miss the conversation on stopping the flashes?

    I thought John was able to stop the island from skipping through time by putting the FDW back on it’s axis.

  64. steve says:

    [quote comment="331199"]Thought alot about Jack during the recap and developed some theories as a result.

    1. I think Jack flashed to the Island during the Oceanic crash. This explains his distance from the wreck and his inability to remember the crash. He doesn’t remember b/c he wasn’t there.

    2. After Kate said to Jack “I’ve always been with you,” on Penny’s boat I began to believe that they are Adam and Eve. Just seems like that line means more than meets the eye.

    3. He walks among us but is not one of us. Is Jack somehow an other? Think about the conversation Claire had with the psychic. The exact quote is:

    “It can’t be another. You mustn’t allow another to raise your baby.”

    But what if it was broken up this way?

    “It can’t be an other. You mustn’t allow an other to raise your baby.”

    The island doesn’t seem to have a problem with anyone else raising Aaron as long as its not Jack. I know this is far-fetched and probably way off base, but that’s why its a theory.

    Thats all I got for now. I know some of these thoughts have probably been brought up here b4. If I am repeating my apologies. (Consider it a recap.)[/quote]

    @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

    I like the way you break this down. Even Hurley tells jack that he is not supposed to raise Aaron. I also remember something about an attempt to bring the whole family back together again. Could that refer to the Christians (maybe in more then one meaning of the name).
    This also could be a reference to “Family” or “Tribe” that they need to bring back together. I know this is stretching things a bit far, but it would fit into the whole biblical reference theories that are floating out there.

  65. steve says:

    [quote comment="331149"]the recap did remind me of one thing that I did not get. Hurley is really upset about lying, but he is totally fine with running over that guy on th beach with a VW bus.[/quote]

    ##########################

    Oh one more thing I noticed. I thought I heard the scene wrong before in a flashback episode, but when Sayid turns to leave from the marina, and Ben asks where he is going, Sayid tells Ben that if he sees him again it will not be pleasant for either of them. In last night’s scene, and in a previously aired flash back scene, he says that if he sees Ben or him again it would not be pleasant for any of us.

    Did anyone else notice this change, or an I just too obsessed and making things up now?

  66. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331199"]3. He walks among us but is not one of us. Is Jack somehow an other? Think about the conversation Claire had with the psychic. The exact quote is:

    “It can’t be another. You mustn’t allow another to raise your baby.”

    But what if it was broken up this way?

    “It can’t be an other. You mustn’t allow an other to raise your baby.”

    The island doesn’t seem to have a problem with anyone else raising Aaron as long as its not Jack. I know this is far-fetched and probably way off base, but that’s why its a theory.[/quote]

    Wow. I think you’re on to something here!

    : ) P

  67. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331206"]Oh one more thing I noticed. I thought I heard the scene wrong before in a flashback episode, but when Sayid turns to leave from the marina, and Ben asks where he is going, Sayid tells Ben that if he sees him again it will not be pleasant for either of them. In last night’s scene, and in a previously aired flash back scene, he says that if he sees Ben or him again it would not be pleasant for any of us.

    Did anyone else notice this change, or an I just too obsessed and making things up now?[/quote]

    Noticed, noted and discussed when it happened the last time. You are among the equally obsessed, steve, no worries! LOL

    : ) P

  68. Notfromhere says:

    Hey, can you tell me where i can view the show via stream?

    abc-page doenst work for me.
    something like tv shack would be nice

  69. steve says:

    [quote comment="331211"]Hey, can you tell me where i can view the show via stream?

    abc-page doenst work for me.
    something like tv shack would be nice[/quote]

    You may be able to download the episode in avi format from a torrent site like mininova.org, or from isohunt.com. you will a torrent client like utorrent.exe

  70. wingman says:

    @ steve –

    It’s a simple first-person EDIT…It’s done all the time on TV show flashbacks as to centralize the focus on one relationship as opposed to the varying relationships…It’s only purpose is to filter out what they don’t want the viewers to focus on…In this case the relationship of Ben and Sayid is the one they want you to focus on, so they filter out Jack’s aspect of Sayid’s rebuttal…Obviously if you’re in the alternate timelines zealot faction these words mean nothing to you…

  71. Notfromhere says:

    [quote comment="331212"][quote comment="331211"]Hey, can you tell me where i can view the show via stream?

    abc-page doenst work for me.
    something like tv shack would be nice[/quote]

    You may be able to download the episode in avi format from a torrent site like mininova.org, or from isohunt.com. you will a torrent client like utorrent.exe[/quote]

    naa, i dont like torrent, and streaming isnt illegal in my country.

  72. Ra says:

    has anyone addressed the fact that Widmore is more than likely Daniels Dad..making Penny and Daniel brother and sister..I know they said that he was exiled for being with an outsider…but maybe Elle was the outsider…maybe she got exiled first..and thats how they new each other..from the Island….thoughts? comments?…onions?

  73. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="331103"]the only thing that i caught (which was new for me personally, let me know if this was mentioned before) was that when Ben woke up in Tunisia after he turned the wheel you can see the jacket he is wearing has the name “halliwax” on it….thought it was interesting.[/quote]
    **************
    Didn’t catch that the first time around either…
    -miss

  74. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="331128"]I had forgotten that Ben saw the footage of Sayid on the news talking about Nadia’s death the day he went to hotel and found out how far into the future he had moved. So he really couldn’t have been responsible for her death, could he? Am I missing something?[/quote]
    *****************
    So I am not going to say that Ben is responsible for Nadia’s death, but it seems Ben has shown us that he ALWAYS has a plan and he has an inate amount of information on everyone. What is the source of his info and WHO are his connections in the “real” world…they are obviously all over…finally, how does he have money to travel? It seems he has traveled since we saw his numerous passports…just some unanswered questions…

  75. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="331138"]If Widmore knew exactly where Hawking was in L.A., why would he have such trouble finding the island? She had no trouble telling Ben and the others how and when to get there, I mean, that couldn’t have been the first time that the island was visible and reachable since Widmore left? It doesn’t make sense to me…[/quote]
    ****************************
    I somewhat got the idea that even if the coordinates of the island were located, the Island would not let Widmore come back. Widmore told Ben “the Island wont let you come back.” Maybe there are “others” who the Island wont let come back as well…and why did it let Ben come back…to be judged?

    miss

  76. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331215"]has anyone addressed the fact that Widmore is more than likely Daniels Dad..making Penny and Daniel brother and sister..I know they said that he was exiled for being with an outsider…but maybe Elle was the outsider…maybe she got exiled first..and thats how they new each other..from the Island….thoughts? comments?…onions?[/quote]

    I still believe that Ellie and Charles were siblings, rather than bed-partners. Widmore may be Daniel’s uncle, which would make Charlotte his cousin.

    To me, Mrs. Hawking doesn’t really seem the outsider. I really want the story that shows us how Charles and Ellie “became” Widmore and Mrs. Hawking. What happened to lead them to such different places?

    : ) P

  77. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="331222"][quote comment="331138"]If Widmore knew exactly where Hawking was in L.A., why would he have such trouble finding the island? She had no trouble telling Ben and the others how and when to get there, I mean, that couldn’t have been the first time that the island was visible and reachable since Widmore left? It doesn’t make sense to me…[/quote]
    ****************************
    I somewhat got the idea that even if the coordinates of the island were located, the Island would not let Widmore come back. Widmore told Ben “the Island wont let you come back.” Maybe there are “others” who the Island wont let come back as well…and why did it let Ben come back…to be judged?

    miss[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    I’m thinking that Ben pulled a ‘fast one’ on the island…He KNEW that they would make it back on 316, he just had to make sure he got on 316. But as I am typing this, the island could have made sure he died in the crash…IDK.

  78. Rumblestilskin says:

    [quote comment="331222"][quote comment="331138"]If Widmore knew exactly where Hawking was in L.A., why would he have such trouble finding the island? She had no trouble telling Ben and the others how and when to get there, I mean, that couldn’t have been the first time that the island was visible and reachable since Widmore left? It doesn’t make sense to me…[/quote]
    ****************************
    I somewhat got the idea that even if the coordinates of the island were located, the Island would not let Widmore come back. Widmore told Ben “the Island wont let you come back.” Maybe there are “others” who the Island wont let come back as well…and why did it let Ben come back…to be judged?

    miss[/quote]
    ———————————-

    That is why I think that when Ben “Broke the rules”, he didnt do so by “killing” Alex, he did so by coming back to the island.

    Right before he went to turn the donkey wheel, he told Locke that Jacob “wanted him to suffer the concequences”, and that whomever moved the island could never come back.

    Then he came back. He’s such a liar.

    Good Guys: Whidmore, Locke, Richard, and Christian.

    Any attempt to make Ben out to be the good guy @ the end would be ridiculous….IMO……Much like the arguments from some who frequent this blog and try to make that argument.

  79. FFam5 says:

    I still think Grampa Ray is going to play a part since we saw him again. If he weren’t a part of the future of the show, they would have left him out of the recap. IMO.

    : ) P[/quote]

    *****

    I agree / Also I thought it was odd how the showed the scene where Jack is checking out the Army Photo hanging on the wall at the Lmap Post again. Got me thinking that Grandpa Ray may have had a part in Jughead coming to the island in 1954.

  80. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="331223"][quote comment="331215"]has anyone addressed the fact that Widmore is more than likely Daniels Dad..making Penny and Daniel brother and sister..I know they said that he was exiled for being with an outsider…but maybe Elle was the outsider…maybe she got exiled first..and thats how they new each other..from the Island….thoughts? comments?…onions?[/quote]

    I still believe that Ellie and Charles were siblings, rather than bed-partners. Widmore may be Daniel’s uncle, which would make Charlotte his cousin.

    To me, Mrs. Hawking doesn’t really seem the outsider. I really want the story that shows us how Charles and Ellie “became” Widmore and Mrs. Hawking. What happened to lead them to such different places?

    : ) P[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    Whether siblings or bed partners (I am going with bed partners), it makes sense that she and Widmore still maintain ‘contact’.

    Widmore isn’t ‘allowed’ back on the island whether he finds it or not. I believe it to be true because he seems to have located it at least once and didn’t bother to go himself.

    Ellie has been ‘making sure’ things that are supposed to happen get course corrected to ‘save us all’. Widmore participated in that by helping Dez get his message to Ellie for Dan. It seems that Ellie, Ben and Charles are ALL making sure WHH so that the war can happen. It seems that the two sides think that if they get the ‘right’ people to the island, their side will win. It seems that the only thing they are not sure of is WHO will win this war.

  81. Ra says:

    Good Guys: Whidmore, Locke, Richard, and Christian.

    Any attempt to make Ben out to be the good guy @ the end would be ridiculous….IMO……Much like the arguments from some who frequent this blog and try to make that argument.[/quote]

    -Ben is sinister..cunning..sly…manipulative…a HUGE liar..and an accompliss to many murders…he has a definate jealously about him reguarding the Island..as does widmore and Locke alittle IMO..but I still feel that he is not a Villan…hes not good..or doesnt appear to be..but..its just like this show to take someone..make him so shady and hated…beat him up almost every episode..and then find out everything he has been doing HAD to be done and was for the greater good…its not impossible

  82. Leslie says:

    Something that I noticed last night which could just be a result of poor memory on my part, is when Sun tells her father “I blame two people for my husbands death”…..I remembered her as saying I blame THREE people…leaving me wondering who the 3rd was (probably Jack?) Anybody know the answer?

  83. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331226"]Good Guys: Whidmore, Locke, Richard, and Christian.

    Any attempt to make Ben out to be the good guy @ the end would be ridiculous….IMO……Much like the arguments from some who frequent this blog and try to make that argument.[/quote]

    I think it will come down to the differences in philosophy: Locke vs Bentham (the philosophers not the character played by Terry O’Quinn).

    Does the end justify the means? Does the killing of few save many? Is it evil if you believe you are doing it for the greater good?

    I maintain that nothing is black and white in this show (except the stones).

    : ) P

  84. Ra says:

    i find it interesting that Elle has no interest of getting on the plane…going back to what hammer just said about widmore..he didnt try to go either….

    any thoughts on who are Desmonds parents…if you think about it…weve seen every main characters parents..or parent right?

  85. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331232"]Something that I noticed last night which could just be a result of poor memory on my part, is when Sun tells her father “I blame two people for my husbands death”…..I remembered her as saying I blame THREE people…leaving me wondering who the 3rd was (probably Jack?) Anybody know the answer?[/quote]

    She always said TWO people. (NPLH pt1) I think that as an audience, we couldn’t decide if she meant Ben or Jack, so maybe that’s where you are remembering three?

    : ) P

  86. wingman says:

    [quote comment="331226"][quote comment="331222"][quote comment="331138"]If Widmore knew exactly where Hawking was in L.A., why would he have such trouble finding the island? She had no trouble telling Ben and the others how and when to get there, I mean, that couldn’t have been the first time that the island was visible and reachable since Widmore left? It doesn’t make sense to me…[/quote]
    ****************************
    I somewhat got the idea that even if the coordinates of the island were located, the Island would not let Widmore come back. Widmore told Ben “the Island wont let you come back.” Maybe there are “others” who the Island wont let come back as well…and why did it let Ben come back…to be judged?

    miss[/quote]
    ———————————-

    That is why I think that when Ben “Broke the rules”, he didnt do so by “killing” Alex, he did so by coming back to the island.

    Right before he went to turn the donkey wheel, he told Locke that Jacob “wanted him to suffer the concequences”, and that whomever moved the island could never come back.

    Then he came back. He’s such a liar.

    Good Guys: Whidmore, Locke, Richard, and Christian.

    Any attempt to make Ben out to be the good guy @ the end would be ridiculous….IMO……Much like the arguments from some who frequent this blog and try to make that argument.[/quote]

    ———————————–

    Exactly…this guy is a systematic killer…Whether it be with his own hands or from his “corporate” suite where he delegates…None of those other characters have even close to the track record Ben has when it comes to dishing out murder…Additionally his mentality is that of a person who treats life as fleeting and marginal by most standards…

    Locke:”You just killed everyone on that freighter…”

    Ben: “So”

    Ajira Jack: “What’s going to happen to all these people on the plane?”

    Ben: “Who cares…”

    His entire mentality feeds into the premise of his person….

    Again I love Ben as a character…Often times I’ll find myself grinning hard, and pumping my fist in the air when he makes a statement or manipulation that I find awesome…He is GOOD CHARACTER, but to pretend like he is equally a GOOD PERSON would be like walking out of a chemical factory praising the smell as if it were roses….All you people who wanna hold on to the premise that dear old Ben is actually a good guy, go right ahead, but I won’t let the inevitability of his ultimate goodness cloud the actuality of his actions…Ben calling Sayid a killer, is the pot calling the kettle smoke monster black…While he does have a definite side of sympathy, the preponderance of the evidence is very much against his GOODGUY wool over peoples’ eyes…

  87. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="331237"]… the preponderance of the evidence is very much against his GOODGUY wool over peoples’ eyes…[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    I just look at it like this: We still don’t know what is going on here. We still don’t know if Ben is on the good side or the bad side…but, I feel like the Others have been protecting themselves throughout the history they have shown us. People keep coming to the island and try to do things that the island doesn’t want. So for now I think they are good guys and Ben is doing whatever he has to do keep them protect the good side…therefore IMO he is a good guy. Yes, his actions are distasteful at best…but don’t we call many people heroes that kill bad guys? Just sayin…

  88. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="331234"]i find it interesting that Elle has no interest of getting on the plane…going back to what hammer just said about widmore..he didnt try to go either….

    *****************
    Is it possible that this is why RA told Locke he was going to have to die in order to bring them all back? At first I thought maybe only people who turned the wheel could not come back, but just remembered that Widmore left on the Sub…
    They keep saying you can’t go back, but Locke was not only welcomed back, he was brought back to life!
    Maybe it goes back to only room on the Island for 1 leader and once you are not the leader you cannot come back…confused on this…

    Also, it appeared tha RA was the leader in 1954 but he really appears to be more of a “caretaker” or elder…not necessarily a leader, but he also made it clear he doesn’t have to answer to the leader either.

    I obviously have more questions than answers ;)
    -miss

  89. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="331242"][quote comment="331237"]… the preponderance of the evidence is very much against his GOODGUY wool over peoples’ eyes…[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    I just look at it like this: We still don’t know what is going on here. We still don’t know if Ben is on the good side or the bad side…but, I feel like the Others have been protecting themselves throughout the history they have shown us. People keep coming to the island and try to do things that the island doesn’t want. So for now I think they are good guys and Ben is doing whatever he has to do keep them protect the good side…therefore IMO he is a good guy. Yes, his actions are distasteful at best…but don’t we call many people heroes that kill bad guys? Just sayin…[/quote]
    *********************
    I tend to be on the side that Ben is NOT a good guy nor is he acting on behalf of the island. I am not sure how he became a “leader” of the others as they have not shown us that yet…but I do think the island was not happy with ben and that is why he developed a tumor…then again, I think if the island was really unhappy with Ben I would think it could get rid of him…

    going to ask another question…has anyone else thought it was interesting that two of the people who came back to the island via the freighter (charlotte and Miles) were actually Dharma kids? Could it be that Faraday and Naomi were also Dharma kids? Was there a forshadowing of events that led Dharma folks to get mothers and children off the island?
    Just a thought…
    -Miss

  90. Hammer says:

    Miss lost, I am going with yes on Faraday (as soon as they confirm that Ellie is Ms. Hawking) and no on Naomi. I don’t have a good reason for no on Naomi other than they killed her too quickly for her to have back story like the other 3.

  91. Hammer says:

    Sorry, I meant to clarify the Dan is a Dharma kid. I think that he is Dharma by association. I believe that Ellie and Widmore worked together to help fund DHARMA.

  92. boo says:

    has anyone addressed the fact that Widmore is more than likely Daniels Dad..making Penny and Daniel brother and sister..I know they said that he was exiled for being with an outsider…but maybe Elle was the outsider…maybe she got exiled first..and thats how they new each other..from the Island….thoughts? comments?…onions?

    I still believe that Ellie and Charles were siblings, rather than bed-partners. Widmore may be Daniel’s uncle, which would make Charlotte his cousin.

    To me, Mrs. Hawking doesn’t really seem the outsider. I really want the story that shows us how Charles and Ellie “became” Widmore and Mrs. Hawking. What happened to lead them to such different places?

    I dont understand how could Dan be Charlottes cousin who are her parents did I miss something
    also I missed the coming atractions for next week my dvr cut out can any one fill me in

  93. boo says:

    has anyone addressed the fact that Widmore is more than likely Daniels Dad..making Penny and Daniel brother and sister..I know they said that he was exiled for being with an outsider…but maybe Elle was the outsider…maybe she got exiled first..and thats how they new each other..from the Island….thoughts? comments?…onions?

    I still believe that Ellie and Charles were siblings, rather than bed-partners. Widmore may be Daniel’s uncle, which would make Charlotte his cousin.

    To me, Mrs. Hawking doesn’t really seem the outsider. I really want the story that shows us how Charles and Ellie “became” Widmore and Mrs. Hawking. What happened to lead them to such different places?

    I dont understand how could Dan be Charlottes cousin who are her parents did I miss something
    also I missed the coming atractions for next week my dvr cut out can any one fill me in

  94. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="331244"] Was there a forshadowing of events that led Dharma folks to get mothers and children off the island?
    Just a thought…
    -Miss[/quote]
    +++++++++++
    Yes, I do think there was a foreshadowing!!

    The comic con video is evidence that Chang knew ‘it’ was coming. Charlotte’s babbling seems to indicate that Dan was there in the 77 when Charlotte was young and was told to leave, he likely told Chang too.

  95. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="331249"]
    I dont understand how could Dan be Charlottes cousin who are her parents did I miss something
    also I missed the coming atractions for next week my dvr cut out can any one fill me in[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Not Charlotte…Penny, her dad is Widmore. If Widmore and Hawking are siblings then Dan and PENNY would be cousins.

  96. Hammer says:

    Oh, and no we can’t fill you in on the coming attractions…those are spoilers on this site. :)

  97. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331248"]I dont understand how could Dan be Charlottes cousin who are her parents did I miss something also I missed the coming atractions for next week my dvr cut out can any one fill me in[/quote]

    Sorry, that was my fault. If Ellie and Charles are siblings then Daniel is Penny’s cousin.

    We don’t discuss “coming attractions” or previews on this blog. They probably have previews for next week at ABC.com.

    : ) P

  98. Hammer says:

    Jinx PJ…you owe me a coke.

  99. JZ says:

    I think Widmore and Ellie had a relationship on the Island. Ellie got pregnant on the island then left before she gave birth (would explain why Faraday didn’t get nosebleeds during the flashes). I think she was ordered to leave by Widmore to protect them from the the purge that happens.

    I think Ellie finds out after they left the island that Widmore was having an affair with another “outsider” and had another child (Penny). This might explain why Widmore knows where Ellie is in LA, but don’t have a relationship anymore (yes I know we don’t know when the last time they spoke but that’s why it’s a theory!)

    This would then lead to another theory of mine that Ellie (Ms. Hawking) may be the third party everyone is talking about (Ilana Bram & Co.). I know we see her working “with” Ben leading him to believe he has someone on his side “helping” him, but in fact maybe she’s “using” him to help truly protect the island.

    Did that make any sense? Does anyone have any thoughts? I’m ready to be shot down…for some reason I can’t get away from this idea that Widmore and Ellie had “relations” LOL….help!

  100. Hammer says:

    Makes sense to me JZ, good theory.

  101. Ken says:

    I thought I heard once that there was only going to be 5 Seasons. Is that true, because now I’m under the impression that there is going to be a Season 6?

  102. steve says:

    [quote comment="331235"][quote comment="331232"]Something that I noticed last night which could just be a result of poor memory on my part, is when Sun tells her father “I blame two people for my husbands death”…..I remembered her as saying I blame THREE people…leaving me wondering who the 3rd was (probably Jack?) Anybody know the answer?[/quote]

    She always said TWO people. (NPLH pt1) I think that as an audience, we couldn’t decide if she meant Ben or Jack, so maybe that’s where you are remembering three?

    : ) P[/quote]
    __________________________________

    Remind me how Sun realized that Ben was responsible for Jin’s Death. Sun did not know what Ben did down below the Orchid station with Keemie because she was in the helicopter with the O6 at the time. Only Locke knows what happened. How she put it together with the freighter explosion and ends up blaming Ben needs to be explained to me. Anyone, What did I miss?

  103. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331262"]I thought I heard once that there was only going to be 5 Seasons. Is that true, because now I’m under the impression that there is going to be a Season 6?[/quote]

    Ever since the “end date” was announced (middle of season three), there has always been a plan to end with Season 6.

    : ) P

  104. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="331262"]I thought I heard once that there was only going to be 5 Seasons. Is that true, because now I’m under the impression that there is going to be a Season 6?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++
    Yep…season 6 is the last season.

  105. wingman says:

    [quote comment="331242"][quote comment="331237"]… the preponderance of the evidence is very much against his GOODGUY wool over peoples’ eyes…[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    I just look at it like this: We still don’t know what is going on here. We still don’t know if Ben is on the good side or the bad side…but, I feel like the Others have been protecting themselves throughout the history they have shown us. People keep coming to the island and try to do things that the island doesn’t want. So for now I think they are good guys and Ben is doing whatever he has to do keep them protect the good side…therefore IMO he is a good guy. Yes, his actions are distasteful at best…but don’t we call many people heroes that kill bad guys? Just sayin…[/quote]

    ———————————-

    So murdering Desmond alla a chest shot (What Ben had thought he’d done), then considering murdering his wife, to get PERSONAL revenge against Charles Widmore, that’s a hero?? ()_()That’s for the greater good of the island? Sending Goodwin to his most certain death because he liked the chick Ben was in love with…That’s for the islands’ best interest?? Sheesh, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg (Must I go down the list?)…Again, even if it is revealed in the end that Ben was fighting for this so-called greater-good, it doesn’t excuse all of his selfish and vindictive actions, not to mention his plethora of premeditated murders and psychological torture of others…Ben is most certainly one of the most brilliant characters to ever grace a primetime drama, but as an actual person (by any real standards), he falls quite short of any sort of GOODGUY criteria (Even if his sadistic actions prove fruitful for the island in the end)….Although I’m sure there will be those who defend him to the death, ignoring all but the endgame…

  106. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="331269"][quote comment="331235"][quote comment="331232"]Something that I noticed last night which could just be a result of poor memory on my part, is when Sun tells her father “I blame two people for my husbands death”…..I remembered her as saying I blame THREE people…leaving me wondering who the 3rd was (probably Jack?) Anybody know the answer?[/quote]

    She always said TWO people. (NPLH pt1) I think that as an audience, we couldn’t decide if she meant Ben or Jack, so maybe that’s where you are remembering three?

    : ) P[/quote]
    __________________________________

    Remind me how Sun realized that Ben was responsible for Jin’s Death. Sun did not know what Ben did down below the Orchid station with Keemie because she was in the helicopter with the O6 at the time. Only Locke knows what happened. How she put it together with the freighter explosion and ends up blaming Ben needs to be explained to me. Anyone, What did I miss?[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++

    My take: Sun blames Ben for ALL the circumstances on the island that led to Jin’s false death. Just like she blamed her father for the circumstances that led Jin to the island.

  107. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="331275"]
    ———————————-

    So murdering Desmond alla a chest shot (What Ben had thought he’d done), then considering murdering his wife, to get PERSONAL revenge against Charles Widmore, that’s a hero?? ()_()That’s for the greater good of the island? Sending Goodwin to his most certain death because he liked the chick Ben was in love with…That’s for the islands’ best interest?? Sheesh, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg (Must I go down the list?)…Again, even if it is revealed in the end that Ben was fighting for this so-called greater-good, it doesn’t excuse all of his selfish and vindictive actions, not to mention his plethora of premeditated murders and psychological torture of others…Ben is most certainly one of the most brilliant characters to ever grace a primetime drama, but as an actual person (by any real standards), he falls quite short of any sort of GOODGUY criteria (Even if his sadistic actions prove fruitful for the island in the end)….Although I’m sure there will be those who defend him to the death, ignoring all but the endgame…[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    I did mention earlier that he did some things that got him out of favor with the island…..but yes, at this point I am ignoring the incidental stuff you feel is evil because I DO think it was for the greater good…he is the guy who does the crap jobs for the greater good. I am not saying the next sentence to be snarky: Citing more examples will not change my mind…only the show proving that he is on the side of evil will. :)

  108. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="331282"][quote comment="331275"]
    ———————————-

    So murdering Desmond alla a chest shot (What Ben had thought he’d done), then considering murdering his wife, to get PERSONAL revenge against Charles Widmore, that’s a hero?? ()_()That’s for the greater good of the island? Sending Goodwin to his most certain death because he liked the chick Ben was in love with…That’s for the islands’ best interest?? Sheesh, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg (Must I go down the list?)…Again, even if it is revealed in the end that Ben was fighting for this so-called greater-good, it doesn’t excuse all of his selfish and vindictive actions, not to mention his plethora of premeditated murders and psychological torture of others…Ben is most certainly one of the most brilliant characters to ever grace a primetime drama, but as an actual person (by any real standards), he falls quite short of any sort of GOODGUY criteria (Even if his sadistic actions prove fruitful for the island in the end)….Although I’m sure there will be those who defend him to the death, ignoring all but the endgame…[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    I did mention earlier that he did some things that got him out of favor with the island…..but yes, at this point I am ignoring the incidental stuff you feel is evil because I DO think it was for the greater good…he is the guy who does the crap jobs for the greater good. I am not saying the next sentence to be snarky: Citing more examples will not change my mind…only the show proving that he is on the side of evil will. :)[/quote]
    ***********************

    Wingman, I have stated that I do not think Ben is a good guy nor do I think he was doing things for the greater good of the island…but this is just MY thoughts. Hammer and others are entilted to their thoughts…we are all here to question (and sometimes) answer questions when needed. At this point many things we all say are based on our own interpretations…throwing them out there and then having someone say “agree” or “i don’t think so” is what makes this so fun. I personally think Ben somehow tricked the island as he has so many others…but only time will tell for me…
    These arguments imo are what make this show so great…we all see it very different.

  109. steve says:

    [quote comment="331275"][quote comment="331242"][quote comment="331237"]… the preponderance of the evidence is very much against his GOODGUY wool over peoples’ eyes…[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    I just look at it like this: We still don’t know what is going on here. We still don’t know if Ben is on the good side or the bad side…but, I feel like the Others have been protecting themselves throughout the history they have shown us. People keep coming to the island and try to do things that the island doesn’t want. So for now I think they are good guys and Ben is doing whatever he has to do keep them protect the good side…therefore IMO he is a good guy. Yes, his actions are distasteful at best…but don’t we call many people heroes that kill bad guys? Just sayin…[/quote]

    ———————————-

    So murdering Desmond alla a chest shot (What Ben had thought he’d done), then considering murdering his wife, to get PERSONAL revenge against Charles Widmore, that’s a hero?? ()_()That’s for the greater good of the island? Sending Goodwin to his most certain death because he liked the chick Ben was in love with…That’s for the islands’ best interest?? Sheesh, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg (Must I go down the list?)…Again, even if it is revealed in the end that Ben was fighting for this so-called greater-good, it doesn’t excuse all of his selfish and vindictive actions, not to mention his plethora of premeditated murders and psychological torture of others…Ben is most certainly one of the most brilliant characters to ever grace a primetime drama, but as an actual person (by any real standards), he falls quite short of any sort of GOODGUY criteria (Even if his sadistic actions prove fruitful for the island in the end)….Although I’m sure there will be those who defend him to the death, ignoring all but the endgame…[/quote]

    ***********************************

    There are few in our little tribe that are good. I will start the list, please feel free to fill in the blanks and see where we go.(Ben has been covered already)

    Christian – gets drunk & Kills a pregnant woman in the OR

    Sayid – Kills many people

    Jack – Kills his father’s carrier causing dad to drink himself to death

    Sawyer – Kills an innocent man he thought was his “Sawyer”, then Kills man from tallahasee, he shoots and kills Tom, not to mention the polar Bear.

    Locke – Kills Naomi

    Hurley – Kills Other on the beach with a VW Dharma Bus.

    Kate – Kills step father, and then kills her best childhood friend trying to escape from police. (Not sure about the guys in the bank vault in New Mexico).

    Charley – Kills Ethan.

    Micheal – Kills both Anna-Lucia and Libby.

    Widmore – kills his Other buddy by breaking his neck when caught by Sawyer & co. in 1954.

    Desmond – kills over 100 passengers on 815 when he causes the magnetic anomally in the Swan station.

    Eko – killed many people.

    Eloise – Assumed to have taken part in killing of the Army personel on the island in 1954-ish

    Rousseau – Kills all of her team.

    Richard & the Others – Kill all of Dharma Initiative in the 1982 purge.

    Smoke Monster – Pilot of 815, one of the freighter dudes, and Possible many others

  110. Hammer says:

    I agree Miss lost, great stories and great songs are great because many people interpret them for their own meanings and relate them to their own thoughts. LOST is in that category IMO.

    Wingman, I am not trying to get you to agree with me…just saying why I think what I think.

  111. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="331296"]***********************************

    There are few in our little tribe that are good. I will start the list, please feel free to fill in the blanks and see where we go.(Ben has been covered already)

    Christian – gets drunk & Kills a pregnant woman in the OR

    Sayid – Kills many people

    Jack – Kills his father’s carrier causing dad to drink himself to death

    Sawyer – Kills an innocent man he thought was his “Sawyer”, then Kills man from tallahasee, he shoots and kills Tom, not to mention the polar Bear.

    Locke – Kills Naomi

    Hurley – Kills Other on the beach with a VW Dharma Bus.

    Kate – Kills step father, and then kills her best childhood friend trying to escape from police. (Not sure about the guys in the bank vault in New Mexico).

    Charley – Kills Ethan.

    Micheal – Kills both Anna-Lucia and Libby.

    Widmore – kills his Other buddy by breaking his neck when caught by Sawyer & co. in 1954.

    Desmond – kills over 100 passengers on 815 when he causes the magnetic anomally in the Swan station.

    Eko – killed many people.

    Eloise – Assumed to have taken part in killing of the Army personel on the island in 1954-ish

    Rousseau – Kills all of her team.

    Richard & the Others – Kill all of Dharma Initiative in the 1982 purge.

    Smoke Monster – Pilot of 815, one of the freighter dudes, and Possible many others[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Juliette killed Goodwin?.

    Sun killed ?’s wife.

  112. steve says:

    Add to the list

    Bernard – Kills two or three others on the beach when he shoots the dynamite.

    Arzt – kills himself.

    The Numbers – Kill Hurleys uncle, and Trisha tenaka.

  113. Hammer says:

    Just to add to the discussion…..just because I think Ben is on the good side doesn’t mean I think everything he does is ‘good’. I feel that in the story, he is on the good side. Just like I thought Hawking was Dan’s mother regardless of blood line…’cause the story was saying it was so. Alex wasn’t really Ben’s daughter…but the story said she was. That clear strip was really a runway…but the story said it was. Sooo, I think Ben is a ‘good guy’ because I THINK the story is telling us he is one the ‘good’ team.

  114. steve says:

    RE ++++++++++++++
    Juliette killed Goodwin?.

    Juliete – Killed fellow Other on the beach freeing jack & company – she was later “marked” for it

    Sun – I don’t think so

  115. steve says:

    Anna-Lucia – Killed Goodwin

  116. steve says:

    What are the odds that so many Murderrers would be on the same flight?

  117. flgrl says:

    Steve – that’s quite a list. They’re all looking pretty awful when it’s written out like that!

  118. Miss lost says:

    [quote comment="331300"][quote comment="331296"]***********************************

    There are few in our little tribe that are good. I will start the list, please feel free to fill in the blanks and see where we go.(Ben has been covered already)

    Christian – gets drunk & Kills a pregnant woman in the OR

    Sayid – Kills many people

    Jack – Kills his father’s carrier causing dad to drink himself to death

    Sawyer – Kills an innocent man he thought was his “Sawyer”, then Kills man from tallahasee, he shoots and kills Tom, not to mention the polar Bear.

    Locke – Kills Naomi

    Hurley – Kills Other on the beach with a VW Dharma Bus.

    Kate – Kills step father, and then kills her best childhood friend trying to escape from police. (Not sure about the guys in the bank vault in New Mexico).

    Charley – Kills Ethan.

    Micheal – Kills both Anna-Lucia and Libby.

    Widmore – kills his Other buddy by breaking his neck when caught by Sawyer & co. in 1954.

    Desmond – kills over 100 passengers on 815 when he causes the magnetic anomally in the Swan station.

    Eko – killed many people.

    Eloise – Assumed to have taken part in killing of the Army personel on the island in 1954-ish

    Rousseau – Kills all of her team.

    Richard & the Others – Kill all of Dharma Initiative in the 1982 purge.

    Smoke Monster – Pilot of 815, one of the freighter dudes, and Possible many others[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Juliette killed Goodwin?.

    Sun killed ?’s wife.[/quote]
    **********************
    I think Juliette killed Danny and Sun killed Danny’s wife…

  119. londonboy says:

    I haven’t seen this ‘episode’ yet, but since I figured it was a recap, I thought I’d make a one-time-only visit to this blog on a Thursday (it’s on here on Sunday).

    Anyhoo. Am I right in thinking that Mrs (Ms?) Hawking is the only person to be able to move outside of time without flashing other than Des?

    In Flashes Before Your Eyes, with the ring scene, she is aware when Des does something he didn’t do before. She steps outside of what she presumably did in the original sequence of events. I know it was Des’s consciousness travelling, but they knew each other in 316 and they haven’t met at any other time as far as I remember, so she remembers it too.

    I don’t know if it’s relevant, but I wonder if it has something to do with Jughead/the incident and so is not yet off the island as some have speculated in recent weeks, given her absence (off course, she could be off-island in the same way Dan was off-island).

    And Hammer, I’m not sure what you mean by Ellie/Hawking “‘making sure’ things that are supposed to happen get course corrected to ’save us all’”.

    I’m not saying I disagree, just that I don’t understand – are you saying she’s trying to change what happened via course correction? I thought she was the original proponent of WHH? Give me something to chew on :-)

  120. Miss lost says:

    just like the game clue…sun with a gun on the boat.
    Juliette with the gun on the beach!
    hee hee

  121. steve says:

    **********************
    I think Juliette killed Danny and Sun killed Danny’s wife…

    You are correct!! – add Sun to list.

  122. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331300"]
    Juliette killed Goodwin?.

    Sun killed ?’s wife.[/quote]

    Actually, I think it was Ana-Lucia that killed Goodwin (Juliet was sleeping with him).

    Juliet killed Danny Picket.

    Sun killed Danny’s wife, Colleen.

    (FWIW, some of these “murders” could be considered self-defense.)

    : ) P

  123. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="331310"]

    And Hammer, I’m not sure what you mean by Ellie/Hawking “‘making sure’ things that are supposed to happen get course corrected to ’save us all’”.

    I’m not saying I disagree, just that I don’t understand – are you saying she’s trying to change what happened via course correction? I thought she was the original proponent of WHH? Give me something to chew on :-)[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    First of all course correction IS WHH. Course correction makes sure WHH.

    What I was trying to say was that when Des tried to go ahead and buy the ring that he originally did not buy…she course corrected by pulling him aside and telling him he was doing the ‘wrong’ thing. She was also telling him to let Charlie die because he was supposed to. Another example is she helping get the Losties back to the island where they belong. It was another course correction to make sure WHH…IMO.

  124. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="331314"]
    (FWIW, some of these “murders” could be considered self-defense.)

    : ) P[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++
    I agree!!! Ben is/was self defending the island. LOL.

  125. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="331314"][quote comment="331300"]
    Juliette killed Goodwin?.

    Sun killed ?’s wife.[/quote]

    Actually, I think it was Ana-Lucia that killed Goodwin (Juliet was sleeping with him).

    Juliet killed Danny Picket.

    Sun killed Danny’s wife, Colleen.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++
    Thanks guys….stand corrected.

  126. steve says:

    PJ –
    FWIW, some of these “murders” could be considered self-defense.)

    I Absolutely agree.
    definitely with Anna-Lucia, maybe with Rousseau, Desmond is not self defense, but perhaps manslaughter – he did not know. Arzt was arrogant, and Some have perceived a threat. All the others had a choice, or outright premeditated.

    But Self defense is a man made loophole for legal guilt, but the commandment reads (Thou shalt not kill)
    I figure that is fair considering the religious overtones of the show.

  127. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="331325"]PJ –
    FWIW, some of these “murders” could be considered self-defense.)

    I Absolutely agree.
    definitely with Anna-Lucia, maybe with Rousseau, Desmond is not self defense, but perhaps manslaughter – he did not know. Arzt was arrogant, and Some have perceived a threat. All the others had a choice, or outright premeditated.

    But Self defense is a man made loophole for legal guilt, but the commandment reads (Thou shalt not kill)
    I figure that is fair considering the religious overtones of the show.[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++++
    Another term in the Bible up for interpretation is “eye for an eye”. Just sayin…

  128. PJSander says:

    As long as we’re going through the list…

    Christian – gets drunk & Kills a pregnant woman in the OR

    TRUE, but not pre-meditated, and certainly not purposeful.

    Jack – Kills his father’s carrier causing dad to drink himself to death

    Assuming you meant his father’s career, I think this is a VERY big stretch. Christian killed his own career by drinking.

    Locke – Kills Naomi

    TRUE. Locke would probably tell you it was self-defense *G*

    Hurley – Kills Other on the beach with a VW Dharma Bus.

    TRUE – I think he’d plead self-defense as well.

    Desmond – kills over 100 passengers on 815 when he causes the magnetic anomally in the Swan station.

    This is not murder. I sincerely doubt that ANYONE would even call it manslaughter. He DID, however, kill Inman, though that was arguably accidental.

    Rousseau – Kills all of her team.

    TRUE – but she’d get off with an insanity defense.

    : ) P

  129. wingman says:

    Hammer said:

    I did mention earlier that he did some things that got him out of favor with the island…..but yes, at this point I am ignoring the incidental stuff you feel is evil because I DO think it was for the greater good…he is the guy who does the crap jobs for the greater good. I am not saying the next sentence to be snarky: Citing more examples will not change my mind…only the show proving that he is on the side of evil will. :)

    Wingman, I am not trying to get you to agree with me…just saying why I think what I think.
    ==============================

    Well if you are going to ignore evidence (examples) that strives to prove a point, then that is what it is…Additionally I never said he is on the side of EVIL or that he is inherently EVIL (as in being the devil in human form or something), just that he’s not a GOODGUY, even if he’s on the GOOD SIDE….

    Also Hammer, please, no need to pillow-cushion your posts for me (I’m not as Pollyanna as some of your haters)….I promote vigorous debate, defense of points, and spirited back and forth discussion…I give as good as I take, so no need for preemptives…I thrive on free and unfiltered speech and debate, even if it gets a little heated…That’s passion for the show…

    @ steve –

    The flaw your MURDER-LIST argument, in my humble opinion, is that Ben is a SYSTEMATIC killer, manipulator, and psychological torturer…The other characters who have killed have mostly no prior records of murder or malice (except Sayid who went through an expressed period of making up for his sins)…In the heat of the moment all of us have the capacity for murder, but Benjamin Linus (based on evidence—You know that stuff Hammer can’t be bothered with), has shown a systematic, premeditated, maliciousness that supersedes pretty much all of the transgressions of our other characters…When killing people (or getting them killed via proxy) is an item on a checklist, you have surpassed normal standards of pathos and understanding…

    One item I think is being severely ignored here is that the Smoke Monster (The thing that can steal and manifest your thoughts and memories) basically tells us, the audience, that Ben is planning on killing Locke yet again!! If he attempts this the monster will hunt him down and DESTROY him…Now who in here thinks that Ben is higher up on the island ladder than the smoke monster??????????????? Ben may get redemption of some sort, but to call him a GOODGUY is beyond my standards of interpretation…

  130. Adapa1 says:

    I’m just happy everyone here agreed on how they just Completely wasted an hour of our lives last night. This whole keeping ‘new viewers’ crap has become the bane of my existence. The only thing i learned last night is that turning the wheel transports you ten months into the future. They could’ve pod casted that little tidbit.

  131. Rumblestilskin says:

    Nobody else’s list even comes close to Bens.

    Plus, Bens were, for the most part, all intentional.

    Some of those listed like Desmond killing the people on 815, and Jack “killing his father’s career are grasping at straws.

    See how silly it looks when you try to write out the wrongs of the other 815ers? Bens list is that long all by itself.

  132. londonboy says:

    Thanks Hammer. I get what you mean now.

    I wonder if Ben hearing Locke’s mention of Mrs Hawking shortly after his suicide attempt was the point at which he realised he could go back himself, ie. that was the ‘critical information’ that he needed.

    I still think the moment in 316 when Hawking said Ben was probably lying was more about his knowledge of the Lamp Post than whether she trusts him.

  133. steve says:

    In My Opinion – and just my opinion

    Jack was a stretch
    Christian was a doctor, and he knew better – I stand by this one.
    Hurley was not in danger he premeditated and killed that guy. In the end he had a choice.

    Locke – No danger with Naomi- He killed her in cold blood. could have disable her, but he killed her.

    I’ll give on Desmond he had no idea was happening, but he was the at the root of the crash.

    I give Rousseau self defense because the only actual killing we witnessed was Robert, and he raised his gun.

    My point is many of our favorite characters are less then innocent, and maybe far from “Good”. I really love this show, but I would not want hang around with any of these people.

    But Rose is still a rose!

  134. steve says:

    [quote comment="331334"]Nobody else’s list even comes close to Bens.

    Plus, Bens were, for the most part, all intentional.

    Some of those listed like Desmond killing the people on 815, and Jack “killing his father’s career are grasping at straws.

    See how silly it looks when you try to write out the wrongs of the other 815ers? Bens list is that long all by itself.[/quote]
    _________________________

    I think “Silly” is a little strong and almost stated as an insult – but we don’t insult posts on this blog. I never said Ben’s list wasn’t the longest, or the worst, I simply pointed out he was not alone. Now is that so Silly?

  135. londonboy says:

    The Ben debate could go on forever, but just to play devil’s advocate (literally, in some people’s eyes), when he says ‘who cares?’ regarding the fate of the non-06 on 316, he may well know that the plane is going to land just fine (ie. Hammer’s runway, which he likely knew was in construction if Juliet did).

    As for killing all the people on the freighter, Keemy and, arguably, Widmore, did that. Keemy had, after all, just killed his daughter.

    I think the writers have been playing the ambiguity card ever since ‘we’re the good guys jack’ ever since the end of season 2 and we’re meant to be having these arguments.

    PS. Jack tried to kill Locke at the beginning of Season 4. And I think he’s a ‘good’ guy. But I’m with PJ on the no black and white easy answers on this show. And what was with those stones?

  136. JoAnn Hurley says:

    Always read but never comment until now…….after rewatching Kate’s scene in the market while she thought Aaron was missing, I am convinced that the woman who had him was Claire.The woman said..
    “is he yours?”

  137. Rita says:

    [quote comment="331314"][quote comment="331300"]
    Juliette killed Goodwin?.

    Sun killed ?’s wife.[/quote]

    Actually, I think it was Ana-Lucia that killed Goodwin (Juliet was sleeping with him).

    Juliet killed Danny Picket.

    Sun killed Danny’s wife, Colleen.

    (FWIW, some of these “murders” could be considered self-defense.)

    : ) P[/quote]
    ________________________________________
    Ana Lucia also killed the man who had attacked her and killed her baby. Not really self-defense at that point.

  138. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331354"]Always read but never comment until now…….after rewatching Kate’s scene in the market while she thought Aaron was missing, I am convinced that the woman who had him was Claire.The woman said..
    “is he yours?”[/quote]

    Well it definitely wasn’t Emilie de Ravin. And the woman didn’t say “is he yours” to Kate. Here is the transcript from WHH:

    KATE: A little 3-year-old blond? [Rushes through the store.] Aaron? Aaron? Aaron?! Aaron! [Runs to the front of the store and sees a manager.] Excuse me. I’ve lost my son. He’s 3. He’s a little blond boy.

    MANAGER: Don’t worry, ma’am. I’ll make an announcement. No, no, no. You have to seal off the store. You… [sees a blond woman that looks like Claire holding Aaron's hand, walking towards the doors of the store.] Aaron? Hey!

    WOMAN: Hey, is this your mommy? Honey, is this your mommy?

    [Kate rushes up and picks up Aaron.]

    WOMAN: I found him in the fruit section. I–he looked lost, I was getting heading to make an announcement.

    * * * *
    Keeping in mind that the transcripts are written by fans, I still don’t think that leaves the words too far open for interpretation.

    HTH,
    : ) P

  139. A Slave Of Christ says:

    Anyone notice that Sawyer called “Hurley” by his actual name “Hugo” when they first met in back in 1977… :P

  140. Sassafras says:

    Has anyone started predicting yet who won’t make it out of Season 5 alive? (spoiler-free of course)

  141. lola says:

    i definitely wouldn’t consider whidmore a “good guy”, he certainly hasn’t been good to his daughter or Desmond.
    also, he was perfectly willing to let everyone on the island die in his hopes of capturing Ben. actually he ordered Keamy to kill everyone, right?

  142. lola says:

    [quote comment="331257"]ens.

    This would then lead to another theory of mine that Ellie (Ms. Hawking) may be the third party everyone is talking about (Ilana Bram & Co.). I know we see her working “with” Ben leading him to believe he has someone on his side “helping” him, but in fact maybe she’s “using” him to help truly protect the island.

    **********************************

    i completely agree w/ this, as i posted pretty much the same theory last week.
    I do not think that Ellie and Whidmore are related or had relations at all. Some think Penny and Faraday are siblings. Why wouldn’t we know that Ellie is Penny’s mom? Penny and Desmond have been together a long time-if Faraday was her bro, he would know Desmond from their relationship. Unless for some reason Whidmore took custody of Penny and Ellie took Faraday-seems far-fetched to me.

  143. lola says:

    [quote comment="331367"]Has anyone started predicting yet who won’t make it out of Season 5 alive? (spoiler-free of course)[/quote]
    _______________________________________________

    i’m hoping Ilana

  144. bolddeceiver says:

    [quote comment="331367"]Has anyone started predicting yet who won’t make it out of Season 5 alive? (spoiler-free of course)[/quote]

    I think it would have to be someone who has fulfilled their purpose. Maybe Sayid?

  145. wingman says:

    [quote comment="331367"]Has anyone started predicting yet who won’t make it out of Season 5 alive? (spoiler-free of course)[/quote]

    I’m calling it right now, Sayid will not survive this series, and I hope it’s a dramatic judgment by the smoke monster that ends his life…He’s gone through so much, and ebbed and flowed between compassion and heartlessness…I think it would be fitting to die by the smoke of the monster for not apologizing for what he ultimately became…

  146. wingman says:

    Doggonit bolddeciever!! U struck first!!

  147. LINS says:

    I don’t think anyone else mentioned him, but I think it’s safe to assume that Jin has killed at least a few people in his employment with Paik.

    But I’ll say it again, I think this is all part of the great writing on this show, we still argue every week about whether or not Ben is good.

  148. wingman says:

    All I’m saying is that the smoke monster basically told us Ben wasn’t working in the interest of the Island and he’d destroy him if he tried to kill Locke again…I don’t know what can be more damaging then that for Ben’s goodguy status…Unless you think Ben’s agenda is even greater than that of the monster…

  149. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331386"]I don’t think anyone else mentioned him, but I think it’s safe to assume that Jin has killed at least a few people in his employment with Paik.

    But I’ll say it again, I think this is all part of the great writing on this show, we still argue every week about whether or not Ben is good.[/quote]

    I don’t know, LINS. We saw him when he was SUPPOSED to kill the man and took Bpo Bpo instead. It may well be that he was relegated to delivering watches because all he ever did was rough people up, not kill them.

    I agree about the great writing. Now if ABC could just fix all the crazy, idiotic, irritating, confounding computer-freezing, double-audio playing BUGS on its website, I would be one happy camper!

    : ) P

  150. wallyp says:

    [quote comment="331282"][quote comment="331275"]
    ———————————-

    So murdering Desmond alla a chest shot (What Ben had thought he’d done), then considering murdering his wife, to get PERSONAL revenge against Charles Widmore, that’s a hero?? ()_()That’s for the greater good of the island? Sending Goodwin to his most certain death because he liked the chick Ben was in love with…That’s for the islands’ best interest?? Sheesh, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg (Must I go down the list?)…Again, even if it is revealed in the end that Ben was fighting for this so-called greater-good, it doesn’t excuse all of his selfish and vindictive actions, not to mention his plethora of premeditated murders and psychological torture of others…Ben is most certainly one of the most brilliant characters to ever grace a primetime drama, but as an actual person (by any real standards), he falls quite short of any sort of GOODGUY criteria (Even if his sadistic actions prove fruitful for the island in the end)….Although I’m sure there will be those who defend him to the death, ignoring all but the endgame…[/quote]
    ++++++++++++++++
    I did mention earlier that he did some things that got him out of favor with the island…..but yes, at this point I am ignoring the incidental stuff you feel is evil because I DO think it was for the greater good…he is the guy who does the crap jobs for the greater good. I am not saying the next sentence to be snarky: Citing more examples will not change my mind…only the show proving that he is on the side of evil will. :)[/quote]

    I kind of think that Ben will prove to be just a small fish in a big pond once the “war” starts.

  151. wallyp says:

    [quote comment="331310"]I haven’t seen this ‘episode’ yet, but since I figured it was a recap, I thought I’d make a one-time-only visit to this blog on a Thursday (it’s on here on Sunday).

    Anyhoo. Am I right in thinking that Mrs (Ms?) Hawking is the only person to be able to move outside of time without flashing other than Des?

    In Flashes Before Your Eyes, with the ring scene, she is aware when Des does something he didn’t do before. She steps outside of what she presumably did in the original sequence of events. I know it was Des’s consciousness travelling, but they knew each other in 316 and they haven’t met at any other time as far as I remember, so she remembers it too.

    [/quote]

    ******************************
    I had been kicking this around for a while, and what I think happens here, is that while Des is flashing in to this time period, Eloise is also flashing into this time period from somewhere else(???) so she knows already what will happen.

    Think also to Charles Widmore (who presumably has never time traveled BUT has started having nightmares of some sort…) there is a point in 1996 when Des and Widmore are talking in the bathroom at the auction, and Charles leaves the faucet running, like he knows that the noise of the faucet will lull Des “out” and cause him to flash back to present time. I wonder if 1996 Widmore was aware of this, or 1996 Widmore was actually “the present” Widmore inside 1996 concienceness.

    The only part I haven’t quite grasped yet, is what exactly it is that causes these time conscience flips, and if they can occur to people after they are completely off the island. I think they can, and is a result of alot of the visions that everyone has. (Think Jack telling the doctor in the hospital to go get his father “from upstairs” during his Flash foward… was that really just Jack from the past talking through Present day Jack?)

    Long story Short LondonB, I think everyone has the ability in some form or another, most just don’t know it, and therefore don’t know how to use it.

  152. wallyp says:

    [quote comment="331389"]All I’m saying is that the smoke monster basically told us Ben wasn’t working in the interest of the Island and he’d destroy him if he tried to kill Locke again…I don’t know what can be more damaging then that for Ben’s goodguy status…Unless you think Ben’s agenda is even greater than that of the monster…[/quote]
    *************************************
    This is sort of where I stand on Ben. It makes me think of the black and white stones. He’s meant to be the contrast to Locke. As in there is meant to be two leaders. Locke would have accomplished nothing without Ben, and now Ben can accomplish nothing without Locke… I think it was probably always meant to be this way, but somehow Ben had tricked the island into making him the only leader.

  153. steve says:

    [quote comment="331451"][quote comment="331310"]

    The only part I haven’t quite grasped yet, is what exactly it is that causes these time conscience flips, and if they can occur to people after they are completely off the island. I think they can, and is a result of alot of the visions that everyone has. (Think Jack telling the doctor in the hospital to go get his father “from upstairs” during his Flash foward… was that really just Jack from the past talking through Present day Jack?)
    [/quote]
    *************************************

    I think that mechanism is the exposure to harmonic electro-magnetic field generated during the time skipping. Faraday simulates the field in his Oxford lab, once Des gives him the settings, and exposes Eloise (The Rat) to it. I have been thinking about this idea since Whidmore said he kept the bottle of scotch next to his bed since the nightmares started. I am having trouble understanding the onset of effects of conscious TT without a constant. It seems that the person must aware that they doing it, and aware of their time constant. Eloise (The Rat), Minkowski, Charlotte, that girl in dream state, and possibly Locke’s girlfriend did not have both criteria and had brain aneurysms. Why then do the others i suspect might be going through this not exhibit the symptoms? At least Jack should because he does appear to aware that he is jumping. Worth more thought!!

  154. Scottc13 says:

    [quote comment="331386"]I don’t think anyone else mentioned him, but I think it’s safe to assume that Jin has killed at least a few people in his employment with Paik.

    But I’ll say it again, I think this is all part of the great writing on this show, we still argue every week about whether or not Ben is good.[/quote]
    Jin killed one of the others along with Sayid at the tents. Bernard tried, but he missed. But Bernand also had intent.

  155. steve says:

    Wouldn’t it be bitch if Sayid turns out to Jacob?

  156. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="331462"]Wouldn’t it be bitch if Sayid turns out to Jacob?[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++=
    Yes it would…but IMO Jacob is NOT one of our current characters. I believe the only time we saw him was the little blip in Cabin Fever and he was played by a prop guy….so actually…IMO we have never saw him.

  157. wingman says:

    I think it’s a cop-out if Jacob’s a character yet to be revealed…A hunch ain’t worth jack on lost, but Jack is my hunch (til the wheels fall off)…Faraday is the red herring….

  158. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331472"]I think it’s a cop-out if Jacob’s a character yet to be revealed…A hunch ain’t worth jack on lost, but Jack is my hunch (til the wheels fall off)…Faraday is the red herring….[/quote]

    LOL.

    *If* it is a character we’ve seen, my money’s on Grampa Ray. Ray = Sun ray = RA. The reveal won’t be completely out in left field, but still shocking. So that’s my hunch, that isn’t worth jack. LOL.

    : ) P

  159. Hammer says:

    I like it PJ….they didn’t bring Ray on the show just for a pair of shoes(like I’ve said in the past), that would be cool if Ray was Jacob.

  160. wingman says:

    It would be COOL if it’s Ray?? C’mon we ain’t seen Ray for more then 1 hot-second and all of a sudden it’s cool if Ray is Jacob? So Jacob is in a southern California retirement home and not stuck in some ungodly time-loop anomaly?? LMAO…Unless it’s fleshed out awesomely, Ray being Jacob just doesn’t move me 1 bit…It has to be right under or noses so it’s shocks us to the core…Remember…

    Pickett:”Shepherd wasn’t even on Jacob’s list…”

    LOL, Yeah that’s enuff for me, for now…

  161. bolddeceiver says:

    [quote comment="331472"]I think it’s a cop-out if Jacob’s a character yet to be revealed…A hunch ain’t worth jack on lost, but Jack is my hunch (til the wheels fall off)…Faraday is the red herring….[/quote]

    This makes some sense to me. Claire and Christian are the only ones we’ve seen be comfortable in Jacob’s cabin. Seems to me that its a family affair.

  162. bolddeceiver says:

    [quote comment="331472"]I think it’s a cop-out if Jacob’s a character yet to be revealed…A hunch ain’t worth jack on lost, but Jack is my hunch (til the wheels fall off)…Faraday is the red herring….[/quote]

    This makes some sense to me. Claire and Christian are the only ones we’ve seen be comfortable in Jacob’s cabin. Seems to me that its a family affair.

  163. lola says:

    [quote comment="331478"]I like it PJ….they didn’t bring Ray on the show just for a pair of shoes(like I’ve said in the past), that would be cool if Ray was Jacob.[/quote]
    *******************************************************

    sorry hammer, but i would bet against this. i did originally think the whole scene with ray was odd. my first thought while watching it was that jack was going to invite ray to come with him to the island. i do think ray was only about the shoes.

  164. LINS says:

    [quote comment="331472"]I think it’s a cop-out if Jacob’s a character yet to be revealed…A hunch ain’t worth jack on lost, but Jack is my hunch (til the wheels fall off)…Faraday is the red herring….[/quote]

    I don’t know, I think Jacob will be someone new, but he’ll end up being the glue that holds all the Losties together. You know, in the first few seasons, we saw all those flashbacks and they didn’t just tell us about each individual person, they gave us clues about how the whole group was connected. I think once we meet Jacob, we’ll understand better why all these seemingly random people are really connected and hopefully why!

  165. intolost says:

    The list..

    Sun….relationship with her “English teacher” got him killed.

    Jin…did he just beat people up for Paik or did he kill anyone? I can’t remember.

    Jules….recruitment to the Others got hubby (ex-hubby) hit and killed by a bus.

    Ana Lucia had a baby????? HUH?????? Fill me in, I don’t remember that one.

    Also, father issues. Every single character has father issues. Seems pretty significant. Is the island meant to be some sort of “father” in their lives? Christian theme? They’re all having/wanting to retun to their Father via personal test of faith? Let’s see…

    Jack….broken/rocky relationship with Christian.

    Kate…blew up abusive stepfather.

    Hurley….abandoned by dad at age 10, dad came back when he won the lottery.

    Locke….evil father, abaondoned him, came back and stole his kidney, tried to kill him.

    Sawyer…father committed suicide.

    Jin…father too ashamed to be around due to Jin’s mother.

    Sun….well, we know Paik.

    Sayid….father tried to make him kill his pet chicken.

    Ben…well, we know Roger Linus.

    Miles…Dr. Candle/Hallowax abandoned him. More to find out on this one I think.

    Faraday…Hmmm….don’t know yet.

    Claire…abandoned by Christian. Or now reunited?

    CS Lewis…left island with mom never saw dad again.

    Aaron…abandoned by father.

    Penny…well, we know Widmore.

    Des…Well, father-in-law is Widmore.

    Jules…Well, don’t know. Hmmm…maternal issue? All the pregnant women on island lose their babies.

    Just a thought.

  166. intolost says:

    Who’s Ray?

  167. intolost says:

    Oh, Ray is Jack’s gramps right? Got it.

  168. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331525"]Ana Lucia had a baby????? HUH?????? Fill me in, I don’t remember that one.

    Kate…blew up abusive stepfather.

    Sayid….father tried to make him kill his pet chicken.
    [/quote]
    Ana Lucia was pregnant, and when shot by a perp, her unborn child died.

    Kate blew up what she THOUGHT was her abusive step-father, but then learned he was actually her biological father.

    A man (we presume is Sayid’s father) tried to make a boy (we presume was Sayid’s brother) kill a chicken. SayidBoy did it voluntarily so that the other boy did not have to.

  169. lola says:

    [quote comment="331525"]The list..

    Jin…father too ashamed to be around due to Jin’s mother.

    ——————————————–

    i got the impression that Jin was ashamed of his “lowly” fisherman father. I thought Jin’s mom took off on them.

  170. intolost says:

    Yes, you guys are right. Thanks PJ and lola.

    BTW will we have to wait until January again for Season 6. Sigh….What about a LOST movie? Anyone heard anything on that?

  171. lola says:

    [quote comment="331609"]Yes, you guys are right. Thanks PJ and lola.

    BTW will we have to wait until January again for Season 6. Sigh….What about a LOST movie? Anyone heard anything on that?[/quote]

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    i was wondering when season 6 started also. i haven’t heard anything about a movie, but i’d totally go see it!

  172. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331609"]BTW will we have to wait until January again for Season 6. Sigh….What about a LOST movie? Anyone heard anything on that?[/quote]

    I am not sure that we have heard anything official lately, but I believe the plan is “early 2010″ for the beginning of season six. For season five, “early 2009″ meant January, but for a while, they were saying February.

    Not much help there, sorry.

    : ) P

  173. Rumblestilskin says:

    [quote comment="331473"][quote comment="331472"]I think it’s a cop-out if Jacob’s a character yet to be revealed…A hunch ain’t worth jack on lost, but Jack is my hunch (til the wheels fall off)…Faraday is the red herring….[/quote]

    LOL.

    *If* it is a character we’ve seen, my money’s on Grampa Ray. Ray = Sun ray = RA. The reveal won’t be completely out in left field, but still shocking. So that’s my hunch, that isn’t worth jack. LOL.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ———————————————-

    Forgive me if Im slow, but has anyone pointed out that Richard’s innitials are RA.

    Seems pretty simple, but I havnt heard anyone say it B4

  174. Rita says:

    [quote comment="331636"][quote comment="331473"][quote comment="331472"] [/quote]
    [/quote]
    Forgive me if Im slow, but has anyone pointed out that Richard’s innitials are RA.

    Seems pretty simple, but I havnt heard anyone say it B4[/quote]
    __________________________________________
    In the past, we usually all refered to Richard Alpert as Captain Eyeliner, or Guyliner, but pretty much since they showed the statue, everyone has been calling him RA – the connection to the ancient Egyptian god not missed. Someone on another blog mentioned that this seems to be the trend on several other blogs as well. I guess great minds really do think alike!

  175. Rumblestilskin says:

    Thanks 4 the response. maybe its just so obvious that it cant mean that though………………But if that turns out 2B the case, then I’ll concider myself 2B super smart : )

  176. sector7 says:

    After re-watching LADOJB I see how the coming war is shaping up. Widmore’s army consists of the losties. Locke is Widmore’s general. Ben has always just been a thorn in Widmore’s side and now he will be Locke’s assassin, basically on Widmore’s side. Illana and Bram are on the other side — and not sure who their leader is yet.

  177. ShelbyDee says:

    Totally off any topic – where can one find online this season’s Lost episodes? I see that the last four are available at ABC.com, but can you find the previous ones somewhere else?

  178. intolost says:

    I C UR, I C UB 2 smart 4me!

  179. intolost says:

    All seasons are still on abc site. Just click on the season you want. Use the up and down arrows.

    BTW—Whatever happened with the Fantasy Dark UFO? Did that go by the wayside?

  180. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="331660"]BTW—Whatever happened with the Fantasy Dark UFO? Did that go by the wayside?[/quote]

    They’re still running it, but it is always difficult to find where they post the results each week. I know I started out strong in the first couple of weeks and then took a big ole nosedive and haven’t recovered!

    They don’t make it easy to find the results, but the best way is to go to

    http://darkufo.blogspot.com/

    Hit search (top right of the screen) and put LOST, fantasy, league, week, and the episode number in the search box. That should pull up the results from that week. They haven’t posted SLiH results (as far as I can find) yet.

    Good luck,
    : ) P

  181. Locke is Jacob says:

    Enjoyed watching the events of the O6 play out in a more fluid manner. Glad they confirmed the Hawking/Faraday theory, now we just need to see who else is in that bloodline. I agree with everyone that feels the Shepherd blood line is crucial as well. Boone said it best to John, “You need to get the family back together”… or something like that.

    The good/evil debate has not and will not ever be finite. The shades of grey between the main characters “Daddy Issues” and “ability to kill” (in cold blood or self defense) will be a constant theme and struggle throughout this series. I think whoever mentioned the stones as the only black / white is right on.

    Backgammon – Black and White
    Risk – Shades of grey
    (Not sure why I put this in… I’m just thinking out loud)

    Sun could have also killed her “English Teacher”… he was holding the pearls.

    The smoke monster also killed Mr. Eco

    Also, When Herley confronts his imaginary friend Dave about not being the the Polaroid…he blames it on “Photoshop” and ask if he really thinks they blew up the “Death Star”

  182. wallyp says:

    I’d hate to think that this “special” CONFIRMED anything. Yes they said (very casually) that Hawking was Daniel Faradays mother, but is that even anything worth noting? Is this special legit, or can we put it in the same cannon category as all of those “enhanced” episodes.

    BTW, I hate enhanced episodes. Is it next Wedensday yet?

  183. wallyp says:

    [quote comment="331478"]I like it PJ….they didn’t bring Ray on the show just for a pair of shoes(like I’ve said in the past), that would be cool if Ray was Jacob.[/quote]
    :)

    Hammer, I definately gotta side with Wingman on this one. I think it would be more like the opposite of cool if Ray was Jacob. Still though, I feel you in there being more significance to him than just the shoes. It’s hard to tell, Grampa Ray seemed like he was on a different planet to me when Jack visited him. Sort of fell into the whole 316 episode having this weird vibe, like it wasn’t really happening, Maybe it was just me, but that whole episode felt that way… Ray was no exception, like his mind was elsewhere. I think he will play into the story in some way (can’t forget about the WATCH too!) but no way is he Jacob.

    …”Hey, is that Grampa Ray?!”

  184. Hammer says:

    [quote comment="332061"][quote comment="331478"]I like it PJ….they didn’t bring Ray on the show just for a pair of shoes(like I’ve said in the past), that would be cool if Ray was Jacob.[/quote]
    :)

    Hammer, I definately gotta side with Wingman on this one. I think it would be more like the opposite of cool if Ray was Jacob. Still though, I feel you in there being more significance to him than just the shoes. It’s hard to tell, Grampa Ray seemed like he was on a different planet to me when Jack visited him. Sort of fell into the whole 316 episode having this weird vibe, like it wasn’t really happening, Maybe it was just me, but that whole episode felt that way… Ray was no exception, like his mind was elsewhere. I think he will play into the story in some way (can’t forget about the WATCH too!) but no way is he Jacob.

    …”Hey, is that Grampa Ray?!”[/quote]
    +++++++++++++++++
    Cool, difference of opinion. I think it would be cool because it would tie in the family theory that someone brought up. Ray(if he was ever on the island), Christian, Jack, Claire, Aaron…(is Kate preg. with Jack’s kid?)….

  185. lostjeff says:

    When does Ben give Ms. Hawkins Lock’s suicide note so she can give it to Jack?

  186. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="331625"][quote comment="331609"]BTW will we have to wait until January again for Season 6. Sigh….What about a LOST movie? Anyone heard anything on that?[/quote]

    I am not sure that we have heard anything official lately, but I believe the plan is “early 2010″ for the beginning of season six. For season five, “early 2009″ meant January, but for a while, they were saying February.

    Not much help there, sorry.

    : ) P[/quote]
    ++++++++++
    Right and it was supposed to air in Early Feb. this year so there were no breaks. They didn’t plan that out to well now did they. Stupid TV execs.

  187. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="331514"][quote comment="331472"]I think it’s a cop-out if Jacob’s a character yet to be revealed…A hunch ain’t worth jack on lost, but Jack is my hunch (til the wheels fall off)…Faraday is the red herring….[/quote]

    I don’t know, I think Jacob will be someone new, but he’ll end up being the glue that holds all the Losties together. You know, in the first few seasons, we saw all those flashbacks and they didn’t just tell us about each individual person, they gave us clues about how the whole group was connected. I think once we meet Jacob, we’ll understand better why all these seemingly random people are really connected and hopefully why![/quote]
    +++++++++
    I don’t see it as a copout at all if they reveal him to be a new character. That has been a major part of the story-telling all along; introducing new characters with new motives, new faults and new talents. Kinda like this blog. I would be disappointed if it were a character we knew already. JMO.

    I saw the S4 premier the other day again and thought that the other patient that saw Charlie outside the mental hospital, along with Hurley, could have possibly been Jacob. Maybe Jacob has been hiding in the background all along, like the man at the beach with Locke or the man at Kate’s trial or the Dharma man at the barracks, we just haven’t seen him.

  188. lost4ever says:

    [quote comment="331852"]I’d hate to think that this “special” CONFIRMED anything. Yes they said (very casually) that Hawking was Daniel Faradays mother, but is that even anything worth noting? Is this special legit, or can we put it in the same cannon category as all of those “enhanced” episodes.

    BTW, I hate enhanced episodes. Is it next Wedensday yet?[/quote]
    For me, it was enough and I’m gonna see Eloise as Faraday’s mother or Daniel Hawking.:) But that’s just me.

  189. LINS says:

    [quote comment="332090"][quote comment="331514"][quote comment="331472"]I think it’s a cop-out if Jacob’s a character yet to be revealed…A hunch ain’t worth jack on lost, but Jack is my hunch (til the wheels fall off)…Faraday is the red herring….[/quote]

    I don’t know, I think Jacob will be someone new, but he’ll end up being the glue that holds all the Losties together. You know, in the first few seasons, we saw all those flashbacks and they didn’t just tell us about each individual person, they gave us clues about how the whole group was connected. I think once we meet Jacob, we’ll understand better why all these seemingly random people are really connected and hopefully why![/quote]
    +++++++++
    I don’t see it as a copout at all if they reveal him to be a new character. That has been a major part of the story-telling all along; introducing new characters with new motives, new faults and new talents. Kinda like this blog. I would be disappointed if it were a character we knew already. JMO.

    I saw the S4 premier the other day again and thought that the other patient that saw Charlie outside the mental hospital, along with Hurley, could have possibly been Jacob. Maybe Jacob has been hiding in the background all along, like the man at the beach with Locke or the man at Kate’s trial or the Dharma man at the barracks, we just haven’t seen him.[/quote]

    ************************
    That’s what I’m thinking, we’re going to see that he was really there all along, you know?

  190. Leslie says:

    Hi everyone. I love the show and really enjoy reading this blog. I am very interested in the running conversation about who is the good/bad guy, Ben or Widmore. I have always held the opinion that they are both bad guys who each completely believe that they are right and the end justifies the means. Also, regarding “who is Jacob”. I guess I won’t have too many people in my camp regarding this one, but I never believed that there was a Jacob. Richard Alpert (whomever he may be) has always been in charge; he periodically allows mere mortals to THINK they are in charge and JACOB is just his way of keeping everyone in line. You know like “don’t blame me, that was Jacob’s decision”. Can’t wait for tonight’s episode.

  191. iowakid says:

    In many ways I agree with Leslie Post #190 I think both Ben and Widmore are bad people one maybe not as bad as the other. I think Jacob or Richard are the good guys that lets the bad people make mistakes then corrects that mistake or lets the bad person fall. In the end I think Jacob is Jacob, just who is he, is what we do not know yet. I do not think he is any one what we have seen. I think tonight we will see a lot of the future laid out for us. Since this is a no spoiler site I will say nothing more on that. I like many of you do alot of reading but little posting.

  192. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="332146"]I never believed that there was a Jacob. Richard Alpert (whomever he may be) has always been in charge; he periodically allows mere mortals to THINK they are in charge and JACOB is just his way of keeping everyone in line. You know like “don’t blame me, that was Jacob’s decision”. Can’t wait for tonight’s episode.[/quote]

    I agree with you on this Leslie and have said so in the past (and you are right, not many people agree with us!). To me, Jacob is the island’s “god” – an imaginary being whose presence explains the heretofore unexplained. It is similar to how the Ancient Egyptians, Ancient Greeks, Ancient Romans, Native Americans and other cultures created gods to explain the sunrise, the change in seasons, and other questions to which science had not yet determined the answers.

    I found that several times in the last few episodes, one character has done something because “Jacob said so” an the other character looked shocked but didn’t question. Ben said, “Because Jacob said so,” to Widmore, who can’t say, “No he didn’t,” because Widmore can no more communicate with Jacob than Ben can. Neither can call the other’s bluff without giving up his own hand.

    This doesn’t explain the prop-guy in the rocking chair, or the “help me” heard in the cabin, but I suppose Alpert or Christian could have rigged that stuff. *G*

    : ) P

  193. wingman says:

    [quote comment="332090"][quote comment="331514"][quote comment="331472"]I think it’s a cop-out if Jacob’s a character yet to be revealed…A hunch ain’t worth jack on lost, but Jack is my hunch (til the wheels fall off)…Faraday is the red herring….[/quote]

    I don’t know, I think Jacob will be someone new, but he’ll end up being the glue that holds all the Losties together. You know, in the first few seasons, we saw all those flashbacks and they didn’t just tell us about each individual person, they gave us clues about how the whole group was connected. I think once we meet Jacob, we’ll understand better why all these seemingly random people are really connected and hopefully why![/quote]
    +++++++++
    I don’t see it as a copout at all if they reveal him to be a new character. That has been a major part of the story-telling all along; introducing new characters with new motives, new faults and new talents. Kinda like this blog. I would be disappointed if it were a character we knew already. JMO.

    I saw the S4 premier the other day again and thought that the other patient that saw Charlie outside the mental hospital, along with Hurley, could have possibly been Jacob. Maybe Jacob has been hiding in the background all along, like the man at the beach with Locke or the man at Kate’s trial or the Dharma man at the barracks, we just haven’t seen him.[/quote]

    ————————————

    Well I’m just going from the perspective that the creators had “everything” (atleast a large percentage of things) figured out from the start…So, if they just pull the Jacob reveal from outta thin air (like it being Gramps Ray or some un-named character yet to be revealed at this point), I don’t think it’ll have the same grand impact we’ve all been waiting for…Honestly it kinda devalues it a bit for me because you can MORE EASILY make Jacob some new character than keep it intertwined with the current characters…

    Now that’s not to say that I won’t be amazed by whomever “Jacob” is if is revealed and explained amazingly, but I think the impact is quite heavier if it’s someone that’s been right under our noses all along…

  194. PJSander says:

    [quote comment="332173"]Honestly it kinda devalues it a bit for me because you can MORE EASILY make Jacob some new character than keep it intertwined with the current characters…

    Now that’s not to say that I won’t be amazed by whomever “Jacob” is if is revealed and explained amazingly, but I think the impact is quite heavier if it’s someone that’s been right under our noses all along…[/quote]

    So, like Aaron, maybe?

    : ) P

  195. wingman says:

    @PJ – I’m more “cool” with that than I’ll ever be with Grampaw Ray, who’s somehow slapping retirement home nurses’ bums and at the same time is trapped in a time anomaly…Aaron makes far more sense, but I’m still leaning Jack…Call it the main-character power…You don’t make someone the main character for 4 seasons and just marginalize him in S5…I think that might be a ruse to make sleep on him a bit now that we’re near the end (Not that this is the only reason i think it’s Jack, there’s tons of $hit that makes me believe that, him never being on Jacob’s list being one of them)…But I reiterate, Grampaw Ray just seems quite lame to be Jacob at this point…

  196. wingman says:

    *I think that might be a ruse to make US sleep on him…

  197. That was the episode that made it all clear to me. However, some new scenes would have been better. The episode has only scenes we saw from the previous episodes of Lost with just an explaining narrative voice-over.

  198. xboxkiller says:

    This episode was a waste to all Lost Fans! We know what the hell is going on already. Quit wasting our time and start answering more questions!!!!

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